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In)SpiRe
01-05-2008, 10:19 AM
Hey guys. Recently I've been volleying alot and have lost all my gaming at the baseline. So I've pretty much been [trying to :wink: ] serve n volleying alot. Although i love my Babolat Pure Storm Tours they just arent cutting it for me. Could I get some suggestions for a good stick in serves n volleys? Probably gunna demo and see if I like. Looking for a stick to *maybe* replace my PST's. We'll see what happens. So any suggestions on a demo list?

Hewitt Aussie
01-05-2008, 11:09 AM
prince speedport black

TonyB
01-05-2008, 11:09 AM
I use my RDS 001 mid for serve and volley tennis. Haven't had an issue yet.

Then again, I used to play with a Slazenger X1 and it worked well, too. Pretty much anything will work, provided the racquet is head light and not overly flexible.

Sampras used to play with the PS 85. Navratilova used several different Yonex racquets. It's really not the racquet, it's the player.

CityHeightsTennis
01-05-2008, 11:10 AM
prestiges rackets give fine volleys for me. Try it.

Shashwat
01-05-2008, 11:16 AM
All Prostaffs.
K90
LM Prestiges (FXP,LM - my experience)
Slazenger X1

fuzz nation
01-05-2008, 11:16 AM
A serve and volley frame has to be comfortable for you, bottom line, but it seems that some widely accepted racquets for that type of work have similar characteristics. Many are on the heftier side for stability, rather headlight for maneuverability, and maybe also moderately stiff for better pop on the volleys up front, but this isn't essential compared to feel and touch. Two softer frames that I think are nice for S&V are the Volkl C10 Pro and the new Donnay Pro One from TW - I use that one now, so I had to give it a nod! I don't use the LM Prestige mid because it's not headlight and I have little off-speed touch with it. Flexible frames are good as long as they aren't so mushy that they lack in feel and control. Again, your tastes may vary.

A cornerstone among the family of serve and volley frames has been the Wilson 6.1 (and now Six-One) line. I have a disposition toward heftier frames and these are in that 12+ ounce weight bracket that I want for S&V play. The Yonex RDS 002 Tour, Prince O3 Hybrid Tour, and Dunlop M-Fil 200 seem to work well, too, but I couldn't play the M-Fil with consistency from the baseline like the others.

Blah-blah-blah... enough about me. What's going on with your PST's that they are both lovable and lacking for you? I've certainly had one or two sticks that I liked, but they didn't give me confidence in every phase of my game. Fill us in on what you're looking for with your gear.

Shashwat
01-05-2008, 11:19 AM
Yeah and also it looks like you switch racquets a lot. The racquet does not do all the work, and i'm sure you understand that. What's lacking with the PST, you can most likely fix it with some lead tape or different strings/string tension.

zacinnc78
01-05-2008, 11:21 AM
u cant go wrong witha k90 at the net!

In)SpiRe
01-05-2008, 11:32 AM
Yea, i have been switching around racquets alot but its only b/c my game keeps changing and changing. As I work out more and more I keep getting power that isn't really needed at certain times. So the main reason why I'm having a lil trouble with my PST's are because they don't do anything for touch/feel/dropshots shots which I do alot. I mean for anything else but net games, the PST is fine. But recently ive been SnV alot, so i'm lookin for a racquet thatll do better for volleys and serves than that of one that does good at the baseline and such. Also i have used lead tape, ALOT of lead tape, but it hasnt helped. I relized how much power I was getting yesterday during my games. Baseline was not working for me, and so I decide to get off the baseline. I pretty much SnV the whole time and did decent volleys but some put-ways and touch shots were horrid. Now I'm just going to say, I know it isn't racquet and I practice hard everyday, but as most of yall should know, some racquets do better in certain aspects than others and I know many peope here are more experienced with SnV than I am. Which is why im asking here.

