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View Full Version : What would happen if Randy Moss of patriots went against Deon Sanders one on one


Fedace
11-30-2007, 12:14 AM
This year, there is a big hoopla over patriots since Undefeated season is a real possiblity. Patriot's good fortunes are largely due to great play of Randy Moss, possibly the best wide receiver the game has ever seen. but i have to wonder what would happen if he went one on one against the best defensive end in history of NFL, prime Time Deon Sanders for the whole game. If prime time was still playing, most likely he will just play Randy Moss one on one for the duration of the game, unless Deon gets torched for several touch downs early in the game. Can Deon keep Randy under 100 yards receiving ? Can Deon keep Randy Moss to 2 or less touchdowns ?:confused:

Phil
11-30-2007, 12:22 AM
This year, there is a big hoopla over patriots since Undefeated season is a real possiblity. Patriot's good fortunes are largely due to great play of Randy Moss, possibly the best wide receiver the game has ever seen. but i have to wonder what would happen if he went one on one against the best defensive end in history of NFL, prime Time Deon Sanders for the whole game. If prime time was still playing, most likely he will just play Randy Moss one on one for the duration of the game, unless Deon gets torched for several touch downs early in the game. Can Deon keep Randy under 100 yards receiving ? Can Deon keep Randy Moss to 2 or less touchdowns ?:confused:
"Largely due"? How about Tom Brady...or has he actually been sitting the bench these last 11 games?

Deon is not the best defensive BACK (not "end", nitwit) in history. He was a great deep coverage man, but not the best and certainly not the best DB-the guy was afraid to make a hit, ferchrissakes. Your judgement on this matter has obviously been warped by the "Neon Deon" hype of the 90's. Moss would probably score all over him.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 12:33 AM
"Largely due"? How about Tom Brady...or has he actually been sitting the bench these last 11 games?

Deon is not the best defensive BACK (not "end", nitwit) in history. He was a great deep coverage man, but not the best and certainly not the best DB-the guy was afraid to make a hit, ferchrissakes. Your judgement on this matter has obviously been warped by the "Neon Deon" hype of the 90's. Moss would probably score all over him.

Phil, i use to respect you but now with this comment, i am changing my mind about you. Deon Sanders is the ONLY defensive back(ok my fault on def end part) in history of NFL that could literally shut down 1/2 of the field all by himself. OK, i mean 1/2 of the football field was covered by Deon by himself. He is the BEST cover cornerback in history of NFL. You can play tapes of any good NFL commentators like Sean Salsbury, John Madden, Mike Ditka and Terry Bradshaw. they all agree. and As far as that QB tom Brady, he is a good player but not the best in history. If you bother to watch any of the NFL games at all when Pats play, Often times Brady just throws up the ball in the area where he thinks will be randy Moss, and Randy just goes and gets it. Tom Brady is just overrated.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 12:39 AM
Oh and if you stick in Rex Grossman of the Bears into Patriot's QB spot, they would still be undefeated.

Phil
11-30-2007, 01:08 AM
Phil, i use to respect you but now with this comment, i am changing my mind about you. Deon Sanders is the ONLY defensive back(ok my fault on def end part) in history of NFL that could literally shut down 1/2 of the field all by himself. OK, i mean 1/2 of the football field was covered by Deon by himself. He is the BEST cover cornerback in history of NFL. You can play tapes of any good NFL commentators like Sean Salsbury, John Madden, Mike Ditka and Terry Bradshaw. they all agree. and As far as that QB tom Brady, he is a good player but not the best in history. If you bother to watch any of the NFL games at all when Pats play, Often times Brady just throws up the ball in the area where he thinks will be randy Moss, and Randy just goes and gets it. Tom Brady is just overrated.
Well don't lose your respect for me yet, Fedace. Hear me out.

I never said Brady was the best QB in history (as you're inflating Sanders as the best DB in history). But he is one of the best big game QB's...he has THREE Super Bowl rings to prove it...and all of those were won WITHOUT Moss. Who do you think is the common denominator from the Pats first SB win to now? Huh? Do you RELLY believe that Rex Grossman could do the same? So, whoever Brady's receivers are, he wins games. Granted, Moss is the best he's ever had, but without him, the Pats would still be the best team in the NFL, IMO. You don't seem to understand that a receiver, no matter how good, is made better by his QB.

This statement of yours proves to me that you are ignorant about some of the finer points of the game:

Often times Brady just throws up the ball in the area where he thinks will be randy Moss, and Randy just goes and gets it.
I got news for you: that's how ALL QB's and WR's operate in the pros, not just Moss. Other than a broken play or a secondary target, NFL QB's throw to SPOTS (i.e. the place where they expect the receiver to end up after running his pattern). They do not tell a WR to "go down and out" and then throw to him when he gets open...that's street ball, not the NFL. You need to play more "Madden" to learn about these things...:-?

There is more to being the best than being just a deep cover man. Again, the guy was afraid to take or make a hit. That's a minus in my book. He didn't play all that many games, either. He was a GREAT deep cover man-I'm not denying that, but the "Best Ever"...no way. I'll take Mel Blount, Mike Haynes, Lem Barney and a few others over Deon...because they were COMPLETE defensive players. On running plays, they did not "run away".

tzinc
11-30-2007, 01:12 AM
Moss might have played Deion in his career I can't remember right now. If he did Moss probably torched him. Moss is the BEST period.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 01:14 AM
Those guys you mentioned couldn't cover 1/2 of the football field like Deon could. and if Deon Sanders was afraid to make a hit, then that means Moss would run all over Deon, which i cannot believe. Since only way to stop Moss is to jam him at the line and get in his face. once he is past you, you can forget about it. Moss just tells brady to throw it as far as he can, and he will go get it.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 01:15 AM
Moss might have played Deion in his career I can't remember right now. If he did Moss probably torched him. Moss is the BEST period.

Another Wise man.

Phil
11-30-2007, 01:29 AM
Those guys you mentioned couldn't cover 1/2 of the football field like Deon could. and if Deon Sanders was afraid to make a hit, then that means Moss would run all over Deon, which i cannot believe. Since only way to stop Moss is to jam him at the line and get in his face. once he is past you, you can forget about it. Moss just tells brady to throw it as far as he can, and he will go get it.
You obviously did not read my comments.

Brady could play with Div. II college receivers and somehow find a way to win. Three rings, buddy. Three. How many rings does Moss have? Oh, wait...he played for the Vikings most of his career. Nevermind.

lethalfang
11-30-2007, 01:38 AM
The greatest receiver in history is Jerry Rice, who holds almost every meaningful receiving record in the NFL.
Randy Moss? Please!

Fedace
11-30-2007, 06:21 AM
The greatest receiver in history is Jerry Rice, who holds almost every meaningful receiving record in the NFL.
Randy Moss? Please!

Ok, Jerry Rice has more records, i will admit that. However, Rice was never a physical phenomonen. Moss on the other hand, is one of the fastest, and longest reach with arm in NFL history. Look at some of the one handed impossible catches he makes, Rice could never do that.

Phil
11-30-2007, 06:41 AM
Ok, Jerry Rice has more records, i will admit that. However, Rice was never a physical phenomonen. Moss on the other hand, is one of the fastest, and longest reach with arm in NFL history. Look at some of the one handed impossible catches he makes, Rice could never do that.
Rice not a physical phenomenon? The receiver who continued to break records after 20 years in the league? The WR who left everyone in the dust-the big, fast WR? You must be kidding.

You should stick to playing Madden because you don't know squat about pro football. that is the third ignorant statement you made here, and along with the other two, some of the dumbest, illogical shiate I've read on this board. By the way, how many Super Bowl rings does Rice have?

norcal
11-30-2007, 07:26 AM
Moss might have played Deion in his career I can't remember right now. If he did Moss probably torched him. Moss is the BEST period. You mean the guy who takes numerous plays off (seasons off when he was with the Raiders), won't block down field and is a cancer in the locker room?

You realize the Patriots got him for nothing (5th round pick)? Wonder why? Great receiver when he's not pouting, lousy teammate.

Oh and Jerry Rice kicked *** on Dancing with the Stars too (or so my wife said). Let's see Randy put down the bong long enough to accomplish that!

Fedace
11-30-2007, 07:32 AM
Rice not a physical phenomenon? The receiver who continued to break records after 20 years in the league? The WR who left everyone in the dust-the big, fast WR? You must be kidding.

You should stick to playing Madden because you don't know squat about pro football. that is the third ignorant statement you made here, and along with the other two, some of the dumbest, illogical shiate I've read on this board. By the way, how many Super Bowl rings does Rice have?

You have this worship syndrome with Jerry Rice, i think. Rice was never a speedy receiver, actually had mediocre speed for a great WR. But Rice had great hands and knowing how to run great routes and uncanny ability to outthink his defensive back that was on him. Rice had a great mind but not a great physical ability. and Moss is kind of opposite of Rice, i think. You claim to know something about Rice but you just proved to me that you do not.:(

Phil
11-30-2007, 07:41 AM
You have this worship syndrome with Jerry Rice, i think. Rice was never a speedy receiver, actually had mediocre speed for a great WR. But Rice had great hands and knowing how to run great routes and uncanny ability to outthink his defensive back that was on him. Rice had a great mind but not a great physical ability. and Moss is kind of opposite of Rice, i think. You claim to know something about Rice but you just proved to me that you do not.:(
I don't "worship" Rice-I'm just acknowledging the facts; his numbers speak for himself. You don't compile those numbers over the course of two decades by having "mediocre speed" or "not a great (sic) physical ability". Boy, you dig your hole deeper each time you post on this subject.

Moss, as Norcal said, is a cancer in the locker room and has never been much of an asset to his teams. There are plenty of talented malcontents in professional sports. But now he has no choice, with Brady and Belichik, but to actually behave. He's very lucky to be where he is now.

357sig
11-30-2007, 08:07 AM
Ronnie Lott would have made Randy cry like a little school boy lost in the supermarket.

tennis-n-sc
11-30-2007, 09:39 AM
Ronnie Lott would have made Randy cry like a little school boy lost in the supermarket.

