Moonballers

[TENNIS 67]

Why are so many top players in the nation (10's and 12's, some 14's) are moonballing when they know that in a few years they will get crushed?

[Aeropro master]

Because their coaches try to get them highly ranked know and they don't think about the future. By the time they get to the 16s they get pwned.

[BradBaughman]

the problem is that the kids dont know there gonna get crushed and the coach collecting 60-80 hr doesnt care!! ,,hes giving the parents what they percieve to be a good deal,, there kid is winning and thats all that matters to them,, the parents dont understand theres two types of game junior and pro your training to be great at one or the other !!!

[Tennis_Bum]

the problem is that the kids dont know there gonna get crushed and the coach collecting 60-80 hr doesnt care!! ,,hes giving the parents what they percieve to be a good deal,, there kid is winning and thats all that matters to them,, the parents dont understand theres two types of game junior and pro your training to be great at one or the other !!!

Brad, my phone is acting crazy. I'll see you tomorrow at HP. Charging $60-80 is not a bad way to earn money in one hour of work. But teaching moonballs or not changing or encouraging the kids to drive, now that is really bad. To each his own. Parents are not smart enough to recognize the detrimental effects to their kids' games then they and the kids, mostly, will pay for the neglect later on. But if they happy with the win and don't really plan for later on then eventually they'll hit a brick wall. But of course, when you have deep pockets, you can afford to pay more money to fix the kids. That's why the coaches love parents like these.

[10isDad]

I see far less moon-ballers now than 5 years ago. More and more kids are driving through the ball these days.

[BradBaughman]

your right they are trying to drive through in most matches but when the top kids are playing some one that can out- hit them, trust me you can expect to see the space shuttle ride begin! 2-3 hrs later your done lololo

[CIoud]

your right they are trying to drive through in most matches but when the top kids are playing some one that can out- hit them, trust me you can expect to see the space shuttle ride begin! 2-3 hrs later your done lololo

lol.... and mabey we can use the drop shot to shoot missiles.. but the drivers would drive away....

[racingdad23]

your right they are trying to drive through in most matches but when the top kids are playing some one that can out- hit them, trust me you can expect to see the space shuttle ride begin! 2-3 hrs later your done lololo


See it happening every tournament. When they cant hang with a power player let the moonballs rain down from the heavens. Whats worse is the 10s and 12s playing up in the 14s that use this tactic to advance through the field. I think its terrible that we have to waste time to drill defensively against this. And I think its a despicable way to play. But thats the way it is so we have have to suck it up and go on. Too bad there isnt some sort of rule about it.

[brayman9]

i wouldn't put 14's in that list. Definetly to 10's and 12's though.

[theace21]

Kids stay with what they have found works. Some players realize they must change their game to improve, others do not.

[racingdad23]

i wouldn't put 14's in that list. Definetly to 10's and 12's though.


Mostly the 10s and 12s that play "up" in the 14s. But just two weeks ago I saw one rankied in the top 20 (B14) of the Missourri Valley Section play "up" in a non-sectional state level tournament in the B16s and have to resort to this tactic. He was down a couple of games and from then on just hit the topspin lob over and over again until he won the match...but this was nothing new for this player. The thing is he is a really good player, very smart good all around game. He just resorts to this tactic when he gets down and he sticks to it until its over. Very frustrating to players that "played hard tennis" to get to that point in the draw only to be eliminated by this method.

[soggyramen]

in the 14's and 12's in my area some kids go all out. many can hit harder and more accurate than most 16's

[babolatking]

usually size... idk but most of the moonballers that i know are really small and can't really do much else with the ball

[trojankid]

Ive played a lot of them and they are a pain but now it is still a little difficult to play them but i now usually i beat them but the parents of these kid want the best for them but when they get in the 14s 16s then the parents have rude awakening and then they try to make an arangment to get there kids to hit and then its to late awwwwwwwwwwww

[EasternRocks]

especailly in the 12s and 14s, moonballers (aka. pushers) are very successfull. they arent looking towards the future that much, and as they progress, older kids are going to crush them. not learning to play the game correctly is a problem with young american juniors these days. the jr.'s who go after their shots and take chances, are going to be successfull in the 16s and 18s. the 12s is the age group where you start how to construct and play a poing. 14's up is when it gets competitive and stronger kids come into practice.

