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kumat63
10-20-2007, 01:28 PM
Hit this afternoon with the Microgel Prestige. Went with the MP 18x20. I've been playing the Liquid Metal Prestige MP and like a tight pattern (I could have taken the 16x19 Pro for a spin but sorry--I've got no interest in an open string pattern, even though I know that's the "hotter" frame at the moment). As far as my game: I'm 44, have been playing 35 years, played Div. 1 tennis in the early 80's, took the 90's off, and just started playing again a few years ago. I like a flexy frame between 12 and 12.5 ounces, and string with all poly--BB ALU Power is my current choice, have also played Pro Hurricane and Head Ultra Tour. I play an all court game and don't hit particularly hard. Control is always my first priority in a racquet and feel a close second...

The MG Prestige MP I tried was strung with Sonic Pro and my LM Prestige MP is strung with BB ALU Power at 55. Sonic Pro was supposed to be around 59. The MG weighed in at 12.1 ounces, exactly what my LM weighs.

The first thing I noticed is that the MG seems to have a little lighter swingweight than my LM. That's just an impression. I didn't measure it. I'd also guess (without measuring) that the MG is probably about the same 8 points headlight my LM measures. But I really noticed a rounder feel to the MG Prestige grip. It felt noticeably less rectangular than my LM Prestige. For those who like a more "Wilson" shape grip, your Prestige seems to have finally come in!

The two racquets performed very similarly. I didn't notice any more pop or control with one or the other. I could switch back and forth without making adjustments. For me, I think that's good because I really like the way the LM Prestige performs for me. I can place the ball where I want it, control is excellent, and pace is very acceptable.

The big difference I noticed was feel. I thought the MG felt stiffer than my LM. Now my LM is 3 years old has lots of hits and string jobs on it. I've averaged probably 2 times a week with it and strung it 15 or 20 times. I think racquets tend to feel softer when they get a bit broken in. So maybe it's not apples to apples, but I could really notice a slightly stiffer and less flexy feel to the MG Prestige, which surprised me. I thought (and hoped) it would be the other way around.

That said, the feel was still quite good. To me it felt like the throat flexed about the same as the LM, but the hoop seemed stiffer. But control, placement, pace--were all what I expect from a Head Prestige. Great!

My sense would be those who were expecting a much softer feel or significantly different performance aren't likely to find it with the MG--but the differences are very subtle, and as I said before could be explained by the difference between a 3 year old frame and a brand new one.

The one thing I really liked was the rounder grip. I'm used to the rectangular grip, but every time I picked up the MG I thought "Gosh--I like the way that fits in my hand!"

Enough to make me switch? Probably not. But when my two LM Prestiges are really tired, I know I could pick up a pair of MGs and not miss a beat. BTW--I could not say the same about the Flexpoint Prestige. Demoed one a year ago and thought it felt noticeably stiffer than my LM and had more power than I wanted. It also seemed more head heavy--the demo I tried was only 6 pts headlight. Sorry I can't compare the MG to a PT630 or i.Prestige, but I never played those....

HLM2
10-20-2007, 01:54 PM
Nice review, so you didn't notice much of a "feel" difference between the LM and MG? Most say LM is tinny and MG is really solid, did that apply in your case?

Also, a little off topic but how did you like the Ultra tour compared with other polys?

babolatking
10-20-2007, 01:56 PM
pics? (10 characters)

HeadPrestige
10-20-2007, 02:26 PM
if the MG feels like the LM then i am very disappointed. The LM was by far the worst prestige IMO. It felt hollow and tinny.

kumat63
10-20-2007, 02:52 PM
Nice review, so you didn't notice much of a "feel" difference between the LM and MG? Most say LM is tinny and MG is really solid, did that apply in your case?

Also, a little off topic but how did you like the Ultra tour compared with other polys?


I really didn't notice much difference to be honest. It felt like the MG flexed a bit less--and I called that a "stiffer" feel--but more "solid" would also be a fair description and perhaps better... it did feel very solid. The MG still felt more "buttery" than other players' frames I've tried, but it didn't feel as soft as my LM. Like I said, my LM has 3 years and thousands of sets on it and 15-20 string jobs. My stringer also thinks that as frames fatigue they get feeling softer, deader. Maybe that's a better way to say it--my LM feels "deader" "softer" than the MG. I don't have a new LM to compare, so it might be apples and oranges. I liked the feel of the MG and could get used to it easily and quickly. I think my LM was strung 4 lbs softer and that might have something to do with it.

I liked Ultra Tour a lot! It was my favorite for a long time. Very soft feeling for a poly. But the ALU Power feels almost as good, and has even better control, maybe a tad more pop too... but Ultra Tour is good stuff. I could play with it very happily. I'd really like to talk my stringer into stringing up the MG with Ultra Tour--then I could give a more precise "feel" comparison. This was my first experience with Sonic...

kumat63
10-20-2007, 02:59 PM
if the MG feels like the LM then i am very disappointed. The LM was by far the worst prestige IMO. It felt hollow and tinny.

Hollow and tinny compared to what? Hollow and tinny are not words I'd apply to the LM Prestige. I thought the Babolat Pure Drive felt hollow and tinny to be honest, and the LM by comparison feels much more buttery and smooth and flexy. I thought the 03 Tour felt "twangy" compared to my Prestige. I thougth a Wilson ncode 6.1 95 felt very stiff and "boardy" compared to the LM. The Yonex MP-1 Tour felt "hollow" to me compared to the LM. Maybe a LM Prestige feels hollow and tinny compared to a PT630, but I've never swung one of those, so I can't say.

I thought the Flexpoint Prestige felt much stiffer and boardy compared to the LM That was not a good feeling racquet to me, and made an odd "pinging" sound too that was unpleasant. That's just my opinion though. Again, mine is nicely broken in. Maybe you didn't play with the LM long enough;)

HeadPrestige
10-20-2007, 03:21 PM
i had the LM for 1.5 years.. and hollow and tinny are the exact words to describe it.

