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View Full Version : The forehand that changed Wimbledon history


davey25
11-16-2004, 07:13 AM
Right now Navratilova has 9 Wimbledons, Wills Moody 8, Graf 7, Dorethea Douglas 7. If Graf had won the 1990 Wimbledon instead of Navratilova Navratilova would have 8, Wills Moody 8, and Graf 8. There would be a 3-way tie for the record.

In 1990 Zina Garrison was down match point against Monica Seles in the quarters. She cleaned the line with a forehand to save it and came back to win the match. Zina upset Steffi in the semis in a shocking 3-setter. Zina lost easily to Martina in the final. Change an inch of that forehand and Zina loses to Monica.
No way would Monica have beaten Steffi in the semis that year. Steffi likely would not have let an aging Martina beat her in the final. That one forehand changed Wimbledon history.

Dedans Penthouse
11-16-2004, 07:26 AM
No way would Monica have beaten Steffi in the semis that year.......................... That one forehand changed Wimbledon history.

Can you really assume (guarantee) that "NO WAY" Monica would've beaten Steffi (knife or no knife)?

Another forehand that "changed" Wimbledon history? Bjorn Borg's.

davey25
11-16-2004, 07:28 AM
Monica would certainly not have beaten Graf in 1990. She was the underdog against Graf on grass even when she dominated, no way would she have beaten her when Monica wasnt even #1 yet.

alfa164164
11-16-2004, 07:43 AM
Wimbledon 1989 (R16): Graf defeats Seles 6-0, 6-1
Wimbledon 1992 (Final): Graf defeats Seles 6-2, 6-1
Safe to say Graf would have beat Seles in 1990 on grass.

davey25
11-16-2004, 07:47 AM
The question is whether she would have beaten Navratilova in the final. Because Navratilova was aging, I think a player of Graf's greatness likely would not have to her. Thus creating the 3-way tie for the record.

Dedans Penthouse
11-16-2004, 09:28 AM
Wimbledon 1989 (R16): Graf defeats Seles 6-0, 6-1
Wimbledon 1992 (Final): Graf defeats Seles 6-2, 6-1


Ouch!

OK, I'll grant you that Seles probably was the 1st cow that didn't like plodding around on grass, but Steffi had a clear path to the finals sitting there on a silver platter, and yet she still couldn't pull the trigger. I'll take those scores listed above as an indicator that, yes, Graf probably would've been the favorite the year Navratilova and Garrison played in the finals, but when I think of Seles' rediculous winning percentage in Grand Slams during her pre-Gunther-idiot days....hmnm, she might've been a cow, but, you ever heard of killer bees? Or killer whales? She was a combo of both: she was a killer cow! A killer cow and how!!

But, being the stubborn hick that I am, I'll say Borg's forehand "literally" (stroke-wise and otherwise), represented an historic change by challenging the notion that said you couldn't play "topspin/baseline" tennis on Wimbledon's grass courts. Borg's forehand "legitimized" and thus paved the way for Graf and Seles to play tennis on grass from the backcourt.

(but, me thinks you're a Graf fan who thought she was better than Seles anyway) :wink:

Rabbit
11-16-2004, 09:31 AM
In my history book, it says that Rodney George Laver's forehand was the one that changed Wimbledon forever.

Kevin Patrick
11-16-2004, 10:12 AM
Not so sure Steffi would've beaten Monica in 1990. Steffi was not at her best that Wimbledon partly due to intense media coverage of her father's affair & paternity suit.
Also Seles was on a major tear, on a 40 match win streak(including two straight set wins over Graf)
The 16 year old Seles was fearless & hungry. It was early in her career & I don't think she had any mental block over playing on grass at that point. Looking back that might have been her best chance to win Wimbledon.
If Graf had made the final though, I'm sure she would have beaten Navratilova, the match-up was good for Graf & Martina would have been extremely nervous going for the record against the player who had handled her fairly comfortably the previous 2 finals.

Dedans Penthouse
11-16-2004, 11:08 AM
In my history book, it says that Rodney George Laver's forehand was the one that changed Wimbledon forever.

