Foreign College Tennis Players

[Tipster]

How does everybody feel about using tax money to give scholarships to foreign players who learn to play with Government subsidies? In my day, most people who were decent could get some type of scholarship somewhere. There are many more really good players today, but they don't have anywhere to go. This is a disgrace! I believe that alumni should let their schools know their thoughts on the subject which I have already done.

[Fedace]

How does everybody feel about using tax money to give scholarships to foreign players who learn to play with Government subsidies? In my day, most people who were decent could get some type of scholarship somewhere. There are many more really good players today, but they don't have anywhere to go. This is a disgrace! I believe that alumni should let their schools know their thoughts on the subject which I have already done.

and why you think of foreign players instead of US players ?? I don't have anything against foreign players but there are too many US players that are very poor and parents have no money, that really need scholarships to get thru the college and join the real world. so i say give more scholarships to US players.

[Tipster]

and why you think of foreign players instead of US players ?? I don't have anything against foreign players but there are too many US players that are very poor and parents have no money, that really need scholarships to get thru the college and join the real world. so i say give more scholarships to US players.

I have nothing against foreign players. Their countries do not reciprocate for one thing. My understanding is this is the only Country in the world which incorporates athletics in Colleges. Another thing is our players start later and they could still be improving in College. Finally, hardly anyone can afford a college scholarships these days. Do you think there are a lot of people who have $40,000+ a year to throw down the hole?

[racingdad23]

The 4.5 rule is bad enough. Then you take and give 1/2 that to foreign players. That leaves very little for American tennis players seeking a tennis scholarship. My junior has been consistantly top 10 and top 5 in USTA state rankings and he has about a snowball's chance in hell to get a scholarship...make that a snowballs chance in hell to get "half" a scholarship.

Its a problem but it will take "alot" of voices before anyone will ever listen...

[tenniscrazed]

The reason is really pressure that had been placed on the part of the coaches as a result of title IX. Either perform or the program gets cut. Adam Steinberg, Head Coach at Pepperdine told me that he had no choice. Only one US player on 1/2 scholarship the main reason was that he had to recruit oversees players. The "cream of the US crop" was taken by Baylor, Georgia, Stanford, UCLA. So like many other coaches they went overseas otherwise, no job. It's not about the foreign versus US it's about performance at that point in a tennis player and a college coaches career. By the way the other thing that was mentioned was that non US players are more "mature" and travel better again boils down to performance issues.

[prostaff18]

If you are a good player then you will be recruited. Very few of the players in college tennis get a full ride. Most of the best players in college are foreign but the majority is from the US. Our team is all from the US, and our coach wont even look at players from outside the US. He says that most teams are the same way. Most of the teams have like 4 scholarships to give and they can break it up as they see fit. So if they want to give it all to a foreign player they should. Also to the guy with a good junior: going into college as a freshman no one gets a full ride unless you are an amazing player. What they do is they can get the players some good academic scholarships for some not so good grades.

[Tipster]

If you are a good player then you will be recruited. Very few of the players in college tennis get a full ride. Most of the best players in college are foreign but the majority is from the US. Our team is all from the US, and our coach wont even look at players from outside the US. He says that most teams are the same way. Most of the teams have like 4 scholarships to give and they can break it up as they see fit. So if they want to give it all to a foreign player they should. Also to the guy with a good junior: going into college as a freshman no one gets a full ride unless you are an amazing player. What they do is they can get the players some good academic scholarships for some not so good grades.


Most D1 players are foreign. Can we just quit paying taxes until this stops? How about a lawsuit? What about legislation? The most logical thing to do is quit giving donations to schools who do this.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Before you all get in a snit- Please board the "Clue Bus" and engage brains- remove feet from mouths.

The "Tax dollars" are pretty far removed from the issue, there is the Althletic department budget than the University budget.

"Legislation" ? Oh, great, get those pin heads involved- who do you think came up with Title IX, as an example of unintended consequences- the defense by schools called "Proportionality" is driving Men's minor sports to
extinction.

Foreign players are straight forward better players and students, period-
You think some bone head American kid that has been "home schooled"
(read: "no schooled") because of tennis ambitions can speak two languages?

You are a coach- Win, you are employed- Lose, you are not. Pretty simple math attached to that proposition.
American schrott? Nien,Danke.

[Tipster]

You're telling me that the athletic budget stands by its own? I seriously doubt that, but even if it were true, domestic players still wind up getting cut out. And what about the fact that other countries do not have athletic programs in their institutions of higher learning? You sound rather bigoted toward domestic players to me (reverse xenophobia). Also, you need to work on your grammer and your spelling. Perhaps you should have worn a hat out on the court. Just a suggestion. Have a nice day.;)

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Oh, the comments on grammar and spelling, the last resorts when you can't really argue any point made.

First, I have to laugh when you tell the posters on this board to quit making those wing construction-size donations to the schools... This bunch pulls two papers out of the news box on the way into work, and doesn't even tip properly at the local diner- pull donations? pffffht....yeah Columbia is shaking over that posibility.
Tax reform or legislation? lets just let that lie for now, As people who believe in that "fix" still have thoughts of Lotto winnings, public "servants" and fairies.

You really have no clear idea how slim a margin ALL Men's minor sports are hanging by, do you?
The only solution the radical feminists and the NCAA can come up with is to suggest cutting football scholarships, as if that money would magically appear in other sports.
When the OTHER shoe of Title IX drops- equal coaching and athletic administration positions, Hello proportionality, goodbye men's minor sports.

But lets keep this simple, an get back to the bottom line for a Coach-Win/keep job, Lose/lose job.
So your choice-
You can have a 20 + year old player with a few years experience scraping it out in a minor tennis pro tour (and excellent SATs/boards) who would give a couple of fingers to play for you -OR- some middle of the road native player who really wasn't paying much attention to his home schooling, and comes in thinking you are lucky to have him for a couple years on his way to tour stardom.
Are we supposed to continue to deny the idea that merit is how we select
who plays and who doesn't, or would you like even more "set aside" programs
set up to keep nose counters busy?

[cuPlay]

Long time reader, first time posting---
Tipster, I don't think foreign players are a recent issue, and I think that segmented competition in the USA is to blame for lack of player development. At the D1 school I attended in the mid-1970's, we had several foriegn players and faced a lot of foreign competition. The D1 team had the #2 Indian junior and the #1 New Zealand Jr. and one German, if my memory serves me. I didn't have the opportunity to travel the intl jr. tours, but playing these characters that did, improved my game...

I don't know how exactly how the money works these days, but I doubt there is any substantial taxpayer money going to fund college tennis. Most big school athletic programs are funded through football and basketball and booster organizations. Maybe someone else knows more and say?

There are rules the NCAA could enforce to level the field. Once you turn pro, you should not be able to go back to play college in any form. Some players don't start college till after failed tour attempts and you get the 24 year old "freshman"...anybody hear of someone in the NFL going back to school to play football?

The NCAA could allow contact and practice matches between high school and college players. This rule is obviously set up for big sport recruiting controls but in other countries, the juniors benefit from hitting regularly with older players, (often with their natl. tennis federations footing the bill) and in the US, I don't believe a junior can even practice with a local college team or have much contact with the coach, due to the regulations. If I am in error here, someone else can set me straight...

[kingdaddy41788]

Before you all get in a snit- Please board the "Clue Bus" and engage brains- remove feet from mouths.

The "Tax dollars" are pretty far removed from the issue, there is the Althletic department budget than the University budget.

"Legislation" ? Oh, great, get those pin heads involved- who do you think came up with Title IX, as an example of unintended consequences- the defense by schools called "Proportionality" is driving Men's minor sports to
extinction.

Foreign players are straight forward better players and students, period-
You think some bone head American kid that has been "home schooled"
(read: "no schooled") because of tennis ambitions can speak two languages?

You are a coach- Win, you are employed- Lose, you are not. Pretty simple math attached to that proposition.
American schrott? Nien,Danke.

You can't say they're better students. You have no basis for that whatsoever. Some may be better students, but I assure you that others are not. Better players maybe, but you can't speak to their abilities as a student.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Ok, I understand I cannot possibly state with any assurance better students-smarter students, given.
But better players- yes.
Do you want to be the first to state you want players selected not on merit -but to start "special" set asides in sports?
Personally, it leaves kind of a bad taste in my mouth to argue some set asides are better than others in athletic competition.

I know a high school player who "hits" with college players as in "hitting lessons" College player gets a little pizza money, high schooler improves leaps and bounds, coach gets informal "heads up" from his player- everybody wins.

[Pusher]

But lets keep this simple, an get back to the bottom line for a Coach-Win/keep job, Lose/lose job.
So your choice-
You can have a 20 + year old player with a few years experience scraping it out in a minor tennis pro tour (and excellent SATs/boards) who would give a couple of fingers to play for you -OR- some middle of the road native player who really wasn't paying much attention to his home schooling, and comes in thinking you are lucky to have him for a couple years on his way to tour stardom.
Are we supposed to continue to deny the idea that merit is how we select
who plays and who doesn't, or would you like even more "set aside" programs
set up to keep nose counters busy?

I know a lot of D-1 players and not one of them broke 1000 on their SAT. And most of them come from countries where their native language is about as useful in the modern world as italian is in a mexican restaurant. They study english from the 1st grade on because it is absolutely necessary. Speaking two languages is not a qualifiaction for intelligence.
For most of them playing US college tennis is all about getting the heck out of whatever crappy country they live in and getting into the que for a green card. Of course that is a generalization but its as accurate as your characterization of american players.
I just met a 23 year old German player who claims, quite proudly, "I come to play tennis, not go to stupid class".

Selection based on merit? Sure.

[sureshs]

Why all this hate towards home schooled students? Are most US-born college tennis players home schooled?

[sureshs]

When the OTHER shoe of Title IX drops- equal coaching and athletic administration positions, Hello proportionality, goodbye men's minor sports.


That is how it is: when the opportunities are equalized, previous positions of privilege diminish. The marginal men will suffer, as they had been disproportionately pampered before. They can shout all they want, and listen to more of that Limbaugh talk, but everyone is shrewd now and no girl will surrender her opportunities anymore to some guy because of his anatomical differences.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Pusher
From an athletic merit standpoint, then, am I to assume you would like to be the first poster to ask for "special" spots for American players?
How about a purse and matching pearls?

The issue is how a you look at the current way players are selected- Sit and cry, or look in the mirror. A helping hand? look at the end of your wrist- Pick up the basket and get back out there.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Suresh
....and marginal women will take those marginal men's spots.Artificial opportunities are still that- artificial. I guess some can live with that. I would be a little more introspective when accepting anything dressed up as anything but "help"- wondering about my abilities when real measurements are assigned.

[_mats_]

Also, you need to work on your grammer and your spelling. Perhaps you should have worn a hat out on the court. Just a suggestion. Have a nice day.;)

that was hilariously ironic.

[raiden031]

I could care less if all D1 tennis teams are 100% fielded by foreign players, however not a single tax dollar should go towards scholarships for these players. ONLY american players should get scholarships that are funded by tax dollars.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Let me be a little more kind; Opportunities cannot,by nature, be "equalized"-
that is why they are called opportunities. Who decides when they are perfectly in balance? you? the NCAA? The government?
It seems like a nice industry to get into, look at all the sweat and ink being thrown around trying to get to this equality.

Most rational people don't think it is necessary to start a Women's water polo team in a state that has NO High school players, so they can fly around the West Coast playing other made up teams in front of no one.
This leads to sitsuations where Women's rowing is being set up, not because women have chronically been discriminated against in rowing "opportunities" but because there are more spots in a skull (boat).

[sureshs]

Let me be a little more kind; Opportunities cannot,by nature, be "equalized"-
that is why they are called opportunities. Who decides when they are perfectly in balance? you? the NCAA? The government?
It seems like a nice industry to get into, look at all the sweat and ink being thrown around trying to get to this equality.

Most rational people don't think it is necessary to start a Women's water polo team in a state that has NO High school players, so they can fly around the West Coast playing other made up teams in front of no one.
This leads to sitsuations where Women's rowing is being set up, not because women have chronically been discriminated against in rowing "opportunities" but because there are more spots in a skull (boat).

Opportunities can be equalized, and have been equalized. Unless you start something, nothing will happen. Once rowing is started, then you might have high school rowers. If it is not started, it can never happen. If you cannot see the progress in women's sports from 1964 till today, you are blind. The people who feel marginalized can keep on complaining. Who decides the balance today? It is the govt, me, you and the courts. Just like who decides any other matter anywhere.

And where did you get the "most rational people" part? Did you do a scientific poll? If you did not, then you are not one of them, for a rational person would not post this as a fact without hard evidence.

Get over it - no one owes any previously pampered male anything. He better get off his butt and start competing with the other guys and rise to the top. Sounds harsh, but that is what it takes to undo thousands of years of one-sided privileges.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Sheesh, Sureshs....
I guess it all depends on whose ox is getting gored- I made the same statement about getting off butts a couple posts ago.
A couple of your notes- did I take a "scientic poll about rational people(?) and "thousands of years of one sided privileges" says more about your thought process than you may want.

If we could just hand over a (treasure chest) of money as compensation for all these misdeeds against women and athletics, I know most posters would go for that WITH THE PROVISO that they take that extorted poltically correct toll and go off to play with it, and not make us watch the results on TV.

[tenniscrazed]

Opportunities can be equalized, and have been equalized. Unless you start something, nothing will happen. Once rowing is started, then you might have high school rowers. If it is not started, it can never happen. If you cannot see the progress in women's sports from 1964 till today, you are blind. The people who feel marginalized can keep on complaining. Who decides the balance today? It is the govt, me, you and the courts. Just like who decides any other matter anywhere.

And where did you get the "most rational people" part? Did you do a scientific poll? If you did not, then you are not one of them, for a rational person would not post this as a fact without hard evidence.

Get over it - no one owes any previously pampered male anything. He better get off his butt and start competing with the other guys and rise to the top. Sounds harsh, but that is what it takes to undo thousands of years of one-sided privileges.

In an earlier post I referred to one very simple piece of legislation called Title IX. This piece of equality legislation is a form of "reverse discrimination" under the disguise of "equality". I agree that the athletes MUST perform. But a male athlete can't change himself to a female athlete in order to receive a water polo, rowing, volleyball or tennis scholarship. The pressure to win placed on the coaches of smaller mens sports (tennis, swimming, water polo) and the like is tremendous and therefore, like it or not, they must recruit from overseas. Simply to keep their jobs and feed their families. If American athletes perform they will get the scholarships if they don't they won't. Simple. The pressure on the coaches is to recruit not for a four year program, but for this years results. No more wins, no more job, or worse no more program.

[Kaptain Karl]

Why all this hate towards home schooled students?I didn't interpret his comments as "hatred" ... just ignorance. I work in the Government School System and I can still admit most home-schooled kids out-perform ours. They get more time in "real academics" and they get a far better Student/Teacher ratio (which offsets the "superior training" of the Public School Teacher.

(Many of my colleagues in the School System refuse to acknowledge this. "Oh well...!")

... no girl will surrender her opportunities anymore to some guy because of his anatomical differences.Wow. You label his stuff as "Limbaugh talk" ... and you immediately post as if you're reciting from the NOW Handbook? That's irony....

... If it is not started, it can never happen. If you cannot see the progress in women's sports from 1964 till today, you are blind. The people who feel marginalized can keep on complaining.

... followed very quickly by ...


Get over it - no one owes any previously pampered male anything. He better get off his butt and start competing with the other guys and rise to the top.Curious. You think the girls' extra advantage is just fine, but the boys should just "rise to the top" on their own abilities.

Apparently the double-standard doesn't strike you as an inequity.

- KK

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

The inumerable personal admissions of failure by posters in education a side,
let me clairify "home schooling/no schooling" to mean those children whose educations are ignored for tennis- either by blind parental ambition, or by parents in the "polo set"- Paris Hilton types, that when they fail at meeting this pipe dream of tennis at least have inheritance.

Back to TOPIC- I have NOT heard one poster speak up and admit they want "special" treatment for american players. One went so far as to say
"No tax dollars to the foreign players" BUT I dare anyone to open a University budget and show me the Tax dollar path to these players.

[Tipster]

Long time reader, first time posting---
Tipster, I don't think foreign players are a recent issue, and I think that segmented competition in the USA is to blame for lack of player development. At the D1 school I attended in the mid-1970's, we had several foriegn players and faced a lot of foreign competition. The D1 team had the #2 Indian junior and the #1 New Zealand Jr. and one German, if my memory serves me. I didn't have the opportunity to travel the intl jr. tours, but playing these characters that did, improved my game...

I don't know how exactly how the money works these days, but I doubt there is any substantial taxpayer money going to fund college tennis. Most big school athletic programs are funded through football and basketball and booster organizations. Maybe someone else knows more and say?

There are rules the NCAA could enforce to level the field. Once you turn pro, you should not be able to go back to play college in any form. Some players don't start college till after failed tour attempts and you get the 24 year old "freshman"...anybody hear of someone in the NFL going back to school to play football?

The NCAA could allow contact and practice matches between high school and college players. This rule is obviously set up for big sport recruiting controls but in other countries, the juniors benefit from hitting regularly with older players, (often with their natl. tennis federations footing the bill) and in the US, I don't believe a junior can even practice with a local college team or have much contact with the coach, due to the regulations. If I am in error here, someone else can set me straight...

You stated that you played in the 70's and your game improved against the international players. I did too. But I also benefitted playing against American players. Here's a clue: If you and I played today, we would have two chances of playing in D1: SLIM AND NONE! Kapeesh?

[Pusher]

The inumerable personal admissions of failure by posters in education a side,
let me clairify "home schooling/no schooling" to mean those children whose educations are ignored for tennis- either by blind parental ambition, or by parents in the "polo set"- Paris Hilton types, that when they fail at meeting this pipe dream of tennis at least have inheritance.

Back to TOPIC- I have NOT heard one poster speak up and admit they want "special" treatment for american players. One went so far as to say
"No tax dollars to the foreign players" BUT I dare anyone to open a University budget and show me the Tax dollar path to these players.

Sure I want special treatment for american players. If "special " means an 18 yr old american kid not having to compete with a 22 year old foreign player, many of which attended the "polo set" tennis academies in both europe and the US.

You want a tax dollar path? Do you know that athletic contributions are tax deductible? Many athletic facilities, including tennis facilities, are built with tax dollars or from large contributors that get large tax breaks from such contributions. Do you think athletic scholarships pay 100% of the education costs? No, the shortfall at state schools are made up with taxes.

Believe me, athletic booster organizations are well aware of the problem-at least their executives are. Unless some changes are made then those organizations will take matters into their own hands and men's college tennis will become a club sport.

[Pusher]

You stated that you played in the 70's and your game improved against the international players. I did too. But I also benefitted playing against American players. Here's a clue: If you and I played today, we would have two chances of playing in D1: SLIM AND NONE! Kapeesh?

Exactly.

College tennis coaches take the easy way out. Instead of taking an 18 year old american kid, coach him up, and have him excel as a junior and senior, they take the 22 year old european and S american pro tour reject that you can wind-up and put on the court at a high level on day one. No coaching necessary, a rent-a-player.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

How do you tie boosters ending contributions and turning Men's tennis into a club sport helpful in getting americans scholarships over foriegn players? Do you honestly think these BIG "boosters" are giving the money to tennis or even to the AD (athletic department) - No, they are getting FOOTBALL TICKETS or BASKETBALL TICKETS, the money sports.

How do you directly tie what little scholarship money that is available to men's tennis to the infastructure and capital assets of a school ?

What should really get your attention is that Men's tennis and other minor sports will not have to wait for these boosters to (somehow) kill them off- Schools are employing "proportionality" to meet Title IX and all the NCAA can bicker about is why schools insist on cutting Mens sports to meet requirements.

[cuPlay]

You stated that you played in the 70's and your game improved against the international players. I did too. But I also benefitted playing against American players. Here's a clue: If you and I played today, we would have two chances of playing in D1: SLIM AND NONE! Kapeesh?

You are a bit off track...remember your post was opinions about foriegn players being paid for by tax dollars. What dollars are you talking about? Did some other finacial expert say tax breaks for non-profits was equal to taxes?!!
Based in GA, I can say for pretty certain that neither Diaz at GA or Shelton at GaTech are fielding teams paid for by my tax dollars. Yes, you have to be a standout player to play on a tennis scholarship at either of those schools, but financial aid opportunities abound for people here who are not great athletes but want to further their education. But to your slim to none comment I say you do not know what you are talking about--- We have a board with over 60 names of local kids who went on to play D1 in the last 10 years that is a motivation tool at the local academy just two miles up my street. :-D

The sad reality is that less American children participate in competitive tennis in the SE USA than twenty-some years ago. (My source is USTA Southern Player Dev.) If tennis were made more available to the masses you wouldn't even get a rise on this board...

[Tipster]

You are a bit off track...remember your post was opinions about foriegn players being paid for by tax dollars. What dollars are you talking about? Did some other finacial expert say tax breaks for non-profits was equal to taxes?!!
Based in GA, I can say for pretty certain that neither Diaz at GA or Shelton at GaTech are fielding teams paid for by my tax dollars. Yes, you have to be a standout player to play on a tennis scholarship at either of those schools, but financial aid opportunities abound for people here who are not great athletes but want to further their education. But to your slim to none comment I say you do not know what you are talking about--- We have a board with over 60 names of local kids who went on to play D1 in the last 10 years that is a motivation tool at the local academy just two miles up my street. :-D

The sad reality is that less American children participate in competitive tennis in the SE USA than twenty-some years ago. (My source is USTA Southern Player Dev.) If tennis were made more available to the masses you wouldn't even get a rise on this board...

State schools are built and maintained with tax payer dollars. Sure, they are intermingled with donations, but without the tax dollars there would be no state schools. Private schools are a different issue. If Baylor wants to ship over a bunch of Germans instead of Southern Baptists and say they have the best college tennis team, bully, bully, but don't cram our state schools full of people from out of State, much less out of the country.

I appreciate everyone's opinion here and I am entitled to mine as well also. I have lived here in Texas my whole life and pay into the State coffers every day. You can't tell me that there are not kids who are not playing in Division 1 because another guy without a vowel got the scholarship. As Mac said "You can't be serious." Getting the bone to play D2 or D3 ain't the same even though it ain't that bad either. Why can't our kids play in D1? Hell, we built the schools didn't we? They were not built by foreign countries were they? Let them figure out how to pay their way into D2 or D3 schools!

You say that you have a board of 60 locals who played the last 10 years. Great deal! That's 6 per year - from a tennis academy. Did they get to travel? Put up a sheet next to it asking how many wanted to play in D1 with a pen up to it.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Alright then, make sure and hang a string of pearls and a matching purse next to that sign up list for each person signing up, 'cause having a "special" exception Vs. fighting to be the best goes right along with them....

Let's call it "Title X" legislation

[tenniscrazed]

Alright then, make sure and hang a string of pearls and a matching purse next to that sign up list for each person signing up, 'cause having a "special" exception Vs. fighting to be the best goes right along with them....

Let's call it "Title X" legislation


I don't think anymore college legislation is necessary. Repealing Title IX, (which in my humble opinion) is a form of reverse discrimination certainly should be pursued. This helps all mens sports including the revenue generators such as football, basketball, baseball et al.