Compare it side by side to the flexpoint or I prestige, and tell me it does not feel tinny. I just personally think the LM was by far the worst prestige ever made. It lacked feel because it had no apparent sweetspot... it really was just an awkward racket.

Old_Crow
10-20-2007, 05:49 PM
Different strokes I guess... Same as the OP, I like the LM Prestige feel. With a dampener, it doesn't feel hollow to me at all. It's my second favorite MP Prestige behind the PT630 which is way ahead. I didn't care for either the i. or FXP models, too stiff/crisp for me.

Thanks for posting Kumat, very helpful.

kumat63
10-20-2007, 05:52 PM
i had the LM for 1.5 years.. and hollow and tinny are the exact words to describe it.

Compare it side by side to the flexpoint or I prestige, and tell me it does not feel tinny. I just personally think the LM was by far the worst prestige ever made. It lacked feel because it had no apparent sweetspot... it really was just an awkward racket.

Okay. I compared it to the Flexpoint Prestige and thought the LM doesn't fell "tinny" at all. I found the Flexpoint Prestige too stiff and over-powered. I thought the LM had the more muted and soft feel I expect from a Prestige. I find a plenty generous sweetspot with the LM. It's a very good players stick for those who want a soft feeling, control oriented frame. If you check back reviews, TW scored the LM Prestige higher than the Flexpoint version. In fact the LM Prestige scored an 81 overall, putting it up there with the other favorite players sticks (and a point or two above the Flexpoint Prestige as I recall). So I'm not the only one who thought it was a very good racquet. Sounds like you want a more powerful racquet with the Prestige name on it... but that racquet is (properly) called a Radical or an Extreme ;)

I thought the MG Prestige was back in the right range in terms of feel and control. Much better than the Flexpoint. I'm being very picky when I say it was a tad stiffer than my beat-up LM. If you want to use the word more "solid" feeling instead, as I posted above, that's maybe a nicer way of putting it. I just like a very soft, deader feeling racquet. Not everyone does, but those of us who grew up playing with wood kind of like that feel...

kumat63
10-20-2007, 05:57 PM
Different strokes I guess... Same as the OP, I like the LM Prestige feel. With a dampener, it doesn't feel hollow to me at all. It's my second favorite MP Prestige behind the PT630 which is way ahead. I didn't care for either the i. or FXP models, too stiff/crisp for me.

Thanks for posting Kumat, very helpful.

My pleasure. I've never hit with the PT630, but I suspect I would really like it from the general consenus on its very buttery feel and control. Stiff/crisp racquets just aren't my cup of tee. Plenty of those out there these days. Glad Head seems to be moving back a bit towards the softer feel. I think those who found the FXP too stiff/crisp will find the MG much more up their alley...

weaver
10-20-2007, 06:03 PM
I love the head ultra tour 16. Sonic pro feels kinda dead to me... Any ways i can't wait for my club to get the racquets in then if i like, i can't wait for college season!

HeadPrestige
10-20-2007, 06:07 PM
Sounds like you want a more powerful racquet with the Prestige name on it... but that racquet is (properly) called a Radical or an Extreme ;)
.

Yes, i obviously have no idea about feel and want a more powerful racket while switched to the PS 6.0 95 .

In regards to your comments about the FXP vs lm prestige.. plenty of people agree that the FXP is far superior. It is a much more stable racket. You mention the TW scores on the reviews, but did you read the text? They came to the conclusion that it was a good upgrade over the LM because it was more stable from all areas of the court.

If you think the LM prestige feels ANYTHING like the PC600, or other classic rackets you are sorely mistaken. NO classic racket i have hit with feels as hollow, and cheap feeling as the LM prestige.

kumat63
10-21-2007, 10:35 AM
I love the head ultra tour 16. Sonic pro feels kinda dead to me... Any ways i can't wait for my club to get the racquets in then if i like, i can't wait for college season!

I'd be interested to hear how you compare the feel of Ultra Tour to Sonic Pro. You mentioned Sonic felt dead to you--could you say more about that? Maybe some of my feel issues with the MG were from the Sonic string?

Thanks!

kumat63
10-21-2007, 10:59 AM
Yes, i obviously have no idea about feel and want a more powerful racket while switched to the PS 6.0 95 .

In regards to your comments about the FXP vs lm prestige.. plenty of people agree that the FXP is far superior. It is a much more stable racket. You mention the TW scores on the reviews, but did you read the text? They came to the conclusion that it was a good upgrade over the LM because it was more stable from all areas of the court.

If you think the LM prestige feels ANYTHING like the PC600, or other classic rackets you are sorely mistaken. NO classic racket i have hit with feels as hollow, and cheap feeling as the LM prestige.

Hey, I never put down your opinions at all, friend. You were the one telling me how awful my favorite racquet is and I was just telling you the reasons why I like it (and yes, it still scores higher in TW reviews than the FXP. I did read the text ;) I respect your differing views all the same. It's a free country. I'm well aware the LM was not everyone's cup of tea. However, if you're saying you switched from a LM Prestige to the PS 6.0 95 as a sign of your taste for soft, low powered frames (though I couldn't tell from your syntax if that was what you meant to say), I would point out a PS 6.0 95 has a 67 stiffness rating and I have hit with one of those and I'd say it feels stiffer/more crisp than my LM Prestige or even the FXP Prestige (which have 63 and 65 stiffness ratings respectively). And yes, I find a PS 6.0 95 a more powerful frame than any Prestige. So I'd say liking a PS 6.0 95 more than a LM Prestige demonstrates exactly what I surmised about your preferences--you like a stiffer/crisper/more powerful frame than a Prestige. Nothing wrong with that, and a Wilson Pro Staff certainly gives you that. But putting down the LM Prestige for being "hollow" or "tinny" when you really just personally prefer a stiffer/crisper/more powerful frame is not really a fair criticism. A Prestige is supposed to be soft and muted and low powered. The LM is that compared to the Wilson Pro Staff line. And an FXP is closer to a Pro Staff than any other Prestige (and noticeably stiffer feeling to me than the MG Prestige).

