Advice for my serve?

[sharpy]

Hello everyone

Heres a video of my serve. Any suggestions/tips would be much appreciated.

I am looking for advice specifically relating to improving depth of racket drop. Automatic? Yes. Deep? Not even close.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nY1JCzafbUk night video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ph1fuE8K_J0&feature=user day video

[SystemicAnomaly]

When you leave the ground & land for your serve, you sometimes jump to the slightly to the side rather than straight ahead. You back leg usually kicks way off to the side rather than toward the back fence. Check out the following post for more info:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1957830&postcount=15

[sharpy]

When you leave the ground & land for your serve, you sometimes jump to the slightly to the side rather than straight ahead. You back leg usually kicks way off to the side rather than toward the back fence. Check out the following post for more info:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1957830&postcount=15

Very true. thank you. this happens to me when i try to hit second serves with spin rather than flat.

[Nellie]

That is actually a really nice serve tecnically. It is smooth and the timing of the racquet acceleration looks to be about right.

except - Do you ever think of tossing higher - it looks like you are rushing to catch a short toss, especially in the day video. It does not look like your are fully extending at contact.

[WBF]

sharpy, your serve looks good to me! You could certainly use a bit more muscle on it though!

I agree that you are moving a little to the side, but... This isn't necessarily bad. I am not very strong, but I get a hell of a lot of power on my serve with a similar sideways step (mine is a bit more pronounced actually), so I don't think it would hold you back from getting more power...

[quicken]

You seem to bring down left arm a little too early and you also want to tuck that arm in a little. But then I guess you werent serving at like mach 3 heh.
And as you were doing the trophy position, you might want to pull that racquet shoudler a little more down to get more speed.

[sharpy]

Come on, were's our resident pro tricky??

Help me unlock that phenomenal shoulder flexibility!

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/rckt.jpg

[tricky]

Yes yes I have a lot to say, but I'm watching V-tech right now. :D

[Solat]

you don't drop your racquet enough, your wrist lays back and therefore your racquet appears to drop via wrist rather then via body drive upwards. This will mean you will lack external rotation of the shoulder in the loading of the racquet drive and your serve will lack head speed and no doubt reduced ability to pronate effectively

[BeHappy]

solat is the best poster in this section.

And he's right sharpy

[BeHappy]

sharpy, you presently do this

you point your racquet to the ground and leave your hand at head height

you need to:

put your hand behind your shoulder, at shoulder height, right behind your shoulder, not your neck.

Not so much a back scratch as a shoulder scratch.

Do what I tell you to do and your serve will instantly transform, it will feel almost miraculous.

[tricky]

Going along with what BeHappy is saying, you know your trophy position is right if the hand is about shoulder level rather than at head level. This isn't something you consciously force; it is a reflection that you pivoted correctly.

As Solat is saying, the pivot motion is off. As he point out, it looks as if you use your wrist to finish raising the racquet into the trophy, laying the wrist back. This takes away the loading of the shoulder prior in your takeback.

I think the source of the problem is that, in the beginning of your windup, your back shoulder isn't above your front. Before you begin the windup, you want to make sure you're leaning forward, so that the left side of your body is slightly bent whereas the right side is straight. As you take the racquet back, you want to mantain this slightly crooked position (so left shoulder is under right) until you start raising the toss arm and aiming for the sky.

During your takeback, you really want to just concentrate on moving your back shoulder away from and behind the front. Even when you're raising the tossing arm and looking upwards, you want to keep doing this. This will help influence how much racquet drop you get. Also, in your takeback, you *probably* want the racquet face to open a little toward the net. This puts your shoulder in a more favorable position, so that you can the shoulder farther back.

If you do this correctly, the combination of back shoulder away from front and of aiming upwards, should automatically pivot the trophy position. And, again, you know if the trophy position is good, if the hand is about shoulder height and behind the right shoulder.

So, to reiterate . . .

1) At beginning of windup, are you leaning slightly forward? Is your right side relatively straight and your left side slightly bent? Is your front shoulder below your back shoulder?

2) During takeback, are you consciously taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

3) During first half of takeback, is your front shoulder still under your back shoulder? Is the racquet face partially open toward net?

4) When you initiate the ball toss and look up, are you still taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

5) To raise the racquet, are you pivoting around your elbow or shoulder, instead of the wrist/hand?

6) When you set up the trophy, is your hand at shoulder height and behind the right shoulder?

7) When you initiate the upward swing, are you bringing your back shoulder over and on top of your front shoulder?

8) Does your body move forward into court rather than sideways? This is usually a sign that your external rotation is correct.

[sharpy]

Going along with what BeHappy is saying, you know your trophy position is right if the hand is about shoulder level rather than at head level. This isn't something you consciously force; it is a reflection that you pivoted correctly.

As Solat is saying, the pivot motion is off. As he point out, it looks as if you use your wrist to finish raising the racquet into the trophy, laying the wrist back. This takes away the loading of the shoulder prior in your takeback.

I think the source of the problem is that, in the beginning of your windup, your back shoulder isn't above your front. Before you begin the windup, you want to make sure you're leaning forward, so that the left side of your body is slightly bent whereas the right side is straight. As you take the racquet back, you want to mantain this slightly crooked position (so left shoulder is under right) until you start raising the toss arm and aiming for the sky.

During your takeback, you really want to just concentrate on moving your back shoulder away from and behind the front. Even when you're raising the tossing arm and looking upwards, you want to keep doing this. This will help influence how much racquet drop you get. Also, in your takeback, you *probably* want the racquet face to open a little toward the net. This puts your shoulder in a more favorable position, so that you can the shoulder farther back.

If you do this correctly, the combination of back shoulder away from front and of aiming upwards, should automatically pivot the trophy position. And, again, you know if the trophy position is good, if the hand is about shoulder height and behind the right shoulder.

So, to reiterate . . .

1) At beginning of windup, are you leaning slightly forward? Is your right side relatively straight and your left side slightly bent? Is your front shoulder below your back shoulder?

2) During takeback, are you consciously taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

3) During first half of takeback, is your front shoulder still under your back shoulder? Is the racquet face partially open toward net?

4) When you initiate the ball toss and look up, are you still taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

5) To raise the racquet, are you pivoting around your elbow or shoulder, instead of the wrist/hand?

6) When you set up the trophy, is your hand at shoulder height and behind the right shoulder?

7) When you initiate the upward swing, are you bringing your back shoulder over and on top of your front shoulder?

8) Does your body move forward into court rather than sideways? This is usually a sign that your external rotation is correct.

Yes, I feel if I don't use some wrist to 'finish' into the trophy position, the racket wouldnt be pointed straight up. Instead it would be tilted down to the right if I only relied on an elbow pivot and kept a totally relaxed wrist. (since this happens if you lead w/ elbow using a somewhat abbreviated motion)


What exactly do you mean take your back shoulder away and further to the right than your left shoulder? Can you still do a elbow pivot if you conciously bring the shoulder muscle back and to the right? When exactly is a good time to start bringing the back shoulder further back? Explain more.

[tricky]

nstead it would be tilted down to the right if I only relied on an elbow pivot and kept a totally relaxed wrist. (since this happens if you lead w/ elbow using a somewhat abbreviated motion)

Yeah, it's due to a combination of things that you're doing in the beginning. But the main thing is the relative starting height of back shoulder. During your takeback, your back shoulder is below your front shoulder. And so when you aim your sight upwards and set up the trophy, you have to raise or "swing" the elbow upwards (radial deviation.) This leads to the wrist that you're using.

However, if in your takeback your back shoulder is above your front shoulder, then as you aim your sight upwards, you'll pivot correctly without needing wrist. In fact, it'll be automatic provided that you aim your line of sight upwards.

What exactly do you mean take your back shoulder away and further to the right than your left shoulder? Can you still do a elbow pivot if you conciously bring the shoulder muscle back and to the right? When exactly is a good time to start bringing the back shoulder further back? Explain more.

Actually it's to the back and to the left. That's how I prefer to look at it -- the takeback is back shoulder stretching away from the front; the upward swing is back shoulder snapping back toward the front. It's easier for me to look at this way, because the actual rotation of a serve is moving in all three planes is actually complex if you try to think it through.

Another way to look it is you want to apply as much stretch (passively, through the body itself) to your right pec in your takeback. The stretch on the right pec helps to indicate how much load you're applying to the shoulder, and it helps to influence how much racquet drop you'll get. Now, the key thing here is even when you're applying the trophy position, the pec is still being stretched passively. This means that the shoulder is still being loaded, and in turn this also aids in the setting up of the trophy position.

[Solat]

solat is the best poster in this section.

And he's right sharpy

that is the best thing anyone has ever said about me!

completely misguided but thanks anyway :P

[sharpy]

Yeah, it's due to a combination of things that you're doing in the beginning. But the main thing is the relative starting height of back shoulder. During your takeback, your back shoulder is below your front shoulder. And so when you aim your sight upwards and set up the trophy, you have to raise or "swing" the elbow upwards (radial deviation.) This leads to the wrist that you're using.

However, if in your takeback your back shoulder is above your front shoulder, then as you aim your sight upwards, you'll pivot correctly without needing wrist. In fact, it'll be automatic provided that you aim your line of sight upwards.



Actually it's to the back and to the left. That's how I prefer to look at it -- the takeback is back shoulder stretching away from the front; the upward swing is back shoulder snapping back toward the front. It's easier for me to look at this way, because the actual rotation of a serve is moving in all three planes is actually complex if you try to think it through.

Another way to look it is you want to apply as much stretch (passively, through the body itself) to your right pec in your takeback. The stretch on the right pec helps to indicate how much load you're applying to the shoulder, and it helps to influence how much racquet drop you'll get. Now, the key thing here is even when you're applying the trophy position, the pec is still being stretched passively. This means that the shoulder is still being loaded, and in turn this also aids in the setting up of the trophy position.


When you say back shoulder higher than front do you mean your supposed to purposely lift the right trap muscles a bit, or is it leaning foward a bit with your upper body?

Wouldnt the shoulder automatically go back and to the left if you did an elbow pivot? Or do you have to do this on purpose?

I never knew the orientation of back shoulder over front controls the wrist position too....

By the way thanks so much for your help

[stav_babolat]

When you leave the ground & land for your serve, you sometimes jump to the slightly to the side rather than straight ahead. You back leg usually kicks way off to the side rather than toward the back fence. Check out the following post for more info:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1957830&postcount=15

wouldt a better toss help solve that problem as if he tosses the ball straight , hell naturally move sideways to hit it. I do that alot aswell.

[tricky]

When you say back shoulder higher than front do you mean your supposed to purposely lift the right trap muscles a bit, or is it leaning foward a bit with your upper body?Just lean forward a little. As you initiate the windup, you are still leaning a bit so that the front shoulder is a little under. Then you do the rest of the windup as normal. As long as you concentrate on stretching out the right pec, or moving the back shoulder farther away from the front shoulder, then everything else takes care of itself.

When you initiate the forward swing, it feels a little like you're dunking on the ball. That's a sign that you're experiencing correct rotation.

Wouldnt the shoulder automatically go back and to the left if you did an elbow pivot? Or do you have to do this on purpose?

Yes, but *also* in your takeback, you should also try to take the shoulder to the left while you take it back. That better tracks the natural motion of the shoulder. Right now, you're taking back in a kind of vertical slot, which limits the takeback and thus the racquet drop.

I never knew the orientation of back shoulder over front controls the wrist position too....It's not a direct cause-effect, but when it's set up as you have it, it leads to incorrect deviation of the arm. This also influences groundstrokes, though in each case differently (i.e. push-pull.)

[onehandbh]

^^^
tricky, do you have any videos of yourself serving or playing you
can post?

[sharpy]

Just lean forward a little. As you initiate the windup, you are still leaning a bit so that the front shoulder is a little under. Then you do the rest of the windup as normal. As long as you concentrate on stretching out the right pec, or moving the back shoulder farther away from the front shoulder, then everything else takes care of itself.

When you initiate the forward swing, it feels a little like you're dunking on the ball. That's a sign that you're experiencing correct rotation.

[QUOTE]Wouldnt the shoulder automatically go back and to the left if you did an elbow pivot? Or do you have to do this on purpose?

Yes, but *also* in your takeback, you should also try to take the shoulder to the left while you take it back. That better tracks the natural motion of the shoulder. Right now, you're taking back in a kind of vertical slot, which limits the takeback and thus the racquet drop.



It's not a direct cause-effect, but when it's set up as you have it, it leads to incorrect deviation of the arm. This also influences groundstrokes, though in each case differently (i.e. push-pull.)

So, you want to pull the shoulder back and to the left before you start raising your hitting arm up?

Would you also like to make any comments on the tossing arm action? It doesnt feel that natural when i try to get full extention and its quite erratic.

[tricky]

tricky, do you have any videos of yourself serving or playing you
can post?I thought about doing that, to show the role of pronation and supination in the FH stroke. MUCH easier to show it than to write 1000 lines about it!

So, you want to pull the shoulder back and to the left before you start raising your hitting arm up?Yes. You want to load the back shoulder as much as possible.

In regards to the tossing arm and raising the hitting arm, that itself is initiated from you shifting your line of sight toward the sky while you are still taking back.

Would you also like to make any comments on the tossing arm action? It doesnt feel that natural when i try to get full extention and its quite erratic.

Orientating the shoulders will help with this . Besides making sure you're not flicking the ball in the air, it also helps to watch the ball toss after your windup has started. In the beginning of the windup, you look at where you want the ball to land. You keep looking at that spot until your hands separate, which is about when the hips have already started turning and the front shoulder is past square with net. Then you track the tossing arm with your head and follow the ball toward the same point in the sky. In terms of your tossing action, if you lead the takeback with the elbow, you also want to toss the ball from the elbow. If you lead the takeback with the shoulder, then you toss the ball from the shoulder.

[sharpy]

I thought about doing that, to show the role of pronation and supination in the FH stroke. MUCH easier to show it than to write 1000 lines about it!

Yes. You want to load the back shoulder as much as possible.

In regards to the tossing arm and raising the hitting arm, that itself is initiated from you shifting your line of sight toward the sky while you are still taking back.



Orientating the shoulders will help with this . Besides making sure you're not flicking the ball in the air, it also helps to watch the ball toss after your windup has started. In the beginning of the windup, you look at where you want the ball to land. You keep looking at that spot until your hands separate, which is about when the hips have already started turning and the front shoulder is past square with net. Then you track the tossing arm with your head and follow the ball toward the same point in the sky. In terms of your tossing action, if you lead the takeback with the elbow, you also want to toss the ball from the elbow. If you lead the takeback with the shoulder, then you toss the ball from the shoulder.

Tricky,

Still having trouble getting a natural trophy/wrist position/racket drop issue.... I;ve tried back shoulder over front/ aiming for sky/....I took another video, let me know what you think. From my point of view, all I accomplished is a more circular windup. I don't know. This part of the serve is extremely hard to master...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5kulWTgSaF0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Ja2a0H9oDA

and if you have a moment have a look at my bh video... you wont be disappointed, like all my strokes, they are so close to the 'next' level...Somehow my back view video got deleted, but it showed how despite using a smile takeback, i got a b/b at contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ47_vyy-6o

[sharpy]

tricky???

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KQL28BQQNgo

[drakulie]

Others have already given you some good advice. One thing I would recommend is to make sure you point your tossing arm all the way up. You only bring it up about 3/4 of the way.

Good luck!

[sharpy]

Others have already given you some good advice. One thing I would recommend is to make sure you point your tossing arm all the way up. You only bring it up about 3/4 of the way.

Good luck!

Thank you. You seem to have mastered your own serve. What's your take on getting the racket to drop deeper down that back?

[drakulie]

^^

1. The deeper the racquet drop, the more "space" you have to accelerate up to the contact point.

2. The deeper the racquet drop (if you have your arm pointed straight up), the more torque you are getting. By stretching the muscles in your chest, as a result of having the tossing arm fully extended up, and having the racquet drop to it's maximum, the more speed you are going to obtain by releasing those muscles and uncoling them into the shot.

In the photo below, you could see my tossing arm is pointing straight up. From the tip of my fingers in my tossing arm to my right elbow you could draw a straight line into the ground. You could also see my chest being stretched.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/serve2.jpg

In this photo sequence, you could see as my tossing arm goes down, it begins to swing to the left (which keeps my chest stretched), as the racquet drops straight down, and then begins it's accelearation up the contact point.

(sort of like a see-saw)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0073.jpg

Good luck. You have a great base to begin with your current serve. A few tweeks here and there, and you will have an awesome serve.

[sharpy]

thanks for the screenshots. I really want to master this serve.. Have a look at my racket drop potential

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/rckt.jpg

1st pic is my current drop with an "automatic" drop when i go through the serve motion

2nd top pic is my maximum shoulder flexibility going through the motion with my hands

3rd pic bottom is pete sampras's drop

[drakulie]

^^^Awesome. The second picture is where you want to be. Look how close it is to Sampras'. They are nearly identical. Notice how the tip of the frame is past the butt (nearly reaching the bottom of the shorts). Good stuff.

It takes time, but you will get there if you continue working on it.

remember though to keep that tossing arm going all the way up.

[sharpy]

Yea.. right now i only serve at about 80's. Just imagine if I got the racket drop down....I might be able to serve like you!

[drakulie]

^^^ LOL. Well, you would be surprised how a few tweeks could add mph to your serve. The racquet not completely dropping, coupled with the tossing arm not going all the way up is defintiely robbing you of some mph.

Keep us posted on how your progress is going. I have to hit the courts again soon. I've been having trouble with my neck and haven't been playing much.

Anyway, good luck, and like I said, keep us updated on your progress. Thanks for sharing your vid.

[tricky]

and if you have a moment have a look at my bh video... you wont be disappointed, like all my strokes, they are so close to the 'next' level...Somehow my back view video got deleted, but it showed how despite using a smile takeback, i got a b/b at contact.

You are currently tucking in the front elbow, but you don't want to do that. The vertical axis of your takeback is a U. The horizontal axis of your takeback will be a straight line, not an arc around the body.

As a result, as you take back the racquet and rotate the torso, the front elbow will naturally straighten out very early and start moving away from the torso. This is necessary in order for the takeback to mantain a straight line in the horizontal axis.

Smile pattern is classical; in classical strokes, you do not swing across the body and you do not take the racquet back across the body. It's not that different from a old-fashioned closed stance woodie FH. It's easier to execute if you trace the U with your elbows rather than the shoulders, since the shoulders will make you inclined to swing around the body.

took another video, let me know what you think. From my point of view, all I accomplished is a more circular windup. I don't know. This part of the serve is extremely hard to master...

Yeah, it's the way you're taking the racquet back. You're not really loading the shoulder until you start setting up the trophy, and this is constricting your racquet drop.

When you initiate the takeback, it's a little bit like a butterfly swim stroke. You want to take the arm laterally, so that the arm crosses well behind your right hip (and racquet tip start pointing yoward left side fence) before you start setting up the trophy.

Right now, it doesn't look like you're pronating correctly through the ball. BUT, part of that is because you're constricting your shoulder movement instead of letting it fully rotate externally. That itself comes from your takeback being constricted in the horizontal axis. One that might help you is to keep a slight bend around your left rib through the entire serve. This keeps your front shoulder "under" the back even through the toss, and it prevents your back shoulder from trying to windmill dunk on the ball.

[sharpy]

You are currently tucking in the front elbow, but you don't want to do that. The vertical axis of your takeback is a U. The horizontal axis of your takeback will be a straight line, not an arc around the body.