I do agree with the Might Wonder, american athletes (not just tennis players) especially at the college level tend to be less mature than their foreign counterparts. Consequently coaches have no choice but to build their programs or lose their jobs. Seems to me that a coach is going to think of feeding his wife and kids before he / she considers whether an athlete has a vowel in his name or speak a vowel of english.

The answer, I think, is repealing Title IX and allowing all athletes to compete for all available scholarships without regard to where they are from. As long as they pass the educational standard.

[tenniscrazed]

Sorry for the follow up; However, I think putting pressure on elected officials to put pressure on the NCAA to repeal Title IX is a great start. When I was on D1 scholarship there was no Title IX and there were many mens sports that just simply don't exist at those same schools now. Furthermore, there are many unnecessary womens sports that currently exist. Seriously, 4 person crew, or lacrosse. I guess they might say Tennis, or Water Polo. REPEAL TITLE IX let good ol fashion democracy, profitability, athleticism and intelligence determine who gets the free ride

[Aeropro master]

Went I went to Michigan State tennis camp, 4-5 players were foreign. Much more than the old days.

[Pusher]

I don't think anymore college legislation is necessary. Repealing Title IX, (which in my humble opinion) is a form of reverse discrimination certainly should be pursued. This helps all mens sports including the revenue generators such as football, basketball, baseball et al.

I do agree with the Might Wonder, american athletes (not just tennis players) especially at the college level tend to be less mature than their foreign counterparts. Consequently coaches have no choice but to build their programs or lose their jobs. Seems to me that a coach is going to think of feeding his wife and kids before he / she considers whether an athlete has a vowel in his name or speak a vowel of english.

The answer, I think, is repealing Title IX and allowing all athletes to compete for all available scholarships without regard to where they are from. As long as they pass the educational standard.

I'm not convinced that winning in college tennis is a big deal to the boosters or the athletic administration. In some of the elite programs that may be the case but those programs seem to have a high percentage of american players. I think most coaches just want to win-period. I respect those that actually try to develop home grown talent.

Repealing Title IX is a non-starter. Not gonna happen. Once an entitlement is created it is virtually impossible to reverse it. And Title IX is a hand-out to a lot of kids that really don't need it.

[Fedace]

I'm not convinced that winning in college tennis is a big deal to the boosters or the athletic administration. In some of the elite programs that may be the case but those programs seem to have a high percentage of american players. I think most coaches just want to win-period. I respect those that actually try to develop home grown talent.

Repealing Title IX is a non-starter. Not gonna happen. Once an entitlement is created it is virtually impossible to reverse it. And Title IX is a hand-out to a lot of kids that really don't need it.

Few of the coaches like Boise state tennis coach and Stanford tennis coach are trying their best to give american players the first shot. and i am sure there are many more. but having said that, even tennis coaches are under alot of pressure to Win, and if getting 3-4 german players will get them to the NCAA semis, they will do just that. :sad:

[tenniscrazed]

The perform or lose your job pressure is pervasive at all schools with "non revenue" generating sports. Stanford, SC, UCLA, Georgia generally will get the best of the U.S. The problem is there is many more D1 schools that need to establish a position in the sport. Look at Pepperdine of 2006, won NCAA's. If my memory is correct they had maybe 1 or 2 American players and they certainly did not play any of the top spots in either singles or dubs. They might have been lucky to even make the travel team.

[Fedace]

The perform or lose your job pressure is pervasive at all schools with "non revenue" generating sports. Stanford, SC, UCLA, Georgia generally will get the best of the U.S. The problem is there is many more D1 schools that need to establish a position in the sport. Look at Pepperdine of 2006, won NCAA's. If my memory is correct they had maybe 1 or 2 American players and they certainly did not play any of the top spots in either singles or dubs. They might have been lucky to even make the travel team.

I do find it interesting that Brad Gilbert's kid decided to go to Cal instead of Pepperdine like his old man did. I am not sure how good of player he is?:confused:

[tenniscrazed]

I do find it interesting that Brad Gilbert's kid decided to go to Cal instead of Pepperdine like his old man did. I am not sure how good of player he is?:confused:

I would venture to guess that he elected Cal primarily to be near his home and his dad. I find it interesting that Brad Gilbert, Paul Anacone among a few others were hired for big $ by the Lawn Tennis Assoc. to develop the British junior system. Why we lose some of our best coaches (not businessmen ala academy sellers), to the LTA is a mystery to me. While our own federation just lets them go, at the same time our own kids lose scholarships to foreign athletes. Just something to think about. Seems like hypocracy to me.

[Fedace]

I would venture to guess that he elected Cal primarily to be near his home and his dad. I find it interesting that Brad Gilbert, Paul Anacone among a few others were hired for big $ by the Lawn Tennis Assoc. to develop the British junior system. Why we lose some of our best coaches (not businessmen ala academy sellers), to the LTA is a mystery to me. While our own federation just lets them go, at the same time our own kids lose scholarships to foreign athletes. Just something to think about. Seems like hypocracy to me.

Actually i had asked Brad Gilbert about why he decided to coach Andy Murray instead of Sam Querry. He said LTA just gave him a great offer he could not refuse and Sam already had a coach and did not ask Brad if he would be interested. He also felt that Andy Murray had tremendous talent and could go as far as he dare to go. Brad also said Sam Querry was highly talented player and it would been very interesting and exciting to coach him as well. NOw this part, Brad himself did NOT say, but i just had a feeling that USTA and Brad didn't exactly have the best of relationship for some odd reason, i cannot put my finger on it. :confused:

[tenniscrazed]

Actually i had asked Brad Gilbert about why he decided to coach Andy Murray instead of Sam Querry. He said LTA just gave him a great offer he could not refuse and Sam already had a coach and did not ask Brad if he would be interested. He also felt that Andy Murray had tremendous talent and could go as far as he dare to go. Brad also said Sam Querry was highly talented player and it would been very interesting and exciting to coach him as well. NOw this part, Brad himself did NOT say, but i just had a feeling that USTA and Brad didn't exactly have the best of relationship for some odd reason, i cannot put my finger on it. :confused:


With all due respect, the great offer was major $, and a decent length contract. As far as the USTA / Anacone / Gilbert relationship. I would guess that it is in part $, and longevity. But moreso I would think it's control over the future of the player. The coach wanted control, the federation wouldn't give it to him. The LTA "your the coach, deal with it". No control issues there.

[Fedace]

With all due respect, the great offer was major $, and a decent length contract. As far as the USTA / Anacone / Gilbert relationship. I would guess that it is in part $, and longevity. But moreso I would think it's control over the future of the player. The coach wanted control, the federation wouldn't give it to him. The LTA "your the coach, deal with it". No control issues there.

i just thought that Gilbert and sam Querry would have been a great pair. Brad loves sports and querry is a sports fan although he doesn't talk as much as Gilbert does. what does andy and brad talk about?? last night's cricket match or how the Arsenal did last weekend ??

[tenniscrazed]

Fedace, I agree we let go of two of the best coaches in tennis (as far as I'm concerned). Please note I said COACHES not academy sellers. Brad Gilbert and Paul Anacone in my not so humble opinion know more about winning tennis matches than half of the "coaches" in the US. Regretfully, and to my great sadness the interest of the politicos are of greater interest than our own prodigy's. :sad: :sad: :sad:

[Fedace]

Fedace, I agree we let go of two of the best coaches in tennis (as far as I'm concerned). Please note I said COACHES not academy sellers. Brad Gilbert and Paul Anacone in my not so humble opinion know more about winning tennis matches than half of the "coaches" in the US. Regretfully, and to my great sadness the interest of the politicos are of greater interest than our own prodigy's. :sad: :sad: :sad:

I agree wholeheartedly. i just think that Brad likes to speak his mind and not worry so much about if it will piss off some of the guys that are running the USTA junior program and top guys in USTA development program. I really think if sam was being coached by Brad right now, he would be in top 50 and would be poised to move into top 20 by next year's end.:grin:

[slice bh compliment]

.... what does andy and brad talk about?? last night's cricket match or how the Arsenal did last weekend ??

They argue over which one overachieved with the ladies more, Brad or Andy.

They compare and contrast the taste of Bud Ice and Boddington's.

They argue over whether it's an elevator or a lift, a bonnet or a trunk, a biscuit or a cookie.

When they're really bored they play Bigfoot versus the Loch Ness monster.

They sit around makin' fun of Andy Roddick and Lleyton Hewitt a lot.

And Henman. The English in general.

[johnkidd]

That is how it is: when the opportunities are equalized, previous positions of privilege diminish. The marginal men will suffer, as they had been disproportionately pampered before. They can shout all they want, and listen to more of that Limbaugh talk, but everyone is shrewd now and no girl will surrender her opportunities anymore to some guy because of his anatomical differences.

From what I have seen most universities are not cutting mens sports to add women sports, they are simply cutting the mens programs to balance the ratio out. Tennis and wrestling have been two of the sports hit the hardest.

IMO Football needs to be removed from the Title IX equation because there is no other sport mens or womens that can compare to the amount of resources consumed by it. And lets face it, Football is the sport most schools hang their hats on. Are there Homecoming w/e's built around basketball games? Even at schools like Kentucky, Duke, and UNC which are basketball schools Homecoming is tied to Football.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

With all due respect for senior members of this board,
FEDACE could you please go back to your WHATS WRONG WITH STANFORD subject/post and take all the nuts that hound you back with you?

Your post where you "asked" Brad Gilbert for ANYTHING, (except maybe a dollar for wiping his car's windshield) is a riot- THEN to suggest he actually sat still and gave you an answer to extremely personal business desisions is right over to delusional.
Like I said, with all due respect to senior posters, please don't spoil other posts with off-topic asides, sure to be followed over here by your enraged critics.
Thanks

[tenniscrazed]

How does everybody feel about using tax money to give scholarships to foreign players who learn to play with Government subsidies? In my day, most people who were decent could get some type of scholarship somewhere. There are many more really good players today, but they don't have anywhere to go. This is a disgrace! I believe that alumni should let their schools know their thoughts on the subject which I have already done.


With all due respect Might the Wonder, the "original" thread was regarding the use of college scholarships on foreign players. So if we are to keep the thread alive, so to speak then we can stick with that subject or start a new thread regarding the future of Stanford. I was staying with the title of the thread.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

crazed-
look at STANFORD thread in rants and raves- be prepared to be amazed at what you see, not three virgins and a mule, no- Adults dragging the deadest of horses around the rink- long time axes to grind between posters exposed.
Its a wonder and a car wreck at the same time.

Frankly the worst thing is the chance that FEDACE will bring all that down on the Jr section instead of staying the course aptly named RANTS and RAVES.

Lets all give the board a rest- no one really gives a thought to some skinny middle- ranked kid stinking it up out West whenever:, Remember this too, shall pass.

[BradBaughman]

We teach are kid to have fun, if a parent pushes them its wrong, we are so condesending twoards anyone that is trying to drive their kids towards a promise land of Colledge /Pro, and then we get on here and try and figure out why the foreiners are getting everthing!

They understand this is a land of oppurtunity and they are willing to push their kids to be the best and lo and behold here are all of us trying to put a good grasp on whats going on ,Good Old Fashion Hard Work in accedemic and sports and they are kicking our butts they understand that winning is what coaches are looking for not losing, how many sponcer (nike addidas puma ect.) are going out to losers . How maney coaches want some kid thats been coddled through the junior ranks by mommy and daddy and cant keep up cause when the going gets tough the young American looks to mommy and daddy to bail them out!

[tenniscrazed]

We teach are kid to have fun, if a parent pushes them its wrong, we are so condesending twoards anyone that is trying to drive their kids towards a promise land of Colledge /Pro, and then we get on here and try and figure out why the foreiners are getting everthing!

They understand this is a land of oppurtunity and they are willing to push their kids to be the best and lo and behold here are all of us trying to put a good grasp on whats going on ,Good Old Fashion Hard Work in accedemic and sports and they are kicking our butts they understand that winning is what coaches are looking for not losing, how many sponcer (nike addidas puma ect.) are going out to losers . How maney coaches want some kid thats been coddled through the junior ranks by mommy and daddy and cant keep up cause when the going gets tough the young American looks to mommy and daddy to bail them out!

Please do us all a favor and at least purchase a dictionary. The run on sentences, one giant unintelligible paragraph (you'll have to look that one up) is extremely difficult to read, much less understand. Also please use the rants and raves board for your intelligent thoughts.

[BradBaughman]

you understood it well your American

when you throw a stick into a pack of dogs the one who barks got hit so im gonna conclude your doing some serious coddleing and fun when your on the court and that means not much hope for a colledge ride, love brad

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Ve Gahtes, little Bradley... Your'e just everywhere, no matter how hard people hound to get you to admit that if you are not the lead dog the view just stays the same.
I agree with everyone- You need some sort of spell check, or have the 10 year old wonder do it, at least then his middle-ranked exploits will be readable. Taking the Hillbilly jumbles into the can has been amusing to this point, but we need some new material; Tell us again how you are picking and chosing the tournaments you are allowing wunderkind to pitch (yet) another fit at- I laugh at your restrictions on the court, how mindful-how intent... is he deaf or just " a normal boy, with all the normal activities" etc ?

[tenniscrazed]

Brad since you speak of a son. I will assume you are old enough to procreate. In light of this my guess is you have procreated more than just one offspring. Try your well written thoughts in the "rants and raves" section and see what happens.

In the meantime let this board serve as a tool for intelligent dialog on the development of Jr., tennis players. Oh wait, better yet ask TW to creat a board just for you. Call it the "bradbaughman, I can't write, but have a cryptonite farting 11 year old board" maybe you can pick up more lessons by asking for email address and inviting people to training sessions. Oh even better change your name to Brad Bollitierri I'm sure Nick and IMG will appreciate that one.

[BradBaughman]

You're telling me that the athletic budget stands by its own? I seriously doubt that, but even if it were true, domestic players still wind up getting cut out. And what about the fact that other countries do not have athletic programs in their institutions of higher learning? You sound rather bigoted toward domestic players to me (reverse xenophobia). Also, """"you need to work on your grammer and your spelling""""". Perhaps you should have worn a hat out on the court. Just a suggestion. Have a nice day.;)

tipster said this to one of you

[johnkidd]

Come on guys knock it off. First of as crazy as some of Fedace's comments are they for the most part pertain to college tennis and Stanford's domination of it. Or should I say that last year where they got spanked was an aberation and they are top 5 this year.

As for the comments about BradB. Yeah his post was tough to read but to call the guy out for it was kind of mean spirited. I don't recall any of his other posts catching my attention so I'll give him a pass. I know I have posted stuff that when I went back and read it I was like WTF or the the fat fingers got the best of me.

Back on topic I don't feel Foriegn players are the problem. There have always been a good chunk of foriegn born players playing here. I think it's been amplified the last 10 years with all the programs that have been lost to Title IX and the reduction of scholarships. As I mentioned in the other post It's not like they are creating opportunities for women to play other sports. I the case of tennis they took scholarships away from men andgave them to the women's program. What is the total that women's programs can give 9? All that has done is allow teams like Stanford, Florida, etc. to stockpile players to keep other schools from getting them. IMO men's college tennis is much more interesting because you have had many schools come into play the pat 5-10 years to challenge the Stanford's, UCLA's, USC's and Gerogia of the world. 10 years ago would you have thought Boise St. Ohio St. and Virginia would be top 25 programs? They are now.

[BradBaughman]

Thanx As for the comments about BradB. Yeah his post was tough to read but to call the guy out for it was kind of mean spirited. I don't recall any of his other posts catching my attention so I'll give him a pass. I know I have posted stuff that when I went back and read it I was like WTF or the the fat fingers got the best of me.

thanx
jonkidd and please forgive me for my keyboard work hope you understood the point being made we are to coddled

[Jackie T. Stephens]

I see where your coming from but... since when have I used tax money for foreigns?

[BradBaughman]

im not sure what money is being used where, but we lived in a country that once had a decent amount of integrity that would have taken care of its own first but not anymore its survival of the fittest unfortantely!

[Fedace]

With all due respect for senior members of this board,
FEDACE could you please go back to your WHATS WRONG WITH STANFORD subject/post and take all the nuts that hound you back with you?

Your post where you "asked" Brad Gilbert for ANYTHING, (except maybe a dollar for wiping his car's windshield) is a riot- THEN to suggest he actually sat still and gave you an answer to extremely personal business desisions is right over to delusional.
Like I said, with all due respect to senior posters, please don't spoil other posts with off-topic asides, sure to be followed over here by your enraged critics.
Thanks

Look here silly person, i never said i sat down with the man. IF you didn't know Brad has his own Website, and answers his own EMAILS. Since you didn't know, if you ask Brad a intelligent question or if he finds your questions inquisitive, he will go back and forth with you on questions. I was originally going to just ask him one or two questions but we ended up with more than dozen emails going back and forth. I was very big fan of his original book, Winning Ugly, so i also asked him about when the sequel was coming out. and also i joked around with him about his prediction about Maria sharapova winning wimbledon. During early rounds of Wimbledon that year, i told him he had to be High on something to predict that maria would win wimbledon that year. Surely he did not forget this email, after maria won and he emailed me back after wimbledon was over saying Quote of the year, your quote, and joked around for a while. That was one of many email conversations i had with Brad. So long as he finds you interesting he will email and talk to you, obviously you don't know anything about that since you probably never tried. and to all those Fans of Winning Ugly,,,,,,, THE SEQUEL IS IN THE WORKS,,,,,,this is coming from Brad Gilbert himself.:grin:

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

So, again, with all the due respect to senior members, (i.e. someone who could sit on thier lard cans long enough to rack up such impressive post numbers), are you going to try and restrain yourself and your thus your "followers" to the dead -on descriptive areas of "Odds and Ends" and "Rants and Raves" or not?
Just planning ahead.

[BradBaughman]

Look here silly person, i never said i sat down with the man. IF you didn't know Brad has his own Website, and answers his own EMAILS. Since you didn't know, if you ask Brad a intelligent question or if he finds your questions inquisitive, he will go back and forth with you on questions. I was originally going to just ask him one or two questions but we ended up with more than dozen emails going back and forth. I was very big fan of his original book, Winning Ugly, so i also asked him about when the sequel was coming out. and also i joked around with him about his prediction about Maria sharapova winning wimbledon. During early rounds of Wimbledon that year, i told him he had to be High on something to predict that maria would win wimbledon that year. Surely he did not forget this email, after maria won and he emailed me back after wimbledon was over saying Quote of the year, your quote, and joked around for a while. That was one of many email conversations i had with Brad. So long as he finds you interesting he will email and talk to you, obviously you don't know anything about that since you probably never tried. and to all those Fans of Winning Ugly,,,,,,, THE SEQUEL IS IN THE WORKS,,,,,,this is coming from Brad Gilbert himself.:grin:

did he give any indication when this book would be coming out or what topics the book would cover

[tenniscrazed]

So, again, with all the due respect to senior members, (i.e. someone who could sit on thier lard cans long enough to rack up such impressive post numbers), are you going to try and restrain yourself and your thus your "followers" to the dead -on descriptive areas of "Odds and Ends" and "Rants and Raves" or not?
Just planning ahead.


I thought you were too "mighty" to get involved in the I'm better than you type of dialog. In all honesty and with respect to fedace I likewise have had, and continue to have email dialog with Brad Gilbert we have a lot in common it turned out. Although I have not sat down for lunch with him in 20+ years the dialog through the electronic medium does continue. Certainly not daily but on a irregular basis.

So Fedace I do believe you and know that Brad "tries" to read every email quickly and he does respond if there is a "peak" of interest. I likewise know this to be fact

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Ok,mmmmm Brad Gilbert.... mmmm
I'm not involved in an "I'm better than you" with FEDACE
That really would be Tenniscrazed- like running into TWO Phils' AND a Dedian Penthouse- No thanks
He wants to write to Mr. Gilbert, great.
I'm saying that if you read the STANFORD mens team thread- I just want to skeedaddle before any of that starts here.
And by the by last night in the bathtub with Chrissy E. and the great white, we agreed that the Tennis magazine somehow needs to put even worse models and clothes in the fashion section....

[CAM178]

I just glanced over the 2 previous posts, so I don't know what's going on here.

But to right this derailed train. . .

College tennis is under a good bit of scrutiny right now, and will be for the next several years, over the foreign player issue. As a former player, it was a running joke amongst the teams to where we would start the conversation off by saying 'How many Americans are on your team?', as we knew the answer was almost always 3. It's almost as if there is a prerequisite to have 3 American players. It's sad.

The other issue which the NCAA is having a hard time with are the guys who are much older foreign players, i.e. Kohlaffel (or however his name is spelled). Most of these guys have played on the tour for a spell, and then come into NCAA tennis and absolutely dominate. It's not fair. It's much the same reason why I think the Olympics should not allow pro tennis players in the Olympics. The Olympics and NCAA's are meant for amateurs, pure and simple.

My hope is that American colleges start to recruit more native players, and players who are true amateurs, i.e. high school seniors.

[BradBaughman]

Cam what you say seems to ring true from what ive heard also ! I know raising my own kid you are constantly being pressured too play his own age group hang out with his own age group for friends and next thing you know you have a boy entering colledge against men

And the forieners dont play by these rules look at some of the video on nadal at twelve everyone rooting him on in the audience are men, no children you dont have to be a rocket scientist to know who you hang out with is who you become

He hung out with older people he matured early and so it is with a lot of the kids ive encountered at ITF events these kids are allways so ahead of ours maturity wise

and knowing they can play pro 18-23 then come over here with a clean slate and get a scholorship its not fair ,until the rules change we need to raise our kids a little differently to compete with this

[tenniscrazed]

Cam what you say seems to ring true from what ive heard also ! I know raising my own kid you are constantly being pressured too play his own age group hang out with his own age group for friends and next thing you know you have a boy entering colledge against men

And the forieners dont play by these rules look at some of the video on nadal at twelve everyone rooting him on in the audience are men, no children you dont have to be a rocket scientist to know who you hang out with is who you become

He hung out with older people he matured early and so it is with a lot of the kids ive encountered at ITF events these kids are allways so ahead of ours maturity wise

and knowing they can play pro 18-23 then come over here with a clean slate and get a scholorship its not fair ,until the rules change we need to raise our kids a little differently to compete with this

Dr., B much to your surprise. I agree with you. It is a fall back for foreign players but this is the case in all minor, non revenue generating mens sports. The cause of this is Title IX. Bottom line is the pressure on the coaches to WIN this year not develop a long term program with a mix of seniors, down to freshman. There are womens sports in which almost the whole team is on scholarship at big time D1 schools where the sport didn't even exist a few years ago. Womens crew (seriously does anyone know anything about womens crew), womens water polo (which did exist) but has taken off. Womens tennis. The equality that Title IX has created is actually an inequality toward mens non revenue sports. It could be that in the next 10 years college tennis may not even exist at a lot of schools esp. D1's. Repeal Title IX, and let all athletes men and women, in all sports compete for the available scholarships.

