PDA

View Full Version : Stats for 1989 Italian Open Final (Mancini-Agassi)


Moose Malloy
12-20-2007, 10:31 PM
Score: 6-3,4-6,2-6,7-6,6-1

missing 1st game of set 2

Agassi had a match point serving at 5-4 in the 4th. He didn't seem very interested during the last 3 games of the match, even giving up a return winner on match point(the only return winner by Mancini in the match), going to the net to shake hands before the ball had passed him(it was pretty close to him, he definitely had a play on the ball)

Agassi strangely resorted to moonballs at various times in the match, these were 'hardhit' moonballs, if you can believe, hit like if he was on the run & hitting topspin lobs, so they weren't that easy to handle.

Agassi served at 70%, Mancini at 55%

Mancini broke twice in the 1st, once in the 4th, 3 times in the 5th.
Agassi broke once in the 2nd, twice in the 3rd, once in the 4th.

Agassi had 24 winners: 9 forehands, 11 backhands, 2 overheads, 2 volleys(one was a swinging volley)

Mancini had 29 winners: 16 forehands, 8 backhands, 2 overheads, 3 volleys

Agass had 3 aces, 4 doubles
Mancini had 6 aces, 1 double
Agassi had 23 unreturned serves(1 on a 2nd serve)
Mancini had 22 unreturned serves(5 on 2nd serves)

Agassi was 11 of 20 at net
Mancini was 11 of 26. Many of Mancini's net points were started by Agassi hitting a dropshot to get him to go there, so the higher numbers for him are a little misleading.

Mancini got a code violation for coaching in the 1st set, & a second code violation for racquet abuse giving him a point penalty at game point when he was down break point at 3-3 in the 4th. The crowd was not pleased.

Agassi did eventually win this tournament, 13 years later.

does anyone know what 'punti vinti a rete' means? points won returning serve?

urban
12-21-2007, 01:15 AM
Moose, i think, rete means net, so points won at the net. Mancini was a real strong, heavy guy, like Vilas.

krosero
12-21-2007, 09:07 AM
Good choice here, for variety. Almost of our matches so far have been in the majors.

Maybe Agassi's net-charging against Wilander was a one-time thing? His net stats for this match, the '89 loss to Becker, and the USO loss to Lendl in '88, are all similar; none of those stats are anywhere near the 110 approaches against Wilander.

The first Google hit for "Agassi Mancini", already, is this thread. Under Google News, of course, it doesn't come up; couldn't find any stats there other than the duration of 3 hours 14 minutes.

Agassi hadn't won a title in 10 months.

Dividing by 46 games (since 1 game is missing), Manicini's rate of non-service winners per game is .63, while Agassi is at .52.

Adding in the aces -- which I'm coming to think is important, since some players have huge serves while others have weak ones -- Mancini's rate of clean winners per game is .76, while Agassi's is .59.

Agassi had .54 against Lendl, and .58 with aces included. Against Wilander he had 1.33 (unchanged if aces are included).

Moose, how did you count the net stats? Did you count winners and errors on the approach shot?

lambielspins
12-21-2007, 01:16 PM
I guess it isnt just todays players who conducted their business mostly from the baseline.

Moose Malloy
01-02-2008, 02:32 PM
Maybe Agassi's net-charging against Wilander was a one-time thing? His net stats for this match, the '89 loss to Becker, and the USO loss to Lendl in '88, are all similar; none of those stats are anywhere near the 110 approaches against Wilander.


Yeah, that's partly why I did this one. I also just did the '90 FO final vs Gomez, Agassi hardly came in in that one as well.

Guess that says a lot about Wilander, that Agassi came in so much in that match. Still can't believe it.

Moose, how did you count the net stats? Did you count winners and errors on the approach shot?

In the Mecir thread you gave me some advice on how to tally net stats. I did what you suggested(SVW, SVL, APW, APL)

But I'm not counting SV points where the server got unreturned serves(which I think you disagree with) since guys like Becker & Sampras would get too much credit for SV when they really had no intention of the V part. But even in the Mac-Lendl W match I just did, Mac was really going for aces on his 1st serve a lot, so maybe I did it the right way. But if a player gets passed on the return I count it in the SVL column. Maybe that seems contradictory, but I don't think including it has affected the final stats since clean passes don't seem that common.