Jonny S&V
01-05-2008, 11:33 AM
As a fellow S&Ver, I would highly suggest anything above 11 oz, 107 sq in headsize or smaller, and head-light will be more then enough to volley easily with. I personally use a Dunlop M-fil 200 with 6 grams of lead at 3 & 9, and I find that it gives me both power and touch galore. Going along with fuzz nation, what is it that you don't like about the PST? I personally found nothing wrong with the racquet that would make it a bad S&V racquet.

In)SpiRe
01-05-2008, 11:35 AM
Also power and weight and such are no problem as I can pretty much use any heavy racquet.

rabidcow
01-05-2008, 11:37 AM
Maybe you just need to develope more feel on your own, get used to a racquet. What racquets do you volley well with

In)SpiRe
01-05-2008, 11:43 AM
Maybe you just need to develope more feel on your own, get used to a racquet. What racquets do you volley well with

I dont think thats it. When My Pure Control Team Standard was my main racquet I had no problem with touch and feel shots but put-aways were a problem with this one. With my PST it is the exact opposite and I cant understand why :[. Maybe its the strings. Ima try different strings sometime next week and see what happens.

fuzz nation
01-05-2008, 11:53 AM
I hear you. Sounds like you got good pop out of that stiffer Pure Control, but the consistency in your game comes from the PST until you venture to net with it. Is that what's going on? If so, I have some advice, but I'll hold off on another rant until you respond to this. It sounds like you're walking a performance tightrope that's painfully familiar for me.

In)SpiRe
01-05-2008, 12:19 PM
I hear you. Sounds like you got good pop out of that stiffer Pure Control, but the consistency in your game comes from the PST until you venture to net with it. Is that what's going on? If so, I have some advice, but I'll hold off on another rant until you respond to this. It sounds like you're walking a performance tightrope that's painfully familiar for me.

Thats sorta the situation. But my baseline game recently has been horrible. The entire game yesterday included flying balls[one that even flew over the ence] and shanks.

My Pure Control gave pretty good touch/feel but my PST doesnt[guessing its the strings maybe?]. They were both good at baseline for me. Net is where the Pure Control gave more pop and better touch/feel than the PST. But yea, overall I liked the PST more at baseline and the Pure Control at the net.

RestockingTues
01-05-2008, 12:25 PM
The prestiges are great for anything ;) May be a bit biased but... :D

fuzz nation
01-05-2008, 01:21 PM
I grew up as a serve and volleyer, but in recent years I started playing more singles on hardcourts. I needed to be more consistent from the baseline, but it was hard for me to keep my full strokes down with my stiff Prostaffs. When I looked around and tried more flexible frames, the difference for me was night and day; sooooo much easier to land my strokes with some flexible racquets, but there's a tradeoff when you give away stiffness.

A really soft frame can have a diminished level of "pop" off the stringbed that is vital to punch a good volley with feel and authority. Even if it is rather heavy, a flexible racquet can feel like a sponge on a stick when you take it to net and that sounds like what you've got with your PST's. I can't exactly address the mess that was going on for you at the baseline, but you ought to noodle with some string types and tensions before you loose faith in the sticks you're using now. It also wouldn't be hard to put some lead on your handle and see how that racquet runs for you with a more headlight balance than its stock layout. Just change one thing at a time.

I used to think that stringing for control meant higher tension, but that only applied to my stiff racquets. A tight stringbed in a flexible racquet can totally choke the life out of it. I prefer the feel of thinner 17 ga. string since I don't break them too quickly and the livelier multifibers that turned my stiff racquets into slingshots have turned out to be great in my flexible racquets (the Donnays) that have more moderated power.

If you eventually go for an optimal "serve and volley frame" to match your game, you'll probably need to strike that balance between the pop that you need and the control that comes with some flex. My search took a couple of years, but I had to learn about racquet behavior along the way and I eventually found a great fit. You may nail your comfort zone with the right string setup, but there are plenty of options around if you decide to shop out different racquets.