[BradBaughman]

Dr., B much to your surprise. I agree with you. It is a fall back for foreign players but this is the case in all minor, non revenue generating mens sports. The cause of this is Title IX. Bottom line is the pressure on the coaches to WIN this year not develop a long term program with a mix of seniors, down to freshman. There are womens sports in which almost the whole team is on scholarship at big time D1 schools where the sport didn't even exist a few years ago. Womens crew (seriously does anyone know anything about womens crew), womens water polo (which did exist) but has taken off. Womens tennis. The equality that Title IX has created is actually an inequality toward mens non revenue sports. It could be that in the next 10 years college tennis may not even exist at a lot of schools esp. D1's. Repeal Title IX, and let all athletes men and women, in all sports compete for the available scholarships.

tenniscrazed iam completely ignorant to title 9 and i dont have all the answers but i do see the error of junior tennis and we're trying to carve a different path bcuz we know what we're up against my advice to you dad to dad you better do the same if you dont have any ideas the invitation is open to you also.

[AndrewD]

tenniscrazed,

You actually put your finger on the cause of the problem but buried it under talk of Title IX and the players themselves (the least relevant part of the discussion). The absolute heart of the issue is that a culture exists in collegiate sport whereby the ends (winning) totally justifies the means. As a result, coaches go out of their way to find players who can guarantee them wins right from their first Freshman match. The US obviously has only a finite number of players who can do that so they look overseas. In looking overseas they target (forget the idea that the players always target the school) players with experience at an ITF junior or senior level.

The simple fact of the matter is that no foreign player has ever TAKEN a scholarship away from an American. On the contrary, scholarships which might have gone to an American have been GIVEN away by American colleges. The foreign player is the very last link in the chain but they're always the first thing mentioned - they've played as pros, they're so much older, it's a fall back for them, etc, etc- because it's so much easier to be xenophobic than admit the problem is a home grown one.

Personally, I favour a quota system whereby each team is allowed only X number of foreign players on scholarship (any type of scholarship). Young American players shouldn't be deprived of the opportunity to play with (or against) and learn from guys like Ben Kohlloeffel, Andre Begemann, Arnau Brugues or Somdev Devvarman. That exposure to international styles and standards will only help their game and approach to tennis. However, they need to be able to make the team in order to learn from those guys so, a quota seems the best solution.

[tenniscrazed]

tenniscrazed,

You actually put your finger on the cause of the problem but buried it under talk of Title IX and the players themselves (the least relevant part of the discussion). The absolute heart of the issue is that a culture exists in collegiate sport whereby the ends (winning) totally justifies the means. As a result, coaches go out of their way to find players who can guarantee them wins right from their first Freshman match. The US obviously has only a finite number of players who can do that so they look overseas. In looking overseas they target (forget the idea that the players always target the school) players with experience at an ITF junior or senior level.

The simple fact of the matter is that no foreign player has ever TAKEN a scholarship away from an American. On the contrary, scholarships which might have gone to an American have been GIVEN away by American colleges. The foreign player is the very last link in the chain but they're always the first thing mentioned - they've played as pros, they're so much older, it's a fall back for them, etc, etc- because it's so much easier to be xenophobic than admit the problem is a home grown one.

Personally, I favour a quota system whereby each team is allowed only X number of foreign players on scholarship (any type of scholarship). Young American players shouldn't be deprived of the opportunity to play with (or against) and learn from guys like Ben Kohlloeffel, Andre Begemann, Arnau Brugues or Somdev Devvarman. That exposure to international styles and standards will only help their game and approach to tennis. However, they need to be able to make the team in order to learn from those guys so, a quota seems the best solution.

It's not that the scholarship was TAKEN or GIVEN away. It (the scholarship) simply doesn't exist anymore. The number of them that are available to minor, non revenue generating sports has shrunk. There is no disputing that. Programs that existed a few years ago, simply don't even exist anymore at a lot of D1 schools. Take mens volleyball some D1's have cut it out and moved the available scholarships to another sport. Another example is mens water polo quite a few D1's don't have mens water polo anymore. Mens diving gone at almost all D1's. I know that this is a tennis board but it is analagous. I do agree with you that our players should play the more mature foreign players the experience would be tremendous. Think of the experience of hitting with Benjamin Becker. I spoke with Adam Steinberg (Pepperdine head coach), he simply has to WIN or else he has no job so how does he compete with Stanford, SC, Georgia, Texas. How does Texas A & M compete? By going overseas. Our 2nd tier players just don't compete well against our 1st tier players. So they get foreign tier 2 players because they can compete effectively against our tier 1's. If more scholarships were available and a quota (great idea by the way). The coaches could develop 4 and 5 year programs and still have the ability to recruit effectively. Quota system, I like that idea. Well done. Lets press the NCAA.

[tenniscrazed]

tenniscrazed iam completely ignorant to title 9 and i dont have all the answers but i do see the error of junior tennis and we're trying to carve a different path bcuz we know what we're up against my advice to you dad to dad you better do the same if you dont have any ideas the invitation is open to you also.

Title IX is an NCAA rule that in short states for every male athletic scholarship, there must be an equal female athletic scholarship. So big mens sports (football, basketball, baseball) use up so many scholarships that the same number have to go to female sports. The only way to keep the ratio equal is to cut out available scholarships from "minor" sports, like tennis, volleyball, waterpolo, diving etc.

As far as the invite. Thank you.

[tenniscrazed]

I am watching Georgia Tech versus Virginia Tech football game. There must be 60 players on that field. I am reasonably certain most if not all are on scholarship. That means that 60 female athletic scholarships have to be given out where is that scholarship money going to come from? Certainly not from the womens crew boosters, it is going to come out of the budgets of other mens sports (tennis, water polo, volleyball, diving, lacrosse) and other non revenue sports. Its always about the mighty $$$$$.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

I hope you all realize just how much money is being wasted away by the NCAA chasing compliance and Universities fighting off these complaints- It is really what a crime.

When Title IX really becomes reality, all men's minors will be swept away.
Football stands alone with Basketball to pay ALL freight- including NCAA "officals" doing the prosecution, so these sports only get busted for graduation rates.

Football programs do exactly what they want, when they want and NOBODY including the NCAA is going to be so stupid with the goose and the golden eggs- That is the ONLY way you can pay for the idiotic programs like
Women's volleyball at Hawaii- Can you just imagine the travel bill for that
nonsense?

If you don't understand Title IX, you sure won't understand the really criminal act- "Proportionality" the benchmark of nose counting and, when enforced,
the end. The center of proportionality is Althletic Director and coaching staff
equal to men's sports- chew on that for awhile.

Want to do something? Volunteer? (I know,a dirty word to one obtuse poster)
or want to at least learn more? Jim McCarthy Media relations director for the College Sports Council has posted on an NCAA site lately, and you could look them up.

[CAM178]

I hope you all realize just how much money is being wasted away by the NCAA chasing compliance and Universities fighting off these complaints- It is really what a crime.

When Title IX really becomes reality, all men's minors will be swept away.
Football stands alone with Basketball to pay ALL freight- including NCAA "officals" doing the prosecution, so these sports only get busted for graduation rates.

Football programs do exactly what they want, when they want and NOBODY including the NCAA is going to be so stupid with the goose and the golden eggs- That is the ONLY way you can pay for the idiotic programs like
Women's volleyball at Hawaii- Can you just imagine the travel bill for that
nonsense?

If you don't understand Title IX, you sure won't understand the really criminal act- "Proportionality" the benchmark of nose counting and, when enforced,
the end. The center of proportionality is Althletic Director and coaching staff
equal to men's sports- chew on that for awhile.

Want to do something? Volunteer? (I know,a dirty word to one obtuse poster)
or want to at least learn more? Jim McCarthy Media relations director for the College Sports Council has posted on an NCAA site lately, and you could look them up.

Man, how true. All of this (NCAA rules) is a joke. I can't tell you how many times I saw illegal dealings for the bigger sports, and I know the NCAA has got to know. How can you not? I have seen players use coach's credit card at the bar (and I'm not talking small tabs), using the coach's car, buying clothes, etc.

The whole thing is a sham. Title IX or Title 69 won't make a difference. It is a super-corrupt system, and smaller sports like tennis unfortunately have to pay the price.

[tenniscrazed]

Man, how true. All of this (NCAA rules) is a joke. I can't tell you how many times I saw illegal dealings for the bigger sports, and I know the NCAA has got to know. How can you not? I have seen players use coach's credit card at the bar (and I'm not talking small tabs), using the coach's car, buying clothes, etc.

The whole thing is a sham. Title IX or Title 69 won't make a difference. It is a super-corrupt system, and smaller sports like tennis unfortunately have to pay the price.

Well stated. It is a total sham. I was shocked after I posted 60 players on VA Tech's football team, I discovered that there were actually 79 scholarship athletes on that team alone. Do the math, I can assure you that the population of those 79 players they can't do any math. I was a D1 scholarship, unfortunately I was not the sharpest tool in the shed so miracles occured (test answers ended up in my dorm room, rewrites on papers that would have certainly garnered a "D" if not worse) all to keep me academically eligible. Back then there was no Title IX. It is a sham system but it does boil down to revenue draw. Tennis just doesn't generate money period. It would surprise me if Tennis is a scholarship sport in the next 10 years. ESPN would rather show John Madden XBOX video game tourney versus a college tennis match, or mens water polo etc. Very sad but until these minor sports generate revenue to at least pay for themselves they will likely be cut from the scholarship budgets. Simple economics.

[AndrewD]

Very sad but until these minor sports generate revenue to at least pay for themselves they will likely be cut from the scholarship budgets. Simple economics.

It isn't a case of simple economics, it's a case of compliance.

If a school wants to retain their D1 eligibility, they need to offer a set number of different sports at the D1 level - not only football and basketball. ALL teams that comprise your D1 list must have the requisite number of scholarships attached - absolutely no exceptions.

You can cut the budget for their departments and you can cut the team (assuming you have enough sports left over to remain D1 eligible). That's simple economics. HOWEVER, while you retain the sport you can't cut their scholarship budget.

[tenniscrazed]

It isn't a case of simple economics, it's a case of compliance.

If a school wants to retain their D1 eligibility, they need to offer a set number of different sports at the D1 level - not only football and basketball. ALL teams that comprise your D1 list must have the requisite number of scholarships attached - absolutely no exceptions.

You can cut the budget for their departments and you can cut the team (assuming you have enough sports left over to remain D1 eligible). That's simple economics. HOWEVER, while you retain the sport you can't cut their scholarship budget.

I stand corrected a combination of economics and compliance. My understanding however is that the mens sport can be replaced along with its scholarship funding and replaced by a womens sport without similar economic need and retain the scholarship funding. (kinda like wheres the "bean" under the cup game).

[10isDad]

This has been an interesting and spirited discussion, however there has been a general misunderstanding of the original intent of Title IX from the perspective of the original topic of this thread being "foreign college players".

In actuality, Title IX was not intended to be focused on athletics. Title IX was originally drafted because of sexual discrimination related to Medical School acceptance. The author was a 3rd generation Japanese-American woman who had a history of fighting against discrimination based on racial segregation.

She applied at over 20 medical schools, but in they late 1940's, none of the schools she applied at accepted women. Therefore, she switched her focus to law...and the rest is history.

Title IX, enacted in 1972, is actually only 37 words: "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of gender, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

In 1979, it was the US Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare that switched the focus to athletics with a policy interpretation known as the 3-part test. Universities can be denied Federal financial assistance and be subjected to lawsuits unless they meet at least one of the 3 parts.

1 - Providing athletic opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment, OR

2 - Demonstrate a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented gender, OR

3 - Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented gender.

Please note that Title IX has nothing to do with the number of foreign players currently playing tennis or any other sport.

[10isDad]

Quick clarification: Title IX has nothing "directly" to do with the number of foreign players. I agree with tenniscrazed's initial posting regarding perform or risk the sport being cut. It's the 'win or else' issue that leads coaches to pursue overseas players.

Proponents of the athletic portions of Title IX often point out that male participation in college sports has increased. However, studies have shown that while there was a 5% increase in college men players, there was a 19% increase in the number of men in college and a 21% decrease in the number of men's sports programs - many of these programs were cut to accomodate women's sports programs in order to maintain compliance.

The 4.5 scholarships available to men's tennis vs. the 8 available to women's tennis is directly attributable to football. The NCAA allows 85 full ride scholarships to men's football teams (D1-A). Since there must be a commensurate total number of women's scholarships, some non-revenue men's sports get fewer scholarships.

An interesting, albeit controversial point of view is that of Janice Combs who advocates eliminating college tennis scholarships altogether. Her feeling is that it would cause more US juniors to turn pro earlier. She feels college tennis is "a holding ground for former European pros and those junior players being put out to pasture, or those never really desiring to play pro tennis. (Why should the colleges and universities waste money on this?) " and that college scholarships hurt American professional tennis.

[AndrewD]

My understanding however is that the mens sport can be replaced along with its scholarship funding and replaced by a womens sport without similar economic need and retain the scholarship funding. (kinda like wheres the "bean" under the cup game).

You can replace a men's sport with another men's sport that doesn't have "similar economic need". Doesn't have to be a women's sport that replaces it - is that what you thought? All that matters is parity of scholarship opportunities. The reason why men's sports might be cut in favour of women's sports, or cut altogether (so long as you retain enough to compete at Div1 - if needed) is that a sport like football offers such a high amount to only one gender. Cut football and you could probably have equal men's and women's sports. Trouble is, cut football and you lose your revenue. So the answer is to trim the other male only sports or have more female only ones.

[Tipster]

--- We have a board with over 60 names of local kids who went on to play D1 in the last 10 years that is a motivation tool at the local academy just two miles up my street. :-D


I would like more information on the comment that your academy has 60 names of locals went on to play D1 in the last 10 years. Did they travel? Did they pay their own way? This is very interesting to me because here in Texas one young man won State in the highest classification 2 years in a row, and he won a scholarship to the University of Texas at Austin. That's what you have to do here in Texas to get a scholarship at a Division 1 school - and even winning district here is like winning State in New Mexico! The entire situation is very irritating to me because the top 20 players in the state won scholarships to major schools when I grew and it appears to me that the players are better now.

Per the discussion with respect to title IX, it has indeed become *******ized. The only statement of Title IX is that there shall be no gender discrimination. As it has turned out, there is discrimination against the boys. Many probably don't know that the NCAA had already discriminated against tennis before Title IX. In the early 70's they decreed that only 6 scholarships be awarded to the boys and 6 to the girls.

In short, we have Title IX which has become not what it was intended to be and scholarship to kids whose countries do not give athletic scholarships for anything. A good start would be a rule stating that scholarship may not be given to people whose countries do not reciprocate. As I said in my previous post, let the foreign players figure out how to scrounge up some money to play college tennis! Instead of squealing about this, get your country to reciprocate or get off the pot. As one person said, we are stuck with Title IX.

What's all this about Brad Gilbert anyway?

[tenniscrazed]

Thought all would enjoy this link. It boils down to winning this year period attached we all will view the sad but true reality.

http://www.itatennis.com/Div1Rankings/preseason_men_07.htm

or this recent ITA tourney, we just don't win matches. Coaches are under too much pressure in "minor" sports to WIN today. Not three years from now. It's not a John Wooden mentality. More like day trading mentality.

http://www.itatennis.com/Indoors07/MensMainDraw.htm

[racingdad23]

Quick clarification: Title IX has nothing "directly" to do with the number of foreign players. I agree with tenniscrazed's initial posting regarding perform or risk the sport being cut. It's the 'win or else' issue that leads coaches to pursue overseas players.

Proponents of the athletic portions of Title IX often point out that male participation in college sports has increased. However, studies have shown that while there was a 5% increase in college men players, there was a 19% increase in the number of men in college and a 21% decrease in the number of men's sports programs - many of these programs were cut to accomodate women's sports programs in order to maintain compliance.

The 4.5 scholarships available to men's tennis vs. the 8 available to women's tennis is directly attributable to football. The NCAA allows 85 full ride scholarships to men's football teams (D1-A). Since there must be a commensurate total number of women's scholarships, some non-revenue men's sports get fewer scholarships.

Title IX is only part of the problem. I'm here in Big12 Country. The Big12 has 1020 scholarships available to Football players and only 30.5 (only 7 schools have Men's Tennis) for Men's Tennis (because of Title IX) But here is the bigger problem. Of the 4.5 scholarships available American students only get 1.5 of them. Here is why....

Baylor
7 Players
6 Foreign
1 American

Oklahoma State
9 Players
7 Foreign
2 American

Oklahoma
8 players
6 foreign
2 american

Tex AM <<<< only one with majority American players
8 players
1 foreign
7 american

Nebraska
14 players
10 foreign
4 american

Texas Tech
11 players
6 foreign
5 american

Texas
12 players
6 foreign
6 american

29% American
71% Foreign

Baylor I believe is the major reason for the influx of foreign players here in the Big12. They are currently #4 in NCAA and are always a top team. their Team has always been majority foreign. I feel the other schools in the Big 12 recruit foriegn players to try and compete with "them". I personally corresponded with Matt Knoll Head Coach at Baylor and he replied that he only r-cruits from the Top 20 in the Nation. Now seriously if you are a Top 20 recruit and pretty much could go to any school in the nation...why the hell would you want to go to Waco Tx vitually a desolate wasteland of wind, dust, heat and humidity??? His own stringent standards have set the tone for others to follow.

Why are we giving these scholarships to players here from other counties on student visas? They take the education that WE (public universities) pay for back to their own country. The thing is that most live high on the hog during college from their own government grants while the American scholarship athelete has to struggle finacially. Years ago I knew some students from India/Pakistan they were getting 3 grand a month for living expenses to attend school here (this was in the eighties). They all drove brand new sports cars and lived pretty lavishly. The only rule was no American girlfriends....but they all had them anyway:confused:

I've emailed the NCAA and the Big 12 commissioner. Doubtfull that it will do any good but at least I did something. I'd be more than happy to provide email addresses for others that wish to do the same.

Why the hell is r-e-c-r-u-i-t-s a censored/banned word?:confused:

[tenniscrazed]

"I've emailed the NCAA and the Big 12 commissioner. Doubtfull that it will do any good but at least I did something. I'd be more than happy to provide email addresses for others that wish to do the same."

Post them. I will likewise email these moro***. I think it's ridiculous. See Baylor will tell you they had to compete with Stanford, who'll tell you they had to compete with SC, who'll tell you they had to compete with U.T. Austin, who'll tell you they had to compete with Pepperdine the dog continues to chase his tail. Seriously, do you know what it must cost to fly womens volleyball from Hawaii to a tourney in Vegas. (all 20+ girls, plus food and housing for a week).

Post the email addresses. I will be happy to help. Not just for the future of college tennis but for all mens minor sports.

[racingdad23]

NCAA President Myles Brand

mbrand@ncaa.org

While there is probably very little any of us can do about Title IX, the focus of my emails have been about the foreign player problem and the loss of opportunity to the American Student Athlete seeking scholarships in Men's Tennis. I have asked that foreign/non-residents players not be considered under the 4.5 rule. What I mean is that sure let them play...hell give them scholarships...but not let those scholarships count under the rule. By doing this is would guarantee that each team would have at least 4.5 American players on scholarship on each team (or forfeit those scholarships). I think that this would not only ensure gender equality but nationality equality.

[tenniscrazed]

Thanks for posting the email address. I have taken the time to likewise express my disdain over the inequality. I will share a story that I emailed him as well.

I was speaking to two Eastern Europeans in two different sports. They both commented how comical they think it is that the U.S. gives out free education and training only so these athletes can go back to their respective countries and compete either in the Olympics or at the Pro level depending on the sport. We are considered a "joke" in this regard.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Division II national champions, and TOP RANKED going into 2008
LYNN UNIVERSITTY (Knights) Boca Raton FLA. (per CTOrecruiting.com)

Not one (1) American starter/player.

Perhaps coach Mike Perez (mperez@lynn.edu) (561) 237-7241
would like to sign up for TALK TW and give us HIS reflections on the matter?

Something besides, "I like to be employed".

[Fedace]

did he give any indication when this book would be coming out or what topics the book would cover

No, he did not tell me when it is coming, i actually asked him that question and he said he is not sure cause he is so busy with Andy Murray right now. He works on it in between during time off. Not to mention he also has a family life, he has look after as well. and i am sure he wants to check in on his son at CAL time to time as well. and the sequel will cover more of the similar subjects, strategy, Mental toughness, tour stories, match preparation and much more. He wouldn't tell me any details and i didn't think he would either.

[Fedace]

Ok,mmmmm Brad Gilbert.... mmmm
I'm not involved in an "I'm better than you" with FEDACE
That really would be Tenniscrazed- like running into TWO Phils' AND a Dedian Penthouse- No thanks
He wants to write to Mr. Gilbert, great.
I'm saying that if you read the STANFORD mens team thread- I just want to skeedaddle before any of that starts here.
And by the by last night in the bathtub with Chrissy E. and the great white, we agreed that the Tennis magazine somehow needs to put even worse models and clothes in the fashion section....

I have no idea about "i am better than you". i only have few nutty people hounding me in that thread. that thread was only meant to support stanford men's tennis team and have FUN doing it. From now on, i am not going to respond to any of those psychos in that thread.

[10isDad]

Title IX is only part of the problem. I'm here in Big12 Country. The Big12 has 1020 scholarships available to Football players and only 30.5 (only 7 schools have Men's Tennis) for Men's Tennis (because of Title IX) But here is the bigger problem. Of the 4.5 scholarships available American students only get 1.5 of them. Here is why....

Baylor
7 Players
6 Foreign
1 American

Oklahoma State
9 Players
7 Foreign
2 American

Oklahoma
8 players
6 foreign
2 american

Tex AM <<<< only one with majority American players
8 players
1 foreign
7 american

Nebraska
14 players
10 foreign
4 american

Texas Tech
11 players
6 foreign
5 american

Texas
12 players
6 foreign
6 american

29% American
71% Foreign



One thing you forgot is the fact that Colorado no longer has men's tennis - Title IX at work?!

[10isDad]

Sorry - you did point out that only 7 schools have men's tennis. My bad...

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

FEDACE
Really, really glad to hear you won't be responding to nut section, I was just hoping they don't follow you around the board -That is what I was saying-

Again, in all due respect for anyone with those popst #s

Do us a favor- you semm pretty gutsy- ask this Lynn University coach to jump on the board and explain recruiting desision process he has- his recruiting philosophy.

I would like to retire in a couple years and have my kid playing for an top outfit at the same time- Boca Raton or Tampa (U of So. Florida) looks appealing- So should I move to France first or what?

[tenniscrazed]

Division II national champions, and TOP RANKED going into 2008
LYNN UNIVERSITTY (Knights) Boca Raton FLA. (per CTOrecruiting.com)

Not one (1) American starter/player.

Perhaps coach Mike Perez (mperez@lynn.edu) (561) 237-7241
would like to sign up for TALK TW and give us HIS reflections on the matter?

Something besides, "I like to be employed".

FYI; I emailed the invite. I'd like to hear if it is any different the Steinbergs explanation to me.

[BradBaughman]

One thing you forgot is the fact that Colorado no longer has men's tennis - Title IX at work?!

how accurate is this where did you get the info im sorry racingdad put that up what i was asking

[Pusher]

NCAA President Myles Brand

mbrand@ncaa.org

While there is probably very little any of us can do about Title IX, the focus of my emails have been about the foreign player problem and the loss of opportunity to the American Student Athlete seeking scholarships in Men's Tennis. I have asked that foreign/non-residents players not be considered under the 4.5 rule. What I mean is that sure let them play...hell give them scholarships...but not let those scholarships count under the rule. By doing this is would guarantee that each team would have at least 4.5 American players on scholarship on each team (or forfeit those scholarships). I think that this would not only ensure gender equality but nationality equality.

