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federerfanatic
12-01-2007, 07:14 PM
These are my 20 greatest men and women players in history in order from best to 20th best. Feel free to make your own lists:

Men:

1- Rod Laver
2- Pancho Gonzalez
3- Ken Rosewall
4- Pete Sampras
5- Bjorn Borg
6- Bill Tilden
7- Don Budge
8- Roger Federer
9- Jimmy Connors
10- Ivan Lendl
11- John McEnroe
12- Jack Kramer
13-Fred Perry
14- Andre Agassi
15- John Newcombe
16- Henri Cochet
17- Rene LaCoste
18- Jack Crawford
19- Frank Sedgeman
20- Lew Hoad

Women:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Chris Evert
4. Margaret Court
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Helen Wills Moody
8. Billie Jean King
9. Monica Seles
10. Serena Williams
11. Justine Henin
12. Maria Bueno
13. Venus Williams
14. Evonne Goolagong
15. Alice Marble
16. Louise Brough
17. Margaret Osborne DuPont
18. Doris Hart
19. Althea Gibson
20. Molla Mallorey

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 07:36 PM
These are my 20 greatest men and women players in history in order from best to 20th best. Feel free to make your own lists:


Women:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Chris Evert
4. Margaret Court
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Helen Wills Moody
8. Billie Jean King
9. Monica Seles
10. Serena Williams


#2 during a 10 year period does not make a player #1 for all time ... especially when it takes a sharp knife in the back of the teenage phenom who in the years 1990-1993 was CLEARLY the best woman tennis player in the world until she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a fan of the #2.

federerfanatic
12-01-2007, 07:37 PM
#2 during a 10 year period does not make a player #1 for all time ... especially when it takes a sharp knife in the back of the teenage phenom who in the years 1990-1993 was CLEARLY the best woman tennis player in the world until she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a fan of the #2.

Sorry I dont like what if games. If I guessed were Graf would be without the stabbing I would have to guess were Seles would be too.

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 07:39 PM
Sorry I dont like what if games. If I guessed were Graf would be without the stabbing I would have to guess were Seles would be too.

You are the one who insists that Steffi Graf is the best of all time when in the middle of her career she was not even the best player because of a teenage girl with 2 hands off both sides who won 10 of the 12 biggest events in a 2.5 year period between October 1990 and April 1993 when a jealous Graf fan resorted to stabbing the young Seles in the back with a knife because she was so dominant in women's tennis as the teenage #1.

To be the best, you have to be the best -- the most dominant -- in the middle of your career. If you are not CLEARLY the very, very best of your era (the small 10% or so of the entire 130 year history of the sport) ... then HOW can you be the best of all time?

You have to be the undisputed best player of your era -- and in the MIDDLE of your career (which Steffi Graf most obviously was not in the 30 months running from October 1990 through April 1993 when the #1 teenager was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan) -- if you want to even be in the running for consideration as the all-time greatest.

Graf is ineligible for consideration as the all-time greatest in women's tennis due to the dominance of the teenage Seles in the 30 months between October 1990 and April 1993 when a Graf fan stabbed the #1 (teenage Monica Seles) in the back with a sharp knife.

federerfanatic
12-01-2007, 07:44 PM
I dont "insist" on anything. I just made a list based on my own opinions of where I rank people. I already told you why I dont try to play the "what if" game and guess were Graf would be without the stabbing, since if I did that I would have to do the same with Seles as well. If you dont like my list make your own for the women anyway. That is what this thread is for.

ATPballkid
12-01-2007, 07:46 PM
I already told you why I dont try to play the "what if" game and guess were Graf would be without the stabbing, since if I did that I would have to do the same with Seles as well.


The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not the best of all time.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Seles, of course, as a teenager in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

No way Steffi Graf is the best woman tennis player in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Gunther Parche, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993.

Wuornos
12-02-2007, 02:25 AM
Here's my top 20. Unfortunately only based on results from the open era though. Figures compliled from DOT Ratings.


Men

1 Roger Federer 2841
2 Rod Laver 2806
3 Ivan Lendl 2786
4 Björn Borg 2771
5 Mats Wilander 2764
6 Pete Sampras 2762
7 John McEnroe 2738
8 Ken Rosewall 2736
9 Jim Courier 2734
10 Boris Becker 2726
11 Stefan Edberg 2716
12 Rafael Nadal 2711
13 John Newcombe 2710
14 Jimmy Connors 2706
15 Andre Agassi 2694
16 Stan Smith 2690
17 Arthur Ashe 2687
18 Guillermo Vilas 2680
19 Tony Roche 2673
20 Ilie Năstase 2672