Well, in my history book, it says that Rodney George Ringo John Paul Laver's forehand was hit against a bunch o' Casper Milquetoasts in the pre-Open era, and that the real "dudes" were on the professional tour. No! No! No! You Rabbit (I was told), are left-handed and Laver's a lefty as well.......oh it's so stinkin' obvious where you're coming from!
"Waiter! Waiter! May I have a glass of objectivity, please? This southpaw is makin' me ill!"

.....and, Seles was a killer who feared no one.

alfa164164
11-16-2004, 11:41 AM
Kevin - would've been happy to take that bet (and your money) in 1990. Are you saying an 18 year old Seles wasn't fearless and hungry in the '92 final or do you subscribe to the "she lost because of the controversy over her grunting" bit. Seems Graf was the better fast court player period and Seles gets the nod on dirt, no need to romanticize that if all the stars were aligned Seles could've would've should've won. I'm not even a big fan of Steffi Graf (although you gotta like that forehand), it just seems alot of people like yourself unrealistically continue to believe that Monica was going to improve parts of her game (serve, volley, physical conditioning later in her career) which she had no desire or ability to do at any point of her career pre or post stabbing for any extended period of time. At least Dedans Penthouse can rightfully joke about "the cow". Graf's strong suits - serve, forehand, movement, even her slice backhand was effective on grass - worked to her favor on fast courts, whereas Seles stong points worked better on slower surfaces.
It seems you think Seles (if she had never been stabbed) would've developed an all-surface all-court game like Federer.

Rabbit
11-17-2004, 05:45 AM
Well, in my history book, it says that Rodney George Ringo John Paul Laver's forehand was hit against a bunch o' Casper Milquetoasts in the pre-Open era, and that the real "dudes" were on the professional tour. No! No! No! You Rabbit (I was told), are left-handed and Laver's a lefty as well.......oh it's so stinkin' obvious where you're coming from!
"Waiter! Waiter! May I have a glass of objectivity, please? This southpaw is makin' me ill!"

.....and, Seles was a killer who feared no one.


Well, my history book can beat the crap out of your history book.

Dedans Penthouse
11-17-2004, 05:55 AM
[quote="Rabbit Well, my history book can beat the crap out of your history book.[/quote]

That ain't nothin' to brag on! My histohree book has got "culcha" it don't need to fight, no suh! But how come YO' histohree book done got all dem pages stuck together 'round that picture of Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton dueling? :shock: :P :P

davey25
11-17-2004, 07:19 AM
Kevin Patrick, Monica was even lucky to beat Steffi at the French Open in 90. Graf would have won the match had she converted one of her 4 first set points. She would have to be playing well enough to spank Steffi on clay to beat her on grass a month later. Also while Monica was less developed in 89 than 90 she was already fearless and hungry, and lost 6-0, 6-1 to Graf at the 89 Wimbledon after almost beating her at the 89 French. Monica also did not have a mental blcok of playing on grass in 92 either, she didnt develop that if she did until 97 after her disaesterous 96 Wimbledon. She just isnt as great on it as other surfaces. While she was on a tear, the tear was on clay, and prior on hard courts against depleted opponents, she was still ranked only 3, her best chance to win on her worst surface would have been in a year she dominated not a year she wasnt even 1, and she couldnt do even in those years. There is no way in hell, in my opinion, Graf would have let Monica beat her in the Wimbledon semis that year after giving away the French final, in fact she would have crushed her I believe.

Even in the miracle Monica had beaten Steffi you are saying she may have won Wimbledon that year. Monica was also unlikely to beat Navratilova who she only beat 7-6 in the third on hard courts later that summer. Obviously beating Navratilova on grass for Monica is infinitely harder than hard courts. Also she barely beat Navratilova in 92, when she was the dominant player not the world 3 like 90, and Navratilova wasnt playing nearly as well as the 1990 grass court season. So she was hugely unlikely to beat either Graf or Navratilova. Even if you forsee a remote possability of her beating one of them, she would have had to beat both to win the title. Now that would really have been impossable.

baseliner
11-17-2004, 07:33 AM
Hold on there Dedans! Rod Laver's forehand (and the rest of his game) dominated the tennis tour for years. Not only did he win the grand slam two different times, he dominated the pro tour before open tennis. Your point about his domination during the pre-open era is simply incorrect. He turned pro and was #1 on the pro tour, then after open tennis came back and won the Grand Slam during the open era. Roy Emerson may be who you are thinking of dominating the "Casper Milquetoasts" of the pre open era while the real "dudes" were on the professional tour (being beaten by Rodney George Laver. And by the way I am not a left hander.