I never said the LM feels like a PC600 or a PT630. I stated clearly I'd never hit with those frames. And I also said I liked the MG Prestige a lot--that I thought the feel was softer and more pleasing to me than the more stiff/crisp FXP. I only reported it didn't feel quite as soft to me as a very beat up LM Prestige--and was pretty specific that I thought the fatigue on my frame could explain that...

HeadPrestige
10-21-2007, 11:18 AM
for one thing, the ps 6.0 95 is far less powerful than the prestige line in general. It is considered one of the most underpowered rackets out there.

Also, the ps 6.0 95 plays much softer than TWs 67 stiffness rating. You have to take into account composition and beam width and cannot just go by numbers. The ps 6.0 95 has a much more classic feel, and feels less stiff than the FXP to me. I switched from that racket becuase it was too stiff and causing me elbow pain.

Also, the prestige line is not supposed to be "soft and muted as you said." You are confusing the buttery feel of the pc 600 with the feeling of being muted. I would definitely not describe the px600 has a muted racket.

From your posts it seems like you obviously have not hit with the pc600 or the ps 6.0 95... esp because you say the ps 6.0 is more powerful.

snoflewis
10-21-2007, 11:39 AM
Hey, I never put down your opinions at all, friend. You were the one telling me how awful my favorite racquet is and I was just telling you the reasons why I like it (and yes, it still scores higher in TW reviews than the FXP. I did read the text ;) I respect your differing views all the same. It's a free country. I'm well aware the LM was not everyone's cup of tea. However, if you're saying you switched from a LM Prestige to the PS 6.0 95 as a sign of your taste for soft, low powered frames (though I couldn't tell from your syntax if that was what you meant to say), I would point out a PS 6.0 95 has a 67 stiffness rating and I have hit with one of those and I'd say it feels stiffer/more crisp than my LM Prestige or even the FXP Prestige (which have 63 and 65 stiffness ratings respectively). And yes, I find a PS 6.0 95 a more powerful frame than any Prestige. So I'd say liking a PS 6.0 95 more than a LM Prestige demonstrates exactly what I surmised about your preferences--you like a stiffer/crisper/more powerful frame than a Prestige. Nothing wrong with that, and a Wilson Pro Staff certainly gives you that. But putting down the LM Prestige for being "hollow" or "tinny" when you really just personally prefer a stiffer/crisper/more powerful frame is not really a fair criticism. A Prestige is supposed to be soft and muted and low powered. The LM is that compared to the Wilson Pro Staff line. And an FXP is closer to a Pro Staff than any other Prestige (and noticeably stiffer feeling to me than the MG Prestige).

I never said the LM feels like a PC600 or a PT630. I stated clearly I'd never hit with those frames. And I also said I liked the MG Prestige a lot--that I thought the feel was softer and more pleasing to me than the more stiff/crisp FXP. I only reported it didn't feel quite as soft to me as a very beat up LM Prestige--and was pretty specific that I thought the fatigue on my frame could explain that...

you're telling everyone that a prestige is supposed to be soft, muted, and low powered, yet, 2 of the last 3 prestige series that came out were considered to be stiff, even for prestiges. secondly, there are PLENTY of flexible frames out there that are a lot more solid and stable than the LM prestige. the LM prestige DOES feel hollow and tinny when it's stock and that's just the way it is. maybe you just like the combo of the flexibility/hollow/tinny/muted feeling....no one's criticizing you for that. the redondo and rdx500 mid are just a couple examples. the redondo's more flexible while only weighing 0.2 oz more...and it's noticeably more solid w/o the hollow feeling. the rdx500 mid is even lighter than the lm prestige and still more solid.

as for the 6.0 95...yes, on paper, it's stiffer than both the prestiges...but how many times have you hit w/ it? if you hit with it enough...you'd know how underpowered it was. it's definitely lower powered than the fp prestige mp, and imo, underpowered more so than the LM prestige mp.

in terms of stiffness, the FP prestige is a lot stiffer than the 6.0 95.....the 6.0 95 feels no where near the 67 stiffness...and i haven't seen one person dispute that claim until now...

weaver
10-21-2007, 03:04 PM
I'd be interested to hear how you compare the feel of Ultra Tour to Sonic Pro. You mentioned Sonic felt dead to you--could you say more about that? Maybe some of my feel issues with the MG were from the Sonic string?

Thanks!

When i hit with the sonic pro, it felt that i wasn't getting any feeling in them. I felt that i had better contact with the ultra tour and on volleys it felt that the Ultra Tour was more powerful... iono how to explain... i guess that is really is the only way i can explain...

TRiBaL
10-21-2007, 04:27 PM
The liquidmentals are hollow? I don't think their hollow. You must be comparing it to something really solid. But I can see in ways why you would think its hollow.

Pro_Tour_630
10-21-2007, 04:40 PM
Nice Review. When you get a chance you really need to give the PT280 or iprestige MP a test drive and let us know what you think. They are all different.

kumat63
10-22-2007, 01:57 PM
Nice Review. When you get a chance you really need to give the PT280 or iprestige MP a test drive and let us know what you think. They are all different.

Thanks... I'd love to try a PT280 or PT630 (what exactly is the difference between the two?) and/or an i.Prestige MP. How would I get a hold of a decent one?

kumat63
10-22-2007, 02:12 PM
for one thing, the ps 6.0 95 is far less powerful than the prestige line in general. It is considered one of the most underpowered rackets out there.

Also, the ps 6.0 95 plays much softer than TWs 67 stiffness rating. You have to take into account composition and beam width and cannot just go by numbers. The ps 6.0 95 has a much more classic feel, and feels less stiff than the FXP to me. I switched from that racket becuase it was too stiff and causing me elbow pain.

Also, the prestige line is not supposed to be "soft and muted as you said." You are confusing the buttery feel of the pc 600 with the feeling of being muted. I would definitely not describe the px600 has a muted racket.

From your posts it seems like you obviously have not hit with the pc600 or the ps 6.0 95... esp because you say the ps 6.0 is more powerful.