Women

1 Margaret Smith Court 2880
2 Steffi Graf 2880
3 Martina Navratilova 2878
4 Monica Seles 2837
5 Chris Evert 2823
6 Serena Williams 2797
7 Billie Jean King 2781
8 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 2769
9 Martina Hingis 2762
10 Evonne Goolagong 2752
11 Venus Williams 2750
12 Justine Henin 2749
13 Hana Mandlíková 2747
14 Lindsay Davenport 2731
15 Gabriela Sabatini 2721
16 Jennifer Capriati 2713
17 Ann Jones 2705
18 Amélie Mauresmo 2701
19 Maria Sharapova 2696
20 Kim Clijsters 2689

hoodjem
12-02-2007, 06:41 PM
You are the one who insists that Steffi Graf is the best of all time when in the middle of her career she was not even the best player because of a teenage girl with 2 hands off both sides who won 10 of the 12 biggest events in a 2.5 year period between October 1990 and April 1993 when a jealous Graf fan resorted to stabbing the young Seles in the back with a knife because she was so dominant in women's tennis as the teenage #1.

To be the best, you have to be the best -- the most dominant -- in the middle of your career. If you are not CLEARLY the very, very best of your era (the small 10% or so of the entire 130 year history of the sport) ... then HOW can you be the best of all time?

You have to be the undisputed best player of your era -- and in the MIDDLE of your career (which Steffi Graf most obviously was not in the 30 months running from October 1990 through April 1993 when the #1 teenager was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan) -- if you want to even be in the running for consideration as the all-time greatest.

Graf is ineligible for consideration as the all-time greatest in women's tennis due to the dominance of the teenage Seles in the 30 months between October 1990 and April 1993 when a Graf fan stabbed the #1 (teenage Monica Seles) in the back with a sharp knife.

Not that if-only-Seles-had-not-been-stabbed thing again.

hoodjem
12-02-2007, 06:46 PM
Here's my top 20. Unfortunately only based on results from the open era though. Figures compliled from DOT Ratings.


Men

1 Roger Federer 2841
2 Rod Laver 2806
3 Ivan Lendl 2786
4 Björn Borg 2771
5 Mats Wilander 2764
6 Pete Sampras 2762
7 John McEnroe 2738
8 Ken Rosewall 2736
9 Jim Courier 2734
10 Boris Becker 2726
11 Stefan Edberg 2716
12 Rafael Nadal 2711
13 John Newcombe 2710
14 Jimmy Connors 2706
15 Andre Agassi 2694
16 Stan Smith 2690
17 Arthur Ashe 2687
18 Guillermo Vilas 2680
19 Tony Roche 2673
20 Ilie Năstase 2672




Women

1 Margaret Smith Court 2880
2 Steffi Graf 2880
3 Martina Navratilova 2878
4 Monica Seles 2837
5 Chris Evert 2823
6 Serena Williams 2797
7 Billie Jean King 2781
8 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 2769
9 Martina Hingis 2762
10 Evonne Goolagong 2752
11 Venus Williams 2750
12 Justine Henin 2749
13 Hana Mandlíková 2747
14 Lindsay Davenport 2731
15 Gabriela Sabatini 2721
16 Jennifer Capriati 2713
17 Ann Jones 2705
18 Amélie Mauresmo 2701
19 Maria Sharapova 2696
20 Kim Clijsters 2689

While I have the greatest respect for Wuornos and his methodology, I cannot put Wilander above Rosewall, or Nadal above Connors, or Seles above Evert.

Nickognito
12-02-2007, 06:52 PM
It was "Rosewall in the open era only" anyway.

FedForGOAT
12-02-2007, 07:04 PM
These are my 20 greatest men and women players in history in order from best to 20th best. Feel free to make your own lists:

Men:

1- Rod Laver
2- Pancho Gonzalez
3- Ken Rosewall
4- Pete Sampras
5- Bjorn Borg
6- Bill Tilden
7- Don Budge
8- Roger Federer
9- Jimmy Connors
10- Ivan Lendl
11- John McEnroe
12- Jack Kramer
13-Fred Perry
14- Andre Agassi
15- John Newcombe
16- Henri Cochet
17- Rene LaCoste
18- Jack Crawford
19- Frank Sedgeman
20- Lew Hoad

Women:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Chris Evert
4. Margaret Court
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Helen Wills Moody
8. Billie Jean King
9. Monica Seles
10. Serena Williams
11. Justine Henin
12. Maria Bueno
13. Venus Williams
14. Evonne Goolagong
15. Alice Marble
16. Louise Brough
17. Margaret Osborne DuPont
18. Doris Hart
19. Althea Gibson
20. Molla Mallorey

I cannot see Rosewall at #3. Federer deserves to be higher than he is.

federerfanatic
12-03-2007, 07:54 AM
I cannot see Rosewall at #3. Federer deserves to be higher than he is.