You got that right. Sanders was a fast athlete whose abilities were often embellished to include closing down half the field, a great exaggeration. Many recievers loved to catch a ball and then run to Sanders, who abhored physical contact. Lott on the other hand, though not as naturally gifted as Sanders, actually tried to take heads off bodies. One the most vicious hitters the league has ever known, cheap shots and all. ;) Moss' career has been mostly wasted unitl finding Brady. He should thank his lucky stars.

Tchocky
11-30-2007, 09:48 AM
Who know? Hypothetical questions about matchups between athletes of today and athletes of the past are such a waste of time.

norcal
11-30-2007, 09:52 AM
Rice didn't have great 'timer' speed but he had great 'football' speed. How many times was he caught from behind? Not many. Subtle cuts here and there and the fastest DB in the world won't catch you.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 09:54 AM
I don't "worship" Rice-I'm just acknowledging the facts; his numbers speak for himself. You don't compile those numbers over the course of two decades by having "mediocre speed" or "not a great (sic) physical ability". Boy, you dig your hole deeper each time you post on this subject.

Moss, as Norcal said, is a cancer in the locker room and has never been much of an asset to his teams. There are plenty of talented malcontents in professional sports. But now he has no choice, with Brady and Belichik, but to actually behave. He's very lucky to be where he is now.

Phil, i am not denying the fact that Randy Can(currently not) be a cancer in the locker room. and he chose not to play when at Oakland. But randy is all about winning, he wants to win, he saw no chance to win at Oakland so he behaved badly, not that it is a excuse. At New england, he is at his best cause he is winning. Jerry Rice has a better mind, not as good physically or is he as talented as Moss. Moss has alot more pure physical talent than Rice ever had. Besides, Rice was always with a good team and a great QB, Montana and Young. Luxury that Moss did NOT have in his career. You are just dissing Moss cause he is a bad boy and you don't like him.

tbini87
11-30-2007, 09:55 AM
Ok, Jerry Rice has more records, i will admit that. However, Rice was never a physical phenomonen. Moss on the other hand, is one of the fastest, and longest reach with arm in NFL history. Look at some of the one handed impossible catches he makes, Rice could never do that.

you have to be incredible to have any record in the NFL, let alone the records Rice was able to set. he did everything right, and was fundamentally sound. you don't need to be the fastest or tallest to be the best... that is like saying Ryan Leaf must be better than Doug Flutie because he was much taller and had a stronger arm. hmmm. not to mention i think Rice was a pretty class guy, and was probably a good teammate. i wish the same could be said about Moss. the guy plays when he wants, and usually runs routes only when he expects to get the ball. he is lucky he got hooked up w/
Brady, or else his career would have probably ended in disaster. who would you say is the best Tight End to play in the NFL? by your standards, it would have to be Vernon Davis who is bigger, faster, stronger, and can jump higher than any other player from that position... right?

Fedace
11-30-2007, 09:56 AM
Rice didn't have great 'timer' speed but he had great 'football' speed. How many times was he caught from behind? Not many. Subtle cuts here and there and the fastest DB in the world won't catch you.

I Agree with you on this. Rice had the best or better moves than Moss after he caught the ball. also Rice had more elusive ability to escape from the defensive back once he caught the ball. but put Moss and Rice in a sprint, Moss will blow Rice away.

tbini87
11-30-2007, 09:57 AM
o, and as far as Moss v Sanders in their prime, i would have to guess it would go to Moss. but what are the standards for judging that? i would guess Sanders would have great coverage and would do a better job than most could... but overall Moss would catch more than he would miss...

Fedace
11-30-2007, 09:57 AM
and since when did this turn into who is better Moss or Rice? I was trying to get at the question, Can Best Deon Sanders cover Randy Moss one on one ?

Fedace
11-30-2007, 09:59 AM
o, and as far as Moss v Sanders in their prime, i would have to guess it would go to Moss. but what are the standards for judging that? i would guess Sanders would have great coverage and would do a better job than most could... but overall Moss would catch more than he would miss...

To me, if Deon can keep Moss under 100 yards and under 2 touchdowns for the entire game with no help, One on One, then that is what i would call doing a great job on the best receiver in NFL.

tbini87
11-30-2007, 10:00 AM
I Agree with you on this. Rice had the best or better moves than Moss after he caught the ball. also Rice had more elusive ability to escape from the defensive back once he caught the ball. but put Moss and Rice in a sprint, Moss will blow Rice away.

people put way to much emphasis on 40 speed, bench press, etc. who wins a sprint does not indicate who is the better football player, nor does who can bench more. doesn't matter if you can beat everyone down the field if you can't catch. it is more mental than that. another big knock on moss is that he won't go across the middle. he has a little more this season, so maybe he will beat that knock, but who knows.

tbini87
11-30-2007, 10:01 AM
and since when did this turn into who is better Moss or Rice? I was trying to get at the question, Can Best Deon Sanders cover Randy Moss one on one ?

when people starting saying Moss was the best receiver in the NFL...

tbini87
11-30-2007, 10:02 AM
To me, if Deon can keep Moss under 100 yards and under 2 touchdowns for the entire game with no help, One on One, then that is what i would call doing a great job on the best receiver in NFL.

he might be able to, but not right now with how the patriots offense is rolling. also depends on how the pass rush is going, if it is non-existent, i doubt Sanders could do much...

goober
11-30-2007, 10:03 AM
Phil, i use to respect you but now with this comment, i am changing my mind about you. Deon Sanders is the ONLY defensive back(ok my fault on def end part) in history of NFL that could literally shut down 1/2 of the field all by himself. OK, i mean 1/2 of the football field was covered by Deon by himself. He is the BEST cover cornerback in history of NFL.

LOL- no defensive back can shut down or even cover 1/2 the field by himself. Anybody who says that has never played or even understands the game of football. Commentators who made some such similar comments were engaging in hyperbole and they were well aware of it.

The NFL has changed a lot over the last 10 years. If Deion was playing today he would not nearly be as effective as he was when he was playing in his prime. I agree with Atlanta Falcons offensive coordinator Greg Knapp when he says

Ten years ago, you had a lot of teams using two-back, two-wide receiver formations. Now you have a lot of multiple-receiver or two tight-end sets. Even if you have to face a shutdown cornerback, you can scheme to the point that you really don't have to deal with him

Is Deion one of the best cover corner in NFL history? Sure but don't go out on a limb or anything, that is like boldy proclaiming that Federer is one of the best players of all time.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 10:08 AM
people put way to much emphasis on 40 speed, bench press, etc. who wins a sprint does not indicate who is the better football player, nor does who can bench more. doesn't matter if you can beat everyone down the field if you can't catch. it is more mental than that. another big knock on moss is that he won't go across the middle. he has a little more this season, so maybe he will beat that knock, but who knows.

You are right again, what made Rice so great is his ability to make moves and get 10-20 more yards after he caught the ball. and that has nothing to do with pure sprinter speed. It is more instinct on knowing where the defensive guy is and making moves accordingly. Moss on the other hand is not as good at this, but he is so good just cause he can just flat out outjump or outrun his cover guy. and as far as Moss vs Prime time, these are both guys that doesn't like to hit or block people so this could be a matchup made in heaven.

tbini87
11-30-2007, 10:10 AM
^ yeah, it would have been very fun to watch. both of those personalities going at it...

Fedace
11-30-2007, 10:12 AM
LOL- no defensive back can shut down or even cover 1/2 the field by himself. Anybody who says that has never played or even understands the game of football. Commentators who made some such similar comments were engaging in hyperbole and they were well aware of it.

The NFL has changed a lot over the last 10 years. If Deion was playing today he would not nearly be as effective as he was when he was playing in his prime. I agree with Atlanta Falcons offensive coordinator Greg Knapp when he says



Is Deion one of the best cover corner in NFL history? Sure but don't go out on a limb or anything, that is like boldy proclaiming that Federer is one of the best players of all time.

What are you talking about ? Federer is the BEST player in history of the Game, Period. and i don't even like federer. I am sure in 50 years or so, better player might come along since athletes are constantly getting better but til then Federer is the BEST in history of the game thus far.

hjminard
11-30-2007, 10:13 AM
Randy Moss better than Jerry Rice? Utterly laughable. One great season doesn't overcome a career filled with me-first mentality and wasted potential.

Deion Sanders the GOAT DB? Flashy and highly overrated. I could name at least 10 better all-around cornerbacks.

You must be very young or have a very short attention span. I suppose you also think that L.T. is better than Jim Brown?

Fedace
11-30-2007, 10:16 AM
Randy Moss better than Jerry Rice? Utterly laughable. One great season doesn't overcome a career filled with me-first mentality and wasted potential.

Deion Sanders the GOAT DB? Flashy and highly overrated. I could name at least 10 better all-around cornerbacks.

You must be very young or have a very short attention span. I suppose you also think that L.T. is better than Jim Brown?

Yes LT is better athlete than Jim Brown. but in a fist fight, i will take Jim Brown. I say once again, Jerry Rice was with 49ers for most of his career, great team and great QBs, on the other hand, Moss had mediocre teams like the Vikings, and Terrible team like Raiders. so if you compare them that way, it really does not wash.

goober
11-30-2007, 10:22 AM
What are you talking about ? Federer is the BEST player in history of the Game, Period. and i don't even like federer. I am sure in 50 years or so, better player might come along since athletes are constantly getting better but til then Federer is the BEST in history of the game thus far.

I am glad your supposed Stanford education has helped with your reading comprehension. You may want to go back and review what is an analogy. Here if you needed it explained in simplified terms:

Deion Sanders is universally considered one of the best cover corners. Federer is universally considered one of the best tennis players ever. Beating your chest and proclaiming how great Deion is not really a great insight or stated something that is not inherently obvious.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 10:28 AM
I am glad your supposed Stanford education has helped with your reading comprehension. You may want to go back and review what is an analogy. Here if you needed it explained in simplified terms:

Deion Sanders is universally considered one of the best cover corners. Federer is universally considered one of the best tennis players ever. Beating your chest and proclaiming how great Deion is not really a great insight or stated something that is not inherently obvious.

