Does anybody know what the forehand stretch shortening cycle is?

[SpinningForehand]

Can you please give me a detailed reply of what exactly it is. I have no clue.

[JCo872]

Can you please give me a detailed reply of what exactly it is. I have no clue.

On my homepage, watch the Federer video:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/

As he pulls the racket forward, the wrist lays back, creating a stretch in his forearm muscles. Before contact, the wrist brings the racket forward to "catch up" to the rest of the hitting arm. This can give you additional racket head speeding coming into contact and is most extremely used by Federer and Nadal.

Most players do this somewhat, but not nearly to the extreme degree of Federer and Nadal.

Jeff

[JCo872]

One more thing. James Blake, who has one of the biggest forehands in the world, does not use the "stretch shortening cycle". You can study his forehand here:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=blake_fside_02.swf

The less wrist you use, the easier it is to time the ball. Blake takes the ball early and really drives through the ball hard, so he doesn't need any additional wrist movement.

Jeff

[WildVolley]

I've got to slightly disagree with JCo872 on Blake. Blake doesn't rely on the stretch-shortening cycle as much as Federer or Nadal, but I still slightly see it on the slow motion videos (such as the signature shot video) when he's taking a big cut on the ball (and Blake does blast the ball even without evidence of the cycle as in the linked video). The cycle for Blake is much smaller, but I still see the racquet lay back out of a neutral position, lag slightly, and then play a little catch-up on his especially hard hits.

I think a player taking a big cut on the ball with a double-bend structure is naturally going to get some of the cycle just by letting the racquet fall into the double-bend and not having a death grip on the handle. Federer and Nadal seem to amplify this effect and use it particularly to generate topspin. They seem to have remarkably flexible forearms in the high-speed video, so I definitely agree with JCo872 that they are the best examples of the cycle.

Watching slow-motion video of the top pros, I see some evidence of a stretch-shortening cycle with most of the big hitters, including Gonzo and Agassi. Of the slow motion video I've seen, I see the least evidence of the cycle with Hewitt.

[JCo872]

Good clarifications about Blake.

Also with Hewitt, I typically see him using the wrist minimally as you mention, but I have a few clips where his wrist does come forward. So I guess we can safely say that on average, certain players lay the wrist back a lot farther than other players (Federer and Nadal), but there is always going to be some variance, even among the same player. Federer, for example, will often not use the stretch shortening cycle on return of serves.

[Jonny S&V]

Watching slow-motion video of the top pros, I see some evidence of a stretch-shortening cycle with most of the big hitters, including Gonzo and Agassi. Of the slow motion video I've seen, I see the least evidence of the cycle with Hewitt.

Djokovic seems like he doesn't do it as much either, but my eyes could be decieving (sp?) me. :-?

[JCo872]

Djokovic seems like he doesn't do it as much either, but my eyes could be decieving (sp?) me. :-?

I agree with you.

[WildVolley]

JCo872,

Do you see the "pulling the racquet from a slot" technique as having to do mostly with the setting the double-bend or mostly activating a stretch-shortening cycle of some sort? Most of the modern big hitters, including Blake, pull the racquet from a slot. The wrist goes from a relaxed neutral position to laid back as the racquet is brought forward. I noticed a big increase in my power once I started doing this.

[JCo872]

JCo872,

Do you see the "pulling the racquet from a slot" technique as having to do mostly with the setting the double-bend or mostly activating a stretch-shortening cycle of some sort? Most of the modern big hitters, including Blake, pull the racquet from a slot. The wrist goes from a relaxed neutral position to laid back as the racquet is brought forward. I noticed a big increase in my power once I started doing this.

Very good question. Let's look at Djokovic for reference:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=djokovic_rside_practice_01.swf

In this video, you can see Djokovic doesn't use the "stretch shortening cycle", but he clearly pulls from the slot.

What he is doing is that he is using his torso to rotate into the ball as he pulls the double bend towards the ball. The double bend lines up behind the ball perfectly with this technique. Even well after contact the double bend is still intact because he drives the ball with the entire double bend. I think this is what gets "weight" into the ball.