Rabbit
11-17-2004, 08:17 AM
Well, my history book can beat the crap out of your history book.

That ain't nothin' to brag on! My histohree book has got "culcha" it don't need to fight, no suh! But how come YO' histohree book done got all dem pages stuck together 'round that picture of Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton dueling? :shock: :P :P

Oh yeah?

I knew you'd appreciate the snappy comeback. And, I'm getting this real funny picture in my mind of you dressed as Foghorn Leghorn.

Dedans Penthouse
11-17-2004, 11:42 AM
Hold on there Dedans! Rod Laver's forehand (and the rest of his game) dominated the tennis tour for years. Not only did he win the grand slam two different times, he dominated the pro tour before open tennis. Your point about his domination during the pre-open era is simply incorrect. He turned pro and was #1 on the pro tour, then after open tennis came back and won the Grand Slam during the open era. Roy Emerson may be who you are thinking of dominating the "Casper Milquetoasts" of the pre open era while the real "dudes" were on the professional tour (being beaten by Rodney George Laver. And by the way I am not a left hander.

baseliner: No argument here! I just find it impossible to resist tweaking his Rabbitship on his Rabbitsh*it whenever I get the chance, for as you can see, he has no qualms about "returning the favor" and step-child slappin' me back in return. I loved Laver. Fact is, "Muscles" Rosewall beating the Rocket in that 5 set WCT TV extravaganza (in Dallas?) was a TV bummer for me as a little kid. I'll tell you what a Laver-fan/****** I was when it came to watching pro tennis: when I was a young punk, my ol' man once took me to the U.S. Open at the West Side T.C. (Forest Hills Stadium) to see Rod Laver playing Jaime Fillol of Brazil, which was followed by Arthur Ashe and Ross Case.

Now, since I didn't play tennis until my 20's, I didn't really know the "do's and don'ts" of proper behavior at a tennis match. Laver and Fillol were playing some great points which elicted some serious roars from the crowd, so I got caught up in the "crowd buzz" and thought that tennis in front of a big crowd was not much different in that regard than a Ranger hockey game at the Garden. Big mistake! Anyway, 1st set: nip and tuck the whole way--Jaime Fillol takes charge of this one particular point and forces Laver to hit a "sitter" of a defensive lob, and just as Filol was about to smash the overhead away, I jumped up and shreik "MISS IT!!" ....... to the utter, I mean utter mortification of my ol' man, who quickly sat me down and hissed something to the effect of "not cool, dude!" while the spectators all around were "shhhhusshing" like a million snooty rattlesnakes and overall acting like the HORRIFIED old biddy/lady who faints at the dinner table in that Polemer All-Fruit PRESERVES commercial when the "hillybilly" type asks her: "Hey! Can ya pleeeze pass th' JELLY?!"

But I digress: I vaguely recall Rocket pulling out the 1st set and running away with it from there, even if (warning: non-sequitur) davey25 thinks (incorrectly-wink!) that Graf was better than Seles..... :wink:

Rabbit
11-17-2004, 12:15 PM
I say...I say....I say...I say, boy! That ain't no chicken hawk.


I played against the Snake once.

davey25
11-18-2004, 06:13 AM
I dont think Graf was better than Seles once Seles reached her prime. I do think she was better on grass though, and in 90 Seles wasnt even in her prime yet, even though she was still great.
Read my discussion title on "no way in hell is Graf the best ever" and you will see that I certainly do not believe Graf is better than Seles but for the stabbing. I did however think how interesting it is that one shot could have changed three woman with 9, sole possession of 1st, 8, sole possession of 2nd, 7 multiple tie for third, all-time at Wimbledon, to a 3-way tie for the record. That is all.