Two years ago I played a set with the PS 6.0 95 that an opponent had. We switched racquets and hit a few balls after the match. Not a long hit for sure and quite some time ago, but enough to give me the impression that it was a more powerful and stiffer feeling than my LM Prestige. Not by a lot--it's still certainly in the classic players frame feel/performance. But stiffer feeling and just a tad more pop than my Prestige. Again, that's just my opinion, how it felt to me. The Pro Staff classics are certainly very good frames, and I see why they have a following. They just aren't quite my cup of tea... to me the PS 6.0 95 felt very much like the n6.1 95 I tried a few weeks later. A little less pop maybe, but very similar feel.

Oh and for like the third time--I've never said I hit a PC600! Okay?

I don't understand why you jump all over me for having a different impression of a racquet than your own. Obviously we all like different things and can have different opinions about the same stick. Have I put you down or trashed the frames you like? No I haven't. Could you extend the same courtesy to me? It would be appreciated. I'm on the board to exchange information not to fight. If you don't like what I write, there are plenty of other threads...

kumat63
10-22-2007, 04:31 PM
you're telling everyone that a prestige is supposed to be soft, muted, and low powered, yet, 2 of the last 3 prestige series that came out were considered to be stiff, even for prestiges. secondly, there are PLENTY of flexible frames out there that are a lot more solid and stable than the LM prestige. the LM prestige DOES feel hollow and tinny when it's stock and that's just the way it is. maybe you just like the combo of the flexibility/hollow/tinny/muted feeling....no one's criticizing you for that. the redondo and rdx500 mid are just a couple examples. the redondo's more flexible while only weighing 0.2 oz more...and it's noticeably more solid w/o the hollow feeling. the rdx500 mid is even lighter than the lm prestige and still more solid.

as for the 6.0 95...yes, on paper, it's stiffer than both the prestiges...but how many times have you hit w/ it? if you hit with it enough...you'd know how underpowered it was. it's definitely lower powered than the fp prestige mp, and imo, underpowered more so than the LM prestige mp.

in terms of stiffness, the FP prestige is a lot stiffer than the 6.0 95.....the 6.0 95 feels no where near the 67 stiffness...and i haven't seen one person dispute that claim until now...

"The LM Prestige does feel hollow and tinny... and that's the way it is"

Okay. So if that's the way it feels to you then "that's the way it is"! I get it. Thanks for sharing. It still doesn't feel that way to me though. Didn't feel that way to the TW reviewers who hit with it when it was new either. I have hit with the RDX 500 mid. Nice frame. But I didn't find it more stable or solid feeling than the LM Prestige. I found it very similar to the LM in feel and stability in fact, and the RDX 500 MP more similar still. Just a bit lighter swinging, but the other racquet that most tempted me when I bought the Prestige. Really, I'd be happy playing with an RDX500 MP (the mid doesn't leave me enough room for error) except I liked the slightly heavier feel of the Prestige and I think a tighter string pattern gives me a bit more control...

I've hit the LM, FXP, and MG Prestiges. They all play similarly enough to seem to me to merit having the same name. More flexible, muted and lower powered than most frames out there today. And all more flexible than their Wilson Pro Staff and n code and k factor counterparts. They feel that way to me and the RDC numbers say they are (even the FXP is softer than the PS 6.0 95 according to the numbers, and my brief hit with it left me with that impression also). But if you say RDC numbers are meaningless, we're back to "right you are if you think you are".

Oh, and how is telling someone their opinion is just flat wrong (not a different opinion than yours, but simply "not the way it is") not a criticism? You're entitled to your opinion. Mine is just different.

HeadPrestige
10-22-2007, 05:17 PM
You obviously have no idea of feel in a racket if you think the ps 6.0 95 feels ANYTHING like the n-sixone.

I was not criticizing what racket you liked, just the fact that you warp the facts about racket to favor your beloved LM. The ps 6.0 95 has far less power than any prestige. You have no idea what you are talking about if you think different.

Also, RDC numbers do not flat out determine the feel of a racket. It is not just sn of lewis's opinion that the ps 6.0 95 plays softer than the fxp, but pretty much everyone on these boards. Stop defending your racket with plain numbers and the reviews from TW. The reviews mean nothing, it is simply the opinion of five people that happen to hit with the racket.


Your comments on the ps 6.0 95 make it clear, that you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to racket feel.

bertrevert
10-22-2007, 05:33 PM
The LM in the Radicals gets a similar rap about being and hollow and tinny and although they're not bad they're not that crash hot either. I still like the racquet and play best for me with it, nevertheless the Head LM was not a raging success (I mean look how many they are selling in liquidation!), so I tend to agree with snoflewis that the shared opinion is along those lines about the "feel" of LM in Head frames. As I repeat I still like Radicals and feel there are many worse racquets out there. Just the LM Rads were demoted under the FXP. So I guess it's similar to the Prestiges in this respect only.

Now I want to go back to split apart what you say about the Prestige from what you say about the microgel material's feel. I want to focus on the materials.

The big difference I noticed was feel. I thought the MG felt stiffer than my LM <SNIP> ... I really didn't notice much difference to be honest. It felt like the MG flexed a bit less--and I called that a "stiffer" feel--but more "solid" would also be a fair description and perhaps better... it did feel very solid. The MG still felt more "buttery" than other players' frames I've tried, but it didn't feel as soft as my LM. . I'd really like to talk my stringer into stringing up the MG with Ultra Tour--then I could give a more precise "feel" comparison. This was my first experience with Sonic...

It's seems that people are agreeing that this microgel in the materials is "solid" removing vibration, twang-i-ness, and juddering while still delivery feel, feedback and touch. Not as muted as nCode.

Even though the raquets with microgel seem to have flex, low stiffness, they seem to be delivering good feel.

Lastly, criticism is healthy so just get on with it. If others say you don't have a good angle on the other racquets you made comparisons with, nevertheless you can add to and clarify what you mean about microgel no harm in that.

Chauvalito
10-22-2007, 05:42 PM
So did Head change their grips to a more square, rather than rectangular shape?