So I think think this technique has more to do with getting the double bend aligned behind the ball on impact - in front of the body - than it does with the stretch shortening cycle.

Take a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. I think this is the most important part of the modern forehand, but I don't think it is well understood - how the double bend, pulling from the slot, torso rotation, and wrist movement all work together to drive the ball.

[tricky]

From laymen's standpoint, the degree of SSC is what is associated with "wristiness." But there's an important distinction here.

1) When an observer describes a FH as "wristy", he is describing the rapid and "springy" windshield wiper action of the forward swing. He is describing the ballistic response (or effect) of the SSC. The "after."

2) When the player describes his FH as "wristy", he is describing the passive laying back of the wrist during the transition from the backswing to the forward swing. He is describing the passive stretch of the SSC. The "before."

The distinction is important because, often in discussions about wrist, people are talking about the same phenomena but from different ends of it.

BTW, the best way to see the absence of SSC is to try swinging with a Leverage Band or Wrist Assist. Because the wrist is laid back with tension through the entire stroke, there is a very weak SSC response. The wiper movement is slower, and the racquet swing speed is noticeably slower and more difficult

[WildVolley]

Very good question. Let's look at Djokovic for reference:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=djokovic_rside_practice_01.swf

In this video, you can see Djokovic doesn't use the "stretch shortening cycle", but he clearly pulls from the slot.

Take a look at the video and let me know your thoughts. I think this is the most important part of the modern forehand, but I don't think it is well understood - how the double bend, pulling from the slot, torso rotation, and wrist movement all work together to drive the ball.

Thanks for the answer. That's a nice video. Your video evidence does seem to show that pulling the racquet can set up the impact point without relying on a stretch-shortening cycle of the forearm, though it may be doing something with the shoulder and the rest of the body. All I know is that the technique works and it is surprising how it seems to effortlessly put more pace on the ball when you get your whole body and shoulder rotating like that into the shot.

The forearm stretch shortening cycle that seems so evident with Nadal and Federer seems to be used to add a little extra topspin, using the supinating and pronating that Tricky always describes (and completely confuses me.)

I find that my racquet is far more on edge than today's pros who tend to close it parallel with the court when pulling it from the slot. Do you think closing the racquet is important to creating the windshield wiper effect?

[tricky]

I tend to see the "ideal" WW FH as one where the arm is extending into the line of the ball and when there's strong windshield wiper effect. I think they're also intrinsically tied to each mechanically.

One thing you'll notice about Joker's stroke is that not only he doesn't always have a strong wiper effect, but that he often doesn't get a lot of extension of the arm at POC either.

It has to do with how he's setting up his non-hitting arm. Depending on how high you set up the non-hitting arm, this will lead to the front shoulder being above or below the hitting/back shoulder during the takeback and most of forward swing. Joker, by setting his non-hitting arm at around chest level, swings with his front shoulder at or below the hitting shoulder.

This causes radial deviation of the forearm to occur during the initiation of the forward swing. Or, in other words, his elbow starts to "hook" up/outwards as his hitting arm reaches the POC. If he didn't, the way his shoulders are set up would otherwise lead to a uppercut swing motion. The deviation prevents the racquet face from opening up excessively.

However, this also causes the swing to limit either the wiping action or the extension of the hitting arm. The pulling of the racquet from the slot does initiate the SSC, but its effect on the forward swing would be also influenced by the above. If you want to drive through the ball, the radial deviation will hinder the passive supination during the backswing-to-forward swing transition. Thus, it you get a smaller SSC. However, if you want more wiper effect, that same deviation will cause the elbow to hook excessively and prevent extension of the arm. You wouldn't be able to really hit through the ball.

In his case, if he raised his non-hitting arm to shoulder level, so that his front shoulder were above his back shoulder, his forward swing would be significantly different. Ulnar deviation occurs instead, which means that the elbow won't hook at all in the stroke. This enables the forearm to rotate while the arm extends into the path of the ball. The POC will be farther out, and there won't be a normal double-bend at contact. The stroke will look much wristier to a 3rd party. This is what I usually associate as "windshield wiper FH."

