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hyogen
12-13-2007, 10:42 AM
I am saddened to see the morality in this country dropping to lowest of lows. (i.e. 2 girls 1 cup.... he's gay/she's gay so what?).

Call me old fashioned or a Jesus freak, but if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

I completely disagree with the statement of anti-gays or so-called Christians who say "God hates f4gs". I completely believe that God loves the gay person, but hates homosexuality.

Just like God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

You can tell me to get the heck out of here with my "pious" beliefs...or to keep my beliefs to myself.....or that everyone is different and everyone is ok...just let them be.

I won't keep going on and on this or other threads about why you should believe this or that.

But do you know 100% for sure this is true? I urge you to really study it out for yourself. You can contact me and I'll even give you my best time and effort to explain my beliefs and why i don't believe blindly in God. People who tell you that all those beliefs in God or whatever is BS....don't really give a crap about whether or not you live forever.

because personally, as much as I absolutely obsess and love tennis, this life of maybe 70-80 years of which I'll play tennis for maybe 40 years? just does NOT cut it for me.

I'm telling you there is something better :) I sincerely hope to continue to play tennis for eternity with all of you.

That is all. My apologies for hijacking the thread. You should be able to IM me or e-mail me if you'd like. Do it to just mock me if you'd like. :)

Fee
12-13-2007, 11:27 AM
Hyogen, those are YOUR beliefs and you're welcome to them. I don't believe in God, or religion in general, and if I did I wouldn't buy into one that condemned Jodie Foster for the sexual orientation she was born with.

Moose Malloy
12-13-2007, 11:38 AM
I am saddened to see the morality in this country dropping to lowest of lows. (i.e. 2 girls 1 cup.... he's gay/she's gay so what?).


The fact that you even know about 2 girls 1 cup says a bit about your morality. I'm guessing you didn't hear about it in church.

hyogen
12-13-2007, 11:46 AM
Nope. you can question my morals if you'd like. I won't give any excuses as to how I even know about 2 girls one cup, but all I'll say is I regret greatly even knowing about it.

just because you go to church or believe in God doesn't mean you're saved. Don't trust any pastor, any system of beliefs--study it out for yourself.

and just because you believe doesn't mean you aren't going to be tempted to do immoral things.

Fee, I realize they're MY beliefs, but have you ever thought of it as it is YOUR choice to settle for about 70-80 yrs on earth (that can be cut short by numerous reasons) or not consider all of possibilities that some of these beliefs may be true?

With that, I'll rest my case and check my inbox in hopes that even one of you may be searching for answers and I maybe at least be able to point in the right direction.

Moose Malloy
12-13-2007, 11:49 AM
I was making a joke. I also wish I didn't know about 2 girls 1 cup.

jmverdugo
12-13-2007, 01:36 PM
With that, I'll rest my case and check my inbox in hopes that even one of you may be searching for answers and I maybe at least be able to point in the right direction.

Hey Hyogen, i know your intentions are good, but you have to know that there is a posibility that you are wrong, isnt it?

Also, i dont think anybody needs a book to tell you what is wrong or what is right, a good person doesnt need to fear anything to do the right thing. I beleive that even if you dont beleive in god but you do the right thing, in the end, everything will workout well for you.

I beleive JF is true to herself, just the fact that she doesnt need to tell everybody her feelings or her sexual inclinations shows she is happy with her life. Most of the time people that is so open with thier beleives and try to teach other people the "right" way of do things are just looking for a confirmation, something that lets them know that they are not wrong. Just my opinion and obviusly i may be wrong.

hyogen
12-13-2007, 03:02 PM
Hey Hyogen, i know your intentions are good, but you have to know that there is a posibility that you are wrong, isnt it?

Also, i dont think anybody needs a book to tell you what is wrong or what is right, a good person doesnt need to fear anything to do the right thing. I beleive that even if you dont beleive in god but you do the right thing, in the end, everything will workout well for you.

I beleive JF is true to herself, just the fact that she doesnt need to tell everybody her feelings or her sexual inclinations shows she is happy with her life. Most of the time people that is so open with thier beleives and try to teach other people the "right" way of do things are just looking for a confirmation, something that lets them know that they are not wrong. Just my opinion and obviusly i may be wrong.

I realize the possibility that I am wrong. I am not trying to teach other people the right way of living (such as sexual orientation)...Not trying to get confirmation that other people on this board agrees with me...

What I was trying to do was share my belief so that maybe some may become curious as to why this world has become so immoral..like exponentially in recent times--curious to find out what the meaning of life is....certainly not to get rich or become the best at something as all of that fades away. I'll tell you that the fear of hell or the desire for heaven as a prize is not enough motivation for one to believe and live for God. And that isn't my reason for believing.

I must again apologize for hijacking the thread -_-

35ft6
12-13-2007, 03:26 PM
What I was trying to do was share my belief so that maybe some may become curious as to why this world has become so immoral..In your opinion, when were the good old days?

hyogen
12-13-2007, 03:36 PM
well it states in the Bible that there is nothing new under the sun. there has always been immorality and evil in the world..........so way before my time. I'm just saying that nowadays we are so open about many immoral things--sometimes proud of it. we are more bold to be the rebel, instigator, criminal....and we are more vocal about defying an Almighty God (who might actually exist and isn't just an indifferent creator).

Bubba
12-13-2007, 03:55 PM
I am saddened to see the morality in this country dropping to lowest of lows. (i.e. 2 girls 1 cup.... he's gay/she's gay so what?).

Call me old fashioned or a Jesus freak, but if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

I completely disagree with the statement of anti-gays or so-called Christians who say "God hates f4gs". I completely believe that God loves the gay person, but hates homosexuality.

Just like God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

You can tell me to get the heck out of here with my "pious" beliefs...or to keep my beliefs to myself.....or that everyone is different and everyone is ok...just let them be.

I won't keep going on and on this or other threads about why you should believe this or that.

But do you know 100% for sure this is true? I urge you to really study it out for yourself. You can contact me and I'll even give you my best time and effort to explain my beliefs and why i don't believe blindly in God. People who tell you that all those beliefs in God or whatever is BS....don't really give a crap about whether or not you live forever.

because personally, as much as I absolutely obsess and love tennis, this life of maybe 70-80 years of which I'll play tennis for maybe 40 years? just does NOT cut it for me.

I'm telling you there is something better :) I sincerely hope to continue to play tennis for eternity with all of you.

That is all. My apologies for hijacking the thread. You should be able to IM me or e-mail me if you'd like. Do it to just mock me if you'd like. :)

Delusional

35ft6
12-13-2007, 04:03 PM
well it states in the Bible that there is nothing new under the sun. there has always been immorality and evil in the world..........so way before my time. How long? Like when women couldn't work or vote, or when black people had to sit in the back of the bus, or when kings ruled by divine right? How do you know we don't live in the best of times? The murder rate is lowest in the civilized world that it's ever been, does that count for anything?I'm just saying that nowadays we are so open about many immoral things--sometimes proud of it. Immorality is subjective, though. Like women can wear shorts now, something that was immoral just 100 years ago in the states. Asian people can date white people, more immorality. Elvis dancing was immoral, jewelry on men was immoral, Clark Gable bare chested was immoral.we are more bold to be the rebel, instigator, criminal... Jesus was all three, no?and we are more vocal about defying an Almighty God (who might actually exist and isn't just an indifferent creator). How do you know God cares? Do you follow all the old testament laws or just the ones you personally find convenient and relevant?

hyogen
12-13-2007, 04:16 PM
I don't claim to be a scholar or expert in any of this. All I'm saying is I have studied enough where I believe I can logically explain my beliefs unlike a lot of the stereotypical "repent or burn in hell" evangelists out there to someone who has an open mind and is wondering about if God really cares/what the purpose of life is...etc.