Your statement did not sound at all like an analogy. There are many who does not consider Deon as the best cover corner in history, that is actually a very controversial subject

goober
11-30-2007, 10:35 AM
Your statement did not sound at all like an analogy. There are many who does not consider Deon as the best cover corner in history, that is actually a very controversial subject

I didn't say best, I said one of the best. Still don't like reading I see.
Deion is almost always on any list of top cornerbacks of all time. At any position in football there are very few, if any people are considered the best of all time where there is complete agreement among experts or fans.

tricky
11-30-2007, 10:39 AM
Deion is almost always on any list of top cornerbacks of all time.

That's my understanding too. Perennially on the short list.

10sfreak
11-30-2007, 03:18 PM
Deion Sanders was the best ever "pure cover" DB in the NFL. Randy Moss is one of the best receivers in history. Unfortunately for Sanders, a great QB/great receiver combo will beat a great DB most of the time. Back in the '90s, I remember the Aikman-to-Irvin combo would just eat Sanders up before he joined the Cowboys.
Also, there's no way that Ronnie Lott could have covered Moss, Rice, or any other good NFL receiver one on one - he was a safety, not a cornerback. But he could HIT!! LOL!

goober
11-30-2007, 04:06 PM
Deion Sanders was the best ever "pure cover" DB in the NFL. Randy Moss is one of the best receivers in history. Unfortunately for Sanders, a great QB/great receiver will beat a great DB most of the time. Back in the '90s, I remember the Aikman-to-Irvin combo would just eat Sanders up before he joined the Cowboys.
Also, there's no way that Ronnie Lott could have covered Moss, Rice, or any other good NFL receiver one on one - he was a safety, not a cornerback. But he could HIT!! LOL!

I agree Offenses are generally at an advantage and can scheme to take one person out of the picture. Also the rules greatly favor receivers nowadays with the no contact beyond 5 yards. I think Sanders could greatly limit Moss, but Deion would be pretty susceptible to fade routes and jump balls where 6"4" Moss would have a decided advantage. And you are right even though Deion was Known as a shut down corner he did not shut down Aikman/Irvin combo.

tricky
11-30-2007, 04:20 PM
It's more like, given an average of 3 seconds, could a Deion Sanders lock down a Randy Moss? I think he would do a pretty good job. But it looks like Brady has 4+ seconds to throw on average, in which Moss becomes uncoverable. The Pats didn't have that against the Eagles, and that is as much a part of why Moss was kinda taken out of the game as their physical play on him.

tzinc
11-30-2007, 04:32 PM
You obviously did not read my comments.

Brady could play with Div. II college receivers and somehow find a way to win. Three rings, buddy. Three. How many rings does Moss have? Oh, wait...he played for the Vikings most of his career. Nevermind.

Brady NEVER had numbers like these without Moss.

Brady iirc NEVER won REGULAR SEASON MVP he will with Moss.

Brady's Pats never threatened to set all time scoring records (and QB records) without Moss.

Moss has made a huge difference to Brady and the Pats even they say so.

The PATS never threatened to go undefeated before Moss.

Moss was on a team that set the NFL record for points that the PATs are chasing that is NOT a coincidence.

As Madden said Moss is the non-QB MVP of the NFL. You could argue he is the MVP.

Fedace
11-30-2007, 04:35 PM
Brady NEVER had numbers like these without Moss.

Brady iirc NEVER won REGULAR SEASON MVP he will with Moss.

Brady's Pats never threatened to set all time scoring records (and QB records) without Moss.

Moss has made a huge difference to Brady and the Pats even they say so.

Moss was on a team that set the NFL record for points that the PATs are chasing that is NOT a coincedence.

These are all good points.

lethalfang
11-30-2007, 04:38 PM
Ok, Jerry Rice has more records, i will admit that. However, Rice was never a physical phenomonen. Moss on the other hand, is one of the fastest, and longest reach with arm in NFL history. Look at some of the one handed impossible catches he makes, Rice could never do that.

Jerry Rice has world's most underrated speed for a WR. Has he ever been chased down from behind before his 2 knee surgeries?
There's another thing Rice does best: tiptoeing the sideline for a grab. No one does that better than Jerry Rice.

tricky
11-30-2007, 04:43 PM
Yeah, but remember that Brady never had Stallworth and Wes Walker either. Their WR set is overall at a level higher than Brady's ever had in his career.

These two comments are also both true:

Brady could play with Div. II college receivers and somehow find a way to win. Brady NEVER had numbers like these without Moss.Brady also didn't have a running back of note until Corey Dillon came. You look at the HOF-level QBs of the last 20 years, and you could make the argument that only Elway had less to work with for most of his career.

Jerry Rice has world's most underrated speed for a WR.

It's unbelievable how low Rice was drafted. Apparently, he scored REALLY low on his combine speed and that effected his position.

lethalfang
11-30-2007, 04:51 PM
It's unbelievable how low Rice was drafted. Apparently, he scored REALLY low on his combine speed and that effected his position.

Yes, Jerry Rice was drafted, if I remember correctly, 16th overall in the 1st round. Bill Walsh got a lot of heat for "reaching for" Rice.
Jerry Rice reported ran a 4.6 to 4.7 in the 40-yard dash, not to mention having played for a small D-1AA college.

But remember 2 things:
1) the combine 40-yard dash is clocked by a stopwatch operated by a human, and that's quite inaccurate due to the reaction time of the operator;
2) players in the combines run with sprinters' gears, but when they play football they have to wear full gear. The question is, how does a player's sprinting speed translates into football?

tricky
11-30-2007, 05:24 PM
2) players in the combines run with sprinters' gears, but when they play football they have to wear full gear. The question is, how does a player's sprinting speed translates into football?

But I think it does pretty well with WRs. I remember Mike Williams having a unusually slow timer speed, which got blown off at draft day. Turns out his speed has been an issue for him being a bust. Didn't Moss have a 4.12?

lethalfang
11-30-2007, 05:55 PM
But I think it does pretty well with WRs. I remember Mike Williams having a unusually slow timer speed, which got blown off at draft day. Turns out his speed has been an issue for him being a bust. Didn't Moss have a 4.12?

It is reported that Randy Moss was clocked 4.25 for a 40-yard dash. Deon Sanders had reportedly run a 4.23.

It's difficult to compare stopwatch speeds taken at very different time and location, as sprinters will tell you.

The way Deon Sanders covers the WRs is reminiscent of how Willie Mays runs the bases.
It's been said that Willie Mays, when he runs from 1st to 3rd, would intentionally go slower than he can in order to bait the outfielder to throw to the 3rd baseman, so that if he makes a throwing error Mays will score.
Deon Sanders sometimes intentionally leave the WR slightly open, in order to bait the QB to throw his direction, so that he can pick it off.

bluegrasser
12-01-2007, 04:51 AM
To really appreciate Moss you have to see him live, & I did on several occasions & to answer your question - Moss would prevail in most cases, that is if he's free after the five yard contact point and it's just him & Deon.

Phil
12-02-2007, 06:14 AM
Brady NEVER had numbers like these without Moss.

Brady iirc NEVER won REGULAR SEASON MVP he will with Moss.

Brady's Pats never threatened to set all time scoring records (and QB records) without Moss.

Moss has made a huge difference to Brady and the Pats even they say so.

The PATS never threatened to go undefeated before Moss.

Moss was on a team that set the NFL record for points that the PATs are chasing that is NOT a coincidence.

As Madden said Moss is the non-QB MVP of the NFL. You could argue he is the MVP.
Undefeated seasons, scoring records, MVP's...for pro football players, those are nice, but the gold standard is the Vince Lombardi Trophy (i.e. winning the Super Bowl) and Brady has three of 'em, without Moss. As Tricky wrote, Brady never had all that much to work worth, considering what he's achieved. Now that he has Moss, he will in all likelihood SURPRISE...win another Super Bowl. Moss just got lucky and finally got on a good team, so NOW he's actually motivated to go out and play for 4 quarters (instead of his normaly 2 or less).

Fedace
12-02-2007, 06:59 AM
Undefeated seasons, scoring records, MVP's...for pro football players, those are nice, but the gold standard is the Vince Lombardi Trophy (i.e. winning the Super Bowl) and Brady has three of 'em, without Moss. As Tricky wrote, Brady never had all that much to work worth, considering what he's achieved. Now that he has Moss, he will in all likelihood SURPRISE...win another Super Bowl. Moss just got lucky and finally got on a good team, so NOW he's actually motivated to go out and play for 4 quarters (instead of his normaly 2 or less).

You cannot judge individual players on Super Bowl trophys, that is not a fair assessment. Many Great players have never won super bowls. It is just a matter of being on a great team. Tom Braday was LUCKY enough to be on a great team with great coach, Patriots. while Randy moss was Unlucky and had been on a Terrible teams in the past. So you don't really know what you are saying

Phil
12-02-2007, 07:06 AM
You cannot judge individual players on Super Bowl trophys, that is not a fair assessment. Many Great players have never won super bowls. It is just a matter of being on a great team. Tom Braday was LUCKY enough to be on a great team with great coach, Patriots. while Randy moss was Unlucky and had been on a Terrible teams in the past. So you don't really know what you are saying
You said, earlier on, that the only reason Brady and N. England are where they are this season is because of Moss. After LMAO at that comment, I countered with the fact that Brady HAS been where he is now for several seasons and has the hardware to prove it. Screw Moss. Brady is a winner and winners win trophies.

You CAN judge individual players on Super Bowl Trophies...Montana, Bradshaw, Starr, Namath, Payton, Snake Stabler, Lawence Taylor, Emmitt Smith, Elway...these guys and others would have won wherever they played. Some have it and others don't. And of course, others are simply "unlucky". So it's you who doesn't know what you're saying.

Fedace
12-02-2007, 07:13 AM
You said, earlier on, that the only reason Brady and N. England are where they are this season is because of Moss. After LMAO at that comment, I countered with the fact that Brady HAS been where he is now for several seasons and has the hardware to prove it. Screw Moss. Brady is a winner and winners win trophies.