Depending on overall mechanics of the FH, the above vs. below issue with the shoulder will affect each one differently. For some, having a lower hitting arm will have the same effect as above. For others, it will facilitate a WW FH. But, each will have a different effect on the stroke.

[JCo872]

Do you think closing the racquet is important to creating the windshield wiper effect?

I think it is important. What forehand grip are you using?

[es-0]

I tend to see the "ideal" WW FH as one where the arm is extending into the line of the ball and when there's strong windshield wiper effect. I think they're also intrinsically tied to each mechanically.

One thing you'll notice about Joker's stroke is that not only he doesn't always have a strong wiper effect, but that he often doesn't get a lot of extension of the arm at POC either.

It has to do with how he's setting up his non-hitting arm. Depending on how high you set up the non-hitting arm, this will lead to the front shoulder being above or below the hitting/back shoulder during the takeback and most of forward swing. Joker, by setting his non-hitting arm at around chest level, swings with his front shoulder at or below the hitting shoulder.

This causes radial deviation of the forearm to occur during the initiation of the forward swing. Or, in other words, his elbow starts to "hook" up/outwards as his hitting arm reaches the POC. If he didn't, the way his shoulders are set up would otherwise lead to a uppercut swing motion. The deviation prevents the racquet face from opening up excessively.

However, this also causes the swing to limit either the wiping action or the extension of the hitting arm. The pulling of the racquet from the slot does initiate the SSC, but its effect on the forward swing would be also influenced by the above. If you want to drive through the ball, the radial deviation will hinder the passive supination during the backswing-to-forward swing transition. Thus, it you get a smaller SSC. However, if you want more wiper effect, that same deviation will cause the elbow to hook excessively and prevent extension of the arm. You wouldn't be able to really hit through the ball.

In his case, if he raised his non-hitting arm to shoulder level, so that his front shoulder were above his back shoulder, his forward swing would be significantly different. Ulnar deviation occurs instead, which means that the elbow won't hook at all in the stroke. This enables the forearm to rotate while the arm extends into the path of the ball. The POC will be farther out, and there won't be a normal double-bend at contact. The stroke will look much wristier to a 3rd party. This is what I usually associate as "windshield wiper FH."

Depending on overall mechanics of the FH, the above vs. below issue with the shoulder will affect each one differently. For some, having a lower hitting arm will have the same effect as above. For others, it will facilitate a WW FH. But, each will have a different effect on the stroke.

Very informative, I'll be sure to check out where my non-hitting arm is next time I hit. Unfortunately it's 15 degrees outside (F), so it may be a while before I play tennis again.

[tricky]

It's actually pretty mechanical, and can be verified during shadow swinging.

Try setting up your non-hitting arm at between chest and sternum level. Then try setting up your non-hitting arm at shoulder level. Observe what differences occur in your forward swing.

[WildVolley]

I think it is important. What forehand grip are you using?

I hit most of my forehands with a mild semi-western grip. I originally learned with an eastern grip, but the last two-years I rotated more toward a semi-western in order to get more topspin and to attempt to modernize my stroke.

[JCo872]

I hit most of my forehands with a mild semi-western grip. I originally learned with an eastern grip, but the last two-years I rotated more toward a semi-western in order to get more topspin and to attempt to modernize my stroke.

You should be fine then.

I decided to start a section on my site with free tips on the modern forehand. I will be incorporating this great discussion into the tips soon:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/forehand_tips.php

I am going to also be incorporating ideas I have learned from other posters here - tips like "pat the dog" after taking the racket back. I will add info about the stretch shortening cycle and "pulling from the slot" as well.

Jeff

[CAM178]

And you can see it clearly in Safin's BH (watched the 05 AO semis again last night).

[JCo872]

And you can see it clearly in Safin's BH (watched the 05 AO semis again last night).

Yes! Absolutely.