Pro_Tour_630
10-22-2007, 05:47 PM
Thanks... I'd love to try a PT280 or PT630 (what exactly is the difference between the two?) and/or an i.Prestige MP. How would I get a hold of a decent one?

shoot me an email chaho@sbcglobal.net

The PT 630/280 are more or a muted feel while the iprestige is more of a crisp feel. Both are nice. Late batches of Chinese PT280 have a bit heftier feel due to higher SW and flex. They all have that SOLID feel and when you hit side by side with one of these frames next to an LM prestige MP you will see the difference. The new Microgels brings back some of that solid feel.

snoflewis
10-22-2007, 07:23 PM
"The LM Prestige does feel hollow and tinny... and that's the way it is"

Okay. So if that's the way it feels to you then "that's the way it is"! I get it. Thanks for sharing. It still doesn't feel that way to me though. Didn't feel that way to the TW reviewers who hit with it when it was new either. I have hit with the RDX 500 mid. Nice frame. But I didn't find it more stable or solid feeling than the LM Prestige. I found it very similar to the LM in feel and stability in fact, and the RDX 500 MP more similar still. Just a bit lighter swinging, but the other racquet that most tempted me when I bought the Prestige. Really, I'd be happy playing with an RDX500 MP (the mid doesn't leave me enough room for error) except I liked the slightly heavier feel of the Prestige and I think a tighter string pattern gives me a bit more control...

I've hit the LM, FXP, and MG Prestiges. They all play similarly enough to seem to me to merit having the same name. More flexible, muted and lower powered than most frames out there today. And all more flexible than their Wilson Pro Staff and n code and k factor counterparts. They feel that way to me and the RDC numbers say they are (even the FXP is softer than the PS 6.0 95 according to the numbers, and my brief hit with it left me with that impression also). But if you say RDC numbers are meaningless, we're back to "right you are if you think you are".

Oh, and how is telling someone their opinion is just flat wrong (not a different opinion than yours, but simply "not the way it is") not a criticism? You're entitled to your opinion. Mine is just different.

first of all...have you tried any of those rackets w/ the same string job as your racket? some strings/tension make the racket feel differently than others. and have you even tried any of those rackets w/ various string jobs? and yes, i found the lm prestige mp (as well as the lm radical mp...so im w/ you on that one bertrevert) to be hollow and tinny. the racket stock just did not have a clean feel to it...it felt hollow. as much as i've hit w/ the racket, it didnt even feel like it had a sweetspot because of a lack of feel...and of course TW wouldnt say it felt hollow. it's a flagship racket from Head that they have to sell. have you EVER seen TW say something bad about the performance a big racket release? no...why do you think the racket reviews are constantly being inflated (another subject)? TW's goal is to sell rackets, not put them down. that's why we're here. if you actually believe TW's reviews, then we would no longer even have to be disagreeing here.

once again, yes, numerically, all the head rackets ARE more flexible. but now you're saying just because a machine physically bends a frame and puts out a number based on how much it flexed and that's how stiff it's gonna feel, ok...yea, those numbers are leigt. but believe it or not, that's not the same response as when the ball hits the racket. check out any triad based racket. their flex is around mid 40s...and if you agree that it feels like it's in the mid 40s and since it's flexible, it's gonna prevent arm issues that much...you're greatly mistaken. also, you seem to mix up the terms muted and flexy. just because a frame is flexy doesnt mean it's muted and just because it's muted, doesnt mean it's flexy. the n6.1 95 (which btw is nothing even CLOSE in feel to the 6.0 95) is muted, yet stiffer. the redondo is flexy but not muted.

and as for the comparison w/ the 6.0 95, your statements are just as valid as how long as you hit with them. "brief". if all your arguments are based off of "brief" hitting sessions, then it's obvious you have limited experience w/ any of the rackets you're referring to.

HeadPrestige
10-22-2007, 07:32 PM
i agree with snoflewis 100%. Honestly, it would be hard not to, considering the actual feel of a racket is very objective while personal preference on feel is completely subjective.

You keep showing me, and the other members on the forums your ignorance towards the feel of rackets. If you can honestly come out of a hitting session with the 6.0 95 and the n-sixone and think they hit similar, then you obviosly have no clue about racket feel.

You keep grouping the 6.0 95 with the k factors and ncodes.. but the only similarity between the 6.0 and those is the pro staff name.

Also, as snoflewis said, RDC numbers cannot always determine how a racket would feel. These tests do not take into account frame composition and other factors that would affect the general feel of a racket.

VikingSamurai
10-22-2007, 07:37 PM
Ok, I gotta step in here and say that you guys that are having a go at the OP need to just take a chill pill and get over yourselves..

I read his OP and found it rather informative as I am a newby when it comes to Head frames.. Now, I understood clearly what he was trying to explain, and I certainly don't think he was trying to be an expert, rather just give his take on what he used in the past, and what he is feeling with this new stick..

As for getting into him because he hasn't explained things in a way that maybe you youselve's would explain it, then you have no right in giving him a hard time.. No body deserves to have to put up with that kind of crap when they post on these boards, and after reading what you have said to him, and in the manner that you did, then you would be the last person that I would want to get information from..

The fact that your user name is HeadPrestige would also suggest that you have an adgenda, and some of us that have open minds would like to gather information without others pushing their opinions on us..

HeadPrestige
10-22-2007, 07:44 PM
yes.. the username headprestige means i have an agenda against the MG prestige.... and i am in LOVE with every other model.. even though i use the 6.0 95... yeah that makes sense.

All i stated in an earlier post was that i was disappointed that the racket felt similar to the LM prestige because i personally thought that racket felt hollow and tinny.

That is where the OP started to spew out his BS.

VikingSamurai
10-22-2007, 07:56 PM
yes.. the username headprestige means i have an agenda against the MG prestige.... and i am in LOVE with every other model.. even though i use the 6.0 95... yeah that makes sense.

All i stated in an earlier post was that i was disappointed that the racket felt similar to the LM prestige because i personally thought that racket felt hollow and tinny.

That is where the OP started to spew out his BS.

Yes, and that is your opinion.. Why is it that because this guy doesnt see it in the same light as you, that he is spewing BS?

