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View Full Version : Would you say Mauresmo choked against Serena?


BreakPoint
11-14-2004, 06:22 PM
Mauresmo was up a set and a break in the 2nd when she double-faulted on break point to give Serena back the break. She then ends up losing the tiebreak in the 2nd. In the third, she fails to convert on 12 straight break chances, going 0 for 12. Would you say it was another case of Mauresmo choking again in a big match? She had won all of her other three matches easily in straight sets (1 and 0, 3 and 2, 5 and 4).

Too bad as I really wanted to she her beat Serena. :(

The tennis guy
11-14-2004, 06:32 PM
I am just sick and tired of people throwing CHOKE around whenever someone lost one break advantage. People who know about women's tennis know one break in women's tennis is almost nothing.

CHOKE is someone who gives the match away. Did Mauresmo give the match away? Only if you want her to win badly.

BreakPoint
11-14-2004, 06:45 PM
It wasn't just this one match. Look at her record throughout her career, especially in big matches and in Grand Slams.

She also crushed all of her opponents in previous rounds. Once she got to the semis, I think nerves or something set in. Perhaps she just started thinking too much. Anyway, she's got a great game and I wish her all the best in the future.

ty slothrop
11-14-2004, 07:13 PM
0 for 12 on break points in the third set speaks for itself. did you see the way she stormed off the court? she knew she choked it away

Phil
11-14-2004, 07:18 PM
I am just sick and tired of people throwing CHOKE around whenever someone lost one break advantage. People who know about women's tennis know one break in women's tennis is almost nothing.

CHOKE is someone who gives the match away. Did Mauresmo give the match away? Only if you want her to win badly.

Okay, but what if she IS a choker? What other word would you prefer? If you know anything about her, you know that she didn't only give that one match away.[/list]

Angentunderfire38
11-14-2004, 07:29 PM
I wouldn't say it was an absolute choke but she choke part of the 2nd and 3rd sets. Mauresmo has choked in practically every slam she played and she just did it again.

The tennis guy
11-14-2004, 08:13 PM
It wasn't just this one match. Look at her record throughout her career, especially in big matches and in Grand Slams.

I thought you are asking about this match. I admit she got nervous in big matches before. She played pretty well today and at Wimbledon against Serena as well. Serena played even better today than she did at Wimbledon semi this year.


She also crushed all of her opponents in previous rounds. Once she got to the semis, I think nerves or something set in. Perhaps she just started thinking too much. Anyway, she's got a great game and I wish her all the best in the future.


Maybe you can give her benefit of doubt that maybe opponents in semi are tougher than previous rounds.

Her strokes are very long. It can go wrong in tight situations. She need to shorten her swing a little bit on faster courts.

The tennis guy
11-14-2004, 08:15 PM
0 for 12 on break points in the third set speaks for itself. did you see the way she stormed off the court? she knew she choked it away

Of those 12 break points, 10 was winners from Serena.

JohnThomas1
11-14-2004, 08:27 PM
I reckon she suffered the big apple. The commentators in my part of the world picked it up from 5-2 in the first. Apparently she could have cemented the number one ranking or thereabouts?

bigserving
11-14-2004, 09:21 PM
I find it ironic that month after month, posters on this board say that they don't like Serena because she never gives credit to her opponents.

Serena wins a hard fought match in a huge event and all that people want to say is that Mauresmo choked.

Hmm. Irony, or hypocrisy?

BreakPoint
11-14-2004, 09:36 PM
Of those 12 break points, 10 was winners from Serena.

You can't really conclude anything from that stat because it could also mean that Mauresmo was playing too tentative on the break points and didn't go for the winner first.

Vlad
11-14-2004, 10:54 PM
Yes, she did played very tentative on all of her breakpoint except couple when Serena aced her. I clearly remember 2 shots that Amelie could put away with one swing and she either missed it or played it right to Serena.

MoMo is a better player than Serena right now. She just can't quite perform to her level when she plays her.

JohnThomas1
11-15-2004, 01:57 AM
Nothing against Serena here, tho it is common knowledge she is scant in praise when defeated. The fact of the match for most all observers and commentators is that Serena didn't win it, Amelie lost it. Serena really isn't playing her fearsome best.

pound cat
11-15-2004, 02:55 AM
She just went for it," Mauresmo said. "I would give all the credit to her. I was playing some good tennis and she really raised her level a lot."


And here's what Serena said ""I love me. I love everything about me. I love my legs, I love my arms, I love my lips, I love my eyes," she said, laughing. "I think it's important for everyone to love themselves."

