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rogerfederer26
11-27-2007, 05:19 PM
Tennis Week

The Best Of The Best

11/06/2003

Eight of the world's best players converge in Los Angeles this week to compete in the WTA Tour Championships and strive for supremacy as the season-ending No. 1 player. As the competition to contest the top spot unfolds, I've conducted my own championship to crown the greatest woman player of the Open Era.

As I wrote in my first feature for Tennis Week.com Numbers Reveal The No. 1 Player Of The Open Era, tennis is a tough sport to evaluate. We have a tendency to judge players based solely on observation rather than on careful statistical scrutiny. As we all know, appearances can be deceiving. Some players may look like world beaters on some days yet ultimately find a way to lose a match, while other players may look like they wouldn't take a game off their 99-year-old grandmother still wielding a wood racquet, yet they seem to find a way to win.

Ultimately, champions produce results and results are what should be used in assessing the greatest champions — not speculation, not opinions, not the style of someone's forehand.

I compared the nine greatest women of the Open Era — Lindsay Davenport, Chris Evert, Steffi Graf, Martina Hingis, Martina Navratilova, Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario, Monica Seles, Serena Williams and Venus Williams — using the following statistical criteria:

Career winning percentage
Best winning percentage for a five-year period
Career tournament titles
Tournament titles in a best five-year period
Career percentage of tournaments won
Percentage of tournaments won in a best five year period
Career Grand Slam titles
Career percentage of Slams won
Total Grand Slams won in a best five year period
Percentage of Grand Slams won in a best five-year period

Quite honestly, before I began my research for this story, I truly believed Martina Navratilova and Steffi Graf would resume the rivalry they shared on court in competing for the unofficial title as the game's greatest player with Chris Evert settling in the third spot. However, as I began research on this statistical study, I soon realized the remarkable record Chris Evert had amassed and it quickly became clear the Fort Lauderdale native with the impeccably immaculate strokes was in the running to take the title as the game's greatest player of the Open Era.

Ultimately, it was a very, very close battle between Navratilova, Evert and Graf, but after careful consideration of all the stats (I used Hall of Fame tennis writer Bud Collins' Total Tennis as well as the work of esteemed tennis historian Robert Geist) I am ready to announce one player as the greatest of the Open Era: Martina Navratilova!

The legendary lefthander finished first in five of the 10 categories I established and did not place lower than third in any one category. The greatness of Navratilova is a given, but what was absolutely astonishing was Navratilova's comprehensive domination of women's tennis from 1982 to 1986. In that stunning span of five years, Navratilova produced a 427-14 record for a wondrous winning percentage of .968. Losing only 14 matches is regarded as a great year for most players, but Navratilova's 14 losses in five years is an average of just under three losses per year! In that spectacular five-year span, the serve-and-volleyer won 70 of 84 tournaments she entered and 12 of the 19 Grand Slams she played. No woman in the Open Era was as dominant during any five-year period as Navratilova. Her official record of 167 singles titles may well prove to be one of the toughest tennis records to break. In 1984, Navratilova set the Open Era record for most consecutive wins with 74 straight victories.

The owner of 58 Grand Slam titles overall, Navratilova's numbers are mind-boggling. As Tennis Week senior feature writer Bud Collins writes in Total Tennis: "As a pro since 1973, Navratilova played the most singles tournaments (383) and matches (1,653), and won the most titles and matches (1,440) with a won-loss mark of 1,440-213."

The 16-year rivalry between Navratilova and Evert is one of the most storied in sports history. The pair first met in 1973 in Akron, Ohio with Evert scoring a 7-6, 6-3 victory. Evert won 21 of the pair's first 25 meetings, but Navratilova would rally to win 39 of their final 55 matches to conclude the career rivalry with a 43-37 edge over Evert.

A winner of 154 career singles titles, Evert finished a very close second to Navratilova in my study. Evert claimed the top spot in two of the 10 categories, and like her archrival, she did not place lower than third in any single category. The brilliant baseliner was so consistently great for so many years, her achievements are almost beyond belief when the records are viewed in retrospect. Two stats stand out in Evert's remarkable resume:

Her career record of 1,309-146 is an astounding .8996 winning percentage — the best in the history of professional tennis.

She won more than half of the tournaments she entered and was a runner-up in 72 tournaments, which means she reached the finals in 76 percent of the 303 tournaments she entered, according to Collins' Total Tennis. As great as Navratilova was from 1982 to 1986, Evert's record from 1974 to 1978 is almost as impressive. During that five-year period, Evert registered a 325-21, capturing 61 of the 84 tournaments she entered, including eight of the 13 Grand Slams she played. Entering 13 majors in a five-year span is not much by today's standards, but in Evert's era many of the top American players seldom played the Australian Open. In fact, Evert only played the Australian Open once in the first 10 years of her career, reaching the final in 1974. Had Evert entered more majors during that time she very well could have threatened Margaret Court's record of 24 Grand Slam singles titles.

In retrospect, it's truly amazing that two of the greatest players of all time played basically at the same time. How many majors did each prevent the other from winning? How many more majors would Navratilova or Evert had won without the presence of her primary rival? Then again, both women have said repeatedly that the rivalry pushed them to produce their best tennis. They played 22 times in majors with Navratilova holding a 14-8 edge in those Grand Slam showdowns.

Even in my research, the rivalry between the pair produced a very close result. For example, had Evert beaten Navratilova in the 1978 Wimbledon final (Navratilova won 2-6, 6-4, 7-5), Evert would have been No. 1 in my statistical study. It was that close. On a side note, my research shows Hall of Famers Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall played each other approximately 140 times with Laver holding the edge in one of the greatest men's rivalries in history.

rogerfederer26
11-27-2007, 05:29 PM
Steffi Graf, who will join Navratilova and Evert in the International Tennis Hall of Fame when she's inducted in the summer of 2004, held the No. 1 rank for 377 weeks — the longest streak in the Open Era. Graf produced possibly the greatest single season in Open Era history by sweeping the Grand Slam and an Olympic gold medal in 1988. In that Grand Slam season, Graf compiled a record of 72-3, winning 11 of the 14 tournaments she entered. In terms of winning percentage, Graf's best season came the year after her Golden Slam when she won 86 of 88 matches, captured 14 of 16 tournaments she entered and three of the four majors losing only Roland Garros to Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario. Had Graf beaten Sanchez-Vicario in the French Open final she would have swept successive Grand Slams. The native of Bruhl, Germany was first in two of the 10 categories in this study.

Monica Seles placed a distant fourth in my study. At one point, in the early 1990s it appeared Seles was on pace to produce historic career records. The two-handed titan won seven of the eight majors she played at one point and was clearly the premier player in women's tennis. At that point, Seles appeared poised to challenge for a prominent place as the greatest player of all time. It took a demented man plunging a knife in her back to derail what seemed to be an unstoppable tennis power. Prior to her stabbing, who would have believed the Seles of the early 1990s would have amassed "only" 53 tournament titles, including nine majors? Undoubtedly, these are Hall of Fame credentials, but the numbers pale in comparison to the career path Seles was on before she was stabbed. Sadly, a the sharp steel of a madman's knife robbed Monica of what may have been her peak years and leaves us wondering what she would have accomplished had she played in her prime.

Of the current competitors in the study, Serena Williams made the greatest impact, placing fifth. Obviously, Serena's best years may still be ahead of her giving her a shot to surpass several players in these categories. Still, with 23 tournament titles to her credit and the fact that Serena's schedule is relatively small compared to past Grand Slam greats, it's difficult to imagine her winning 144 tournaments to match Navratilova in total tournament victories.

Swiss stylist Martina Hingis, who became the youngest woman to rise to the No. 1 rank at the age of 16 years, 6 months, 1 day, finished sixth. I've always enjoyed the vast variety of shots in Hingis' game. At her best, it seemed Hingis had the ball on a string and could place it anywhere she wanted. Hingis' best year was 1997 when she claimed three of the four majors and perhaps only a fall from her horse that caused a knee injury that required surgery to repair, prevented her from beating Iva Majoli in the French Open final. Only Graf (377 weeks), Navratilova (331 weeks) and Evert (262 weeks) held the No. 1 ranking longer than Hingis, who was the world's top player for 209 weeks.

Two other active players — Venus Williams and Lindsay Davenport — placed seventh and eighth, respectively, in my study. Though both players are currently recovering from injury, they both have the potential of moving even higher on this list.

Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario finished ninth, which is not too bad considering the caliber of players ahead of her. Sanchez-Vicario, who won four singles, six doubles and four mixed doubles Grand Slam championships, was truly a great competitor who may be underrated in tennis history.

Unfortunately, I could not find accurate records and statistics for many of the great players whose peak years preceded the Open Era such as Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills, Alice Marble, Pauline Betz, Maureen Connolly, Althea Gibson, Maria Bueno, Margaret Court and Billie Jean King. Wills, for example, won 19 of 22 majors she entered and did not surrender a single set for years. Court's 24 Grand Slam singles titles still stands as the record for most majors won by a man or woman in singles play. According to my research, Court won a total of 194 tournaments, well ahead of Navratilova's official record of 167. Court also claimed the Grand Slam in 1970 — two years after the Open Era began in 1968 — and posted a record of 104-6 that spectacular season, winning 21 of 27 tournaments played.

I was tempted to include two of my personal favorites — Hana Mandlikova and Evonne Goolagong — in this study, but opted against including them. Goolagong was eliminated because she played a bit before the Open Era began, which is the cut-off period I used in order to maintain statistical accuracy, and I decided that Sanchez-Vicario, who had a few more tournament wins, was more deserving than Mandlikova. However, you can make a good case Mandlikova deserves a place in this group. Both Mandlikova and Goolagong were two of the most gifted players of the Open Era and both woman played aesthetically beautiful tennis. Had Goolagong been included in this study, she would have placed highly, but clearly would not have beaten out the top three players. A case can also be made for the inclusion of former No. 1 Tracy Austin, however injuries shortened her career and she lacks the longevity of the players in this group.

There's no doubt in my mind every player on this list, in her prime, would be at or near the top of tennis today given the superior racquet technology and training techniques. The second-ranked players in the world today, Justine Henin-Hardenne, is shorter than five-foot-six and weighs less than 130 pounds yet she hits the ball as well as anyone in the world and won two of the four majors this year so the suggestion that the best players from the past would be too small to prosper in today's power age may not be valid. A year ago, a 46-year-old Navratilova was quite competitive playing singles against players who were more than 20 years younger! How would a Martina Navratilova 20 years younger compete against today's players? In my view, a 26-year-old Navratilova would be the best player in the world today. "

Comparing the peak five-year periods of Navratilova, Evert and Graf reveals the true greatness of each champion as each woman's record makes a legitimate claim for the prestigious place as the greatest player of the Open Era. However, the statistics don't lie: when you look at Navratilova's career record of 167 titles, 18 Grand Slam singles titles and an incredible domination of women's tennis over a five-year period, you have to conclude Martina Navratilova is the greatest women player of the Open Era.

NadalandFedererfan
11-27-2007, 05:49 PM
Henin not even in the top 10, while Hingis, Davenport, Sanchez Vicario all make it ahead of her? Then having the nerve to state Henin is the worlds "second ranked" player today, ROTFL!!! Already garbage.

rogerfederer26
11-27-2007, 05:55 PM
Henin not even in the top 10, while Hingis, Davenport, Sanchez Vicario all make it ahead of her? Then having the nerve to state Henin is the worlds "second ranked" player today, ROTFL!!! Already garbage.

This article was written in November 2003.

NadalandFedererfan
11-27-2007, 05:59 PM
This article was written in November 2003.

Ooops, sorry. In that case pretty good list.

drakulie
11-27-2007, 06:52 PM
Graf is the GOAT.

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
11-27-2007, 07:01 PM
Graf is the GOAT.

With an asterisk next to her name... :evil:

NadalandFedererfan
11-27-2007, 07:05 PM
With an asterisk next to her name... :evil:

It is not her fault what happened to Monica. She wasnt the one who stabbed her, some sick p-verted fan was. She can only play who was on the other side of the net and win, and that is what she did.

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
11-27-2007, 07:06 PM
It is not her fault what happened to Monica. She wasnt the one who stabbed her, some sick *******ed fan was. She can only play who was on the other side of the net and win, and that is what she did.

All, I said was "with an asterisk next to her name...".

And the fact remains, it happened and there nothing we can do about it...

drakulie
11-27-2007, 07:07 PM
It is not her fault what happened to Monica. She wasnt the one who stabbed her, some sick p-verted fan was. She can only play who was on the other side of the net and win, and that is what she did.

damn straight. Well said!

FedSampras
11-27-2007, 07:21 PM
With an asterisk next to her name... :evil:

Very True. Graff has astericks all over her record...........

FedSampras
11-27-2007, 07:26 PM
It is not her fault what happened to Monica.

bottom line: Graff profited immensely from the Seles Stabbing. It was done in her name. Gunter Parche got his wish fulfilled.

The stabbing altered women's tennis history............

NadalandFedererfan
11-27-2007, 07:33 PM
I dont dispute what happened to Monica was terrible and very unfortunate for her, womens tennis, and tennis fans. However what else can you do except go on. Should they have canceled womens tennis for another 5 years or something. They went on and continued which is all they could do. Graf went on to win alot, well all she could do is what she did before Monica got stabbed which was try her best to win events like the champion she is. She cant control such a tough opponent had that happen to her, and that she no longer had the chance to try and prove herself vs her biggest rival. That probably frusterated her too, but all she could do was keep playing and trying to win.

Monica had her own option to come back sooner or to come back as a stronger player then she did to be honest. She didnt have to wait almost 3 years or come back overweight so she was unable to fulfill her potential. She still could have done so, she was young enough, and some of that is her own fault. Why keep playing so many years after her comeback at 21 very overweight and become a pity story, what happened to her was very unfortunate to her, but she was still young enough to get back in great shape and fight hard for more titles. She chose to stay overweight and only win 1 more slam title.

No, I am not a Graf fan or Seles fan, I am a much bigger Henin and Navratilova fan then either of those. I just dont understand how you can blame Graf for any of this, and she did all she could have done which was to continue on with her own career.

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
11-27-2007, 07:41 PM
Monica had her own option to come back sooner or to come back as a stronger player then she did to be honest. She didnt have to wait almost 3 years or come back overweight so she was unable to fulfill her potential. She still could have done so, she was young enough, and some of that is her own fault. Why keep playing so many years after her comeback at 21 very overweight and become a pity story, what happened to her was very unfortunate to her, but she was still young enough to get back in great shape and fight hard for more titles. She chose to stay overweight and only win 1 more slam title.

Try getting stabbed, and coming back to the one place where you felt safe, and happy. Do you even know first han psychological damage getting attacked like that would do to someone? Everyone doesn't deal with issues the same way. Yes, Monica came back "overweight", but we don't know what kind of emotional baggage she carried throughout that whole time. The point of the matter is, there is no denying that Steffi benefited a great deal from that “incident”.

boredone3456
11-27-2007, 07:43 PM
Court...at least in my Opinion should have been included in this study. she had a box set of slams (every possible slam title) accomplished both during and before the start of the official open era. I am not saying she would be number one...But i think her stats would put her ahead of Vicario, Davenport and Serena at least

rogerfederer26
11-27-2007, 07:56 PM
Monica had her own option to come back sooner or to come back as a stronger player then she did to be honest. She didnt have to wait almost 3 years or come back overweight so she was unable to fulfill her potential. She still could have done so, she was young enough, and some of that is her own fault. Why keep playing so many years after her comeback at 21 very overweight and become a pity story, what happened to her was very unfortunate to her, but she was still young enough to get back in great shape and fight hard for more titles. She chose to stay overweight and only win 1 more slam title.



The wound ended up not being as serious as it could have been but the doctors stated that if it had been another inch off it would have killed her. Seles had to deal with the fact of being nearly murdered in full view of an entire audience with some German maniac fan of Steffi Graf stabbing her from behind her back. People go through all kinds of post traumatic pain after an attempted murder and being knifed.

The horrible behavior various people--of Graf who tried to benefit from the stabbing by continuing on in the very same tournament after Seles was stabbed; of the WTA and the selfish refusal of the other players to maintain her ranking (so that they could move ahead a few places); of the German courts who were only sympathetic to poor, knife-wielding, would-be assassin-Parche and never gave him any punishment, were even greater wounds to Monica and played a huge part in her unwillingness to return to tennis where she could never again feel safe.

