When do you start moving for a signalled poach?

[JavierLW]

This came up in the doubles match I played last week.

Four of us are in a doubles drill every week, where recently they've introduced signalling and poaching.

In this match our two opponents decided that they should do it for the entire match, my partner and I played our usual game. (our usual game is that the net player just gets whatever ball can reach and hopes to put it away)

One of our opponents insisted to the other, that if he was going to signal that he was going, he needs to move RIGHT AWAY.

Because of this, several shots that I hit that went right over the center strap (and might of been put away normally by my opponent), actually went clear thru for a winner, because my opponent actually had run way past the center strap.

After the match we discussed when he should of went. One of my friends (who I was actually talking to about it on the phone on the way to this match) says you do it at the moment the return's racquet is moving forward because he's committed then.

One of my opponents (the one that was serving and told my other opponent to leave early) suggested that this would be too late because you wouldnt possibly have time to intercept the ball if you wait that long, and he's figuring that the server is running behind to cover any potential shot down the line anyway.

(but what happened in a lot of cases that I saw was the poacher was moving one way away from the center, the server had moved the other way, and I hit it right between them. Not usually on purpose though, but just by chance as that was my normal return for that particular serve. I was trying hard to just ignore what they were doing and hit my best return so I wasnt even trying to go down the alley or anything fancy like that)

Any thoughts? (I know this has probally been discussed before, just curious to see what the latest take is on it)

[WBF]

Against good players? At the moment the ball hits the returners racquet. Perhaps *momentarily* before this. For me and my partner that's what we usually do at least... You could certainly do it earlier in order to confuse them, but be sure the server is quick to cover the other side, and that you don't give them enough time to adjust their stroke to go far enough behind you as to hit a winner.

[tbini87]

^^ yeah i think it depends on your opponents. it also depends on what you have been doing. i would leave before the returner hits it. then you can wait til he starts his swing to poach. then give an early fake, and stay. by mixing it up you will have your opponents confused and guessing. eventually they will become riled up, and will probably just pick a spot and stay with it...

[JavierLW]

^^ yeah i think it depends on your opponents. it also depends on what you have been doing. i would leave before the returner hits it. then you can wait til he starts his swing to poach. then give an early fake, and stay. by mixing it up you will have your opponents confused and guessing. eventually they will become riled up, and will probably just pick a spot and stay with it...

Okay it seems that we have some leeway from when the ball hits his racquet and prior to that (up until he might swing forward), depending on the situation.

But would moving as soon as possible by way out there, or is that normal as well? (he would move as soon as he heard his partner's racquet strike the ball, the server also moved right away)

(if I was smart and I paid more attention I think I could of just watched the server. But I was having trouble with the returns so I decided to just focus on the ball and not get distracted by what they were doing)

[Off The Wall]

...would moving as soon as possible by way out there, or is that normal as well? (he would move as soon as he heard his partner's racquet strike the ball, the server also moved right away)

Don't take off at the sound of your partner's serve. If returners know where you're going, they'll hit it elsewhere. If you leave when they hit their returns, you'll be too late too often. Use the window between those two times.

[wihamilton]

It's a balancing act. For the sake of repetition, you don't want to move so early that your opponent can hit behind you, but you want to move early enough so you can get to your opponent's cross court return.

On a more advanced level, it makes some sense to move before your opponent has committed to hitting in a particular direction, even though sometimes he will hit behind you when you poach. This allows you to "bluff poach," e.g. fake the poach and stay in your current spot. This does a couple things... 1) it gives your opponent something extra to worry about. Not only does he have to get the return in play, but not he has to make sure he doesn't hit a ball you can easily cut off and put away. 2) For those times you "bluff" and he hits down the line, you will be in position to easily put the ball away.

[Solat]

the best rule on this imho is just after the ball bounces, the point where the returner has to focus purely on the ball and not the whole periphery.

If it is a planned cross then there is not a lot of harm going a tad earlier but if you are late on a planned cross and don't make the volley, your partner will be working hard to get to your side and the standard c/c return suddenly becomes a winner

[rasajadad]

You are supposed to move when the receiver starts their swing.