In)SpiRe
01-05-2008, 01:58 PM
I grew up as a serve and volleyer, but in recent years I started playing more singles on hardcourts. I needed to be more consistent from the baseline, but it was hard for me to keep my full strokes down with my stiff Prostaffs. When I looked around and tried more flexible frames, the difference for me was night and day; sooooo much easier to land my strokes with some flexible racquets, but there's a tradeoff when you give away stiffness.

A really soft frame can have a diminished level of "pop" off the stringbed that is vital to punch a good volley with feel and authority. Even if it is rather heavy, a flexible racquet can feel like a sponge on a stick when you take it to net and that sounds like what you've got with your PST's. I can't exactly address the mess that was going on for you at the baseline, but you ought to noodle with some string types and tensions before you loose faith in the sticks you're using now. It also wouldn't be hard to put some lead on your handle and see how that racquet runs for you with a more headlight balance than its stock layout. Just change one thing at a time.

I used to think that stringing for control meant higher tension, but that only applied to my stiff racquets. A tight stringbed in a flexible racquet can totally choke the life out of it. I prefer the feel of thinner 17 ga. string since I don't break them too quickly and the livelier multifibers that turned my stiff racquets into slingshots have turned out to be great in my flexible racquets (the Donnays) that have more moderated power.

If you eventually go for an optimal "serve and volley frame" to match your game, you'll probably need to strike that balance between the pop that you need and the control that comes with some flex. My search took a couple of years, but I had to learn about racquet behavior along the way and I eventually found a great fit. You may nail your comfort zone with the right string setup, but there are plenty of options around if you decide to shop out different racquets.


That was a good read. And ima try what you said before i start lookng at different racquets. Maybe making it a lil more headlight and different strings will do it. Ill tell you how it goes!

nickb
01-05-2008, 02:00 PM
I love my Fischers for volleys...but I can still volley fine with a pure drive..

hoosierbr
01-05-2008, 02:26 PM
Really all about what works best for you. Some like flexy or stiff, some heavy or light, some headlight or even balance.

In my experience these frames are great for serve-and-volley and available.

Dunlop AG 200 and 300
Prince Speedport Black, Tour, O3 White and Triple Threat Warrior
Fischer M-Speed No.1
Volkl C10 Pro and Tour 10 Gen2
Yonex Rds 001 Mid

vkartikv
01-05-2008, 03:01 PM
The 6.0 95 was made for the S&V player but they seem to be discontinued! Of the racquets currently available, the k90 and nsix one 95 would be the primary choices.

louis netman
01-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Lots of things come to mind with respect to frame charactristics and S/V play. Further, the S/V player typically relies on an attacking, chip & charge style element to his/her return game....

High-level S/V-CH/CH players rely on a few key things: 1) effective kick serves, 2) penetrating volleys, 3) ability to hit effective half-volleys, 4) ability to come in behind slice BH during all-court play, 5) ability block/chip returns effectively. Ball feel is also key, although less-so than it has been in past eras. Stiffness plays a role in ball feel.

All of these objectives can be achieved more easily by a frame that is:

1) heavy static weight & headlight (mass plus maneuverablity translates into rackethead speed on serve and ability to block shots), 2) open patterned (more ball velocity on "non-stroke" shot, like the volley or half-volley, and the chip, which are essentially, abbreviated (non)strokes). There is a tradeoff in the stiffness element: stiffer frames will sacrifice some ball feel and hit a more penetrating volley, while more flexy frames allow for more touch and feel at the expense of penetration power.

Examining top S/V players specs, you will typically find heavy, head-light frames with open patterns of varying stiffness.

vkartikv
01-05-2008, 04:51 PM
Lots of things come to mind with respect to frame charactristics and S/V play. Further, the S/V player typically relies on an attacking, chip & charge style element to his/her return game....

High-level S/V-CH/CH players rely on a few key things: 1) effective kick serves, 2) penetrating volleys, 3) ability to hit effective half-volleys, 4) ability to come in behind slice BH during all-court play, 5) ability block/chip returns effectively. Ball feel is also key, although less-so than it has been in past eras. Stiffness plays a role in ball feel.