As a result, as you take back the racquet and rotate the torso, the front elbow will naturally straighten out very early and start moving away from the torso. This is necessary in order for the takeback to mantain a straight line in the horizontal axis.

Smile pattern is classical; in classical strokes, you do not swing across the body and you do not take the racquet back across the body. It's not that different from a old-fashioned closed stance woodie FH. It's easier to execute if you trace the U with your elbows rather than the shoulders, since the shoulders will make you inclined to swing around the body.





What exactly is the difference between tracing "u" w/ elbow or shoulder? What am I tracing it with currently?

Tell me more about this straight line/horizontal axis.. I wasnt aware that im arcing the takeback...?

[tricky]

Tell me more about this straight line/horizontal axis.. I wasnt aware that im arcing the takeback...?Hmm, it probably makes more sense if you've messed around with a 1H BH or an old-school closed-stance FH.In a "classical" stroke, the idea isn't to maximize your racquet speed but to put weight behind the racquet into the path of the ball.

If we were looking down at you from a blimp, in a classical crosscourt shot, your forward swing (and even your body) would go back in a straight line from the ball, and then travel in a straight line toward the ball. Once the racquet passes the POC, then it comes around and finishes across the shoulder. That is what we see overhead. Of course, there is also some kind of down-to-up motion with the swing too.

Right now, you're swinging across your body in the BH. You don't want to do this. Instead of producing that line form and toward the ball, you're swinging across the body, somewhat like a flatter version of a golf swing.

The smile pattern itself is designed to produce that line. It constricts your shoulder rotation, so that you only forward swing longitiduinally (down to up), not laterally (across the body.) This way, you avoid opening up and your driving arm (and thus your weight transfer) is allowed to extend into the line of the shot.

However, the smile pattern works when it's traced with the elbows (or the upper arms) and here only in the vertical plane. That is, no matter how much your hips and torso rotate, the U will always be in the same lateral plane. That means that as you take back, the driving/rear elbow will move away from the body, and as you drive through the POC, the elbow will also move away from the body. In both at takeback and through POC, the arm has automatically straightened out due to the elbow having moved away from the body. Alternately, the guiding/front elbow stays fairly tucked until the racquet passes the POC.

This might help:

First, using your racquet, imagine that you're tracing a big, big U on an invisible wall with the racquet tip. Your hands to guide the takeback and forward racquet. Notice how, as your body rotates toward and away from the wall, one of your arms will straighten, and the other will bend. Notice how your elbows move relative to your body.

Next, concentrate on keeping the back shoulder above the front shoulder through the whole U. You'll find that if you keep the left side of your body straight, and the right side slightly bent around the right rib, this will be easier.

Finally try tracing the U with the elbows, now trying to make the elbows move in a straight line toward the ball. Your stroke will look much abbreviated, and you might see "wristness" or a SSC between the takeback and forward swing. If you don't, you might be swinging around the body.

There are a lot of words, but really you're *THIS* close to getting the BH pattern down!

[sharpy]

Yeah, it's the way you're taking the racquet back. You're not really loading the shoulder until you start setting up the trophy, and this is constricting your racquet drop.

When you initiate the takeback, it's a little bit like a butterfly swim stroke. You want to take the arm laterally, so that the arm crosses well behind your right hip (and racquet tip start pointing yoward left side fence) before you start setting up the trophy.

Right now, it doesn't look like you're pronating correctly through the ball. BUT, part of that is because you're constricting your shoulder movement instead of letting it fully rotate externally. That itself comes from your takeback being constricted in the horizontal axis. One that might help you is to keep a slight bend around your left rib through the entire serve. This keeps your front shoulder "under" the back even through the toss, and it prevents your back shoulder from trying to windmill dunk on the ball.


Ok.

"When you initiate the takeback, it's a little bit like a butterfly swim stroke. You want to take the arm laterally, so that the arm crosses well behind your right hip"
Is this something done before you even start to raise your arm? If so, I might already be doing this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Ja2a0H9oDA&feature=user

What I did notice from the backview is that the trophy position looks awkward and the wrist position too.

[tricky]

What I did notice from the backview is that the trophy position looks awkward and the wrist position too.

Yeah, in the trophy position, the right hand should be near and about the same level as the right shoulder. There's a couple of reasons why . . .

1) I'm not sure whether you're probably orienting upwards as you set up the trophy position. Will has a good video of this over at his fuzzy site, where he throws his racquet straight up in the air.

In order to do that, it's not just your head is looking at the highest point in the sky, but that your whole body twists upwards to make this happen. It's that twisting action that helps to facilitate the high ball toss, the big knee drop, and it's also what actually sets up the trophy.

If you leave this segment out, then theoretically your racquet would stay low, your knees should only be slightly bent, and the the tossing arm doesn't get up above the shoulder. In other words, you would be set up to hit the ball as if it was a "smash forehand." It is this whole body turning toward the sky that sets up all those above elements, and in the meantime, all your back arm should do is to concentrate on taking the racquet further back.

2) In your arm takeback, for now, try pointing your racquet tip between the right side fence and the ground, with the racquet face opening up. In other words a little bit higher than what you're doing now and not so much toward the ground.

[sharpy]

Yeah, in the trophy position, the right hand should be near and about the same level as the right shoulder. There's a couple of reasons why . . .

1) I'm not sure whether you're probably orienting upwards as you set up the trophy position. Will has a good video of this over at his fuzzy site, where he throws his racquet straight up in the air.

In order to do that, it's not just your head is looking at the highest point in the sky, but that your whole body twists upwards to make this happen. It's that twisting action that helps to facilitate the high ball toss, the big knee drop, and it's also what actually sets up the trophy.

If you leave this segment out, then theoretically your racquet would stay low, your knees should only be slightly bent, and the the tossing arm doesn't get up above the shoulder. In other words, you would be set up to hit the ball as if it was a "smash forehand." It is this whole body turning toward the sky that sets up all those above elements, and in the meantime, all your back arm should do is to concentrate on taking the racquet further back.

2) In your arm takeback, for now, try pointing your racquet tip between the right side fence and the ground, with the racquet face opening up. In other words a little bit higher than what you're doing now and not so much toward the ground.


I did notice guys like federer have a fairly high trophy position about head level?

[tricky]

I did notice guys like federer have a fairly high trophy position about head level?

That's a really good point. The trophy with hand at roughly shoulder-level is calibrated against a continental grip. Federer's grip is between Eastern BH and continental. As the hand moves toward an Eastern backhand grip, the hand will be higher.

[sharpy]

That's a really good point. The trophy with hand at roughly shoulder-level is calibrated against a continental grip. Federer's grip is between Eastern BH and continental. As the hand moves toward an Eastern backhand grip, the hand will be higher.

So, me using a continental does that mean something is wrong (trophy at head height?)

[tricky]

In your case, it's related to how you're setting up the trophy position. The trophy position is set up partially by your body re-orienting for a upward swing. Not as much from raising up your arm up and away from the body. That's part of it, but most of it really is from twisting the body so that you can "throw the racquet upwards." This is more apparent if you try the sock exercise.

[BeHappy]

Just a suggestion, maybe you should just tell sharpy what to do without explaining, it seems to me it's the explanations which are confusing sharpy, why not just write a paragraph detailing what he should work on next time he serves?

[sharpy]

I kinda know what you mean w/ thinking of 'throwing upwards' (which would cause alot more lateral lean), though its a little strange that this can also orient the trophy correctly... Would this fix the wrist pos. as well?

[sharpy]

Just a suggestion, maybe you should just tell sharpy what to do without explaining, it seems to me it's the explanations which are confusing sharpy, why not just write a paragraph detailing what he should work on next time he serves?

haha.. gorilla you always save my day:lol:

[tricky]

I kinda know what you mean, though its a little strange that this can also orient the trophy correctly... Would this fix the wrist pos. as well?It helps, but you need to make sure you fixed the issue with the takeback. That's been the source of your headaches with this thread! :D

In your takeback, your hand should be able to eventually reach the same height as when you started letting of the racquet, just by taking it back and not by self-consciously lifting it. Just work on just that part, turning your hips back and letting the arm go back.

If you have that, then yeah just by oriented your body toward the sky, the trophy position will be initiated on its own accord.

haha.. gorilla you always save my day

I think after you seem to have a reasonably visual sense of this stuff, we'll just re-summarize into another checklist.

[sharpy]

It helps, but you need to make sure you fixed the issue with the takeback. That's been the source of your headaches with this thread! :D

In your takeback, your hand should be able to eventually reach the same height as when you started letting of the racquet, just by taking it back and not by self-consciously lifting it. Just work on just that part, turning your hips back and letting the arm go back.

If you have that, then yeah just by oriented your body toward the sky, the trophy position will be initiated on its own accord.



I think after you seem to have a reasonably visual sense of this stuff, we'll just re-summarize into another checklist.


Yea. We're probably talking about something pretty simple here..

Sorry to bother, but could you reinstate the "takeback issue?"/solution I think thoughout this essay you have written, we're all over the place:)

[tricky]

Sorry to bother, but could you reinstate the "takeback issue?"/solution I think thoughout this essay you have written, we're all over the place

Right now, your takeback is not lateral -- it's almost all longtiduinal (like a windmill.)

As you take the racquet back, it helps to have . . .

1) Racquet tip pointing between ground and right side fence through most of takeback
2) Racquet face open up a little toward the net through most of takeback
3) Emphasize the shoulder turn. Back shoulder away from front shoulder. Stretch in the right pec
4) Racquet eventually finishing with it pointing toward the back fence and left side fence

Other things to make sure . . .

1) Front shoulder under back shoulder. Mantaining a slight bend in the left/front rib through all stroke helps with that
2) Body and field-of-vision turning upwards toward the sky helps set up the ball toss, trophy position, and knee drop

Things are good when . . .

1) Trophy position for continental grip should be set so that hand is roughly at right shoulder level and behind shoulder
2) Tossing arm should be in a high position
3) Automatic and deep racquet drop
4) You're hitting 140+

[BeHappy]

Yea. We're probably talking about something pretty simple here..

Sorry to bother, but could you reinstate the "takeback issue?"/solution I think thoughout this essay you have written, we're all over the place:)

see what I mean?
lol ;)

[sharpy]

Right now, your takeback is not lateral -- it's almost all longtiduinal (like a windmill.)

As you take the racquet back, it helps to have . . .

1) Racquet tip pointing between ground and right side fence through most of takeback
2) Racquet face open up a little toward the net through most of takeback
3) Emphasize the shoulder turn. Back shoulder away from front shoulder. Stretch in the right pec
4) Racquet eventually finishing with it pointing toward the back fence and left side fence

Other things to make sure . . .

1) Front shoulder under back shoulder. Mantaining a slight bend in the left/front rib through all stroke helps with that
2) Body and field-of-vision turning upwards toward the sky helps set up the ball toss, trophy position, and knee drop

Things are good when . . .

1) Trophy position for continental grip should be set so that hand is roughly at right shoulder level and behind shoulder
2) Tossing arm should be in a high position
3) Automatic and deep racquet drop
4) You're hitting 140+


tricky,

tell me where the differences lie

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/3.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/4.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/5.jpg

[Solat]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f327/noniandwal/tennis/servedrive.jpg
apart from all the talk about your take back it should also be noted you do not extend your front hip enough to help lower your right hip. The hip drive (and subsequent shoulder and elbow) upward is what pushes against the racquet causing it to drop lower. If you look at this pic you can see how level your hips are compared to Sampras. By not having rear hip drive you do not push your right side of the body up enough which means your racquet will just "hang" in limbo at the top of your serve as you currently do.

the better the upward drive, the better the related racquet drop. It's great to see someone put in as much effort for self improvement as you are Sharpy, good luck.

[tricky]

Oh I see -- you're modeling after Sampras's "whip it! whip it good!" style.

BTW, it's really nice that you did this. Makes it easier to see things . . .

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/1.jpg
1) Not sure if if you're hunching your right trap, but don't do that if you are.

2) At this point, you want to still be looking at where you want to hit the ball, NOT at your toss arm. See the top right picture as a reference. This will prevent your torso from rotating too early.

3) This is not obvious in the two pictures, but Sampras starts twisting his body to "aim for the sky" when the tossing arm has reached shoulder level. So the initiation of his takeback, the tossing arm crossing the shoulder, and the tracking or watching of the tossing arm occur simultaneously.

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/2.jpg
1) You want to start tracking (i.e. watching) your toss arm roughly when the toss arm reaches shoulder level. Before that, you want to keep looking in the direction that you want to hit the ball. You can see Sampras do this in the top right and bottom picture; he doesn't start looking at his toss arm until he's reached shoulder level.

2) Looking at your wrist position, it looks you're doing a "lat raise" in your back. In other words, you're lifting upwards from the elbow for your takeback. Not a good idea.

3) Sampras is a unique cat in that he doesn't really start his takeback until when he starts tracking the tossing arm. And, remember, he doesn't start tracking his tossing arm until the arm has roughly crossed shoulder level. So the hitting arm is well, well behind the tossing arm. This of course differs with your takeback, which is synced with your tossing arm.

4) In the bottom picture, Sampras lets his hip rotation gently nudge the elbow toward the left side fence, while keeping the front shoulder below the back shoulder. To keep the latter, all you got to do is keep the slight bend around your left rib through the entire stroke. Never let that open up as you aim upwards. Never lift from your riight trap. This will also help you from "lat raising" in your takeback.

5) Sampras's takeback is interesting in that after this slight "nudge", pretty much he lets his arm kinda "go along" for the ride with his body. In other words, once he "starts" the arm of his takeback, everything that comes after that -- takeback, trophy position, racket drop, and upward swing -- is natural product of body rotation, body twisting to aim for the sky, tracking the ball with his head, and keeping the front and back shoulders properly calibrated.

6) The turning of your body upwards enables the trophy position to be set, but because Sampras's takeback starts so late, it doesn't happen until he has already initiated the "upward stage" of the stroke. By doing this, it lets him use his body to really "whip" his arm through the entire movement for a lot of power, just like most people do with their forehands.

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/3.jpg
1) As you can see, because you're "lat raising" or "lifting" with your takeback, your wrist is flexed inward and your hand is "hanging" below your arm. And of course this leads to the wrist action you do to set the trophy. Contrast with the bottom of Sampras, whose hand is line with the hitting arm. This is what should happen in a correct takeback.

2) Notice, in the bottom picture, how his hips have twisted upwards, so that his whole body is tilted upwards. He's in the middle of setting up his trophy position passively.

3) Notice, in the bottom picture, how the elbow of his tossing arm at maximal height, does not get closer to his head. This is because he keeps that slight bend in his left rib (thus keeping the shoulder properly calibrated -- hard to verify when the person's shoulder axis gets twisted around like this.

4) Notice, in the bottom picture, how his left shoulder is pointed more or less in the direction of where the ball will be. Whereas in your picture, the left shoulder is pointing toward the right side fence. This is again, because he doesn't track the toss arm until the arm has crossed the shoulder.

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/4.jpg
1) Sampras's trophy position is almost set. Notice hand is about level with shoulder. Notice wrist aligned with hitting arm. Notice In your picture, your hand is still below the hitting arm, and thus you are starting to "wrist" it.

2) Look at how his line of sight is, and how his whole body is oriented toward that line of sight.

3) Look at how his knees are further along in bent position than yours. This is tied into his whole body being oriented toward the sky.

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/5.jpg
1) The trophy position. Hand at right shoulder level. Hand behind the right shoulder.

2) Look at the orientation of his body and how high the line of sight. Look at how his head and the upper arm are parallel to his line of sight.

3) Notice how because of that orientation, he's not only dropping considerably, but his back foot is now starting to come in.

[BeHappy]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f327/noniandwal/tennis/servedrive.jpg
apart from all the talk about your take back it should also be noted you do not extend your front hip enough to help lower your right hip. The hip drive (and subsequent shoulder and elbow) upward is what pushes against the racquet causing it to drop lower. If you look at this pic you can see how level your hips are compared to Sampras. By not having rear hip drive you do not push your right side of the body up enough which means your racquet will just "hang" in limbo at the top of your serve as you currently do.

the better the upward drive, the better the related racquet drop. It's great to see someone put in as much effort for self improvement as you are Sharpy, good luck.

He's right sharpy, don't ignore this as you have everyone elses advice.BTW, your hip extends if you are leaning into the court as you bend your knees, or to put it another way, bend your knees by leaning into the court.

It's also important that you point your arm straight up into the sky, this sets the angle/axis that your shoulders rotate at.The more vertical the axis, the lower your racquet will drop.Look at Sampras, his arm points straight up to the sky.Another thing is that your ball tossing arm which points upward to the sky must be in line with your shoulders, like this:

http://i17.tinypic.com/6o2uzns.jpg

which also ensures that your weight moves forward rather than up when your legs uncoil.


PS: maybe you should try using pictures tricky? more than a thousand words... ;)

[sharpy]

Thank you all for great advice, solat, gorilla and tricky


I'll probably do the same format again for my forehand, using the video analysis program comparing my forehand to federer... stay tuned

[Solat]

look out for our series..

Mastering Tennis with MS Paint

[BeHappy]

LOL

we'll charge a subscription fee ;)

[BeHappy]

BTW Sharpy, until you sort out your non existant hand drop when serving as I pointed out in my first post, you won't have even a good serve, even if you do everything else right.Fixing that is priority number one, should only take about 6 seconds.

[tricky]

I'll probably do the same format again for my forehand, using the video analysis program comparing my forehand to federer... stay tuned

Yeah, if you do the side-by-side shots, I'll try using Powerpoint to annotate the pictures. Might make it easier to follow.

[sharpy]

Yeah, if you do the side-by-side shots, I'll try using Powerpoint to annotate the pictures. Might make it easier to follow.

Ok tricky. Been working on the serve a bit today. Lets try another angle, I've noticed that the shoulder still doesnt get loaded properly into a natural trophy. Am i still lat raising? hand still at head level..

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/b.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/c.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/d.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/e.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/f.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/g.jpg

[sharpy]

and of course today's video in real time

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eAB6ExIWm3U

[BeHappy]

http://i11.tinypic.com/6l2w6xz.jpg

???????????????

[tricky]

Am i still lat raising? hand still at head level..

Yes (still doing the wrist thing to set up the trophy), but now I see why. If just change one thing, it'll help a lot

Remember how in your current BH, as you take the racquet back, the back elbow starts to swing upwards (i.e. smile pattern?) It's not a lot (and to the naked eye in full motion, it looks almost straight), but at end of takeback, it's about chest level.

Something similar should happen with the back hitting arm of your serve takeback. It doesn't end as high up, still at or just below chest level, but it'll keep your back shoulder above the front, improve the stretch/takeback, and it'll enable you to set up the trophy position with hand at shoulder level. In fact, you should find that that the trophy position should set itself as you orient upwards (i.e. extended left hip, bent right hip, still a slight bend in the left rib.)

Also, you'll find that your racquet face will be more open in your takeback.

There's other elements to work on, but the above is the most important.

[sharpy]

Yes (still doing the wrist thing to set up the trophy), but now I see why. If just change one thing, it'll help a lot

Remember how in your current BH, as you take the racquet back, the back elbow starts to swing upwards (i.e. smile pattern?) It's not a lot (and to the naked eye in full motion, it looks almost straight), but at end of takeback, it's about chest level.

Something similar should happen with the back hitting arm of your serve takeback. It doesn't end as high up, still at or just below chest level, but it'll keep your back shoulder above the front, improve the stretch/takeback, and it'll enable you to set up the trophy position with hand at shoulder level. In fact, you should find that that the trophy position should set itself as you orient upwards (i.e. extended left hip, bent right hip, still a slight bend in the left rib.)