Gunther Parche just barely missed killing her but his sharp knife achieved its purpose of ruining her career and leaving the way open for his #2 fave to benefit from his act and get back to the #1 position. Graf never spoke out once against Parche or his act and she's never seemed to regret benefiting from his sick handiwork.

AndrewD
11-28-2007, 03:11 AM
Court...at least in my Opinion should have been included in this study. she had a box set of slams (every possible slam title) accomplished both during and before the start of the official open era. I am not saying she would be number one...But i think her stats would put her ahead of Vicario, Davenport and Serena at least

Pretty bizarre she wasn't included. Between 1968 (start of Open tennis) and her retirement in 1975 (with 2 years off in-between) she won 11 singles majors. That is, she won 11 of the 22 she entered - a 50% success rate. It also included one Grand Slam and two other years of winning 3 majors. Of the three other players to have won 11 majors or more in the Open era, Chrissie never had one year in her entire career where she won 3 majors, Martina had only two in her entire career and Steffi had 5 in her career (same as Court). Court's overall winning percentage at majors was 51%, Graf's was 39%, Evert's was 32% and Navratilova's was 28% (not counting the two majors she played in 2004).

ohlori
11-28-2007, 05:00 AM
bottom line: Graff profited immensely from the Seles Stabbing. It was done in her name. Gunter Parche got his wish fulfilled.

The stabbing altered women's tennis history............

It definitely altered women's tennis history. Selez would have continued to win nearly all the slams until her retirement at the age of 29.
Heck, even Graf won a slam when she was 30 years old!

Davenport, Hingis, Capriati (no succesful comeback) Williams's (no Serena Slam) all benifited immensely :?

grafrules
11-28-2007, 05:44 AM
It definitely altered women's tennis history. Selez would have continued to win nearly all the slams until her retirement at the age of 29.
Heck, even Graf won a slam when she was 30 years old!

Davenport, Hingis, Capriati (no succesful comeback) Williams's (no Serena Slam) all benifited immensely :?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: What a joke. I could understand one arguing Graf benefitted but then moving forward that many years, please.

Wuornos
11-28-2007, 09:54 AM
Tennis Week

The Best Of The Best

11/06/2003



In retrospect, it's truly amazing that two of the greatest players of all time played basically at the same time. How many majors did each prevent the other from winning? How many more majors would Navratilova or Evert had won without the presence of her primary rival? Then again, both women have said repeatedly that the rivalry pushed them to produce their best tennis. They played 22 times in majors with Navratilova holding a 14-8 edge in those Grand Slam showdowns.



Absolutely. Both of these points are exactly what the DOT ratings are attempting to calculate.

By adjusting for the domination of competitors you are adjusting for the quality of opposition faced. This inflates the ratings and counteracts the first point of how many majors would these two have won if the other had not been playing.

This issue of araised game is also interesting. The Dot ratings have been carefully calibrated to ensure that that ratings are consistent in the face of increased competition. Despite this the increase in Evert's game as the challenge from Navratilova materialises is marked.

I wouldn't go as far as the writer in rating Evert as number 2 behind Navratilova even when the article was written but she was up there.

If I backdate the DOT ratings to the time of the article, the Open Era Top 10 Peak Ratings would have been as follows.

1. Martina Navratilova 2805 Year Ending 1984 US Open
2. Steffi Graf 2798 Year Ending 1989 Australian Open
2. Margaret Smith Court 2798 Year Ending 1971 Australian Open
4. Serena Williams 2789 Year Ending 2003 Australian Open
5. Monica Seles 2778 Year Ending 1993 Australian Open
6. Chris Evert 2759 Year Ending 1983 French Open
7. Martina Hingis 2740 Year Ending 1998 Australian Open
8. Billie Jean King 2723 Year Ending 1972 US Open
9. Hana Mandlíková 2700 Year Ending 1981 Wimbledon
10. Venus Williams 2698 Year Ending 2002 French Open

I have just finishined revising some of the methodological procedures within the DOT ratings which should have increased accuracy markedly. As a result it is now possible to provide reasonably accurate data from a sample of a single year without compromising the results. I have therefore revised the systems to provide all data on this basis. This will of course make these results inconsistent with previous results posted but with an improved level of accuracy for all output.

First I would support those who have posted as to why no Margaret Court. As you can see from the above, her peak level of play can now be seen to be identical to Steffi's, so I really think she should have been included.

Secondly, the constant debate about the unfortunate incident with Seles being stabbed and how much Steffi benefitted. As you can see above Steffi peaked in the year ending with Australian Open of 1988, so Monica never faced a peak Graf. Yes Graf was still outstanding but she was no longer at her absolute best. Monica however peaked in the year ending with the Australian Open in 1993. She may have pushed this peak slightly higher, but the data analysed by DOT does not count Majors won and so the standing she has is probably accurate for peak play in the scheme of this analysis and is more likely not to have improved further rather than the opposite.

Finally I would like to say that the only change to this list since the article was written is that Justine Henin has now climbed into the top 10, at a peak performance of 2728 for her resulst in the year ending with the Australian Open of 2004. Like Monica might have, she has won many majors since then but her peak play has not improved. However her current DOT Ratings is standing at 2660 so watch this space for next year.

Finally for those who may have an interest in my work, I will be posting tomorrow fully revised current and Peak Open Era DOT Ratings using the improved and more accurate methodology. As usual I would encourage feedback as this helps with my work.

Regards

Tim

CEvertFan
11-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Absolutely. Both of these points are exactly what the DOT ratings are attempting to calculate.

By adjusting for the domination of competitors you are adjusting for the quality of opposition faced. This inflates the ratings and counteracts the first point of how many majors would these two have won if the other had not been playing.

This issue of araised game is also interesting. The Dot ratings have been carefully calibrated to ensure that that ratings are consistent in the face of increased competition. Despite this the increase in Evert's game as the challenge from Navratilova materialises is marked.

I wouldn't go as far as the writer in rating Evert as number 2 behind Navratilova even when the article was written but she was up there.

If I backdate the DOT ratings to the time of the article, the Open Era Top 10 Peak Ratings would have been as follows.

1. Martina Navratilova 2805 Year Ending 1984 US Open
2. Steffi Graf 2798 Year Ending 1989 Australian Open
2. Margaret Smith Court 2798 Year Ending 1971 Australian Open
4. Serena Williams 2789 Year Ending 2003 Australian Open
5. Monica Seles 2778 Year Ending 1993 Australian Open
6. Chris Evert 2759 Year Ending 1983 French Open
7. Martina Hingis 2740 Year Ending 1998 Australian Open
8. Billie Jean King 2723 Year Ending 1972 US Open
9. Hana Mandlíková 2700 Year Ending 1981 Wimbledon
10. Venus Williams 2698 Year Ending 2002 French Open

I have just finishined revising some of the methodological procedures within the DOT ratings which should have increased accuracy markedly. As a result it is now possible to provide reasonably accurate data from a sample of a single year without compromising the results. I have therefore revised the systems to provide all data on this basis. This will of course make these results inconsistent with previous results posted but with an improved level of accuracy for all output.

First I would support those who have posted as to why no Margaret Court. As you can see from the above, her peak level of play can now be seen to be identical to Steffi's, so I really think she should have been included.

Secondly, the constant debate about the unfortunate incident with Seles being stabbed and how much Steffi benefitted. As you can see above Steffi peaked in the year ending with Australian Open of 1988, so Monica never faced a peak Graf. Yes Graf was still outstanding but she was no longer at her absolute best. Monica however peaked in the year ending with the Australian Open in 1993. She may have pushed this peak slightly higher, but the data analysed by DOT does not count Majors won and so the standing she has is probably accurate for peak play in the scheme of this analysis and is more likely not to have improved further rather than the opposite.

Finally I would like to say that the only change to this list since the article was written is that Justine Henin has now climbed into the top 10, at a peak performance of 2728 for her resulst in the year ending with the Australian Open of 2004. Like Monica might have, she has won many majors since then but her peak play has not improved. However her current DOT Ratings is standing at 2660 so watch this space for next year.

Finally for those who may have an interest in my work, I will be posting tomorrow fully revised current and Peak Open Era DOT Ratings using the improved and more accurate methodology. As usual I would encourage feedback as this helps with my work.

Regards

Tim

I disagree.

