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smiley74
10-24-2007, 10:18 AM
I went to ask for a Wilson demo at my club and the office person asked if I had wrist/elbow/shoulder problems. I asked why and she said that Wilson's are known for creating these problems or making them worse. True or myth?

rvicelli
10-24-2007, 10:19 AM
I was told the samething when I was Looking..Hmmmmm

galatti
10-24-2007, 10:51 AM
OMG. Can't believe they said that. It seems the are being safe to avoid being sued :o

smiley74
10-24-2007, 11:31 AM
OMG. Can't believe they said that. It seems the are being safe to avoid being sued :o

I don't think so because the Wilson ones were the only one she said that with.....weird, huh?? Plus, they sell all brands so she has no reason to be bias....

Klatu Verata Necktie
10-24-2007, 11:38 AM
What stick were you demoing? I find that Wilson's palyer's racquets can be quite stiff with smallish sweet spots which may contribute to pre existing arm problems. The K90 is one of my favorite sticks, but I had to put it on the back burner because it was too tough on my arm (strung with full poly).

LPShanet
10-24-2007, 02:37 PM
I went to ask for a Wilson demo at my club and the office person asked if I had wrist/elbow/shoulder problems. I asked why and she said that Wilson's are known for creating these problems or making them worse. True or myth?

It's nonsense. There is no one brand that causes more wrist/elbow/shoulder problems. Those are related to stiffness, shock, weight, swingweight, etc. And all racquet companies have racquets in varying degrees of each.

If the place doesn't carry Wilson (or didn't have the demo in), then they may have been trying to get you to play something else so they can sell it. They also may only happen to carry particularly light and/or stiff Wilsons. If they do have a variety of the Wilson racquets in stock, they are simply misinformed, and have been victim to the tennis equivalent of an urban myth. (Ask them if they heard about the gerbils and Richard Gere.) Since it was an "office person", I'd suggest consulting an experienced "tennis person" next time.

If we were trying to be like the Mythbusters on TV, and were looking for any kernel of twisted truth that might have spawned this myth, it might be that many years ago, Wilson were the inventors of the ultra-stiff Profile widebody racquet, and the original versions of the ultra-light Hammer series, both of which have long been out of production and the technologies of which have been considerably tamed since. Since extreme stiffness and very light weights are both correctly associated with joint problems and other connective tissue injuries, those technologies may have led some people to the wrong conclusion about Wilson as a brand quite a while ago.

Which specific models were you trying to demo?

drakulie
10-24-2007, 02:45 PM
I went to ask for a Wilson demo at my club and the office person asked if I had wrist/elbow/shoulder problems. I asked why and she said that Wilson's are known for creating these problems or making them worse. True or myth?

LMAO! funniest thing I've heard since hearing a particular frame could help you go from one NTRP level to a higher one.

julianoz
10-24-2007, 03:34 PM
Sounds like she is a head/babolat/prince rep

smiley74
10-25-2007, 04:16 AM
Hi! Thanks again for replies. I was trying to demo a Wilson Zen. It is supposedly a good step up from an entry level racquet (which I have now) and also good for a first competition racquet (which I need for my first comp. in December).

I hit a topspin forehand as my bread and butter shot so I do need a racquet that can produce good spin as opposed to one more suited to people who hit flat. Plus, slice on backhand. Also, I am a serve and volley player and come to the net a lot. Any other recommendations would be VERY much appreciated. Thanks so much for your help!!!

It is so overwhelming to read these threads as a new player! The talk on strings just blows my mind and I am SO not even there yet to understand string technology! LOL

LPShanet
10-25-2007, 05:10 AM
Hi! Thanks again for replies. I was trying to demo a Wilson Zen. It is supposedly a good step up from an entry level racquet (which I have now) and also good for a first competition racquet (which I need for my first comp. in December).

I hit a topspin forehand as my bread and butter shot so I do need a racquet that can produce good spin as opposed to one more suited to people who hit flat. Plus, slice on backhand. Also, I am a serve and volley player and come to the net a lot. Any other recommendations would be VERY much appreciated. Thanks so much for your help!!!