Also, you'll find that your racquet face will be more open in your takeback.

There's other elements to work on, but the above is the most important.

tricky

:roll: im trying to do a 2hbh with my on my forehand side to try to get this...

could you please explain more, wouldnt this kind of lead into a lat raise anyway?

[BeHappy]

this is insane, you have basic flaws in your service motion and you're ignoring them and approaching this as if you're fine tuning it.

Your knee bend, as pointed out by Solat, is pretty non existant too.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/g.jpg

[sharpy]

this is insane, you have basic flaws in your service motion and you're ignoring them and approaching this as if you're fine tuning it.


No its not that insane, gorilla. leg drive only contributes to 10% and backwards lean perhaps even less % to the serve speed

but the takeback is the most important. yes, those minor flaws are important, but without the basic takeback in place youve got nothing

[tricky]

but the takeback is the most important. yes, those minor flaws are important, but without the basic takeback in place youve got nothing

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid carpet bombing you with stuff . . . Also this is actually interrelated. Once the takeback is corrected, the knee bend will be deeper. Also, your ball toss will start to improve because your front shoulder will not be as constricted.

could you please explain more, wouldnt this kind of lead into a lat raise anyway?

Not as much, because the takeback is a stretch, and because the elbow hooking upwards is not the primary arm movement of the takeback.

The primary arm movement is that the arm stretches laterally until it crosses the right side of your body. However, for it to stretch naturally, the elbow has to either hook slightly upwards (i.e. away from midline of body) or slightly downwards (towards midline of body.) The former is what you want.

The bend in the elbow is mostly preserved through the takeback (this also lets your body know it's a stretch and not a lat raise or concentric movement.) It's only when you start turning to set the trophy position does the bend in the elbow change.

Wow, something I didn't notice . . . It looks like you're rotating your forearm (supinating) in the takeback in order to open up the racquet face. Don't do that. Let the arm travelling laterally open up the racquet face.

[sharpy]

wow. good eyes.

yes i am just playing around today supinating to open up the racket face because I cant seem to find a way to correct the racket face so i dont get a "down and to the right" wrist position at the trophy....

[JCo872]

The number one source of power on a serve is pronation - the turning outward of the hand and arm on impact. You can have pretty lousy fundamentals, but if you get this right you can still crack a serve. This is why pros can warm-up at about 40% and still hit extremely hard serves. This is why you can hit an overhead that hits the ground and then jumps over the opposite fence. The torquing motion is like a mini atom-bomb in terms of power generation.

In Sharpy's serve, he isn't getting any pronation at all:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/sharpy_serve.php

[tricky]

Thinking it over, it seems the underlying problem is that in your takeback really is that you inadvertently turn it partially into a "positive" or "concentric" movement. I think one thing that bothered me was how your racquet face didn't really open up until very late in your takeback, and to me that seems counterintuitive if you were stretching out the arm.

I *think* it'll help just to keep in mind that you don't want the elbow to straighten in the takeback or as you set the trophy. The elbow will more bend more as you get to the trophy position, not lengthen out. And due to that, it will preserve the takeback as a proper stretch as well as prevent you from excessively "raising" the arm and then the hand/wrist.

BTW, Sharpy, did you say you were pushing 80 right now on the serve?

In Sharpy's serve, he isn't getting any pronation at all:

Yeah, the external rotation of his arm is off, so he's kinda slapping the ball down. I'm kinda hoping once the takeback thing is resolved, the pronation will start happening for him.

[sharpy]

Thinking it over, it seems the underlying problem is that in your takeback really is that you inadvertently turn it partially into a "positive" or "concentric" movement. I think one thing that bothered me was how your racquet face didn't really open up until very late in your takeback, and to me that seems counterintuitive if you were stretching out the arm.

I *think* it'll help just to keep in mind that you don't want the elbow to straighten in the takeback or as you set the trophy. The elbow will more bend more as you get to the trophy position, not lengthen out. And due to that, it will preserve the takeback as a proper stretch as well as prevent you from excessively "raising" the arm and then the hand/wrist.

BTW, Sharpy, did you say you were pushing 80 right now on the serve?



Yeah, the external rotation of his arm is off, so he's kinda slapping the ball down. I'm kinda hoping once the takeback thing is resolved, the pronation will start happening for him.

LOL yeah. 80's... even have a 90 once in a blue moon this is with maybe 40% of my racket drop

care to offer some clear cut solutions for that takeback?

[JCo872]

Yeah, the external rotation of his arm is off, so he's kinda slapping the ball down. I'm kinda hoping once the takeback thing is resolved, the pronation will start happening for him.

Gotcha. I see you all have been working hard analyzing the takeback and I agree that setting up properly makes finishing (in this case pronation) much easier and more natural.

[tricky]

care to offer some clear cut solutions for that takeback?So the basic things you want to about the arm movement
1) Primary movement: lateral (across the body)
2) Secondary: elbow starts to hook upwards (or moves away from midline of body)
3) Preserve elbow bend through the takeback portion. Don't straighten arm.
4) NO forearm rotation.
5) If this is working for you, the racquet face should open a little toward net, between ground and net and racquet tip should be pointed toward right side fence.

Best way for now is to just isolate that part of the movement (i.e. just work on swinging forward and coordinating with the hips.) Don't worry about the ball toss, trophy, or upward swing. Just concentrate on getting the shoulder rotation down (and keeping the front shoulder below the back shoulder.) If the rotation is correct, then you should feel as if your pinkie is pronating the racquet arm.

Gotcha. I see you all have been working hard analyzing the takeback and I agree that setting up properly makes finishing (in this case pronation) much easier and more natural.

I confess this is the first time I've really tried to do this through a computer. I admire instructors like you who can make these descriptions so clear without, you know, being "hands on." :D

Once you feel that this is good, then add back in the 2nd half of the service motion and work on ball toss and upward swing.

[sharpy]

So the basic things you want to about the arm movement
1) Primary movement: lateral (across the body)
2) Secondary: elbow starts to hook upwards (or moves away from midline of body)
3) Preserve elbow bend through the takeback portion. Don't straighten arm.
4) NO forearm rotation.
5) If this is working for you, the racquet face should open a little toward net, between ground and net and racquet tip should be pointed toward right side fence.

Best way for now is to just isolate that part of the movement (i.e. just work on swinging forward and coordinating with the hips.) Don't worry about the ball toss, trophy, or upward swing. Just concentrate on getting the shoulder rotation down (and keeping the front shoulder below the back shoulder.) If the rotation is correct, then you should feel as if your pinkie is pronating the racquet arm.



I confess this is the first time I've really tried to do this through a computer. I admire instructors like you who can make these descriptions so clear without, you know, being "hands on." :D

Once you feel that this is good, then add back in the 2nd half of the service motion and work on ball toss and upward swing.



okay, the first part of the service motion is taking the racket back laterally?

I think i do everything ok until its time to bring the elbow up...

1. bringing the arm laterally back. This is pretty easy, just kinda take the racket arm back a little further than your right hip...this is all done before the racket raises up (correct?)

I think maybe my understand of the proper elbow pivot upwards is a little bit flawed.

There is so many ways to bring the elbow up, but im not sure exactly which way.

[WBF]

Ohhh, sharpy is on hi-techtennis! ;) Congrats!

PS: It's awesome that you're working to improve your serve, and that these guys are so helpful. Wish I could learn from all the text, but it just goes right over my head :p

[sharpy]

lets try this i'll tell you what i think here

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p1.jpg

take arm back laterally. pretty much ok here just maybe a little bit more back, but that said theres servers who just start raising up from here


http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p2.jpg

shoulder starting to load up. still looks like im ready to hit a 140 mph here. only thing is the noticable wrist position

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p3.jpg

Things are starting to go haywire from here on....

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p4.jpg

take a look at the shoulder and you'll see that its not really loaded, whatever loading was taking place is all screwed up, maybe due to the down wrist position.
instead of the shoulder muscle being parrallel to the back fence, it is then perpendicular....

[tricky]

1. bringing the arm laterally back. This is pretty easy, just kinda take the racket arm back a little further than your right hip...this is all done before the racket raises up (correct?)

Yup. Remember, mantain elbow bend and let the elbow kinda slide upwards a little. It should feel like a stretch.


I think maybe my understand of the proper elbow pivot upwards is a little bit flawed.

Yeah, this is why the Sampras model is difficult to learn if you don't already know how the body sets up the trophy.

Basically, the idea goes that the pivot happens automatically when you combine a takeback with the body orienting toward the sky. In other words, it should happen automatically if the takeback itself is correct.

The reason is because if the elbow doesn't pivot, then your body will lose balance, and the way your front and back shoulders are set (and thus the shoulder rotation) will not be preserved.

In other words, your body will decide for you what is the "right" pivot motion. You just need to fix the takeback so it knows what you're doing.

[JCo872]

Ohhh, sharpy is on hi-techtennis! ;) Congrats!

Sharpy has a very good motion over all. I really like his rhythm and timing. I was just struck by the lack of pronation.

[sharpy]

thanks jeff.

if i could buy pronation i would :)

[WBF]

sharpy: it just takes time. You should be able to use it right away, but controlling your wrist so that the serve isn't wild might take a bit of time and practice!

I definately agree that this is one of the more important aspects. The knee bend mentioned above is rather silly in comparison.

[tricky]

if i could buy pronation i would

If you contact me, I can get you a discount to pronationenlargement.com. Satisfaction guaranteed! ;)

[sharpy]

If you contact me, I can get you a discount to pronationenlargement.com. Satisfaction guaranteed! ;)

sweet. how much would it cost so i can serve as fast as roddick, as much spin as sampras and with the placement of agassi?

on a serious note tricky would you respond to my post above yours a few posts back? your take?

[tricky]

how much would it cost so i can serve as fast as roddick, as much spin as sampras and with the placement of agassi?

No problem. Just sign up for our Service Viagra product and you too can dance like Roddick, have hair like Agassi, and have skin like Sampras. In 1000fps no less. Be a chick magnet like Federer or your money back!

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p1.jpg

take arm back laterally. pretty much ok here just maybe a little bit more back, but that said theres servers who just start raising up from here

So, at this point, Sampras's racquet face has already started to open up because he's already started his lateral arm takeback. In your case, I think you were rotating your forearm to open up the racquet face, which you don't want to do. But, otherwise, yes you have the right idea.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p2.jpg

shoulder starting to load up. still looks like im ready to hit a 140 mph here. only thing is the noticable wrist position

One thing you want to notice is how far back Sampras's shoulder is from the first clip. This is a key thing I want to point out, because in your frame, the shoulder is no longer going back and now you're pivoting the elbow on its own accord.

At this point, you may ask -- well, my shoulder can't go back further, how am I supposed to pivot then? The body. The body drives the pivot.

Sampras's body orients itself much higher than yours (front side straightens and stretches) and it bends around more. This enables the arm takeback to continue, except that now the elbow will pivot. In fact, the elbow actually "sinks" a little into the trophy position if you coil around properly enough.

Plus, as you coil your body upwards, this also enables the higher ball toss and the deeper knee bend.

I also want to emphasize that the front/left rib remains slightly bent, and the back/right ribs remain straight through the windup, takeback, and initiation of the forward swing. This helps preserve the "balance" between the shoulders and the shoulder rotation that you want.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p3.jpg

Things are starting to go haywire from here on....

With both Picture 2 and 3, because the shoulder has mostly stopped taking back, what you have now is a concentric/positive movement or a "lat raise." The elbow pivots upwards; the wrist follows the elbow, the hand finishes raising it. At this point, pronation will not really happen even if you throw the ball way over to the left because the shoulder rotation is incomplete.

So the thing you want to nail down is that the takeback of the arm is continous, that the takeback is primarily lateral, and that whatever goes on with the elbow is coordinated with this lateral motion of the takeback. The elbow is not independent, and the elbow does not do anything without consent of the body or the shoulder.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/p4.jpg

take a look at the shoulder and you'll see that its not really loaded, whatever loading was taking place is all screwed up, maybe due to the down wrist position.
instead of the shoulder muscle being parrallel to the back fence, it is then perpendicular....

At this point, you're still generating terrific power from your body (and you still get a upward swing), which is why you do hit the ball hard. But the arm doesn't whip and you don't feel like you're hammering down on the ball (i.e. pronation.) It again goes back to the same thing. The arm is primarily interesting in taking back the shoulder and making sure the front-back shoulder balance stays (which is helped by the elbow.) It's really the rotation and twisting of the body that will set up the trophy position.

In a way, the pronation itself is a reward for the rotation being correct. You would feel as if your pinkie easily slams the forearm down onto the ball, and that the overall motion is like a hammer coming down onto the ball.

Or to put it another scenario:

Say you don't twist your body upwards. at all You should expect your racquet arm to be no higher than sternum level before you initiate the forward portion (i.e. turn hips forwards) of the stroke. Even though the swing is wrong and will lead to the ball traveling forward instead of down, the rotation of your shoulder is correct. The elbow will still pivot around so that you will have a racquet drop. The actual motion of your shoulder is still correct, and you'll still experience pronation.

However, say you now try to simulate a trophy position by pivoting the elbow upwards at the end of your takeback before you initiate the forward swing. The hand is high at head level. The racquet drop decreases. The pronation significantly decreases. The rotation is off and starts to feel slower.

What this says is that the body dictates the trophy position and the pivoting of the elbow. The trophy position does not exist without the upward orientation of the body. The body enables it; the body drives it.

[sharpy]

No problem. Just sign up for our Service Viagra product and you too can dance like Roddick, have hair like Agassi, and have skin like Sampras. In 1000fps no less. Be a chick magnet like Federer or your money back!



So, at this point, Sampras's racquet face has already started to open up because he's already started his lateral arm takeback. In your case, I think you were rotating your forearm to open up the racquet face, which you don't want to do. But, otherwise, yes you have the right idea.



One thing you want to notice is how far back Sampras's shoulder is from the first clip. This is a key thing I want to point out, because in your frame, the shoulder is no longer going back and now you're pivoting the elbow on its own accord.

At this point, you may ask -- well, my shoulder can't go back further, how am I supposed to pivot then? The body. The body drives the pivot.

Sampras's body orients itself much higher than yours (front side straightens and stretches) and it bends around more. This enables the arm takeback to continue, except that now the elbow will pivot. In fact, the elbow actually "sinks" a little into the trophy position if you coil around properly enough.

Plus, as you coil your body upwards, this also enables the higher ball toss and the deeper knee bend.

I also want to emphasize that the front/left rib remains slightly bent, and the back/right ribs remain straight through the windup, takeback, and initiation of the forward swing. This helps preserve the "balance" between the shoulders and the shoulder rotation that you want.



With both Picture 2 and 3, because the shoulder has mostly stopped taking back, what you have now is a concentric/positive movement or a "lat raise." The elbow pivots upwards; the wrist follows the elbow, the hand finishes raising it. At this point, pronation will not really happen even if you throw the ball way over to the left because the shoulder rotation is incomplete.

So the thing you want to nail down is that the takeback of the arm is continous, that the takeback is primarily lateral, and that whatever goes on with the elbow is coordinated with this lateral motion of the takeback. The elbow is not independent, and the elbow does not do anything without consent of the body or the shoulder.




I think i'm starting to get this....

You're right about the 2nd picture where my shoulder "stops" taking back. But really is the taking the shoulder back a concious decision?

Because basically, I just think first about taking the arm back laterally back ( to first picture), and then to raise my arm I just think of pivoting the elbow up.
Am I missing something?? (in all honesty, I don't think about loading the shoulders one bit as i raise my arm to the trophy....just elbow pivot up)

[tricky]

But really is the taking the shoulder back a concious decision?


Mmm . . yeah, you have a point. One way to do this is to start the body, and then when you ready to start the takeback, gently nudge the elbow "up." (Similar to when you start takeback of a groundstroke.) Then as the body rotates, let it go back laterally. But, yeah, you still want the shoulder to stretch out until you're ready to fire.

Because basically, I just think first about taking the arm back laterally back ( to first picture), and then to raise my arm I just think of pivoting the elbow up)

To go along with that, see if you can set up the trophy without consciously pivoting the elbow. See what you have to do with the body to set up the trophy where the hand is about shoulder level.

[BeHappy]

Knee bend is worth 12%

12% of 100mph=12mph
=112mph

that's pretty huge my friend

If that isn't big to you then you must have a very big serve indeed.

and I must confess I didn't notice your lack of pronation because I didn't look at your videos but at your pictures, and the reality of the situation is that you have two massive flaws in your service action.

The reason your trophy position is different than Sampras's is as follows:

1)As I already mentioned, your shoulders are not in alignment with your tossing arm, which accounts for your racquet shoulder being in a different position than sampras's at his trophy position, which accounts for your racquet hand being in an extemely different position to sampras at your trophy position.

[WBF]

Knee bend is worth 12%

12% of 100mph=12mph
=112mph

that's pretty huge my friend

If that isn't big to you then you must have a very big serve indeed.



Emphasis mine.

Awesome

My pinky gives me about 7.39% increase. 7.39% of infinite is pretty much infinite, so 7.39% gives you pretty much inifinite power. Don't you not want infinite power?

In all seriousness, he has about as much knee bend as I do. I hit big first serves. Does this mean I could simply add the knee bend and generate slightly less than 150mph serves? I doubt it. I'll give it a try though, would be pretty cool if you turned out to be correct.

[BeHappy]

no, you couldn't hit 150mph, but you could definitely increase your serve speed by about 12%.

Imagine if Agassi had a 137mph top serve instead of 120mph?

[Solat]

thanks for the work Jeff, thats some pretty damning evidence of lack of pronation. Your software sures makes life easier then trying to pause/play/pause thru a youtube vid :)

[sharks195]

don't lose accuracy with your second serve! keep as much power in your first serve, but assure your second serve always goes in no matter what.

[sharpy]

don't lose accuracy with your second serve! keep as much power in your first serve, but assure your second serve always goes in no matter what.

excellent advice. I could of never thought of that one!! :-P

[sharpilistik]

Mmm . . yeah, you have a point. One way to do this is to start the body, and then when you ready to start the takeback, gently nudge the elbow "up." (Similar to when you start takeback of a groundstroke.) Then as the body rotates, let it go back laterally. But, yeah, you still want the shoulder to stretch out until you're ready to fire.



To go along with that, see if you can set up the trophy without consciously pivoting the elbow. See what you have to do with the body to set up the trophy where the hand is about shoulder level.

Still can't find a way to get it corrected. I've tried orientating to sky, back over front...

Could you explain the "nudging the elbow" a bit more?

On a side note, if you lead with the elbow, its hard to find a way so that the wrist isn't down and to the right, since elbow leading is where the wrist trail behind anyway right? But i know the 'down and to the right' wrist isnt correct...

[tricky]

Dude, Sharpy WTH happened to you? Got caught distributing free memberships to mashaxxxroddick.com? :D

Could you explain the "nudging the elbow" a bit more?

You know what, I forgot to mention something else that I saw in the pictures. Before you start up your windup, you want your racquet frame/tip slightly pointed toward the left. So when you start the windup, the elbow will move away from your body as well as upwards.

But i know the 'down and to the right' wrist isnt correct...

I'm having problems visualizing this. Where in the takeback?

[sharpilistik]

You know what, I forgot to mention something else that I saw in the pictures. Before you start up your windup, you want your racquet frame/tip slightly pointed toward the left. So when you start the windup, the elbow will move away from your body as well as upwards.



Is this the position you refer at the beggining when you have ball touching the racket 'ready pos'?

[tricky]

Is this the position you refer at the beggining when you have ball touching the racket 'ready pos'?