The NCAA won't do anything that is not revenue neutral.

The college tennis enviornment is fixed-there are no real short term solutions, except one.

My son is being recruited to play college tennis so I've had the opportunity to talk to several college tennis coaches. And by "recruited" I mean that some D-1 coaches want him to walk-on, i.e. have an american kid they haul in front of the donors as sort of an affirmative action project. My son and I have pretty much told them thanks but no thanks-or, as my son would say "Sorry coach, I don't vamos".

A couple of other coaches- young, new coaches, have forged an agreement with the college administration that they will recruit graduating U.S. high school seniors and, in return, there will be no real pressure to win-at least in the short term. These coaches are actually willing to coach, not hire a foreign pro to win to beef up their resume. And that is what it is really about-beefing up that resume to get to that higher level coaching or teaching position.

That is what it is going to take-college coaches taking the initiative themselves. Most college administrators are receptive-they're americans too.

And the american juniors are ready for the competetion from the pro tour rejects. Give them a couple of years of top coaching and they feel can play with anybody thats not on tour-most of them I talk to relish the challenge.

College is supposed to be about learning and growing in academics and other pursuits-athletics included. The question to put to the NCAA is how are they accomplishing their educational mission, their mandate, by excluding those that they are entrusted to serve. Or maybe we should look to hire more college administrators with more "international" experience-see how they like it.

[racingdad23]

how accurate is this where did you get the info im sorry racingdad put that up what i was asking

In the Big12 neither Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State or Missouri have Men's Tennis. All five universities though have womens tennis. I have no idea if Title IX is a factor. It was merely an observation.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Thanks for the insight, Pusher- I know many, many posters would like to hear exactly this-type information; More about your D-1 recruiting experiences, the process you and your son went thru to his final decision(s).

I know most would agree this would make good reading, if you were ever so kind to consider it.

Your post exemplifies what the TW/Talk Tennis is supposed to look like; Thought out, intellegent, straight information others can use, with an opinion that is also well thought without theatrics or usuaL banal "you are" .....""no, you are".

[tenniscrazed]

In the Big12 neither Colorado, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State or Missouri have Men's Tennis. All five universities though have womens tennis. I have no idea if Title IX is a factor. It was merely an observation.

I would venture to say that with a little research we can determine if those schools had mens tennis in the pre Title IX days. The sad reality is that this information is regarding one single sport, tennis. Which I know this being a tennis board is most relevent.

However, if we expand our horizons a bit. You can imagine all of the other mens sports that have been cut out completely as a result of Title IX. Title IX is most certainly a factor and in my not so humble opinion a form of reverse discrimination. I think emailing the NCAA along with an invite to join this discussion (as I did earlier), an invite to AD's and Coaches to explain the justification would be appropriate by all. Lets see if they can shed some light on this.

[10isDad]

I would venture to say that with a little research we can determine if those schools had mens tennis in the pre Title IX days. The sad reality is that this information is regarding one single sport, tennis. Which I know this being a tennis board is most relevent.

However, if we expand our horizons a bit. You can imagine all of the other mens sports that have been cut out completely as a result of Title IX. Title IX is most certainly a factor and in my not so humble opinion a form of reverse discrimination. I think emailing the NCAA along with an invite to join this discussion (as I did earlier), an invite to AD's and Coaches to explain the justification would be appropriate by all. Lets see if they can shed some light on this.

I know most of the schools did have tennis. Colorado was the most recent school to drop men's tennis. They claim it was financial. You can find an article about it if you search google. The sad part is the regents set a time limit to raise $1 million to keep the program and only $600,000 was raised. At the same time, they spent $3 million to buy out the fired football coach's contract and another hefty amount to hire a new coach.

[tenniscrazed]

Here is a perfect example.

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/playerprofiles/?playernumber=B896

Where does it even mention that he went to Baylor, and I think won the NCAA singles title.

I'm telling you we are laughed at in this regard

[10isDad]

I would venture to say that with a little research we can determine if those schools had mens tennis in the pre Title IX days.

KU dropped men's tennis in 2001. They state is was due to financial reasons... http://www.chancellor.ku.edu/messages/2001/march1201.shtml

Missouri definitely had men's tennis. Haven't found anything as to when they discontinued the program.

In 1994, Iowa State discontinued men's gymnastics and men's tennis in order to add women's soccer. They claim it had nothing to do with Title IX, rather budgetary concerns. The athletic director state "men's gymnastics was a dying sport".

No idea about K-State

[racingdad23]

I would venture to say that with a little research we can determine if those schools had mens tennis in the pre Title IX days.

"The administration dropped the men's tennis team in 1993 due to budget constraints. I have not heard of any plans to bring it back."

Michele Conlon Head Coach Women's Tennis at Iowa State

[racingdad23]

Here is a perfect example.

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/playerprofiles/?playernumber=B896

Where does it even mention that he went to Baylor, and I think won the NCAA singles title.

I'm telling you we are laughed at in this regard

From his bio...(Benjamin Becker)

Played four years from 2001-05 at Baylor University in Texas and earned All-America honors last three years...Captured the NCAA singles title (d. Michael Kogan of Tulane) and helped Baylor to its first team title in 2004 (d. UCLA)...Majored in Finance and International Business and is one semester short of earning his degree...

[tenniscrazed]

From his bio...(Benjamin Becker)

Played four years from 2001-05 at Baylor University in Texas and earned All-America honors last three years...Captured the NCAA singles title (d. Michael Kogan of Tulane) and helped Baylor to its first team title in 2004 (d. UCLA)...Majored in Finance and International Business and is one semester short of earning his degree...

Thanks for helping prove my point. He states clearly he's from Germany, hometown and born in Germany, currently resides in Germany. And an All American no less, so we educated him, gave him free training. An "all american" when I was a D1 athlete that is what it meant, All American, US citizen, high academic achiever, and a high ALL AMERICAN athlete. Not a German with a student visa. Bottom line we allowed him the opportunity, further we allowed him to win the NCAA final but I guess Texas isn't good enough for him to live in much less anywhere in the U.S. My guess if he doesn't make it as a tennis player, then he will work for DT (stock symbol for Deutchtelekom) with our "less than 1 semester degree" what a joke.

[AndrewD]

When Becker was recruited by Baylor , the American players of comparable standard (the ones who could play 1 or two on a Div I team) preferred to attend Stanford, Harvard, UCLA, USC and any of the other far more prestigious institutions. Do you blame them?

So Baylor, if they wanted to field a competitive-strong team, had to look outside the United States. They did, found Ben Dorsch and Ben Becker and then Baylor, an American university, used them to increase their national profile.

As for All-American meaning All American, US citizen, high academic achiever, and a high ALL AMERICAN athlete. , that is a load of rubbish. All-American is a reward based on accomplishment only, nationality has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you're in any doubts about that, talk to Pancho Segura, Rafael Osuna, Mikael Pernfors, Kevin Curren, etc, etc, etc.

[10isDad]

Back to whether or not scholarships should go to foreign players. Yes - it's part of what makes this country great. Am I happy that so many scholarships go to foreign players? Nope. However, I liken it back to the Japanese auto craze. Remember when our cars just didn't stand up against cars made in Japan. Some called for limiting imports, but what happened in the long run is that we started making better cars that could compete with their cars.

That's where the focus should be: build better players. It's a difficult task. We are one giant country with one governing body over junior tennis. This governing body is a private institution. The continent of Europe has many countries that are about the size of our states. Many of these countries have national tennis federations who provide government subsidies to 'prodigies'.

The USTA's new program has something like 16 kids in it that are getting free training, room & board, etc. Even if the European countries had a similar number, all it takes is simple math to know that there are far more European kids receiving subsidized training simply because there are more countries. And some of those countries are probably subsidizing far more than 16 players.

The USTA national tournament system doesn't really foster the development of players, either. It's pretty tough to play lots of national events and still be schooled publicly. I know my kid's school district is very strict regarding absences.

It's unfortunate, but tennis is a sport that tends to cater more towards wealth. Kids whose families can afford top training, kids who are home schooled, thus not bogged down with public schooling, kids whose families can afford to travel - these are often (not always) the kids that get the higher rankings.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

No word yet from Coach Perez (of DII) Lynn University and his 100% foreign
starting line up- big suprise, as we aren't feeding him.

I think I will check out the local Boca Raton sports newspaper editor-Maybe
the Editorial page(s), I can't waste all my verbose pearls on the subject here.

Thread is (still) hanging on, this must be a good subject.

[racingdad23]

KU dropped men's tennis in 2001. They state is was due to financial reasons... http://www.chancellor.ku.edu/messages/2001/march1201.shtml

Missouri definitely had men's tennis. Haven't found anything as to when they discontinued the program.

Yes, we did have a Men's program but was dropped due to Title IX and budget cuts. It happened in 2001. As of right now there is no plan to big the program back.

Amy Hall-Holt
University of Kansas
Women's Tennis

There has been a tennis team in the past, but it was discontinued years ago. I really wish we still had one. We were one of the few teams in the Big 12 that was competing, yet not offering scholarships on the men's side. Which basically means you really aren't competing. We also had facility issues - not enough indoor courts to adequately take care of both teams. So they made the decision to cut.

Blake Starkey
Head Women's Tennis Coach
The University of Missouri

[racingdad23]

No word yet from Coach Perez (of DII) Lynn University and his 100% foreign
starting line up- big suprise, as we aren't feeding him.

Thread is (still) hanging on, this must be a good subject.

While looking for summer tennis camps for my junior I was pleased to find one a couple hours away at the Wichita State University. I viewed the program and their roster. To my dismay not one american Player on the team. :confused:

So I'm going to take a stand here. Regardless of how good the summer camp or how inexpensive it is I just cannot consider supporting a program or attending a camp coached or sponsored by any team that has a majority of foreign players. I'm just not going to do it. I did take a moment to pen a short email to Coach Young of the Shockers explaining my feelings.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

A good stand to take, BUT based on what is known, and the really pitiful number of American players, I'm afraid you just are NOT going to find a camp
to meet your requirement.

[tenniscrazed]

No word yet from Coach Perez (of DII) Lynn University and his 100% foreign
starting line up- big suprise, as we aren't feeding him.

I think I will check out the local Boca Raton sports newspaper editor-Maybe
the Editorial page(s), I can't waste all my verbose pearls on the subject here.

Thread is (still) hanging on, this must be a good subject.

It is a whotwil suject (I just couldn't help myself). It's a great subject. Here is another pitiful example.

http://www.mstateathletics.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=16800&KEY=&SPID=11002&SPSID=90930

This one is sick. Because the one american is from Mississipi and for his birth year was ranked in the mid 70's and there is no way for me, at least to know if he was on any scholarship, athletic or academic.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Alrighty then....
If you want to see what foreign players DO for a school against their conference, just look at the sited example: Wichita State and compare Vs. Creighton University (top school in basketball and baseball).

Look up BOTH Men's tennis sites and compare players, just their photos alone more or less records. Note that Creighton has no foreign players, and plays in the same conference as the "Shockers".

I'm sorry, but the incoming Creighton freshmen look like ball boys Vs. professional older from across Europe. Thank the Creighton administration that understands what is ment by STUDENT althletes.

[tenniscrazed]

Alrighty then....
If you want to see what foreign players DO for a school against their conference, just look at the sited example: Wichita State and compare Vs. Creighton University (top school in basketball and baseball).

Look up BOTH Men's tennis sites and compare players, just their photos alone more or less records. Note that Creighton has no foreign players, and plays in the same conference as the "Shockers".

I'm sorry, but the incoming Creighton freshmen look like ball boys Vs. professional older from across Europe. Thank the Creighton administration that understands what is ment by STUDENT althletes.

Whats really funny is when you go to the ITF website and see the birth years of these guys. One is an 86 birth year, and he is a sophomomore. Wow.

[racingdad23]

A good stand to take, BUT based on what is known, and the really pitiful number of American players, I'm afraid you just are NOT going to find a camp
to meet your requirement.

I've actually found a couple of college summer camps. My kid will be vacationing this summer (Mississippi) with his grandfather and will attend at the camp at Millsaps College. I talked with a another parent online who thought his kid benefitted more from the Milsaps Camp that the Nike Tennis Camp he attended at 25% the price.

I did recieve a very nice (and long) letter/email from Coach Young at Wichita State today. I was very impressed that he took the time to explain and share his opinions on the same subject. I was so impressed that I may even have to reconsider the Wichita Sate summer camp. I want to stand strong on my beliefs and my plan of action but man sometimes hard when someone speaks to you on a personal level and you realize that he's a man just like you and has the same concerns. Matter of fact I would be more than willing to share his letter is anyone is interested. Not that I agree with all of it but he makes some valid points and I respect him for it.

I dont know what I'm going to do about the WS camp but I do know I'm not going to let up. I'm going to continue to write letters to anyone that will listen and lobby for reform is regards to the scholarships in Men's Tennis.

The battle continues.... :)

[10isDad]

Although as I posted before, I'm not against foreign players or their garnering of scholarships and that the US needs to build better players, I still thought it would be interesting to look at the percentage of players in men's D1 tennis for the 2007/2008 season.

I west to every D-1 school's website this afternoon and tallied up the players based on US vs. Foreign vs. Unknown. Some websites were having issues, some colleges don't have rosters posted. I'm sure some players have attended academies in the US long enough to list their hometown as a state, so there could be inaccuracies there.

What I came up with was:

US - 1404
Foreign - 872
Unknown - 17

This comes to about 38% of players in Division 1.

[10isDad]

Alrighty then....
Note that Creighton has no foreign players

Creighton most certainly does have one foreign player. Nikita Dudar is from Russia and played #2 singles as a freshman.

[Fedace]

Although as I posted before, I'm not against foreign players or their garnering of scholarships and that the US needs to build better players, I still thought it would be interesting to look at the percentage of players in men's D1 tennis for the 2007/2008 season.

I west to every D-1 school's website this afternoon and tallied up the players based on US vs. Foreign vs. Unknown. Some websites were having issues, some colleges don't have rosters posted. I'm sure some players have attended academies in the US long enough to list their hometown as a state, so there could be inaccuracies there.

What I came up with was:

US - 1404
Foreign - 872
Unknown - 17

This comes to about 38% of players in Division 1.

Don't you think 38% is way too much, what do you think would happen if US college football or baseball team would do the same ?

[10isDad]

Don't you think 38% is way too much, what do you think would happen if US college football or baseball team would do the same ?

So be it. In my opinion, it would be a sign that US college football or baseball was getting complacent and weaker. Time to build!

As I posted before, the US is at somewhat of a disadvantage because we don't have a government sponsored tennis federation that builds new generations of players (democracy vs. socialism, to a degree...). We need to pressure the USTA to build more grass roots programs. We certainly have the talent pool, but until tennis is more economical for more people, we won't tap that pool.

[tennis_nerd22]

i have a question for all of you guys who really hate the fact that most of the players are foreigners (i guess i would too if my tax money was going to them, though i dont pay taxes yet but anyways...).

if someone who does not live in the US but they will AFTER they're finished their education in the US, which includes a tennis scholarship. do you guys consider them to still be "foreigners"?

[tenniscrazed]

These athletes are older, certainly more mature, and in many cases declared themselves as pro tennis players prior to coming to the US. Since they made no money they come here to be educated, and trained (at some ding dang nice facilities) while they develop a yet bigger game for the future. Therefore are "technically NCAA eligible".

Why are we doing this, it's crazy. I think someone posted that our boys would relish at the opportunity to play against them. But if they are not even on the squad the point is moot. I know that our boys would rise to the occasion as they matured from high school seniors to college seniors but it appears we don't even want to give them the chance.

I think Yannik Noah probably saw the handwriting on the wall and stuck his son in basketball. Now, Joaquim is playing for the Bulls on a multi million $ contract never graduating from FL.

This is a great injustice. I am deeply saddened by it. The USTA is going to say this is an NCAA issue, the NCAA is going to say it is an AD issue, the AD will tell you it is a school issue and so on. We are so deeply entrenched in passing the buck. The buck will be passed from one retired hand to another.

[10isDad]

Regarding the % of foreign vs. domestic players for the 2007/2008 season, I went a step further and did some calculations.

*13% of the D1 teams have >=80% of the team as foreigners
*29% have >=80% of the teams US born
*35% of the D1 schools have more foreigners than US players
*57% have more US players than foreigners
*8% have the same number of US vs. foreign players
*6% of schools w/ a roster of at least 6 players have 100% foreign players
*12% of schools w/ a roster of at least 6 players have 100% US players

[tenniscrazed]

Regarding the % of foreign vs. domestic players for the 2007/2008 season, I went a step further and did some calculations.

*13% of the D1 teams have >=80% of the team as foreigners
*29% have >=80% of the teams US born
*35% of the D1 schools have more foreigners than US players
*57% have more US players than foreigners
*8% have the same number of US vs. foreign players
*6% of schools w/ a roster of at least 6 players have 100% foreign players
*12% of schools w/ a roster of at least 6 players have 100% US players

You are to be commended on your work. It would be interesting to see if any of the academy players who listed themselves from a state originated from another country but have been here long enough to claim residency. The problem with %'s is that 50% of 6 is 3. Yet 50% of 600 is 300. So lets lump them all together and see what we've got.

[tenniscrazed]

Only one other minor issue is that many schools have discontinued the program altogether thereby possibly misleading the data.

[10isDad]

Only one other minor issue is that many schools have discontinued the program altogether thereby possibly misleading the data.

I actually went to each D1 school's website and tallied up their rosters. I didn't include any schools where the roster wasn't listed, nor did I include any schools where I was unable to quickly access the website (some of the URLs on ncaa.org were incorrect). My assumption is that if they have a 2007/2008 roster, they still have a program.

There were 247 schools included in this informal study.

[10isDad]

You are to be commended on your work. It would be interesting to see if any of the academy players who listed themselves from a state originated from another country but have been here long enough to claim residency. The problem with %'s is that 50% of 6 is 3. Yet 50% of 600 is 300. So lets lump them all together and see what we've got.

See post #117 for the "lumpage"

[tenniscrazed]

I actually went to each D1 school's website and tallied up their rosters. I didn't include any schools where the roster wasn't listed, nor did I include any schools where I was unable to quickly access the website (some of the URLs on ncaa.org were incorrect). My assumption is that if they have a 2007/2008 roster, they still have a program.

There were 247 schools included in this informal study.

Well done. 38% is a huge number when you factor the number of athletes we are speaking of. 38% of 10 is 3.8, but 38% of 1,000 is 380 and minimum at best. Again, you are to be commended.

[tenniscrazed]

I checked #117 and it appears to be nearing the 50% mark. Close to a 1,000 tennis players from overseas. I know this is a tennis board, but if this is a sampling of "non revenue" generating sports then there is a lot of kids playing tennis, water polo, diving, swimming, volleyball etc. that have very little chance of using everything they've worked so hard for beyond high school.

[10isDad]

I checked #117 and it appears to be nearing the 50% mark. Close to a 1,000 tennis players from overseas. I know this is a tennis board, but if this is a sampling of "non revenue" generating sports then there is a lot of kids playing tennis, water polo, diving, swimming, volleyball etc. that have very little chance of using everything they've worked so hard for beyond high school.

This is certainly not scientific, but I picked Baylor since they have over 1/2 their squad non-US. Some of the results are surprising. I would have thought there might be some foreign soccer players and was surprised how many foreign golfers were on the squads:

Men
Baseball - 0 of 40 players are foreign
Basketball - 3 of 13
Cross Country - 0 of 13
Football - 0 of 115
Golf - 1 of 12
Track - 0 of 33
Tennis - 5 of 7

Women
Basketball - 0 of 10
Cross Country - 0 of 71
Equestrian - 0 of 51
Golf - 3 of 9
Soccer - 2 of 26
Softball - 0 of 18
Tennis - 6 of 7
Track - 1 of 40
Volleyball - 0 of 14

[10isDad]

Picked a school offering more sports: Nebraska

Men: Foreign players on Track (4 of 79 players) and Tennis (5 of 7 players)
All US teams: Baseball, Wrestling, Gymnastics, Golf, Football

Women: Foreign players:
Volleyball - 1 of 14
Basketball - 2 of 13
Soccer - 3 of 33
Cross Country - 1 of 13
Gymnastics - 3 of 13
Track - 5 of 50
Golf - 1 of 10
Tennis - 5 of 9
Bowling - 2 of 12

All US teams: Rifle, Softball, Swimming

[10isDad]

Forgot Men's Cross Country - 1 of 17 players, Men's Basketball - 2 of 19 players

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Thanks 10isDAD for research- Now, the endorsement- Just like Dick Cavett says in their NCAA (televisied football game) ad says: "There IS no place like Nebraska".

Here is the topper of ALL schools- Hats off to UTEP-
University of Texas- El Paso

NOT ONLY have they eliminated Men's tennis, (while retaining a big spoerts draws likes women's rifle), BUT Coach Jamie Campbell has seen fit to have ONLY one American on the roster.

Texas- El PAso wins, hands down, the"DOUBLE TOADY" award-
BOTH bowing to the usual Title IX compliance gods, AND the easiest way out recruitng award.

Please note: The American player, Amber Brightly, had a sterling H.S. record which would have allowed her to play at ANY top school. Silly girl; She seems to have wanted to support her home town, her home University- a student althlete, no less. I guess it really shows who has the class around that tennis organization.

[johnkidd]

I think an interesting angle to this would be how many of the foreign players come over here as exchange students and decide to stay vs. thouse that are hired guns.

I have no problem if someone comes from abroad and is a student and plays a sport. Sounds like that is what Benjamin Becker did. I won't crucify him for being one semester short and not finishing right away because it's not like there is an offseaon in tennis to take classes. If you hold this against Becker then you need to hold it against Isner as well.

You can tell who the mercenaries are. If anyone can remember back to Seton Hall's run to the Final Four (Basketball) in '89 they had a player named Andrew Gaze who played for one year. He played for the Austrailian National team for some time. I swear to god he looked like he was 30 years old out there (I think he was in his early to mid 20's)

[Tipster]

After a couple of weeks of this topic, thanks to all who have lent their thoughts. You folks are really awesome!

I commented that all other countries do not have athletics in their institutions of higher learning. I also charged that other countries are Government subsidized. I am still waiting a rebuttal unless I missed one or some.

I note that Title IX came up in this discussion. this has left me realizing that our country doesn't care about its domestic athletes as long as there are an equal number of sexes in athletics. Therefore, if every single athlete were foreign born and raised it would be fine as long as there were 50% females and males. And this is what's wrong with political correctness. It doesn't matter if it sucks or not just as long as it's fair.

To the statistician who concluded that only 38% or so athletes are foreign, he needs to go deeper and see which ones are in the top six.

To the one who is not attending tennis camp because of the foreign contingent at the school, there are plenty out there whose players are domestic players. Let them know why you are sending your money there. To most of the posters - keep the pressure on your school, your legislators, and the NCAA. It is just nuts to cancel tennis because tennis is and always will be one of the most popular sports.