Canada.com

pound cat
11-15-2004, 02:56 AM
PS Serena wore a "I HEART ME" shirt to the interview to make it clear in case she didn't.

jaap deboeck
11-15-2004, 03:46 AM
#2 is about as good as Mauresmo can be. Serena is a better player. Adnin athens we sa that a 90% Henin is better too. Lindsay is better as is a 100% Venus. Amelie has another flaw beyond the nerves: her game is on one high level. She does not raise her game to match the moment. She was outplayed this time and did not choke it away - when Serena pusdhe dthe pedal to the metal, the match was finis. Yes, Serena pulled the same rabbit out of her hat agianst Myskina in her 1st match. Serena does dig deeper and fights harder and has more punishing power. Hence her 6 Slams to 0 for Mauresmo.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 06:37 AM
IMO this is one of those things were a good coach can help Mauresmo. She just needs to play one or two really big points better and she would win these matches..does she choke? sure she does...everyone does, even all of the pros if they are being honest would tell you they gag out there at least every once in a while (but mauresmo seems to have taken this to a pretty high level).it's often a matter of reminding yourself to play every point and forgetting about a shot you blew....not let a single bad shot translate into another and then another. it's playing stop light tennis, if you know what that is. In this case, I also think Mauresmo is disadvantaged because she has such a variety of shots she can hit, wheras someone that plays a boring style from the back, really has limited options and they can more or less focus on one option and that does make things easier in tight situations. my .02

Marius_Hancu
11-15-2004, 06:47 AM
AM has a major technical issue.

IMO, Mauresmo is emphasizing too much the topspin in her drives, losing a lot of energy into imparting it, and is as a result not able to have more frequently flat drives the winners. She is also losing time in doing that, instead of robbing her opponent of it with hitting more on the rise. Her shots are beautiful, but not efficient.

This is why in the critical moments she isn't able to wipe the floor with her opponent, with penetrating drives. It's ridiculous to see that newcomers such as Kuznetsova or Sharapova are better in terms of winners.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 07:31 AM
marius if you know tennis and would see mauresmo play close up in person, you wouldnt say somethng like that. mauresmo can flatten it out... she's got all kinds of shots from both wings, and her topspin from both wings is technically great and effective because often it lands deep in the court in addition to having all that spin as opposed to many of the pros (male and female) whose ts shots often land not much deeper than the service line. she just doesnt play the big points well IMO and that could be partly because she has so many options in her game. both players had less bite on their shots because the court was setup up slow.

Marius_Hancu
11-15-2004, 07:35 AM
marius if you know tennis and would see mauresmo play close up in person, you wouldnt say somethng like that. mauresmo can flatten it out... she's got all kinds of shots from both wings, and her topspin from both wings is technically great and effective because often it lands deep in the court in addition to having all that spin as opposed to many of the pros (male and female) whose ts shots often land not much deeper than the service line. she just doesnt play the big points well IMO and that could be partly because she has so many options in her game. both players had less bite on their shots because the court was setup up slow.

I saw her from 7 yards last year in Montreal playing doubles with Pierce, and she played great. She has a very varied repertory, but I am sticking to my opinion.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 07:52 AM
no worries marius..you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but i dont know how you can say that her game is flawed in that manner especially since you have seen her play close up..i mean she would have been #1 in the world if she played a small few key points better..and watching someone play doubles is far diff than watching them play singles i think you might agree.

Marius_Hancu
11-15-2004, 08:05 AM
no worries marius..you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but i dont know how you can say that her game is flawed in that manner especially since you have seen her play close up..i mean she would have been #1 in the world if she played a small few key points better..and watching someone play doubles is far diff than watching them play singles i think you might agree.

I admired her winning the singles in Montreal two years ago (against JCap) but that was on TV, but it pained me to see her losing to Venus in the semis of the USO two years ago IMO for the reasons I discussed.