How do I know that God cares? I'll be happy to correspond with you outside of this forum. I didn't want to open this can of worms on this thread, but I guess what's done is done. I don't wanna be banned before my 800th post--level-up from Semi-Pro to Professional!

Yes, I do try to follow all of those laws...there are only 10...including the 7th day Saturday Sabbath (I'm not Jewish), which the vast majority of Christians do not. Do I make mistakes like taking God's name in vain or having other gods (i.e. Tennis) before God? Yes...but it's a process and not just an overnight change of behavior.

Of course I am human and I err, but the beauty of real Christianity is that there is no degree of sin in God's eyes. You break one, you break them all. No one deserves to be saved more than another due to their lesser degree of sins or lower amount in quantity of sins.

onehandbh
12-13-2007, 04:20 PM
hyogen,

I have a question for you. Do you believe that one must accept
JC as their savior in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven?
Where do you go if you do not?

superman1
12-13-2007, 04:34 PM
the beauty of real Christianity is that there is no degree of sin in God's eyes. You break one, you break them all. No one deserves to be saved more than another due to their lesser degree of sins or lower amount in quantity of sins.

Sorry, but that's stupid beyond belief. That's why Islamic fundamentalists will kill women for not wearing burkas. An eye for an eye, and there is no such thing as a minor sin.

You need to start reading some other books. You're an example of religion gone wrong.

hyogen
12-13-2007, 04:35 PM
hyogen,

I have a question for you. Do you believe that one must accept
JC as their savior in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven?
Where do you go if you do not?

That is a great question and I believe it's a huge deal. From what I understand, the majority of Christians believe that you HAVE to believe and accept JC as savior to be saved.

What about the millions...yes, MILLIONS of people who lived and died without ever hearing JC's name?

The Bible gives an answer for this-- It says that in times of ignorance God WINKS at the sins. He is not a guy with a zapper to electrocute/kill anyone the moment they sin. He WANTS everyone to be saved.. So when you don't KNOW that you're doing anything wrong, God turns a blind eye to it.

Also, for those people who HAVE heard of JC and "believe and accept" him as savior....a HUGE misconception among the vast majority of Christians is that once you're saved, you're always saved.

The Bible also answers to this as well--what then? Should we continue to sin so that grace (mercy) can abound? God forbid!

If you accept JC and believe (for the right reason of loving him back --and not for fear of Hell), then you will want to do the things that please Him (i.e. not sin like before). Of course it's hard to change your old habits whether it be drugs or promiscuous sex or whatever...but that's what a Christian life is about-- dying to self (letting your will die), giving your will to God and letting Jesus live in you.


So basically, I believe that we are judged by what we know. Everyone has a conscience whether you're one of my asian great ancestors (who never heard of JC ever) or a bushman in Africa who never heard about JC. For those who live according to what they know to be right = saved!

so for the part about once saved, always saved thing...I don't believe in that. It is a gift that you can choose to accept....but like any gift, will the gift giver FORCE you to keep it?

It says in the Book that even if one sees someone rise from the dead, they still wouldn't believe. There are people who will certainly choose to live as they please and reject God's way, even if they are convinced of the truth.

hyogen
12-13-2007, 04:38 PM
Sorry, but that's stupid beyond belief. That's why Islamic fundamentalists will kill women for not wearing burkas. An eye for an eye, and there is no such thing as a minor sin.

You need to start reading some other books. You're an example of religion gone wrong.

I'm not talking about the laws of men here. Sure, if you murder you deserve to be put in jail for longer than if you stole something. I'm talking about salvation. Each of us is a sinner, whether its because we are a serial killer or a perpetual liar. What I'm saying is none of our own good works or us being a better person than another doesn't give us any more right to be saved.

AndrewD
12-13-2007, 04:57 PM
if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

Common sense and other philosophies that are older, wiser and less exclusionary.

35ft6
12-13-2007, 05:18 PM
Common sense and other philosophies that are older, wiser and less exclusionary.It's always scary to me when people say this:

if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

They can find no other reason not to ****, steal, lie, and murder other than the Bible? That's a crazy person right there.

CanadianChic
12-13-2007, 05:29 PM
As to the OP I am not surprised. Good for her for feeling confident and secure about who she is. She is a very talented actress and that's all I care about. I only feel sad for those who do not have the self-confidence and strength to publicly live their lives their own way (although I do respect Foster's sense of privacy - she appears to be a very private woman in general). Which brings us to this:

That is a great question and I believe it's a huge deal. From what I understand, the majority of Christians believe that you HAVE to believe and accept JC as savior to be saved.

What about the millions...yes, MILLIONS of people who lived and died without ever hearing JC's name?

The Bible gives an answer for this-- It says that in times of ignorance God WINKS at the sins. He is not a guy with a zapper to electrocute/kill anyone the moment they sin. He WANTS everyone to be saved.. So when you don't KNOW that you're doing anything wrong, God turns a blind eye to it.

Also, for those people who HAVE heard of JC and "believe and accept" him as savior....a HUGE misconception among the vast majority of Christians is that once you're saved, you're always saved.

The Bible also answers to this as well--what then? Should we continue to sin so that grace (mercy) can abound? God forbid!

If you accept JC and believe (for the right reason of loving him back --and not for fear of Hell), then you will want to do the things that please Him (i.e. not sin like before). Of course it's hard to change your old habits whether it be drugs or promiscuous sex or whatever...but that's what a Christian life is about-- dying to self (letting your will die), giving your will to God and letting Jesus live in you.


So basically, I believe that we are judged by what we know. Everyone has a conscience whether you're one of my asian great ancestors (who never heard of JC ever) or a bushman in Africa who never heard about JC. For those who live according to what they know to be right = saved!

so for the part about once saved, always saved thing...I don't believe in that. It is a gift that you can choose to accept....but like any gift, will the gift giver FORCE you to keep it?

It says in the Book that even if one sees someone rise from the dead, they still wouldn't believe. There are people who will certainly choose to live as they please and reject God's way, even if they are convinced of the truth.

Hyogen, I don't even know what to say to all this. This is 2007 for Pete's sake - move along with the times like the rest of us. You are entitled to your beliefs and I respect that but if there were less haters and more acceptance this world would be a much better place to dwell.

johlhausen
12-13-2007, 07:17 PM
How long? Like when women couldn't work or vote, or when black people had to sit in the back of the bus, or when kings ruled by divine right? How do you know we don't live in the best of times? The murder rate is lowest in the civilized world that it's ever been, does that count for anything? Immorality is subjective, though. Like women can wear shorts now, something that was immoral just 100 years ago in the states. Asian people can date white people, more immorality. Elvis dancing was immoral, jewelry on men was immoral, Clark Gable bare chested was immoral. Jesus was all three, no? How do you know God cares? Do you follow all the old testament laws or just the ones you personally find convenient and relevant?

Just a note:

The old testament laws regarding sacrifice do not apply now, as Jesus Christ has made the ultimate sacrifice for mankind.

Phil
12-13-2007, 08:41 PM
Phil, in the part of Hyogen's post you quoted, all he wrote was that there has always been evil and immorality in the world, and that we as a society seem to be getting more and more tolerant of it (at least, that's the way I read the part you quoted). Do you really disagree with what he wrote? Do you not think that there really is more acceptance of immorality in our society? I wasn't around 50 years ago, but I'd be willing to bet that there are certainly more murders, rapes, you name it, than there were back then. In my ever-so-humble opinion, Hyogen's post didn't deserve anywhere near the level of attack you conducted.
As I said, people have been claiming that morals, behavior, etc. has been going down the tube for centuries. Funny thing is, we're still here.