All of these objectives can be achieved more easily by a frame that is:

1) heavy static weight & headlight (mass plus maneuverablity translates into rackethead speed on serve and ability to block shots), 2) open patterned (more ball velocity on "non-stroke" shot, like the volley or half-volley, and the chip, which are essentially, abbreviated (non)strokes). There is a tradeoff in the stiffness element: stiffer frames will sacrifice some ball feel and hit a more penetrating volley, while more flexy frames allow for more touch and feel at the expense of penetration power.

Examining top S/V players specs, you will typically find heavy, head-light frames with open patterns of varying stiffness.

Excellent summary of typical (desirable) characteristics of a good s&v frame. Given this info., what would be your top 5 s&v frames of all time?

fujitsu77
01-05-2008, 04:52 PM
K90, and prestige mid, Yonex RDS 001 mid, AG 100

Ferrari1190
01-05-2008, 06:28 PM
Dunlop M-fill 200 18 x 20 and 16 x 19
Prostaff 85 and 95

Kevo
01-05-2008, 07:29 PM
I dont think thats it. When My Pure Control Team Standard was my main racquet I had no problem with touch and feel shots but put-aways were a problem with this one. With my PST it is the exact opposite and I cant understand why :[. Maybe its the strings. Ima try different strings sometime next week and see what happens.

What kind of strings are you using in it now? I think strings can make a huge difference in how a frame volleys. A good multi at the right tension might make a world of difference. I particularly liked Yonex 850 Pro for serve and volley, but NXT, Excel Premium, Klip Excellerator are all good choices.

louis netman
01-05-2008, 07:35 PM
Excellent summary of typical (desirable) characteristics of a good s&v frame. Given this info., what would be your top 5 s&v frames of all time?

Really hard to say what 5 frames come to mind in terms of "all-time."
Back in the heyday of S/V tennis, frames were pretty homogeneous. The Dunlop Maxply and Wilson JK & JK PS were all used extensively by great S/Vers of the day. I just pulled these frames off the wall and all three registered to be around 13.5 - 14.00 oz and headlight. The string patterns are all the same (18x20). I don't have the flex figures, but I remember all of them to be relatively flexy. Back in the day, Wilson introduced a new, stiffer model designed for a great American S/Ver of the time. It was the Stan Smith Autograph. Upon examination, one can see the thickened collar and shaft areas. I used this frame for one summer, but ended up going back to my flexier JK PS.

You will find my top picks to be dominated by Wilson & Prince. It seems these companies really began to develop their tennis "roots" for the American game which was predominately played on hard (faster) courts. You'll notice open patterns on their flagship offerings. I believe Head and Dunlop were more Euro/clay-court-oriented. By examining their modern flagship offerings, you will find more the densely patterned frames that are desired by clay-courters. Further, the tell-tale cap grommets are another indication of their devotion to CC tennis. It really wasn't until recently that Head designed an open-patterned frame in their lineup, ditto for Dunlop with the 300 series (which, BTW is quite a fine frame when leaded and IMO, better than all of its successors).

Many frames may be modded to achieve certain desired weight/balance characteristics, however five frames I would pick straight off the rack out of the last decade would be:
1) any incarnation of the Wilson PS 6.1 series, 2) Prince Precision Response Ti (you knew that was coming), 3) Volkl C10 Pro, 4) Volkl C10 Pro Tour, 5) Yonex 002 Tour.

Gotta say that you've got to be pretty fit and playing regularly to utilize these babies to full potential. I'm still waiting... ;-)

louis netman
01-05-2008, 07:39 PM
What kind of strings are you using in it now? I think strings can make a huge difference in how a frame volleys. A good multi at the right tension might make a world of difference. I particularly liked Yonex 850 Pro for serve and volley, but NXT, Excel Premium, Klip Excellerator are all good choices.