Kinda silly really what you are saying in all honesty..

Old_Crow
10-22-2007, 07:59 PM
No **** Chris...

Why not a respectful "Hey, I completely disagree with your opinion about the LM Prestige but thanks for taking the time to post a review about the MG.... and so on".

Feel is subjective and given the OP played D1 college ball, I'm guessing he has a clear idea as to what he likes and doesn't like. I like the LM Prestige MP fine and I hit with a PT630 and lately a PC600 5-6 days a week. I didn't care for the i.prestige or the FXP as they felt stiffer than I like. I like the FXP Radical Tour but don't like the MG Radical Pro. So what... What you guys are saying is the same as someone saying Burgundy is better than Bordeaux and if you think different, you haven't got a clue. I'm guessing there would be a helluva lot more useful information posted on this board if people would post then way they would speak face to face...

Hey Chris, noticed you are in ***uoka. I lived just south of you in Nagasaki for 4 years. Man do I miss Hakata ramen! I spent many late nights up your way hitting the yatai for ramen & gyoza to soak up the 'Kuroraberu' before heading in. It's impossible to get good ramen here and even then it's all shoyu, no tonkotsu. Natsukashii na...

VikingSamurai
10-22-2007, 08:31 PM
Hey, great to hear that.. I dont know why, but the board censor doesnt like the name of F u kuoka. Thats why it is spelled with spaces in my avatar..

Where are you know?. I am always looking for non Japanese players to have a hit with..

Old_Crow
10-22-2007, 08:45 PM
Where are you know?. I am always looking for non Japanese players to have a hit with..

Seattle now although we're back to Nagasaki (Omura actually) every Summer for several weeks around Obon to visit the inlaws.

Might be fun to get together for a hit although August is nasty for outdoor sports, we always travel all over Kyushu eating our favorite foods and visiting old haunts. Surfing down in Miyazaki is more my speed for August in Kyushu...!

ohplease
10-22-2007, 09:15 PM
What's with the opinion police?

Personally, good riddance to Head's use of twaron. Nothing makes a racket feel like garbage faster than aramid in the layup. Secondly, Wilsons have always played stiffer than Heads because Wilsons are consistently stiffer torsionally. Great if you like how that feels - I don't.

I dig torsionally wobbly sticks like the Dunlop MW200g, Head twin tube frames, and classic Prince CTS sticks - you might not. So what?

In total, this really isn't that hard. You pick your vendor, and either go for their player's frame (6.1, or prestige mp), or player's tweener (pure drive or instinct) and call it a day. Everything else can be pretty much solved with lead/stringing, anyway.

To the OP - thanks for your comments. Don't let the haters get you down. At the end of the day, no one crowned them the grand high poobah and ultimate arbiter of racket truth (except themselves - what's with recent practice of name checking one's self in the third person in thread titles? Like "Joe Nobody's smelly opinion on something maybe two other people care about." Tres ******-ay).

kumat63
10-23-2007, 04:50 AM
So did Head change their grips to a more square, rather than rectangular shape?

It felt like a rounder grip to me... subtly so though, so I'd like to hear if anyone else noticed the same thing?

keithchircop
10-23-2007, 05:03 AM
The ps 6.0 95 has far less power than any prestige.

According to USRSA:

Wilson PS 6.0 95
Headsize 95
SW 310
Flex 70
3pts headlight

It has a USRSA power rating of 2091. That's 200 more than the newer prestiges scored.

The least powerful Prestige: Head Prestige Tour 600
Headsize 89.5
SW 311
Flex 58
12pts headlight

USRSA power rating 1680.

kumat63
10-23-2007, 05:18 AM
As I said, I'm not an expert at all. I had a short (1 1/2 season) very undistinguished Div. 1 tennis career at a very undistinguished small college 25 years ago. And I took a long time off from the game. But I do know what I like in a frame, opinions which have formed from more than a few years experience whacking the little green ball around (going back to when they were all white) in practice and tourneys. I'm a pusher basically, so control is key with me and feel is important to me for having a good sense of where the ball is going.

My experience with Wilson frames is very limited. I've never found one that I really dug the feel of. So it hasn't inclined me to play much with them. I'm not saying any of them are bad, just that there is a feeling of stiffness or crispness to me that I don't like as much as the recent players frames from Head and Yonex I've tried (the feel/performance of the RDX500 MP was very appealing to me, and my second favorite racquet). To each his own. I've never had tennis elbow in my life, so my preferences are really for performance not arm friendliness.

I think there is some talking past one another going on here. Pejorative terms like "hollow" and "tinny" just confuse the discussion. I've used them too, and I'm sorry for that. I just meant them only for comparison, not as absolute judgments. I'm sure there are better feeling sticks out there than the LM Prestige, but from the batch of frames (Yonex, Head, Wilson, Prince) that I tried when I bought my pair 3 years ago, it worked best for me. It just doesn't transmit much vibration through the frame and I like that. As it gets older, it feels even softer--what I call "soft" anyway, but maybe it's "mushy" to others. Whatever.

The Microgel was interesting to me. It felt like a stiffer hoop than the LM but didn't transmit anymore vibration. It didn't feel as soft to me as my old (and very beat-up) LM. But it felt just as "muted" if that makes sense? I'd really like to put the same string with the same tension in the MG (but it's not my racquet and I couldn't talk my stringer into it). I'm comparing apples and oranges here when the racquets don't have the same string, I know. But even so it was fun for me to compare. And the performance of the LM and the Microgel were very similar for me, even though the feel was different in ways that are not easy to explain. If I had to guess, I'd say the LM feels like it absorbs vibration by flexing more in the hoop while the MG felt like it flexed less in the hoop, as much or more in the throat, but still transmitted a very muted sensation--maybe more "solid" instead of "soft", but still pretty close to what I like and less stiff feeling to me than a Flexpoint Prestige which was to me getting closer to that crisp/stiffer feeling I associate with Wilson 6.1...

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 05:18 AM
What you guys are saying is the same as someone saying Burgundy is better than Bordeaux and if you think different, you haven't got a clue.