Yes, but you want to maintain that as you let go of the left hand. So when you take back, it's at a slight angle a little bit as if you were preparing to throw a discus.

Very similar to what you're doing, just start winding with the racquet tip slightly pointing toward the left or body, making sure the elbow goes upward and across the body.

[sharpilistik]

Yes, but you want to maintain that as you let go of the left hand. So when you take back, it's at a slight angle a little bit as if you were preparing to throw a discus.

Very similar to what you're doing, just start winding with the racquet tip slightly pointing toward the left or body, making sure the elbow goes upward and across the body.

Ok let me take a look at this. i'll post some more pictures in just a min..

wow its been a long day

[sharpilistik]

Ok here we are. tricky

what exactly are you refering to, let me know...

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a1.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a2.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a3.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a4.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a5.jpg
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a6.jpg

[tricky]

If you look at the beginning of a FH takeback, you'll notice that the elbow moves laterally away from the body. Then, as the takeback continues, the elbow laterally moves back in toward and sometimes past the right hip. This is natural part of arm rotation and it's something one doesn't think about. It just happens.

If you can get a clip of Becker, he does a very exagerrated version of this. Just watch how he swings his arm back and forth before his windup in order to "track" this natural rotation in his muscle memory.

Now, if you try taking the arm back while simultaneously moving the elbow toward the body, it doesn't feel natural anymore. It feels very awkward. This is kinda what you're doing right now.

Correcting this is very simple if you want to look for. Again, kinda imagining what a discuss throw looks like in the beginning might help. As you let the racquet go from your left hand, preserve the elbow angle/bend and the racquet frame being slightly oriented toward the left/your body. This helps to make the takeback easier.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a1.jpgThis is fine; racquet is oriented correctly. For now, notice the horizontal/lateral distance between your right arm and the right side fo your body. Notice the same thing with Sampras. Keep both as references.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a2.jpgThis is okay, but you may start noticing that as you're letting go, you're starting to bring your right arm into your body, and the frame is starting to orient toward the right. In other words, you're starting to consciously drop your arm toward the right side of your body. Whereas Sampras lets go, his arm is dropping along the natural angle created by the racquet frame and the hitting arm. In other words, he just lets it drop along its natural "slot."

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a3.jpgAs you take back the racquet, you consciously do this relatively on edge and the elbow moving toward your body. This constricts your ability to bring the elbow up and the upper right arm across the body. Notice how in the Sampras picture, his elbow has stayed laterally away from the body as he prepared to raise the elbow. Also notice how his racquet face is starting to open toward the net without forearm rotation.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a4.jpgHere, Sampras's elbow has finally come in. Notice how open his racquet face is. Notice how much shoulder turn he has now. Notice how close his hitting arm is now to the right side of his body. He's letting the natural rotation do its work, whereas in your situation, you're constricted and taking the racquet back with a positive/concentric movement, rather than a stretch.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a5.jpgThis is off-topic, but I wanted to point that ideally, you want to keep your head still from the beginning of the windup to the time just before your body tilts upwards (which is usually when the tossing arm has reached shoulder level.) This will help your front torso from opening up too much in the takeback and it will give you a deeper ball toss.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a6.jpgJust to reiterate, Sampras doesn't track his ball toss until his tossing arm has reached shoulder level. By doing this, he keeps his front torso properly oriented through the takeback and his front shoulder down.

In your case, your racquet face only starts to open up once the takeback is well under way. This belies the constriction you're creating because you didn't let the elbow naturally "come around" your body to load external rotation. Also, it looks like your front shoulder has started to come up (rather than stay low), so that the back shoulder can turn. So, now, the shoulder rotation is no longer correct. Now how Sampras's front shoulder has remained "under", even as he starts the ball toss.

[sharpilistik]

distributing free memberships to mashaxxxroddick.com? :D




Only free for you, tricky ;)

Very interesting observations relating to the 'natural slot'

When im trying the slot thing, it feels like the arm wants to straighthen out before the elbow pivots up, is this ok?

[WBF]

no, you couldn't hit 150mph, but you could definitely increase your serve speed by about 12%.

Imagine if Agassi had a 137mph top serve instead of 120mph?

It would be within 5 mph of 150, I would guess even more.

Where are you coming up with this magical 12% number?

I bend about as much as the day video in the op. Is that not a big knee bend? Could I be serving even better if I integrated a knee bend?

[tricky]

it feels like the arm wants to straighthen out before the elbow pivots up, is this ok?Generally not. It sounds like you're supinating your forearm, or you're drawing/taking the racquet back with the hand (rather than with the elbow/upper arm or shoulder.) When you take back, the elbow shouldn't straighten out. In fact, don't worry about opening up the racquet face for now.

Try practicing the takeback just holding the racquet with the 2nd, 4th, and 5th fingers. That helps limit unnecessary forearm rotation in the takeback. And, also, it's easier to "feel" for a proper takeback in that you'll more of a stretch along the edge of the arm closer to your 5th finger.

[sharpilistik]

Generally not. It sounds like you're supinating your forearm, or you're drawing/taking the racquet back with the hand (rather than with the elbow/upper arm or shoulder.) When you take back, the elbow shouldn't straighten out. In fact, don't worry about opening up the racquet face for now.

Try practicing the takeback just holding the racquet with the 2nd, 4th, and 5th fingers. That helps limit unnecessary forearm rotation in the takeback. And, also, it's easier to "feel" for a proper takeback in that you'll more of a stretch along the edge of the arm closer to your 5th finger.

Ok i think i got it now. lets hope that it works...

After doing it over and over i found that if you straighten the arm you cant really load the shoulder back as if you kept it bent and pulled out of the slot..

[BeHappy]

It would be within 5 mph of 150, I would guess even more.

Where are you coming up with this magical 12% number?

I bend about as much as the day video in the op. Is that not a big knee bend? Could I be serving even better if I integrated a knee bend?


dave smith of tennisone has done some research on this.

Have you ever seen a big serving professional with no knee bend?

don't be ridiculous.

[sharpilistik]

dave smith of tennisone has done some research on this.

Have you ever seen a big serving professional with no knee bend?

don't be ridiculous.

And also strange enough he is the one that claims to have served 90+ mph down on his knees!!

[CAM178]

Cool fireworks in the background of the night video

[BeHappy]

And also strange enough he is the one that claims to have served 90+ mph down on his knees!!

he serves 125mph standing up.

[WBF]

dave smith of tennisone has done some research on this.

Have you ever seen a big serving professional with no knee bend?

don't be ridiculous.


You specifically pointed out that the op didn't knee bend.

Perhaps you didn't look closely in the videos? The difference between knee bends the op gets and someone like roddick gets aren't very big. It might add a little power, but its not like the op isn't bending at all, just not quite as much.

[BeHappy]

it adds a lot of power, you are wrong, op gets no knee bend, his meagre knee bend amounts to sitting down instead of leaning into the court which destroys the kinetic chain.

[WBF]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ph1fuE8K_J0&feature=user

Is that not a knee bend? What exactly are you talking about?

[sharpilistik]

Hmm, it probably makes more sense if you've messed around with a 1H BH or an old-school closed-stance FH.In a "classical" stroke, the idea isn't to maximize your racquet speed but to put weight behind the racquet into the path of the ball.

If we were looking down at you from a blimp, in a classical crosscourt shot, your forward swing (and even your body) would go back in a straight line from the ball, and then travel in a straight line toward the ball. Once the racquet passes the POC, then it comes around and finishes across the shoulder. That is what we see overhead. Of course, there is also some kind of down-to-up motion with the swing too.

Right now, you're swinging across your body in the BH. You don't want to do this. Instead of producing that line form and toward the ball, you're swinging across the body, somewhat like a flatter version of a golf swing.

The smile pattern itself is designed to produce that line. It constricts your shoulder rotation, so that you only forward swing longitiduinally (down to up), not laterally (across the body.) This way, you avoid opening up and your driving arm (and thus your weight transfer) is allowed to extend into the line of the shot.

However, the smile pattern works when it's traced with the elbows (or the upper arms) and here only in the vertical plane. That is, no matter how much your hips and torso rotate, the U will always be in the same lateral plane. That means that as you take back, the driving/rear elbow will move away from the body, and as you drive through the POC, the elbow will also move away from the body. In both at takeback and through POC, the arm has automatically straightened out due to the elbow having moved away from the body. Alternately, the guiding/front elbow stays fairly tucked until the racquet passes the POC.

This might help:

First, using your racquet, imagine that you're tracing a big, big U on an invisible wall with the racquet tip. Your hands to guide the takeback and forward racquet. Notice how, as your body rotates toward and away from the wall, one of your arms will straighten, and the other will bend. Notice how your elbows move relative to your body.

Next, concentrate on keeping the back shoulder above the front shoulder through the whole U. You'll find that if you keep the left side of your body straight, and the right side slightly bent around the right rib, this will be easier.

Finally try tracing the U with the elbows, now trying to make the elbows move in a straight line toward the ball. Your stroke will look much abbreviated, and you might see "wristness" or a SSC between the takeback and forward swing. If you don't, you might be swinging around the body.

There are a lot of words, but really you're *THIS* close to getting the BH pattern down!


Tricky,

Im following up relating to this 2hbh advice. Ok, trying your progressions of tracing the "u" with the hand, I find the rear arm easily straightens out. But when I try to trace "u" with elbows, rear arm doesnt straighten out at all.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vEYr-IieAX8 hard to see but rear arm doesnt straighten out, and does go across the body

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VZ47_vyy-6o older video

[chess9]

If you want to see how NOT to serve, watch Razzano serve. :)

I'm watching her play Jankovic.

She opens up early, raises her hand up by her right ear, and hits a frying pan like moonball.

-Robert

[tricky]

Ok, trying your progressions of tracing the "u" with the hand, I find the rear arm easily straightens out. But when I try to trace "u" with elbows, rear arm doesnt straighten out at all.

Actually, that's okay. The key is that one of the arms has to be bent and the other straight at POC (unless it's a wide shot.) If the left arm is bent and the right arm is straight, you get a more driving shot (what Safin does.) If the left arm is straight and the right arm is bent, you get a very spinny shot. I should have made myself more clear, but I was writing that one quickly.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=vEYr-IieAX8

If you look at the lateral path of the ball coming at you, you want to take back the racquet in that same horizontal plane. As you take back the racquet in the U, the rear elbow moves farther away from the body. This is necessary because the body itself is rotating away from the ball in the other direction.

In doing this, the U that both elbows are tracing matches the lateral plane of the ball. Also the back shoulder stays above the front.

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

Heres the newest video. Im no longer supinating takeback, but still problem with trophy/wrist

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2nLDW7Tuwhs

[sharpilistik]

For good measures, tricky heres a back view

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rwwYy_b8nK4

As you can see, the shoulder does get loaded, but somehow it 'unloads' at the trophy.

I've added a nice knee bend for gorilla there also.

[tricky]

MUCH better!!! :D

Yeah, you're really close. Right now, you're still self-consciously pivoting the elbow because the elbow is staying too "high." When you set the trophy, the elbow should naturally drop, not by your own efforts, but due to the upwards lean of the body.

1) When you orient your body upwards, let your right elbow sink naturally.

2) At the same time, maintain the "high" or "loaded" position (or "raised" feeling) of the back shoulder. (Obviously, when your tossing arm goes up, your front shoulder will be above the back, but it's about mantaining the stretch on the chest/shoulder as you start establishing the trophy.)

3) At no time should the hand ever reach above the back shoulder.

[NamRanger]

Knee bend is worth 12%

12% of 100mph=12mph
=112mph

that's pretty huge my friend

If that isn't big to you then you must have a very big serve indeed.

and I must confess I didn't notice your lack of pronation because I didn't look at your videos but at your pictures, and the reality of the situation is that you have two massive flaws in your service action.

The reason your trophy position is different than Sampras's is as follows:

1)As I already mentioned, your shoulders are not in alignment with your tossing arm, which accounts for your racquet shoulder being in a different position than sampras's at his trophy position, which accounts for your racquet hand being in an extemely different position to sampras at your trophy position.


It's true that knee bend is very important, otherwise you're going to be using way too much upper body throughout an entire match with your serving. Taking 12% of the work off your shoulder/arm/torso is actually quite alot of work in reality, especially if you play a long match.


However, knee bend won't really help him if he doesn't get the right timing/pronation (the main key in producing a huge serve, that and great flexibility).

[sharpilistik]

MUCH better!!! :D

Yeah, you're really close. Right now, you're still self-consciously pivoting the elbow because the elbow is staying too "high." When you set the trophy, the elbow should naturally drop, not by your own efforts, but due to the upwards lean of the body.

1) When you orient your body upwards, let your right elbow sink naturally.

2) At the same time, maintain the "high" or "loaded" position (or "raised" feeling) of the back shoulder. (Obviously, when your tossing arm goes up, your front shoulder will be above the back, but it's about mantaining the stretch on the chest/shoulder as you start establishing the trophy.)

3) At no time should the hand ever reach above the back shoulder.


Yea. I'm still struggling with the hand being too high at head height.

I've noticed that in some servers, the elbow really doesnt sink. a guy that comes to mind is safin. could you describe how his serve/pivot works? From the videos, I see he uses a pretty abbreviated takeback. He seems to kind of 'come around' with his elbow pivot.

[tricky]

I've noticed that in some servers, the elbow really doesnt sink. a guy that comes to mind is safin. could you describe how his serve/pivot works?

Yeah, I've noticed that especially with the WTA players (though not the Williams sisters.)

As for Safin, because he pronates his racquet (i.e. inverts racquet) prior to windup, the hand will be higher on his trophy position, as if he was using close to an Eastern BH grip to serve. That said, his hand is still a touch lower than head height.

I relooked at the videos and had some extra notes:

1) You want to preserve the elbow bend as the forearm starts to go up. "Preserve" the elbow bend as you set up the trophy position.

As you start your takeback, you're good about preserving the elbow bend. However, as you start raising your forearm from the ground to about parallel with ground, you have a habit of extending your elbow again. Because you do that, the racquet starts to hang "down" on your wrist again. You'll also notice that any deliberate pivoting of the elbow will also prevent you from protecting that elbow bend.

Now, usually when the forearm climbs from parallel-with-ground to the trophy position, the elbow bends in more. However, "preserve elbow bend" usually doesn't interfere with that.

2) As you're settting up the trophy, remember to keep the shoulder "high" and "back." This should lead to the elbow naturally sinking, so that the hand is about head level.

Let me know how that works.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, I've noticed that especially with the WTA players (though not the Williams sisters.)

As for Safin, because he pronates his racquet (i.e. inverts racquet) prior to windup, the hand will be higher on his trophy position, as if he was using close to an Eastern BH grip to serve. That said, his hand is still a touch lower than head height.

I relooked at the videos and had some extra notes:

1) You want to preserve the elbow bend as the forearm starts to go up. "Preserve" the elbow bend as you set up the trophy position.

As you start your takeback, you're good about preserving the elbow bend. However, as you start raising your forearm from the ground to about parallel with ground, you have a habit of extending your elbow again. Because you do that, the racquet starts to hang "down" on your wrist again. You'll also notice that any deliberate pivoting of the elbow will also prevent you from protecting that elbow bend.

Now, usually when the forearm climbs from parallel-with-ground to the trophy position, the elbow bends in more. However, "preserve elbow bend" usually doesn't interfere with that.

2) As you're settting up the trophy, remember to keep the shoulder "high" and "back." This should lead to the elbow naturally sinking, so that the hand is about head level.

Let me know how that works.


:-? Wasn't as good as expected. Hand still remaining too high. Wrist position kinda awkward? This is really very frustrating.

[tricky]

Hmm. That should have worked. It's very difficult to preserve the angle of the elbow bend and at the same time pivot the elbow to set up the trophy position. Either the racquet ends up way too close to your head, or your elbow straightens out, which leads to the hand being too high.

Could you get me some time-slice shots of your takeback-into-trophy position?

[sharpilistik]

It's very difficult to preserve the angle of the elbow bend and at the same time pivot the elbow to set up the trophy position.
Could you get me some time-slice shots of your takeback-into-trophy position?


Arent you supposed to pivot the elbow?

[tricky]

Arent you supposed to pivot the elbow?Oh no no, not actively/directly. You're not supposed to directly left the forearm around the elbow in order to set up the trophy.

As you orient your body upwards, the right forearm and upper arm rotates as one unit around the right shoulder to balance the body (i.e. keep yourself from bending over and on top to the right.) The elbow actually dips a little bit on its ownm, and the elbow angle comes in. This is more apparent when the tossing arm and takeback are synced together.

In all the clips in the past week, you pivot around the elbow to set up the trophy. I've been trying to get you away from that, to find how to set up the trophy by coiling your body and lengthening the left side of your body (i.e. orienting upwards.) I guess there was a disconnect in communications. :D

Again, if you prevent your elbow bend from lengthening through the takeback and into the trophy, it should help.

This might help:

Take your racquet back as you normally would in a serve. Hold that takeback. Now, without *intentionally* doing ANYTHING with your right arm, lean backwards to look straight up above you. Watch what happens to your right arm.

[sharpilistik]

Oh no no, not actively/directly. You're not supposed to directly left the forearm around the elbow in order to set up the trophy.

As you orient your body upwards, the right forearm and upper arm rotates as one unit around the right shoulder to balance the body (i.e. keep yourself from bending over and on top to the right.) The elbow actually dips a little bit on its ownm, and the elbow angle comes in. This is more apparent when the tossing arm and takeback are synced together.

In all the clips in the past week, you pivot around the elbow to set up the trophy. I've been trying to get you away from that, to find how to set up the trophy by coiling your body and lengthening the left side of your body (i.e. orienting upwards.) I guess there was a disconnect in communications. :D

Again, if you prevent your elbow bend from lengthening through the takeback and into the trophy, it should help.

This might help:

Take your racquet back as you normally would in a serve. Hold that takeback. Now, without *intentionally* doing ANYTHING with your right arm, lean backwards to look straight up above you. Watch what happens to your right arm.

I know what you mean, but doing it is something else.

I orientate upwards, but I feel that all of this only automatically brings the elbow pivot up to a certain extent, like say 80% automatic then it kinda feels stuck there 80% of the way and I feel like I have to manually complete it to get into the full trophy

[tricky]

like say 80% automatic then it kinda feels stuck there 80% of the wayOkay, let's run through the questions.

1) Is your wrist still staying down?
2) How does your shoulder feel as you're setting up the trophy? Is it "low" or "high" (i.e. "raised"/"stretched")?
3) Do you continue try taking your shoulder back as you're setting up the trophy?
4) Are you sure your elbow bend is not straightening?
5) Is the elbow starting to dip?
6) Does the hand never cross above the shoulders?

Yeah it's frustrating, because once you have this, you'll have a properly functioning serve with proper shoulder rotation and pronation. Power and spin should make a huge jump once this is settled.

[sharpilistik]

Okay, let's run through the questions.

1) Is your wrist still staying down?
2) How does your shoulder feel as you're setting up the trophy? Is it "low" or "high" (i.e. "raised"/"stretched")?
3) Do you continue try taking your shoulder back as you're setting up the trophy?
4) Are you sure your elbow bend is not straightening?
5) Is the elbow starting to dip?
6) Does the hand never cross above the shoulders?

Yeah it's frustrating, because once you have this, you'll have a properly functioning serve with proper shoulder rotation and pronation. Power and spin should make a huge jump once this is settled.


let todays screenshots answer the questions for you, arm is remained bent, hand is high.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/ss1.jpg

you know the deal... up to 7

i will upload additional if necessary later

[heavyballa]

yo sharpy, you short,
you gotta hit up and pronate,
if wanna get the proper spin rate.