She should have been #1 in the world for several years, but she might lack some killer instinct and I think killer shots. My opinion on her shots hasn't changed since she was in the final of the AO years ago and unfortunately no coach was able to change that. A lot of them are beautifully looped tospins, which create difficulty to the adversary, but can't end a point at will.

larrhall
11-15-2004, 08:31 AM
She lacks confidence and obviously 'calls up' previous chokes under pressure. She can certainly change this, as Lendl did, but because she got the elbow, especially at RG, a few times, it's in her head. Flat, spin, slice, top, drive - she has it all - the WTA's closest thing to Federer when it comes to repertoire. Lack of confidence shows up on return of serve when she chips and stays back. At a certain point the coach signaled her to chip and come in. That's an improvement, but she is fully capable of driving the backhand return if she trusts herself. That will be the single most telling sign, in my opinion, that she believes in her game in the big matches. Great player, the most enjoyable WTA game to watch...way better than Sharapova's screaming bludgeons.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 08:32 AM
marius in watching pretty much an entire mauresmo practice session, she spent alot of time in her practice session practicing varying spins with her forehand..she really can and does hit all kinds of forehands including flattish rippers. maybe at times when she is gagging a bit, she may get more loopy, but that is often the right way for a player to counter their gagging from the baseline..she also hit a very critical double fault in her match, made a really simple volley error, etc etc..she can produce an error with any of her shots at a critical juncture in the match, and in my opinion, that is why she isnt #1 in the world right now...not because she hits a very spinny and deep forehand as her basic ralley stroke

retro
11-15-2004, 09:52 AM
Not sure what it looked like on TV but from the seats it didn't appear to me she choked.
I do remember some really amazing shot's though, one in particular while she was in the air. She also seemed to mix up her shot's quite well actually.

BreakPoint
11-15-2004, 11:24 AM
I think there is some truth to what Marius says. I also noticed on several occasions yesterday during rallies when Mauresmo had a clear, wide open court to put the ball away but could not because she didn't flatten out her forehand. Instead, she hit a loopy, topspin forehand into the open court, which gave Serena just enough time to chase it down and get it back. Serena ususally ended up winning these rallies, many on unforced errors from Mauresmo. Now, granted that Serena is very fast, probably one of the fastest women in tennis, so Mauresmo might be able to get away with not flattening out her put away attempts against most other players, but this is not the first time she's played Serena. She should know that Serena is fast and can get to a lot of shots, and therefore, needs to nail flat winners into the open court to win the point rather than just looping it into the open court. I think her failure to put the ball away when she had the openings yersterday on several occasions ultimately cost her that match.

gaotaoshao
11-15-2004, 11:58 AM
Yes, she definitely choked. That's only one of the three reasons I observed. M.Mo just does not have it in the big games. She is so Clijsterish.

2nd, her forehand is like Henin's forehand before she became great. That extreme Western grip is only good on clay where your opponents lose the points because of exhaustion not because of your winners. Mo had Serena running sideline to sideline too many times because Mo's advantage of the one handed backband, but Mo couldn't put it away. she needs some pace on the ball and get rid of that extreme Western grip (semi W is better).

3rd, get rid of that 300g. That thing is light and has no put-away power. I used to play with it. It needs a ton of lead tape to be playable, and the elongated headshape makes it feel funny after lead has been added. The 300g is nice in rallying, but you get beat up in real games.

spinbalz
11-15-2004, 01:14 PM
Her game is not perfect and can be improved of course, but it is also true for every other WTA players (Williams sistres, Henin and Clijsters included). The real question is : does her game needs some technical improvement to let her become a true N1 and Slam events winner or is it only a matter of mental breakdown under pressure? I do think that with her current game (technically and physically) and without her repeated mental breakdowns Mauresmo would already have won one or several Slam events and would be a legitimate N1, her problem is not technical. What she already has in her game should be enough to make her a slam winner, but unfortunately for her, she has a very tourmented mind that impeaches her to give her best under pressure.

I'm afraid that almost nothing can be done to help her to stop choking in big matches, because something is really broken deep inside her since she has been sexually abused when she was a child, so she will continue to choke for an obvious reason.

BreakPoint
11-15-2004, 01:40 PM
Flat, spin, slice, top, drive - she has it all - the WTA's closest thing to Federer when it comes to repertoire.

I respectfully disagree. I think Henin-Hardenne is the closest thing to Federer on the WTA tour (that's, fo course, if she ever plays again). Mauresmo is close, but I think Henin is better, especially in big matches and finals, just like Federer.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 02:46 PM
mauresmo is so much physically stronger than henin and has even a broader array of effective shots than hardenne. also, watching a match on tv (especially at that angle) does not indicate what is actually happening out there regarding spins and pace etc. also i can assure you that mauresmo is only using a 300g paintjob and that whatever it is she actually uses is significntly heavier than the 300g. to say that her forehand is flawed is just plain wrong..she would easily be #1 in the world right now if she only played a handful of key points better..i think it's kind of funny that posters on the tw board can insist she has a flawed forehand when she is a very solid #2....you dont think if her forehand is flawed, that either she or her coach wouldnt take steps to correct that (she's a very hard worker)...you are essentially saying that you all know better than she does and her coach does...gimme a break. she clearly gags at bad moments out there...i hope she finds a way not to do that...now that i am sure she and her coach are working on..not flattening out her forehand which she already can do

Marius_Hancu
11-15-2004, 02:52 PM
marius in watching pretty much an entire mauresmo practice session, she spent alot of time in her practice session practicing varying spins with her forehand..she really can and does hit all kinds of forehands including flattish rippers.