Those are all nice plastic strings. Strings make much more of a difference in S/V. You'll find the majority of players who make or have made a living S/Ving prefer gut. Gut hybrid is the next best thing...

[K]aotic
01-05-2008, 11:09 PM
yeah i use k90 with all gut. my gawd its worse than crack! feels great. the gut is softer so u get more feel and u get the ball rocketing off your strings! i'm not a serve n volley player, but i do likek to come to the net every chance i get. :D

tbini87
01-05-2008, 11:21 PM
2 frames i would recommend (that i hadn't seen in the thread yet) would be the tecnifibre t fight racquets, and the new yonex RQiS tour racquet. both are pretty good on serves and volleys.

[K]aotic
01-05-2008, 11:27 PM
2 frames i would recommend (that i hadn't seen in the thread yet) would be the tecnifibre t fight racquets, and the new yonex RQiS tour racquet. both are pretty good on serves and volleys.

oh yeah rqis tour racket is also really good, but i'd lead it just for that little extra stability the k90 has.

Kevo
01-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Those are all nice plastic strings. Strings make much more of a difference in S/V. You'll find the majority of players who make or have made a living S/Ving prefer gut. Gut hybrid is the next best thing...

You'd almost have to be making a living with your S/V if you're using gut. Well, I guess you could be just plain rollin' in dough. Gut has so much pop you have to string it high, and then when you do that it breaks really quickly. Even if you string yourself, $30 bucks a pop kind of hurts a bit. ;-)

CityHeightsTennis
01-06-2008, 02:01 PM
i like serving and volleying

jcstennis
01-06-2008, 03:56 PM
I dont think thats it. When My Pure Control Team Standard was my main racquet I had no problem with touch and feel shots but put-aways were a problem with this one. With my PST it is the exact opposite and I cant understand why :[. Maybe its the strings. Ima try different strings sometime next week and see what happens.

holy crap this is my problem.. i was just complaining on another thread... after i sold my PC's i got a PST. felt good at first, but had to set it up like my PC's...more HL. PST at stock felt great at the baseline, nice pop, different flex than the PC. But i want a more S&V stick, like i made my PC's out to be... so i added a leather grip and overgripped it. Didn't do the trick. I added lead tape to the handle and a touch in the butt cap...now way more HL, felt good, but still no dice. i changed the strings, gauge and tension... still, the PST has (with my swing) more power and less control. (I string with Big Ace). the PST has a unique feel and serves great, but i have found it hard to keep the ball in unless i play a full western grip (1HFH) and topspin the heck out of the ball (i play a semi westy...or less, depending... i like flat shots)... i may re-string with some CyberFlash and see what happens. the PST is not muted like the PC, so there is more response... but the feel is different, especially around the net. i am demoing sticks now... this has really got me ticked, may be time to move on :(

P8ntballa
01-06-2008, 05:28 PM
Try the speed port tour and black with string hole inserts the pd roddick+ the rds001 mp and the k6.1 95in w/ the 18x20 string pattern the mg prestiege mid, mp, and pro models and the mg radical mp

vkartikv
01-06-2008, 10:59 PM
Really hard to say what 5 frames come to mind in terms of "all-time."
Back in the heyday of S/V tennis, frames were pretty homogeneous. The Dunlop Maxply and Wilson JK & JK PS were all used extensively by great S/Vers of the day. I just pulled these frames off the wall and all three registered to be around 13.5 - 14.00 oz and headlight. The string patterns are all the same (18x20). I don't have the flex figures, but I remember all of them to be relatively flexy. Back in the day, Wilson introduced a new, stiffer model designed for a great American S/Ver of the time. It was the Stan Smith Autograph. Upon examination, one can see the thickened collar and shaft areas. I used this frame for one summer, but ended up going back to my flexier JK PS.