Graf was easily as great in 1995/1996 as she was in 1988 even though she didn't win the Calendar Grand Slam in '95/'96 like she did in 1988. I actually think she was an even better player than her earlier self because in 1988 she was still maturing as a player whereas in the mid '90s she was a fully mature, experienced champion. Her lack of having to face Seles during this time did make it that much more easy for her to win slams, as her main competitor during this time became Sanchez-Vicario who did her best but wasn't able to make much of a dent in Graf's domination but I still think that even if you factor in the absence of Seles, Steffi was still a better player overall during that period than she was in 1988.

I've read a lot of your posts and to be honest, the data you present is interesting overall, but seems to tend to present a flawed big picture in certain instances. Just my opinion of course, and I know you will continue to present your data, which you should.

ATPballkid
11-28-2007, 04:03 PM
As you can see above Steffi peaked in the year ending with Australian Open of 1988, so Monica never faced a peak Graf.
Regards

Tim

Here we have Graf with her PEAK years being 1988 and 1989 .. then, Seles comes in at the age of 16 in 1990 and DOMINATED women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early to middle part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed her in the back with a knife.

So ... no, Seles did not dominate women's tennis during the 2 years Steffi was in her short prime (1988-1989) when Seles was only 14 and 15 years of age. HOWEVER, beginning when Seles was only 16 years of age in November 1990 -- and running through the early to mid part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife -- the teenage Seles brought an end to the PEAK years for Graf while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and January 1993.

Seems the PEAK years for Steffi Graf were the ones when Monica Seles was not playing ... when Evert and Navratilova were over 30 years of age ... and AFTER Seles was STABBED.

Wuornos
11-29-2007, 12:32 AM
I disagree.

Graf was easily as great in 1995/1996 as she was in 1988 even though she didn't win the Calendar Grand Slam in '95/'96 like she did in 1988. I actually think she was an even better player than her earlier self because in 1988 she was still maturing as a player whereas in the mid '90s she was a fully mature, experienced champion. Her lack of having to face Seles during this time did make it that much more easy for her to win slams, as her main competitor during this time became Sanchez-Vicario who did her best but wasn't able to make much of a dent in Graf's domination but I still think that even if you factor in the absence of Seles, Steffi was still a better player overall during that period than she was in 1988.

I've read a lot of your posts and to be honest, the data you present is interesting overall, but seems to tend to present a flawed big picture in certain instances. Just my opinion of course, and I know you will continue to present your data, which you should.

Thanks CEVERTFAN

I always value your posts and the excellent points you make. The DOT ratings should compensate for the presence of Seles during the later Graf years. The system has been carefully calibrated to make sure that the arrival of another dominant player does not have any effect upon a players rating. Sometime players ratings do decrease but it is equally likely that they will increase. A typical example of this can be seen within the DOT Ratings of Chris Evert. Her DOT Rating actually improved with the arrival of Natrilova, so we can see, with these two examples, that DOT is not simply a measure of Domination in isolation.I therefore feel your point about being able to win slams more easily while being quite true should have already been compensated for by DOT.

I do hear your point about the data I present showing a flawed big picture. I perhaps wouldn't have used the word 'flawed', as I feel this is to strong, however, I can accept your point on two counts and I appreciate your highlighting this aspect.

1. The DOT Rating are still a work in progress and are constantly being refined and fine tuned. In this respect as each amendment is made to improve methodology the ratings will be amended to reflect the improvements and therefore the earlier ratings with the poorer methodology must by definition be considered 'flawed', although I would prefer 'slightly inaccurate'.

2. The DOT ratings in effect calculate values for individual aspects of performance and present a single figure which combines these various areas. i.e. Domination x Opposition x Tournament Status. I feel that this actually quantifies what is forming DOT 'opinion', for want of a better word and to that extent is bound to differ markedly from other opinions that place emphasis on different aspects of performance. To that extent DOT ratings will always be 'flawed' compared with others opinions, but this isn't so much a an error in calculation as a diifference in opinion as to the input variables.

On point 2 above I have huge respect for anyone who says I value 'Total Achievement' because of ... or I prefer 'Versatility on different surfaces' as the primary indicator of performance because ... or even the 'Grand Slam' is the best indicator because I value Domination because .... However what really irritates me and I'm not aiming this at you CEVERTFAN, but more generally at those people who simply say things like Sampras was best for no reason at all. Even worse are those people who define one player as great then another as great using different criteria without stopping to think the adoption of the second criteria devalues the first selection. E.g. Laver was great because he totally dominated opposition in winning his Grand Slam and Agassi was great because he won a career slam on lots of different surfaces (over a long period of time). To me the second statement devalues Laver's achievement because it was on less surfaces and it inherently dismisses domination as a measure of performance. I believe they adopt criteria to justify their opinion rather than selecting criteria they believe is important and letting that select the players. In short I think many people put the cart before the horse in these matters.

Finally I am going to finish by stating the obvious. I think the DOT Ratings are simply an opinion. Albeit a Computer and Statistically based opinion. No better and no worse than anyone elses opinion. The only reason they differ is that they state exactly why the opinion is held and quantify both the criteria that informs that opinion as well as the overall opinion (i.e the Rating). In effect the DOT Ratings are an openly justified opinion. Nothing more and nothing less.

Thanks CEVERT FAN. I look forward to reading your posts not despite our differences in opinion but because of them.

Take care

Tim

Wuornos
11-29-2007, 01:18 AM
Here we have Graf with her PEAK years being 1988 and 1989 .. then, Seles comes in at the age of 16 in 1990 and DOMINATED women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early to middle part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed her in the back with a knife.

So ... no, Seles did not dominate women's tennis during the 2 years Steffi was in her short prime (1988-1989) when Seles was only 14 and 15 years of age. HOWEVER, beginning when Seles was only 16 years of age in November 1990 -- and running through the early to mid part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife -- the teenage Seles brought an end to the PEAK years for Graf while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and January 1993.

Seems the PEAK years for Steffi Graf were the ones when Monica Seles was not playing ... when Evert and Navratilova were over 30 years of age ... and AFTER Seles was STABBED.


I'm not sure I fully understand this post and I would like to as I feel you have an important point to make.

I will take each part in turn and try to explain my confusion.

So ... no, Seles did not dominate women's tennis during the 2 years Steffi was in her short prime (1988-1989) when Seles was only 14 and 15 years of age.
Well yes, Seles wasn't active during Steffi's peak period of one calendar year. The one calendar year being the time frame used by the DOT Ratings as that necassary to provide an accurate evaluation of performance. I'm not sure I would have used the words 'prime' to describe her peak year.

HOWEVER, beginning when Seles was only 16 years of age in November 1990 -- and running through the early to mid part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife -- the teenage Seles brought an end to the PEAK years for Graf while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and January 1993.
Err. yes, sort of. Seles did dominate that period and while it can't possibly be said for sure that Seles alone stopped Graf's domination as there may have been external factors at work, I am sure you are right, the chances are that at the very least Monica was the most significant factor in bringing this about. However, perhaps you could be a bit more specific regarding the 10 of the 12 biggest event in women's tennis. I'm not sure which ones you are referring to. She won 8 majors during this period excluding Wimbledon, but perhaps your simply counting the number of different events won with multiple wins being counted as a single event. She did of course win the French Open in 1990 before this period too. Like Graf the Peak DOT Rating of Seles is based on her perfomance in a single year driven by her Dominance x Opposition x Tournament Status. In Monica's case this year was the year ending in the Australian Open of 1993 when her performance was calculated as 2778. Please note I am not saying this single year was her 'prime'. Could perhaps define wht you mean by 'prime'. Are you saying that a player hits their 'prime' and that is a constant standard of play for 5 years or whatever? Not being funny it's just that by being specific discussion can be more productive.

Seems the PEAK years for Steffi Graf were the ones when Monica Seles was not playing ... when Evert and Navratilova were over 30 years of age ... and AFTER Seles was STABBED.
Err. No. The peak single year for Steffi. Was as stated . i.e. the year ending after the Australian Open of 1989. This was of course before Seles was stabbed. At that point she had proven her greatness within the DOT Rating and should her career have been cut short as Monica's was she would still have been rated as highly as she is now within the DOT Ratings. I think this is a good thing within the DOT Ratings as it is able to provide a pretty good list irrespective of career lengths etc and benefits Monica. Graf never again achieved the rating she managed for that single year and therefore I would probably disagree with your point that her best years were after Seles was stabbed. Below I list the decline in Steffi's rating following her peak year and before the period you quoted as Monica's dominant period to show Graf's decline within the DOT Ratings. Remember each rating is based on a 12 month rolling horizon.