It is so overwhelming to read these threads as a new player! The talk on strings just blows my mind and I am SO not even there yet to understand string technology! LOL

First off, take a deep breath:) There is no "correct" racquet or string, only the ones that you like. As you'll hear many people on these boards advise, the most important thing is to demo a lot of racquets thoroughly. Don't worry very much about people's specific recommendations, as almost all of the racquets available will work just fine. It's just a matter of selecting the one that feels good to you now. The worst that can happen is that you'll find yourself buying another one later as your ability progresses and you become better acquainted with which qualities you like in a racquet.

If you're not already nursing any aches and pains, I'd worry less about what some random desk person at a club says. (However, if you do start feeling recurring pain at any time, don't ignore it. As I mentioned previously, very light and very stiff racquets can exacerbate injury issues, so if you want to be safe, you can steer yourself away from those.)

In general, the prevailing wisdom is that you should play with the heaviest weight of racquet that you can comfortably swing without affecting your game/stroke production. So, if you're already interested in the KZen series, I'd suggest you first demo the regular model over the "Team" version, which is much lighter. But also throw in a few more flexible racquets (at least below 68 on the RA scale) in your demo efforts to see if you like those. The KZen is fairly stiff at about 70 RA.

In terms of producing spin, it's really the player, not the racquet. People overstate the importance of the racquet in this. Any racquet with a fairly open string pattern that isn't super heavy in the head (swingweight) will allow you to produce effective spin. Spin is just a function of racquet head speed, so you are the one producing it, not the racquet.

And in the string department, I'd say it's not time to worry about it yet. Just go with a decent quality synthetic gut or multifilament nylon string (there are dozens of good ones avaiable at almost any shop) and leave the talk about poly, gut and others for a time when you're more able to reap the benefits of those strings. Gut plays great, but costs more than you need to spend as a newly learning player. (It also needs to be maintained more carefully than other strings in terms of avoiding moisture, temperature changes, etc. Not worth it for you at this stage.) Poly is mainly geared towards hard hitters who need added control of their powerful spin strokes, but can be hard on your arm if you don't have well-established mechanics. And once you start talking about hybrids, the discussion could last all year. Do yourself a favor and avoid all that talk for now.

smiley74
10-25-2007, 05:26 AM
Thanks for your great post!

I do have a couple questions if you don't mind...

When I demo a racquet how long should I use it for? Would using it during my tennis lesson or using the ball machine for an hour be enough or should I try it for several times?

Also, I have noticed my bicep hurts on my hitting arm. I don't know if it is because I try to muscle the ball sometimes without rotating and keeping a open wrist; whether I am playing too much (6 days a week); or if it is my racquet.

I am currently using a cheapo that my hubby bought at Walmart! Yikes!!!! It's called Cinesis Exia or something. However, I am pretty serious; take 6 hours of lessons a week; and owrk on my own during my "off days" on my serve and with the ball machine. Even though I have only been playing about 2 months, I am improving really fast due to my strong athleticism and ability to pick up different strokes. I have my first tournament in December so I want to get an appropriate racquet.

I can generate a lot of power on my own and a lot of pace. However, when I try to hit my topspin forehand, I do hit the net more than I would like (it is probably me but I do feel I am getting under the ball). I wonder if my racquet is geared more for hitting a flat ball.

I also come to the net a lot and I think I am shaping up to be a serve and volley player as during fun matches I win most of my points at the net. My current racquet doesn't feel as solid at the net (if that makes sense).

It feels like a much lighter racquet compared to when I try the racquets of other players.

So, any additional thoughts from you or anyone would be super! Sorry to bug you all. *blushing*

cknobman
10-25-2007, 06:04 AM
Its the truth in my case. Went from O3 white to K95. Within 2 weeks I developed a arm, shoulder, elbow problem. Went to spblack and everything went back to normal.

smiley74
10-25-2007, 06:16 AM
Its the truth in my case. Went from O3 white to K95. Within 2 weeks I developed a arm, shoulder, elbow problem. Went to spblack and everything went back to normal.