[crazy8tiger]

I wouldn't say 14's b/c I played in one and there was good shots, the only moonballs(including me) were hit only when there was a mis-hit, frame hit, or just trying to keep it in play when out of position. But, I am in the So Cal division and not sure about yours.

[Killer Kiwi]

i wouldn't put 14's in that list. Definetly to 10's and 12's though.

i beg to differ

[Killer Kiwi]

especailly in the 12s and 14s, moonballers (aka. pushers) are very successfull. they arent looking towards the future that much, and as they progress, older kids are going to crush them. not learning to play the game correctly is a problem with young american juniors these days. the jr.'s who go after their shots and take chances, are going to be successfull in the 16s and 18s. the 12s is the age group where you start how to construct and play a poing. 14's up is when it gets competitive and stronger kids come into practice.

I agree... the american juniors have their heads up their behind. For example, in new zealand, where im from, there is no such thing as a moonball. It simply doesn't exist.

[trojankid]

hey killer kiwi if you want to own the 10's an 12's you want to win the nationals, eddie herr and orange bowl you better learn how to moonball pal

[NebAce1]

I agree... the american juniors have their heads up their behind. For example, in new zealand, where im from, there is no such thing as a moonball. It simply doesn't exist.

what r u ranked?

[Killer Kiwi]

what r u ranked?

rankings are irrelevant. its just a reflection of how many tournaments you play per year. As i dont hav the money to travel a heck of alot mine is probably crap.in fact a don't even check it. i simply enter a tournament and make sure i play my game and improve. win or lose i got better therefore achieved my goal.

[Killer Kiwi]

hey killer kiwi if you want to own the 10's an 12's you want to win the nationals, eddie herr and orange bowl you better learn how to moonball pal

lololol. that's why i dont enter such events. I dont want to waste my time learning a method that i will never be able to use successfully in the pros.

[trojankid]

lololol. that's why i dont enter such events. I dont want to waste my time learning a method that i will never be able to use successfully in the pros. got that right playing for 2-3 hours of moonballs is not my type of game and knowing it will get me nowhere in tennis

[tennisjunkie101]

lololol. that's why i dont enter such events. I dont want to waste my time learning a method that i will never be able to use successfully in the pros.

One of my freinds was there and said the 12s was won by a kid from Newport Beach ,Ca and won it with a very neutral game style was not hitting very agressive more on the defennsive, sounds like what you two are saying!

[trojankid]

One of my freinds was there and said the 12s was won by a kid from Newport Beach ,Ca and won it with a very neutral game style was not hitting very agressive more on the defennsive, sounds like what you two are saying!

ya that kid joesph digiulio i know him he plays very defensively= pushy he will hit with kids who arent very good but when he plays kids at the same level he tends to play defensively= pushy

[Killer Kiwi]

One of my freinds was there and said the 12s was won by a kid from Newport Beach ,Ca and won it with a very neutral game style was not hitting very agressive more on the defennsive, sounds like what you two are saying!

that's the jist of the 14s and below

[trojankid]

that's the jist of the 14s and below

theres a ton of kids in the nation that moonball and every year kids half to move up and each year and they end start losing more and more each and finally at the age of 15-16 and you dont even see there name so you got that right kiwi

[Killer Kiwi]

theres a ton of kids in the nation that moonball and every year kids half to move up and each year and they end start losing more and more each and finally at the age of 15-16 and you dont even see there name so you got that right kiwi

So your saying that we wont here the name joseph gijulio in 2-3 years?

[tzinc]

This is a prevalent attitude in the States: win at all costs, winning is the most important thing, sacrificing the future for short term gain, etc.

[JohnP]

God forbid someone plays to win a match. I'm amazed that a bunch of 10 year old kids figuring out how to win a match is an excuse to start masturbating about capitalism and american society.

[10nisDude~]

moonballers are good at situations change up the game once in awhile but...yeah its kinda dumb teaching kids like that...theyll get owned later in the later stages...i versed a DII college kid and i moonballed for the first three games and he got those three straight games easily...so i got serious and played my real game and lost in three sets...suks for me but i say it shows that moonballers wont get anywhere...