Thanks,

Tipster

[BradBaughman]

Picked a school offering more sports: Nebraska

Men: Foreign players on Track (4 of 79 players) and Tennis (5 of 7 players)
All US teams: Baseball, Wrestling, Gymnastics, Golf, Football

Women: Foreign players:
Volleyball - 1 of 14
Basketball - 2 of 13
Soccer - 3 of 33
Cross Country - 1 of 13
Gymnastics - 3 of 13
Track - 5 of 50
Golf - 1 of 10
Tennis - 5 of 9
Bowling - 2 of 12

All US teams: Rifle, Softball, Swimming


thanx for posting all these no.s

[slice bh compliment]

...To the one who is not attending tennis camp ...

That reminds me of ...this one time?at tennis camp? Some friends and I were hitting at night, and.....
....;)
Kidding. I don't know why that line always cracks me up.

Well, it is sad that this issue is even affecting tennis camps.
I've got to say, I loved going to a camp. I really loved teaching at a camp/academy years ago. A lot of the other instructors/counselors were college players like me, and many were from other countries, and it was a great experience hanging with them and playing with them in the evenings. And having a beer with them on weekends.

Anyway, this is such a complex issue. Fun to read about.
Love to hear from some college coaches if they lurk around here at all.

Thanks,
slice

[10isDad]

In my opinion skipping a camp just because the team has foreign players is silly. Could be a good chance to experience a culture that the player's not aware of.

My son went to Weil for a 1-week summer camp. Frankly, none of the instructors he had were US born. Weil was about the only American there and he was only there to give a speech at the beginning and end of the week. He really enjoyed the various coaches and their insight to the game.

[Tennis_Bum]

In my opinion skipping a camp just because the team has foreign players is silly. Could be a good chance to experience a culture that the player's not aware of.

My son went to Weil for a 1-week summer camp. Frankly, none of the instructors he had were US born. Weil was about the only American there and he was only there to give a speech at the beginning and end of the week. He really enjoyed the various coaches and their insight to the game.

Did your son enjoy the camp? Did he learn a lot during 1 week? I am just curious how much one person can learn during those 1,2-week camp and retain those learning after he/she returned home and didn't continue with the drills or had some coach in front of him/her reminding the proper techniques. I am not against camp, just not sure how much value is in it. Obviously, camp is not cheap. I see tennis is a constant developing thing. You don't get really, really good in 1 or 2-week training. Just my opinion. I am sure others have experienced differently.

[10isDad]

Did your son enjoy the camp? Did he learn a lot during 1 week? I am just curious how much one person can learn during those 1,2-week camp and retain those learning after he/she returned home and didn't continue with the drills or had some coach in front of him/her reminding the proper techniques. I am not against camp, just not sure how much value is in it. Obviously, camp is not cheap. I see tennis is a constant developing thing. You don't get really, really good in 1 or 2-week training. Just my opinion. I am sure others have experienced differently.

He enjoyed it but he didn't really learn much. He felt he learned more by chatting w/ the coaches about their experiences, esp. their views on the benefits of clay court training.

There were about 60 people at the camp. The first day was spent determining skill level. 12 of the campers were selected as the top group and they trained separately from the remaining campers. These 12 campers had 3 coaches with them, so the ratio was pretty good. Can't say for sure about the other 50 or so campers.

He said the drilling wasn't really anything different than what you'd find anywhere else. The biggest benefit to him was there was a fair amount of match play against decent players. There were a couple Japanese girls who were the strongest players there, with my son probably next. The remaining group was decent but not quite as experienced.

As far as expense, he was lucky. He entered a tennis trivia contest sponsored by our USTA division and was the only person to get every question correct (the power of search engines). The prize was the choice of 1 week at either Weil or the Texas Longhorn camp. He'd heard of Weil (he'd watched Kallim Stewart play), and didn't know much about the Longhorn camp. Ultimately, his decision and he chose Weil.

He said he enjoyed himself but wouldn't want us to pay for it - that it wasn't worth that expense.

[johnkidd]

In my opinion skipping a camp just because the team has foreign players is silly. Could be a good chance to experience a culture that the player's not aware of.

My son went to Weil for a 1-week summer camp. Frankly, none of the instructors he had were US born. Weil was about the only American there and he was only there to give a speech at the beginning and end of the week. He really enjoyed the various coaches and their insight to the game.

Actually no it's not. Camps are a source of revenue for the head coaches of the programs. That's why they do them. If you feel a coach is using hired guns, hit them where it hurts-the pocket book.

A coach of a DI school I knew left for another program in the same conference (The program he left folded the program a few years back). He told me the salary was better but a big reason for the move was the fact they had a successful summer camp program. The school he was at had a one week camp and the one he moved to had multiple weeks. More weeks equals more money for the coach.

[tenniscrazed]

He enjoyed it but he didn't really learn much. He felt he learned more by chatting w/ the coaches about their experiences, esp. their views on the benefits of clay court training.

There were about 60 people at the camp. The first day was spent determining skill level. 12 of the campers were selected as the top group and they trained separately from the remaining campers. These 12 campers had 3 coaches with them, so the ratio was pretty good. Can't say for sure about the other 50 or so campers.

He said the drilling wasn't really anything different than what you'd find anywhere else. The biggest benefit to him was there was a fair amount of match play against decent players. There were a couple Japanese girls who were the strongest players there, with my son probably next. The remaining group was decent but not quite as experienced.

As far as expense, he was lucky. He entered a tennis trivia contest sponsored by our USTA division and was the only person to get every question correct (the power of search engines). The prize was the choice of 1 week at either Weil or the Texas Longhorn camp. He'd heard of Weil (he'd watched Kallim Stewart play), and didn't know much about the Longhorn camp. Ultimately, his decision and he chose Weil.

He said he enjoyed himself but wouldn't want us to pay for it - that it wasn't worth that expense.


That's quite an honest and mature assessment, tell him thanks. Now, back to college reality this girl just won the ITA indoors and if you research the tourney you will see why this is such a hot topic. http://www.itftennis.com/juniors/players/player.asp?player=100002081. This girl was a declared touring professional before coming to one of our fine institutions (300 +/- WTA ranking). Then she got a free education, free training, free travel all at our expense and worse yet took a spot of one of our own Jr.,s. This is pitiful.

This is a sad case of affairs and pressure must be put on those who are "passing the buck". I have emailed various school AD's as well as the NCAA. If everyone did likewise I assure you someone will listen at some point we just can't give up. Any email address of AD's, or NCAA officials would be appreciated.

[Tennis_Bum]

He enjoyed it but he didn't really learn much. He felt he learned more by chatting w/ the coaches about their experiences, esp. their views on the benefits of clay court training.

There were about 60 people at the camp. The first day was spent determining skill level. 12 of the campers were selected as the top group and they trained separately from the remaining campers. These 12 campers had 3 coaches with them, so the ratio was pretty good. Can't say for sure about the other 50 or so campers.

He said the drilling wasn't really anything different than what you'd find anywhere else. The biggest benefit to him was there was a fair amount of match play against decent players. There were a couple Japanese girls who were the strongest players there, with my son probably next. The remaining group was decent but not quite as experienced.

As far as expense, he was lucky. He entered a tennis trivia contest sponsored by our USTA division and was the only person to get every question correct (the power of search engines). The prize was the choice of 1 week at either Weil or the Texas Longhorn camp. He'd heard of Weil (he'd watched Kallim Stewart play), and didn't know much about the Longhorn camp. Ultimately, his decision and he chose Weil.

He said he enjoyed himself but wouldn't want us to pay for it - that it wasn't worth that expense.

I see tennis camps as sources of revenues for academies. Parents with deep pockets send their kids there in hope they will learn more, but reality is that camp staffs/coaches (call what you will) only interested in marketing themselves.

[10isDad]

Actually no it's not. Camps are a source of revenue for the head coaches of the programs. That's why they do them. If you feel a coach is using hired guns, hit them where it hurts-the pocket book.

A coach of a DI school I knew left for another program in the same conference (The program he left folded the program a few years back). He told me the salary was better but a big reason for the move was the fact they had a successful summer camp program. The school he was at had a one week camp and the one he moved to had multiple weeks. More weeks equals more money for the coach.

As I've stated previously (and I know I'm in the minority), I am NOT against foreign players playing or receiving scholarships. The schools decide who to give scholarships to and may the best person win. We (the US) need to build better players. It won't be easy and it won't be immediate but it can be done.

I will say that I think people receiving a scholarship should have to finish school. It should be like a contract. If they don't finish school, they should have to pay back the scholarship money the received. Might not matter to the big guns in football and ba$ketball, but a kid turning pro to dog it out on the Futures circuit would be hurt financially.

Out of curiousity, anybody know the difference in salary between a decent D-1 tennis coach vs. a D-1 football coach of a not-so-good team? I've no idea but would bet the football coach earns close to 10-fold the tennis coach. The coach could probably use the extra cash same as you or I.

I knew a person who was offered a position coaching the women's team at a D-III school. They offered her the massive salary of $7,500 per year.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

I had an earlier post where I mentioned -
Mr. Jim McCarthy
Media Relations Director
College Sports Council

He had got into a Title IX "discussion" right on an NCAA sponsored blog site-
Maybe HE would be so kind, if someone tracked him down, to sign up & sign on to give us some views and tell us what we can do to help?

[10isDad]

The bottom line is college is supposed to be about getting an education and an academic degree. Athletics is supposed to be extra-curricular. I doubt athletic scholarships were originally meant to be used in the way they now are.

If the intent of these scholarships is to have a winning program (as it seems they have devolved to), then scholarships should go to the best players, regardless of where they're from.

One could view all athletic scholarships as a way for a college to buy the services of talented athletes in order to positively affect their athletic program - a source of money, reputation and pride. In effect, scholarship athletes are paid a salary to attend school.

The hope is these people are at school to also get a good education and a degree.

[atatu]

Few of the coaches like Boise state tennis coach and Stanford tennis coach are trying their best to give american players the first shot. and i am sure there are many more. but having said that, even tennis coaches are under alot of pressure to Win, and if getting 3-4 german players will get them to the NCAA semis, they will do just that. :sad:

It can be done. When Craig Tilley coached Illinois to the NCAA title he had primarily American players on his roster. Too bad he left Illinois for Australia.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

The arguement (and pressure) has been made to PAY those players in revenue sports- at least GIVE more realistic stipends IF you are going to force them to "hang around" and risk injury for the old' U

These guys (some times) end up with wives and families, standing around when they could be negotiating NFL/NBA contracts- you can't in good faith make them "sit out" of pay day and risk everything- cause the sure are not there to get a degree- they are there to show what they have in these "training camps' for the pros.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

The College Sports Council has a great site on the Title IX issue.

[BradBaughman]

The bottom line is college is supposed to be about getting an education and an academic degree. Athletics is supposed to be extra-curricular. I doubt athletic scholarships were originally meant to be used in the way they now are.

If the intent of these scholarships is to have a winning program (as it seems they have devolved to), then scholarships should go to the best players, regardless of where they're from.

One could view all athletic scholarships as a way for a college to buy the services of talented athletes in order to positively affect their athletic program - a source of money, reputation and pride. In effect, scholarship athletes are paid a salary to attend school.

The hope is these people are at school to also get a good education and a degree.

10is dad your kids are blessed to have you !!!!!!!!!

Good point and a valid one my wife and i are allways baffled about people when we tell them were homeshooling our son because we want the best education they 9 times out of 10 say what about his social life

So its good to see theres someone out there other then ourselves that sees what school is truly about you are very wise and would be honored to meet you some day Brad

[Tennis_Bum]

As I've stated previously (and I know I'm in the minority), I am NOT against foreign players playing or receiving scholarships. The schools decide who to give scholarships to and may the best person win. We (the US) need to build better players. It won't be easy and it won't be immediate but it can be done.

I will say that I think people receiving a scholarship should have to finish school. It should be like a contract. If they don't finish school, they should have to pay back the scholarship money the received. Might not matter to the big guns in football and ba$ketball, but a kid turning pro to dog it out on the Futures circuit would be hurt financially.

Out of curiousity, anybody know the difference in salary between a decent D-1 tennis coach vs. a D-1 football coach of a not-so-good team? I've no idea but would bet the football coach earns close to 10-fold the tennis coach. The coach could probably use the extra cash same as you or I.

I knew a person who was offered a position coaching the women's team at a D-III school. They offered her the massive salary of $7,500 per year.


Point taken. My point is on the kids' side as learners. But I understand your point about earning extra money.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

The College Sports Council site lays a lot of the Title IX nonscense and nose counting squarely on the shoulders of trial lawyers and activists tied to
WSF (Womens Sports Foundation) who now are trying to creep "porportionality" into High Schools- (60% women poulation=60% of all sports participants).

Heres the irony- Leader/founder WSF? Thats right, your pin-up and USTA machine queen- Tennis "star" Billie Jean King.

[tenniscrazed]

The College Sports Council site lays a lot of the Title IX nonscense and nose counting squarely on the shoulders of trial lawyers and activists tied to
WSF (Womens Sports Foundation) who now are trying to creep "porportionality" into High Schools- (60% women poulation=60% of all sports participants).

Heres the irony- Leader/founder WSF? Thats right, your pin-up and USTA machine queen- Tennis "star" Billie Jean King.

I have researched the NCAA bylaws and here is the jist of what I came up with.

As far as NCAA regulations are concerned, it is up to the members of the NCAA to adopt legislation to preclude anyone (foreign, female, animal) or otherwise from obtaining a scholarship. The member schools must present this to the NCAA for vote by the membership. The NCAA cannot mandate, they will only regulate.

Because most colleges and universities are subject to Federal laws, and they receive Federal funds. The likelyhood of legislation being brought by the NCAA member schools is highly unlikely due to the threat of litigation by those adversely affected by such legislation.

To me it seems that those CURRENTLY affected by the previous actions of "foundations", and "lobbyists" need to litigate in order to adopt the necessary legislation for the NCAA membership to vote on.

[10isDad]

I have researched the NCAA bylaws and here is the jist of what I came up with.

As far as NCAA regulations are concerned, it is up to the members of the NCAA to adopt legislation to preclude anyone (foreign, female, animal) or otherwise from obtaining a scholarship. The member schools must present this to the NCAA for vote by the membership. The NCAA cannot mandate, they will only regulate.

Because most colleges and universities are subject to Federal laws, and they receive Federal funds. The likelyhood of legislation being brought by the NCAA member schools is highly unlikely due to the threat of litigation by those adversely affected by such legislation.

Well summarized...

[BradBaughman]

Well summarized...

10is dad did you say you lived in arizona

[10isDad]

10is dad did you say you lived in arizona

You betcha...Phoenix area. Hot, hot, hot.

[johnkidd]

You betcha...Phoenix area. Hot, hot, hot.

I just moved from Phoenix back to Cincinnati. I enjoed my time there. I was able to get to the ASU/Stanford match last spring.

[10isDad]

Link to a great article regarding the on building a stronger generation of US player: www.itatennis.com/sightlines-wright.pdf

[BradBaughman]

You betcha...Phoenix area. Hot, hot, hot.

gotch ya! we have to play the winternationals in i believe tucson, so if your there or near there maybe we could get together my sons gonna have to play the 12s

[10isDad]

gotch ya! we have to play the winternationals in i believe tucson, so if your there or near there maybe we could get together my sons gonna have to play the 12s

Mine won't qualify for Winter Nationals. We usually stay in town and watch the Boys 18s.

[Tipster]

i have a question for all of you guys who really hate the fact that most of the players are foreigners (i guess i would too if my tax money was going to them, though i dont pay taxes yet but anyways...).

if someone who does not live in the US but they will AFTER they're finished their education in the US, which includes a tennis scholarship. do you guys consider them to still be "foreigners"?

I would call these people foreigners who wind up getting tennis related jobs that our kids could have ended up with. They were educated with the assistance of the taxes that the parents of the kids who didn't get the tennis related job. Then, unless they keep their own kids out of soccer, basketball, T-Ball, Pop Warner and all of that fun stuff that American kids do and spend all their money hauling them around to tournaments, their kids will get cut out and they'll wind up not working in a tennis related vocation - especially since they won't have that cute accent!

Do the Canadian Colleges offer any sports scholarships? Do they offer any of them to American kids?

[Tipster]

That's quite an honest and mature assessment, tell him thanks. Now, back to college reality this girl just won the ITA indoors and if you research the tourney you will see why this is such a hot topic. http://www.itftennis.com/juniors/players/player.asp?player=100002081. This girl was a declared touring professional before coming to one of our fine institutions (300 +/- WTA ranking). Then she got a free education, free training, free travel all at our expense and worse yet took a spot of one of our own Jr.,s. This is pitiful.

This is a sad case of affairs and pressure must be put on those who are "passing the buck". I have emailed various school AD's as well as the NCAA. If everyone did likewise I assure you someone will listen at some point we just can't give up. Any email address of AD's, or NCAA officials would be appreciated.

Yeah, what a crock! If our kids accepted a free racket or got paid one penny giving lessons they would be ineligible! Here is the E-Mail of the one in charge of D1 men's tennis at the NCAA: mbockelman@ncaa.org

Me thinks he needs to pass on that we peasants out here with our pitch fork tennis rackets are about to have another tennis court rebellion (RE: French Revolution tennis court rebellion - look it up. it's there)! With respect to Title IX, I have always felt as if since football generates its own money, it should be treated separately in counting the men and women athletes. How's that for ingenuity?

[tenniscrazed]

Yeah, what a crock! If our kids accepted a free racket or got paid one penny giving lessons they would be ineligible! Here is the E-Mail of the one in charge of D1 men's tennis at the NCAA: mbockelman@ncaa.org

Me thinks he needs to pass on that we peasants out here with our pitch fork tennis rackets are about to have another tennis court rebellion (RE: French Revolution tennis court rebellion - look it up. it's there)! With respect to Title IX, I have always felt as if since football generates its own money, it should be treated separately in counting the men and women athletes. How's that for ingenuity?

Thanks for the email address. I emailed the NCAA a link to the ITF website with instructions on how to find her WTA ranking. I did get an email back stating that they (the NCAA) was going to refer the matter to the ITA championship mgmt. committee. It's a start, but for the sake of all of those junior athletes there must be a stop to this. This girl was ranked 300 +/- WTA, she was a declared professional tennis player. The NCAA, Uni of Arkansas, AD's, coaches can hide behind their desks. But the power of the internet reveals the truth.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

Her Arkansas travails are noted in TENNISRECRUITING site- While writing on her BIG win it said something along the lines of "even though she sat out a year for eligibilty penalty"....

[tenniscrazed]

Her Arkansas travails are noted in TENNISRECRUITING site- While writing on her BIG win it said something along the lines of "even though she sat out a year for eligibilty penalty"....

She didn't compete for a year. She still trained on our dime, ate on our dime, went to school on our dime. I spoke with a couple of friends of mine from europe playing here in the U.S. on the futures / challenger circuit and the running joke is "you are never a pro until you are in the top 100" because "it is so expensive that you don't make any money" thereby retaining eligibility which you can use to fool the silly american system into giving you a scholarship to a good school.

Apparently, playing for Uni of Arkansas looked a lot better than milking a cow in Lithuania.

[racingdad23]

And they wionder why revenue is almost non-existant in Men's College Tennis.

What American Tennis fan wants to go watch Lars, Boris, Dominik and Jose play?

I dont...I wont...

[racingdad23]

http://www.itftennis.com/juniors/players/player.asp?player=100002081.

Site Undergoing Maintenance

We are currently making some important updates to this site.
It should be back online shortly. Thanks for your patience.

Hmmm...Is it strange that this page is no longer there? I wonder if the bio for this player will be the same as it was the other day when the update is complete?

[10isDad]

And they wionder why revenue is almost non-existant in Men's College Tennis.

What American Tennis fan wants to go watch Lars, Boris, Dominik and Jose play?

I dont...I wont...

That's like asking what American tennis fan wants to watch Roger, Rafael, Marcos and Novak play. PLENTY!

True fans of tennis want to watch the game of tennis. Sure you can have your favorite players, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a true tennis fan avoiding the Pacific Life Open, for instance, just because foreigners are playing.

As for revenue, tennis is not/was never a revenue sport for college. Football makes up the largest % of sports revenue. Games cost to get in, schools get money for bowl appearance, television appearance, etc. Basketball, baseball and softball also contribute to the pot, as may some other sports like Lacrosse, but none of these sports can touch football for bringing in the bucks.

[10isDad]

And they wionder why revenue is almost non-existant in Men's College Tennis.

What American Tennis fan wants to go watch Lars, Boris, Dominik and Jose play?

I dont...I wont...

I will also go out on a limb and say that the majority of people that go watch college tennis are there NOT to see specific individuals, they're there to support their favorite university's team.

Go Devils!

[Puredrivetennis]

I think this is a stupid question to even ask.. I am a Russian-Canadian that's competed as a Canadian in ITF and Jr. Davis cup. I've won a National title, and intentionally refused prize money so that I could gain an NCAA scholarship next year. There are also many players in my position throughout the world.. Many are in the same position US players are-- unable to afford university, yet dreaming of a US education and NCAA competition. NCAA has scouted the world round since the inception in order to maintain the highest level of sport in university.. Foreign players bring different styles, energy and excitement to tennis.. I think it'd be ridiculous to limit the amount of scholarship money available to foreign players so that US players could take it.. Schools are in it to win, not to have Americanized teams. Watch Glory Road-- the NCAA is all about diversity!
the US' best solution would be to start a college program throughout the country to identify talented players that are interested in college tennis, and
have them training with national coaches.. There is a program similar to this in Canada, Italy, Australia, China, England and France as we speak.

[BradBaughman]

I think this is a stupid question to even ask.. I am a Russian-Canadian that's competed as a Canadian in ITF and Jr. Davis cup. I've won a National title, and intentionally refused prize money so that I could gain an NCAA scholarship next year. There are also many players in my position throughout the world.. Many are in the same position US players are-- unable to afford university, yet dreaming of a US education and NCAA competition. NCAA has scouted the world round since the inception in order to maintain the highest level of sport in university.. Foreign players bring different styles, energy and excitement to tennis.. I think it'd be ridiculous to limit the amount of scholarship money available to foreign players so that US players could take it.. Schools are in it to win, not to have Americanized teams. Watch Glory Road-- the NCAA is all about diversity!
the US' best solution would be to start a college program throughout the country to identify talented players that are interested in college tennis, and
have them training with national coaches.. There is a program similar to this in Canada, Italy, Australia, China, England and France as we speak.

Yah but you dont understand we coddle and pamper are kids and when you foreign kids come over with a lot of backbone and heart our kids dont stand a chance of competing with you guys!!! ITS just not fair!!! im mad lolololoo

[Puredrivetennis]

i don't know whether you just sided with me , or disagreed, hahaha.

[tenniscrazed]

I think this is a stupid question to even ask.. I am a Russian-Canadian that's competed as a Canadian in ITF and Jr. Davis cup. I've won a National title, and intentionally refused prize money so that I could gain an NCAA scholarship next year. There are also many players in my position throughout the world.. Many are in the same position US players are-- unable to afford university, yet dreaming of a US education and NCAA competition. NCAA has scouted the world round since the inception in order to maintain the highest level of sport in university.. Foreign players bring different styles, energy and excitement to tennis.. I think it'd be ridiculous to limit the amount of scholarship money available to foreign players so that US players could take it.. Schools are in it to win, not to have Americanized teams. Watch Glory Road-- the NCAA is all about diversity!
the US' best solution would be to start a college program throughout the country to identify talented players that are interested in college tennis, and
have them training with national coaches.. There is a program similar to this in Canada, Italy, Australia, China, England and France as we speak.