If I were a betting man, I might take you up on that bet, because violent crime is actually down from where it was 30 or 40 years ago. Okay, not sure about 50 years ago...so, there are not more murders and rapes than there have been in decades past. And I DON'T think there is "more acceptance" of immorality in our society. The country, according to pollsters, is becoming more religious and church attendence is up. Does that indicate to YOU that the USA is more accepting of immorality? This is the myth that people constantly perpetuate to try and build a fall of the Roman Empire scenario. This is what religious people DO to justify their beliefs and the prosletyzing of such beliefs. Just tell 'em that society is goin' down the tubes. It sure worked for the temperance movement back in the early part of the last century, right? Seems to work for churches trying to expand their flocks of converts, right?

You don't like my style...fair enough; you're entitled to your opinion. I don't expect to receive any awards for my diplomatic approach, but I stand by what I wrote above.

35ft6
12-13-2007, 09:05 PM
Phil, in the part of Hyogen's post you quoted, all he wrote was that there has always been evil and immorality in the world, and that we as a society seem to be getting more and more tolerant of it (at least, that's the way I read the part you quoted).That's pretty much what the Islamofascists say about western world in general, and USA in particular. Meanwhile, the world's safest and happiest countries are the most secular (northern europe for instance). He's really going out on a limb here.

- One, he doesn't even define what he thinks is morality.
- Two, he says the world is becoming more immoral as if that claim is a self-evident truth. But what is he basing that on? His gut instinct? Sex videos he's seen on the internet? Crime stats? What?
- Three, he claims religion is the only basis of "morality," that religions equals morality. So does he think there is more morality in a theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Taliban controlled Afghanistan? And if there's actually LESS crime, both violent and sexual, in countries MORE secular than the USA, then how does that factor into his assumptions?

p.s. The USA is about 84% Christian. How many more Christians do we need to make this country start becoming moral again? 85%? 95%?

jmverdugo
12-14-2007, 04:48 AM
Being Cristian doesnt automatically makes you decent nor moral and you can be a good person without beleiving in anything. What is annoying is your tone, you write as if you own the true, there is no true about this, as long as you do the right thing and you are happy with your life everything will end up just fine.

Geezer Guy
12-14-2007, 06:48 AM
What the heck is 2 girls 1 cup??

(I know - I've lived a sheltered life. Someone here had to explain "tea bagging" to me awhile back.)

slice bh compliment
12-14-2007, 07:03 AM
I didn't know either, I'm just not that hip.
There's really no need to click on the second link.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=2+girls+1+cup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxp3zqIqO68

bluegrasser
12-14-2007, 07:51 AM
In your opinion, when were the good old days?

Sorry for grabbing a dog by the ears - but in my lifetime probably late fifties/early sixties when my mom would take me to the train station in Long Island to visit relatives in the Bronx. She'd say to the ' train conducter' " keep an eye out for my kid will ya." I mean today ! going in a train at six yrs old solo, my mother ( God rest her soul.) would be thrown in jail.

The sad thing today is how violent a nation we've become, it's become " Pottersville" - yea, I know, get real.....

Geezer Guy
12-14-2007, 09:19 AM
I didn't know either, I'm just not that hip.
There's really no need to click on the second link.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=2+girls+1+cup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxp3zqIqO68

Thanks - guess I should have looked it up myself.

I didn't click on the video.

Dedans Penthouse
12-14-2007, 09:29 AM
Whats wrong with 2 girls 1 cup?
There are three breasts unaccounted for?
Remember the Titanic: they didn't have enough lifeboats either. :neutral:

tarheels2323
12-14-2007, 09:38 AM
well it states in the Bible that there is nothing new under the sun. there has always been immorality and evil in the world..........so way before my time. I'm just saying that nowadays we are so open about many immoral things--sometimes proud of it. we are more bold to be the rebel, instigator, criminal....and we are more vocal about defying an Almighty God (who might actually exist and isn't just an indifferent creator).

No; that's stated in a Cheryl Crow song, and not true to boot. Anyway, it seems the way you're going about your belief isn't going to get you into Heaven based on the God you so adamantly defend (well, not really and that's my point).

I suppose my line of thought is closest to a unitarian agnostic in that I realize that it's impossible to know if any higher power exists, but concede that if one does there are many paths to him/her/it/a big coffee pot in the sky.

I haven't had a rousing discussion on this topic for some time, but first you should probably know that I have a decent background in philosophy and the academic (not theistic) study of religion. Basically what I'm saying is: have at it...

ilovecarlos
12-14-2007, 09:40 AM
Hangs head in shame...was too shy to admit to her Beloved Dedans that she too didn't know what tea bagging or 2 girls and a cup were....I know now....somehow, I feel like I need a shower now....:shock:not the tea bagging part but the 2 girls and a cup:shock:

tarheels2323
12-14-2007, 10:06 AM
That's pretty much what the Islamofascists say about western world in general, and USA in particular. Meanwhile, the world's safest and happiest countries are the most secular (northern europe for instance). He's really going out on a limb here.

- One, he doesn't even define what he thinks is morality.
- Two, he says the world is becoming more immoral as if that claim is a self-evident truth. But what is he basing that on? His gut instinct? Sex videos he's seen on the internet? Crime stats? What?
- Three, he claims religion is the only basis of "morality," that religions equals morality. So does he think there is more morality in a theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Taliban controlled Afghanistan? And if there's actually LESS crime, both violent and sexual, in countries MORE secular than the USA, then how does that factor into his assumptions?

p.s. The USA is about 84% Christian. How many more Christians do we need to make this country start becoming moral again? 85%? 95%?

Your numbers are a little off: The US is about 50% Protestant (Christian), 25% Catholic (Christian), 15% non-religious, and 10% other faiths. But, I agree whole-heartedly with what you're saying. It almost seems as if the OP is a superficial believer (probably not very old) that hasn't really thought about his faith in depth enough to hold on in the face of those that really make him think.

That said, his basis of morality seems to be the Bible and perhaps what his minister/preacher/pastor/fairy godmother tells him (again bringing up the point that his faith hasn't been 1. thought through and 2. challenged), so we know what's behind that door.

As to your second bullet point, it's not that the world is more immoral, we're just more open about and prone to act on it. This leads us to the idea that immorality is becoming more acceptable, and obviously that's true. But, it's not because there's any lack of Bible-thumpers out there (hell, look on any street corner in an average sized city - any increasing immorality just makes it easier for them to believe in their "cause"), or because there's any shortage of church-goers (religious types). It's because, assuming that all morality stems from religious belief (which it doesn't), the religious are not faithful. They believe that church membership gets them in good enough with God to get them into Heaven.

Which brings me to your third point, which I'm all about. Religion does not equal morality and I'd be glad to beat anyone that says that senseless (well, more so than they already are). People that think this are the same people that believe law equals morality. Religion may be one source of morality for those that do it right, but it's certainly not the only one.

There is something I almost forgot: are more secular countries happier, better places to live? Simply put, in theory definitely but not practice. See: the Soviet Union. The human race just isn't there yet.

So, what can be learned here? Simply put, the Church is obsolete. In this day and age, what we need (again, assuming that all morality stems from religion) is not mindless sheep shepherded by a minister/pastor/any guy or gal with a fancy robe. We need people to think about what the Bible says (I'm not a fan, by the way, if only because of what people have justified by it - so I'd advocate reading the Jefferson Bible) and eventually evolve into philosophical race where much of our morality is due to our faith, but not our religion. Isn't that what Jesus was anyway: a philosopher? It's far past time to think for ourselves.

Mr. Blond
12-14-2007, 10:31 AM
Call me old fashioned or a Jesus freak, but if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?



why must our morals be based on the bible? How about just basic human beings being treated with concern and care? The Bible is not the only book in terms of faith........so why make assertion anyway?

OP, you should really open your mind to the idea that YOUR view is NOT the view for everyone....and that the views are different are what makes this world great.

angharad
12-14-2007, 10:34 AM
There is something I almost forgot: are more secular countries happier, better places to live? Simply put, in theory definitely but not practice. See: the Soviet Union. The human race just isn't there yet.