[tricky]

At SS3, it looks like the arm stretches out. Also, it kinda looks like the thumb-wrist line, which should still be almost straight, breaks. As a result, the racquet head should be higher in SS3.

It looks like you have the right idea for SS4 and SS5 for setting up the trophy. The thumb-wrist looks off again, but that's probably due to the wrist. If there was no issue with SS3, by the end of SS5, you should be near trophy.

[sharpilistik]

At SS3, it looks like the arm stretches out. Also, it kinda looks like the thumb-wrist line, which should still be almost straight, breaks. As a result, the racquet head should be higher in SS3.

It looks like you have the right idea for SS4 and SS5 for setting up the trophy. The thumb-wrist looks off again, but that's probably due to the wrist. If there was no issue with SS3, by the end of SS5, you should be near trophy.

i agree with thumb wrist and arm stretching out, I'm assuming i got into a bad habit with arm straightening a bit, but strictly keeping the elbow bend exactly the same feels very tense


heres a back view if you can see it
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rx-Nmxpa0vM

[tricky]

i agree with thumb wrist and arm stretching out, I'm assuming i got into a bad habit with arm straightening a bit, but strictly keeping the elbow bend exactly the same feels very tenseI guess I never had a problem with it, since to me, it's similar to groundstrokes. It just seems counterintuitive for the thumb-wrist to go from straight to bent. But if you are bending the thumb-wrist in mid-takeback, then yes maintaining the elbow bend will feel very tense.

Both the thumb-wrist and the elbow needs to be preserved as you go into the trophy position (though of course the elbow bends in a little bit more as the trophy is set.) It should be taken back as one unit.

I'll take a look at the video clip when I get home (which will be awhile.) I'll update this post.

[sharpilistik]

I guess I never had a problem with it, since to me, it's similar to groundstrokes. It just seems counterintuitive for the thumb-wrist to go from straight to bent. But if you are bending the thumb-wrist in mid-takeback, then yes maintaining the elbow bend will feel very tense.

Both the thumb-wrist and the elbow needs to be preserved as you go into the trophy position (though of course the elbow bends in a little bit more as the trophy is set.) It should be taken back as one unit.

I'll take a look at the video clip when I get home (which will be awhile.) I'll update this post.

ok. Sounds good tricky.

I'll actually go out there now and try out the thumb wrist and strict elbow bend with each other, video some and then i'll report back depending on the results.

[sharpilistik]

I guess I never had a problem with it, since to me, it's similar to groundstrokes. It just seems counterintuitive for the thumb-wrist to go from straight to bent. But if you are bending the thumb-wrist in mid-takeback, then yes maintaining the elbow bend will feel very tense.

Both the thumb-wrist and the elbow needs to be preserved as you go into the trophy position (though of course the elbow bends in a little bit more as the trophy is set.) It should be taken back as one unit.

I'll take a look at the video clip when I get home (which will be awhile.) I'll update this post.

i've got more clips, tried the thumb wrist but still same problem. let me look carefully to see if its straightening out now

screenshots and clips in a little bit

[sharpilistik]

I guess I never had a problem with it, since to me, it's similar to groundstrokes. It just seems counterintuitive for the thumb-wrist to go from straight to bent. But if you are bending the thumb-wrist in mid-takeback, then yes maintaining the elbow bend will feel very tense.

Both the thumb-wrist and the elbow needs to be preserved as you go into the trophy position (though of course the elbow bends in a little bit more as the trophy is set.) It should be taken back as one unit.

I'll take a look at the video clip when I get home (which will be awhile.) I'll update this post.

Ok. This should really help you

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/serve/tr1.jpg (to 10)

[tricky]

Sharpy --

In T3 and T4, it looks like your wrist is breaking neutral position and is bending forward. Why does this happen for you?

Ideally, the wrist needs to be in a neutral grip position, but with the wrist slightly stretched. For example, say you were hitting a WTA-style FH where the racquet initially is pointing straight up, the wrist should be in that position.

[sharpilistik]

Sharpy --

In T3 and T4, it looks like your wrist is breaking neutral position and is bending forward. Why does this happen for you?

Ideally, the wrist needs to be in a neutral grip position, but with the wrist slightly stretched. For example, say you were hitting a WTA-style FH where the racquet initially is pointing straight up, the wrist should be in that position.

Is it all in the wrist causing problems?? why is the hand so high at trophy??

[tricky]

Is it all in the wrist causing problems??It's just a really odd position to hold the wrist, because no stroke in tennis is like that. I guess it's again, to me, counterintuitive to try something like that.

The takeback and the trophy are eccentric/negative phases of the serve,. Meaning the muscles stretch back and away. When you have your wrist slack like between the takeback and setting up of trophy (T3/T4), the arm is less able to stretch. (You can verify this by trying the takeback with your current wrist vs. a neutral grip wrist vs. a very laid-back wrist. Not only does the neutral grip wrist enable a longer takeback, but so does the very laid-back wrist.)

Because the takeback is constricted, you end up doing some kind of raising or active pivot movement in order to set up the trophy, which in turn destroys the loading of the shoulder rotation. And any time you directly use a pivot movement, the hand will end up very high.

See if holding the racquet and setting up the trophy with just your 2nd, 4th, and 5th fingers helps improve the wrist and trophy position.

[sharpilistik]

It's just a really odd position to hold the wrist, because no stroke in tennis is like that. I guess it's again, to me, counterintuitive to try something like that.

The takeback and the trophy are eccentric/negative phases of the serve,. Meaning the muscles stretch back and away. When you have your wrist slack like between the takeback and setting up of trophy (T3/T4), the arm is less able to stretch. (You can verify this by trying the takeback with your current wrist vs. a neutral grip wrist vs. a very laid-back wrist. Not only does the neutral grip wrist enable a longer takeback, but so does the very laid-back wrist.)

Because the takeback is constricted, you end up doing some kind of raising or active pivot movement in order to set up the trophy, which in turn destroys the loading of the shoulder rotation. And any time you directly use a pivot movement, the hand will end up very high.

See if holding the racquet and setting up the trophy with just your 2nd, 4th, and 5th fingers helps improve the wrist and trophy position.

I think I get it. So right now my wrist is actually flexed forward midway between takeback? Will presetting the wrist at neutral at the beggining help? Trouble is, I'm not even aware im doing this during the motion.

[tricky]

Will presetting the wrist at neutral at the beggining help?Yeah, a neutral wrist position should be the default position. If you think about preserving the elbow bend, the thumb-wrist, and the natural wrist position, this is all pretty consistent with normal FH and BH technique. It's nothing new.

So, in short:

1) Keep wrist in neutral position
2) Thumb-wrist position stretched (i.e. thumb roughly parallel with forearm)
3) Preserve elbow bend through takeback and setting up trophy position
4) Right hand never above shoulder level
5) Upward orientation of body sets up the trophy.
6) Elbow will sink on its own accord as trophy is set

Trouble is, I'm not even aware im doing this during the motion.My hunch is that, for a long time, you kinda treated your arm as "just there for the ride." Most tennis instruction concentrates on the body twist, knee bend, arm toss, and "check points" like the trophy position and racquet drop. They kinda leave the takeback details to experimentation.

I'm kinda harpering on you with the racquet drop and takeback, because if you get that down, then you'll easily learn what "shoulder over shoulder" external rotation and pronation really feels like. Which is the whole basis of a functionally "correct" serve, regardless of other details.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, a neutral wrist position should be the default position. If you think about preserving the elbow bend, the thumb-wrist, and the natural wrist position, this is all pretty consistent with normal FH and BH technique. It's nothing new.

So, in short:

1) Keep wrist in neutral position
2) Thumb-wrist position stretched (i.e. thumb roughly parallel with forearm)
3) Preserve elbow bend through takeback and setting up trophy position
4) Right hand never above shoulder level
5) Upward orientation of body sets up the trophy.
6) Elbow will sink on its own accord as trophy is set

My hunch is that, for a long time, you kinda treated your arm as "just there for the ride." Most tennis instruction concentrates on the body twist, knee bend, arm toss, and "check points" like the trophy position and racquet drop. They kinda leave the takeback details to experimentation.

I'm kinda harpering on you with the racquet drop and takeback, because if you get that down, then you'll easily learn what "shoulder over shoulder" external rotation and pronation really feels like. Which is the whole basis of a functionally "correct" serve, regardless of other details.

Most tennis out there just sucks. Yes my coaches in real life all advocate just doing it over and over and "time time time" to get a better serve. "use your body more, legs, etc" Keep in mind, this is how he learned it. He was a former ranked 200 atp player. They just naturally discover certain techniques after hitting 10000's of balls and such. Needless to say, he quickly got frustrated with me focusing so much on technique.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, a neutral wrist position should be the default position. If you think about preserving the elbow bend, the thumb-wrist, and the natural wrist position, this is all pretty consistent with normal FH and BH technique. It's nothing new.

So, in short:

1) Keep wrist in neutral position
2) Thumb-wrist position stretched (i.e. thumb roughly parallel with forearm)
3) Preserve elbow bend through takeback and setting up trophy position
4) Right hand never above shoulder level
5) Upward orientation of body sets up the trophy.
6) Elbow will sink on its own accord as trophy is set

My hunch is that, for a long time, you kinda treated your arm as "just there for the ride." Most tennis instruction concentrates on the body twist, knee bend, arm toss, and "check points" like the trophy position and racquet drop. They kinda leave the takeback details to experimentation.

I'm kinda harpering on you with the racquet drop and takeback, because if you get that down, then you'll easily learn what "shoulder over shoulder" external rotation and pronation really feels like. Which is the whole basis of a functionally "correct" serve, regardless of other details.


Ok, tricky.

I wish I had good news to report but the serve is technically very complicated.

heres some more screenshots from today
http://geocities.com/mastamoda/r1.jpg to ten

I assure you i have been working hard on maintaining a neutral wrist.

[tricky]

Sharpy --

In shots R3-R5 (possibly R2), your thumb-wrist appears bent-in. By R4, your wrist is actually starting to bend in again.

It looks like the issue now is you're having problems reconciling the wrist position and the thumb-wrist. In your case, the thumb-wrist needs to stay extended (like your 2 handed BH), and your wrist needs to be probably more laid back than it is currently (though it's still relatively neutral.) I think you understand that intellectually, but you may not what is the "feeling" you're looking for.

AT the beginning of your serve, when you're kinda swinging your arm back and forth to "groove" the takeback, try to look for a "feel" where the tricep near your elbow feels most stretched. Start with the extended thumb-wrist, and then start laying your wrist back more and more for each individual "swing" until you feel that stretch. You should also feel something of an stretch on the outer part of the arm, and that your pinkie feels more "active." Then do the rest of the takeback. Also, this should encourage you to take the racquet back with your elbow and shoulder, rather than concentrating on the hand.

Basically, keep swinging back and forth, and working with the wrist until you find that feel. Once you find that, work on mantaining that feel through the trophy position.

[sharpilistik]

Sharpy --

In shots R3-R5 (possibly R2), your thumb-wrist appears bent-in. By R4, your wrist is actually starting to bend in again.

It looks like the issue now is you're having problems reconciling the wrist position and the thumb-wrist. In your case, the thumb-wrist needs to stay extended (like your 2 handed BH), and your wrist needs to be probably more laid back than it is currently (though it's still relatively neutral.) I think you understand that intellectually, but you may not what is the "feeling" you're looking for.

AT the beginning of your serve, when you're kinda swinging your arm back and forth to "groove" the takeback, try to look for a "feel" where the tricep near your elbow feels most stretched. Start with the extended thumb-wrist, and then start laying your wrist back more and more for each individual "swing" until you feel that stretch. You should also feel something of an stretch on the outer part of the arm, and that your pinkie feels more "active." Then do the rest of the takeback. Also, this should encourage you to take the racquet back with your elbow and shoulder, rather than concentrating on the hand.

Basically, keep swinging back and forth, and working with the wrist until you find that feel. Once you find that, work on mantaining that feel through the trophy position.

What do you mean "bent in" at r3-5? Is the thumb wrist still incorrect/not extended?

I basically just start with the wrist neutral "extended" then kinda bring the arm in with the tossing arm to the left hip and there is a downward component to this of course (which if you do this its almost impossible to keep a straight thumb wrist), is this messing things up?

From here, i basically pull back with elbow and then initiate upwards, but magically my wrist is always "down" and the hand becomes very high.

[tricky]

then kinda bring the arm in with the tossing arm to the left hip

Not sure if I follow this. Can you into this a bit more?

[sharpilistik]

Not sure if I follow this. Can you into this a bit more?

pretty basic stuff tricky. racket/toss arm goes together down then back up and the motion starts.

the point is: im asking, why in the world is my shoulder not loading like its supposed to? why is the wrist not neutral when I start out neutral? why is the hand so high?

[tricky]

Relooked at your back swing video. Okay, I understand now about the "arm in" thing and looking at the swing back and forth. I should have picked this up before, but I had thought this was solved before.

Arm (i.e. elbow) needs to move AWAY from the body when the racquet initially starts takeback (i.e. goes down.) The racquet tip should initially pointed toward the left side fence. And then, as the take back continues, the arm comes back into the body and then behind the hips. This is a natural part of the motion.

Basically, when you "groove" your swing in the beginning, it's just in the wrong direction. Again, just point ot the left side fence and follow the groove from there. You should, again, feel it in the outer part of the arm and tricep around the elbow.

This matters, because you're essentially loading the shoulder for internal rotation.

the point is: im asking, why in the world is my shoulder not loading like its supposed to? why is the wrist not neutral when I start out neutral? why is the hand so high?

Okay, so, the issue is why does the pivot motion with the elbow get initiated (thereby causing the hand to set up high?)

From the trophy position to the racquet drop, the forearm in the forward swing deviates or hooks away from the midline of your body. Now, typically in this trophy position, the hand is about shoulder level. This forearm deviation or hook enables it to "lift" the racquet just enough, so that it can drop comfortably behind the shoulder while the shoulder rotates. Next, this same "away" forearm deviation continues and causeds the swing to go "up" while the racquet is propelled out of the racquet drop. Finally, this same motion also enables the forearm to pronate while the shoulder is rotating.

Now, in order to load the forearm, so that it deviates explosively away from the midline (thereby enabling the swing to go into racquet, go out of racquet drop, and to initiate pronation all explosively), the takeback needs the forearm/elbow to move away from the midline of the body. Meaning elbow needs to hook toward the chest, or hook toward the waistline in the takeback (which of course makes no sense for this serve.) Now, if you initiate the takeback with the elbow initially moving away from the body (and racquet tip pointing "in" or toward your body), your forearm will deviate away from the midline. In other words, you've properly loaded the forearm, so that it can do its "in/out of racquet drop and upwards swing" magic out of the "low" (hand=shoulder level) trophy position.

However, that is not what's happening in your situation. Because you start the takeback with your elbow going into the body (and racquet tip pointing out), the forearm does not deviate away from the midline. It deviates toward the midline. As a result, your takeback doesn't set up the an "automatic" mechanism, which sets the racquet drop optimally and directs the upward swing. You find that you don't even quite have a trophy position, so that when you try initiating the upward swing, the racquet drop is poor and the swing doesn't go up very much. How do you solve this? You finish setting up the trophy position by letting the hand pivoting around the elbow. In other words, you actively "lift" the forearm just high enough, so that you can have an appropriate racquet drop when the shoulder rotates externally. In effect, this is a "corrective movement" added to the core takeback.

This creates complications. First, because you did not load the forearm to deviate away from the midline, even though you initiate the racquet drop, you still have to manually "lift" the racquet arm upwards out of the drop. Also, forearm pronation has to be initiated by you. But, the most crucial problem is that, now, the shoulder has lost a lot about half of its load. The load on the shoulder from the takeback to the trophy position is no longer there. The load that you do get comes from the trophy position into the racquet drop into the upward swing, or about half of the total backswing. So, the racquet speed isn't optimal.

But without that pivot motion, a proper service swing is not even possible. It's, again, a correct step for a hitch in the mechanics. It's not necessarily that the hand being high which compromise the shoulder load. It's that the hand being high is a sign that the shoulder load (and other aspects of the service) has already been compromised during the takeback.

[sharpilistik]

Relooked at your back swing video. Okay, I understand now about the "arm in" thing and looking at the swing back and forth. I should have picked this up before, but I had thought this was solved before.

Arm (i.e. elbow) needs to move AWAY from the body when the racquet initially starts takeback (i.e. goes down.) The racquet tip should initially pointed toward the left side fence. And then, as the take back continues, the arm comes back into the body and then behind the hips. This is a natural part of the motion.

Basically, when you "groove" your swing in the beginning, it's just in the wrong direction. Again, just point ot the left side fence and follow the groove from there. You should, again, feel it in the outer part of the arm and tricep around the elbow.

This matters, because you're essentially loading the shoulder for internal rotation.



.


Tricky,

not quite sure what you mean in the beggining "racket tip pointed to left side fence at start"

from what i see, the racket tip is actually pointed slightly down and to the RIGHT side fence.

are you refering to how the racket face(strings) are slightly supinated/ pointed to the left side fence rather than kind of on edge like me?
-------

goes up to 3 this time

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/l1.jpg -shows how racket "tip" is actually pointed to the right but strings are slightly supinated? (i know you said absolutely no forearm rotation but it certainly appears like their might be, look at safin's strings at start)

2- adds me on

3- racket and toss arm are now close to right hip.

[tricky]

not quite sure what you mean in the beggining "racket tip pointed to left side fence at start"

Ahh, I should have clarified that. Racquet tip should be pointing toward your body or "in." This way, when you initiate the takeback, the elbow initially moves away from the body and towards the chest. It's just a way to make sure you're properly grooving the takeback. You'll find that your shoulder turns much more this way.

Basically, right now, you're going "out-to-in" in your takeback. But you want to go "in-to-out" instead. It's not easy to pick up on video.

i know you said absolutely no forearm rotation but it certainly appears like their might be, look at safin's strings at start

Yeah, Safin pronates his forearm to invert his racquet, as he begins his windup. This was actually one of the things i was going to plug after this and some other issues were resolved. Roddick and I think Federer also uses it, so that they get more pronation in their serve. But, again, that comes after the foundation is set.

[sharpilistik]

Ahh, I should have clarified that. Racquet tip should be pointing toward your body or "in." This way, when you initiate the takeback, the elbow initially moves away from the body and towards the chest. It's just a way to make sure you're properly grooving the takeback. You'll find that your shoulder turns much more this way.

Basically, right now, you're going "out-to-in" in your takeback. But you want to go "in-to-out" instead. It's not easy to pick up on video.

.

I still don't quite get how the elbow would move "away" from the body initially. If you pull back with the elbow, the elbow would stay in that angle as it pulls back and i think the elbow would naturally just come back in to the body

would it be too much for you to draw an example of this on paint?

[speedtoburn]

He's right sharpy, don't ignore this as you have everyone elses advice.BTW, your hip extends if you are leaning into the court as you bend your knees, or to put it another way, bend your knees by leaning into the court.

It's also important that you point your arm straight up into the sky, this sets the angle/axis that your shoulders rotate at.The more vertical the axis, the lower your racquet will drop.Look at Sampras, his arm points straight up to the sky.Another thing is that your ball tossing arm which points upward to the sky must be in line with your shoulders, like this:

http://i17.tinypic.com/6o2uzns.jpg

which also ensures that your weight moves forward rather than up when your legs uncoil.


PS: maybe you should try using pictures tricky? more than a thousand words... ;)

Behappy,

That little stick picture is awesome, thanks for sharing!