[sharpy]

And you can see it clearly in Safin's BH (watched the 05 AO semis again last night).


theres a ssc in almost every pro stroke. For sure safin's bh is an ssc, which probably leads to a passive rear arm straightening as well. setting it up is the hard part though.

[cukoo]

1. Safin's 2 hander uses SSC? Any video on this?

Safin's backhand really drives through the ball. I tried doing it but with both the forearm stretching, its hard to get the timing down. ..


2. Regarding Blake's forehand ... http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=blake_fside_02.swf
Would it be considered a windshield wiper forehand? If it in, it's not really extreme, his racquet tip points at the ball after contact on a leveled plane between the waist and shoulder. Is this how he gets so much pace on the ball?

thanks

[tricky]

Safin's backhand really drives through the ball. I tried doing it but with both the forearm stretching, its hard to get the timing down. ..Agassi's BH has amazing SSC. To a 3rd person, it actually looks like he flicks his wrist into the shot.

I think Safin's secret is that he keeps his front shoulder below his back shoulder through the entire stroke. That's where his quirky scissor kick comes in. As he's transferring his weight forward, he'll sometimes lean a little bit forward so that the front shoulder stays under the back. And this lets him drive a shot and let the forearm properly rotate.

Would it be considered a windshield wiper forehand? If it in, it's not really extreme, his racquet tip points at the ball after contact on a leveled plane between the waist and shoulder. Is this how he gets so much pace on the ball?The way he loads his shoulder is similar to what Sampras and Lendl did (i.e. using a figure-8 motion with the racquet tip starting low.) This enables you to load the shoulder more than in a normal takeback. Also, he's really good at the sit and lift.

[sharpy]

Agassi's BH has amazing SSC. To a 3rd person, it actually looks like he flicks his wrist into the shot.

I think Safin's secret is that he keeps his front shoulder below his back shoulder through the entire stroke. That's where his quirky scissor kick comes in. As he's transferring his weight forward, he'll sometimes lean a little bit forward so that the front shoulder stays under the back. And this lets him drive a shot and let the forearm properly rotate.

The way he loads his shoulder is similar to what Sampras and Lendl did (i.e. using a figure-8 motion with the racquet tip starting low.) This enables you to load the shoulder more than in a normal takeback. Also, he's really good at the sit and lift.

So, with safin how does he set up the ssc on his bh? i see that his rear arm straightens out, is that part of ssc, or is he choosing to straighten his arm out?

[tricky]

i see that his rear arm straightens out, is that part of ssc, or is he choosing to straighten his arm out?

That's just part of the mechanics of the smile/U pattern. The "driver" arm naturally straightens out before it reaches POC.

Safin's BH is remarkable in that he's frigging awesome at keeping his back shoulder above his front through the entire stroke, even if it's a high ball. (On higher balls, his back foot starts to come off the ground, so that he can mantain this.) And what that does for him is put his full weight transfer into his driving arm, so that he can kill balls effortlessly. Also, the collateral effect is that it constricts both of his forearms less, and so the SSC is allowed to develop more. Now, it's not as great as Agassi's BH but it's more than, say, a Hewitt.

The key is to keep the front shoulder "low." Keeping the right side of your body slightly bent while the left side is straight -- through entire stroke -- helps.

[tudwell]

I know everyone's always taking about this 'stretch shortening cycle', or 'coordinated wrist release' or what-have-you, but I just don't see it. In slow motion videos, I rarely see any wrist movement before contact. In this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00) (since it's so comprehensive and Federer seems to be one of the prime examples of this 'wristiness' I do see wrist movement on some of the forehands, but it appears to happen almost exclusively when Federer is pulled wide, and has to angle his racquet more to hit the ball back crosscourt. When he's stationed comfortably and doesn't have to run or reach for the ball, his wrist doesn't move between the beginning of his forward swing and contact.