Sorry..what is 03 white? Is that a type of racquet?

Are you between 3.0 and 4.0?

Does the 03 give you good spin and control?

Does it play well at the net?

Thanks! Trying to educate myself.....

daddy.dirtsurfer
10-25-2007, 06:31 AM
Wilson PS Tour 90 gave me TE and wrist injury until Redondo Mid cured them all.

protourOS
10-25-2007, 06:41 AM
Hi Smiley74,

"03 white" is a Prince racquet model.

If you are playing as regularily as it sounds, it's definitely time to get a better quality racquet than the one you are currently using.

My advice would be to talk to your coach about recommending you some racquets for your level of play.

Then the best thing you can do is demo as many as possible (in your price range) to find out what feels "right" for you. The right racquet for one person may well not be the right racket for someone else...

Good luck and enjoy the tennis!

smiley74
10-25-2007, 06:47 AM
Hi Smiley74,

"03 white" is a Prince racquet model.

If you are playing as regularily as it sounds, it's definitely time to get a better quality racquet than the one you are currently using.

My advice would be to talk to your coach about recommending you some racquets for your level of play.

Then the best thing you can do is demo as many as possible (in your price range) to find out what feels "right" for you. The right racquet for one person may well not be the right racket for someone else...

Good luck and enjoy the tennis!

Thanks!!! Yeah, my pro wants me to try the Wilson Surge!!!!!! He is a HUGE Wilson fan!! The club has a lot of the different Wilsons in stock but I don't want to create arm problems! Arghhhhh! I have to leave for my lesson soon so if you can recommend one to try that would be great!

protourOS
10-25-2007, 07:03 AM
try this guide - I would say pick any from the "tweener" section

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/LC/SelectingRacquet/SelectingRacquet.html

LPShanet
10-25-2007, 07:15 AM
Thanks for your great post!

I do have a couple questions if you don't mind...

When I demo a racquet how long should I use it for? Would using it during my tennis lesson or using the ball machine for an hour be enough or should I try it for several times?

Also, I have noticed my bicep hurts on my hitting arm. I don't know if it is because I try to muscle the ball sometimes without rotating and keeping a open wrist; whether I am playing too much (6 days a week); or if it is my racquet.

I am currently using a cheapo that my hubby bought at Walmart! Yikes!!!! It's called Cinesis Exia or something. However, I am pretty serious; take 6 hours of lessons a week; and owrk on my own during my "off days" on my serve and with the ball machine. Even though I have only been playing about 2 months, I am improving really fast due to my strong athleticism and ability to pick up different strokes. I have my first tournament in December so I want to get an appropriate racquet.

I can generate a lot of power on my own and a lot of pace. However, when I try to hit my topspin forehand, I do hit the net more than I would like (it is probably me but I do feel I am getting under the ball). I wonder if my racquet is geared more for hitting a flat ball.

I also come to the net a lot and I think I am shaping up to be a serve and volley player as during fun matches I win most of my points at the net. My current racquet doesn't feel as solid at the net (if that makes sense).

It feels like a much lighter racquet compared to when I try the racquets of other players.

So, any additional thoughts from you or anyone would be super! Sorry to bug you all. *blushing*

The more you can try a demo the better. It's a good idea to use it on more than one day, since we all have good days and bad ones. I'd also recommend trying it under the full range of conditions (and strokes) you plan to play under. Use it both in practice/lessons, and also in match situations. You may be surprised that it does better in one than the other. Generally, an hour doesn't really sound like enough to determine whether you really like a racquet, but it's often more than enough to eliminate one you definitely don't like.

As for the biceps pain, the bad news is it's probably a combination of technique and how much you're playing, although the wrong racquet can also contribute or exacerbate. However, biceps pain is very unusual for proper tennis strokes, so you can be pretty sure you're doing something wrong mechanically. The biceps is used in the action of bending the elbow in on it's hinge, which isn't really much of a factor in a correctly hit forehand or backhand. Sounds like you're doing most of the work with your lower arm and "fly-swatting" the ball. In other words, you're relying on a flick of your arm/wrist to generate your spin, rather than a long, smooth, fast completely stroke. A heavier racquet might discourage this a bit, although it won't feel as good to you at first, since you'll lose racquet speed (and spin) initially before you gain it back by hitting properly.