[TennisCoachFLA]

God forbid someone plays to win a match. I'm amazed that a bunch of 10 year old kids figuring out how to win a match is an excuse to start masturbating about capitalism and american society.

10 year olds who moonball are usually under immense pressure from parents to get ranking points. I have seen literally hundreds of kids who might have developed into real players ruined by this win now strategy. They never learn the game or reach their potential.

In the long run none of them get scholarships, none go pro, and almost all quit the sport. So they don't even get the benefit of a lifetime of fun and fitness that comes with tennis.

Sounds like a waste to me, how about you?

[redsoxrock930]

johnp thats basically the funniest thing i've ever heard

[trojankid]

10 year olds who moonball are usually under immense pressure from parents to get ranking points. I have seen literally hundreds of kids who might have developed into real players ruined by this win now strategy. They never learn the game or reach their potential.

In the long run none of them get scholarships, none go pro, and almost all quit the sport. So they don't even get the benefit of a lifetime of fun and fitness that comes with tennis.

Sounds like a waste to me, how about you?

tennis florida there is a club out here called woodbridge tennis center and they teach the moonball game and there players have alot sucess

[trojankid]

there players tend to hit with you but if your a better hitter they immediatly go to the moonball game and it works its not a bad thing cause the kids are doing well in tournament and thats what the parents want and pay for and some of the kids have managed top national rankings because of it!!! more power to them

[TennisCoachFLA]

there players tend to hit with you but if your a better hitter they immediatly go to the moonball game and it works its not a bad thing cause the kids are doing well in tournament and thats what the parents want and pay for and some of the kids have managed top national rankings because of it!!! more power to them

Exactly my point. They teach it so the kids can get rankings which lead to nowhere. No scholarships, obviously no pro game, and not even any life long fitness as nobody wants to play an adult moonballer at the local tennis club. They are like lepers at every adult tennis club I have ever seen.....adults have the wonderful ability of telling moonballers to get lost...and they do!

They can't use tennis for job advancement or networking as adults. So basically they end up with nothing from their junior tennis experience. It is a total dead end.

From my experience, once these moonballing kids start to realize the gig is up, they quit the sport. They lose a lot of self confidence as they now see that it was all a sham. Its the exact wrong way to go about enjoying and learning from tennis.

I guess the point of it must be the parents get some jollies having a top ranked 10-14 year old who doesn't learn the game and never plays tennis after age 16. Not sure what the purpose of that is, but whatever.

[dork2tennisstud]

As a 4.5-5.0 college club player who didn't start playing tennis until high school, I have to defend all the moonball bashers. For the elite few kids who can go pro, it's obviously a waste of time. They should learn proper technique, however . . .

When I started playing in high school, I lobbed the heck out of my opponents, because they weren't smart enough or talented enough to figure out a way to beat it.

I've never had a tennis lesson in my life, and my high school coach hardly played tennis. I became pretty good pretty quickly. I definitely have a strike first mentality now that my game's more developed, but I'm not afraid to counterpunch or moonball if it's effective.

In football, very few people complain about running the option in high school or college, even though they don't use it in the pros. I don't understand why some tennis players are elitist as to what type of playing style is best.

It's a shame, I guess, if young kids who don't know any better have visions of going pro and are being taught to moonball, but there's a point where kids/adults know what they're doing and are just employing whatever strategy works best for them.

There's something to say for having the guts and talent to go for your shots and swing free, but there's also something to say for running around like crazy and trying to fend off balls and keep them deep enough that you don't get killed.

[tenniscrazed]

Thats a tough one. Are they moonballs, or topspin lobs played even without the opponent at the net. On clay, heavy loopy topspin is how points are constructed. Flat, slow moonballs are easy to counteract and turn into offensive balls.

Heavy topspin, deep balls are very hard to fight and require incredible discipline to beat. So I think the best thing is to really define a "moonball".

[RestockingTues]

I see far less moon-ballers now than 5 years ago. More and more kids are driving through the ball these days.

I drive the ball... Right over the back fence ;)

[johlhausen]

I have been taking lessons from my local pro for 2 years, since I was 13. He straight-up told me that I may not have as much success now, but it will benefit me later. I blindly understood just because I loved tennis. More importantly, my parents understood. I am enjoying more success now as a serve & volleyer/allcourt player than I was 2 years ago, or even last year.