You will find my top picks to be dominated by Wilson & Prince. It seems these companies really began to develop their tennis "roots" for the American game which was predominately played on hard (faster) courts. You'll notice open patterns on their flagship offerings. I believe Head and Dunlop were more Euro/clay-court-oriented. By examining their modern flagship offerings, you will find more the densely patterned frames that are desired by clay-courters. Further, the tell-tale cap grommets are another indication of their devotion to CC tennis. It really wasn't until recently that Head designed an open-patterned frame in their lineup, ditto for Dunlop with the 300 series (which, BTW is quite a fine frame when leaded and IMO, better than all of its successors).

Many frames may be modded to achieve certain desired weight/balance characteristics, however five frames I would pick straight off the rack out of the last decade would be:
1) any incarnation of the Wilson PS 6.1 series, 2) Prince Precision Response Ti (you knew that was coming), 3) Volkl C10 Pro, 4) Volkl C10 Pro Tour, 5) Yonex 002 Tour.

Gotta say that you've got to be pretty fit and playing regularly to utilize these babies to full potential. I'm still waiting... ;-)

Nice comparison of Euro and American frames - never really saw it that way. I agree that an open pattern produces much better power and kick which are vital to set up that volley. Nevertheless, the MW 200G is on my top 5 s&v frames list. I see the 6.0 series is missing from yours...:shock:

007
01-07-2008, 05:12 AM
TF335 has the perfect weight, balance and combination of spin and feel for effective S & V, assuming you can handle the weight.

prostaff18
01-07-2008, 08:27 AM
You just need to work on your volleys. I use a PST and I have no problem at net. I may be at a higher level than you but you just need to work with it and you will see with time that you will get better. What you are probably doing is your rushing to the net. When I was younger I did the same thing. I just served and ran to the net. You need to make sure that you split and use good solid volleys. If you do that you can use any racquet. Trust me stick with the Pure Storm Tour and work on your game more. I feel that the PST is as solid at net as any racquet. It is very popular in the college, and lower level pro game. It is very solid and once you are able to play a good solid game you can add weight to it and really make it awesome. If I were you I would save the money on buying more racquets and get some lessons with a good pro.

louis netman
01-07-2008, 11:17 AM
Nice comparison of Euro and American frames - never really saw it that way. I agree that an open pattern produces much better power and kick which are vital to set up that volley. Nevertheless, the MW 200G is on my top 5 s&v frames list. I see the 6.0 series is missing from yours...:shock:

Aussie Mark Phillapousas was a S/V guy who used a Rev200g (one prior to MW) in his prime. I toyed with the MW200g one summer when I was more fit. Wilson 6.0 series is not on the list merely because it is outside of "the last ten years" range when it was introduced...Regards, M

Matt21
01-07-2008, 12:08 PM
The 6.0 95 was made for the S&V player but they seem to be discontinued! Of the racquets currently available, the k90 and nsix one 95 would be the primary choices.

Anyone interested, I have a friend selling a 6.0 (95) in 3/8 grip size. She's a 3.5 female who felt it was too much racquet for her. I told her she was too strong for the sub-10 oz frame she has so she got it to play with something heavier, but decided she liked her old Babolat VS Nanotube Drive better. Oh well, so much for my suggestion; anyway if you're interested, email me @ nytennisjunkie@gmail.com. It's a little over a year old and barely used.

stules
01-07-2008, 12:09 PM
Great thread
I am using the RQiS TOur with a heap of lead at 3/9. Its now 4pts HL and 360 gm. I played around with a leather grip to make more headlight, but the overall weight gets too high, with no noticable manourvrability improvement.
I used to use hybrid, but now use all gut.
Any suggestions on tendsion?
Mostly using 56/54 but have recently started using 60/58. Not really sure which I like better.
Stuart

louis netman
01-07-2008, 03:26 PM
Great thread
I am using the RQiS TOur with a heap of lead at 3/9. Its now 4pts HL and 360 gm. I used to use hybrid, but now use all gut.


I'd hate to be on the other side of the net...