You CAN judge individual players on Super Bowl Trophies...Montana, Bradshaw, Starr, Namath, Payton, Snake Stabler, Lawence Taylor, Emmitt Smith, Elway...these guys and others would have won wherever they played. Some have it and others don't. And of course, others are simply "unlucky". So it's you who doesn't know what you're saying.

Why can't you give Moss the credit he deserves ? you have this strange flipped hatred for Moss, i don't get it. Just to prove my point, before Moss joined the patriots, they never EVER had a season like they are having this year. Sure they won super bowls, but blowing opponents by 30 points and going Undefeated and they probably will, never was a possibility Prior to ARRIVAL of THE RANDY MOSS, the GREAT.:)

Phil
12-02-2007, 07:25 AM
Why can't you give Moss the credit he deserves ? you have this strange flipped hatred for Moss, i don't get it. Just to prove my point, before Moss joined the patriots, they never EVER had a season like they are having this year. Sure they won super bowls, but blowing opponents by 30 points and going Undefeated and they probably will, never was a possibility Prior to ARRIVAL of THE RANDY MOSS, the GREAT.:)
Moss is lucky to have landed with a Super Bowl-caliber team. It's obvioius that he didn't "win games" for his previous teams, regardless of his numbers. As somone else wrote, most teams wouldn't even take him after last season. He was damaged goods until he got with the right coach and the right QB.

What is the difference if the pats are setting records for points this season...the best end result they can achieve will not eclipse what they've already done in past seasons-i.e. winning three Bowls.

Moss is just a bunch of pretty numbers now...BTW, I don't "hate" him (I have no reason to "hate" some professional jock). I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Fedace
12-02-2007, 07:30 AM
^^^You say most team would not even take him after last season ? I don't know which news you were watching but practically every single NFL teams were after randy Moss. Actually, Moss was the one that refused to go to the Loser teams and chose the Patriots cause they had the best chance to win the super bowl. Randy Moss chose the Pats and pats were Lucky to get him.

Phil
12-02-2007, 07:42 AM
Sounds to me like Moss was desperate to win some hardware. The Pats have won plenty without him. He hasn't won anything without them. Seems like you're trying to say otherwise, which strains logic...not to mention the truth.

alcap26
12-02-2007, 07:53 AM
Ronnie Lott would have made Randy cry like a little school boy lost in the supermarket.

Amen..no other defensive back could lay the wood like Ronnie Lott. He would have broken Randy Moss in two.

Fedace
12-02-2007, 08:07 AM
Amen..no other defensive back could lay the wood like Ronnie Lott. He would have broken Randy Moss in two.

Ronnie Lott would be about 40 yards behind Randy Moss as he runs in for the touchdown and do the celebration dance and ate Lunch.

Connelly
12-02-2007, 08:13 AM
lol i was reading this post and the arguing was pretty funny..just a question who thats posted on this thread plays/played football (and i mean on a real team not with your friends infront of your house) it is really hard to understand football if you havent played at a full contact level and didnt warm the bench.

tennis-n-sc
12-02-2007, 11:55 AM
Deion Sanders was the best ever "pure cover" DB in the NFL. Randy Moss is one of the best receivers in history. Unfortunately for Sanders, a great QB/great receiver combo will beat a great DB most of the time. Back in the '90s, I remember the Aikman-to-Irvin combo would just eat Sanders up before he joined the Cowboys.
Also, there's no way that Ronnie Lott could have covered Moss, Rice, or any other good NFL receiver one on one - he was a safety, not a cornerback. But he could HIT!! LOL!

If you were Randy Moss, who would you rather have in the defensive backfield, Lott or Sanders? I wouldn't care to meet Lott in church, much less going over the middle 20 yards deep. :twisted:

10sfreak
12-02-2007, 12:10 PM
I would want BOTH of them back there - Lott trying to cover me, and Sanders laying the hit to me...LOL!

tbini87
12-02-2007, 12:42 PM
lol i was reading this post and the arguing was pretty funny..just a question who thats posted on this thread plays/played football (and i mean on a real team not with your friends infront of your house) it is really hard to understand football if you havent played at a full contact level and didnt warm the bench.

i have had plenty of playing experience, and luckily never warmed the bench! i was also lucky enough to be the offensive coordinator this year for my frosh football team. however, i don't think you have to have played the game to have valid points in a debate like this. but i do think that playing experience helps, and really helps you enjoy the talent that some of the guys have.

tzinc
12-02-2007, 12:54 PM
I have followed Moss for all his career so I know what I am talking about.

1) Brady WON SBs in the past - past tense - obviously Belicheck didn't think he could WIN a SB without Moss in the future or he wouldn't have brought him in. Belicheck thinks Brady and the Pats NEED Moss to win a SB. He doesn't bring him in if he feels he can win a SB WITHOUT Moss.

2) Moss made the deal to the Pats go through - he chose them - because he had to agree to a 6 or 7 million dollar PAYCUT to come to the Pats. Why did he pick them? Because he knows Belicheck is a good coach who will use him properly and if he's used properly he will get wins for a team. And make that team a SB contender. Other teams not wanting him doesn't matter because Belicheck is a genius him wanting Moss says more then a bunch of dumb loser coaches not wanting him. LOL. Moss was lied to, misused and injured in OAK

3) Moss never takes it easy he has always played his guts out when the team he was with was telling him the truth. Like I said he's behind a 15 win MIN team that set the ALL TIME scoring record. After Green left another smart coach who knew how to use Moss - Moss' teams still almost always contended for the playoffs and were top 5 in scoring. Those MIN teams were not that good Moss made them better. And it was Moss because as we have seen once Moss left MIN has gone into the dumper. And it was NOT Daunte because Daunte has done nothing since Moss left him. Daunte went from PRO BOWL QB year after year to NFL journeyman in the prime of his career WHY? Moss simply Moss. Moss makes the players around him better Stallworth and Welker WERE NEVER this good - if they were this good they wouldn't have been available to the Pats. Moss makes the WRs, QBs, TEs, RBs, all better. One year MIN lead the NFL in rushing with Bennett as their RB why? Moss he cleared out the box and even a no-name RB like Bennett did well.

4) FYI everything Rice could do Moss can do but Moss can do things Rice could not. Moss is faster then Rice and he can leap higher then Rice and has made more highlight real catches then Rice. The best sideline tip toe reciever in the NFL ever was Cris Carter and he tought Moss had to do it. Watch a highlight reel of Moss on youtube you will see dozens of incredible how did he do that catches including sideline tip toe catches then Rice ever had. The only thing that Rice has on Moss is he could break a tackle better. I'll take Moss' unique skills over that 1 skill that Rice had ANY DAY! It's not that important.

5) If you're a football fan I will explain what Moss does to make a team better. He requires 2 or 3 men on him every play. Right there there is an imbalance especially when 3 men are put on him. He clears the box to prevent run stuffing the S has to play back. That means your run game just got better. Next because of his speed when he drives deep that means there are not enough men to cover the short and intermediate field. That means little passes to Welker, the TE, the RB out of the backfield will almost always be open. Moss is automatic in the endzone from the redzone. Throw it to him 3 times he will catch at least 1 for a TD. Moss can also catch the ball even when 2 or 3 men are covering him. So not only do you have the other recievers, TEs, RBs available for short to medium receptions you have Moss WHO WILL STILL CATCH THE BALL DEEP when covered.

This is why Brady and the Pats are setting records - there is no way to defend what Moss does on a field because it's what he does for the other players that makes a difference.


6) We call all agree Belicheck is a genius responsible for 3 SB wins well he needed Moss. That tells you all you need to know about Moss.

Fedace
12-02-2007, 01:13 PM
^^^ WOW, do you also know what Moss ate for breakfast this am ?? and who is Moss's newest squeeze ?? Does Moss like black women or white women ?? LOL.. just kidding.

andfor
12-02-2007, 01:28 PM
Laver would beat Federer if they where each playing with wood racquets and wearing converse tennis shoes on grass............ooops wrong thread.

tzinc
12-02-2007, 01:45 PM
^^^ WOW, do you also know what Moss ate for breakfast this am ?? and who is Moss's newest squeeze ?? Does Moss like black women or white women ?? LOL.. just kidding.

LOL! Moss is my favourite player and I followed him on whatever team he was on so I know a bit about him.

lethalfang
12-02-2007, 03:00 PM
I have followed Moss for all his career so I know what I am talking about.

1) Brady WON SBs in the past - past tense - obviously Belicheck didn't think he could WIN a SB without Moss in the future or he wouldn't have brought him in. Belicheck thinks Brady and the Pats NEED Moss to win a SB. He doesn't bring him in if he feels he can win a SB WITHOUT Moss.



Inaccurate.
Belichick brought in Randy Moss because Randy Moss was the best available receiver on the market with the least cost, e.g. only a 4th round pick. The deal simply presents Belichick with the best value.
According to your logic, however, every backup Belichick brings in is a backup Belichick NEEDS to win a superbowl. That is not necessarily true.
Every football transaction is designed to improve the franchise, sometimes the improvement is wished to be immediate, sometimes the improvement is wished upon for the future, e.g. when a team trades away an aging star for draft picks.

Noveson
12-02-2007, 03:05 PM
A great offense ALWAYS beats a great defense. This is true with most sports(except baseball). If Brady had a good line, and wasn't getting pressure, Sanders would have no chance at Moss. He's just too fast, tall, and athletic for one man to defend with no help.

krz
12-02-2007, 03:47 PM
lol Moss is scared to take a hit and Sanders is scared to give hits... :P

1 on 1 for the whole game, I think Moss torches Prime Time.

as for the Rice vs Moss thing. Moss is probably the best vertical play receiver the games seen, hes just got so much speed and jumping ability. But thats it, watch his games this season hes STILL scared to go over the middle, and still scared to get hit. Rice is a much better all around reciever.

jhhachamp
12-02-2007, 04:28 PM
You cannot judge individual players on Super Bowl trophys, that is not a fair assessment. Many Great players have never won super bowls. It is just a matter of being on a great team. Tom Braday was LUCKY enough to be on a great team with great coach, Patriots. while Randy moss was Unlucky and had been on a Terrible teams in the past. So you don't really know what you are saying

Actually, everything Phil said made perfect sense. You may be right that you cannot judge a player solely on super bowl rings, but Brady wasn't just lucky to be where he was. He made that team great.