Point is, not all pros teach 10/12s/14s the same thing.

[Babb]

Moonballers only do it because it obviously works (for the moment). And who's gonna care what you were ranked when you were 12? At that age I had only been playing for about a year, but now I can keep up with kids that were practically raised with racquets in their hand. I could care less about things like that. All that matters is how good you are, not your freaking junior ranking. Junior rankings reflect how much free time you and your parents have. When you're twelve, get better. Don't waste your time on junior rankings.

[Babb]

I'm sorry if that angers anyone. Everything I said is just in my personal opinion.

[10isDad]

I'm sorry if that angers anyone. Everything I said is just in my personal opinion.

It's an opinion shared by many people. Junior tennis, at least pre-16s should be about performance not outcome.

[playfairplease]

There is another side. That's the loser who conjours up insults to justify why she lost. was at a tournament and listened to the kidz hanging after the matches .The'ar great at put down the opponents who beat them. Complaints "he's just a pusher", "moonballer" , "his life is all tennis and he aint that good" and on and on. Prob impt to distinguish sour grapes from a tennis style that really will impede later progress. I'm not convinced the complaints here and after matches are mostly in the best interst of the moonballer and discouraging things that may be harmful for future.. Much seems sour grapes.

[jmverdugo]

A moonball is a prefectly valid shot for a given situation. If you find yourself three feet behind the baseline and you are not strong enough what are you supose to do? hit a winner? a drive? is not possible. You have to be very strong to drive the ball from there.

As this kids get stronger they will develope more head speed and will be able to drive more thru the ball.

[iplaybetter]

i hate moon ballers

[playfairplease]

agree with JM! players have to be able to deal with the entire mix of possiblities. If a particular stroke is not working, the key is to know how and when to use another. Mixing it up. If Federer could win by mooning, he would do it all the time. Point is he can't or won't cauz he would lose. A little kid may do well at some points with moonballing. If you do not win, you do not get to play in the next round. So lossing with great looking shots really is not the key for a little kid wanting to improve. A child with only a moon ball will be out just as fast, Guess is that the moon balling and pushing is adaptive at some points for some kids in some circumstances. If you do not like it, evaluate why. It might be good to learn how to disrail the player serving them up. I am guessing that a kid consistently winning regardless of strokes used will adapt over time to a more mature style when and if the alternative begins to be more functional for the kid.

[BradBaughman]

agree with JM! players have to be able to deal with the entire mix of possiblities. If a particular stroke is not working, the key is to know how and when to use another. Mixing it up. If Federer could win by mooning, he would do it all the time. Point is he can't or won't cauz he would lose. A little kid may do well at some points with moonballing. If you do not win, you do not get to play in the next round. So lossing with great looking shots really is not the key for a little kid wanting to improve. A child with only a moon ball will be out just as fast, Guess is that the moon balling and pushing is adaptive at some points for some kids in some circumstances. If you do not like it, evaluate why. It might be good to learn how to disrail the player serving them up. I am guessing that a kid consistently winning regardless of strokes used will adapt over time to a more mature style when and if the alternative begins to be more functional for the kid.


i think what most people get upset about is the time comsumption you have to deal with ,, my son played quicksilver and wilson and each time he ran into the top seeds they wanted nothing to do with him they went to this tactic and won 31/2 hours later and plenty of bad line calls to top it off ,, for us its how much time it take to finish one of these matches even if you win!!

your thinking your the top seed hit the ball and all you see is "up up and away "

[10isDad]

your thinking your the top seed hit the ball and all you see is "up up and away "

Hit on the rise to deprive the moonballer of time.

Be patient.

Bring the mooner to net - many are not comfortable there.

Use placement and angles, not power.

Get to net and angle off volleys (being ready for the overhead).

From Tennis mag: Dealing with moonballers
One of the toughest opponents at the recreational level is the dreaded moonballer—the player who hits everything back high, fairly deep and usually with moderate to heavy topspin. It’s a winning formula because it’s an easy strategy to execute, as long as you’re fit and patient; and it’s very low risk.