[fuzz nation]

I think that unless you're poaching against a rock star of a returner, you don't have to leave too early. Since you're on the move laterally, you need to catch the ball out ahead of you, but not behind you because you're moving away from the darn thing. I sometimes appreciate an overeager poacher because I can just block my return behind him and watch him start break dancing. Also remember that when you poach, it's better for your volley if you are moving diagonally forward instead of parallel to the net.

Once a returner starts to swing to the ball (after their backswing), they are committed to a swingplane, so that's when you've pretty much got 'em dead to rights. Block returners are funky though, because they can cough up a soft meatball, but they can also adjust quickly without telegraphing their intentions. If your partner is on the same page with you and he/she is serving with good placement, you ought to be able to narrow the options of your returning opponents and together, you can cover those options.

[Cindysphinx]

My lay opinion is that I watch only the returner's head and I take off when they look down at the ball to start their swing.

I think if I waited for the backswing I wouldn't make it.

Maybe I'll try it, though . . .

[Topaz]

:confused:Poach? What's that?

:) Kidding!!!

Um, I don't do it a lot, honestly, and when I do and it is planned, I try to time it with the beginning of the returner's swing.

[PimpMyGame]

I will normally take some poaching risks early on in the match. Sometimes an opponent may have a good technique, hit the ball hard etc but cannot change his shot last minute, or better still fluffs the return under pressure. That's when you can swoop early in the match and as a bonus start the psychological warfare.

If he hits a winner in the space I just vacated then good for him. If he's very good then a tactical battle will have to ensue as poaching opportunities will be few and far between.

[JRProstaf9]

When i've taught folks in the past when to poach, I've always suggested that the net person make move right when their opponent has begun their swing or at the very latest actually made contact with the ball.

The reasoning behind this theory is that once your opponent has already begun their swing motion it is very difficult to effectivly change the direction of their shot without causing an error. The difficulty in this is obvious, and that is determining/anticipating the exact moment when an opponent will begin their swing but I've found that concentration on their movement and watching the ball into their hitting zone helps anticipation.

The other thing is once you've committed to your poach, maintain your direction and fight the urge to stay put if you move too soon and your opponent hits behind you. Assuming this was a signaled poach, trust that your partner will already be in position (either at the baseline or comming in behind their serve) to bail you out.

[Cindysphinx]

How are you defining "starts their swing?" You mean racket starts moving forward? Or do you mean starts their loop/shoulder turn?

Man, I'd never make it if I waited that long.

[JRProstaf9]

How are you defining "starts their swing?" You mean racket starts moving forward? Or do you mean starts their loop/shoulder turn?

Man, I'd never make it if I waited that long.

"starts their swing" - point where opponent has initiated swinging their racket forward. Granted some players have a big loopy stroke and will sometimes take their racket back early and let it linger a second or two to line up their shot... but its the actual forward swing i'm referring too.

Also keep in mind when you do make your poach your moving in at a 45degree angle towards the next and not straight across... this will help cut off the ball before it gets to far/wide.

Definitly not saying this is an easy move to pick up right away, but if you have good judgment of ball movement and are aware of your opponents style of play, it definitly provides another cue as to when you can make your poach.

[Nellie]

You move on the bouce of the ball in the service box. At that point, the return is focused on the return. Otherwise, you will never get across.

[Geezer Guy]

Javier - In my opinion, your opponents were definately moving WAY too early - AND they were not covering the middle. I was taught that it is best to start the poach as your opponent begins to swing his racquet forward. By this time he is committed to his shot. Occasionally you can start earlier in an attempt to distract him and for him to attempt to change his shot at the last moment. This usually results in an error. You can also fake-poach a bit early as well.

There WILL be times when the returner beats you cross-court. That's just a given. Those same extreme xc shots that beat the poacher would probably have beat the server as well. Don't get discouraged if you get beat a couple of times. The odds are in your favor. If you get beat a LOT - then change tactics.

[Swissv2]

After one makes a commitment to the action they will take, and their partner knows beforehand, the movement should be based right at the time of the opponent taking their racquets back.

Sure you might get burned down the alley, etc a few shots, but those are small points in which your tactics can be simply modified.

[JavierLW]

Javier - In my opinion, your opponents were definately moving WAY too early - AND they were not covering the middle. I was taught that it is best to start the poach as your opponent begins to swing his racquet forward. By this time he is committed to his shot. Occasionally you can start earlier in an attempt to distract him and for him to attempt to change his shot at the last moment. This usually results in an error. You can also fake-poach a bit early as well.