Australia 1989 2798
French 1989 2775
Wimbledon 1989 2769
US 1989 2766
Australia 1990 2758
French 1990 2758
Wimbledon 1990 2715
US 1990 2673

As you can see. I'm not really trying to prove something with these statistics. My post was made in good faith and was simply reporting what the statistics show, that the decline in Graf started before the arrival of Monica. From my own personal point of view I preferred Monica as a player, but my views don't come into the DOT Ratings. They are simply a computer and statistical based evaluation system.

Regards

Tim

FedSampras
11-29-2007, 04:54 PM
As you can see above Steffi peaked in the year ending with Australian Open of 1988, so Monica never faced a peak Graf. Yes Graf was still outstanding but she was no longer at her absolute best.

Fräulein Forehand, undone by Seles's ability to hit winners fore and aft at the German Open, was espied at Roland Garros using a two-fisted backhand, presumably to keep up in the arms race. In the head war between the two young women, Seles may have won the final then and there.

- Sports Illustrated, May 1990

FedSampras
11-29-2007, 05:01 PM
The peak single year for Steffi. Was as stated . i.e. the year ending after the Australian Open of 1989.

Condi:D

Steffi Graff's (in her early 20s) *form* was excellent and she was at her PEAK , but her results weren't. That's what happens when someone like Monica Seles becomes better than you, and you lose confidence and other top players smell blood in the water......

FedSampras
11-29-2007, 05:26 PM
Graf never again achieved the rating French 1990 2758


Graff had won 11 straight events, and steamrollered through the 1990 GO draw like she had steamrollered through all the previous 11 draws - until she ran into Seles........

Seles beat Graff at the 90 GO and 90 FO when Graff was at the height of her powers. It was a stunning reversal for Graff- must have devastated her. Other players were heartened, and Graff tumbled, relatively speaking.

Are you paid to act r*tarded...?:)

FedSampras
11-29-2007, 05:58 PM
Like Graf the Peak DOT Rating of Seles is based on her perfomance in a single year driven by her Dominance x Opposition x Tournament Status.

A young and healthy "GRAFF (in her early 20s) "NON PEAK" SLUMP period" that lasted 3 whole years, and just happened to END when the dominant #1 player (Seles) left the tour? and a "period" that she never suffered before or after that?

Beggars belief.:)

drakulie
11-29-2007, 06:11 PM
Seles beat Graff at the 90 GO and 90 FO when Graff was at the height of her powers.

Graf beat the living tar out of Seles, when Seles was #1, in the Wimbledon finals.

Seles= Zero Wimbledon Titles.

FedSampras
11-29-2007, 06:17 PM
Graf beat the living tar out of Seles, when Seles was #1, in the Wimbledon finals.

Seles= Zero Wimbledon Titles.

yeah, monica dominated the non-W slams between 90-93, beating graff 3-1 in slam finals during that time, 3-0 in the non-W slams. seles (the two- or three- time defending champ at the AO, FO, and USO) leaves the tour and graf suddenly wins the FO (hadn't won in 5 years), the AO (hadn't won in 4 years) and the USO (hadn't won in 4 years)..?

it's pretty obvious that the KNIFE did what graff had been unable to do - knock off seles and return graff to the top.

Wuornos
11-30-2007, 03:11 PM
A young and healthy "GRAFF (in her early 20s) "NON PEAK" SLUMP period" that lasted 3 whole years, and just happened to END when the dominant #1 player (Seles) left the tour? and a "period" that she never suffered before or after that?

Beggars belief.:)

I never said that Graf's standard improved again. I don't believe it ever did.

The reason Graf started winning Majors again was because Seles was stabbed. It wasn't necessary for her to achieve her previously high levels of play as her main competitor was taken out of the game. To be honest I thought we were agreeing on that.

See my post #24 where I was highlighting the start of the Graf slump after the Australian Open of 1989.

I think you may have misunderstood me.

Yes Graf declining and suddenly improving again to exactly coincide with Seles dominance would begger belief! :)

Regards

Tim

Wuornos
11-30-2007, 03:21 PM
Graff had won 11 straight events, and steamrollered through the 1990 GO draw like she had steamrollered through all the previous 11 draws - until she ran into Seles........

Seles beat Graff at the 90 GO and 90 FO when Graff was at the height of her powers. It was a stunning reversal for Graff- must have devastated her. Other players were heartened, and Graff tumbled, relatively speaking.

Are you paid to act r*tarded...?:)

Yes, Graf's decline began at the start of 1989, but she was still well ahead of the field. Just not playing quite as sharply as she was previously. She was dropping a few matches that she wouldn't have before.

Of course this didn't matter given the quality of the rest of the Women's game at that time, until, as you quite rightly say, another great came along in the form of Seles. Then Graf needed to be back to what she was in 1988, but she wasn't and she couldn't. Had she managed that we may have seen a period similar to the Navratilova / Evert rivalry. There certainly wouldn't have been much between them. As it happened though Graf couldn't achieve those heights again and never did and Seles dominated until the stabbing.

With Seles off the scene the gap that Graf enjoyed on her rivals widened markedly resulting in a return to the Graf domination, but not a return to the standard of tennis played by the 1988 Graf.

Sorry if you think I'm r*tarded. I certainly had no intention of upsetting you to the point where you feel the need to insult me. I was just stating my opinion on the subject.

Take care and keep the posts coming.

Regards

Tim

PS You do know her name is Steffi Graf don't you?

PPS You do know that in 1990 Graf dropped her Wimbledon title to an ageing Martina Navratilova and her US Open title to Gabriela Sabatini, the only major she ever won, don't you? Sorry I just can't quite believe that you think Graf was at the peak of her powers in 1990 going into the Seles period of domination.

PPPS You're not joking just to wind me up are you. Your views are pretty unbelievable.

Take care again

Regards

Tim

drakulie
11-30-2007, 03:36 PM
it's pretty obvious that the KNIFE did what graff had been unable to do - knock off seles and return graff to the top.

Before the knife, and while Seles was # 1>>> Graf destroyed her at Wimbledon. End of story.Seles had her chance to win the most prized trophy in sports, and was dominated by the GOAT.

ATPballkid
11-30-2007, 05:34 PM
Before the knife, and while Seles was # 1>>> Graf destroyed her at Wimbledon. End of story.Seles had her chance to win the most prized trophy in sports, and was dominated by the GOAT.

Champions of the 5 biggest events in tennis:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994

Australian GRAF SELES SELES SELES GRAF

------------------------------------ STABBING -----

French SELES SELES SELES GRAF

Wimby MN1956 GRAF GRAF GRAF

U.S. Open Sabatini SELES SELES GRAF

WTA SELES SELES SELES GRAF

Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.

Who was the beneficiary? The girl Parche stabbed Seles for -- Steffi Graf.

ATPballkid
11-30-2007, 06:01 PM
Err. No. The peak single year for Steffi. Was as stated . i.e. the year ending after the Australian Open of 1989.

Why was Graf past her prime in her early 20s after winning so big just 2 or 3 years earlier? ..... and, then, why was she able to win those events in 1993, 1994 and 1995 that she was unable to win during those years before the stabbing of Monica Seles when Monica Seles was winning these events as a teenager?

tenis
11-30-2007, 07:44 PM
Here you go:
# 1 - Navratilova
# 2 - Graf
# 3 - Seles

rogerfederer26
11-30-2007, 09:40 PM
Champions of the 5 biggest events in tennis:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994

Australian GRAF SELES SELES SELES GRAF

------------------------------------ STABBING -----

French SELES SELES SELES GRAF

Wimby MN1956 GRAF GRAF GRAF

U.S. Open Sabatini SELES SELES GRAF

WTA SELES SELES SELES GRAF

Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.



I agree 1000000%. In fact, I have posted messages in the past pointing out this VERY IMPORTANT FACT. Monica, at the time of the stabbing, was playing super good. In fact, she was playing better than Graf, and getting better. The German punk Graf fan that stabbed Monica, even STATED that his reason for STABBING her, was to reinstate Graf as the world's # 1 woman tennis player.