Notice I have been neutral on this thread, I could have torn everyone apart. OP is division one so he knows what he likes. But fact still remains he has not tried an iprestige MP nor a PT630. It is like saying Bordeaux is an excellent wine when you have not tried another wine which could possibly be better. I offered insight to where Kevin might get some PT630 frames. That is all I could do.

ollinger
10-23-2007, 05:23 AM
I noticed instantly, thinking "gee, I wonder what Michael Chaho has to say about all of this" as I read the thread. Thank you, benevolent one, for not tearing it all apart.

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 05:25 AM
Personally, good riddance to Head's use of twaron. Nothing makes a racket feel like garbage faster than aramid in the layup. I dig torsionally wobbly sticks like the Dunlop MW200g, Head twin tube frames, you might not. So what?



Twaron makes the HEAD play like MW200G, MUTED and DAMP! And Twin Tube frames from the early 90's had Twaron. SO I presume you DIG GARBAGE FRAMES. Not to worry I do too :-)

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 05:33 AM
I noticed instantly, thinking "gee, I wonder what Michael Chaho has to say about all of this" as I read the thread. Thank you, benevolent one, for not tearing it all apart.

you are welcome.

BTW are you still chocking CROW feathers ollinger :-)

chaho's might be thinner because he likes to remove the paint on the racquet to increase flexibility, per his prior thread on the subject.

ohplease
10-23-2007, 08:16 AM
Twaron makes the HEAD play like MW200G, MUTED and DAMP! And Twin Tube frames from the early 90's had Twaron. SO I presume you DIG GARBAGE FRAMES. Not to worry I do too :-)

1st, from here: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/LMRAD/LMRADReview.html

"To trace the history of the Radical line we must first mention the Radical's most famous proponent, Andre Agassi. With the signing of Agassi to Head in 1993, Head launched its first Radical series racquet. Called the Trysis 260 Radical in the US market, this first Radical featured an Integrated Damping System and a 50 percent high modulus graphite, 5 percent Twaron and 45 percent graphite construction. One year after its inception Agassi used it to capture the US Open title, becoming the first unseeded player to win the Open in 28 years. The first update to the Radical line came in 1995 with the introduction of the TwinTube Radical. The inner hard shell of TwinTube technology is made of pure graphite while the outer shell consists of a soft, absorbing polyamide. The designed benefit of TwinTube construction was to increase ball acceleration and provide more feel. In the Summer of 1997, the TwinTube Radical received a cosmetic update to stay in step with the ever evolving fashion of Agassi."

2nd, from here: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/RT98XL/RT98XLReview.html

"Composition 100% Graphite"

In other words, you stand corrected.

vsbabolat
10-23-2007, 08:34 AM
1st, from here: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/LMRAD/LMRADReview.html

"To trace the history of the Radical line we must first mention the Radical's most famous proponent, Andre Agassi. With the signing of Agassi to Head in 1993, Head launched its first Radical series racquet. Called the Trysis 260 Radical in the US market, this first Radical featured an Integrated Damping System and a 50 percent high modulus graphite, 5 percent Twaron and 45 percent graphite construction. One year after its inception Agassi used it to capture the US Open title, becoming the first unseeded player to win the Open in 28 years. The first update to the Radical line came in 1995 with the introduction of the TwinTube Radical. The inner hard shell of TwinTube technology is made of pure graphite while the outer shell consists of a soft, absorbing polyamide. The designed benefit of TwinTube construction was to increase ball acceleration and provide more feel. In the Summer of 1997, the TwinTube Radical received a cosmetic update to stay in step with the ever evolving fashion of Agassi."

2nd, from here: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/RT98XL/RT98XLReview.html

"Composition 100% Graphite"

In other words, you stand corrected.

Actually the Radical Tour TwinTube has a graphite inner shell with a Polyamide outer shell. I took this from the 1996 and 1998 Head Catalog.
I cant put my hands on the 1992, 1993, or 1994 catalog. They are somewhere in my house. But I can easily put my hands on the 1995, 1996, 1998, and 1999 catalog. These catalogs were for the U.S. market. The original grey Radical Tour TwinTube that was released in the summer of 1995 and in my 1996 year catalog says it is a "graphite inner tube with a softer vibration dampening outer tube" . The 1998 catalog is better it says "the inner shell of TwinTube technology is made of stiff, high-modulus graphite. The outer shell is made os soft Polyamide to improve both string and frame dampening."
Again beam width is 21mm oversize and 20mm midplus.
So the overall percentage in the Radical Tour TwinTube is most likely 80% or 90% graphite and 20% or 10% Polyamide.

vsbabolat
10-23-2007, 09:02 AM
I just want to add that these numbers of 100% graphite racquets is nothing more than marketing B.S. You have to have some sort of epoxy resin or fiberglass to glue the carbon fibers together.
Here is a good explanation from part of a very good article.
Racquet Lay-Up
There is no such thing as a 100% graphite racquet. At least 40% of a frame's material is resin, or matrix, as it is more commonly known. Hyper or not, graphite fiber is actually useless without the resin matrix which binds the fibers, transfers the load to the fibers, and protects them. Together, the fiber and matrix make up the composite. The strength and stiffness of the composite will fall somewhere between those of the fiber and matrix. So even if you start with Hyper Carbon, by the nature of the beast, the prepreg is semi-hyper. But that's true of all grades of graphites, including Limp-ite which becomes semi-limp (though I don't know if that is better or worse).
This was taken from a thread about grahite. Follow the link for the full article.

hyogen
10-23-2007, 09:08 AM
nice review. I think I'll be trying out the prestige pro as soon as it comes out. I don't think the prestige is THE racquet for me...but I'm gonna try the i.prestige Mid XL and review it anyways. hopefully I'll fall in love with it. (I always hope that when I pick up a new racquet to try)

kumat63
10-23-2007, 11:37 AM
Notice I have been neutral on this thread, I could have torn everyone apart. OP is division one so he knows what he likes. But fact still remains he has not tried an iprestige MP nor a PT630. It is like saying Bordeaux is an excellent wine when you have not tried another wine which could possibly be better. I offered insight to where Kevin might get some PT630 frames. That is all I could do.