I'm trying to get my serve down as well and I was having a difficult time following/understanding the terminology in the thread, the picture really helped, thanks again.

[BeHappy]

no problem, glad to help

[sharpilistik]

tricky???

you haven't deserted me here have you?

[tricky]

Haha. Nah. Image sites are blocked at work, so . . .

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4100/photo01dv6.jpg

I guess this is my stab at annotating one of the images. And, uhm, I apologize for sucking at this. :D

The light blue remembers the "slot" of the takeback. In yours, you're directly pulling back or from "out to in." In the Sampras pic, he's pulling away or from "in to out." The slot is more or less set by your racquet tip angle ("in" or "out") at the beginning of the windup.

Eventually, both takebacks go back in (i.e. the Sampras one is really "in-out-in.") BUT, in the latter, the elbow/forearm also hooks toward the chest. I tried to convey the differences in path with the darker blue lines.

[sharpilistik]

Haha. Nah. Image sites are blocked at work, so . . .

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4100/photo01dv6.jpg

I guess this is my stab at annotating one of the images. And, uhm, I apologize for sucking at this. :D

The light blue remembers the "slot" of the takeback. In yours, you're directly pulling back or from "out to in." In the Sampras pic, he's pulling away or from "in to out." The slot is more or less set by your racquet tip angle ("in" or "out") at the beginning of the windup.

Eventually, both takebacks go back in (i.e. the Sampras one is really "in-out-in.") BUT, in the latter, the elbow/forearm also hooks toward the chest. I tried to convey the differences in path with the darker blue lines.

LOL. that is probably the cheesiest attempt ive ever seen. but credits for your effort :)

So with the sampras picture, the light blue is the correct path? what about the navy dark blue, is that the "bad"?

[tricky]

Yeah. BeHappy is Picasso compared to me. :D

The light blue path represents the slot itself as you initiate the takeback. Again, the arm initially goes away and upwards from the body, and the racquet tip starts "in" or slightly toward your body.

The darker blue circle describes the overall path, which is kind of a loop tilted on its side. The arm comes across your body in a longer path than what you're currently doing, and at the same time the elbow is hooking upwards toward chest level. (With the elbow bend, thumb-wrist, and wrist position all static.) And, so, prior to orienting the body upwards and setting the trophy, the arm is pulled back and the elbow is close to or at chest level.

As I see it, the only real difference is that you just change your slot so that the racquet tip is initially pointing toward your body, and then pull back the arm following that slot.

[sharpilistik]

As I see it, the only real difference is that you just change your slot so that the racquet tip is initially pointing toward your body, and then pull back the arm following that slot.

^^
Wait is that what im doing now "incorrect"? or is that the solution?

[tricky]

Wait is that what im doing now "incorrect"? or is that the solution?

That's the solution. Right now, your racquet tip is pointing away from body (and the elbow is closer to your body than the hand), and you're pulling the elbow toward your body. That's shown in your pic, and it's "incorrect."

Instead, have your racquet tip initially pointing slightly toward the body (i.e. hand closer to body than elbow.) When you take your racquet back in that slot, the forearm initially moves away from body. This is shown in the Sampras pic, and it's "correct."

In other words, just flip what you're doing. I was trying to convey that with the grey lines. The other lines just represent what the overall takeback path would look like in 3-dimensions. Or, uhm, "3 cheesy dimensions" :D

[speedtoburn]

Tricky,

In the first picture of Sampras that you posted, he is holding the racket kind of oddly, almost as if he is scooping something.

I drew a red circle around that part that I am talking about, here's the picture:

Sampras (http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/39941/2001465153072075323_rs.jpg)

Why does he do that?

[sharpilistik]

That's the solution. Right now, your racquet tip is pointing away from body (and the elbow is closer to your body than the hand), and you're pulling the elbow toward your body. That's shown in your pic, and it's "incorrect."

Instead, have your racquet tip initially pointing slightly toward the body (i.e. hand closer to body than elbow.) When you take your racquet back in that slot, the forearm initially moves away from body. This is shown in the Sampras pic, and it's "correct."

In other words, just flip what you're doing. I was trying to convey that with the grey lines. The other lines just represent what the overall takeback path would look like in 3-dimensions. Or, uhm, "3 cheesy dimensions" :D

What about the guys in the bottom, their elbows seem to be closer to their body.

This is some real subtle stuff we're talking about here, so lets clear some stuff up, and I apologize for any misunderstandings

1. when i refer to 'racket tip' i mean the very tip of the top of the frame, and for that I see the "racket tip" pointed to the right actually for all the guys and especially the bottom two

2. for sampras and safin, i see their strings are facing to their body a bit

3. the guy in the bottom right keeps his racket kind of on edge and his racket tip is really really pointed to the right.

---
I have trouble seeing still how I can fix it by "pointing my racket tip" toward my body when in the first place i see the actual tip of the racket pointed to the right.

please clarify

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

In the first picture of Sampras that you posted, he is holding the racket kind of oddly, almost as if he is scooping something.

I drew a red circle around that part that I am talking about, here's the picture:

Sampras (http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/39941/2001465153072075323_rs.jpg)

Why does he do that?

no scoop here, please do not confuse this discussion than it already is. his strings are simply pointed a bit toward his body, i call this supinated but watch tricky call this no forearm rotation

[speedtoburn]

no scoop here, please do not confuse this discussion than it already is. his strings are simply pointed a bit toward his body, i call this supinated but watch tricky call this no forearm rotation

But Bio-mechanically speaking, is there a reason that he is holding the racket like that? Is there any application ot is it just "style"?

[tricky]

Sharpy
Below is another go at this:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3519/photo2je3.jpg

1. when i refer to 'racket tip' i mean the very tip of the top of the frame, and for that I see the "racket tip" pointed to the right actually for all the guys and especially the bottom twoI agree. BUT, in addition, the racquet tip is also pointed toward the line of the body.

If you draw a straight line (like your green liens)from the body, matching the angle of the left torso, they would intersect the green lines (racquet tip angle) that you draw. This indicates that the racquet tip is pointed toward the line of the body, or "in." The exception is in your case. Your torso line and racquet tip line would not intersect. Your racquet tip is pointed to the right and *away* from the line of your body (i.e. "out.")


2. for sampras and safin, i see their strings are facing to their body a bitYes, there may be some supination at the beginning of the windup to set up the "groove" of their takeback. Though in the takeback, they limit the forearm rotation. I also want to point that their wrist is in a neutral or slightly stretched position.


3. the guy in the bottom right keeps his racket kind of on edge and his racket tip is really really pointed to the right.Yes, his racquet is on edge (Agassi? <-- if it's Agassi, his trophy position is really high and a fun one to discuss, erm, later!) Even though his racquet tip is well to the right, its line still intersects with the line of his left torso (i.e. racquet tip orients "in.")

speedtoburn
In the first picture of Sampras that you posted, he is holding the racket kind of oddly, almost as if he is scooping something.

I drew a red circle around that part that I am talking about, here's the picture:Yeah, he does a little supination trick at the beginning of his takeback. It's actually Pete's secret to his racquet drop.

[BeHappy]

Yeah, he does a little supination trick at the beginning of his takeback. It's actually Pete's secret to his racquet drop.

Could you explain?

- agassi's serve was such a waste, he basically armed his serve, he could have hit the ball 140mph if he'd connected up his leg drive to his racquet drop.His racquet drop, interestingly enough, was as deep as sampras's

[tricky]

Could you explain?

Yeah, it's a neat little trick. At some point in the takeback (and you can even do this as you're setting up the trophy position), you supinate the forearm a little. Sampras does this as he's starting up the windup. You know you're supinating if the arm starts straightening out a little.

Lots of things go into the racquet drop -- one of them is that the forearm hooks upwards to let the racquet has enough room to drop from the trophy. It kinda works like a crane. The supination enables the crane to do a better job at this, and the racquet drop will increase a few inches.

It also essentially increases the contact point of your stroke. The racquet drop that you see is due to a significant bend around the mid-back (you'll feel a greater stretch in your mid-section.) When you initiate the upward swing, this bend will straighten out and cause you to "skyhook" your upward swing a little bit. In effect, it increases the "height" of the server by a few inches, and lets you hit balls at a flatter trajectory.

That said, if you try using the trick when you haven't nailed down the trophy position, it'll hose your serve.

agassi's serve was such a waste, he basically armed his serve, he could have hit the ball 140mph if he'd connected up his leg drive to his racquet drop.His racquet drop, interestingly enough, was as deep as sampras's

Yeah, if you notice, the pronation on his serve wasn't particularly good. Also, there's some things about Federer's serve that makes me go hmm too.

But service technique is still kinda "tribal knowledge", still kind of a word of mouth thing. I have my own preferences, but if you break down the biomechancis of each pro, you do learn a lot of the nuances. Takeback is kinda the "black hole" of the service game, but what people don't realize is that it keys off the pronation and even the degree of knee bend in your stroke. Most players with a strong knee bend have that due to a great takeback, not because they self-consciously stayed low to the ground.

Sharpy's serve isn't "wrong." He has a trophy position that a lot of players do have, and he uses a good coil and knee bend to generate the energy. In fact, going back to Federer's serve, Sharpy's serve is actually very similar in principle. The reason why Federer doesn't have to "wrist" his trophy position is that he starts supinating his forearm (which enables the forearm to deviate just enough to act as that "crane") when his body is starting to orient upwards. So, his trophy position is high compared to other pros but he's still able to keep the load on the shoulders. Now, the load on the shoulder isn't great; the pronation isn't as great as it should be; but the upward action of the swing enables him to put a lot of topspin and place shots.

[sharpilistik]

Sharpy
Below is another go at this:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3519/photo2je3.jpg

I agree. BUT, in addition, the racquet tip is also pointed toward the line of the body.

If you draw a straight line (like your green liens)from the body, matching the angle of the left torso, they would intersect the green lines (racquet tip angle) that you draw. This indicates that the racquet tip is pointed toward the line of the body, or "in." The exception is in your case. Your torso line and racquet tip line would not intersect. Your racquet tip is pointed to the right and *away* from the line of your body (i.e. "out.")

Yes, there may be some supination at the beginning of the windup to set up the "groove" of their takeback. Though in the takeback, they limit the forearm rotation. I also want to point that their wrist is in a neutral or slightly stretched position.

Yes, his racquet is on edge (Agassi? <-- if it's Agassi, his trophy position is really high and a fun one to discuss, erm, later!) Even though his racquet tip is well to the right, its line still intersects with the line of his left torso (i.e. racquet tip orients "in.")

speedtoburn
Yeah, he does a little supination trick at the beginning of his takeback. It's actually Pete's secret to his racquet drop.

wow. im still trying to figure out all this stuff about left torso and angle of racket tip connecting together...

so basically, in order to fix my situation where should i point the actual actual actual tip of the racket frame? to the right more? less to the right? on edge?

and then i'll just think about pulling the elbow back right?

when exactly in all of this natural slot stuff is a good time to begin initiating upwards???

[tricky]

wow. im still trying to figure out all this stuff about left torso and angle of racket tip connecting together...

Yeah, that's one of those small tweaks that can bump up the accuracy and power of a serve. But all that has comes after the foundation stuff is set.

I guess I'm kinda hoping that after all this torture I'm putting you through, you might see a 150+ serve. Coz, you know, that would be kinda cool. ;)

so basically, in order to fix my situation where should i point the actual actual actual tip of the racket frame? to the right more? less to the right? on edge?

Less to the right and start on edge. I suppose you pull "away" instead of "back", though if you watch yourself in the mirror, your arm eventually will go back anyway.

when exactly in all of this natural slot stuff is a good time to begin initiating upwards???

Pretty much same place you're doing now. When your tossing arm rises above your shoulder and your body orients upward, your racquet arm should already start setting up the trophy.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, that's one of those small tweaks that can bump up the accuracy and power of a serve. But all that has comes after the foundation stuff is set.

I guess I'm kinda hoping that after all this torture I'm putting you through, you might see a 150+ serve. Coz, you know, that would be kinda cool. ;)



Less to the right and start on edge. I suppose you pull "away" instead of "back", though if you watch yourself in the mirror, your arm eventually will go back anyway.



Pretty much same place you're doing now. When your tossing arm rises above your shoulder and your body orients upward, your racquet arm should already start setting up the trophy.



unfortunately though the hand is still very high.

haha tricky all of this nitpicking better be giving me that 150 mph serve or otherwise.....

[tricky]

Okay, so, checklist -->

1) When you pull away, does your elbow reach upper pec height? Does your hand move father away from the right side of your body? Is the overall motion similar to what one does while jogging?

2) Is your elbow bend, thumb-wrist and wrist all correct through the stroke?

3) Is the wrist bending in? If so, try it in a slightly stretch or laid back position.

4) Are you keeping your right trap down/relaxed? You shouldn't hunch it in takeback.

5) When you raise tossing arm, do you feel tension in your inner arm? (Good)

6) Are you sure you're not pivoting the elbow?

7) Do you think Tsonga will upset Joker?

[sharpilistik]

Okay, so, checklist -->

1) When you pull away, does your elbow reach upper pec height? Does your hand move father away from the right side of your body? Is the overall motion similar to what one does while jogging?

2) Is your elbow bend, thumb-wrist and wrist all correct through the stroke?

3) Is the wrist bending in? If so, try it in a slightly stretch or laid back position.

4) Are you keeping your right trap down/relaxed? You shouldn't hunch it in takeback.

5) When you raise tossing arm, do you feel tension in your inner arm? (Good)

6) Are you sure you're not pivoting the elbow?

7) Do you think Tsonga will upset Joker?

tricky,

tried to fix the 'wrist issue' and the 'high hand' issue but still not getting the results i want.

i've got some really high quality video but youtube is being a ***** so i might just use some screenshots instead.

[tricky]

If you can get send it tonight, then I'll be able to annotate the pictures with my . . uhh . . artistry.

[sharpilistik]

If you can get send it tonight, then I'll be able to annotate the pictures with my . . uhh . . artistry.

ok here they are

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/a1.jpg to 16

[tricky]

Yeah, off the bat, your racquet tip is still off and the takeback is still in the wrong direction. I think I'm going to have put together some separate pictures to show the motion, because there's just this fundamental disconnect over this issue.

[Fedace]

I hate to ask my own question on this thread. but Does anyone know a good in home excercise i can do to improve your toss on the serve. I have a very erratic and inconsistant toss, though my motion is basically flawless. i feel like if i practice my toss more at home, it will be better on the match day.

[tricky]

This is from the revolutionarytennis site:

A second toss drill, common to every pro, is to place a racket on the court next to the toe of your front foot. The handle touches your toe and the strings point out almost perpendicularly to the net, slightly off to the side. This one you practice with a racket in your hands, and when you practice "down together, up together" and release the ball you hope the ball lands on the strings of the racket in front of your foot.

[Fedace]

drill at home??

[tricky]

You can just put the racquet on the ground and go from there.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, off the bat, your racquet tip is still off and the takeback is still in the wrong direction. I think I'm going to have put together some separate pictures to show the motion, because there's just this fundamental disconnect over this issue.


ok tricky...lets hope your pictures can help this time:)

[sharpilistik]

So what's the status there, tricky?

need any pro videos or anything?

[tricky]

need any pro videos or anything?

If I could cite Tennisplayer legally, this would be really easy.

I'm almost done with some really awful stick drawings, but I need a few hours since I'm on something right now . . .

[sharpilistik]

, but I need a few hours since I'm on something right now . . .

dude lay off the drugs alright?

Just joking. Take your time...:)

[tricky]

dude lay off the drugs alright?

Shhh. Buddha is telling me how a smurf can hit a 160mph serve. . . .

The pictures will focus mostly on the takeback issue. Really, everything else is on the cusp.

[sharpilistik]

Shhh. Buddha is telling me how a smurf can hit a 160mph serve. . . .

The pictures will focus mostly on the takeback issue. Really, everything else is on the cusp.

still working on those stick figures?

I've got some more good video of fh/bh today.

[tricky]

Annotating the stick figures and sending them out sometime late tonight. They're not particularly good, but they're taking longer due to other commitments.

I've got some more good video of fh/bh today.

No problemo!

[sharpilistik]

Annotating the stick figures and sending them out sometime late tonight. They're not particularly good, but they're taking longer due to other commitments.



No problemo!


Didn't buddha teach you how to draw? I expect only the highest quality standards from you.

Yea, i've got alot more more fh bh videos from all kinds of angles today, hitting the ball really well. just gotta edit all the footage and hope youtube doesnt smother it all.

[sharpilistik]

No problemo!

ok tricky here they are,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3knuqroW5g (fh video)
am i still scooping? hard for me to tell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohNbMZYRwHs&feature=user (bh)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACN4mmXcmE&feature=user
both arms are still bent at poc? why?

[tricky]

Hmm, I need to slow down the FH clip but dang that looks like a good swing. It looks like you're properly dragging the swing. How is it working for you, so far?

[sharpilistik]

Hmm, I need to slow down the FH clip but dang that looks like a good swing. It looks like you're properly dragging the swing. How is it working for you, so far?

Pretty good actually. Decent spin decent power. My only concern though sometimes its not a really clean hit (mishits)

[tricky]

First off, here's the stick figure presentation in PPT.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S1TFDFMV

Superficially looking at the FH (obviously Youtube clips are harder to worker with), it's pretty close. Your racquet tip is pointing toward the back fence before you initiate the forward swing, which is not desirable.

Try one of these two visualizations:

1) As the racquet drops from gravity, visualize that the end of your thumb is still pointing toward the net.

2) As the racquet drops from gravity, visualize that the racquet head is coming closer to the right side of your body.

As for the BH, try these changes

1) Concentrate on tracing the smile pattern with just the left arm. Let the right arm go for the ride.

2) When putting your right hand/top hand onto the racquet, just use your 2nd, 4th, and 5th fingers.

Together, this should create strong left hand dominance. See if your swing less around the body. Once you're good with that, then

3) Concentrate on keeping your left shoulder above the right through the entire stroke. That also means when the racquet goes into the ball, see if you can keep the left shoulder above the right.

[sharpilistik]

First off, here's the stick figure presentation in PPT.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S1TFDFMV

Superficially looking at the FH (obviously Youtube clips are harder to worker with), it's pretty close. Your racquet tip is pointing toward the back fence before you initiate the forward swing, which is not desirable.

Try one of these two visualizations:

1) As the racquet drops from gravity, visualize that the end of your thumb is still pointing toward the net.

2) As the racquet drops from gravity, visualize that the racquet head is coming closer to the right side of your body.

As for the BH, try these changes

1) Concentrate on tracing the smile pattern with just the left arm. Let the right arm go for the ride.

2) When putting your right hand/top hand onto the racquet, just use your 2nd, 4th, and 5th fingers.

Together, this should create strong left hand dominance. See if your swing less around the body. Once you're good with that, then

3) Concentrate on keeping your left shoulder above the right through the entire stroke. That also means when the racquet goes into the ball, see if you can keep the left shoulder above the right.


tricky,

thanks alot for taking the time to draw out the sticks. although at times very hard to follow i think i got the general idea.

now no matter how hard you try to keep the elbow "away" from the body if you pull back you'll find that your elbow automatically DOES come back into your body. Right? Is this very much different than what im currently doing?

the only thing i wasn't sure about is the racket tip stuff (last slide?)
------
fh

I'm not sure I totally agree with the racket at the backfence stuff before the forward swing. i might have to post a few pictures.... basically i lose all the spin in the world if i focus on keeping the racket at a set angle the whole time. just naturally letting it drop lets me get the spin im looking for.

Everything else is beautiful, spin, power, accuracy. Just the problem is mishits. and a very chronic problem at that, giving me blisters...