How do you beat such a player? Generally, most moonballers adopt their style of play because they are not confident hitting more offensive shots, so they hit high and deep to gain consistency. You can use this tendency to your advantage. The antidote for beating this player is to be consistent—without moonballing in return—while looking for opportunities to attack. Do this by moving them around and waiting for the right moment to hit an attacking shot that you can follow to the net. Once there, you’ll likely discover that moonballers often lob when forced to pass, and this tendency hurts them if you can force them to be a little off balance with a good approach. At such times, the lob often falls short giving you an easy put-away. In any case, patience with an eye for the attack is the way to bring the moonballer down to earth.

[Babb]

i hate moon ballers
Only because I bet they beat you. Don't hate. If moonballers' tactics are so flawed, why do they take home the trophies?

[Kevo]

Well, I'm not 12 but if they were playing me and moonballed, I'd just moonball it back. 2 or 3 times of the ball bouncing over their head may make them change tactics.

Having said that, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't use any shot you want to win. If their coaches are only teaching them the moonball shot, then their parents should resolve that situation by hiring another coach.

[BradBaughman]

10is dad your right the article is correct !! deiton is acctually really good for the most part of even playing and beating them at their own game ,although he doesnt even practice it !!!

deitons getting really good at taking things out of the air, weve started working a little on his net game and out of the air game ,,and as he grows the moonballer will soon be a thing of the past for him!!

im glad all the top kids trust this type of tennis it eliminates alot of what people thinks is good compitition in the future for us ,keep it up moonballers!!

[Leelord337]

moonballers drive me crazy, they get everything back and hit w/no pace. I like pace as it takes their time away, I hate hitting slow balls.

[Babb]

Any strategy is valid in tennis. Just stop complaining...

[BradBaughman]

Any strategy is valid in tennis. Just stop complaining...

your right but i think its more of and artwork then a strategy but it is legal so your right no reason to complain !!!im really am glad to see a lot of the top boys in the 12s rely on it against my son because sooner or later he will grow and they wont be able to turn to it in order to bail them out!!!

so i allways encorage them kids to keep there game going strong and tell them how impressed i am with there tatics!!

[jmverdugo]

All the kids will grow up and eventually stop using the moonballing, the thing is that the one doing it now are winning. If you teach kid to play to win they will find their way to victory playing whatever makes them win.

[TennisCoachFLA]

I said it before and I will say it one more time, I have seen thousands of juniors in my 30 plus years in the game. Moonballers almost always end up out of the game.

They drop out as they get to their mid teens and the strategy stops working. They have no future as college or pro players. They can not find partners even as recreational adults as people simply choose not to play with them.

Some of you can keep posting that if they win as kids with it great. But that is beyond pointless. They get some little trophies at 12, 13, big deal.

They miss out on any future in the game. If they did have the athletic ability to be great, they never develop it. If they did not but could have still enjoyed tennis as a lifelong fitness thing, they also lose that as no one will play them as adults.

Going back mentally about all the kids I have seen, I would break it down like this. Out of every 100 moonballers, 10% grow out of it and the other 90% leave the game by 18 for good.

Out of the kids who play real tennis, learning all the shots and going for winners? I would say 70% still play tennis after 18, either as adult rec players or college players.

10% vs 70%....that is a huge price to pay for being a moonballer don't you think?

Like anything in life, there is no free ride. Teach a kid to moonball and the overwhelming odds are his trophies at 12 and 13 are a trade off of losing tennis in his life forever a few years later.

[CAM178]

Well, apparently moonballing works. Drak said that he watched the finals of the M30 Clays, and Oren moonballed Andy to death.

I'm not a big fan of it. In fact, when I play someone that does this, I will send a ball into orbit (like 100 feet or so). It will land in their court, but they get the idea. I had enough of that in 12 & Unders.

[jmverdugo]

maybe im not clear about what a moonball is, isnt it a high bouncing topspin shot that goes above the net for more than 8 feet? i mean the kids still have to do the stroke in order to perform this shot, is not like they are doing odd strokes or pushing the ball, eventually with the same type of stroke they will be able to drive the ball. I dont see the DOOM of this kind of shot, honestly.

[racingdad23]

Been dealing with this the last couple of years...but this is how we learned to defeat it. The key is not how to "defend it" but how to take it out of the game.

The topspin lob can only be used effectively from "behind or on the baseline". Bring your opponent in off the baseline. A effective topspin lob cannot be hit 3 feet or more nside the baseline. It has too much arc to bounce deep...rendering it returnable...or it just flies long.