While I agree with the majority of your post, I'm not sure you can use the Soviet Union as a valid point for "secular countries", as it was a forced secularization. You need to look more at countries that are secular by choice.

In a UN study ranking countries as "the most desirable to live in", the top 5 were Iceland, Norway, Australia, Canada, and Ireland. Of the top 3, both Iceland and Norway are largely secular, and Australia reports that only about 7.5% of the population attends worship services, compared to 41% in the US.

slice bh compliment
12-14-2007, 11:13 AM
...not the tea bagging part but the 2 girls and a cup:shock:

Wow, sounds like an invitation! DP, you're a lucky man!

max
12-14-2007, 12:40 PM
hyogen: I'm on your side.

We really are moral creatures, not a bunch of hermetics or isolates. :)

35ft6
12-14-2007, 01:07 PM
Your numbers are a little off: The US is about 50% Protestant (Christian), 25% Catholic (Christian), 15% non-religious, and 10% other faiths. Not by much, though.
As to your second bullet point, it's not that the world is more immoral, we're just more open about and prone to act on it. Open about what? Prone to act on what?This leads us to the idea that immorality is becoming more acceptable, and obviously that's true. Again, we're skipping the most critical step, defining morality. You might think girls in short skirts is immoral and I might think it's the greatest thing ever.But, it's not because there's any lack of Bible-thumpers out there (hell, look on any street corner in an average sized city - any increasing immorality just makes it easier for them to believe in their "cause"), or because there's any shortage of church-goers (religious types). Totally agree. In this country, I see church leaders getting busted for getting massages from gay prostitutes while high on crystal meth, and higher birth rates and incidences of STD's in communities with more churches than average.
There is something I almost forgot: are more secular countries happier, better places to live? Simply put, in theory definitely but not practice. See: the Soviet Union. The human race just isn't there yet. Places like Soviet Union, they were against religion but shared some of the worst characteristics of religion -- never question authority under threat of punishment, no open dialogue, blind allegiance to ideological dogma. It's true Soviet Union wasn't religious in the supernatural sense, but in many other key respects, they behaved much like a theocracy. I'm talking about secular countries where free exchange of ideas is allowed, dogmatic thinking isn't legislated, live and let live, etc. And in theory, if somebody were to suggest it's more of a systemic problem, how ideology is implemented rather than an intrinsic flaw within the system itself, than I can easily imagine Christians in the USA being very cool. Peaceloving, charitable, non-judgmental, a great force for peace.So, what can be learned here? Simply put, the Church is obsolete. In this day and age, what we need (again, assuming that all morality stems from religion) is not mindless sheep shepherded by a minister/pastor/any guy or gal with a fancy robe. We need people to think about what the Bible says (I'm not a fan, by the way, if only because of what people have justified by it - so I'd advocate reading the Jefferson Bible)...Yeah, people might be surprised to know that the father of our Constitution was a deist. And I wonder if they know about the Treaty of Tripoli:Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Doc Hollidae
12-14-2007, 01:35 PM
I blame the internets.

jayserinos99
12-14-2007, 02:16 PM
I blame my friend for sending me the link to 2girls1cup. Ugh.

Kaptain Karl
12-14-2007, 02:41 PM
p.s. The USA is about 84% Christian. How many more Christians do we need to make this country start becoming moral again? 85%? 95%?Wow! What's your source for this stat?

(I'd be surprised if it were currently even 30% Chrisitan.)

- KK

Lakoste
12-14-2007, 03:08 PM
Wow! What's your source for this stat?

(I'd be surprised if it were currently even 30% Chrisitan.)

- KK

http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm
Don't know how accurate that is though.

35ft6
12-14-2007, 03:10 PM
Wow! What's your source for this stat?From here (http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html) and here (http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html). But you can also check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religious_affili ation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#The_American_Religio us_Identification_Survey(I'd be surprised if it were currently even 30% Chrisitan.) Wow, if you're being serious, I'm surprised you're so shocked.

raiden031
12-14-2007, 03:46 PM
I blame my friend for sending me the link to 2girls1cup. Ugh.

That was the most disgusting video I've ever seen. Its funny to watch all the "reaction" videos on the web of people gagging and puking.

Kaptain Karl
12-14-2007, 03:52 PM
George Barna is the "Gallup" of Christianity in the USA. His site is "barna.org".

From his May Report....

83% of Americans identified as Christians, yet only 49% of these individuals described themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity. The remaining portion of the adult population (about 17% of Americans) was split almost equally between those who aligned with another faith and those who describe themselves as atheist or agnostic. These indicators of faith identity are also on par with earlier Barna research.

In terms of denominational affiliation, one-quarter of adults identify as attenders of Catholic churches (23%), which is about half the size of the Protestant-attending segment (49%).

The Barna survey categorizes people based upon their convictions about life after death and creates two additional faith segments: born again and evangelical Christians. These are not based upon self-identification or denominational attendance, but based upon their personal commitment to Christ as well as their theological perspectives. The percent of Americans whose beliefs are categorized as "born again" has tapered off somewhat: currently, 40% are born again Christians compared with 45% in last year’s study and 43% in 1997. Despite the slight decline in numbers, this still represents 90 million born again believers nationwide.

Within the born again group, there are an estimated 16 million evangelical Christians, who also embrace an additional set of beliefs in addition to their profession of faith in Christ and confession of personal sinfulness. The 2007 study found that 7% of adults qualify as evangelical Christians, which is statistically consistent with prior levels.

From these data I think a (Christian) casual reader would say we are 49% Christian as a country. I -- being an evangelical Christian -- would say it's between 7% and 40%. (My peers are usually quick to point out Barna takes a respondent's statement about "being Christian" at face value. And we say just calling yourself Christian does not make it so....)

Barna's data leaves lots of room for debate though.

- KK

slice bh compliment
12-14-2007, 03:55 PM
Hey Karl, can you tell us more about the differences b/n born again and evangelicals?

35ft6
12-14-2007, 03:57 PM
To KK. If they're not Christian enough for you or Barna, that's a separate topic. I knew you wouldn't say "I stand corrected," was actually curious to see what you would come back with. The Gallup of Christianity? I don't know. If somebody says they're a Christian I'll take their word for it and let the numbers speak for themselves.

Kaptain Karl
12-14-2007, 04:15 PM
Hey Karl, can you tell us more about the differences b/n born again and evangelicals?Oh boy...! So long as you accept this as a *very* cursory explanation:

"Born again" Christians (a more accurate translation of the Greek is "born from above.") have received Jesus as their savior. They are Christians.

Evangelicals take the Great Commission very seriously and believe the responsibility of all Christians is to spread the Gospel message and "make more believers." (It is considered a command; not a "suggestion" of the Lord's.) Evangelicals are Born Again Christians who look for opportunities to share their faith and make more Christians.

(And, so you know, "5-point Calvinist" Christians do not believe in the efficacy of missions work or evangelism. They believe God has already chosen who will be saved; therefore, man is wasting time and energy trying to force God's hand.)

Remember, that was cursory....


To KK. If they're not Christian enough for you or Barna, that's a separate topic.So now *you* get to define the bounds of discussion on an Internet forum? (Good luck with that....)

I knew you wouldn't say "I stand corrected," was actually curious to see what you would come back with. The Gallup of Christianity? I don't know. If somebody says they're a Christian I'll take their word for it and let the numbers speak for themselves.As we know from many previous encounters, you and I perceive the world through very different lenses. That's okay with me....

- KK

Doc Hollidae
12-14-2007, 04:16 PM
When I said I blamed the internets I was partially serious. I think the way we perceive the drop in morals and whatnot has a lot to do with technology and access to information.