[tricky]

now no matter how hard you try to keep the elbow "away" from the body if you pull back you'll find that your elbow automatically DOES come back into your body. Right? Is this very much different than what im currently doing?

Yeah, but it depends on perspective.

Say I am standing in front of you. You stick your right arm out to the right. Then you start rotating your torso back and forth, while keeping your right arm parallel with the width of your body. In other words, let your right arm match the rotation of your torso, but don't swing your right arm around.

To my eyes, every time you rotate toward your right, your elbow, hand, and shoulder comes back into the body.

However, to you, your elbow, hand, and shoulder is really no closer to your body.

In fact, however you move your right arm, I will always see your arm come back into the body as you rotate your torso to the right.

What I see in the above example is more or less what we see when looking at service clips, and the discrepancy between what we see and what we actually do is pretty similar. The torso rotation makes it tougher to evaluate, and that's why the slides show the takeback of the arm without the torso rotation.

Basically, work on grooving the takeback so that the elbow reaches close to shoulder level. You will find that only a certain orientation of the takeback makes this possible.

the only thing i wasn't sure about is the racket tip stuff (last slide?)

Yeah, that was to show that, if you were serving to the deuce court, your racquet tip can point toward the right fence and yet still point toward the body. You brought this up before so I wanted to clarify this.

I'm not sure I totally agree with the racket at the backfence stuff before the forward swing. i might have to post a few pictures....

Yeah, let me know when you chop up the pix again. I might have totally missed what you were doing in the takeback.

basically i lose all the spin in the world if i focus on keeping the racket at a set angle the whole time.

Yeah, just work on orienting your thumb toward the net as you let the racquet drop, and see if it makes an effect on your swing.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, but it depends on perspective.

Say I am standing in front of you. You stick your right arm out to the right. Then you start rotating your torso back and forth, while keeping your right arm parallel with the width of your body. In other words, let your right arm match the rotation of your torso, but don't swing your right arm around.

To my eyes, every time you rotate toward your right, your elbow, hand, and shoulder comes back into the body.

However, to you, your elbow, hand, and shoulder is really no closer to your body.

In fact, however you move your right arm, I will always see your arm come back into the body as you rotate your torso to the right.

What I see in the above example is more or less what we see when looking at service clips, and the discrepancy between what we see and what we actually do is pretty similar. The torso rotation makes it tougher to evaluate, and that's why the slides show the takeback of the arm without the torso rotation.

Basically, work on grooving the takeback so that the elbow reaches close to shoulder level. You will find that only a certain orientation of the takeback makes this possible.



Yeah, that was to show that, if you were serving to the deuce court, your racquet tip can point toward the right fence and yet still point toward the body. You brought this up before so I wanted to clarify this.



Yeah, let me know when you chop up the pix again. I might have totally missed what you were doing in the takeback.



Yeah, just work on orienting your thumb toward the net as you let the racquet drop, and see if it makes an effect on your swing.


Tricky,

So obviously with the torso rotation its going to appear like the elbow is moving into the body.

Now last night I tried this a bit to keep pulling the elbow back as far away from the body as possible, there was only a certain extent I could do this before it felt very unnatural. No matter what, eventually the elbow does move back byitself.

I forgot to bring video, but im pretty sure that im just going to let my elbow pull back on its own, and let whatever happen just happen. My rotator cuff was starting to kill....

----
According to the racket tip stuff, what if you were serving to the ad court? your racket tip could still point to the right??

Hopefully I can maintain that good spin on the fh side you''ll see a followup real soon.

[tricky]

Now last night I tried this a bit to keep pulling the elbow back as far away from the body as possible, there was only a certain extent I could do this before it felt very unnatural

Yeah, you should never feel like you're forcing something. Basically I'm just trying get you to pull back from a different slot (i.e. racquet tip initially pointed toward body.) Really, the main thing is checking your takeback has your elbow coming up "high" (i.e. toward the shoulder.) If it is, then you're doing fine.

If you have access to Kuerten clips, he's a really good example to observe this.

If this ends up not working for you, there is an alternative. You can continue doing your normal takeback, and when you're at the point where you're going to set up the trophy, you could supinate your forearm in order to set up the trophy. If you do this, the hand will be high in the trophy pose, but there will be no wrist issue and your shoulder will be loaded. This is similar to how Federer does it.

According to the racket tip stuff, what if you were serving to the ad court? your racket tip could still point to the right??

Yup.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, you should never feel like you're forcing something. Basically I'm just trying get you to pull back from a different slot (i.e. racquet tip initially pointed toward body.) Really, the main thing is checking your takeback has your elbow coming up "high" (i.e. toward the shoulder.) If it is, then you're doing fine.

If you have access to Kuerten clips, he's a really good example to observe this.

If this ends up not working for you, there is an alternative. You can continue doing your normal takeback, and when you're at the point where you're going to set up the trophy, you could supinate your forearm in order to set up the trophy. If you do this, the hand will be high in the trophy pose, but there will be no wrist issue and your shoulder will be loaded. This is similar to how Federer does it.



Yup.


So, do you mean the racket tip is incorrect at the initial starting position?

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/rtip.jpg (the same one used in the earler pics)

so should the ACTUAL tip be pointed more toward the GREEN/RIGHT OR THE RED/LEFT?

[tricky]

so should the ACTUAL tip be pointed more toward the GREEN/RIGHT OR THE RED/LEFT?Should be the red. Though the angle of that red line seems troubling, as if you intend to supinate heavily in order to point the racquet tip toward the body? Presumably you would also orient the tip of your elbow to point away from the body initially.

[sharpilistik]

Should be the red. Though the angle of that red line seems troubling, as if you intend to supinate heavily in order to point the racquet tip toward the body? Presumably you would also orient the tip of your elbow to point away from the body initially.

The lines just intended to show direction left to right. But I do see plenty of pro servers who do orient their ACTUAL racket tip quite alot to the right and even in the green direction.

[tricky]

But I do see plenty of pro servers who do orient their ACTUAL racket tip quite alot to the right and even in the green direction.Oh I know, and much tennis instruction from video sites is geared toward your kind of takeback and a higher trophy pose. It's actually rare to see anybody but pro servers achieve a "low" trophy position (and not all pros do), and moreso to see this actually explained, even though it's mechanically more powerful and IMO a more flexible/flowing style.

[sharpilistik]

Oh I know, and much tennis instruction from video sites is geared toward your kind of takeback and a higher trophy pose. It's actually rare to see anybody but pro servers achieve a "low" trophy position (and not all pros do), and moreso to see this actually explained, even though it's mechanically more powerful and IMO a more flexible/flowing style.

Yes, the lower trophy pose is much better looking than the higher trophy, but i think its way harder to obtain the lower one, atleast for me.

So are you saying by pointing my ACTUAL racket tip initally closer to the red, i can obtain the lower trophy?

You see as hard as i try to keep the trophy low, this doesnt feel natural and the elbow/upperarm just wants to raise higher.

[tricky]

So are you saying by pointing my ACTUAL racket tip initally closer to the red, i can obtain the lower trophy?All other things equal (wrist, elbow bend, etc.), pretty much. But there's kind of a disconnect there, I think. It's a very simple move but I'm just not doing a good communicating the "how" to you.

. . . and the elbow/upperarm just wants to raise higher.Do you mean during the takeback? Because that is exactly what you want. You have to let the elbow hook upwards during the takeback. That's actually the whole reason for this takeback, the elbow hooking upwards enables a low trophy position to be possible.

[sharpilistik]

All other things equal (wrist, elbow bend, etc.), pretty much. But there's kind of a disconnect there, I think. It's a very simple move but I'm just not doing a good communicating the "how" to you.



Very true. you have a very unique technical way to explain things. :)

Im pretty sure we are talking about a very simple move indeed.

As for the comment about the elbow hooking, this is not exactly what im doing. on the last videos i posted i forcefully kept the trophy low. normally its super high like federer.

[tricky]

on the last videos i posted i forcefully kept the trophy low.Are these recent Youtube videos? I don't believe I've seen recent serve videos from you in the last 2 pages.

Yeah, just in general, the takeback needs to have the elbow/upper arm hook upwards toward the shoulder level. Basically when you try grooving your takeback in the beginning of serve, you should look for this. If this isn't happening for then, then initiate the windup with the racquet tip more toward your body and the elbow more away from the body, then try again.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, let me know when you chop up the pix again. I might have totally missed what you were doing in the takeback.



Yeah, just work on orienting your thumb toward the net as you let the racquet drop, and see if it makes an effect on your swing.


Tricky,

heres the newest fh pics.

http://geocities.com/mastamoda/r1.jpg
/s....
/t....

we got the r's, the t's and s's going from 1-6 from different angles

[tricky]

Okay, it looks like in R1-6, your racquet drop begins when the racquet frame is square to the net. This is good, because it'll simplify the observations.

The key thing is that you need the racquet tip to still point toward the net when you drop racquet and start pronating. Or to put it another way, the racquet stays well in front of your hand through the entire racquet drop.

It looks like your racquet head is coming closer to right side of your body, so you've definitely improved there.

I forgot to mention something that will help you. In S1-S3, you want your upper arm to pull back across your body as the racquet drops, i.e. stretching the right pec and turning the right shoulder further. Kinda like what you've been doing with your service takeback. In S1-S3, your upper arm doesn't pull back, so you're obviously having a tough time orienting the racquet tipproperly while pronating.

If you do this correctly, the racquet should remain in front of your right hand, AND the racquet head will also move closer toward the right side of your body through the pronation and racquet drop. The visualizing with the thumb pointing at the net should help with all this.

Initiation of drag swing looks solid.

You're close man. Seriously. Just one more thing and your FH will enter holy s*** territory.

[sharpilistik]

Okay, it looks like in R1-6, your racquet drop begins when the racquet frame is square to the net. This is good, because it'll simplify the observations.

The key thing is that you need the racquet tip to still point toward the net when you drop racquet and start pronating. Or to put it another way, the racquet stays well in front of your hand through the entire racquet drop.

It looks like your racquet head is coming closer to right side of your body, so you've definitely improved there.

I forgot to mention something that will help you. In S1-S3, you want your upper arm to pull back across your body as the racquet drops, i.e. stretching the right pec and turning the right shoulder further. Kinda like what you've been doing with your service takeback. In S1-S3, your upper arm doesn't pull back, so you're obviously having a tough time orienting the racquet tipproperly while pronating.

If you do this correctly, the racquet should remain in front of your right hand, AND the racquet head will also move closer toward the right side of your body through the pronation and racquet drop. The visualizing with the thumb pointing at the net should help with all this.

Initiation of drag swing looks solid.


Wait, so you're supposed to conciously pull the upper arm further back???

Does this happen before the racket drop or during??

[tricky]

Does this happen before the racket drop or during??

During. The natural momentum of your takeback will allow this to happen if you let the pec stretch.

At racquet drop, visualizing the racquet head coming closer to the right side of your body, or the thumb pointing at the net. That should do it.

[sharpilistik]

During. The natural momentum of your takeback will allow this to happen if you let the pec stretch.

At racquet drop, visualizing the racquet head coming closer to the right side of your body, or the thumb pointing at the net. That should do it.

So its another one of those things that is supposed to happen 'by itself.'?

I did actually experiement with doing it conciously and it messed things up. ive basically messed with all kinds of stuff, im literally waiting...waiting for that heavy ball and power to come...

[tricky]

So its another one of those things that is supposed to happen 'by itself.'?

It does once you know to look for it. There's a certain whippy feel that you'll pick up instantly, which you'll "release" when you drag the swing forward.

If you don't let the elbow/upper-arm "turn" back (such in your pics) -- then your wrist probably won't relax (and the racquet frame couldn't reach near parallel with ground) while pronating and keeping the racquet out in front.

You could do this now with the racquet. Start at height of takeback and let the racquet drop while pronating the forearm, stretching the right pec, and observing the racquet tip pointing in front of you and racquet head coming closer to the right side of your body.

[sharpilistik]

It does once you know to look for it. There's a certain whippy feel that you'll pick up instantly, which you'll "release" when you drag the swing forward.

If you don't let the elbow/upper-arm "turn" back (such in your pics) -- then your wrist probably won't relax (and the racquet frame couldn't reach near parallel with ground) while pronating and keeping the racquet out in front.

You could do this now with the racquet. Start at height of takeback and let the racquet drop while pronating the forearm, stretching the right pec, and observing the racquet tip pointing in front of you and racquet head coming closer to the right side of your body.

Ok, I'll try these visualizations of racket head coming closer to body.

hopefully this works...

[tricky]

Again to reiterate, to make the racquet head come closer, upper arm starts turning back. You should feel a stretch in right pec.

[sharpilistik]

Again to reiterate, to make the racquet head come closer, upper arm starts turning back. You should feel a stretch in right pec.

I see that those two thing are related, racket comes closer to body at the drop, and upper arm pulls further back...

So, right now, why is the arm not pulling further back on its own? Is it because im not having the racket come closer to the body?

[tricky]

So, right now, why is the arm not pulling further back on its own? Is it because im not having the racket come closer to the body?

To be honest, it's a unusual swing pattern. When you get it down, then you'll know what to look for and it'll come pretty naturally.

Like, if you imagine a whip, your upper arm is the handle of that whip. When the racquet drops, you kinda take the handle back with the rest of the whip trailing it. And then when you initiate the forward swing, you drag the whip by the handle (the upper arm), and then everything catches up and "snaps" forward.

[sharpilistik]

To be honest, it's a unusual swing pattern. When you get it down, then you'll know what to look for and it'll come pretty naturally.

Like, if you imagine a whip, your upper arm is the handle of that whip. When the racquet drops, you kinda take the handle back with the rest of the whip trailing it. And then when you initiate the forward swing, you drag the whip by the handle (the upper arm), and then everything catches up and "snaps" forward.

Tricky,

The arm is still not coming back further in. I tried the idea of thinking of racket coming closer to body.

Any ideas?

[tricky]

So, the upper arm is not pulling back (i.e. crossing toward your right hip)?

Is the racquet head still in front of your hand?

Are you making sure not to pivot the racquet around the elbow?

[sharpilistik]

So, the upper arm is not pulling back (i.e. crossing toward your right hip)?

Is the racquet head still in front of your hand?

Are you making sure not to pivot the racquet around the elbow?


Well if you havent already, have a look

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FACN4mmXcmE (theres 1 fh in here)

[tricky]

At 0:03, roughly height of takeback, things looks good. But then you start letting the forearm pivot around the elbow.

That is, as you let the racquet drop and start pronating, your forearm starts to turn around the elbow in a clockwise direction. As if you were waving "hello" to the right.

You don't really want to intentionally wave "hello" to the left or right at all (a little bit happens counterclockwise or toward the left, but as an involuntary means to balance the shoulder turn and pronation) in the racquet drop. One way to help avoid this is to let the shoulder turn further as you drop the racquet. This shoulder turn pulls the upper arm back and enable the wrist to relax as you pronate the forearm.

[sharpilistik]

At 0:03, roughly height of takeback, things looks good. But then you start letting the forearm pivot around the elbow.

That is, as you let the racquet drop and start pronating, your forearm starts to turn around the elbow in a clockwise direction. As if you were waving "hello" to the right.

You don't really want to intentionally wave "hello" to the left or right at all (a little bit happens counterclockwise or toward the left, but as an involuntary means to balance the shoulder turn and pronation) in the racquet drop. One way to help avoid this is to let the shoulder turn further as you drop the racquet. This shoulder turn pulls the upper arm back and enable the wrist to relax as you pronate the forearm.


What do you mean, "let the shoulder turn further as you drop the racket?" isnt all the shoulder turn supposed to be completed once the nondominant hand lets go of the racket?

how can you tell im intentionally waving "hello?"

[tricky]

how can you tell im intentionally waving "hello?"As the racquet starts to drop, the hand is still moving back quickly, rather than with the rest of the arm as a unit. The hand has move quickly behind the elbow before most of the racquet drop has occurred. This can only be because the forearm is pivoting around the elbow. Again, for this simmplified style, the racquet should stay in front of the hand. That includes avoiding the forearm pivoting around the elbow. This itself is consistent with overall "pull" FH technique, and so you can go practice the plain vannila pull stroke to kinda remember what not pivoting the elbow should feel like.

What do you mean, "let the shoulder turn further as you drop the racket?" isnt all the shoulder turn supposed to be completed once the nondominant hand lets go of the racket?The active shoulder turn (or shoulder turn initiated by the player) is usually completed at height of takeback. During the racquet drop, usually some shoulder turn still occurs by gravity and natural shoulder rotation. Though it's not initiated by the player. In this stroke, it's part of bringing the pulling the upper arm back, so that the racquet head comes closer to the body.

Now, if you're pivoting around the elbow, then the above doesn't happen. So try working at that elbow issue first, and see where it takes you.

[user92626]

If a picture worths a thousand words, a video would worth ...many many thousands ...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2082503&postcount=36

[sharpilistik]

As the racquet starts to drop, the hand is still moving back quickly, rather than with the rest of the arm as a unit. The hand has move quickly behind the elbow before most of the racquet drop has occurred. This can only be because the forearm is pivoting around the elbow. Again, for this simmplified style, the racquet should stay in front of the hand. That includes avoiding the forearm pivoting around the elbow. This itself is consistent with overall "pull" FH technique, and so you can go practice the plain vannila pull stroke to kinda remember what not pivoting the elbow should feel like.

The active shoulder turn (or shoulder turn initiated by the player) is usually completed at height of takeback. During the racquet drop, usually some shoulder turn still occurs by gravity and natural shoulder rotation. Though it's not initiated by the player. In this stroke, it's part of bringing the pulling the upper arm back, so that the racquet head comes closer to the body.

Now, if you're pivoting around the elbow, then the above doesn't happen. So try working at that elbow issue first, and see where it takes you.

I agree...damn you have a good eye.:)

Now with the thing about avoiding pivoting around the forearm, that's tough to do. i might try the 1/3/4 finger excersise, i may have gotten into a bad habit from messing around with all different types of strokes..

[montx]

To me you look like talent in the making.

Keep it up!

[tricky]

Now with the thing about avoiding pivoting around the forearm, that's tough to do. i might try the 1/3/4 finger excersise, i may have gotten into a bad habit from messing around with all different types of strokes.It's a really interesting FH during the racquet drop. As the racquet drops, the racquet head and hitting arm go back, as a normal FH would. BUT, the head goes back much, much slower than the hitting arm. As a result, at end of takeback, the racquet head is much more in front of the hand and hitting arm than it was at the beginning of the takeback. When you initiate the forward drag swing, the effect is very, very whippy. This is the opposite of what you're accustomed to, where the racquet head moves back faster than the rest of the arm in the takeback.

In any case, just work on keeping the racquet tip pointing at net, the thumb pointing at net, the racquet (for now) in front of the hand, and the upper arm pulling back (or shoulder turning a little) to bring the racquet head in. All of it ties back to pronating the forearm and preventing the forearm from pivoting as you're doing.

[sharpilistik]

To be honest, it's a unusual swing pattern. When you get it down, then you'll know what to look for and it'll come pretty naturally.

Like, if you imagine a whip, your upper arm is the handle of that whip. When the racquet drops, you kinda take the handle back with the rest of the whip trailing it. And then when you initiate the forward swing, you drag the whip by the handle (the upper arm), and then everything catches up and "snaps" forward.

Tricky,

Im still trying to get this to work. this is basically the last issue left (arm not coming back in)

Its interesting that you mention a whip. When you drag your forward swing, do you do this with your hand dragging the racket or would you use your upperarm shoulder to drag the racket forward?