But more importantly, it's just plain physically impossible. When someone starts to swing forward at the ball, the racquet, and by extension their wrist, lags behind due to inertia. As they continue their forward swing, their wrist continues to stay laid back. As they contact the ball, their wrist is in the same position, at the same angle. If the angle of the wrist changes in the swing, either a) the player is actively moving their wrist forward (which isn't the way this 'stretch shortening cycle' is supposed to happen, if I've accurately interpreted everyone's posts, and which would diminish the power of the stroke) or b) the arm slows down, while inertia continues to pull the relaxed wrist forward, thus changing the angle between the racquet and forearm. I can't think of any reason for a relaxed wrist to suddenly, of its own accord, with no conscious thought from the tennis player, extend forward just before contact.

Unless I'm mistaken and this is all about pronation and forearm rotation and stuff.

[sharpy]

That's just part of the mechanics of the smile/U pattern. The "driver" arm naturally straightens out before it reaches POC.

Safin's BH is remarkable in that he's frigging awesome at keeping his back shoulder above his front through the entire stroke, even if it's a high ball. (On higher balls, his back foot starts to come off the ground, so that he can mantain this.) And what that does for him is put his full weight transfer into his driving arm, so that he can kill balls effortlessly. Also, the collateral effect is that it constricts both of his forearms less, and so the SSC is allowed to develop more. Now, it's not as great as Agassi's BH but it's more than, say, a Hewitt.

The key is to keep the front shoulder "low." Keeping the right side of your body slightly bent while the left side is straight -- through entire stroke -- helps.

Yea, I use a smile pattern takeback but seem to have trouble getting the ssc and passive rear arm straightening. I'm using alot of wrist for my forward swing and the elbow still remains bent at contact.

[WildVolley]

I know everyone's always taking about this 'stretch shortening cycle', or 'coordinated wrist release' or what-have-you, but I just don't see it. In slow motion videos, I rarely see any wrist movement before contact. In this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00) (since it's so comprehensive and Federer seems to be one of the prime examples of this 'wristiness'

That video is hardly comprehensive of the forehands Federer hits. It mostly focuses on serve returns and wide forehands.


I can't think of any reason for a relaxed wrist to suddenly, of its own accord, with no conscious thought from the tennis player, extend forward just before contact.

Unless I'm mistaken and this is all about pronation and forearm rotation and stuff.

Well, this IS about pronation and forearm rotation and a relatively small but strong contraction (reflex) of the forearm muscles against the lag of the racquet you describe. It isn't magic; it is a reflex triggered by large forces put on the forearm muscles by other muscles and the movement of the body. It is not a pure outward snap, but a forward and up snap that won't be highly visible given the movement of the body and the arm.

Many of the strongest contractions of the muscles are actually reflexes triggered by a stretch-shortening cycle. Some are subconscious and others are muscle contractions that are occurring faster than a signal can be sent to the brain and then processed. As a former long-jumper, I'm very familiar with explosive reflex contractions of muscles. Long jumpers sprint at full speed and then explosively jump off the ground in a violent muscle contraction (mostly reflex) that occurs in a fraction of a second. Top servers often describe their fastest serves as feeling "relaxed". Let me assure you that muscles are still contracting in an explosive fashion.

[tricky]

I use a smile pattern takeback but seem to have trouble getting the ssc and passive rear arm straightening. I'm using alot of wrist for my forward swing and the elbow still remains bent at contact.

You might be doing a smile pattern takeback, but then swinging across the body in your forward swing. (Sounds like it if you're using a lot of wrist.) You want to use a smile pattern for both takeback and forward swing. If you are already doing this, you may be tucking in your rear arm, which is not what you want to do.

Well, this IS about pronation and forearm rotation and a relatively small but strong contraction (reflex) of the forearm muscles against the lag of the racquet you describe

Yeah, the wrist doesn't release from the SSC, but the forearm does pronate from it. Wrist doesn't actively flex because there isn't a segment in the kinetic chain to release the flexors. However, the wrist laying back does release the forearm pronators, and it helps to release shoulder rotation.

A really good way to set the effect of week SSC is to try the whole stroke with a completely neutral wrist position.