With the internet, people have a vast amount of information at the tip of their fingers. People can learn and read about anything whether it be legal or illegal, moral or immoral. This is especially true for kids. Most of them are more computer savy then their parents and can usually bypass whatever site or content blocker their parents installed. With no regulation, children are able to learn about sex, drugs, etc. Stuff they would usually learn about from their parents, school, or peers. That's the difference from the "good ol' days" compared to modern society, it's who we're learning our morals from.

I don't know the statistics or know enough about the subject and past research, but I'm sure the ever increasing divorce rate hasn't helped today's society either.

hyogen
12-14-2007, 04:18 PM
look what can of works I've opened O_O

I will try to go back and respond to the posts with thought and care this weekend. I've been slammed at work today. TGIF :D

lethalfang
12-14-2007, 04:23 PM
Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.......
Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.

-- Albert Einstein

35ft6
12-14-2007, 04:42 PM
So now *you* get to define the bounds of discussion on an Internet forum? (Good luck with that....) Nah, that's your job, to delete whatever you feel like. But you missed my point, that point being that whether or not they fit your personal definition, about 80% of Americans self-identify as being a Christian. The way Barna interprets his polls, the way he filters the numbers through his personal opinions, it makes his polls meaningless other than as a numerical projection of Barna's subjective worldview.

Kaptain Karl
12-14-2007, 05:21 PM
... about 80% of Americans self-identify as being a Christian.This, I agree with. And I say *this* is still very subjective. (Something like 90% of those nominal Christians don't even know enough about their "claimed faith" to make accurate statements about it.)

You, 35, know more about Christianity than many who *say* they are followers of Christ....

- KK

Polaris
12-14-2007, 08:33 PM
.. if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?
On our own sense of right and wrong. Most of us are decent people and we don't require a prescription. We were getting along fairly well for more than a hundred thousand years before the Bible or any other religious book was written.

tzinc
12-14-2007, 09:12 PM
Jesus is God.

God came to earth in the form of Jesus because it was time for a New Testament to supercede the Old Testament.

The Old Testament was superceded by the New Testament of Jesus - the New Testament are the things Jesus talked about while on Earth: helping the poor, not taking life (under any circumstances), loving your neighbor etc.

Jesus never said anything against homosexuality EVER. What He said contradicted many things in the Old Testament. Sure they said Homosexuality was wrong in the Old Testament BUT they also said that IF YOUR CHILD DISOBEYED YOU YOU COULD STONE THE CHILD TO DEATH or that IF A WOMAN COMMITS ADULTERY SHE SHOULD BE STONED - the New Testament of Jesus contradicts these teachings of the Old Testament.

Jesus/God had a chance to tell people anything in his time on Earth if homosexuality was bad He could have said so He didn't. He talked about specific things: THOU SHALT NOT KILL, HELP THE POOR, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR these teachings of course are ignore by the RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALISTS who don't do anything for the poor, continue in their pro-killing ways and attack homosexuality.

The USA is in fact the least CHRIST-LIKE NATION on Earth it has much more in common with non-Christian nations like Iraq and Iran where the Death Penalty is LOVED and Homosexuality is bashed.

Kaptain Karl
12-14-2007, 11:00 PM
There is more wrong than right in your post....

The Old Testament was superceded by the New Testament of Jesus ...No. Christ is the fulfillment of the OT. He doesn't "supersede" it; He even says so (Matthew).

... things Jesus talked about while on Earth: ... not taking life (under any circumstances)Not true.

... the New Testament of Jesus contradicts these teachings of the Old Testament.No. (See above.)

Jesus/God had a chance to tell people anything in his time on Earth if homosexuality was bad He could have said so He didn't.This is not quite right either. (Christ is "the Word made flesh." The Word prohibits homosexual acts (not homosexuality).

He talked about specific things: THOU SHALT NOT KILL ...Actually both the Hebrew (OT) and the Greek (NT) words are better translated to murder in English; which carries the concept of not taking innocent life. (There's a difference.)

... HELP THE POOR, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR ...Yes.

... these teachings of course are ignore by the RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALISTS who don't do anything for the poor, continue in their pro-killing ways and attack homosexuality.Not one of these is true.

- KK

tzinc
12-14-2007, 11:46 PM
You can play word games - the reality is Jesus/God could have said ANYTHING in His time on Earth. He could have said STONE ADULTERESS WOMEN for example what he did was the EXACT OPPOSITE. He stopped an ADULTRESS FROM BEING STONED. That is an example of His teaching superceding the Old Testament but you don't like the word supercede so let me say FULFILL.

Jesus' appearence fulfills the Old Testament teaching that God would come to Earth.

Jesus could have said STONE DISOBEDIENT KIDS and STONE HOMOSEXUALS and IT'S OKAY TO HAVE A DEATH PENALTY.

He didn't.

What he actually said was QUITE different - he spoke of LOVE, and NOT KILLING and so on.

Take what Jesus actually said and you have to see the OLD TESTAMENT in a New Light.

What would GOD talk about if he only had a short time on Earth? Uh, the most important things. If HOMOSEXUALITY was bad he would have spoke about it.
He did not. He spoke of LOVING THY NEIGHBOR.

He fulfilled the OLD TESTAMENT by coming to Earth and then HE focused on the KEY ISSUES. And His focus on these contradicts much of the Old Testament.

The example of the ADULTRESS he saved can be applied TO ALL OLD TESTAMENT teaching. It was Jesus' teaching superceding the Old Testament.

Rickson
12-14-2007, 11:53 PM
I am saddened to see the morality in this country dropping to lowest of lows. (i.e. 2 girls 1 cup.... he's gay/she's gay so what?).

Call me old fashioned or a Jesus freak, but if not from the Bible, what do we have to base our morals off of?

I completely disagree with the statement of anti-gays or so-called Christians who say "God hates f4gs". I completely believe that God loves the gay person, but hates homosexuality.

Just like God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

You can tell me to get the heck out of here with my "pious" beliefs...or to keep my beliefs to myself.....or that everyone is different and everyone is ok...just let them be.

I won't keep going on and on this or other threads about why you should believe this or that.

But do you know 100% for sure this is true? I urge you to really study it out for yourself. You can contact me and I'll even give you my best time and effort to explain my beliefs and why i don't believe blindly in God. People who tell you that all those beliefs in God or whatever is BS....don't really give a crap about whether or not you live forever.

because personally, as much as I absolutely obsess and love tennis, this life of maybe 70-80 years of which I'll play tennis for maybe 40 years? just does NOT cut it for me.

I'm telling you there is something better :) I sincerely hope to continue to play tennis for eternity with all of you.

That is all. My apologies for hijacking the thread. You should be able to IM me or e-mail me if you'd like. Do it to just mock me if you'd like. :)

You're a good man. Don't lose faith because there are others like you out there. God fearing men are rare these days, but the few of us who remain shall be rewarded.

Kaptain Karl
12-15-2007, 07:00 AM
... Jesus/God could have said ANYTHING in His time on Earth. He could have said STONE ADULTERESS WOMEN for example what he did was the EXACT OPPOSITE. He stopped an ADULTRESS FROM BEING STONED.As many people do, you are taking this passage out of context and twisting all meaning out of it.

a) Why would Christ not follow The Law in this case?
b) What elements of the Law had to be present for this to be a legitimate stoning?
c) Why wasn't "the other adulterer" (the man) also about to be stoned?
d) Answer those and you'll see how Jesus saw through the attempt to entrap HIM. ((It really had little to do with the adulteress.)
e) In other words, your choice of Bible passage to support your argument is less than a good fit.

Jesus could have said STONE DISOBEDIENT KIDS ... Wait 'til you have some. You might wonder why we don't do this.... (That was a joke. Don't get your panties in a twist.)