[tricky]

When you drag your forward swing, do you do this with your hand dragging the racket or would you use your upperarm shoulder to drag the racket forward?

The upperarm shoulder -- but that itself is a sign that the takeback is working. I think in your current situation, you probably do it from the hand, because it would be too awkward to do it any other way.

Im still trying to get this to work. this is basically the last issue left (arm not coming back in)

Just speculation, but you may be self-consciously trying to straighten the arm. That might be throwing you off. If you are, remember that you should never actually try to straighten the arm -- it happens due to the other elements.

[sharpilistik]

The upperarm shoulder -- but that itself is a sign that the takeback is working. I think in your current situation, you probably do it from the hand, because it would be too awkward to do it any other way.



Just speculation, but you may be self-consciously trying to straighten the arm. That might be throwing you off. If you are, remember that you should never actually try to straighten the arm -- it happens due to the other elements.

yes indeed i do drag it by the hand. how did you know?

i dont really think im trying to purposely straighten the arm. but sometimes i do find some difficulty in that the racket doesnt feel like it wants to drop down by itself

[tricky]

yes indeed i do drag it by the hand. how did you know?

From the last clip, your forearm was pivoting during the takeback. Once your forearm starts pivoting, the inclination is to straighten out the "thumb-wrist" (i.e. ulnar deviation, or roll your hand toward side of pinkie.) If this happens, because it's so late in the takeback, then your hand would lead the forward swing. This would happen whether you were executing a regular forward swing or dragging the swing.

This is just for visual reference, but between the height of takeback and about 75% of the racquet drop, the racquet face stays at roughly similar angle through it. Not only that, but if you drew a line from the height of takeback to that 75% drop point, the racquet head falls almost parallel to that line, not in a circle. That's only possible because the forearm doesn't pivot.

but sometimes i do find some difficulty in that the racket doesnt feel like it wants to drop down by itself

Is your elbow hooking up/counterclockwise (away from the midline of the body) during the racquet drop? If so, that would cause a problem.

Midline in this context means a horizontal plane (i.e. parallel with ground) through your sternum (not waist.)

[sharpilistik]

From the last clip, your forearm was pivoting during the takeback. Once your forearm starts pivoting, the inclination is to straighten out the "thumb-wrist" (i.e. ulnar deviation, or roll your hand toward side of pinkie.) If this happens, because it's so late in the takeback, then your hand would lead the forward swing. This would happen whether you were executing a regular forward swing or dragging the swing.

This is just for visual reference, but between the height of takeback and about 75% of the racquet drop, the racquet face stays at roughly similar angle through it. Not only that, but if you drew a line from the height of takeback to that 75% drop point, the racquet head falls almost parallel to that line, not in a circle. That's only possible because the forearm doesn't pivot.



Is your elbow hooking up/counterclockwise (away from the midline of the body) during the racquet drop? If so, that would cause a problem.

Midline in this context means a horizontal plane (i.e. parallel with ground) through your sternum (not waist.)


So.... was the thumb wrist straightening in the last clip as well?

I do find it hard to avoid pivoting around the forearm, at some time or another after the height of takeback, how could you not do a pivot?

do you have any particular visualizations or tricks i can do to avoid pivoting around the forearm?

[tricky]

do you have any particular visualizations or tricks i can do to avoid pivoting around the forearm?

It started toward the end, because you were also trying to relax the wrist (which itself is correct.) If you pivot around the forearm and preserve that thumb-wrist, your wrist cannot go into a neutral position.

do you have any particular visualizations or tricks i can do to avoid pivoting around the forearm?I would try looking at a mirror, and then see if I can drop the racquet while keeping the racquet head falling at, say, a 45 degrees angle through 75% of the drop. Only way this is possible in this stroke is if you remember not to pronate.

When I mean by angle, I mean that the racquet head would drop at a straight angle (and racquet face doesn't change), while you pronate. If you can find side-clips of Federer (there's a good slo-mo one from Wimbledon on Youtube) or Nadal, you'll notice this. It's kinda strange when you first notice it.

[sharpilistik]

I would try looking at a mirror, and then see if I can drop the racquet while keeping the racquet head falling at, say, a 45 degrees angle through 75% of the drop. Only way this is possible in this stroke is if you remember not to pronate.

When I mean by angle, I mean that the racquet head would drop at a straight angle (and racquet face doesn't change), while you pronate. If you can find side-clips of Federer (there's a good slo-mo one from Wimbledon on Youtube) or Nadal, you'll notice this. It's kinda strange when you first notice it.

so right now, my racket drop angle doesnt maintain the same?

btw, i know exactly what you mean when you talk about the potential whippy spin and power. its absolutely nuts. i get a day like this maybe once every 2 weeks. this may be when i accidently did the stroke right. but i cant consistently call it up.

[tricky]

so right now, my racket drop angle doesn't maintain the same?Not at this time. Basically, watch your racquet head as you let the racquet drop. It's currently traveling in a kind of semi-circle path. See if you can make that path instead a straight line for about 75% of the drop.

I guess another thing you can try is to drag from the height of takeback (using your upper arm to drag), and then drop and pronate a little bit more each time, to see where the forearm starts to pivot. And this might help out with you kinda getting better sense of the upper arm coming in.

[sharpilistik]

Not at this time. Basically, watch your racquet head as you let the racquet drop. It's currently traveling in a kind of semi-circle path. See if you can make that path instead a straight line for about 75% of the drop.

I guess another thing you can try is to drag from the height of takeback (using your upper arm to drag), and then drop and pronate a little bit more each time, to see where the forearm starts to pivot. And this might help out with you kinda getting better sense of the upper arm coming in.

Tricky,

Here's the newest fh video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8basAqTbFI

Still having the issue with the arm not naturally coming back in. Any ideas?

[BeHappy]

Tricky,

Here's the newest fh video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8basAqTbFI

Still having the issue with the arm not naturally coming back in. Any ideas?

split step? ;)

[sharpilistik]

split step? ;)

Haha...

Just to let you know, Gorilla, I agree with you with that retro serve video.

[tricky]

split step?

Sharpy needs to split step, gravity step, crossover step, do a fox-trot and finally into the souljaboy sit and lift. I think this is what I learned from the footwork threads. ;)

Still having the issue with the arm not naturally coming back in. Any ideas?

When you pronate your forearm, are you turning your hand counterclockwise around your wrist (i.e. turning the door knob), or are you rotating your forearm and hand counterclockwise as one unit?

[sharpilistik]

Sharpy needs to split step, gravity step, crossover step, do a fox-trot and finally into the souljaboy sit and lift. I think this is what I learned from the footwork threads. ;)



When you pronate your forearm, are you turning your hand counterclockwise around your wrist (i.e. turning the door knob), or are you rotating your forearm and hand counterclockwise as one unit?

I think i am rotating the wrist only (which naturally leads to the forearm rotating too..,right?). why?

You know, I am just so tempted to correct this problem by purposely dragging the upper arm manually back more, but I know that will mess everything up.

[BeHappy]

Sharpy needs to split step, gravity step, crossover step, do a fox-trot and finally into the souljaboy sit and lift. I think this is what I learned from the footwork threads. ;)


haha lol ;)

Sharpy needs to pronate his ankle about an eliptical orbit, while at the same time supinating his face, it's a bit like doing an inverted moonwalk while eating a lemon.

that's what I learned from this thread ;)

[BeHappy]

Haha...

Just to let you know, Gorilla, I agree with you with that retro serve video.

Thanks, that means a lot to me.

[tricky]

Sharpy needs to pronate his ankle about an eliptical orbit, while at the same time supinating his face, it's a bit like doing an inverted moonwalk while eating a lemon.

Exactly. The Michael Jackson Albino Forehand is the greatest weapon of all.

I think i am rotating the wrist only

Yeaaaahhhhh. . . that's not the right way to rotate the forearm (supinate, pronate, etc.) :D If you turn the racquet around the wrist (i.e. turning a doorknob), then yeah you'll instintively start pivoting around the elbow.

If you try rotating the forearm around the elbow itself, then the pivoting problem will be easier to fix.

[sharpilistik]

Exactly. The Michael Jackson Albino Forehand is the greatest weapon of all.



Yeaaaahhhhh. . . that's not the right way to rotate the forearm (supinate, pronate, etc.) :D If you turn the racquet around the wrist (i.e. turning a doorknob), then yeah you'll instintively start pivoting around the elbow.

If you try rotating the forearm around the elbow itself, then the pivoting problem will be easier to fix.

I always did it like turning the "door knob." Didn't know that was incorrect

[tricky]

I always did it like turning the "door knob." Didn't know that was incorrect

Yeah, that's not uncommon. Turning the wrist does rotate the forearm, but it screws up the swing pattern itself.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, that's not uncommon. Turning the wrist does rotate the forearm, but it screws up the swing pattern itself.

So, instead, i should think of rotating the actual forearm and let that rotate the wrist along? should i rotate all the way or..?

[tricky]

So, instead, i should think of rotating the actual forearm and let that rotate the wrist along?

Pretty much.

[wihamilton]

Sharpy,

Here's my analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzyz8fwebUk

BTW, I say at the end that you need to hit ~100k balls on the ball machine. My buddy said you could misinterpret that as a slight so I wanted to mention it in advance. I was making a more general point that developing correct technique takes hitting tons of balls. It probably took Federer a million+ to get his forehand.

Anyway, hope this helps. Not sure about the format so let me know if something is confusing / doesn't work.

[Mike Cottrill]

Sharpy,

Here's my analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzyz8fwebUk

BTW, I say at the end that you need to hit ~100k balls on the ball machine. My buddy said you could misinterpret that as a slight so I wanted to mention it in advance. I was making a more general point that developing correct technique takes hitting tons of balls. It probably took Federer a million+ to get his forehand.

Anyway, hope this helps. Not sure about the format so let me know if something is confusing / doesn't work.

Nice analysis

[sharpilistik]

Sharpy,

Here's my analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzyz8fwebUk

BTW, I say at the end that you need to hit ~100k balls on the ball machine. My buddy said you could misinterpret that as a slight so I wanted to mention it in advance. I was making a more general point that developing correct technique takes hitting tons of balls. It probably took Federer a million+ to get his forehand.

Anyway, hope this helps. Not sure about the format so let me know if something is confusing / doesn't work.


Will,

Thanks for the analysis. I agree with the part about being off balance, but somehow the machine was feeding sidespin low balls which was hard to time on the clay.

As for the windshield wiper, i did in fact start out with a classic finish but eventually started learning the wiper.

heres how i look when im hitting my best. unfortunately i can't get this type of hit all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3knuqroW5g&feature=related

[wihamilton]

Sharpy,

Those forehands do look a lot better. Higher follow through / arm and body seem to be working together more.

The problem with trying to hit a WW, or any shot that requires a lot of racket head speed, is that if your mechanics aren't completely sound you won't be consistent. It's not just a matter of hitting a ton of balls -- you have to do it with the correct technique. Otherwise, you'll be reinforcing bad habits.

Again, I would lock up the "boring, classic forehand" (heh) before focusing on the advanced stuff.

[sharpilistik]

Ok tricky,

I posted some bh vids/pics up

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T0CF-dsFeOI

http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/h1.jpg (to 10 you know the format)

so close....so close....

heres an additional video, mostly slices but you can critique that too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_INrcTGb2Q

[tricky]

BH takeback looks okay, but the footwork's off. Often you're not stepping out with foot closest to ball. And when you do, the steps are not moving into the court.

The problem looks like the sequencing between the legs and hips. What you're doing is first setting your back foot and then turning the hips to load your swing. But the actual sequence on the BH wing is the other way around. Hip turn starts first and helps to key off the step-out. You'll find doing this helps you transfer your weight into the shot. And, it should set up a straighter left arm in the POC.

This is pretty easy to fix. Out of the split step, remember to turn your hip and then step out with foot closest to ball. You'll find that if you try a cross over step, your torso will no longer be facing the net.

[sharpilistik]

BH takeback looks okay, but the footwork's off. Often you're not stepping out with foot closest to ball. And when you do, the steps are not moving into the court.

The problem looks like the sequencing between the legs and hips. What you're doing is first setting your back foot and then turning the hips to load your swing. But the actual sequence on the BH wing is the other way around. Hip turn starts first and helps to key off the step-out. You'll find doing this helps you transfer your weight into the shot. And, it should set up a straighter left arm in the POC.

This is pretty easy to fix. Out of the split step, remember to turn your hip and then step out with foot closest to ball. You'll find that if you try a cross over step, your torso will no longer be facing the net.

So.... the order is to step out with foot closest first right? what's all this stuff about turning the hips before you step out your closest foot?

what "steps are not moving into the court?"

Have anything to say about the takeback?

[tricky]

what "steps are not moving into the court?"

Sometimes you step out with foot closest to ball, but you're not really stepping "out." The foot should stay in front of your body unless you're doing something like a gravity step.

what's all this stuff about turning the hips before you step out your closest foot?

The hip turn and a step out goes together. It helps transfer your weight onto that step and your future steps.

Right now, you think that the feet drives the hips. That is, you step and then unload from the hips. But, the hip should drive the feet. You turn the hip and the feet steps forward into the shot.

Have anything to say about the takeback?

You shouldn't tuck in your elbows (or close the armpits) in the BH takeback, which causes you to trace the smile pattern by purely pivoting the forearms (i.e. hands) around the elbows. Conceptually, it looks like you're trying to swing around your body, as if you were swinging a bat.

You want to trace the pattern with the left elbow joint, letting the arm come away from your body, and the armpit to open naturally. Remember that you're not trying to swing around the body. You want the swing to travel in a line toward the ball.

That all said, the footwork bit is the bigger problem. It's just messing with your concept of the BH, because you're totally thinking of it as a rotational (swing around the axis) rather than linear (put weight into ball) movement.

[sharpilistik]

Sometimes you step out with foot closest to ball, but you're not really stepping "out." The foot should stay in front of your body unless you're doing something like a gravity step.



The hip turn and a step out goes together. It helps transfer your weight onto that step and your future steps.

Right now, you think that the feet drives the hips. That is, you step and then unload from the hips. But, the hip should drive the feet. You turn the hip and the feet steps forward into the shot.



You shouldn't tuck in your elbows (or close the armpits) in the BH takeback, which causes you to trace the smile pattern by purely pivoting the forearms (i.e. hands) around the elbows. Conceptually, it looks like you're trying to swing around your body, as if you were swinging a bat.

You want to trace the pattern with the left elbow joint, letting the arm come away from your body, and the armpit to open naturally. Remember that you're not trying to swing around the body. You want the swing to travel in a line toward the ball.

That all said, the footwork bit is the bigger problem. It's just messing with your concept of the BH, because you're totally thinking of it as a rotational (swing around the axis) rather than linear (put weight into ball) movement.

yep yep yep. That's exactly how i think of hitting my bh, like swinging a baseball bat!! I mean this is EXACTLY the visualization I use! How in the world did you know?

So essentially what's the difference? I'm not quite sure what you mean by having the swing travel in a line toward the ball vs. swinging around the body. Im assuming #2 is what im doing now?

Let me have a look at the footwork...So basically what you are saying is that i start out with the feet closest moving first, but somehow not turning the hips along with it?

[tricky]

yep yep yep. That's exactly how i think of hitting my bh, like swinging a baseball bat!!Yeah, that's not a good thing. :D If you have played a lot of baseball, this could mess with your muscle memory.

So essentially what's the difference? I'm not quite sure what you mean by having the swing travel in a line toward the ball vs. swinging around the body. Im assuming #2 is what im doing now?Basically you want to punch or push the racquet into the ball. If you've ever tried out a old-school, closed stance FH, it's kinda the same thing. Or kinda like sucker punching somebody in the breadbasket.

So basically what you are saying is that i start out with the feet closest moving first, but somehow not turning the hips along with it?No no no. Hip turn helps the step out.

For example, say you need to step out with the left foot. You start turning your left hip and at the same time, lift your left foot off ground. This will initiate the step out.

You'll notice that your foot speed will pick up and your feet will move much lighter. It's less running and more like "stepping" very quickly. You can try this right now.

[sharpilistik]

Yeah, that's not a good thing. :D If you have played a lot of baseball, this could mess with your muscle memory.

Basically you want to punch or push the racquet into the ball. If you've ever tried out a old-school, closed stance FH, it's kinda the same thing. Or kinda like sucker punching somebody in the breadbasket.

No no no. Hip turn helps the step out.

For example, say you need to step out with the left foot. You start turning your left hip and at the same time, lift your left foot off ground. This will initiate the step out.

You'll notice that your foot speed will pick up and your feet will move much lighter. It's less running and more like "stepping" very quickly. You can try this right now.

I'll try not tucking the elbows. Is both elbows tucked in right now?

How much to turn the hips? Does this apply to the fh side as well?

[tricky]

I'll try not tucking the elbows. Is both elbows tucked in right now?Seems to be. It's kinda strange, though, because you don't do this with the 1H BH slice. You know to transfer your weight into the shot for the slice, but not your topspin BH.

How much to turn the hips?It's not a lot (no more than 45 degrees); it should feel natural. Also, as you move, you want your torso facing the net, not square to it (which is what you're doing now.) Just let learn to step out using your hips and go from there.

Does this apply to the fh side as well?You could, and most of the time you will. You could also do something different if you know you're going to hit a FH on the next sequence. On the FH wing, you can sit back a little. Sit back a little and lift the foot closest to the ball to step out. This sets you up quicker to groove a shot

Note that if the ball is coming from your right and you intend to hit a CC BH shot, you still use your hips and step out with foot closest to ball.

[sharpilistik]

Seems to be. It's kinda strange, though, because you don't do this with the 1H BH slice. You know to transfer your weight into the shot for the slice, but not your topspin BH.

It's not a lot (no more than 45 degrees); it should feel natural. Also, as you move, you want your torso facing the net, not square to it (which is what you're doing now.) Just let learn to step out using your hips and go from there.

You could, and most of the time you will. You could also do something different if you know you're going to hit a FH on the next sequence. On the FH wing, you can sit back a little. Sit back a little and lift the foot closest to the ball to step out. This sets you up quicker to groove a shot

Note that if the ball is coming from your right and you intend to hit a CC BH shot, you still use your hips and step out with foot closest to ball.


I think its starting to make sense now, only your explanation is alot different than what i heard from quite a few coaches....and probably technically a lot clearer

Ok last questions for tonight, how's the slice bh takeback?

[sharpilistik]

^^^^

tricky heres more pics. Been playing around with stuff but still struggling with the bent straight config stuff. I don't really think im tucking in the elbows in this one though...

I know the footwork sequence is still off in this one but that should be really easy to fix.

http://geocities.com/tennisadvantage/c1.jpg (11)

[tricky]

It looks like when you take back the racquet, you lead with either both arms or the right arm. Of course, you want to lead the takeback with the left elbow.

The right arm is completely passive, and often it remains bent at end of takeback.

Usually at end of takeback, the left elbow is "high" (about chest height), and the right elbow is "low" (no higher than sternum height.)

One thing that helps is, at beginning of unit turn, have the left elbow pointed slightly away from the body, and to make sure the elbow is still slightly pointed away as you take the racquet back. This helps create a more natural takeback, and it helps prevent you from swinging around the body.

EDIT: Another thing that helps (i.e. reinforcing left elbow pointing slightly away) is to have the elbow initially dip a little as you begin the takeback. If the elbow is pointing inwards, then your balance will be off. If the elbow is pointing away from the body, then your balance will be correct, and you'll experience a tight U-shaped/pendulum takeback.

[sharpilistik]

Tricky,

Pictures and videos coming up in a bit of serve....