Well, I know what I like but I have big gaps in my knowledge of the Prestige line--which I've tried to be quite forthright about from the start. Clearly I've missed out on what are widely regarded as the "fine wines". I'd be curious though Michael, on how you compare the Microgel MP 18x20 to the FXP and LM Prestiges? I read your preliminary review but did you find the LM and FXP to feel the same or did you find the FXP a bit stiffer? And where do you put the MG?

predrag
10-23-2007, 11:49 AM
Yes, i obviously have no idea about feel and want a more powerful racket while switched to the PS 6.0 95 .

In regards to your comments about the FXP vs lm prestige.. plenty of people agree that the FXP is far superior. It is a much more stable racket. You mention the TW scores on the reviews, but did you read the text? They came to the conclusion that it was a good upgrade over the LM because it was more stable from all areas of the court.

If you think the LM prestige feels ANYTHING like the PC600, or other classic rackets you are sorely mistaken. NO classic racket i have hit with feels as hollow, and cheap feeling as the LM prestige.

this guy sounds like Atila The Tennis Bum.

Regards, Predrag

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 12:01 PM
In other words, you stand corrected.

I beg to differ, the outer shell of the Twin Tube has a small % of Twaron. I guess some people believe everything written on TW review as if it were a bible........

Guess you agreed then that the MW200G feels just as muted and damp as a TWARON PT630. It is very odd that you would love an MW200G but would hate a PT630 which has twaron? If anything the closest frame in terms of feel to the PT630 is the MW200G.

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 12:02 PM
Well, I know what I like but I have big gaps in my knowledge of the Prestige line--which I've tried to be quite forthright about from the start. Clearly I've missed out on what are widely regarded as the "fine wines". I'd be curious though Michael, on how you compare the Microgel MP 18x20 to the FXP and LM Prestiges? I read your preliminary review but did you find the LM and FXP to feel the same or did you find the FXP a bit stiffer? And where do you put the MG?

I will get back to you on this gotta go

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 01:15 PM
Actually the Radical Tour TwinTube has a 100% graphite inner shell with a Polyamide outer shell. I took this from the 1996 and 1998 Head Catalog.

So the overall percentage in the Radical Tour TwinTube is most likely 80% or 90% graphite and 20% or 10% Polyamide.

Good one VS, being proven wrong with factual data from HEAD rather than words written on a TW review is so............ inconvenient :-)

hyogen
10-23-2007, 01:18 PM
just out of curiosity, what level player are you michael chaho?

I'm only like 3.5 or something...but i still highly scrutinize all my things/hobbies such as tennis, snowboards, paintball guns, etc etc etc...

ohplease
10-23-2007, 01:59 PM
Good one VS, being proven wrong with factual data from HEAD rather than words written on a TW review is so............ inconvenient :-)

And yet nowhere does it say polyamide is the same thing as twaron. At best they're in the same general family of materials - which somehow, in your tortured logic, the same thing.

Hey, kevlar's in the same family. Do Kevlar and Isospeed (polyamide) play similarly? No. Heck, Head Rip (also polyamide) and Isospeed? No. Do the classic prestiges, with twaron, feel similar to the classic pro staffs, with kevlar? No.

So, somehow, head's twin tube sticks (polyamide shell - not twaron) qualify as having aramid, specifically twaron, in the layup? No. Even if it were the same material, the difference in construction definitely matters - such that twin tube frames simply don't feel like dumpy, kevlar or twaron doped sticks.

In fact, let's put it even more starkly - flexpoint and liquidmetal prestiges still have that polyamide shell - so they play just like the classic twaron frames, right?

vsbabolat
10-23-2007, 03:09 PM
And yet nowhere does it say polyamide is the same thing as twaron. At best they're in the same general family of materials - which somehow, in your tortured logic, the same thing.

Hey, kevlar's in the same family. Do Kevlar and Isospeed (polyamide) play similarly? No. Heck, Head Rip (also polyamide) and Isospeed? No. Do the classic prestiges, with twaron, feel similar to the classic pro staffs, with kevlar? No.

So, somehow, head's twin tube sticks (polyamide shell - not twaron) qualify as having aramid, specifically twaron, in the layup? No. Even if it were the same material, the difference in construction definitely matters - such that twin tube frames simply don't feel like dumpy, kevlar or twaron doped sticks.

In fact, let's put it even more starkly - flexpoint and liquidmetal prestiges still have that polyamide shell - so they play just like the classic twaron frames, right?

The manufacturer of many HEAD strings is Isospeed. The current HEAD strings made by Isospeed are Intellistring, Intellitour, RIP Perfect Power, RIP Perfect Control, RIP Control, Ultra Tour, Sonic Pro, and RIP Blend. The Polyamide used in the HEAD strings and the Isospeed strings are the same. Also Isospeed supplies polyamide for HEAD skis also.

*Edit: I forgot that Head C3 Rocket string is also made by Isospeed

Pro_Tour_630
10-23-2007, 03:14 PM
The manufacturer of many HEAD strings is Isospeed. The current HEAD strings made by Isospeed are Intellistring, Intellitour, RIP Perfect Power, RIP Perfect Control, RIP Control, Ultra Tour, Sonic Pro, and RIP Blend. The Polyamide used in the HEAD strings and the Isospeed strings are the same. Also Isospeed supplies polyamide for HEAD skis also.

What can I say........... OWNED, as usual you are spot on

Ohplease's post (poisoning the well) is so............irrelevant for even a reply, not sure whats his beef with TWARON? Could be he associates it with moi? I pointed to MW200G which does not even have "Twaron" YET it still has the dampened/muted feel many like similar to the PT630. All I was trying to say that older Twintube had some DAMPENING characteristics in the outer shell to reduce vibration.(tawron kevlar, polyamide etc... whatever) it is not %100 pure graphite like ohplease wants us to believe. Heck we even discussed it here

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=113666&postcount=6

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=697973&postcount=172

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1184364&postcount=43

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1184406&postcount=44