There WILL be times when the returner beats you cross-court. That's just a given. Those same extreme xc shots that beat the poacher would probably have beat the server as well. Don't get discouraged if you get beat a couple of times. The odds are in your favor. If you get beat a LOT - then change tactics.

I actually thought they were kind of silly for doing the signalled poaching at all (in this match anyway, and given that they made a big deal about how they would win it).

The reason being is that under normal circumstances you probally figure you're going to lose a few points by doing it, but it pays off because you can distract the returner and you can set up a fake or something later.

But these guys couldnt even keep their serve in. So they gave tons of points away due to double faults and poor serves (and one of them is a really good server usually as far as consistancy at least), and when they threw us all those free points on the poach attempts, they didnt have much of a chance to win.

On one of the points, it was almost comical. The net player signalled that he was going to poach from the ad side, and the server said "NO!!!". (normally the whole other time he had been saying "yes" to confirm he got the signal)

I think the net player thought he just meant he hadnt seen the signal, so he signalled that he was going to go again, again the server yelled "NO!!!!".

So then the net player obviously signalled that he wasnt going to go, and the server was happy with that. Apparently the server doesnt believe in poaching from the ad court because "it's your backhand".

(he's also one of those "forehands take it down the middle" guys as well)

[Geezer Guy]

I actually thought they were kind of silly for doing the signalled poaching at all (in this match anyway, and given that they made a big deal about how they would win it).

The reason being is that under normal circumstances you probally figure you're going to lose a few points by doing it, but it pays off because you can distract the returner and you can set up a fake or something later.

But these guys couldnt even keep their serve in. So they gave tons of points away due to double faults and poor serves (and one of them is a really good server usually as far as consistancy at least), and when they threw us all those free points on the poach attempts, they didnt have much of a chance to win.

On one of the points, it was almost comical. The net player signalled that he was going to poach from the ad side, and the server said "NO!!!". (normally the whole other time he had been saying "yes" to confirm he got the signal)

I think the net player thought he just meant he hadnt seen the signal, so he signalled that he was going to go again, again the server yelled "NO!!!!".

So then the net player obviously signalled that he wasnt going to go, and the server was happy with that. Apparently the server doesnt believe in poaching from the ad court because "it's your backhand".

(he's also one of those "forehands take it down the middle" guys as well)

Hopefully they learned from this match. Practice matches are a great time to, well, practice new things. Hopefully they'll be better prepared for an important match in the future.

Did your coach talk about the importance of serve selection when you know your partner is going to poach?

[35ft6]

I start moving when the returner is almost done with backswing. Less chance they can change the placement of their return by then.

[JavierLW]

Hopefully they learned from this match. Practice matches are a great time to, well, practice new things. Hopefully they'll be better prepared for an important match in the future.

Did your coach talk about the importance of serve selection when you know your partner is going to poach?

It's actually an adult drill with an empasis on doubles.

I think the teaching pro left a few things out like service placement and timing.

I think it's cool to practice it, but in this case, it was a match that they made a big deal about winning. (kind of like a "for blood" practice match)

And they probally have some other major flaws in their game that signalling made worse, such that they (at least one of them) can be inconsistant and that they lack patience.

If your double faulting away every other point, making tons of unforced errors, and giving your opponents loads of unwarrented confidence, they probally have a lot bigger issues then signalling.

One of the players usually isnt very patient under normal circumstances if things dont go right and he was even more thrown off now.

It's like if anything bad happened, he had to worry about what the other guy thought of it (and rightly so because the other guy made it a point to let him know about it).

Meanwhile the other guy who is normally pretty steady, was so worried about what his partner was doing, that he threw himself out of his game. Im sure he'll blame his partner, or the courts (he claimed it was dark in there which is why he couldnt serve, but my partner and I did fine) or something but he didnt play that great either.