This point must always be stated. However, when this point is stated, you can expect opposition from a fanatical and delusional Steffi Graf fan. Be that as it may, the truth is the light, and what you have stated in the above message is nothing but the pure truth..

rogerfederer26
11-30-2007, 09:49 PM
Here you go:
# 1 - Navratilova
# 2 - Graf
# 3 - Seles

What about Chris Evert?

FedForGOAT
11-30-2007, 10:15 PM
Why is it that no one remembers that when Seles domminated, Graf was still not fully recovered from the scandal about her father and her post-scandal injuries? Graf was definitely not playing her best against Monica. Seles never faced prime Graf.

rogerfederer26
11-30-2007, 10:19 PM
yeah, monica dominated the non-W slams between 90-93, beating graff 3-1 in slam finals during that time, 3-0 in the non-W slams. seles (the two- or three- time defending champ at the AO, FO, and USO) leaves the tour and graf suddenly wins the FO (hadn't won in 5 years), the AO (hadn't won in 4 years) and the USO (hadn't won in 4 years)..?

it's pretty obvious that the KNIFE did what graff had been unable to do - knock off seles and return graff to the top.

Seles was coming on fast, and everybody could plainly see she was, if not already, going to be the best woman tennis player at that time..

FedSampras
11-30-2007, 10:41 PM
Why is it that no one remembers that when Seles domminated, Graf was still not fully recovered from the scandal about her father and her post-scandal injuries? .

are we supposed to believe that graff barely clinging on to wimbledon while TEEN seles was winning all the other slams was merely due to a graff slump. what happened to her motivation there? oh i forgot of course "the slump" is covered by other excuses.

and of course there seemed to be no problems with motivation from 30th April 1993 onwards. it was postively indecent the way *SLUMPING NON PRIME* graff immediately started showing up in slam finals again once the prospect of a drubbing off seles disappeared.:lol::lol::lol:

FedSampras
11-30-2007, 10:49 PM
Why was Graf past her prime in her early 20s after winning so big just 2 or 3 years earlier? ..... and, then, why was she able to win those events in 1993, 1994 and 1995 that she was unable to win during those years before the stabbing of Monica Seles when Monica Seles was winning these events as a teenager?

without gunther's help hard to see *PRIME* graff winning ao/fo/uso from 93 to at least 97 and maybe beyond. even wimbledon would have been a struggle -:)

FedForGOAT
11-30-2007, 10:52 PM
are we supposed to believe that graff barely clinging on to wimbledon while TEEN seles was winning all the other slams was merely due to a graff slump. what happened to her motivation there? oh i forgot of course "the slump" is covered by other excuses.

and of course there seemed to be no problems with motivation from 30th April 1993 onwards. it was postively indecent the way *SLUMPING NON PRIME* graff immediately started showing up in slam finals again once the prospect of a drubbing off seles disappeared.:lol::lol::lol:

I'm not saying the slump was all the reason Graf was losing. Surely Seles had a major role in that. I'm just surprised that no one noted that fact. And I think that the fact you've just been involved in a scandal and injuries doesn't help your confidence when a powerful new rival appears.

Wuornos
12-01-2007, 07:03 AM
Why was Graf past her prime in her early 20s after winning so big just 2 or 3 years earlier? ..... and, then, why was she able to win those events in 1993, 1994 and 1995 that she was unable to win during those years before the stabbing of Monica Seles when Monica Seles was winning these events as a teenager?

I'm not really saying she was past her prime as I think we would need to define that first. What I am saying is that Graf's performance declined. Even after the sad demise of Seles, her results still weren't quite what they were during her Golden Slam year.

I'm not really in a position to be able to say why, I'm just commenting on the statistical outputs of the DOT Ratings which indicate while still being a great player she was never quite as formidable again as she was in that peak year.

I think others have commented as to reasons why this might be in her personal life, but I just don't know why.

I think the second part of your question about why she started winning again I answered in posts #31 and #32.

Take care

Regards

Tim

Wuornos
12-01-2007, 07:14 AM
Here you go:
# 1 - Navratilova
# 2 - Graf
# 3 - Seles

I would say

1 Margaret Smith Court 2880
2 Steffi Graf 2880
3 Martina Navratilova 2878
4 Monica Seles 2837
5 Chris Evert 2823

Based on Open Era results only. Final Methodology DOT Ratings (FMDOT).

Methodology of these data can be found at http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=165420.

Regards

Tim

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 08:25 AM
Surely Seles had a major role in that.

Seles had won 9 of the previous 11 major events in women's tennis and was clearly the #1 ranked women's tennis player when she was stabbed in the back with a knife.

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 08:28 AM
I'm not really saying she was past her prime as I think we would need to define that first. What I am saying is that Graf's performance declined.

Seles as a teenager was #1 for 1991, 1992 and for the part of 1993 before she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a German man who was a jealous fan of Steffi Graf.

During the 30 months before the stabbing of Seles in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan, Seles won 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments played in women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early part of 1993 -- of the 2 events out of those 11 that Seles did not win, she did not enter one of those events and was runnerup in the other.

There is absolutely no doubt that the #1 player of the first half of the 1990s was Monica Seles ... she was the best player in terms of her singles titles won and she was #1 in terms of her ranking during that time. She accomplished these things as a teenager when Steffi Graf, the former #1 at that time, was in her 20s for the most part.

Wuornos
12-01-2007, 09:41 AM
Seles as a teenager was #1 for 1991, 1992 and for the part of 1993 before she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a German man who was a jealous fan of Steffi Graf.

During the 30 months before the stabbing of Seles in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan, Seles won 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments played in women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early part of 1993 -- of the 2 events out of those 11 that Seles did not win, she did not enter one of those events and was runnerup in the other.

There is absolutely no doubt that the #1 player of the first half of the 1990s was Monica Seles ... she was the best player in terms of her singles titles won and she was #1 in terms of her ranking during that time. She accomplished these things as a teenager when Steffi Graf, the former #1 at that time, was in her 20s for the most part.


Yes I agree with everything you say. Nothing there contradicts anything I have said and to be honest I'm getting a bit bored with this now.

Regards

Tim

PS I'm gald you reminded me the knife was sharp!

PPS Age and development don't necessarily go hand in hand.

PPPS You're right in what she accomplished earlier than Graf but there are things Graf accomplished that Monica didn't, like a Grand Slam.

PPPPS I hope never to see you on here claiming a career slam is good indicator of talent given you seem to be taking the opposite stance at the moment. I assume you do not hold Agassi in high regard as this would be inconsistent with your argument for Seles.

PPPPPS You wouldn't know it from what I'm typing here but I rate Monica Seles' win at the Australian Open of 1993 as the biggest single tournament achievement by a woman, along with Billie Jean King's triumph at Wimbledon in 1973, as defined by strength of field.

Take care again

Tim

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 12:26 PM
You're right in what she accomplished earlier than Graf but there are things Graf accomplished that Monica didn't, like a Grand Slam.



And didn't a Graf fan stab the #1 ranked player in women's tennis, a teenager named Seles, in the back with a knife when the teenage Seles was #1 in women's tennis in the middle of Graf's career - even though Seles was only a teen?

drakulie
12-01-2007, 05:52 PM
And didn't a Graf fan stab the #1 ranked player in women's tennis, a teenager named Seles, in the back with a knife when the teenage Seles was #1 in women's tennis in the middle of Graf's career - even though Seles was only a teen?

And didn't Graf beat the crap out of that same #1 player when they met at Wimbledon?

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 08:37 PM
And didn't Graf beat the crap out of that same #1 player when they met at Wimbledon?

It was SELES who was dominant as a teenage phenom in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until a Graf fan had had enough and stabbed her in the back with a knife.

TheNatural
12-02-2007, 12:04 AM
thought I already educated atpballkid and fedsampras in seles/graf thread.The info showed that Seles could at MOST have expected to gain 0-2 of Grafs 6 slams in her absence. SO Seles has to look elsewhere to find her mising slams.

Wuornos
12-02-2007, 01:07 AM
And didn't a Graf fan stab the #1 ranked player in women's tennis, a teenager named Seles, in the back with a knife when the teenage Seles was #1 in women's tennis in the middle of Graf's career - even though Seles was only a teen?

There you go with this teen thing again. Anyone would think that improvement following on to being a teen was automatic. I can think of plenty of exapmles where this didn't happen. Personally I require evidence.