Tennis-Chris
12-02-2007, 04:56 PM
Deion Sanders would be left holding Moss's jock strap as he was many receivers. This link will take you to the NFL record books and guess whose name is absent from the all-time interception leaders category? Neon Deion.

Interceptions

http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/ints

Additionally there were many greats in the past who had a greater impact than Deion to include Herb Adderly, Mel Blount, Rod Woodson and Champ Bailey just to name a few.

In a 14 year career Deion had 39 tackles. In 9 years Bailey has over 475. Want to talk passes defended - Deion 5 Bailey 81.

INT's - Deion 53 Bailey 43. Bailey averages 4.7/year and Deion 3.7. Bailey is still going strong.

How about Rod Woodson - 71 career picks and 21 passes defended. He played three years longer than Deion. Woodson also had 207 career tackles.

Against Deion all you had to do was complete the pass because you knew he wasn't going to tackle anyone. Nor was he going to defend the pass.

Moss and countless other receivers would and did scorch neon Deion.:mrgreen:

lethalfang
12-02-2007, 08:43 PM
Deion Sanders would be left holding Moss's jock strap as he was many receivers. This link will take you to the NFL record books and guess whose name is absent from the all-time interception leaders category? Neon Deion.

Interceptions

http://www.nfl.com/history/randf/records/indiv/ints

Additionally there were many greats in the past who had a greater impact than Deion to include Herb Adderly, Mel Blount, Rod Woodson and Champ Bailey just to name a few.

In a 14 year career Deion had 39 tackles. In 9 years Bailey has over 475. Want to talk passes defended - Deion 5 Bailey 81.

INT's - Deion 53 Bailey 43. Bailey averages 4.7/year and Deion 3.7. Bailey is still going strong.

How about Rod Woodson - 71 career picks and 21 passes defended. He played three years longer than Deion. Woodson also had 207 career tackles.

Against Deion all you had to do was complete the pass because you knew he wasn't going to tackle anyone. Nor was he going to defend the pass.

Moss and countless other receivers would and did scorch neon Deion.:mrgreen:

It doesn't work this way.
Have you actually watched any football in the 90's? Ask any QBs and WRs who have played in Sanders' era. Most of the time, the QB simply does not look at the direction Sanders is.
Bailey will likely be a HOF cornerback, but he is not in the same league as Deion Sanders' coverage abilities.

Tennis-Chris
12-02-2007, 09:08 PM
It doesn't work this way.
Have you actually watched any football in the 90's? Ask any QBs and WRs who have played in Sanders' era. Most of the time, the QB simply does not look at the direction Sanders is.
Bailey will likely be a HOF cornerback, but he is not in the same league as Deion Sanders' coverage abilities.

I did watch football in the 90's and prior to posting my comments I did call and ask Steve Young, Brett Favre and even Danny Wuerffel. Wuerffel wanted to spend more time talking about his National Championship but still a nice guy. Really great guys, I tell you.

Neon was great at self promotion and then getting the announcers to promote him. I'm not going to dispute how good he was - Deion was a top shelf CB who I would definitely want on my team but he is not among the greatest in the game and Moss would eat his lunch playing catch with Brady.

Not that any of this dialogue matters - woulda shoulda coulda. We'll never see the match up.:mrgreen:

tricky
12-02-2007, 11:04 PM
but Brady wasn't just lucky to be where he was. He made that team great.

As much as I like Brady, the Pats really are about everybody. Is Brady that great? Oh hell yeah -- you look at what Peyton Manning is putting up with right now, and well that's the level of talent and experience Brady has had for about 75% of his career. BUT, the Pats are just so together as a team -- their general mangement, coaching staff, veteran talent, ability to put rookies into playmaking situations, etc.. The only comparable team I can think of in this era are the San Antonio Spurs.

I think, with the Pats run-and-shoot, Moss takes away the ability for teams to blitz. Because they know that if Brady picks it up, then any given play could be a touchdown for the Pats. At least, the respect you have to give Moss consistently creates massive space in the middle for Brady to shoot passes to Walker or Stallworth. If the safety bites, you're screwed. If the safety stays back, Moss eventually breaks free and then it's another 45 yard play.

Even in the Eagles game, the Eagles were exposing massive gaps open that the Pats didn't take advantage of. If they had a decent running game, that RB could have easily gone for 100+

CanadianChic
12-02-2007, 11:09 PM
Oh no...is this another gross foolsball thread? Go Stillers!!! Yeah, carry on..... :shock:

Phil
12-03-2007, 12:13 AM
Oh no...is this another gross foolsball thread? Go Stillers!!! Yeah, carry on..... :shock:
Okay, I was gonna say something, but you redeemed yourself beautifully in your second, exclamation-filled, sentence;-)


http://static.flickr.com/88/239575042_e3ca83aabd.jpg

CanadianChic
12-03-2007, 12:56 AM
Okay, I was gonna say something, but you redeemed yourself beautifully in your second, exclamation-filled, sentence;-)


http://static.flickr.com/88/239575042_e3ca83aabd.jpg

Hehe. I can't help myself sometimes, but I do know my limits. :-|

tzinc
12-03-2007, 01:45 AM
As much as I like Brady, the Pats really are about everybody. Is Brady that great? Oh hell yeah -- you look at what Peyton Manning is putting up with right now, and well that's the level of talent and experience Brady has had for about 75% of his career. BUT, the Pats are just so together as a team -- their general mangement, coaching staff, veteran talent, ability to put rookies into playmaking situations, etc.. The only comparable team I can think of in this era are the San Antonio Spurs.

I think, with the Pats run-and-shoot, Moss takes away the ability for teams to blitz. Because they know that if Brady picks it up, then any given play could be a touchdown for the Pats. At least, the respect you have to give Moss consistently creates massive space in the middle for Brady to shoot passes to Walker or Stallworth. If the safety bites, you're screwed. If the safety stays back, Moss eventually breaks free and then it's another 45 yard play.

Even in the Eagles game, the Eagles were exposing massive gaps open that the Pats didn't take advantage of. If they had a decent running game, that RB could have easily gone for 100+

If you watched the Eagles game Brady missed Welker on several passes where he was open thanks to Moss. Normally they make those passes and normally they blow out the opposing team. Whatever is wrong with Maroney is hurting the team if they had a halfway decent runner they'd be bashing through the opposing team - you cannot put 8 in the box when Moss is out there.

tennis-n-sc
12-03-2007, 04:21 AM
I would want BOTH of them back there - Lott trying to cover me, and Sanders laying the hit to me...LOL!

You got that right!:) Sanders was a great athlete and a great cover corner, just not the best. It was laughable watching him try to tackle. Unfortunately for Mr. Sanders, corners have to defend the run and ususally make some attempt to bring down the ball carrier or take on the block. Even the announcers would be laughing. :)

Dedans Penthouse
12-03-2007, 02:25 PM
(the elegant) Herb Adderlay (one of only 3 players to WIN 6 World Championships--nearly 50 'picks'); AVERAGE "return" of an interception: 21 yards (granted, neon's return yds. were around 26 but he was a returner/cover-guy....not the complete "I'll take your head off" package), i.e......don't "go" (throw) there.....QB....

Night Train Lane (maybe the most feared...greatest?)

Lem Barney

Lester THE MOLESTER Haynes

Mike Woodson (in his prime--acknowledging Moss' talents--) would physically be "right there" with Randy on any given Sunday. The 2nd comming of "Herb." Smooth...and also had the size/skills to one-on-one shut anyone down.

Darrel Green (tough lil' sum-of-a-stich....undersized.....Deon-esque speed), i.e. could "take it the other way."

THAT SAID:
Aside from the 'above'..... are we maybe leaving a few "others" out ?.......

Dedans Penthouse
12-03-2007, 03:01 PM
Brain cramp:

Subtstitute ROD Woodson (later became a "safety");

insert: MIKE HAYNES.

IMO, could (physically) "hang" with Randy Moss. Size/speed/smooooth....

andfor
12-03-2007, 08:06 PM
What happened to the great Moss when that pass just hit him in the hands in the endzone? Looked to me like he had paddles taped to his hands.

latinking
12-03-2007, 09:04 PM
Moss is an amazing athlete, and wideout, but Rice played when defensive backs could be all over you in coverage. In todays game if a DB looks at you too hard its called pass interfence. The league changed that rule to make the game more offensive and exicting to watch.

It really make you appreciate what Rice was able to do.

srvsfender
07-22-2008, 04:09 PM
It is reported that Randy Moss was clocked 4.25 for a 40-yard dash. Deon Sanders had reportedly run a 4.23.

It's difficult to compare stopwatch speeds taken at very different time and location, as sprinters will tell you.

The way Deon Sanders covers the WRs is reminiscent of how Willie Mays runs the bases.
It's been said that Willie Mays, when he runs from 1st to 3rd, would intentionally go slower than he can in order to bait the outfielder to throw to the 3rd baseman, so that if he makes a throwing error Mays will score.
Deon Sanders sometimes intentionally leave the WR slightly open, in order to bait the QB to throw his direction, so that he can pick it off.

From Wikpedia...During his 14-year NFL career, Sanders was a perennial All-Pro and one of the most feared pass defenders to ever play the game. He ran a 4.18 in the 40 yard dash making him the second fastest in the NFL to Derek A. Stroud, who ran a 4.12. At the height of his career

Fedace
07-22-2008, 04:12 PM
At this point, i just wonder if Randy will make trouble for the Patriots next season. they are trying for the Revenge Win Superbowl. they are still smarting from the beating they took from the Lowly Giants.