Perhaps I should rephrase that a little: I am principally not talking about her knowledge/technique of flat shots, that's understood at her level, I am talking about the relatively low percentages they show up in their match game, especially at critical moments, when she should rip a winner and finalize say a breakpoint in her favor.

Many baseliners are perfect in volley practice sessions, but you would not see them at the net for entire matches.

Or look at Dementieva, Morozova (her coach) says she's very good in service practice. Now, talk about matches ... old habits show up.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 02:59 PM
marius i suggest you contact mauresmo then to be her coach :) since you claim to know more than she or her coach does about what is wrong w. her game.

Marius_Hancu
11-15-2004, 03:18 PM
marius i suggest you contact mauresmo then to be her coach :) since you claim to know more than she or her coach does about what is wrong w. her game.

Thank you for your advice. And don't be too skeptical about non-professionals doing better jobs in coaching than professionals, let's not forget Seles's shot repertory and career was built by her father, a cartoonist, Agassi's career by his father, a boxer, much as NB would like to let us believe otherwise.

However, I am busy marketing myself to Federer:-) I'd like to see him play more S-V, I think he's getting into too long exchanges for his long-term benefit.

I'm glad the sun showed up at Wimby this year and woke him up, he was on a losing path with Roddick, as he mentioned in interviews, until he decided to S-V more.

Just between us, I am pretty skeptical about changing players at 23-24yrs .... they tend to stick to their guns, good or bad, learned from junior years. They also tend to think short term.

Very few are able to take major leaps, like Henin did in embarking on that conditioning program and becoming more agressive ... I respect that very much.

larrhall
11-15-2004, 03:49 PM
Breakpoint, agree to disagree. I believe Amelie has a better repertoire than Henin. Moves better in general, volleys better. I think Justine's backhand, beautiful as it is, is more prone to errors than most think. Somebody pointed this out this year, Shriver or Fernandez or someone. She actually is more consistent with her forehand. I think the difference is the mental toughness and confidence; true, in this way Henin is more like Federer, but in terms of game, variety and talent I'll go with Amelie. Henin reminds me of a female Jim Courier, maximizing her game through incredible drive, fitness and stubborn dedication. I also agree with Spinbalz, though I have no idea about her childhood, that Mauresmo has a huge hole when it comes to confidence. So perhaps she'll never do what Ivan Lendl did, and that is a pity for her and tennis fans.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 04:50 PM
marius you are certainy entitled to your opinions and federer still doesnt have a coach so maybe contact roger as well..and ditto for fed playing more s.v.....you dont think he's smart enough to figure out if playing more s.v is the right move? it really isnt..maybe he could mix in a hair more s.v, but if he wishes to continue to win, he isnt going to play s.v T on any sort of regular basis..the % just isnt there to do that any more.

Marius_Hancu
11-15-2004, 05:31 PM
marius you are certainy entitled to your opinions and federer still doesnt have a coach so maybe contact roger as well..and ditto for fed playing more s.v.....you dont think he's smart enough to figure out if playing more s.v is the right move? it really isnt..maybe he could mix in a hair more s.v, but if he wishes to continue to win, he isnt going to play s.v T on any sort of regular basis..the % just isnt there to do that any more.

Just 2 years after Sampras won USO with S-V against Agassi, the best returner in the game? Strange thoughts to me ...

Federer himself recognized in interviews his volleys are one of the areas where he needs improvement. Not sure what kind of improvements he has in mind, but as his technique seems flawless for guys like us, it might be in the resistance-to-shock area.

He's not in the Sampras's range yet in that respect, who was able to confront head on very hard passing shots.

It might be because:

- his forearrm and wrist a a little bit weaker
- his racket is at least 1oz lighter than Sampras's
- his serve might be easier to return than Sampras's, who was known to have the most rotational speed of his generation, at least

thus there are areas of improvement, which we have in mind:-))

Best advice I would give to Federer would be to hire Paul Annacone as a coach. He knows everything about S-V at this level.