The argument has nothing to do with you as a player or student. The bottom line lies in $. Was it your families tax money or a US families tax money that paid to build these "fine institutions" in the first place.

[BradBaughman]

i don't know whether you just sided with me , or disagreed, hahaha.

This country was built on people coming here for the promises and dreams that can happen here. Through alot of hard work these dreams and promises are fullfilled. Most americans dont have will, heart, backbone, drive or committment to see any of this happen and when they see a fello american do it or try to do it they shoot him down as nuts, its a vicious circle.

As for you puredrive go for it and dont let anyone stop you from achieving your dreams just make sure you give back to those who have helped you, as for the people that will try and stop you, they're just a bunch of weak cowards.

[slice bh compliment]

It's the classic struggle: protectionism vs free-market.

With protectionism, we're happy, but the quality of competition goes down.
With the free-market, the quality is up but it is unfair to the the family of the well-rounded American student-athlete. Anger/frustration/envy all go with that debate.

In terms of tennis, I'm for free-market, but I think there is a large part of me that really hurts for the American kid with good grades and a low national ranking whose options are reduced because of Julien, Boris, Lars and Dominik. And that pesky Hans, ja?, hehehe.

As far as coddled Americans, yeah there are definitely quite a few. Victims everywhere. ADD, too. ANd many American (and foreign) families can afford to value a well-rounded childhood over total dedication to sport. I'm raising a son who happens to like tennis a lot and shows some talent for sports (tennis, karate, soccer, hoops and especially swimming). We want him to enjoy them, grow up strong and have it be fun and social without spreading him too thin.

What do you guys think? You think if my wife and I encourage academics, guitar/piano and whatever sports he likes that I'm taking away from his chance to be better than I was at tennis? I wish that were not the case, but it probably is, huh?
I'd love for him to train hard at tennis, play nationals and kick my ass in straight sets by the time he's in 16s, but more importantly, I want him to be happy, uninjured, not suffer from burnout, and steer clear of daddy issues ''because his dad was good at'' something.

I'm for not specializing until junior high or high school. In the end that's probably good for his health, but bad for any one sport in this age of academies. Jack of all trades, master of none? Is that bad?

So if that means he ends up not playing DI anything, that is absolutely fine with me.

Now, I'm an upper-middle class American and I can afford to go the well-rounded, not specialized route. Does that make me a coddler? Does it mean we're rasing him to have a short attention-span? Does that mean he's not dedicated enough to compete with the talents from abroad? Does that me us weak cowards?

[Tipster]

I think this is a stupid question to even ask.. I am a Russian-Canadian that's competed as a Canadian in ITF and Jr. Davis cup. I've won a National title, and intentionally refused prize money so that I could gain an NCAA scholarship next year. There are also many players in my position throughout the world.. Many are in the same position US players are-- unable to afford university, yet dreaming of a US education and NCAA competition. NCAA has scouted the world round since the inception in order to maintain the highest level of sport in university.. Foreign players bring different styles, energy and excitement to tennis.. I think it'd be ridiculous to limit the amount of scholarship money available to foreign players so that US players could take it.. Schools are in it to win, not to have Americanized teams. Watch Glory Road-- the NCAA is all about diversity!
the US' best solution would be to start a college program throughout the country to identify talented players that are interested in college tennis, and
have them training with national coaches.. There is a program similar to this in Canada, Italy, Australia, China, England and France as we speak.

The thing that you don't get is the NCAA is a reflection of its members which are various American Colleges. These Colleges were built by and are maintained by American tax payers. You seem to think that it's your God given right to come and play here and if someone disagrees with you they need to change their tennis development program. First, if the american taxpayer wants its schools to only allow American born players to participate in athletics, that's their decision. Secondly, there are plenty of good players here right now. Some of them can whack you right now. College used to be the path that American players used to hone their skills and then turn pro. Ask Stan Smith - and he's pretty hot about how the system has become derailed and become nothing short of a mercenary joke. Third, until your native country reciprocates in kind, foreign players should not be allowed to play here period. Finally, Our country subsidizes Canada and many other countries directly and indirectly by monetary payments, military protection, etc., then you have the nerve to tell us how to run our athletic programs.

[10isDad]

The thing that you don't get is the NCAA is a reflection of its members which are various American Colleges. These Colleges were built by and are maintained by American tax payers. You seem to think that it's your God given right to come and play here and if someone disagrees with you they need to change their tennis development program. First, if the american taxpayer wants its schools to only allow American born players to participate in athletics, that's their decision. Secondly, there are plenty of good players here right now. Some of them can whack you right now. College used to be the path that American players used to hone their skills and then turn pro. Ask Stan Smith - and he's pretty hot about how the system has become derailed and become nothing short of a mercenary joke. Third, until your native country reciprocates in kind, foreign players should not be allowed to play here period. Finally, Our country subsidizes Canada and many other countries directly and indirectly by monetary payments, military protection, etc., then you have the nerve to tell us how to run our athletic programs.

This paragraph defines jingoism...and that ain't a good thing.

I retract this statement due to misuse of the word jingoism.

[tenniscrazed]

The thing that you don't get is the NCAA is a reflection of its members which are various American Colleges. These Colleges were built by and are maintained by American tax payers. You seem to think that it's your God given right to come and play here and if someone disagrees with you they need to change their tennis development program. First, if the american taxpayer wants its schools to only allow American born players to participate in athletics, that's their decision. Secondly, there are plenty of good players here right now. Some of them can whack you right now. College used to be the path that American players used to hone their skills and then turn pro. Ask Stan Smith - and he's pretty hot about how the system has become derailed and become nothing short of a mercenary joke. Third, until your native country reciprocates in kind, foreign players should not be allowed to play here period. Finally, Our country subsidizes Canada and many other countries directly and indirectly by monetary payments, military protection, etc., then you have the nerve to tell us how to run our athletic programs.

Well said. Particularly with regard to the fact the institutions have to be maintained. Please remember the light bill, payroll, security, etc. that still have to be paid, with what? From whom?

With respect to "born here" I don't think thats necessary but certainly a family with US Citizinship is in order. Reciprocity is certainly a viable option to the extent of porportianility.

Lastly, quite a few foreign players are entering freshman year at the age of late 18 almost 19 maybe more. This versus say a 17 or early 18 if not younger American player, the maturation process alone could be significant. So there is an unfair advantage. Now one could argue "well you didn't make him strong at an early age?" valid argument except that they are likely not reached "full" physical or mental maturity YET. Giving them an opportunity to grow, physically and mentally between 17 and 20 is critical.

[_mats_]

Excessively jingoistic and chauvinistic comments coming from some angry folks around here.. scary.. scary.

Good thing is.. for those that posted those things, and while I do not condone what is happening, get used to it.. trust me on this one, there is nothing you can do about it.

[tenniscrazed]

Excessively jingoistic and chauvinistic comments coming from some angry folks around here.. scary.. scary.

Good thing is.. for those that posted those things, and while I do not condone what is happening, get used to it.. trust me on this one, there is nothing you can do about it.

No question it appears as "jingoistic" the reason for the appearance is that current policy is actually quite meek and inequitable.

[sureshs]

Mahesh Bhupathi was an All American at the University of Mississipi and ranked third in the US before he turned pro. I think it was a great move to allow him to do so.

[10isDad]

The past couple weeks I attended the ASU Thunderbird Invitational tournaments (Women's then Men's). I took some time out to talk with some of the players and coaches about foreign players.

All the players and coaches I talked to said they really enjoy having the foreign players around. They're not threatened by them, etc.

The people having a problem with foreign players seem to be people looking from the outside.

Foreign players have been around for years and years. My son's coach was telling me about all the foreign players on his team back in the early 90's. It's nothing new.

As I've written before: the USTA needs to build a better generation of US player. That means they need to NOT limit their high performance program to less than 2 dozen kids, they need to implement more grass-roots programs offering quality coaching at free or low-cost rates to the huge number of people in our country who can't afford the high cost of tennis, thus go on to excel in sports they can afford to play.

We have a huge, untapped resource, as tennis (at least at the level necessary to play in college) tends to remain a sport of the upper-middle class and higher. It costs a ton of $$$ for quality coaching.

Don't blame the foreigners. They tend to have government-funded national tennis federations that subsidize training for many more people than the USTA (a private organization).

[Puredrivetennis]

You're assuming it's my god given right. For many foreign players, myself included, consider it a privilege of sorts; an honour, if you will. I also do not think you should change your program just because you disagree with me-- I think the USA should ADD to it's development programs to encourage American participation in the NCAA. Think about what you just said-- if an American university closed it's doors to foreigners playing sport, what would happen? Last I checked, university was a multicultural, international experience. Enrollment from foreign countries would drop, revenue would drop, and you would end up worse off than you 'apparently' are now.
Although I find it hilarious that you assume people can beat me (when you know nothing about me), I agree. I realize there are Americans in the NCAA or ITF that would tear me apart-- heck, i've played some of them. But, I could (and have) also beaten American players. The NCAA still can be a venue for American players to work their way into a professional career, IF they work for it.
What's with all this "until your country reciprocates in kind" garbage? Canada and Russia don't have programs anywhere NEAR the size of the USTA, and if an American junior wants to play the Canadian circuit, all he has to do is fly up here. On top of that, Canada doesn't have a tennis program in university, which is why our best play there.
To finish up, I suggest you take an economics class-- just because you are our number two trading partner, you need our oil and primary resources just as much as we need your manufactured goods, so don't try to come off as if the USA is some great economic hero holding Canada up.
How ironic is it that CHINA is literally keeping the US economy alive by buying all your money and treasury bonds? You're in no position to gloat, here. What military protection? When was the last time Canada was attacked? It costs you nothing to "protect" us, as we sustain ourselves through defense systems, norad, etc; the only way you're going to come into play is if we are attacked.. As a diplomatic, peaceful country, I can't realistically see that happening.
Im not telling you how you should run it, genius, im telling you what would improve. Rather than being so ignorant, why don't you take a look at successful programs being run throughout the world, and build off of those?

[Puredrivetennis]

Well said 10isdad.

[tenniscrazed]

You're assuming it's my god given right. For many foreign players, myself included, consider it a privilege of sorts; an honour, if you will. I also do not think you should change your program just because you disagree with me-- I think the USA should ADD to it's development programs to encourage American participation in the NCAA. Think about what you just said-- if an American university closed it's doors to foreigners playing sport, what would happen? Last I checked, university was a multicultural, international experience. Enrollment from foreign countries would drop, revenue would drop, and you would end up worse off than you 'apparently' are now.
Although I find it hilarious that you assume people can beat me (when you know nothing about me), I agree. I realize there are Americans in the NCAA or ITF that would tear me apart-- heck, i've played some of them. But, I could (and have) also beaten American players. The NCAA still can be a venue for American players to work their way into a professional career, IF they work for it.
What's with all this "until your country reciprocates in kind" garbage? Canada and Russia don't have programs anywhere NEAR the size of the USTA, and if an American junior wants to play the Canadian circuit, all he has to do is fly up here. On top of that, Canada doesn't have a tennis program in university, which is why our best play there.
To finish up, I suggest you take an economics class-- just because you are our number two trading partner, you need our oil and primary resources just as much as we need your manufactured goods, so don't try to come off as if the USA is some great economic hero holding Canada up.
How ironic is it that CHINA is literally keeping the US economy alive by buying all your money and treasury bonds? You're in no position to gloat, here. What military protection? When was the last time Canada was attacked? It costs you nothing to "protect" us, as we sustain ourselves through defense systems, norad, etc; the only way you're going to come into play is if we are attacked.. As a diplomatic, peaceful country, I can't realistically see that happening.
Im not telling you how you should run it, genius, im telling you what would improve. Rather than being so ignorant, why don't you take a look at successful programs being run throughout the world, and build off of those?

Actually it appears that you are making a few assumptions. This is not an issue of any players ability, or students academic ability. It is an issue of whether or not you deserve to go to school on a federally (notice I said federally that be the US federally) funded scholarship. By your own admission you are here because of the opportunity that our flawed system gives. More power to you for taking advantage of a flawed system. In the end it is about a flawed system. The reason why foreign athletes are passionate about this issue is that their own countries universities do not offer the opportunity to further their education or athletics. If you don't go pro, milk cows, or head to the US and get an athletic scholarship. So be it. That still does not make our system equitable and fair to those who put it there. Then of course their is the foreign athletes fear of losing their visas. Back to the cows.

[Puredrivetennis]

Brilliant observation-- i'll bear in mind that if I ever suffer a career ending injury, the ONLY path available for me will be to milk cows.
You are so clever, it never ceases to amaze. If your arguments made sense, im sure myself and many other TT members would be pretty offended by what you're trying to say.

[BradBaughman]

Brilliant observation-- i'll bear in mind that if I ever suffer a career ending injury, the ONLY path available for me will be to milk cows.
You are so clever, it never ceases to amaze. If your arguments made sense, im sure myself and many other TT members would be pretty offended by what you're trying to say.

puredrive i order you to stop this reasoning with certain people on these threads """" You are so clever, it never ceases to amaze. If your arguments made sense,""" trust me you will get no where !! just go after your dreams

[Puredrivetennis]

you're right, it's becoming more or less a waste of time.. thanks , though, i will.

[10isDad]

Actually it appears that you are making a few assumptions. This is not an issue of any players ability, or students academic ability. It is an issue of whether or not you deserve to go to school on a federally (notice I said federally that be the US federally) funded scholarship. By your own admission you are here because of the opportunity that our flawed system gives. More power to you for taking advantage of a flawed system. In the end it is about a flawed system. The reason why foreign athletes are passionate about this issue is that their own countries universities do not offer the opportunity to further their education or athletics. If you don't go pro, milk cows, or head to the US and get an athletic scholarship. So be it. That still does not make our system equitable and fair to those who put it there. Then of course their is the foreign athletes fear of losing their visas. Back to the cows.

I dare-say scholarships aren't federally funded. Federal funds are allocated to universities as a whole. The university makes it's own budget up

Many times scholarship funding is assisted through booster organizations, fund-raisers, private organizations, etc. There isn't a direct pipeline from federal funds to athletic scholarships.

[tenniscrazed]

I dare-say scholarships aren't federally funded. Federal funds are allocated to universities as a whole. The university makes it's own budget up

Many times scholarship funding is assisted through booster organizations, fund-raisers, private organizations, etc. There isn't a direct pipeline from federal funds to athletic scholarships.

Per the NCAA "most of our colleges and universities are subject to Federal laws, since they receive Federal funds" further " it is our members who would have to adopt legislation to preclude foreign players from receiving grants-in-aid". So there is a direct pipeline into the budget process. If federal funding were to be reduced so would the budgets and therefore lost scholarship funding would have to be made up from elsewhere (boosters, foundations etc). So be it direct or indirect there is nevertheless a pipeline straight to the budget.

[tenniscrazed]

puredrive i order you to stop this reasoning with certain people on these threads """" You are so clever, it never ceases to amaze. If your arguments made sense,""" trust me you will get no where !! just go after your dreams

Of all people that should support this is you. Lets just say Peter Smith offered Deiton a full ride and Deiton took it, the condition was that he stay "injury free" then on the way home from practice he fell off his bike and injured his wrist to the point where he is out for 6 - 8 months. Mr., Smith says sorry call me back when he is playing @ 100%. In the meantime he gives the scholarship to Lars, or Boris versus say an American kid ranked slightly below Deit at the time.

Take it a step further lets say Lars, or Boris are 19 year old freshman, and the American slightly below Deiton is a 17 year old freshman that is not fully developed yet. Now what ?????

[10isDad]

So, what if...

What if there was a change to the NCAA limiting or eliminating athletic scholarships to foreign students? What would the consequences be?

In my opinion there would be a lowered overall quality of tennis, a sense of complacency because there's less motivation to get significantly better because of less competition, etc.

Instead, the high number of foreign players playing in US colleges should serve as a wake-up call that the US needs to change things to catch up to the rest of the world.

Got old racquets? Don't let them sit around in the garage. Seek out local grassroots programs and donate them. For instance, in the Phoenix area there's an organization called P.A.S.S. that helps underpriveleged kids take up the sport. Pressure the USTA to have more grassroots programs. Pressure the USTA to expand their high performance program.

[redsoxrock930]

what america needs is more clay courts.

[10isDad]

what america needs is more clay courts.

DEFINITELY! In speaking with the father of one of the kids in the new High Performance program, 100% of their court time is on clay.

[BradBaughman]

Of all people that should support this is you. Lets just say Peter Smith offered Deiton a full ride and Deiton took it, the condition was that he stay "injury free" then on the way home from practice he fell off his bike and injured his wrist to the point where he is out for 6 - 8 months. Mr., Smith says sorry call me back when he is playing @ 100%. In the meantime he gives the scholarship to Lars, or Boris versus say an American kid ranked slightly below Deit at the time.

Take it a step further lets say Lars, or Boris are 19 year old freshman, and the American slightly below Deiton is a 17 year old freshman that is not fully developed yet. Now what ?????

Im the guy who thinks it a bunch of crapp that a women starts working for a company and gets pregnant and then puts the burden on the company to save her job while she goes and lays her egg(has a baby)!! you want to have kids that her problem not the employers,, yet the employer suffer because he has to pamper her rights!! get out of the job place and go be a mom!!

also women on the tour get paid equal to men and do less work ( who pushed this ridiculess issue hhhmm serina venis billy jean capiratti the big voices all Americans) but you probably think it should be equal pay!!

no equal pay for equal work AND IF DEITON AGREES with Mr. Smith for and injury free "comittment" then the agreement is the agreement , thats what you dont understand about someone like me , i teach my son to be HONEST work hard and your only as good as your word!! We here in America are allways looking for someone to Blame! and easy way through! allways think we should get more then were worth!

ITS about integrity!! its about what you can produce!! I teach my son hes not on the court to HAVE FUN its all buisness he want to have ill take him to Disneyland!!! BECAUSE when it comes to college time and the bill is some 200,000 thousand all these parents(americans) figure out the forieners have been raised like my kid in reallity and when the pay off is happening and there little coddled and pampered child isnt collecting they stand there and start a thread on how it NOT FAIR WHATS HAPPENING TO OUR KIDS!!!

[BradBaughman]

So, what if...

What if there was a change to the NCAA limiting or eliminating athletic scholarships to foreign students? What would the consequences be?

In my opinion there would be a lowered overall quality of tennis, a sense of complacency because there's less motivation to get significantly better because of less competition, etc.

Instead, the high number of foreign players playing in US colleges should serve as a wake-up call that the US needs to change things to catch up to the rest of the world.

Got old racquets? Don't let them sit around in the garage. Seek out local grassroots programs and donate them. For instance, in the Phoenix area there's an organization called P.A.S.S. that helps underpriveleged kids take up the sport. Pressure the USTA to have more grassroots programs. Pressure the USTA to expand their high performance program.

put me in charge ill show everybody how its done!! 10is dad I do work for a living and i know how to work hard something were not teaching our kids!!! im amazed at how our kids have no consequences for any thing they do, right or wrong!!! i even had a dad tell me he will reward his kids even when they do wrong and he was serious !!

i love this one " do that again and im gonna"" your not going to anything your gonna let him/her run the show until they run into good old diciplined LARS Boris or Jose then reallity sets in !!!

or this one "be positve or dont be negative" were dealing with humans not batteries,, weve got so much psycho babble we dont know how to speak plain words of simple instruction and back it up with some parental backbone!!!

the problem is not the USTA its spelled a little differently its REAL DADS AN MOMS!!

[Puredrivetennis]

So, what if...

What if there was a change to the NCAA limiting or eliminating athletic scholarships to foreign students? What would the consequences be?

In my opinion there would be a lowered overall quality of tennis, a sense of complacency because there's less motivation to get significantly better because of less competition, etc.

Instead, the high number of foreign players playing in US colleges should serve as a wake-up call that the US needs to change things to catch up to the rest of the world.

Got old racquets? Don't let them sit around in the garage. Seek out local grassroots programs and donate them. For instance, in the Phoenix area there's an organization called P.A.S.S. that helps underpriveleged kids take up the sport. Pressure the USTA to have more grassroots programs. Pressure the USTA to expand their high performance program.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[10isDad]

the problem is not the USTA its spelled a little differently its REAL DADS AN MOMS!!

You're right - it starts at home. Unfortunately (and in some cases, fortunately), sometimes kids learn better from people other than their parents. Funny how sometimes if I tell my kid something he doesn't believe me, but if his coach tells him the exact same thing he listens.

First and foremost, tennis has to remain fun. If the parent gets too pushy and the kid isn't agreeable, that kid may quit tennis altogether. The point is to get more US juniors training/playing.

Parents/family have to provide the support system. If the child is up for training by the parent, great. If not, the point of my reply was the USTA needs to step up to the plate. I still maintain that for the most part (there are obviously exceptions) quality tennis training is out of reach to many kids because of the cost.

Just think of the potential if quality tennis training were available to all those kids who currently wouldn't even consider tennis due to financial/environmental restraints.

[redsoxrock930]

wow 10is dad, whose your kid, its okay if you don't wanna answer, i don't like giving my name out either.

[BradBaughman]

You're right - it starts at home. Unfortunately (and in some cases, fortunately), sometimes kids learn better from people other than their parents. Funny how sometimes if I tell my kid something he doesn't believe me, but if his coach tells him the exact same thing he listens.

First and foremost, tennis has to remain fun. If the parent gets too pushy and the kid isn't agreeable, that kid may quit tennis altogether. The point is to get more US juniors training/playing.

Parents/family have to provide the support system. If the child is up for training by the parent, great. If not, the point of my reply was the USTA needs to step up to the plate. I still maintain that for the most part (there are obviously exceptions) quality tennis training is out of reach to many kids because of the cost.

Just think of the potential if quality tennis training were available to all those kids who currently wouldn't even consider tennis due to financial/environmental restraints.

10is dad i see your point and im in agreement with you on it!! Let me give you a couple of examples im most proud as a dad!! my daughter was at a clinic and the kids were goofing off(during drills) my daughter being brought up to be respectful told the kids to keep quiet and get to work and arguement preceded between them only to have the coach tell me she was welcome anytime "free" because it was a awesome to have a kid that came to work and not play around!!

the other one is my son ive had top players, hitting partners lower there rates and tell me they felt they should be paying me for the workout they were getting hitting with my son, they said there usually babysitting or putting up with some kid throwing there raquets and cussng up a storm only to have mom or dad sitting there letting this run away train continue!!

ive taught my kids when they get to the court its all buisness, its time to put on there hard hats theres a money exchange and they are there to acomplish the task at hand!! theyve been brought up with a workethic take out the trash, make there beds,get there homework done ECT.

the forieners understand this clearly and we have to start INSTILLING this in our kids or the forieners will continue and we will continue to scatch our heads!!!

[Puredrivetennis]

not to soundn like im bashing anyone, but you're right, brad.. in my experience, american juniors tend to take a lot more for granted.. in canada, russia, italy, spain and all the other countries i've visited, we're taught to work for what we want.. that the hardest worker with the most passion, drive, etc will succeed.. from this we see natural competition, and soon enough, every player is pushing one another to do better-- setting the bar, if you will. teach this in the usta, and you'll see higher numbers of elite players in no time.