Mark Vessels
07-23-2008, 07:34 PM
Well don't lose your respect for me yet, Fedace. Hear me out.
[B]THREE Super Bowl rings to prove it...and all of those were won WITHOUT Moss.
Well, did the Patriots have the genius coaching of Bill Belichick? Or how about the dynasty's dynamic linebacking corps of Tedy Bruschi, Roosevelt Colvin, Mike Vrabel (very intelligent), Larry Izzo, and many others.


A quarterback does not win Super Bowls, it's just his job to get it to his recievers.

You maybe thinking that I am totally underestimating the value of a quarterback but it just comes down to too many factors: arm strength, pass accuracy, pocket presence, pocket footwork, scrambling, etc.

The key to great quarterbacking is the recievers making you look good.

d-quik
11-29-2008, 02:08 AM
OMFG WHERE DO I ****ING STARTpossibly the best wide receiver the game has ever seen.do the names jerry rice, don hutson, anquan boldin, cris carter mean anything to you? let me just tell you this, there are only three routes that moss can run: the fade/corner, the streak, and the double move. sure, he runs those routes effectively but what happens when his quarterback is having crappy protection problems?

the area where moss excels at are only evident when HIS QUARTERBACK IS WELL PROTECTED. aka, he needs TIME to develope his routes - a lot of time.

moss is also extremely useless on run plays - can not block

don hutson - most consecutive seasons as the league's leader for receptions

anquan boldin - does everything moss can do PLUS he is bigger, can block, can work the middle of the field, and is THE best receiver when the ball is in the air (plaxico burress and randy moss are also good when the ball is in the air but anquan just ATTACKS that ball like a hungry cat pouncing on its meal)

jerry rice - had the best hands, never was the fastest (4.8 40 yd dash) but could always get seperation, did not need a whole century for him to get open as he worked with the quick 3-step drops and short passes, just overall better

cris carter - randy moss + more speed - the height. best...vertical...threat...ever.

so you see, in terms of game-breaking highlight-reel making TD catches, randy moss is a constant threat. but if one aspect of the offence is not clicking (did you see what happened in oakland?) randy moss's effectiveness is a failure. so unless i have a very well-oiled offensive machine (ala 2000s NEP and early 2000s MIN), i would GLADYLY take a hines ward or TJ houschmanzedeh (can deliver devastating blocks, and catch the short passes over the middle and actually hold on when getting hit) or andre johnson (performs like a hall of famer even on crappy offences)Who do you think is the common denominator from the Pats first SB win to now?what about the highly disciplined belichik defence that NEVER gets caught out of position? what about an underrated offensive line has the same unwaivering discipline in pass protection? what about the play-calling of their offensive co-ordinator? or adam vinatieri's clutch kicking?

so yes the pats success is "largely due" to moss, and also "largely due" to all those other factors i mentioned. don't act shocked like you are on the electric chair when you hear moss is a large factor.You don't seem to understand that a receiver, no matter how good, is made better by his QB.i do not know whether or not he understands or not but a quarterback can also be made better by his wide receiver. this is not a one-sided relationship. please read about andre johnson, thanks.I got news for you: that's how ALL QB's and WR's operate in the pros, not just Moss.Please read about west coast offence to realize that when you have a tall receiver, "throwing the ball in the general direction up high" is a much larger factor than when you are working with short timing routes. thats my news for you, and yours wasn't really news but rather an exagerration.He was a GREAT deep cover man-I'm not denying that, but the "Best Ever"...no way.really? uhhh, sure he was incomplete but his complete singularity domination of coverage is more than enough to say that he is the best. as a defensive co-ordinator it makes your job SUPER EASY, as you can commit to coverage of other players and stopping the run. you simply could not do that with those other (also great) defensive backs. i, myself love complete players as well, but deon`s utter domination of one aspect of the game was just.... dominating - unstoppable.

the only route that he could not defend was the double move (but as a defensive co-ordinator, getting burned by a double move clearly is the fault of a slow pass rush so thats hardly a problem for deon)

and yes, letting deon run away on running plays is also no problem considering that you pretty much have the safety over the top roaming about like a free radical. problem solved. next.Those guys you mentioned couldn't cover 1/2 of the football field like Deon could. and if Deon Sanders was afraid to make a hit, then that means Moss would run all over Deon, which i cannot believe. Since only way to stop Moss is to jam him at the line and get in his face. once he is past you, you can forget about it. Moss just tells brady to throw it as far as he can, and he will go get it.you wouldn`t have to believe it because it would not happen. deon sanders' speed in the 1990s was always in the top 2. so even if he gets "burned" (LOL, i had to laugh typing that) at the line of scrimmage he is still able to recover.

and no moss can not "just" tell brady to "throw it as far as he can" because AS I SAID, deon's abilities allow for the safety over the top to become a free radical. this can ONLY mean that the safety will pick up a route-runner on offence (either an extra TE, SB, or RB) that normally a linebacker would be assigned to, send that now "freed" linebacker for added pressure, and this deep route to moss would simply NEVER DEVELOPE, EVER.

both of you guys do not seem to get the concept that this is a team sport. i also get the feeling that non of you guys ever played organized football either (but i could be wrong).Brady could play with Div. II college receivers and somehow find a way to win. Three rings, buddy. Three. How many rings does Moss have? Oh, wait...he played for the Vikings most of his career. Nevermind.Brady could play with Div. II college pass protection but HOF wide receivers and somehow find a way to win... wait... wait no that doesn't work. no brady is a player that needs a century to release the ball, craps his pants under pressure. how many rings does matt light have? oh wait he bookended brady's success without any credit, but still has three rings. again, it is a team sport. even the pats quarterbacks coach's report about the now injured starting quarterback says "slow to make reads, slow in the pocket, slow release". why do you think they hired the best offensive line coach in the league? to stifle this problem. why do you think matt cassel is still winning games, did something brady could not (two consecutive 400+ yard games), despite losing moroney, adalius thomas, and donte stallworth? THE OFFENSIVE LINE ALSO GIVES CASSEL AN ETERNITY TO THROW THE BALL.

TEAM SPORT

so sick and tired of casual fans sucking the quarterback's ****. god.Ok, Jerry Rice has more records, i will admit that. However, Rice was never a physical phenomonen. Moss on the other hand, is one of the fastest, and longest reach with arm in NFL history. Look at some of the one handed impossible catches he makes, Rice could never do that.uhhh, thats like saying federer was never a "physical phenomenon", hewitt was faster, richard krajicek had a longer reach, and look at the under the legs shots yannick noah made!!!

^^^ COMPLETE HORSE DUNG

its not all about pure athleticism and flash. you are clearly a casual fan. athletics makes the highlight reel. consistency wins championships. some players do it with athleticism (sampras, moss), some do it with technique (connors, rice), some do it with finesse (federer, harrison), and some do it with hard work/consistency (lendl, ward). it never takes away from their greatness if you really understand the sport

oh god 86 posts i already can not bare to continue. my blood pressure has already trippled. good night. i hate casual fans

10sfreak
11-29-2008, 11:06 AM
d-quick, calm down there, bud! You're gonna burst a blood vessel. And for what it's worth, I agree with your post. American football is a team sport, maybe more so than any other. For success, it takes all cylinders firing, both on offense and defense.

Phil
11-30-2008, 01:47 AM
what about the highly disciplined belichik defence that NEVER gets caught out of position?
Yes, that was also a factor in the Pats's success, but I didn't feel the need to go into every aspect of the team as the discussion (which I believe is around TWO YEARS old-you're late, where were you?) centered on Sanders and Moss.
what about an underrated offensive line has the same unwaivering discipline in pass protection? what about the play-calling of their offensive co-ordinator? or adam vinatieri's clutch kicking?
Again, all good, football is a team sport, blah, blah, blah.

so yes the pats success is "largely due" to moss, and also "largely due" to all those other factors i mentioned. don't act shocked like you are on the electric chair when you hear moss is a large factor.
Again, I ask you...how many RINGS does Moss have? The Pats won with "lesser" receivers. Won it ALL.
i do not know whether or not he understands or not but a quarterback can also be made better by his wide receiver. this is not a one-sided relationship. please read about andre johnson, thanks.
Generally, a Super Bowl winning team has a great QB. Not a QB that was made to look better by his receivers. Please read about Peyton Manning, thanks. Bart Starr. Thanks. Etc., etc.
sure he was incomplete but his complete singularity domination of coverage is more than enough to say that he is the best. as a defensive co-ordinator it makes your job SUPER EASY, as you can commit to coverage of other players and stopping the run. you simply could not do that with those other (also great) defensive backs. i, myself love complete players as well, but deon`s utter domination of one aspect of the game was just.... dominating - unstoppable.
I like complete players and as football players go, a guy who's afraid of contact would not be an all-time great, in my book, despite his domination of one aspct of his position.

and yes, letting deon run away on running plays is also no problem considering that you pretty much have the safety over the top roaming about like a free radical. problem solved.
Not necessarily solved. A guy who's afraid to hit is a weak spot on the field, even if he is great on pass coverage.

next.you wouldn`t have to believe it because it would not happen. deon sanders' speed in the 1990s was always in the top 2. so even if he gets "burned" (LOL, i had to laugh typing that) at the line of scrimmage he is still able to recover.
Maybe. Maybe not.

and no moss can not "just" tell brady to "throw it as far as he can" because AS I SAID, deon's abilities allow for the safety over the top to become a free radical. this can ONLY mean that the safety will pick up a route-runner on offence (either an extra TE, SB, or RB) that normally a linebacker would be assigned to, send that now "freed" linebacker for added pressure, and this deep route to moss would simply NEVER DEVELOPE, EVER.
None of this makes your "case", whatever that may be.