NoBadMojo
11-15-2004, 05:37 PM
huh

Noelle
11-15-2004, 09:04 PM
Isn't Annacone Tim Henman's coach now, though? (Don't take that away from Timbo!) :)

JohnThomas1
11-15-2004, 10:20 PM
Sampras at this stage is a better volleyer than Fed, tho Fed is quite good.

davey25
11-16-2004, 05:29 AM
Sorry but Maursemo is way overrated. Look at some matches:

1)Mauresmo at her best could not beat a badly struggling Venus in the 2002 U.S open semis losing 6-3, 5-7, 6-4

2)Mauresmo was twice smoked by Serena in slam quarters/semis at the 2002 Wimbledon and 2003 French Open

3)Mauresmo's return of serve is the worst of all the top women.
More often top women can go on a stretch of 4 unmet serves against her if they hit big serves, than anybody else. That is how a very sloppy Venus finished their 2001 U.S open semis

4)Mauresmo has not reached a slam final in almost 5 years the only one she ever reached

5)This year it was all open for anybody. Women not yet in the inititiation of their primes like Sharapova and Kuznetsova, women not that good like Myskina and Dementieva, ill-timed injured women like Henin and Clijsters and Davenport, and struggling unmotivated women like Serena and Venus and Capriati. She still couldnt win even one slam or reach a slam final. She isnt even enough of a top player to take advantage of no other top players in abled state.

6)She is more vurnerable to losing to low ranked women than other top players too. Look at some of the slam losses in her career.

7)Mauresmo at her best could also not beat a catastrophic Serena in the Wimbledon semis this year losing 5-7, 7-5, 6-4

Mauresmo better than Henin fundamentally and ability wise? No way in hell. Henin is technically sounder, cleaner, and more powerful off both forehand and backhand. Her return is infinitely superior. Her serve is atleast as strong. Her net game is about the same. Movement Henin is slightly superior. Tactically she is much better. Her transition game is superior too, as is her overhead. Their is no comparision. You are all right on one thing though, Henin is giganteously mentally stronger as well. Mauresmo is very lucky Henin was injured this year. If she were healthy Henin would easily be #1 and have won atleast 2 slams this year. When she is healthy again she will romp over Mauresmo in the rankings. Even so Henin in many ways had the superior year, rankings aside, Mauresmo had good results all year but Henin won an Australian Open and Oly gold. Henin doesnt need many opportunities to make good the awesome champion she is and Mauresmo isnt.

Marius_Hancu
11-16-2004, 05:55 AM
Isn't Annacone Tim Henman's coach now, though? (Don't take that away from Timbo!) :)

Right you are. We're considering some time-sharing options here between Fed and Tim. Not sure if the principals would agree, but being both so civil, I would expect they would. :-))

Pushmaster
11-17-2004, 09:05 AM
Amalie is the female version of Tim Henman. Both great players, but will never win the "big one". Are they both chokers? No, they just consistantly get out played by the better opponent when it counts.

spinbalz
11-17-2004, 11:13 AM
Pushmaster, if you think that Mauresmo is not a choker, then you understand nothing about her, but perhaps is it only because you did not saw enough of her matches. Under pressure Mauresmo's mind always fails, is something difficult to understand? For example, mauresmo lost against dementieva in the French open, if we folow your statement then she only was outplayed by a better player (Dementieva), so if Dementieva is a better player, how comes that before that French open match Dementieva lost 6 time in a raw against Mauresmo, but only in medium events, I will add that Dementieva has been severely beaten 6/0 6/0 once by Mauresmo only 1 year before the French open match? Please explain in what that kind of exemplar results tells you that Mauresmo is not a choker and that she simply lost against a better player (Dementieva)?

I bet that you did not saw enough of Mauresmo's matches to realise how good she really can play and the difference in the the way she plays when her mind fails under pressure, compared to how she play when she doesn't feel too much pressure, (on a technical viewpoint, you just have to take a look at the difference in her forehand stroke mechanic when she is under pressure compared to when she is not under pressure), of course if you almost only saw Mauresmo when she lost , thenI can understand how you don't realize how good she is.

davey25
11-18-2004, 05:17 AM
I have seen Mauresmo when she plays well. She can be impressive but lets put some perspective on it all. Beating a tired Likhovtseva 6-1, 6-0; or an out of shape Capriati 6-2, 6-0; is nothing like beating a hungry Williams or Henin-Hardenne in a major event.