[Pusher]

You're assuming it's my god given right. For many foreign players, myself included, consider it a privilege of sorts; an honour, if you will. I also do not think you should change your program just because you disagree with me-- I think the USA should ADD to it's development programs to encourage American participation in the NCAA. Think about what you just said-- if an American university closed it's doors to foreigners playing sport, what would happen? Last I checked, university was a multicultural, international experience. Enrollment from foreign countries would drop, revenue would drop, and you would end up worse off than you 'apparently' are now.


That sounds like a good argument for foreign colleges to offer tennis scholarships-or is the multicultural experience only good for americans?

There are thousands of foreigners attending US universities and I doubt fewer foreign tennis players would have any impact at all. I mean really, if foreign tennis players are so good for the US then why not expect some reciprocity?

[Pusher]

The past couple weeks I attended the ASU Thunderbird Invitational tournaments (Women's then Men's). I took some time out to talk with some of the players and coaches about foreign players.

All the players and coaches I talked to said they really enjoy having the foreign players around. They're not threatened by them, etc.

The people having a problem with foreign players seem to be people looking from the outside.


Yes, I suspect that the college players already on scholarship are quite happy about things. The americans left out because of foreign players may not be quite so blissful.

Looking from the outside is exactly what happens when foreign players take US tennis scholarships.

[Pusher]

not to soundn like im bashing anyone, but you're right, brad.. in my experience, american juniors tend to take a lot more for granted.. in canada, russia, italy, spain and all the other countries i've visited, we're taught to work for what we want.. that the hardest worker with the most passion, drive, etc will succeed.. from this we see natural competition, and soon enough, every player is pushing one another to do better-- setting the bar, if you will. teach this in the usta, and you'll see higher numbers of elite players in no time.

Hold on a minute.

You're saying that the USA, the world's largest economy with the world's most productive work force that is the world's largest and oldest meritocracy doesn't depend on drive and passion and hard work? Canada, Russia, Italy and Spain are now the standard for success? If they're so successful (they are not) then why the influx of tennis players to the US? Why are they getting in the que for a green card?

This is exactly the kind of attitude that will eventually result in a curtailment of foreign college tennis players. Take our money and then tell us how much better you are? Thats a bit much to swallow.

[10isDad]

Hold on a minute.

You're saying that the USA, the world's largest economy with the world's most productive work force that is the world's largest and oldest meritocracy doesn't depend on drive and passion and hard work? Canada, Russia, Italy and Spain are now the standard for success? If they're so successful (they are not) then why the influx of tennis players to the US? Why are they getting in the que for a green card?

This is exactly the kind of attitude that will eventually result in a curtailment of foreign college tennis players. Take our money and then tell us how much better you are? Thats a bit much to swallow.

You're extrapolating his statement to every walk of life. He was merely giving his point of view from his experience saying that American junior tennis players tend to take more for granted. That's not an absolute and it is limited to junior tennis.

As for why the influx of foreign players:

1. Because most of them aren't ready for the pro tour and/or aren't sure if they're ready, thus want continued competition to hone their games or determine that they'll never be good enough for the pro tour.

2. Many actually want an education with the ability to play college tennis - something that most foreign universities don't have.

3. Most importantly, because college coaches are recruiting them. If I was a decent player from somewhere like Serbia and I had the option of making a pittance on the Futures tour, going to a European college or had a US coach asking me to attend a US college and play tennis and get my college paid for...hmmm.

[10isDad]

Yes, I suspect that the college players already on scholarship are quite happy about things. The americans left out because of foreign players may not be quite so blissful.

Looking from the outside is exactly what happens when foreign players take US tennis scholarships.

Once again (and my last post on the issue as it'll never end otherwise): then let it serve as a wake-up call to build better US players. More parity = more scholarships to domestic players.

Perhaps someday the NCAA will initiate quotas or limitations and many Americans will be happy. True, the overall quality of US college tennis may decrease.

However, the bigger issue is whether tennis will still be around as a college sport when that day comes. I personally feel the impact of Title IX with respect to budgetary issues affects far more US players than does the number of foreigners playing college ball. So many colleges have dropped men's tennis over the past 20 years.

What if tennis scholarships were abolished completely, as advocated by Janice Combs (tennistrainer dot com /abolishscholarship dot html). Would there be fewer foreign players? Perhaps. But I bet they'd still be recruited and given academic scholarships.

Finally, on a similar, yet different note: wonder what would happen to other sports if the NCAA upped the minimum GPA for people receiving athletic scholarships - say to a minimum 3.0 GPA. My guess is the quality of those programs would go down. Who knows, it could even lead to an influx of foreign players to fill the void...

[andfor]

I could care less if all D1 tennis teams are 100% fielded by foreign players, however not a single tax dollar should go towards scholarships for these players. ONLY american players should get scholarships that are funded by tax dollars.


Your position is an interesting one and one that I have a hard time disagreeing with. If this was the case Stanford, Duke, Vandy, and all the private universities would dominate because they would have all the best foreign players and still be able to get the Americans. Then you would have a group complain about that. Then there would be a movement to separate the private universities from the public. Trust me, it would happen. Look at the state of Tennessee, we have private and public high school athletic divisions for the state championships. Why, because the private schools for the same reasons I stated, give scholarships to the some of the best athletes. Thus creating the argument that private has an advantage over the public schools. On the other hand there is some court ruling(s) from the late 70’s preventing the limiting of athletic scholarships for foreign college students who come to school legally. I am not a lawyer nor can I site the case however I am sure it’s out there. It involved a kicker from UT-Austin I believe.

I've posted on this subject ad nauseam. I contend there are plenty of tennis scholarships out there unused if not under-utilized by the junior boys and girls coming out of high school. Many very good juniors who can't get a tennis scholarship to the big glitzy university all his/her buddies are going to go there anyway and just don't play tennis. There are a bunch of kids and I know them personally who could play at D1 programs like UT-Martin, UT-Chattanooga and Austin Peay, etc. And I could name a lot more schools that good American tennis players avoid. Why? Because many smaller D1 schools just are not cool to American tennis players. Instead choose to go to OleMiss, Arkansas, Vandy, UT-Knoxville or Alabama etc. and can't or could not make the team. Could they have played D1 tennis? Yes. Did they choose a school that they could have played at no. Why, cause they did not want to go to a smaller/uncool D1 school. This is common and has been since I was a junior tennis player back in the early 80's.

IMO the system is fine and mostly complained about by juniors and their parents because the big cool university has a bunch of foreigners playing there and they can’t make the team. If a tennis playing junior wants to play tennis bad enough there are schools just waiting. And of course if D1 or D1 mid-major is too high a level there are lots of great schools with tennis programs at the D2, D3 (no athletic scholarships), NAIA NJCAA. Heck, Kennesaw State just started a new D1 program and Mobile College and Santa Fe College also re-started their programs, NAIA I believe.

It boils down to the following:
1. How committed is the kid to play college tennis?
2. Does the kid have the talent to play tennis at the D1 level at the school of his/her choice?
3. If the kid does not have big time D1 talent is he/she willing to look at playing tennis at smaller schools?
4. If the answer to #3 is no, stop complaining.
5. If the answer to #1 is “totally committed” then he/she will find a scholarship or college to play tennis at somewhere.

College tennis opportunities are out there and abound. Just be willing to get yourself out of whatever box you’re in and look for to an alternative university.

[racingdad23]

Dr. Brand asked me to respond to your messages. He appreciates your
interest in the NCAA and intercollegiate athletics.

In order to address the issue you raised in your messages it is
important to understand how NCAA rules are adopted and what role the
national office (including the President) plays in the process. The
NCAA is an association of member colleges and universities. It is those
member colleges and universities that sponsor, discuss and ultimately
vote to adopted or defeat the rules. In essence, they make their own
rules. If they want to change the rules, they have the power to do so.
The national office staff has the responsibility to help the membership
through that process and then to help them understand and apply the
rules. Of course, the staff, including the president, can make
suggestions and provide some influence on the process, but, ultimately,
the membership has the power to adopt and change the rules as they see
fit.

More importantly, even if a majority the membership of the NCAA wanted
to restrict the number of international student-athlete who may
participate in their intercollegiate athletics programs, we have been
advised that such a restriction would not likely withstand legal
scrutiny.

Those issues aside, one of the core principles of the NCAA is its
commitment to an inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation
for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and
administrators from diverse backgrounds. Generally speaking, the higher
education welcomes international students and recognizes the great
benefits of adding them to a diverse student-body. The NCAA is a higher
education institution and it subscribes to the same notions of equity,
diversity and inclusion.

Finally, the latest data indicate that about 16% of men's tennis
student-athletes and about 12% of women's tennis student-athletes are
non-resident aliens. The NCAA membership includes over 1000
institutions. In addition to NCAA institutions there are numerous NAIA
and junior college institutions. There are thousands and thousands of
opportunities for domestic tennis athletes to experience the NCAA or
another athletics organization. Most important of all, we must
recognize that an individual's choice regarding which college they will
attend, should not be based on athletic reasons, but on educational and
career considerations.

I hope that this information is helpful. Again, we appreciate your
interest.

Sincerely,

Leeland Zeller
Associate Director of Membership Services
National Collegiate Athletic Association

[itsstilljustagame]

Check out the rosters of the male tennis teams in the D1 state colleges in NY.

[tenniscrazed]

Dr. Brand asked me to respond to your messages. He appreciates your
interest in the NCAA and intercollegiate athletics.

In order to address the issue you raised in your messages it is
important to understand how NCAA rules are adopted and what role the
national office (including the President) plays in the process. The
NCAA is an association of member colleges and universities. It is those
member colleges and universities that sponsor, discuss and ultimately
vote to adopted or defeat the rules. In essence, they make their own
rules. If they want to change the rules, they have the power to do so.
The national office staff has the responsibility to help the membership
through that process and then to help them understand and apply the
rules. Of course, the staff, including the president, can make
suggestions and provide some influence on the process, but, ultimately,
the membership has the power to adopt and change the rules as they see
fit.

More importantly, even if a majority the membership of the NCAA wanted
to restrict the number of international student-athlete who may
participate in their intercollegiate athletics programs, we have been
advised that such a restriction would not likely withstand legal
scrutiny.

Those issues aside, one of the core principles of the NCAA is its
commitment to an inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation
for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and
administrators from diverse backgrounds. Generally speaking, the higher
education welcomes international students and recognizes the great
benefits of adding them to a diverse student-body. The NCAA is a higher
education institution and it subscribes to the same notions of equity,
diversity and inclusion.

Finally, the latest data indicate that about 16% of men's tennis
student-athletes and about 12% of women's tennis student-athletes are
non-resident aliens. The NCAA membership includes over 1000
institutions. In addition to NCAA institutions there are numerous NAIA
and junior college institutions. There are thousands and thousands of
opportunities for domestic tennis athletes to experience the NCAA or
another athletics organization. Most important of all, we must
recognize that an individual's choice regarding which college they will
attend, should not be based on athletic reasons, but on educational and
career considerations.

I hope that this information is helpful. Again, we appreciate your
interest.

Sincerely,

Leeland Zeller
Associate Director of Membership Services
National Collegiate Athletic Association

Racingdad, just curious is this an email you received from them?

[Pusher]

You're extrapolating his statement to every walk of life. He was merely giving his point of view from his experience saying that American junior tennis players tend to take more for granted. That's not an absolute and it is limited to junior tennis.


Wrong, he extrapolated his assumption about national character and applied it to tennis players. And I suspect he knows little about american junior players other than his extrapolations.

[Pusher]

Once again (and my last post on the issue as it'll never end otherwise): then let it serve as a wake-up call to build better US players. More parity = more scholarships to domestic players.

It won't end with your last post-the issue will survive.

And I couldn't agree more about more parity=more scholarships to US players. That's the issue being discussed-18 year old americans competing with 22 yeard old foreigners.

[Pusher]

Dr. Brand asked me to respond to your messages. He appreciates your
interest in the NCAA and intercollegiate athletics.

In order to address the issue you raised in your messages it is
important to understand how NCAA rules are adopted and what role the
national office (including the President) plays in the process. The
NCAA is an association of member colleges and universities. It is those
member colleges and universities that sponsor, discuss and ultimately
vote to adopted or defeat the rules. In essence, they make their own
rules. If they want to change the rules, they have the power to do so.
The national office staff has the responsibility to help the membership
through that process and then to help them understand and apply the
rules. Of course, the staff, including the president, can make
suggestions and provide some influence on the process, but, ultimately,
the membership has the power to adopt and change the rules as they see
fit.

More importantly, even if a majority the membership of the NCAA wanted
to restrict the number of international student-athlete who may
participate in their intercollegiate athletics programs, we have been
advised that such a restriction would not likely withstand legal
scrutiny.

Those issues aside, one of the core principles of the NCAA is its
commitment to an inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation
for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and
administrators from diverse backgrounds. Generally speaking, the higher
education welcomes international students and recognizes the great
benefits of adding them to a diverse student-body. The NCAA is a higher
education institution and it subscribes to the same notions of equity,
diversity and inclusion.

Finally, the latest data indicate that about 16% of men's tennis
student-athletes and about 12% of women's tennis student-athletes are
non-resident aliens. The NCAA membership includes over 1000
institutions. In addition to NCAA institutions there are numerous NAIA
and junior college institutions. There are thousands and thousands of
opportunities for domestic tennis athletes to experience the NCAA or
another athletics organization. Most important of all, we must
recognize that an individual's choice regarding which college they will
attend, should not be based on athletic reasons, but on educational and
career considerations.

I hope that this information is helpful. Again, we appreciate your
interest.

Sincerely,

Leeland Zeller
Associate Director of Membership Services
National Collegiate Athletic Association

Politically correct BS.

He passes the buck and says he can't do anything but makes it clear that he's all for giving away as many college tennis scholarships as possible.

Spineless bureaucrats like him will never take a stand for american kids.

Note this comment:
"More importantly, even if a majority the membership of the NCAA wanted
to restrict the number of international student-athlete who may
participate in their intercollegiate athletics programs, we have been
advised that such a restriction would not likely withstand legal
scrutiny."

So any non-american citizen has an equal claim to american scholarships? He needs to hire a new lawyer.

[10isDad]

It won't end with your last post-the issue will survive.

And I couldn't agree more about more parity=more scholarships to US players. That's the issue being discussed-18 year old americans competing with 22 yeard old foreigners.

I'm going back on my word to clarify. I meant my last post on this issue because the thread is so long and the ebb/flow so back and forth that the same arguments keep getting brought up, so it never seems to end for me.

I'll keep my views to myself on this topic and stick to less controversial topics.

I will say that Zellers statistics are accurate but misleading. While only 16% of NCAA men's tennis players may be foreigners but the percentages vary widely between divisions. There are 35 - 40% foreigners in D1. This supports andfor's comments that there are LOTS of scholarships out there.

[Pusher]

I'm going back on my word to clarify. I meant my last post on this issue because the thread is so long and the ebb/flow so back and forth that the same arguments keep getting brought up, so it never seems to end for me.

I'll keep my views to myself on this topic and stick to less controversial topics.

I will say that Zellers statistics are accurate but misleading. While only 16% of NCAA men's tennis players may be foreigners but the percentages vary widely between divisions. There are 35 - 40% foreigners in D1. This supports andfor's comments that there are LOTS of scholarships out there.

Then perhaps after all the US juniors get their scholarships there will be plenty left over for the foreign masses.

[tenniscrazed]

Politically correct BS.



The problem with reciprocity, is that most foreign universities outside the united states don't offer athletic programs outside of the olympics. So real reciprocity is impossible to achieve. Limit the number of individuals that are "non resident aliens" that are allowed to participate.

The argument that our kids can't compete is certainly valid but asking a 17 year old freshman from Duluth to effectively compete against a 21 year old freshman from Dusseldorf is a little unrealistic.

Also, all should note that the winner of the ITA Indoor womens singles was a touring professional, had a top 300 WTA ranking before coming to our fine Kansas institution (on our dime no less).

Totally, spineless.

[racingdad23]

I will say that Zellers statistics are accurate but misleading. While only 16% of NCAA men's tennis players may be foreigners but the percentages vary widely between divisions. There are 35 - 40% foreigners in D1. This supports andfor's comments that there are LOTS of scholarships out there.


Well I think his statistics are probably correct..because he is including D3 participation n the mix which is 80% american (but not scholarship). Outside of that I think his letter is nothing more but political pass the buck BS.

I agree there are scholarships out there...I've noticed quite a few schools that have lower ranked USTA players. Some outside the top 100 in their state. Ive also noticed alot of High School State Champions that were not ranked highly in USTA on roosters. I think they are scholarships out there available...not many...buts the doors arent completely shut if your willing to play somewhere like Omaha Nebraska (Creighton University). I would be happy to have half of my kid's college education paid for...even iif it meant going to Nebraska or North Texas or anywhere for that manner.

[racingdad23]

I wanted to add that during my conversations with several university coaches that this was brought to my attention as a amusing fact...(not NCAA)

One of the coaches plays basketball regularly with some ex-college basketball players that played over in Europe as pros. He mentioned that many of the leagues over there will only allow "two Americans" on their rosters. So even the Europeans know the value of keeping native players on their teams and providing opportunity for them....too bad our NCAA Atheletic Directors cant see the wisdom of that decision.

[tenniscrazed]

Then perhaps after all the US juniors get their scholarships there will be plenty left over for the foreign masses.

Well put especially considering the following quote from the letter "Most important of all, we must recognize that an individual's choice regarding which college they will attend, should not be based on athletic reasons, but on educational and career considerations."

Yes, Benjamin Becker came, trained, traveled, played in USTA sanctioned futures tourneys as well as NCAA events all on our dime. Then won the NCAA singles final while at Baylor, then left with one semester to graduate all for educational and career considerations. Sure, I have some Oceanfront real estate for sale in Mojave too.

Or how about the young lady that just won the ITA indoors singles. A WTA 300+/- touring pro. Yes, the little Lithuanian came to Kansas for educational and career considerations, not for the free training, travel. Not for the free opportunity to mature as a player but for educational considerations.

Yes folks, when you are ready for that oceanfront house in Mojave just let me know.

[tenniscrazed]

One of the coaches plays basketball regularly with some ex-college basketball players that played over in Europe as pros. He mentioned that many of the leagues over there will only allow "two Americans" on their rosters. So even the Europeans know the value of keeping native players on their teams and providing opportunity for them....too bad our NCAA Atheletic Directors cant see the wisdom of that decision.


Limit the number on the roster in all sports, not just tennis, what about water polo, swimming, lacross, soccer even. Think of all the US children hoping for a chance to play D1 soccer and wont. This is not segregated to just tennis.

[itsstilljustagame]

A recruiting site lists these players as the ******** for Fall 2007 for the State University of New York at Binghamton. Do these students get scholarships paid for by New York state tax payers? This state school rejects a large percent of its New York State applicants. Many New York State students offered positions are denied scholarships.

Rating Name City State
Andreas Danielsson Onsala SWE
Sebastian Dietz Leun GER
Arnav Jain IND
Sven Vloedgraven Lochem NED
Gilbert Wong Hong Kong HKG

[itsstilljustagame]

Did the site block the word recruiting? Is that a bad word on this site?

[tenniscrazed]

A recruiting site lists these players as the ******** for Fall 2007 for the State University of New York at Binghamton. Do these students get scholarships paid for by New York state tax payers? This state school rejects a large percent of its New York State applicants. Many New York State students offered positions are denied scholarships.

Rating Name City State
Andreas Danielsson Onsala SWE
Sebastian Dietz Leun GER
Arnav Jain IND
Sven Vloedgraven Lochem NED
Gilbert Wong Hong Kong HKG

Yes, if a player is on "grant in aid" aka "scholarship" then it is paid for from the budget of the athletic department. From there just follow the money and it eventually leads to the N.Y taxpayer.

[Hooooon]

as crazy as i may sound (or be) i agree with Pusher and 10isDad, however 10isDad appears to be more informed. There have been changes in eligibility requirements in recent years and there are no more 22-24 year old Freshmen from eastern europe etc... who are essentially failed tennis pros, snagging countless scholarships. maybe those players set the tone, but college tennis is extremely competitive now compared to the decade prior and the world recognizes that. players are now coming here from south africa, australia etc at age 18 and playing college tennis before they go pro. i would prefer to see these players disallowed from doing so, still they are on a level playing field. american tennis overprioritizes academics, and an "education in tennis" should be treated with respect, not laughed at as an overcommitment or childish pursuit.
also, it is up to individual programs who they give scholarships to, and teams like stanford, illinois (before 04 or 05) and (few) other top programs refuse foreign players.

[playfairplease]

"american tennis overprioritizes academics, and an "education in tennis" should be treated with respect, not laughed at as an overcommitment or childish pursuit"

Not sure what you mean. Educational institutions in this country should have academics as a priority. An American student whose family pays usually outragous taxes and who earns a high GPA ought to be awarded scholarship over a foreigner who did not have academics as a priority. On the other hand, the ATP should not select on the basis of GPA. So far we have gotten one of the two right. If academics are low on the list, avoid spending 4 years at an insitution focused primarily on that. It is that simple.

[Hooooon]

"american tennis overprioritizes academics, and an "education in tennis" should be treated with respect, not laughed at as an overcommitment or childish pursuit"

Not sure what you mean. Educational institutions in this country should have academics as a priority. An American student whose family pays usually outragous taxes and who earns a high GPA ought to be awarded scholarship over a foreigner who did not have academics as a priority. On the other hand, the ATP should not select on the basis of GPA. So far we have gotten one of the two right. If academics are low on the list, avoid spending 4 years at an insitution focused primarily on that. It is that simple.

i was simply saying that american culture bashes people for trying and failing, and that something more secure/conservative like a BA/BS degree is seen as a greater accomplishment than earning 20 ATP points. the pure competitiveness of american tennis should make it the best, but few kids here focus on tennis to the extent top spanish, french etc... players do.

[playfairplease]

i was simply saying that american culture bashes people for trying and failing, and that something more secure/conservative like a BA/BS degree is seen as a greater accomplishment than earning 20 ATP points. the pure competitiveness of american tennis should make it the best, but few kids here focus on tennis to the extent top spanish, french etc... players do"

I think this is a slightly different issue. The USTA and others have failed to spark the public's interest in tennis. In the US there are entire communities that rally behind elite players in other sports. In fact, more press is spent on them than on achievements in academics and we certainly can not argue that, as a nation, we are obssessed with academic performance. No. Terms used to describe really great academics are not the most positive. In fact, elite athlete is an expression we hear a lot. Elite student? no. Nerd...loser...zipper head... So, for tennis the issue seems to be a matter of it being less popular and , for boys, perhaps less macho than baseball, football, etc. If the USTA can go beyon throwing a few free balls to parks by changing things that make it impossible for most kids to compete in tennis, maybe things could change.