But, seriously, be happy you don't live in a theocracy....

... and STONE HOMOSEXUALSThis is not true. "Put to death" yes. "Stoning" is not instructed for the sin of "lying with a male as those who lie with a woman."

... and IT'S OKAY TO HAVE A DEATH PENALTY.Christ does not abolish the death sentence. I recommend you study the Bible (at least a little bit) before mis-stating its messages.

What he actually said was QUITE different - he spoke of LOVE, and NOT KILLING and so on.Love, yes. Not killing? Please show us where?

Take what Jesus actually said and you have to see the OLD TESTAMENT in a New Light. This is accurate.

He fulfilled the OLD TESTAMENT by coming to Earth and then HE focused on the KEY ISSUES. And His focus on these contradicts much of the Old Testament.Not true.

The example of the ADULTRESS he saved can be applied TO ALL OLD TESTAMENT teaching. It was Jesus' teaching superceding the Old Testament.This is really faulty reasoning. It's a common, but invalid, approach to try and create large generalities from specific passages of Scripture. The adulteress example is probably in the "Top Five" of sections of the Bible which are mis-applied.

- KK

Polaris
12-15-2007, 08:58 AM
The Word prohibits homosexual acts (not homosexuality).
The Word is a very smart politician.:)

Seriously, how evil can something be to prohibit sex between two consenting adults, be they homosexual or heterosexual?

Kaptain Karl
12-15-2007, 09:41 AM
Your argument is with God; not me....

- KK

tzinc
12-15-2007, 10:29 AM
KK you're completely misunderstanding the NEW TESTAMENT and the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST. Using your logic it is allright to take a disobedient child and stone them to death. Christ/God game to Earth to set people straight. 2000 years most of them still are doing as they wish and twisting the Bible to suit them. The worst offenders are the RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALISTS who have twisted the bible and words of Christ.

Just read what he actually said get a red letter NT. The Christians who do get it are people like LIBERATION THEOLOGISTS and the PROGRESSIVE CHURCHES around the world. If Christ came to the USA he would be crucified again. What he preached contradicts AMERICAN SOCIETY in every way. Again just read his actual words in red. His message is clear. Living in such a NON-Christian nation creates the situation whereby people have to spin his words to justify LIVING INCORRECTLY. Just like they used to justify SLAVERY. Using the OT over the NT is one way to do this because you can find all kinds of terrible things in the OT. Jesus/God came to earth because the OT wasn't working the NT needed to come into existence. Of course people being people ignored the NT for 2000 years and are still ignoring it. And using the OT to pick and choose ignoring the NT.

What fundamentalist right wing Christians have done to New Testament was also foretold they are the FALSE PROPHETS. Again read his actual words and his actual actions: 1) What did he do 2) What did he say we should do.

A society like France or Sweden or Denmark is much more Christian they take care of the poor, they make sure people have medical care, they don't have the death penalty etc etc etc. America is the least Christian nation on Earth it's ACTUAL VALUES are more akin to non-Christian countries like Iraq and Iran. The USA is even torturing LOL!!!!! American society is based on PUNISHMENT no Western society is more PUNISHMENT FOCUSED and OBSESSED!!! That is the core of American society PUNISHMENT and Jesus was about forgiving not punishing.

Here are the lyrics to an old George Jones song:
If they saw Him riding in, long hair flying in the wind,
Would they love Him down in Shreveport today?
If they heard He was a Jew and a Palestinian too,
Would they love Him down in Nashville today?

If they saw Him talk with ease
To the junkies, w-hores, and thieves,
Would they love Him out in Wichita today?
Would the rich men think it funny
If He said give up your money?
Would they love Him up on Wall Street today?

If He made the wine from water,
Gave it to their sons and daughters,
What would the folks in Salt Lake City say?
If He talked of brotherhood
As He walked their neighborhoods,
Would they love Him up in Boston today?

Oh, If He said love those who use you,
And forgive those who abuse you,
If He turned the other cheek, what would you say?
Would you laugh and call Him crazy,
And just send Him on his way,
If He walked right into your town today?

Would you laugh and call Him crazy,
And just send Him on his way,
If He walkd right into your town today?

tarheels2323
12-15-2007, 10:31 AM
For 35ft6, in order of grievances:

-Open and prone to act on our desires, which some may categorize as immoral, and which have been suppressed by societal values for the past couple hundred years.

-I have to disagree. Attractive girls running around naked is the best thing ever (keeping with the theme; obviously sleeping with attractive girls that are good in bed is the best thing ever). Seriously, though, the only reason people turn to religion for their definition of morality is because it's the defined set of morals most universally accepted. I for one think that everyone needs to develop their own view of morality separate from what some book tells them. That's not dissing books - reading is good; kids, read lots of books, just read them critically and don't believe everything they say. That's what TV is for.

-You'd think that the church would develop some test for that, like placing a naked kid in front of them in an empty room. Wait, I think we just figured out something that is morally unacceptable to all of us. Hopefully. On a more serious note, those people need to lose their manhood. Painfully.

-Good call, sir. I actually wrote a paper on that so it would seem like I would have developed my ideas better. Guess not. In a sense, I don't think that any nation can be truly secular, or is it that anything can be made into a religion? Religion is simply a set of beliefs and practices associated with what is considered sacred. There is a civil religion in America (if you believe Rousseau) and perhaps every nation if you look close enough. Following that idea, it's best if we never become truly secular, but as I believe you've alluded to, cut and chop organized religion into its purest, least harmful form to the end that it may do somebody some good someday.

-I'd say that's doubtful. One of the true downfalls of the blindly religious is that their beliefs are so ingrained that they have as closed a mind as any.

tarheels2323
12-15-2007, 10:38 AM
You, 35, know more about Christianity than many who *say* they are followers of Christ....

- KK

Haha. That is definitely not too bold a statement. You could probably find a lab rat somewhere that has accomplished that. The majority of those who consider themselves religious are part of a mindless hoard controlled by texts and people they know nothing about.

This, of course, is the problem with organized religion. It in no way encourages thinking for yourself.

Anyway, KK, which one are you: Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell?

Kaptain Karl
12-15-2007, 11:11 AM
KK you're completely misunderstanding the NEW TESTAMENT and the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.No, I am not. If you want to argue this, use the Scriptures and show me, please....

Using your logic it is allright to take a disobedient child and stone them to death.I don't live in a country that is a theocracy. The OT Israelites did. Your example does not apply. (I thought you'd get this from my earlier post. Apparently you need everything spelled out for you....)

At least I see you've conceded my points about what the Bible does, and does not, say about homosexuality. Thank you.

Christ/God game to Earth to set people straight.No. He came to be the perfect and only complete sacrifice which would justify those who believed in Him. (For someone who is trying to *teach* me about the Bible, you seem to know very little about it.)

The worst offenders are the RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALISTS ... [then an strange rant about politics, religion, etc...]I'm not discussing that with you. You made some erroneous claims about the Bible. I'm trying to help you better understand what you are posting about.

Back to my earlier issue:[Regarding the story of the adulteress....]

a) Why would Christ not follow The Law in this case?
b) What elements of the Law had to be present for this to be a legitimate stoning?
c) Why wasn't "the other adulterer" (the man) also about to be stoned?
d) Answer those and you'll see how Jesus saw through the attempt to entrap HIM. ((It really had little to do with the adulteress.)
e) In other words, your choice of Bible passage to support your argument is less than a good fit.

The adulteress example is probably in the "Top Five" of sections of the Bible which are mis-applied.
I've been addressing your points. It's time for you to address some of mine. Please respond.

Here are the lyrics to an old George Jones song:I don't care about Jones' song. If you want to "set me straight" about the Bible, let's use the actual Bible; not some country singer's song. (How's that for a concept?)

tzinc - You keep telling me I don't understand the Bible, but you have hardly gotten any of your conclusions right about it ... or about why Jesus came to Earth. If you want to enlighten me about the Bible, I'm "all ears." Let's discuss it.