As far as approaches, a player needs to make the approach for it to count in my stats, so I'm not counting errors at all. But if a player makes the approach & his opponent misses the pass I count it in the APW column.

So far its been pretty straightforward in the grasscourt matches I did so far. More questions come up in the claycourt matches, but the total numbers are pretty low anyway, so I doubt it would change things that much if I did it differently.

I still haven't got a chance to compare with available net stats I have on some matches to see if I'm doing it right(or at least am on the right track)

have you done net stats of your own on many matches? does it differ from the way I'm doing it? You said it was straightforward in the Mecir-Wilander match.

Partly I'm doing it to compare how agressive some players were(like Mac vs Edberg), & already I'm noticing a difference on surfaces. Players are getting more returns in play on AO grasss vs Wimbledon grass, more on indoor/hardcourt than grass, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mac had more net pts in his FO final than any match he played on grass in his career since I presume Lendl would have made him hit more volleys on that surface than any other.

javier sergio
01-02-2008, 02:47 PM
Score: 6-3,4-6,2-6,7-6,6-1

missing 1st game of set 2

Agassi had a match point serving at 5-4 in the 4th. He didn't seem very interested during the last 3 games of the match, even giving up a return winner on match point(the only return winner by Mancini in the match), going to the net to shake hands before the ball had passed him(it was pretty close to him, he definitely had a play on the ball)

Agassi strangely resorted to moonballs at various times in the match, these were 'hardhit' moonballs, if you can believe, hit like if he was on the run & hitting topspin lobs, so they weren't that easy to handle.

Agassi served at 70%, Mancini at 55%

Mancini broke twice in the 1st, once in the 4th, 3 times in the 5th.
Agassi broke once in the 2nd, twice in the 3rd, once in the 4th.

Agassi had 24 winners: 9 forehands, 11 backhands, 2 overheads, 2 volleys(one was a swinging volley)

Mancini had 29 winners: 16 forehands, 8 backhands, 2 overheads, 3 volleys

Agass had 3 aces, 4 doubles
Mancini had 6 aces, 1 double
Agassi had 23 unreturned serves(1 on a 2nd serve)
Mancini had 22 unreturned serves(5 on 2nd serves)

Agassi was 11 of 20 at net
Mancini was 11 of 26. Many of Mancini's net points were started by Agassi hitting a dropshot to get him to go there, so the higher numbers for him are a little misleading.

Mancini got a code violation for coaching in the 1st set, & a second code violation for racquet abuse giving him a point penalty at game point when he was down break point at 3-3 in the 4th. The crowd was not pleased.

Agassi did eventually win this tournament, 13 years later.

does anyone know what 'punti vinti a rete' means? points won returning serve?

Do you where can I get a copy (DVD) of this match?
I'd love to watch my countryman (Mancini) playing again.
thanks, Javier

Moose Malloy
01-02-2008, 03:03 PM
I got it from replay*********s, but it seems like that site is down now.

You can get the '92 Lipton final(Mancini vs Chang) at tennis dvds dot net

Mancini really had a hell of a backhand.

krosero
01-02-2008, 07:18 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Mac had more net pts in his FO final than any match he played on grass in his career since I presume Lendl would have made him hit more volleys on that surface than any other.NBC did give him a lot of approaches. At 5-6, love-15 in the fifth, they had him winning 85 of 139. McEnroe approached on all five of the points remaining; there were no approach-shot winners or errors to confuse the count. So for the match, McEnroe won 87 of 144 (or 60%).

Two months later CBS gave him 72 of 138 approaches against Connors at the USO.

I have some thoughts about net-stats; I'm testing my counts against available stats for the Roddick matches; tonight I'll have a look at the 2007 USO QF and get back to you.

javier sergio
01-03-2008, 04:16 AM
I got it from replay*********s, but it seems like that site is down now.

You can get the '92 Lipton final(Mancini vs Chang) at tennis dvds dot net

Mancini really had a hell of a backhand.

I have that 92 final with Chang, excellent match. Thanks!

Gaucho Behrend
05-01-2008, 10:11 AM
Do you where can I get a copy (DVD) of this match?
I'd love to watch my countryman (Mancini) playing again.
thanks, Javier

I just loved the match point Agassi had, he came to the net. Mancini 2m behind the baseline rips a huge backhand.

One of my friends has this DVD, I will contact him.

Q&M son
05-02-2008, 10:23 AM
Thanks for this!