both of you guys do not seem to get the concept that this is a team sport. i also get the feeling that non of you guys ever played organized football either (but i could be wrong).
Yes, you are wrong on this (among other things). Also, yes, I know football is a team sport, as already mentioned, blah, blah, blah.
Brady could play with Div. II college pass protection but HOF wide receivers and somehow find a way to win... wait... wait no that doesn't work. no brady is a player that needs a century to release the ball, craps his pants under pressure. how many rings does matt light have? oh wait he bookended brady's success without any credit, but still has three rings.
A great QB needs a great OL, but Matt Light would not have three rings if he played, however well, with another QB like, say, McNabb or Carston Palmer. You're saying a three-Super Bowl QB craps under pressure? How ridiculous is that? He's a big game player and he's proven it. I'm actually NOT a Brady or Pats "fan", but jeezuz...such a moronic statement needs to be corrected.
why do you think matt cassel is still winning games, did something brady could not (two consecutive 400+ yard games), despite losing moroney, adalius thomas, and donte stallworth? THE OFFENSIVE LINE ALSO GIVES CASSEL AN ETERNITY TO THROW THE BALL.
The Pats aren't JUST Brady. They aren't going to go from being a Super Bowl team to a last place one. They have a very strong and balanced team. But then again, without Brady, they WILL go from being a Super Bowl team to a non-Super Bowl team. Wanna bet against me? It's not exactly brain surgery (for me, at least).
so sick and tired of casual fans sucking the quarterback's ****. god.uhhh, thats like saying federer was never a "physical phenomenon", hewitt was faster, richard krajicek had a longer reach, and look at the under the legs shots yannick noah made!!!
Now you're just babbling without making any sense-not that you made much more above...
its not all about pure athleticism and flash.
Who said that it was. If it WERE, then teams would be lining up to entice Ussain Bolt to jump to the NFL. They aren't.
you are clearly a casual fan.
Oooh...I'm so hurt by that!
oh god 86 posts i already can not bare to continue. my blood pressure has already trippled. good night. i hate casual fans
Then why did you revive this thread and post such nonsense? You're not as knowledgable as you think. Maybe you have an inferiority complex-not quite up to us casual fans in discussing this important matter, eh?

d-quik
11-30-2008, 04:20 AM
Yes, that was also a factor in the Pats's success, but I didn't feel the need to go into every aspect of the team as the discussion (which I believe is around TWO YEARS old-you're late, where were you?) centered on Sanders and Moss.you did not feel like going into evey aspect of the team but just mentioned brady and how crap his recievers were and how brady was the largest factor in those super bowls. of course. you only reaffirmed what i said in that you didn't feel the need.Again, I ask you...how many RINGS does Moss have? The Pats won with "lesser" receivers. Won it ALL.me: the success of the patriots depends on the team
your question: how many rings does moss have?
your statement: the patriots won with lesser receivers

uhhh, a team being succesful has nothing to do with how many rings moss has.Generally, a Super Bowl winning team has a great QB. Not a QB that was made to look better by his receivers. Please read about Peyton Manning, thanks. Bart Starr. Thanks. Etc., etc.me: there are wide receivers that can help a quarterback do better just as there are qbs that make wrs better
you: superbowl teams have a good qb, not a qb made better by wr

i never said super bowl teams do NOT have a good qb, why did you even brin this up.I like complete players and as football players go, a guy who's afraid of contact would not be an all-time great, in my book, despite his domination of one aspct of his position.so barry sanders, who was not as effective running inside as he was outside, is not complete, and is not "an all-time great"? and you call me a moron? deon sanders isn't an "all-time great" even though he was not an amazing tackler but covered half of the field? and you call me a moron?Not necessarily solved. A guy who's afraid to hit is a weak spot on the field, even if he is great on pass coverage.explain how having an extra roaming safety creates a weak side of the field? has dallas ever struggled because teams kept pounding the ball towards sanders' side because it was such a weak spot on the field? no, the answer is simply no, teams did not. the roaming safety MORE than solved that problem.Maybe. Maybe not.this is not a case of maybe, it is a case of deon sanders having the best recovery rate on small slip-ups in coverage. its not "maybe, maybe not", its just no. and if you are still adamant on the "maybe" please provide an example where sanders got "burned" at the line of scrimmage. good luck on finding an example.None of this makes your "case", whatever that may be.um, what part do you not understand?Yes, you are wrong on this (among other things). Also, yes, I know football is a team sport, as already mentioned, blah, blah, blah.what other things am i wrong about?A great QB needs a great OL, but Matt Light would not have three rings if he played, however well, with another QB like, say, McNabb or Carston Palmer. You're saying a three-Super Bowl QB craps under pressure? How ridiculous is that? He's a big game player and he's proven it. I'm actually NOT a Brady or Pats "fan", but jeezuz...such a moronic statement needs to be corrected.1. no a great QB does not need a great OL. a great QB will have teh ability to make the correct reads, have the quick release and/or mobility to not need extra time, and have the ability to work the underneath routes with ruthless efficiency under pressure.
2. yes i am saying the three-super bowl QB craps under PASS pressure. brady's quarterback says this as well. look at any game where he has been under a lot of pass rush, he literally craps his pants instead of finding the hot receiver. the giants-pats superbowl is the most glaring example.
3. its not ridiculous
4. hes a big game player and he has proven it.... when he has pass protection
5. again, another insult. thanks man. i don't know what i said hasn't been seen in games.The Pats aren't JUST Brady. They aren't going to go from being a Super Bowl team to a last place one. They have a very strong and balanced team. But then again, without Brady, they WILL go from being a Super Bowl team to a non-Super Bowl team. Wanna bet against me? It's not exactly brain surgery (for me, at least).i never said the pats are just brady, or that missing brady will reduce their super-bowl calibre team. i don't need brain surgery to know this, and i have never said this as well.Now you're just babbling without making any sense-not that you made much more above......it made no sense? it seems the poster above you made sense out of it. i know i am not crazy and people who really understand football made sense of it. if you realize what i said about physicality vs technique/finesse/hardwork is an analogy, it would make sense.Who said that it was. If it WERE, then teams would be lining up to entice Ussain Bolt to jump to the NFL. They aren't.fedace said so. and yes if it wwere then teams would be lining up to sign bolt. you are right. it was the point i was making, essentially, thanks for re-affirming it.Oooh...I'm so hurt by that!jeez i guess i should be more gentle, i didn't meant for it to hurtThen why did you revive this thread and post such nonsense? You're not as knowledgable as you think. Maybe you have an inferiority complex-not quite up to us casual fans in discussing this important matter, eh?1. i revived it out of anger
2. can you explain where the nosense came from?
3. another insult thanks
4. yet another one

andfor
11-30-2008, 05:12 AM
Feddie, stop using multiple aliases to try to bolster your weak case.

Dedans Penthouse
12-01-2008, 05:45 AM
At this point, i just wonder if Randy will make trouble for the Patriots next season. they are trying for the Revenge Win Superbowl. they are still smarting from the beating they took from the Lowly Giants.11-1 and with their Super Bowl winning TD catching "Randy Moss" receiver (Burris) not putting up the numbers for most of this year and now sitting out with injuries and legal trouble. No guarantee that they (or any other team) will win this year's Super Bowl--much football still to be played--but in the meantime, it does appear that maybe the the Jints weren't as lowly as the 'experts' painted them as being. That said....

wonder what would happen if Plexico Burris went up one-on-one against Wyatt Earp?

Phil
12-01-2008, 07:23 AM
you did not feel like going into evey aspect of the team but just mentioned brady and how crap his recievers were and how brady was the largest factor in those super bowls. of course. you only reaffirmed what i said in that you didn't feel the need.me: the success of the patriots depends on the team
That's right. No need. I'm not interested in term papers and besides, everyone knows that football is a "team" game. Enough with the cliches.

uhhh, a team being succesful has nothing to do with how many rings moss has.me: there are wide receivers that can help a quarterback do better just as there are qbs that make wrs better
you: superbowl teams have a good qb, not a qb made better by wr
This is nonsense. Learn how to use the quote function. I can't follow this.

i never said super bowl teams do NOT have a good qb, why did you even brin this up.so barry sanders, who was not as effective running inside as he was outside, is not complete, and is not "an all-time great"? and you call me a moron?
I did not call you a "moron". I said that your statement that Brady is a "choker" is moronic, considering his HALL OF FAME numbers and the big games he's won.
deon sanders isn't an "all-time great" even though he was not an amazing tackler but covered half of the field? and you call me a moron?explain how having an extra roaming safety creates a weak side of the field? has dallas ever struggled because teams kept pounding the ball towards sanders' side because it was such a weak spot on the field? no, the answer is simply no, teams did not. the roaming safety MORE than solved that problem.this is not a case of maybe, it is a case of deon sanders having the best recovery rate on small slip-ups in coverage. its not "maybe, maybe not", its just no. and if you are still adamant on the "maybe" please provide an example where sanders got "burned" at the line of scrimmage. good luck on finding an example.um, what part do you not understand?what other things am i wrong about?
He's a one-dimensional player. That's all I said. Geez, what's got your knickers in a twist? It's my opinion, spanky.

1. no a great QB does not need a great OL. a great QB will have teh ability to make the correct reads, have the quick release and/or mobility to not need extra time, and have the ability to work the underneath routes with ruthless efficiency under pressure.
A great QB will not stay one for long without a great OL. Teams with such QB's will draft high for OL's and build around the QB.
2. yes i am saying the three-super bowl QB craps under PASS pressure. brady's quarterback says this as well. look at any game where he has been under a lot of pass rush, he literally craps his pants instead of finding the hot receiver.
I won't even comment on this. Three Super Bowl wins out of four. Enough said.
the giants-pats superbowl is the most glaring example.
They cannot win them all.
3. its not ridiculous
Yes, it is. Obviously.
5. again, another insult. thanks man. i don't know what i said hasn't been seen in games.i never said the pats are just brady, or that missing brady will reduce their super-bowl calibre team. i don't need brain surgery to know this, and i have never said this as well....it made no sense? it seems the poster above you made sense out of it. i know i am not crazy and people who really understand football made sense of it. if you realize what i said about physicality vs technique/finesse/hardwork is an analogy, it would make sense.fedace said so. and yes if it wwere then teams would be lining up to sign bolt. you are right. it was the point i was making, essentially, thanks for re-affirming it.
I never made even brought up the issue of athleticism vs. technique or whatever you're babbling about here.
jeez i guess i should be more gentle, i didn't meant for it to hurt
Yes, be gentle with me, please.
1. i revived it out of anger
Maybe you are a moron, if this kind of stuff gets you "angry". Go feed the homeless or sumthin', 'cause this isn't something I take seriously. It's sports, ferchissakes.
4. yet another one[/quote]
Go wipe your nose, Jr. I'm through wit you. Oh, btw, the Bradyless Pats, with Moss, didn't do so well yesterday. Brady OWNED the Steelers (I'm sorry to say, for I BLEED Black & Gold). This kid? He looked like a high school second stringer. Brady means everything to that team.

d-quik
12-02-2008, 09:01 PM
hahaha thats okay man. i was angry before but now i am just laughing. keep masquerading as a source of knowledge with your "OMFG SUPERBOWL/RING" horse dung. what the public percieves isn't always right. look at your president for the past two terms

eli won the MVP but anyone with a head knew it should have been justin tuck.

you're all nonsense. bradyless pats, yeah. adalius thomasless, lawrence maroneyless, and donte stallworthless. i am glad you conceded though. you are the man.