[andfor]

i was simply saying that american culture bashes people for trying and failing, and that something more secure/conservative like a BA/BS degree is seen as a greater accomplishment than earning 20 ATP points. the pure competitiveness of american tennis should make it the best, but few kids here focus on tennis to the extent top spanish, french etc... players do"

I think this is a slightly different issue. The USTA and others have failed to spark the public's interest in tennis. In the US there are entire communities that rally behind elite players in other sports. In fact, more press is spent on them than on achievements in academics and we certainly can not argue that, as a nation, we are obssessed with academic performance. No. Terms used to describe really great academics are not the most positive. In fact, elite athlete is an expression we hear a lot. Elite student? no. Nerd...loser...zipper head... So, for tennis the issue seems to be a matter of it being less popular and , for boys, perhaps less macho than baseball, football, etc. If the USTA can go beyon throwing a few free balls to parks by changing things that make it impossible for most kids to compete in tennis, maybe things could change.

Remember that foreign tennis players do not have a college system with organized sports like the United States. They may have club tennis but it's very informal. The reason many of the foreigners try tennis professionally out of high school is because they know they can go to school if they don't make it. They can also go to school in their country and play pro circuit tennis at the same time and it does not impact their studies. The American college system plays right into that. If they don't make it after a couple of years and want to go to school and play tennis they can go to the states and get a tennis scholarship.

It's a little riskier to try the same thing as a resident American. The safe route (retaining eligibility status) is college first then pro tennis.

The NCAA's has made an attempt to move the ages back to when a player can start school and remain eligible. I know that if my kid sat out 2 or 3 years or entered the military and then wanted to go to college and play tennis I would not want his age to stop him. They have also tried, though not always successful to catch those foreign players who to try to enter the system that have overstepped the boundaries of amateur versus pro. ref. Arkansas Women’s tennis, a player had to serve a suspension for not disclosing prize money. There is still some work to do ref. Baylor U. men, they got caught after the players had left, ie. Dorsch and Becker.

I believe the factors outside the U. S. contribute to why we see older foreigners starting their Freshman year in the states. All in all I personally don't see this a massive problem as some do. Although I feel the pain of those who don't like the foreign influx I'm still OK with the system as it is. Personally I liked the foreigners on my team and enjoyed the competition. My main concern is that when my kids get to college if they want to play plenty of tennis programs will still be around.

[MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER]

I know my boy is learning to curse in many colorful ways, thanks to foreign players- also learning how to roll his racket up and down his arm, a very important life skill for later.

I like the NCAA response by "watering down" number of foreign players by including ALL "NCAA members" including DIII- so it looks like 16% foreign men
when (Scholarship) DI taken alone, jumps to a much. much higher number- These are the same knuckleheads who make up more and more regulations to enforce, so they have jobs.

[tenniscrazed]

I know my boy is learning to curse in many colorful ways, thanks to foreign players- also learning how to roll his racket up and down his arm, a very important life skill for later.

I like the NCAA response by "watering down" number of foreign players by including ALL "NCAA members" including DIII- so it looks like 16% foreign men
when (Scholarship) DI taken alone, jumps to a much. much higher number- These are the same knuckleheads who make up more and more regulations to enforce, so they have jobs.

Mighty the Wonder, nice to have you back. Just so you know how much BS we are being fed. I actually got the EXACT same letter by email. They couldn't even find it in themselves to respond to each individual. We are just flies on the dogs back. I say we become fleas and start to bite in like manner. The NCAA just copied the email to each receipient. Clearly, they don't care about the welfare of our children and are acting more like a bureaucratic, socialist agency with nothing more than self protection. This all MUST change and it is incumbent on us to pressure change.

[Tipster]

The following is my E-Mail to the NCAA:

Dear sir,

I am attaching a "blog" so to speak to you and the topic is about foreign tennis players. My name is Tip Kirwan and my moniker is "Tipster". I initiated this discussion because tennis has become an endangered sport in upper level athletics.

I taught my son, Taylor how to play tennis just because it is a life time sport, however, in retrospect I should have kept him in a sport that he could play in College.

Foreign tennis players have become a huge problem in Colleges nationwide. There are tens of thousands of players who are being shut out because of the foreign "mercenaries." These are kids who are every bit as good as myself, my brother and my sister who played at Texas Tech, Texas A&M and St. Mary's respectively. These are kids whose parents have paid taxes which go to the schools that are awarding all of these free tax-paid scholarships to foreign players whose countries do not reciprocate and are not near as generous with their money to foreigners. These are kids who will wise up like me and not teach their kids to play tennis.

Of course Title IX is one of the problems and many people talk about it in the blog I linked here. And then there is the fact that your institution has proclaimed that men may only award 4.5 scholarship and women may only award 6!

One of my comments on the blog mentions it doesn't matter if everyone is from out of the country as long as 50% are female and 50% are male. Going a step further, the way it's going with many schools canceling their lower level sports, it really doesn't matter to the NCAA if there are no College sports as long as there are not any more women not participating than men.

I urge you to look in to this problem, read these people's concerns and do some research and then do something about it. For starters, check out how many kids currently play tennis and check out their level of expertise. You will be surprised how good they really are! Also, you might send members of the U.S.T.A. questionaires as to whether or not they are interested in playing after high school. Then follow up with them as to whether or not their dreams were met. If you want my opinion we should not allow any scholarships to any foreigners period. Any American boy or girl should be more important to your organization. #2: Insofar as Title IX, the ruling is simply that there shall be no discrimination. It does not say that you need X number of girl participation as boys.

At the rate all of this is going, the only sports for boys will be football and basketball. When this happens, we will all point to why it occurred and who was in charge. It's the american way!

Thanks,

Tip Kirwan
Midland, TX

[Pusher]

i was simply saying that american culture bashes people for trying and failing, and that something more secure/conservative like a BA/BS degree is seen as a greater accomplishment than earning 20 ATP points. the pure competitiveness of american tennis should make it the best, but few kids here focus on tennis to the extent top spanish, french etc... players do.

I really don't know how anyone can say that american juniors don't focus on tennis as much as spanish or french kids. This seems to be a given assumption that normally goes unchallenged and thus leads people to assume the foreign players are more worthy of getting a tennis scholarship. The serious juniors I know are spending 6 days a week on court and I don't know how much more dedicated they can be. The players with parents with deep pockets are off to the VanDameer and Smith/Stearns acadamies at Hilton Head to train virtually full time.

I'm not banging on you necessarily as I hear this from a few tennis instructors as well-mostly teaching pros that came to the US as college players, got their green card and now teach tennis. I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing a teaching pro say, "This is how we do it in Spain". Well, historically, with the exception of the freakish Nadal, the spanish haul of grand slam victories pales in comparison to the US players. My son usually responds that he's not interested in becoming a baseline grinder.

Spanish or french kids are not somehow intrinsically more dedicated than american kids.

[Pusher]

The following is my E-Mail to the NCAA:

Dear sir,

I am attaching a "blog" so to speak to you and the topic is about foreign tennis players. My name is Tip Kirwan and my moniker is "Tipster". I initiated this discussion because tennis has become an endangered sport in upper level athletics.

I taught my son, Taylor how to play tennis just because it is a life time sport, however, in retrospect I should have kept him in a sport that he could play in College.

Foreign tennis players have become a huge problem in Colleges nationwide. There are tens of thousands of players who are being shut out because of the foreign "mercenaries." These are kids who are every bit as good as myself, my brother and my sister who played at Texas Tech, Texas A&M and St. Mary's respectively. These are kids whose parents have paid taxes which go to the schools that are awarding all of these free tax-paid scholarships to foreign players whose countries do not reciprocate and are not near as generous with their money to foreigners. These are kids who will wise up like me and not teach their kids to play tennis.

Of course Title IX is one of the problems and many people talk about it in the blog I linked here. And then there is the fact that your institution has proclaimed that men may only award 4.5 scholarship and women may only award 6!

One of my comments on the blog mentions it doesn't matter if everyone is from out of the country as long as 50% are female and 50% are male. Going a step further, the way it's going with many schools canceling their lower level sports, it really doesn't matter to the NCAA if there are no College sports as long as there are not any more women not participating than men.

I urge you to look in to this problem, read these people's concerns and do some research and then do something about it. For starters, check out how many kids currently play tennis and check out their level of expertise. You will be surprised how good they really are! Also, you might send members of the U.S.T.A. questionaires as to whether or not they are interested in playing after high school. Then follow up with them as to whether or not their dreams were met. If you want my opinion we should not allow any scholarships to any foreigners period. Any American boy or girl should be more important to your organization. #2: Insofar as Title IX, the ruling is simply that there shall be no discrimination. It does not say that you need X number of girl participation as boys.

At the rate all of this is going, the only sports for boys will be football and basketball. When this happens, we will all point to why it occurred and who was in charge. It's the american way!

Thanks,

Tip Kirwan
Midland, TX

Excellent job Tip.

If you want to post the E-mail adress I'll give the NCAA some opinions as well.

And if you happen to see GW around town tell him we could use his support.

[sureshs]

The following is my E-Mail to the NCAA:

Dear sir,

I am attaching a "blog" so to speak to you and the topic is about foreign tennis players. My name is Tip Kirwan and my moniker is "Tipster". I initiated this discussion because tennis has become an endangered sport in upper level athletics.

I taught my son, Taylor how to play tennis just because it is a life time sport, however, in retrospect I should have kept him in a sport that he could play in College.

Foreign tennis players have become a huge problem in Colleges nationwide. There are tens of thousands of players who are being shut out because of the foreign "mercenaries." These are kids who are every bit as good as myself, my brother and my sister who played at Texas Tech, Texas A&M and St. Mary's respectively. These are kids whose parents have paid taxes which go to the schools that are awarding all of these free tax-paid scholarships to foreign players whose countries do not reciprocate and are not near as generous with their money to foreigners. These are kids who will wise up like me and not teach their kids to play tennis.

Of course Title IX is one of the problems and many people talk about it in the blog I linked here. And then there is the fact that your institution has proclaimed that men may only award 4.5 scholarship and women may only award 6!

One of my comments on the blog mentions it doesn't matter if everyone is from out of the country as long as 50% are female and 50% are male. Going a step further, the way it's going with many schools canceling their lower level sports, it really doesn't matter to the NCAA if there are no College sports as long as there are not any more women not participating than men.

I urge you to look in to this problem, read these people's concerns and do some research and then do something about it. For starters, check out how many kids currently play tennis and check out their level of expertise. You will be surprised how good they really are! Also, you might send members of the U.S.T.A. questionaires as to whether or not they are interested in playing after high school. Then follow up with them as to whether or not their dreams were met. If you want my opinion we should not allow any scholarships to any foreigners period. Any American boy or girl should be more important to your organization. #2: Insofar as Title IX, the ruling is simply that there shall be no discrimination. It does not say that you need X number of girl participation as boys.

At the rate all of this is going, the only sports for boys will be football and basketball. When this happens, we will all point to why it occurred and who was in charge. It's the american way!

Thanks,

Tip Kirwan
Midland, TX

And how does Title IX implement no discrimination without allocating funds and teams for girls? Just claim that "Sorry, there are no girl's tennis teams, so we are not discriminating against you, since no girl can play - see you"? What an idiotic post. If your son cannot compete with other boys, I see no reason why he should be accomodated at the expense of girls. Let him learn to compete with his peers and rise up. Just because he played tennis or you spent money on him means nothing. No one is guaranteed a job after N years of education. Tennis players outside the top 150 struggle to make a living. There is no "right" for a boy to get anything at the expense of a girl - he has to make it to the top of his league, or do something else.

[Pusher]

And how does Title IX implement no discrimination without allocating funds and teams for girls? Just claim that "Sorry, there are no girl's tennis teams, so we are not discriminating against you, since no girl can play - see you"? What an idiotic post. If your son cannot compete with other boys, I see no reason why he should be accomodated at the expense of girls. Let him learn to compete with his peers and rise up. Just because he played tennis or you spent money on him means nothing. No one is guaranteed a job after N years of education. Tennis players outside the top 150 struggle to make a living. There is no "right" for a boy to get anything at the expense of a girl - he has to make it to the top of his league, or do something else.

Talk about convoluted logic...

The nonsense going on with Title IX is just silly, you couldn't make this stuff up. My alma mater has started a varsity equestrian team for God's sake. Now we have frigging horses on scholarship. Female horses of course.

The whole deal is about a few femi ****s being upset about football. Well they gave scholarships to the cheerleaders (like thats a sport), gave them to girls that can row a boat, bowl or play crocquet. What next, beauticians battling it out to the final four?

[tenniscrazed]

Excellent job Tip.

If you want to post the E-mail adress I'll give the NCAA some opinions as well.

And if you happen to see GW around town tell him we could use his support.


Here is the email address of the famed NCAA copy and paste expert.

Zeller, Leeland [lzeller@ncaa.org]

The NCAA regulates the adoption of legislation. It is up to the members of the NCAA to propose legislation that must be voted on by the membership. The membership includes all D1 - DIII including but not limited to NAIA schools.

Just like they do overseas in professional sports (limiting the number of non resident alien athletes) we should reciprocate in like manner. Limit the number of non resident alien athletes and NO "grants in aid" AKA scholarships. The solution is simple.

But watch as all the foreign athletes go crazy because they are really here to either gain the free training etc., get the student visa, then ultimately get the work visa while working at as a "tennis academy" specialist. Because here in America we don't have access to US coaches, fitness trainers, chiropractors so we need green carded "specialists" from Serbia, Russia, or Spain. The system is allowing for this abuse and it must stop.

[tenniscrazed]

If I appear passionate about this issue it's not only because I have kids playing in sports that may or may not even exist in 10 years. It is because I know first hand (my sons coach is here on a "work visa"), played at a D1 school on scholarship. On that roster there was 1 American player. And the NCAA has the audacity to say that our choice should be made based on education first and not athletics. Hello, the guy went to Pepperdine for goodness sake. A fine school from both standpoints.

[racingdad23]

The following is my E-Mail to the NCAA:

Dear sir,

I am attaching a "blog" so to speak to you and the topic is about foreign tennis players. My name is Tip Kirwan and my moniker is "Tipster". I initiated this discussion because tennis has become an endangered sport in upper level athletics.

I taught my son, Taylor how to play tennis just because it is a life time sport, however, in retrospect I should have kept him in a sport that he could play in College.

Foreign tennis players have become a huge problem in Colleges nationwide. There are tens of thousands of players who are being shut out because of the foreign "mercenaries." These are kids who are every bit as good as myself, my brother and my sister who played at Texas Tech, Texas A&M and St. Mary's respectively. These are kids whose parents have paid taxes which go to the schools that are awarding all of these free tax-paid scholarships to foreign players whose countries do not reciprocate and are not near as generous with their money to foreigners. These are kids who will wise up like me and not teach their kids to play tennis.

Of course Title IX is one of the problems and many people talk about it in the blog I linked here. And then there is the fact that your institution has proclaimed that men may only award 4.5 scholarship and women may only award 6!.....................

Well Tip thats about the same letter as I wrote them......Im just about sure that you will get the same cut and pasted BS reply that the rest of us did. :sad: Thanks for the efoort though. We need more voices....the more voices the louder the message.

[tenniscrazed]

Well Tip thats about the same letter as I wrote them......Im just about sure that you will get the same cut and pasted BS reply that the rest of us did. :sad: Thanks for the efoort though. We need more voices....the more voices the louder the message.

Per the NCAA "Of course, the staff, including the president, can make suggestions and provide some influence on the process, but, ultimately, the membership has the power to adopt and change the rules as they see fit"

The media "provides influence" as well. Maybe if we had more local talent playing at all levels there would be more media. And as we all know, more media is more sponsorship etc. Media is inclusive of webcasts in this text.

[Tipster]

Excellent job Tip.

If you want to post the E-mail adress I'll give the NCAA some opinions as well.

And if you happen to see GW around town tell him we could use his support.

Thanks! Actually, I sent my particular E-Mail to this person at NCAA (aka heavily fortified college bureaucrat castle) who is supposed to be over tennis D1: mbockelman@ncaa.org.
You know, the deal which gives young men the incentive to be the number 1 player in the country so you can play at a Division 1 school. RE: the post that says that mine is "idiotic". Translation: Pay your blankety blank taxes and shut up!

Actually, the Bush Administration had a commission on Title IX. The commission in short was not able to affect the status quo. I believe one of the recommendations was to let the people from Mexico play in the place of Lars and Boris. :p

The President cannot change the status quo, but we can. Just put the heat on your school. They'll pay attention. My understanding is this is exactly what happened at A&M just recently.

With respect to the canned response from the good doctor Leeland, it looks to me by reading his response that he thinks that he makes up the rules at the NCAA. Translation: Pay your blankety blank taxes and shut up!


P. S. I remember a guy who got a scholarship at A&M in the 70's and he won State in Class A. That would never happen these days!

[AndrewD]

Remember that foreign tennis players do not have a college system with organized sports like the United States. They may have club tennis but it's very informal.


The club system is Germany is far beyond anything available in the United States (or any other country I can think of). It's a professional league where the top competition is quite a ways beyond the highest level available in college tennis. Other countries have similar set-ups, although they lack the financial power and, subsequently, the calibre of player, found in the German leagues. However, IN NO WAY is club tennis merely informal in those countries.

[Hooooon]

i was simply saying that american culture bashes people for trying and failing, and that something more secure/conservative like a BA/BS degree is seen as a greater accomplishment than earning 20 ATP points. the pure competitiveness of american tennis should make it the best, but few kids here focus on tennis to the extent top spanish, french etc... players do"

I think this is a slightly different issue. The USTA and others have failed to spark the public's interest in tennis. In the US there are entire communities that rally behind elite players in other sports. In fact, more press is spent on them than on achievements in academics and we certainly can not argue that, as a nation, we are obssessed with academic performance. No. Terms used to describe really great academics are not the most positive. In fact, elite athlete is an expression we hear a lot. Elite student? no. Nerd...loser...zipper head... So, for tennis the issue seems to be a matter of it being less popular and , for boys, perhaps less macho than baseball, football, etc. If the USTA can go beyon throwing a few free balls to parks by changing things that make it impossible for most kids to compete in tennis, maybe things could change.

you either didn't understand or disregarded what i wrote. of the thousands of atp players only 50 or so (maybe only half that) are considered successful in the states. hundreds of players that never play in a grand slam work just as hard as federer/nadal/whoever and don't get quite as good. go watch a futures tournament, the players there will look just as good as federer to you if you are a sub 5.0 player... just like at the top of the game, americans are under-represented at all levels of pro tennis.
tennis might be a game that anyone can play, but atp players are the best athletes in the world. tennis requires nearly the same amount skill as golf, as much explosiveness as basketball and as much endurance as soccer.
regarding academics; i wasn't talking about the media headlines i was talking about peoples perceptions. it's considered whimsical to play pro tennis if a player has not won national junior titles. a degree is considered a necessary backup, and for someone with no academic interests (or professional interests that utilize what's learned in college) earning a degree is a waste of time and a big misdirection... ultimately i believe the greatest lessons are learned from experience and nobody should be afraid to fail.

[Hooooon]

I really don't know how anyone can say that american juniors don't focus on tennis as much as spanish or french kids. This seems to be a given assumption that normally goes unchallenged and thus leads people to assume the foreign players are more worthy of getting a tennis scholarship. The serious juniors I know are spending 6 days a week on court and I don't know how much more dedicated they can be. The players with parents with deep pockets are off to the VanDameer and Smith/Stearns acadamies at Hilton Head to train virtually full time.

I'm not banging on you necessarily as I hear this from a few tennis instructors as well-mostly teaching pros that came to the US as college players, got their green card and now teach tennis. I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing a teaching pro say, "This is how we do it in Spain". Well, historically, with the exception of the freakish Nadal, the spanish haul of grand slam victories pales in comparison to the US players. My son usually responds that he's not interested in becoming a baseline grinder.

Spanish or french kids are not somehow intrinsically more dedicated than american kids.

sorry to be blunt, but how good is your kid? who does he work with? how much does he play each day?
eauropean kids are by no means innately harder working, but their culture teaches them to work hard at what they enjoy. their coaches are all former tour players, not middle aged men who couldn't make it in other walks of the competitive american economy.

[coloskier]

My view is that since you are talking about a US college, each college team should be allowed only 1 foreign player on their team. Of course, if you tried to do this in ice hockey, you would have no team.

[tenniscrazed]

sorry to be blunt, but how good is your kid? who does he work with? how much does he play each day?
eauropean kids are by no means innately harder working, but their culture teaches them to work hard at what they enjoy. their coaches are all former tour players, not middle aged men who couldn't make it in other walks of the competitive american economy.

Since you are so inquisitive Hooooon, let me ask you a few questions.

1) Are you a US Citizen or a Resident Alien? (school or work visa)

2) If not, when was the last time your family paid income taxes? (State or Federal)?

3) Are you attending a State or Private university in the US?

4) Are you on scholarship of any sorts academic or athletic?

5) If 1 non resident alien was allowed on your team, would you be there still?

With all due respect if you answer these questions with the answers that I think you will, the problem becomes rather clear.

Euro basketball and soccer (euro football) leagues have strict limit as to the number of foreign players on the roster why?, and how is that different from limiting the number of foreign players on our rosters?

In closing, if you don't go pro are you planning to stay in this country on a work visa of some sort or go back with your American tax paid education?

[Hooooon]

Since you are so inquisitive Hooooon, let me ask you a few questions.

1) Are you a US Citizen or a Resident Alien? (school or work visa)
citizen

2) If not, when was the last time your family paid income taxes? (State or Federal)?

3) Are you attending a State or Private university in the US?
no
4) Are you on scholarship of any sorts academic or athletic?
no, graduated after earning each
5) If 1 non resident alien was allowed on your team, would you be there still?
they were and i was
With all due respect if you answer these questions with the answers that I think you will, the problem becomes rather clear.

Euro basketball and soccer (euro football) leagues have strict limit as to the number of foreign players on the roster why?, and how is that different from limiting the number of foreign players on our rosters?

In closing, if you don't go pro are you planning to stay in this country on a work visa of some sort or go back with your American tax paid education?

you buying my plane ticket?

[BradBaughman]

I have a story to tell you strait from a d1 coach and his recruiting trip ,

as him and the head coach sat over dinner with the possible "recruity" the mom and her had a disagreement! the mom asked the daughter to do something and what was asked was a very resanable request ,, but the daughter who was so used to running the show and having everything handed to her or bought!! told her mom off (disrespect) right there in front of the coaches, she forgot who was sitting there duh!!

here she is sitting there looking at a full ride,, both coaches very interested in her ,, stood up and walked out !!!

what the story is, is what is happening across our nation ,, the coaches have a choice to make! this American kid that expects everything handed to them, never diciplined, dont want to work hard, every one being positive about everything they do good or bad !

PHDs are important before you enter college
or this kid who is Poor Hungry and Driven taught to respect the hand that is feeding them!!! WHO DO YOU THINK THE COACH IS GONNA PICK and to top it off both kids alot of times can win the same amount!!!!

this is the fact we need to get our kids up to speed ,Hard work pays off parents!!!

[BradBaughman]

you buying my plane ticket?

hoooon if you are here taking advantage of the system just make sure you are "willing" to pay back this great system!! you will owe and when you owe you must pay back, enjoy the greatness of this country and remember its about your integrity and honor, that says who you are!!

[Hooooon]

hoooon if you are here taking advantage of the system just make sure you are "willing" to pay back this great system!! you will owe and when you owe you must pay back, enjoy the greatness of this country and remember its about your integrity and honor, that says who you are!!

i live where i was born... california

[BradBaughman]

i live where i was born... california

then you owe mom and dad no dought!!! go give them a hug they could probably use it !!Brad