I think if Im ever playing with a partner where Im comfortable and I have everything else in the game straightened out, Id love to try signalling. But if our shots arent even going over the net, I dont think it's going to make it that much easier. (although I suppose most of the time when you show up and cant even find your shots in doubles you're going to be done pretty quickly anyway unless our opponents bail you out somehow)

[LuckyR]

IMO the various answers in this post are directed to various poaching situations. In the OP's question, the situation is a signalled (or called) poach. In this case you need to leave earlier than a spontaneous poach, since with a called poach you have the responsibility for that side of the net from the sideline of the alley to the midpoint of the angle of returns, regardless of the quality of the return. On a spontaneous poach, you hit what you can punish and let the rest through, your partner will be there to back you up. Not so on a called poach as they have crossed behind you.

[JavierLW]

IMO the various answers in this post are directed to various poaching situations. In the OP's question, the situation is a signalled (or called) poach. In this case you need to leave earlier than a spontaneous poach, since with a called poach you have the responsibility for that side of the net from the sideline of the alley to the midpoint of the angle of returns, regardless of the quality of the return. On a spontaneous poach, you hit what you can punish and let the rest through, your partner will be there to back you up. Not so on a called poach as they have crossed behind you.

That is a good point and I think that's where it gets confusing sometimes. Because it's hard to imagine that you can be responsible for the entire other half of the court if you dont leave early enough. (even worse is your partner who has even more ground to cover)

But even so, do you think leaving immediately is still too soon? Seems like that's way too soon to me. Unless it just doesnt matter if you are giving it away early or not, and you're just doing it for confusion sake.

Even worse was that the server left as soon as he served it as well, so my normal returns passed right between them (as they were running away from it)

If I could of handled the return easier, I probally would of just looked for where the server was going and hit it in that direction. (I do that when someone trys to use the I formation and the server makes a break for one direction right away)

[doggieboy]

I'm glad that you posted this because I used to be pretty successful with signaling and poaching. I have taken up tennis after a number of years and some back surgery and find that signaling and poaching is much more difficult. You could argue that my skills have diminished a great deal, but I think there are more factors at work. I think part of it is the pace generated by todays rackets and the fact that people are learning how to harness that power (modern forehand). An article was placed in a local tennis magazine describes "middle jumping" which amounts to taking one step towards the center and then deciding if you are going to poach based upon the return. The former ATP player/author offered this as the way that top players combat the bigger returns.

[raiden031]

I hate signalled poaching and choose not to use them. So far, I have been pretty successful just reading my opponents and poaching when the opportunity arises. Of course I will miss some poachable returns occasionally but thats ok because thats what my partner is there for.

I like playing against the poach fakers who start running back and forth in front of the net before I even return the ball and end up hitting an error after being off balance if they manage to get a racquet on it. Does anyone find this strategy useful?

[LuckyR]

That is a good point and I think that's where it gets confusing sometimes. Because it's hard to imagine that you can be responsible for the entire other half of the court if you dont leave early enough. (even worse is your partner who has even more ground to cover)

But even so, do you think leaving immediately is still too soon? Seems like that's way too soon to me. Unless it just doesnt matter if you are giving it away early or not, and you're just doing it for confusion sake.

Even worse was that the server left as soon as he served it as well, so my normal returns passed right between them (as they were running away from it)

If I could of handled the return easier, I probally would of just looked for where the server was going and hit it in that direction. (I do that when someone trys to use the I formation and the server makes a break for one direction right away)


Your point is well taken. Called poaches work best when the returner is having some trouble with the serve. When a returner has to really concentrate on his return, he will usually not seek to do too much with the return, pace-wise since he is so likely to hit it out. Rather he will take a lot of pace off of the return in order to get it in and will rely on a sharp crosscourt angle to keep it away from the netman. This is the situation where leaving early on a called poach will net your team an easy point.

If the server doesn't have that kind of serve, I would recommend spontaneous poaches since the returners will have the time and skill to hit behind the netman or just hit great, high pace returns that the poacher won't be able to do much with (whereas the server could easily hit them from the baseline).

[JohnP]

Against good players? At the moment the ball hits the returners racquet. Perhaps *momentarily* before this. For me and my partner that's what we usually do at least... You could certainly do it earlier in order to confuse them, but be sure the server is quick to cover the other side, and that you don't give them enough time to adjust their stroke to go far enough behind you as to hit a winner.

Bingo. Also if you're playing at a high enough level, if your teammate has a big enough serve, you may literally have to leave the moment you see the ball go by your head.