This, of course, is the problem with organized religion. It in no way encourages thinking for yourself.Your claim seems so "pat". Did you come up with this yourself ... or are you parroting others and [Ahem...] not thinking for yourself?

Anyway, KK, which one are you: Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell?I am neither. (Or did you mean to ask me something different?)

- KK

tarheels2323
12-15-2007, 12:02 PM
KK, that's a tautology (anything of an organized nature to some extent encourages following the leader, be it a single entity or the collective) and didn't require any thought on anyone's part to deduce.

As for the Robertson/Falwell thing, I was just joking around.

tarheels2323
12-15-2007, 12:12 PM
KK, I have a question for you regarding your faith. Do evangelicals believe in biblical literalism or just biblical inerrancy? I know you guys are big on sola scriptura but I seem to be drawing a blank.

Also, since my jury is still out on everything except 'it's impossible to know' (see my first post in the thread), I'd like to hear your argument for whichever (literalism or inerrancy) you believe. Can you also share your thoughts on the Jefferson Bible and its relation to belief in Christ?

35ft6
12-15-2007, 01:37 PM
For 35ft6, in order of grievances:I'd love to respond, but I have no idea which of my posts you're responding to, and don't feel like doing any message board forensics. The quote tags are your friend. :)

35ft6
12-15-2007, 01:43 PM
You, 35, know more about Christianity than many who *say* they are followers of Christ....

- KK Hate the sin, love the sinner. Christians are usually as cool as anybody else, but I'm not crazy about Christianity. That, however, has more to do with how I believe Christianity has been hijacked by political cynicism, corporate greed, and hate-mongering. I can also imagine a world where I would gladly tolerate benevolent Christianity if people focused more on the teachings of Christ. I don't expect religion to go away any time soon, so I would be willing to make peace with Christianity, as I endorse Buddhism (which really shouldn't have any supernatural elements if practiced correctly IMO, but whatever...), if they focused more on the teachings of Christ.

As an atheist who doesn't believe in an after life, I feel like this is my one shot to live in a great world. I'm not just killing time here on my way to a better place, this is it. So I resent people who make the world worse, who treat this place like a hotel room. I mean, I've had days where it was almost like paradise. I don't want to sit on a cloud playing string instruments next to St. Peter. A sunny day, some tennis, a gentle breeze, a long walk with a pretty girl, and then get drunk as skunk -- that's a great life. We don't need supernatural help for that. Anyway.

max
12-15-2007, 01:44 PM
Heck, here's two more cents.
Hyogen: I recently read a few issues of an old superhero comic book I used to read when I was 8-10. The current issues refer to pole dancing, have a couple of scenes of topless women sitting astride men in beds, and refer to internet porn.

Granted, yes, there was no internet when I was a child. But there certainly were topless women. . . only they never appeared in a kid's magazine.

So I think I agree with hyogen. Bad morals probably make good economics---you sell more stuff.

Polaris
12-15-2007, 01:49 PM
The Word is a very smart politician.:)

Seriously, how evil can something be to prohibit sex between two consenting adults, be they homosexual or heterosexual?

Your argument is with God; not me....

Wrong. Insofar as I don't believe in God, my argument is with the concept of God held by some (but not all) believers.

Phil
12-15-2007, 01:54 PM
Heck, here's two more cents.
Hyogen: I recently read a few issues of an old superhero comic book I used to read when I was 8-10. The current issues refer to pole dancing, have a couple of scenes of topless women sitting astride men in beds, and refer to internet porn.

Granted, yes, there was no internet when I was a child. But there certainly were topless women. . . only they never appeared in a kid's magazine.

So I think I agree with hyogen. Bad morals probably make good economics---you sell more stuff.
Well, that settles it! Max read a comic book (???) that included an illustration of a topless women. The decision is in and Max has spoken, based on his recent literary experience: our society is going to Heck. We may as well prepare ourselves now to be turned into salt.

tbini87
12-15-2007, 03:27 PM
I mean, I've had days where it was almost like paradise. A sunny day, some tennis, a gentle breeze, a long walk with a pretty girl, and then get drunk as skunk -- that's a great life. We don't need supernatural help for that. Anyway.

hey man, i am with you, up until the get drunk part. don't understand what is so "great" about that. i don't see anything good about it personally, and don't like not being in control of myself. if life is so great, i don't know why people need to alter their state of mind to have a good time. the only problem with "life" is that the "almost like paradise" days are far and few between. getting a few days like that per year just doesn't quite cut it for me...

35ft6
12-15-2007, 06:13 PM
hey man, i am with you, up until the get drunk part. don't understand what is so "great" about that.Nothing wrong with abstaining. To me, it's incredibly fun. Nothing better than being drunk in Venice on a lazy sunday evening, at a beach bar, singing karaoke with your arms around a raspy-voiced, crazy cougar. Okay, it's better when it's a hotter, younger girl I suppose. Anyway, most of the stuff that really makes life pleasurable, worth living, are of dubious benefit. I'll take a hot dog over a salad... driving with nowhere to go than commuting to work... painting a picture over painting a wall... going for a meandering walk with loved ones over working... etc.

Tennis-Chris
12-15-2007, 06:14 PM
Hyogen, those are YOUR beliefs and you're welcome to them. I don't believe in God, or religion in general, and if I did I wouldn't buy into one that condemned Jodie Foster for the sexual orientation she was born with.

How do you know she was born with it? Because she said so? Come on.

Tennis-Chris
12-15-2007, 06:23 PM
The fact that you even know about 2 girls 1 cup says a bit about your morality. I'm guessing you didn't hear about it in church.

I had never heard about it until this posting. I just went to the web site - my life will never be the same. That was the most horrible thing I have ever seen.:shock:

35ft6
12-15-2007, 08:47 PM
It was terrible. And it only got worse with each subsequent viewing.

Kaptain Karl
12-15-2007, 08:49 PM
Wrong. Insofar as I don't believe in God, my argument is with the concept of God held by some (but not all) believers.A distinction without a difference.

... I don't believe in God ...You're gonna hate how trite this seems, but ... He believes in you.



KK, I have a question for you regarding your faith. Do evangelicals believe in biblical literalism or just biblical inerrancy? I know you guys are big on sola scriptura but I seem to be drawing a blank.Inerrancy.

I don't know *any* real Scriptural Literalists. (There's an OT passage that refers to God being a hen gathering His chicks under his wings. I don't know anybody who literally believes God looks like a chicken.)

Also, since my jury is still out on everything except 'it's impossible to know' (see my first post in the thread), I'd like to hear your argument for whichever (literalism or inerrancy) you believe.Do you need more than the above?

Can you also share your thoughts on the Jefferson Bible and its relation to belief in Christ?I have not studied it. I don't know....

- KK

Polaris
12-15-2007, 09:47 PM
A distinction without a difference.To you, perhaps, God and the Concept of God are one and the same. To me, they are different. Try playing tennis with "the concept of a tennis partner" and you'll see why your statement above appears weird to me. :)

You're gonna hate how trite this seems, but ... He believes in you.
It doesn't seem trite at all. Bizarre? Yes. Funny? Yes. Crazy? Almost, but not quite. Trite? Not at all.

Geezer Guy
12-17-2007, 01:19 PM
... "Born again" Christians (a more accurate translation of the Greek is "born from above.") have received Jesus as their savior. They are Christians. ....

Don't you HAVE to be "born again" to be a Christian?

There aren't any Christians who have NOT been born again, are there?
If they haven't been born again, they're not a Christian - right?

(Or is there a distinction I've either forgotten about or possibly never known?)

bluegrasser
12-17-2007, 01:32 PM
Don't you HAVE to be "born again" to be a Christian?