Hold on a second. I can see where your coming from. Of course. Günter Parche was 38 at the time. Well that proves it then.

lol .. :)

Wuornos
12-02-2007, 08:46 AM
1985 US Graf 2574
1985 Australian Graf 2574
1986 French Graf 2593
1986 Wimbledon Graf 2593
1986 US Graf 2610
1987 Australian Graf 2610
1987 French Graf 2678
1987 Wimbledon Graf 2712
1987 US Graf 2730
1988 Australian Graf 2773
1988 French Graf 2784
1988 Wimbledon Graf 2816
1988 US Graf 2839
1989 Australian Graf 2856
1989 French Graf 2846 Seles 2561
1989 Wimbledon Graf 2859 Seles 2561
1989 US Graf 2872 Seles 2561
1990 Australian Graf 2880 Seles 2561
1990 French Graf 2875 Seles 2628
1990 Wimbledon Graf 2854 Seles 2638
1990 US Graf 2838 Seles 2638
1991 Australian Graf 2811 Seles 2693
1991 French Graf 2801 Seles 2712
1991 Wimbledon Graf 2813 Seles 2708
1991 US Graf 2795 Seles 2752
1992 Australian Graf 2773 Seles 2771
1992 French Graf 2778 Seles 2785
1992 Wimbledon Graf 2786 Seles 2803
1992 US Graf 2770 Seles 2822
1993 Australian Graf 2780 Seles 2837
1993 French Graf 2801 Seles 2812
1993 Wimbledon Graf 2800 Seles 2802
1993 US Graf 2822 Seles 2774
1994 Australian Graf 2844 Seles 2738
1994 French Graf 2830 Seles 2718
1994 Wimbledon Graf 2800 Seles 2711
1994 US Graf 2795 Seles 2691
1995 Australian Graf 2768 Seles 2661
1995 French Graf 2787 Seles 2647
1995 Wimbledon Graf 2801 Seles 2642
1995 US Graf 2816 Seles 2659
1996 Australian Graf 2804 Seles 2684
1996 French Graf 2816 Seles 2684
1996 Wimbledon Graf 2826 Seles 2680
1996 US Graf 2835 Seles 2689
1997 Australian Graf 2828 Seles 2660
1997 French Graf 2802 Seles 2669
1997 Wimbledon Graf 2771 Seles 2669
1997 US Graf 2732 Seles 2651
1998 Australian Graf 2725 Seles 2639
1998 French Graf 2703 Seles 2656
1998 Wimbledon Graf 2684 Seles 2662
1998 US Graf 2656 Seles 2652
1999 Australian Graf 2663 Seles 2660
1999 French Graf 2693 Seles 2656
1999 Wimbledon Graf 2699 Seles 2653
1999 US Seles 2645
2000 Australian Seles 2631
2000 French Seles 2618
2000 Wimbledon Seles 2624
2000 US Seles 2619
2001 Australian Seles 2623
2001 French Seles 2609
2001 Wimbledon Seles 2603
2001 US Seles 2593
2002 Australian Seles 2606
2002 French Seles 2606
2002 Wimbledon Seles 2612
2002 US Seles 2619

Graf decline begins after Australain Open of 1990 before Seles became dominant.

Graf never again achieves a 2850+ Rating.

At the time Monica was stabbed she was playing her best tennis at 2837.

This is irrespective of Major count. Monica may well have gone on to exceed Steffi's 2880 peak standard, but we will never know.

Methodology of DOT Ratings can be found at http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=165420.

Regards

Tim

Wuornos
12-02-2007, 09:08 AM
Why is it that no one remembers that when Seles domminated, Graf was still not fully recovered from the scandal about her father and her post-scandal injuries? Graf was definitely not playing her best against Monica. Seles never faced prime Graf.

I agree completely. The decline in Graf was clear for all to see before Monica began her period of domination.

Regards

Tim

TheNatural
12-02-2007, 10:31 AM
but was it a decline or just a temporary form slump which coincided with Seles' period of domination?(the domination was over other players,she didnt play Graf much as Graf was in a bit of a slump) because around 1990-1992 is the period her father was having some issues etc and it affected her tennis.

She seems to have had loads of injuries too, so they would cause slumps/form loss at different periods, rather than a decline.

This is from wikipedia:
"
While the Berlin tournament was being played, the largest-circulation German tabloid, Bild, ran a story about Graf's father allegedly having an affair with a former Playboy model. The subsequent paternity suit brought by the model, Nicole Meissner, was covered extensively in the tabloids for the next two months. The difficulty of answering questions about the matter came to a head at a Wimbledon press conference, where Graf broke down in tears. Wimbledon authorities then threatened to immediately shut down any subsequent press conferences where questions about the issue were asked. The blackmail scheme eventually failed when DNA tests proved Peter was not the baby's father. Whether this scandal affected Graf's form is open to debate. In an interview with "Stern" magazine in July 1990, Graf stated, "I could not fight as usual." (quoted New York Times, July 13, 1990; Ferdinand Protzman: "Graf's Toughest Foe: the Press")

Graf again lost to Seles in the final of the French Open 7-6, 6-4, with Seles saving four consecutive set points in the first set tiebreaker. At Wimbledon, Graf was beaten unexpectedly in the semifinals by Garrison. After victories at Montreal and San Diego, Graf reached the U.S. Open final, where she lost in straight sets to Sabatini. Graf won four indoor tournaments after the U.S. Open, but lost again to Sabatini in a Virginia Slims Championships semifinal. Even though Graf won only one Grand Slam singles title in 1990, she finished the year as the top ranked player.

A mixture of injury problems, personal difficulties, and loss of form made 1991 a tough year for Graf. Seles established herself as the new dominant player on the women's tour, winning the Australian Open, French Open, and U.S. Open and, in March, ending Graf's record 186 consecutive-weeks hold on the World No. 1 ranking. Graf briefly regained the top ranking after winning at Wimbledon but lost it again after her loss to Jennifer Capriati in August."



I agree completely. The decline in Graf was clear for all to see before Monica began her period of domination.

Regards

Tim

FedSampras
12-02-2007, 12:35 PM
Seles could at MOST have expected to gain 0-2 of Grafs 6 slams in her absence.

Gunter Parche knew the only way to stop Seles was to stab her!!

Graff owes at least 10 slams to Gunter Parche and his KNIFING of Seles.

FedSampras
12-02-2007, 12:36 PM
Graf was clear for all to see before Monica began her period of domination.

Regards

Tim

Yes, but since Graff couldn't do it on the court, Parche had to do it with a knife.

FedSampras
12-02-2007, 12:44 PM
This is from wikipedia:
"
"

Wikipedia

Turning point: the 1993 stabbing

Seles was the top women's player heading into 1993, having won the French Open three consecutive years and both the U.S. Open and Australian Open in consecutive years. In January 1993, Seles defeated Graf in the final of the Australian Open, which to date was her third win in four Grand Slam finals with Graf.

Everything, however, changed following an incident that shocked the tennis world on April 30, 1993. During a quarterfinal match with Magdalena Maleeva in Hamburg in which Seles was leading 6-4, 4-3, a 38-year-old deranged fan of Graf, Günter Parche, ran from the middle of the crowd to the edge of the court during a break between games and plunged a boning knife between Seles's shoulder blades. She let out a piercing scream and was quickly rushed to a hospital. Her physical injuries took a few weeks to heal, but the psychological scars from this incident apparently left a much deeper impression on Seles. She did not return to competitive tennis for over two years.


Wikipedia

Günter Parche (b. July 4, 1954 in Hengen, Germany) was a 38-year-old unemployed German lathe operator, who on April 30, 1993 stabbed tennis player Monica Seles.

The incident occurred during a quarter-final match between Seles and Magdalena Maleeva, in which Seles was leading 6-4, 4-3. Seles had just sat down in her chair during a break between games when Parche ran from the stands to the edge of the court, leaned over the 3-foot barrier, and plunged a 10-inch boning knife between Seles' shoulder blades. She let out a piercing scream and was rushed to a hospital as security officers tackled Parche and took him into custody.

Media reports in the days following the attack described Parche as a loner, who was prompted to attack Seles because of an obsession with seeing the German player Steffi Graf regain the World No. 1 ranking.

Parche was charged with the attempted murder of Seles, but insisted that he did not intend to kill her, only injure her.

FedSampras
12-02-2007, 12:56 PM
While the Berlin tournament was being played, the largest-circulation German tabloid, Bild, ran a story about Graf's father allegedly having an affair with a former Playboy model.