No matter what, it's time to throw out the "supermarket special" and get a proper racquet. That means don't buy it at any big box chain store (sports oriented or otherwise). Since you're doing 6 hours of lessons a week, you'll have plenty of time to demo racquets. Don't limit yourself to just what your club has in their shop. TW has a great demo program and stocks most of the racquets on the market. Don't be afraid to use their demo program. And stop assuming it's that your racquet is made for "flat hitting". Your current racquet isn't made for any kind of hitting...it's made for turning Walmart a few bucks profit in a category they shouldn't be in. As mentioned earlier, except at the advanced player level, the concept of a spin or flat racquet isn't really that relevant. A topspin stroke will produce topspin, even if it's hit with an old shoe (Bobby Riggs actually won quite a bit of money by beating players this way...seriously.) If you're hitting a lot of balls into the net, it's probably because you're flipping the racquet over when you hit your wrist/arm-generated "topspin". It's hard to be consistent with that type of stroke.

When considering how a racquet volleys, I think it's a little early in your development to know how "solid" a racquet feels, since your technique is going to take years to refine. I can pretty much guarantee that no Walmart racquet is going to feel solid, though and any real racquet you get will be better.

LPShanet
10-25-2007, 07:24 AM
Its the truth in my case. Went from O3 white to K95. Within 2 weeks I developed a arm, shoulder, elbow problem. Went to spblack and everything went back to normal.

Like with most such cases, this isn't because the racquet itself is a bad racquet. It's because your strokes were developed with a racquet of particular weight, balance, swingweight, headsize, etc. When you switched, you changed all that, and the new racquet wasn't in tune with your mechanics. That usually causes most players to muscle the ball in an effort to swing their usual way, rather than preparing earlier. When you later went to the Prince Black, you were switching to a racquet closer to your original specs (it's very close to the white in weight, swingweight and headsize) so it felt easier to adapt to. The problem wasn't with the Wilson brand, but with which racquet you chose. The two Princes were almost the same weight, balance, swingweight and headsize as each other, and the Wilson was 20 units heavier in both weight and swingweight and had a smaller head. (The stiffness of the 03 black is actually comparable to the K six one 95.)

However, in the OP's case, I don't recommend trying to find a racquet that matches the specs of a Walmart special.

LPShanet
10-25-2007, 07:38 AM
Thanks!!! Yeah, my pro wants me to try the Wilson Surge!!!!!! He is a HUGE Wilson fan!! The club has a lot of the different Wilsons in stock but I don't want to create arm problems! Arghhhhh! I have to leave for my lesson soon so if you can recommend one to try that would be great!

Again, stop thinking in terms of brands. Every brand makes decent racquets with specs comparable to those of other brands. The specific models are what determines how a racquet will play, not a brand. You don't think that all foods made by Del Monte taste the same, do you? I'd guess that their peaches taste more like other brands' peaches than they do like Del Monte green beans. It's a simple concept:)

And for the last time, Wilsons don't create arm problems. Bad technique or the wrong model for your game do. Start by trying the racquet your pro recommends, and ignore the insanity, generalizations and old wives tales you're hearing. Then, if you like it, go to the Tennis Warehouse (or other) site, and look up racquets with similar specs in terms of weight, swingweight, headsize and stiffness. Try them all and see which one you like best. If you don't like the racquet he gives you, figure out why (too light, too heavy, too stiff, too small, too large, etc.), and look for racquets that are likely to improve on it.