The topspin lob is a forehand shot. Attack the opponents backhand....repeatedly....repeatedly....repeatedly . Not only does this keep your opponent from hitting this shot it will also open easy winners to the forehand side when your opponent adjusts his court position to counter the repeated shots to his backhand.

Learning to defend the tatic by leaning how to play the ball is a effort in futility. Dont play their game. Be smart, be aggressive, take the tatic completely out of the match.

[dork2tennisstud]

I think TennisCoachFLA and I aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this, because I'm going to assume, based on your screenname, that you've been dealing mostly with juniors in Florida who play all year and pay for a lot of lessons. If a moonballer is getting lessons pumped into him and thinks his method will turn him into a worldbeater, I can see how they'd quit the game.

When I moonballed, or my friends moonballed, I was never under the impression that I was turning pro with that method or even becoming one of the best in the country. I'd use it because it was effective against my opponent. I've always viewed tennis like pitching in baseball, it's all about matching up with the hitter (or in tennis, the other player) and making them off balance. Sometimes you need to throw a fastball or hard breaking ball, other times you don't. If you're opponent can't figure out how to beat a moonball, keep doing it.

It shouldn't be the only shot in your arsenal, though. While I was moonballing, I also liked putting away short forehands when I got them, and I kept working on my weaker shots. Now I'm in college and I have a 115-120 mph flat serve and a kick serve and a big forehand and most other types of shots (actually my backhand still isn't very good, but no one's perfect). I don't think that it that unusual of a transition, at least not with the juniors I know.

Moonballers don't usually stay moonballers in my experience. They adopt that style because it's effective, and they change when they develop the strokes to perform a style that's more effective. If they don't develop their game and stay moonballers, I'm okay with that too, as long as they understand that it has limits and aren't fooling themselves.

[jmverdugo]

Moonballers don't usually stay moonballers in my experience. They adopt that style because it's effective, and they change when they develop the strokes to perform a style that's more effective. If they don't develop their game and stay moonballers, I'm okay with that too, as long as they understand that it has limits and aren't fooling themselves.

Im with dork, i have seen this happening at my club with local juniors. However my experience is not that vast as TCFla and it may be different in other places.

[playfairplease]

to dork2tennisu stud. How do you like playing in college? do you get the college experience even tho you play? would you have chosen the same college if you werenot playing? College seekers want to know.

[dork2tennisstud]

to dork2tennisu stud. How do you like playing in college? do you get the college experience even tho you play? would you have chosen the same college if you werenot playing? College seekers want to know.

I actually just play for our college club team (let me know if you want to know what that's like). We only have a varsity girls team at Syracuse, and I wasn't offered any D1 scholarships out of high school, so I just picked the school that was best for my major and that seemed to fit for me. I miss playing tennis everyday, like I did in high school, but I still get out about 3 times a week.

I do know most the girls on the varsity team, though, and I know coach Jensen (great guy) very well.

Playing any college varsity sport takes up a ton of time, so you're experience is a lot different than a non-athlete. You really have to be dedicated. The girls are outside playing at 6:30 (warming up at 6) during the season. Everyone deals with it differently. Some handle it better than others. Most the girls I know love it.

College, in my opinion, is about preparing you for life. Even if you can play varsity somewhere, I'd look for a place that fits your educational needs first, and a place with a good support system (whether that means a good coach or academic help or good teammates or a place that just makes you feel at home), because the best tennis team and best academics in the world don't mean anything if you're unhappy and can't concentrate. Even if you find the perfect place, it's going to be hard, but it'll be worth it. I love it at Syracuse, and I'm a little jealous of the girls that get to play varsity.

Good luck and Happy Holidays.

[EasternRocks]

In my mind, they never succseed

[miniRafa386]

from what i have seen throughout my years as a junior, most little kids, as in ages 8-12, are afraid of losing. so, they hit their balls with as much net clearence as possible, thus in their minds, thinking the ball is going to land in. also, smaller kids dont have the strength that teens/adults have, where we can smack the ball as hard as we can with it being a winner, rather then smaller kids smackin it as hard as they can and only gets their opponent slightly off-balance. basically, its a strength factor.