There aren't any Christians who have NOT been born again, are there?
If they haven't been born again, they're not a Christian - right?

(Or is there a distinction I've either forgotten about or possibly never known?)

Not true - not all of Christiandom' uses that phrase, Greek or Russian Orthodox comes to mind.

Kaptain Karl
12-17-2007, 01:38 PM
Don't you HAVE to be "born again" to be a Christian? Yes. That's why I posted. "They are Christians."

bluegrasser and I do not agree.

- KK

slice bh compliment
12-17-2007, 08:18 PM
Ture, blugrasser, most of the old line churches do not use the phrase 'born again', but it is ''in there''.

This is from the Gospel of John, FYI

There was a man of the Pharisees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees) named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_God).” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
– John 3:1-8, NKJV

Geezer Guy
12-18-2007, 06:58 AM
bg, KK, sbhc,

Thanks. That's the way I remembered it - just got a bit confused.

You guys have a Merry Christmas.

hyogen
11-18-2008, 12:41 PM
Sorry I let this thread die guys. I think a lot of stuff can be explained by this recent post of mine:

What exactly happens to those who are not saved then? Isnt everyone a sinner? How do you account for the Bible verses which so clearly, to me at least, talk about how a person can receive eternal life and salvation, and what happens in the afterlife to those who do not accept the gift and sacrifice?


Yes, they burn up in hellfire, but they cease to exist... By choosing a life of sin and not choosing God's love means that one is separating themselves from God. God knew that "the wages of sin is death". Like I said before, God didn't come to save the self sufficient or content-with-this-life-on-earth people...he came to save the sick and suffering--those who realize that even own's own good works and righteousness is as "filthy rags to God". As for the hell burning forever -- it is an erroneous belief and goes against God's character that is shown throughout the Bible. Sodom and Gomorrah, the most wicked city of its time was finally burned up with everlasting hellfire sent down from Heaven. It's not God's character to torture by burning a sinner in hell forever. That's what Satan wants us to think! He also wants us to believe that there is a middle ground...like nirvana that we can earn our way into Heaven even after we die. As long as Satan injects .01% of his lie into 99.99% of God's truth, he has corrupted the whole thing--similar to how we'd spew clear drinking water and find that it has a spec of feces in it...

So, if God doesn't want to burn people in hell forever, why does he have to do it? Why couldn't he make everyone just not suffer or sin in this world? It is because He loves us that he made us into free-willed beings. He doesn't need to scream into the face of an unbeliever that He is REAL and wants to save them...this unbeliever, who is content to live life here on earth and reject God's love would be miserable in heaven where there is no spec of sin, greed, hate, etc... You can kinda get the picture if you think of a utopia in movies--one day someone's bound to get unhappy.

When God created the universe and Satan used to be his archangel...and started wanting to be above God...God could have wiped Satan out...and He would also have to wipe out everyone's memory of Satan... But He let Satan's mistrust happen and deceive a third of the angels. He was let loose on this Earth--perfect when God made it--but if God hadn't forbidden Adam and Eve to eat of a certain tree, they might as well have been robots. There would have been nothing in that garden to go against God's will. God doesn't want us to love Him out of fear of Hell. Hell has been misconstrued as some eternal torture punishment that God enjoys to inflict on sinners. There is "rejoicing in heaven over one single sinner who repents" and casts his life to God. I am glad I don't have to decide how long mass murderers like Hitler will burn in hell....but even Hitler and even Satan will burn up and be no more. And God will finally be vindicated because of this earth, in which Satan tried to prove that God was unfair....like the story of Job in the Bible...where Satan thought if only God would remove His hand and take away everything from his life--that Job would curse God and die. Even though he lost everything including his children, he said "though He slay me, yet I will trust in Him".

Heaven is not the reason that I or any Christian should believe or pretend to believe in this life. Everyone is given a choice--to live a life of sin and serve self while it lasts...which God knows will eventually lead to death...and suffering and disease and everything else that is so horrible on this Earth.. or accept the gift of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Sadly, many Christians also erroneously believe that those who never had an opportunity to even hear the name of Jesus are simply not the "chosen" ones....and are basically SOL... God gave everyone a conscience and He loves everyone equally. Would he seriously create a child in Africa and be a bushman a thousand years ago without hearing Jesus' name and condemn the child to hell? Or what about the mongols or chinese who grew up in Buddhism and never know a thing about christianity....would God condemn them to hell also? God gave everyone a conscience. We are to live by the amount of light we have received. It says in the Bible, "in times of ignorance, God winked at (your sins)"...also, "shall we continue in sin, so that grace may abound? God forbid." Ahah- so it's not a "once saved, always saved" situation!

For those of you who are content with your life which could end the next moment when you're in your car or last another 50 years until you're old and arthritic...Christianity isn't for you. Some have been deceived into believing that returning to the dust of this earth and being a part of the circle of life is good enough for them......are short-selling themselves. We are meant to live for so much more...like the switchfoot song goes -_- Christianity IS only for the weak. For those that a good 50-70 years on this earth of tennis, fun, sex, sleep, drinking, drugs, fame, wealth, prestige ISN'T good enough...I invite you to really look into what else is out there. I'd be more than happy to email or call you back and forth, although I'm not a scholar or pastor.

Maybe hyogen's a jehovah's witness.

I'm actually not. I do attend a Seventh-day Adventist church because I think they hold the most biblically sound doctrines out there and have the end-time message to prepare for Jesus' 2nd coming.

But even knowing the correct doctrines isn't what saves us. It is my belief that no church can save you, no denomination can save you, and that there are good people in every church and group of people in the world. It is true that only by grace we are saved through faith in sacrifice of Jesus, God's son. It's not by our works that we're saved, but it's important to keep in mind that it says in the Bible that "faith without works is dead". So, if we really have "taken up the cross" and "died to sin" so that it's not us living anymore, but God in us.....then we allow God to transform us into His image...the goal of a Christian--to be Christ-like, etc etc...

What the common misconception is, in basic terms...once you accept God/Jesus you are always saved...and you can do whatever you want...even continue to be an unfaithful husband, or continue stealing, etc... And that is why so many people are turned off by hypocritical Christians (like me) who are worse people than the people who aren't afraid of burning in hell forever because they don't believe God even exists....

It sort of goes along with walking the talk. If you accept God's love, there's no way you will continue to be your old selfish person. It is a process and if you hold onto your faith, God will finish the work in you.

Kobble
11-18-2008, 01:12 PM
I didn't know either, I'm just not that hip.
There's really no need to click on the second link.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=2+girls+1+cup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxp3zqIqO68What other crazy videos you got? I once ate a burger while watching a slaughterhouse vid.

slice bh compliment
11-18-2008, 04:40 PM
Hahhaah, man, I got nothin'. Again, I am not real hip.

I do have some fun tennis, flag football, skiing and soccer clips. Also some great footage from pinewood derby races and ... my wife in a bikini is a truly beautiful thing (the occasional beach trip).

Sorry, I'm not posting any of 'em, It's a promise to my family that I keep web anonymity. This is a good thing when you've got kids.

And that of course brings us back to the lifestyle thing.

Peace.

r2473
11-18-2008, 06:13 PM
In your opinion, when were the good old days?

That's what I was wondering.

r2473
11-18-2008, 06:21 PM
Wow! What's your source for this stat?

(I'd be surprised if it were currently even 30% Chrisitan.)

- KK

Kierkegaard didn't put the number that high :)

Puma
11-20-2008, 01:01 PM
The problem with this thread is how opposing views feel as if they MUST attack each other. We comment over and over again about the origion of morals yet we attack someone first chance we get. It doesn't seem to matter if you believe morals are derived from religion or if they are inate within ones self, it should be noted that intolerance to the degree of attack is immoral.