MrAWD
10-25-2007, 09:01 AM
Also, I have noticed my bicep hurts on my hitting arm. I don't know if it is because I try to muscle the ball sometimes without rotating and keeping a open wrist; whether I am playing too much (6 days a week); or if it is my racquet.
As others have noted previously, you might be using too much of the arm muscles and not using much of anything else (like your back, core, hips, and legs), which makes sense considering that you just started playing. Typically, lighter racquet will allow you to use too much of stuff that you shouldn't be doing (like you arm muscle). One way to know this is to try to use only two or three fingers (thumb and one or two more) and then try to hit the ball. If you are not able to hit the ball and your racquet is falling out of your hand then you need to work on your technique. This will also stop you from the iron clamp that you might be doing with your hand, which could cause some of the pain you described above.
The last thing here is to stretch after the game. If you biceps is hurting I would recommend going next to the fence facing it with your back. Raise the arm that hurts and grab the fence above your head with that hand. Then slowly lean forward by increasing the pressure to the top of your chest and biceps muscles. You can do similar stretch from the side too holding your arm parallel to the ground and slowly leaning forward.

I can generate a lot of power on my own and a lot of pace. However, when I try to hit my topspin forehand, I do hit the net more than I would like (it is probably me but I do feel I am getting under the ball). I wonder if my racquet is geared more for hitting a flat ball.
This goes along with the stuff above. If you are using only your arm to generate the spin then there will be nothing to propel the ball over the net. Most of the energy that you are putting onto the ball will go for the spin production and you will barely reach the bottom of the net!
The spin on the ball is actually generated mostly with your legs! You should try to use your upper body to generate the pace, but extension of the legs at the moment of impact with the ball will create that spin that you are trying to do! That way balls will fly over the net and still have spin to bring them down!

Good luck!


Fedja

fuzz nation
10-25-2007, 09:49 AM
Already a whole bunch of good input from our pals here and I only want to throw in a thought on managing your demos. In the same way that switching from the Prince O3 White to the K95 was bad for cknobman, switching can be potentially hard on any of us regardless of abilities. Changing racquets means that you're timing and muscle memory will probably be altered at least a little and that can be tough on the arm, so take your time.

If you're already comfortable with a demo, it might be OK to use it in a lesson, just as long as it doesn't distract you from the content of the lesson. Otherwise, I think it's smart to save the test drives for a setting where you're more in charge of what you're doing such as when you're having a practice hit or working out with a ball machine (an excellent option).

If I get hold of a couple of demos at once, it's better for me to start with the one that feel the heaviest to play with (highest swingweight) and work down from that one. If something feels just awful and gives your tennis brain an allergic reaction... NEXT! Dump it and don't look back; it's not for you. If I really think I like one after a bit of an outing, it's good for me to try it again on another day to sort of retest the fit. For me, two good outings are a very positive sign. Fifteen minutes with a demo is certainly helpful, but if I can use it for at least a half-hour, I get a better sense of how I settle in with a new racquet.

Up at net, lots of your comfort will be determined by the racquet's maneuverability along with it having enough mass to feel like it punches through the ball well. You sound like the one you have now is too light and getting pushed around by the ball. That drives me nuts... If you keep track of your demos in a notepad, you can get an idea of what you may prefer in a frame in terms of its weight, balance, etc. You never really know what will be a good fit for you until you try it, but those notes can be a helpful reference for tracking down good candidates. Have a blast out there and if those aches and pains like that bicep are persistent, heed the warnings from your bod and take an occasional day off from the courts.

smiley74
10-25-2007, 09:50 AM
Wow...awesome replies, guys! Lots of very accurate comments and great suggestions. I very much appreciate them.

Yeah, I do this weird wrist thing to create topspin but I do it with a laid back wrist and rotate through the ball. My pro doesn't like it but since I am swinging correctly through the ball he thinks it might just be my "wrinkle". I hit a one handed backhand as well if that matters for mucle use.

I just got back from my lesson. I tried the prince 03 black. Holy mother of Gosh!! I have NEVER hit the ball better. Even my volleys were the best ever! I hit everything OVER the net but 3 shots all lesson and they were actually in on the other side. Yahooooooo!!!!!!

Am I just faking myself out like taking a sugar pill or was it the racquet. If it was the racquet than Holy Frickin' cow!!!!!