It's astonishingly funny how the GraFans build up the "legendary" quality of those "daddy sex" distractions. As if no athlete has ever had a dad or mom or brother or sister embarrass the family by having affairs, getting busted for drugs, etc.

Compared to some of the other "traumas" tennis players have faced (Sampras seeing his beloved coach pass away, Agassi and his mom and sisters battles with breast cancer come immediately to mind) the Graff "daddy sex" situation can only be labelled "trivial". It's even trivial compared to the tax scandals of 95-96 which threatened to put her and dad in jail.

Yet somehow Sampras and Agassi kept playing, never experienced "slumps" of more than a month or so duration, etc. while we're supposed to believe that the comparitively trivial "sex scandal" traumatized Graff and caused her to 'slump' for years.

There should be some kind of spam-block software loaded onto TW to prevent that kind of nonsense from being posted.

In contrast, Seles's situation was indeed unique - getting attacked on court by a guy who didn't want you to play anymore for fear that you'd beat their hero, then seeing the joker walk almost scott-free thanks to the german legal system. It's a testament to her courage that Seles ever came back at all.

The GraFans could possibly have a point: It's reasonable that the embarrassment of having daddy's sex-scapades in the papers could have caused Graff to lose her focus for maybe a month or two. If Graff had lost just the GO and FO that spring of 1990 and then won everything else, a claim that she lost those two events because of off-court distractions would be defensible.

But of course Graff didn't just lose the GO and FO in 1990, she lost W, lost the USO, etc. She lost events far after anyone could reasonably claim that the "sex scandal" could possibly still be affecting her.

That, among many other facts, makes it clear what actually caused any "slump" Graff may have experienced - getting beat when she was at her best by Seles at the 90 GO and then FO. That broke her "aura" and opened the door to other players to beat her as well.

It's all plain as day to anyone who isn't a mindless GraFan.:lol::lol::lol:

FedSampras
12-02-2007, 01:02 PM
personal difficulties[/B], and loss of form made 1991


Grafan, this has been discussed ad nauseum and it always turns out badly for you. The "scandal" of daddy Graff hooking up with the stripper was known to Graff in the winter of 89/90. That of course was the biggest psychological blow, and it had zilch effect on her tennis. The 'media hunt' was over by the summer of 90, and that was psychologically trivial by comparison to the actual facts of what daddy graf had done anyway.

Case dismissed.:lol:

lambielspins
12-02-2007, 06:40 PM
Of course Graf was in a slump in the early 90s when Monica was so dominant. The slump was named Monica Seles.

FedForGOAT
12-02-2007, 08:15 PM
but was it a decline or just a temporary form slump which coincided with Seles' period of domination?(the domination was over other players,she didnt play Graf much as Graf was in a bit of a slump) because around 1990-1992 is the period her father was having some issues etc and it affected her tennis.

She seems to have had loads of injuries too, so they would cause slumps/form loss at different periods, rather than a decline.

This is from wikipedia:
"
While the Berlin tournament was being played, the largest-circulation German tabloid, Bild, ran a story about Graf's father allegedly having an affair with a former Playboy model. The subsequent paternity suit brought by the model, Nicole Meissner, was covered extensively in the tabloids for the next two months. The difficulty of answering questions about the matter came to a head at a Wimbledon press conference, where Graf broke down in tears. Wimbledon authorities then threatened to immediately shut down any subsequent press conferences where questions about the issue were asked. The blackmail scheme eventually failed when DNA tests proved Peter was not the baby's father. Whether this scandal affected Graf's form is open to debate. In an interview with "Stern" magazine in July 1990, Graf stated, "I could not fight as usual." (quoted New York Times, July 13, 1990; Ferdinand Protzman: "Graf's Toughest Foe: the Press")

Graf again lost to Seles in the final of the French Open 7-6, 6-4, with Seles saving four consecutive set points in the first set tiebreaker. At Wimbledon, Graf was beaten unexpectedly in the semifinals by Garrison. After victories at Montreal and San Diego, Graf reached the U.S. Open final, where she lost in straight sets to Sabatini. Graf won four indoor tournaments after the U.S. Open, but lost again to Sabatini in a Virginia Slims Championships semifinal. Even though Graf won only one Grand Slam singles title in 1990, she finished the year as the top ranked player.

A mixture of injury problems, personal difficulties, and loss of form made 1991 a tough year for Graf. Seles established herself as the new dominant player on the women's tour, winning the Australian Open, French Open, and U.S. Open and, in March, ending Graf's record 186 consecutive-weeks hold on the World No. 1 ranking. Graf briefly regained the top ranking after winning at Wimbledon but lost it again after her loss to Jennifer Capriati in August."

That's what i was trying to say all along.

Wuornos
12-03-2007, 12:56 AM
Of course Graf was in a slump in the early 90s when Monica was so dominant. The slump was named Monica Seles.

No, the Graf decline started before the Seles domination. Graf's results declined after the 1989 Australian Open.

The DOT ratings I posted earlier have an allowance built in for the domination of other players on the world scene. Even allwing for Seles, Graf's form against the rest of the world during the Seles domination was less than it had been earlier in her career.

Regards

Tim

rogerfederer26
12-03-2007, 04:54 PM
Gunter Parche knew the only way to stop Seles was to stab her!!

Graff owes at least 10 slams to Gunter Parche and his KNIFING of Seles.

Agreed. It's no mere coincidence that Steffi returned to #1 and started racking up Grand Slam titles again right after Seles was stabbed!

rogerfederer26
12-03-2007, 05:13 PM
................

rogerfederer26
12-03-2007, 05:16 PM
A mixture of injury problems, personal difficulties, and loss of form made 1991 a tough year for Graf. Seles established herself as the new dominant player on the women's

For all of Graf's accomplishments, I detect an incredible sense of personal insecurity from her. Maybe because she has never really had a worthy rival, she's never really learned to lose her fear of losing. The closest she came, of course, was with Seles, and her losses to Seles seemed immensely difficult for her to take; I remember her sobbing after losing that last AO final to Seles. In fact, Graf seemed more emotional following those tight 1992 French and 1993 Australian losses than she has in dealing with her father's imprisonment.

lambielspins
12-03-2007, 05:23 PM
The problem with Graf is she did not fare well the few times she played a fellow top notch great in their primes. In 1987 neither Graf or Navratilova were completely in their primes, Martina probably ended in 86, Steffi probably started in 88, however they were probably pretty close to each other in that regards. In big matches Graf came up short, barely beating Martina on the clay which most favors her in the matchup in 3 tough sets, then being spanked in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals. Then in 91 and 92 with both she and Seles in their primes Graf won only Wimbledon, while Seles won the other 3 slams. So the brief period she faced a fellow great in their mutual primes she showed unable to win on anything but their worst surface.

The other interesting thing though is she had wins over Seles on hard courts and clay in smaller events in 91, yet couldnt stop her in a slam event on those surfaces. Likewise she clobbered Martina on hard courts and clay in smaller events in 86 and 87, yet she could only barely beat Martina on clay at the French, and couldnt beat her on hard courts in the U.S those two years. So maybe that is an indication she wasnt as mentally strong as those two, that she did better vs them during these periods in smaller events then the slams.

rogerfederer26
12-03-2007, 06:42 PM
The problem with Graf is she did not fare well the few times she played a fellow top notch great in their primes. In 1987 neither Graf or Navratilova were completely in their primes, Martina probably ended in 86, Steffi probably started in 88, however they were probably pretty close to each other in that regards. In big matches Graf came up short, barely beating Martina on the clay which most favors her in the matchup in 3 tough sets, then being spanked in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals. Then in 91 and 92 with both she and Seles in their primes Graf won only Wimbledon, while Seles won the other 3 slams. So the brief period she faced a fellow great in their mutual primes she showed unable to win on anything but their worst surface.

The other interesting thing though is she had wins over Seles on hard courts and clay in smaller events in 91, yet couldnt stop her in a slam event on those surfaces. Likewise she clobbered Martina on hard courts and clay in smaller events in 86 and 87, yet she could only barely beat Martina on clay at the French, and couldnt beat her on hard courts in the U.S those two years. So maybe that is an indication she wasnt as mentally strong as those two, that she did better vs them during these periods in smaller events then the slams.

I agree 100%! Excellent post!