The reason I put Rosewall at #3 is because he would have won 20 or more slams probably based on his results in the Pro Slams before the days of Open tennis. I am a big Federer fan but he does not belong any higher then #8 yet. He could move to #1 in my list in the next 3 years, but for now he belongs at #8.

gdsballer
12-03-2007, 08:27 AM
These are my 20 greatest men and women players in history in order from best to 20th best. Feel free to make your own lists:

Men:

1- Rod Laver
2- Pancho Gonzalez
3- Ken Rosewall
4- Pete Sampras
5- Bjorn Borg
6- Bill Tilden
7- Don Budge
8- Roger Federer
9- Jimmy Connors
10- Ivan Lendl
11- John McEnroe
12- Jack Kramer
13-Fred Perry
14- Andre Agassi
15- John Newcombe
16- Henri Cochet
17- Rene LaCoste
18- Jack Crawford
19- Frank Sedgeman
20- Lew Hoad

Women:

1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Chris Evert
4. Margaret Court
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Helen Wills Moody
8. Billie Jean King
9. Monica Seles
10. Serena Williams
11. Justine Henin
12. Maria Bueno
13. Venus Williams
14. Evonne Goolagong
15. Alice Marble
16. Louise Brough
17. Margaret Osborne DuPont
18. Doris Hart
19. Althea Gibson
20. Molla Mallorey


Pancho gonzalez at 2? ahead of federer and sampras and borg? no way

CyBorg
12-03-2007, 09:15 AM
*comment deleted*

rogerfederer26
12-03-2007, 03:57 PM
The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 --

Seles was #1 when she was stabbed, and Steffi Graf did benefit from it (in terms of winning more Grand Slam titles, racking up more weeks at #1, etc.), I think it is fair to keep it in mind when evaluating both of their career accomplisments.

CyBorg
12-03-2007, 06:23 PM
Just for fun .. no real methodology here.

1. Pancho Gonzalez
2. Bill Tilden
3. Rod Laver
4. Bjorn Borg
5. Roger Federer
6. Ken Rosewall
7. Henri Cochet
8. Don Budge
9. Pete Sampras
10. Ellsworth Vines
11. Lawrence Doherty
12. Jack Kramer
13. Rene Lacoste
14. Fred Perry
15. John McEnroe
16. Ivan Lendl
17. Jimmy Connors
18. Bobby Riggs
19. Lew Hoad
20. Frank Sedgman

The top five is pretty interchangeable. I keep changing my mind about the order. Vines is especially tough to rank.

McEnroe-Lendl-Connors is always such a crapshoot for me and I keep changing my mind about it .. I prefer peak tennis and I think that Mac in 84 and Lendl in 86 are close, while Connors in 74 probably had the worst opposition. I gave Mac the edge due to aesthetics. I guess I don't know any better.

capriatifanatic
12-03-2007, 06:31 PM
I will only do the women:

1. Jennifer Capriati
2. Steffi Graf
3. Venus Williams
4. Serena Williams
5. Martina Navratilova
6. Chris Evert
7. Althea Gibson
8. Billie Jean King
9. Margaret Court
10. Monica Seles
11. Gabriela Sabatini
12. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
13. Conchita Martinez
14. Lindsay Davenport
15. Suzanne Lenglen
16. Helen Wills Moody
17. Maureen Connoly
18. Justine Henin
19. Kim Clijsters
20. Jana Novotna

Tshooter
12-11-2007, 09:35 PM
I'm not sure what DOT ratings are but I wouldn't put Wilander anywhere near my top 20. Top 20 nice guys maybe.

akv89
12-12-2007, 04:54 PM
1. Pancho Gonzalez
2. Roger Federer
3. Rod Laver
4. Bjorn Borg
5. Bill Tilden
6. Pete Sampras
7. Ivan Lendl
8. Ken Rosewall
9. Don Budge
10. Williams Renshaw
11. Lew Hoad
12. Jack Kramer
13. Jimmy Connors
14. Andre Agassi
15. Rene Lacoste
16. Henri Cochet
17. John Mcenroe
18. Rafael Nadal
19. John Newcombe
20. Ellsworth Vines

I'm sure this list would be different any other day.

boredone3456
12-12-2007, 05:51 PM
Don't know enough about Men's tennis history to make a valid list but here is mine for the women:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Margaret Court
3. Chris Evert
4. Steffi Graf
5. Helen Wills Moody
6. Monica Seles
7. Suzanne Leglen
8. Billie Jean King
9. Maureen Connolly
10. Justine Henin (as of now....in the future she may rank higher)
11. Evonne Goolagong
12. Martina Hingis
13. Serena Williams
14. Hana Mandlikova
15. Venus Williams
16. Maria Bueno
17. Doris Hart
18. Althea Gibson
19. Molla Mallory
20. Virginia Wade

miniRafa386
12-12-2007, 05:58 PM
yeah same idk much about tennis history, but in the open era,

agassi, sampras, fed, nadal, mcenroe, connors, nastase (open era?), borg, edberg, becker, courior (sp?), and lendl are some (not in order)