Phil
12-02-2008, 09:16 PM
hahaha thats okay man. i was angry before but now i am just laughing. keep masquerading as a source of knowledge with your "OMFG SUPERBOWL/RING" horse dung. what the public percieves isn't always right. look at your president for the past two terms

eli won the MVP but anyone with a head knew it should have been justin tuck.

you're all nonsense. bradyless pats, yeah. adalius thomasless, lawrence maroneyless, and donte stallworthless. i am glad you conceded though. you are the man.
You are obviously not American (we don't spell "defense" with a "c") and are new to our National Game. And bringing up "your president" is pretty much all I need to see, to know that you have no response-clueless on this issue (which has nothing to do with "my" president).

But that's okay. You were schooled here and you can come away with a better understanding of the NFL big picture and, certainly, more humility. You are on your way to knowing something. Just...not...there...yet...

d-quik
12-04-2008, 07:18 PM
you can have all the knowledge in the world but lack of logical cohesion to establish connections between facts will make you fail, in your case.

edit: i really wonder if you honestly, deep down inside, actually feel and believe that you are right, and that i was "schooled".

jhhachamp
12-05-2008, 11:31 AM
you can have all the knowledge in the world but lack of logical cohesion to establish connections between facts will make you fail, in your case.

edit: i really wonder if you honestly, deep down inside, actually feel and believe that you are right, and that i was "schooled".

Well his arguments certainly made a lot more sense than yours, so I would say you were schooled.

atatu
12-05-2008, 09:37 PM
From Wikpedia...During his 14-year NFL career, Sanders was a perennial All-Pro and one of the most feared pass defenders to ever play the game. He ran a 4.18 in the 40 yard dash making him the second fastest in the NFL to Derek A. Stroud, who ran a 4.12. At the height of his career

But don't you think Darrell Green owned these guys ?... and he was barely 5 foot 8....

10sfreak
12-06-2008, 10:01 AM
What happened to the great Moss when that pass just hit him in the hands in the endzone? Looked to me like he had paddles taped to his hands.
Wow, how ironic, considering the date of this post! This exact same post, from a year ago, could have been posted the other day, almost on the exact date, 'cause Randy Moss dropped a TD pass in the endzone, and had several other bad drops in the game...

andfor
12-06-2008, 06:05 PM
Wow, how ironic, considering the date of this post! This exact same post, from a year ago, could have been posted the other day, almost on the exact date, 'cause Randy Moss dropped a TD pass in the endzone, and had several other bad drops in the game...

His dropping that pass allowed me to win my FF league. Not a big deal by any stretch. Although it may have happened as some point in his career I don't know of Jerry Rice ever dropping TD pass that was that easy. Randy Moss is very over-rated.

bluegrasser
12-08-2008, 03:47 PM
At this point, i just wonder if Randy will make trouble for the Patriots next season. they are trying for the Revenge Win Superbowl. they are still smarting from the beating they took from the Lowly Giants.

I picked them early on ( Pats) to return to the big dance, now I'd have them as a dark horse - their remaining schedule is pretty easy. Picking the AFC champs this year is tough, so many good teams going up and down. I'd say the Steelers, Colts, Titans all have a shot. The NFC points to the Giants & if the Vikes had a good QB, they'd be my dark horse.

d-quik
12-09-2008, 08:27 AM
Well his arguments certainly made a lot more sense than yours, so I would say you were schooled.everytime i make a point, i present a logical sequence of thoughts or a fact. everytime he disagrees, he either says "they won a championship" or insults me.

Phil
12-09-2008, 09:54 AM
everytime i make a point, i present a logical sequence of thoughts or a fact. everytime he disagrees, he either says "they won a championship" or insults me.
You need to grow a thicker skin. My "insults" are piddling-certainly not worth all the tears you've shed.

As for your points, you simply don't get the big picture. The goal of every NFL player who steps on to a playing field, is to win a championship. Everything comes down to that goal. And it is a difficult thing to do. So much so that most players and coaches leave the game without a ring. No one with even HALF a brain can criticize the nerve and competitive fire of a team leader-a QB-who has won three of those rings. You talk like you read stuff and, maybe, play a bit of Madden. You've tied yourself up in petty details. But you don't truly KNOW the game.

Steady Eddy
12-09-2008, 10:43 AM
You need to grow a thicker skin. My "insults" are piddling-certainly not worth all the tears you've shed.

As for your points, you simply don't get the big picture. The goal of every NFL player who steps on to a playing field, is to win a championship. Everything comes down to that goal. And it is a difficult thing to do. So much so that most players and coaches leave the game without a ring.
That's probably true for some players. I'm not sure if it is true for most. They play for money. Fans care about championships, I don't know if the players care about it. Probably not, they have more going on in their lives. Players will leave a good team who has championship potential for a crummy team who pays more. They get extra money for winning the super bowl, but if the difference in pay is higher to move to the lousy team, then economically it makes sense to change teams. And that's why they're pros. They are there for the money, not for team spirit.

No one with even HALF a brain can criticize the nerve and competitive fire of a team leader-a QB-who has won three of those rings. You talk like you read stuff and, maybe, play a bit of Madden. You've tied yourself up in petty details. But you don't truly KNOW the game.
True, since I only have a third of a brain, (what an operation that was!), I'll do it. This is like the question of who was a better center in the 60's, Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain? Some say that Chamberlain has better stats, but others point out that Russell won more championships. I think Chamberlain was better and that Russell was good, but he was lucky to play on a better team. Now I can't prove that, but it's too simplistic to argue that the QB that wins the most championships is better. There's alot of other players on a team than the QB. Some QBs are luck to be on a good team, and others are unlucky.

soyizgood
12-09-2008, 11:15 AM
and since when did this turn into who is better Moss or Rice? I was trying to get at the question, Can Best Deon Sanders cover Randy Moss one on one ?

Off topic, but Jerry Rice is the undisputed GOAT for WRs and the standard the modern greats patterned themselves after. He practically re-invented the fitness regiment for wideouts and arguably defensive backs just so they could keep up. How many receivers begged and continue to beg to wear #80 once they got to the NFL?

Marvin Harrison, Tory Holt, Antonio Freeman, Terrell Owens, Michael Irvin, Steve Largent, and a horde of other greats I'd take on my team before Moss.

As for DBs, Darrell Green was frustrating receivers at 38. He ran as fast at that age as he did when he was on the '84 Olympic track team. Unbelievable! I loved watching Deion (he did wonders for the '94 49er squad), but he had the tendency to either force the receiver to go outside (how he got many of his INTs) or lay off the receiver if the WR ran inside on a slant.

Phil
12-10-2008, 02:48 AM
That's probably true for some players. I'm not sure if it is true for most. They play for money. Fans care about championships, I don't know if the players care about it. Probably not, they have more going on in their lives. Players will leave a good team who has championship potential for a crummy team who pays more. They get extra money for winning the super bowl, but if the difference in pay is higher to move to the lousy team, then economically it makes sense to change teams. And that's why they're pros. They are there for the money, not for team spirit.
I would disagree. Once those guys get on the field, with signed contracts (of course), they want to win. I don't think money has totally drained the competitive spirit of these athletes. Jerry Rice, Terry Bradshaw, Emmet Smith...they all had as much money as they were ever going to need, and yet they continued to play for the gold. It wasn't for the money.

True, since I only have a third of a brain, (what an operation that was!), I'll do it. This is like the question of who was a better center in the 60's, Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain? Some say that Chamberlain has better stats, but others point out that Russell won more championships. I think Chamberlain was better and that Russell was good, but he was lucky to play on a better team. Now I can't prove that, but it's too simplistic to argue that the QB that wins the most championships is better. There's alot of other players on a team than the QB. Some QBs are luck to be on a good team, and others are unlucky.
Maybe you need to go back and read the posts on this thread. I never said that Brady is the best QB out there, solely because he wins championships. The geeky guy, d-quik, argued that Brady's a choker. I contend that no "choker" wins three Super Bowls. That said, however, there aren't many modern QB's in Brady's league. Other QB's have had better stats than his, but there are intangibles that make a QB a winner, such as leadership ability.

You, like d-quik, may be missing the big picture here. As for the the Russell v. Chamberlain question, I have no idea who was better. One was a defensive specialist and the other, an offensive force of nature. But I guarantee you that Russell wouldn't even consider trading his collection of championship hardware for Chamberlain's gaudy offensive statistics. It's about more than money when players reach a certain level.

d-quik
12-19-2008, 02:57 PM
i never said brady was a choker, the only thing i have said against brady was that he was too damn slow. i also did not shed any tears

this is just what i am talking about. you just made this up.

jhhachamp
12-20-2008, 10:14 AM
i never said brady was a choker, the only thing i have said against brady was that he was too damn slow. i also did not shed any tears

this is just what i am talking about. you just made this up.

Dude, cut your losses.

d-quik
12-23-2008, 09:57 AM
yeah keep telling yourself that