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View Full Version : Laver and Newcombe in 1969


krosero
01-09-2008, 11:26 AM
The 1969 Wimbledon final, in two parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q13_STOUBc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePo6KcGQd4M

The image gets a little better as it goes along. The court had some sun on it, washing out the ball a little.

I thought Laver-Ashe was a fine match, but I enjoyed this one better. Maybe that's due to Newcombe's touch; it added an extra dimension. Watching it is interesting in itself, and so is watching Laver responding to it.

BeHappy
01-09-2008, 11:50 AM
please please please upload these to stage6, I want to see the ball.

please!!!!!!!!!!!

what's the quality like on the original tape/dvd?

Moose Malloy
01-09-2008, 12:17 PM
^This is a problem with many matches at Wimbledon pre 1986(when they had a white ball)

If its a sunny day, its pretty hard to see a white ball. I can't see it most of the time in my '84 Mac-Connors tape.

krosero, how many points did you include in those highlights? considering how often the ball is actually in play in tennis(I think only 5 minutes an hour) you could probably show every point played in some matches in a highlight reel.
Nice job.

BeHappy
01-09-2008, 12:24 PM
If you can't see the ball on the original tape then there's no point uploading it to stage6, if you can it would definitely be worth doing though.Thanks for uploading Krosero.

BTW, the second point of the second video: Sweet jesus but Laver was fast, and I mean Nadal fast.

Is the ball really only in play 5 minutes an hour Moose?Where did you read that?If that's true that's a pretty phenomenal stat.

Probably more like 30 seconds an hour in a mcenroe-connors match ;)

urban
01-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Thanks for posting, krosero. This is pretty, pretty good grass court tennis, even by todays standard. Newk played a bit like Edberg in his match, who hit many dink returns. The backhand of Laver at 3.24-8 in the second clip is magical, and he plays some others in the fourth set from the far end. His variety on the backhand, drive, flick, slice, cross, straight, is second to none. And he is holding ball back the ball on his racket until the volleyer reacts to one direction, to play it into the empty place.

noeledmonds
01-09-2008, 01:33 PM
Thanks for uploading krosero. As urban says Laver's backhand was in great form that day. I particularly like the return of serve Laver hits at 7.00 in the 2nd clip. Laver returns the ball with a slice and the angle is remarkable. Newcombe played well also. Newcombe had success with his offensive lobs while Laver had relatively little success with his lobs.

krosero
01-09-2008, 01:47 PM
what's the quality like on the original tape/dvd?The original dvd is not as good as my Laver-Ashe, in terms of how easy it is to see the ball. I think the reason is the sun on the court.

From everyone's comments so far it seems like you can see the ball at least most of the time.

Anyone having trouble seeing the ball on whole points, where you just can't tell at all where it goes?

I can tell where it's going but I have the points memorized having just filmed and edited them.

krosero
01-09-2008, 01:50 PM
^This is a problem with many matches at Wimbledon pre 1986(when they had a white ball)

If its a sunny day, its pretty hard to see a white ball. I can't see it most of the time in my '84 Mac-Connors tape.

krosero, how many points did you include in those highlights? considering how often the ball is actually in play in tennis(I think only 5 minutes an hour) you could probably show every point played in some matches in a highlight reel.
Nice job.The 84W is the worst I've seen for following the ball.

I don't know how many points are in the clips, but I made around 100 mpegs, with one point each. I took the service percentages (55% to 49% for Laver), so now I know the total number of points: 260.

Moose Malloy
01-09-2008, 02:05 PM
I took the service percentages (55% to 49% for Laver), so now I know the total number of points: 260.

do you know how many service points each player played?

The 84W is the worst I've seen for following the ball.

I'm such a big Mac fan, I'd really like to find a better copy(even if its not in English) of that match someday. I'm sure NBC could've done something to make for better viewing(Enberg even commented that it was probably hard to see the ball well at home)

krosero
01-09-2008, 02:12 PM
Newcombe had success with his offensive lobs while Laver had relatively little success with his lobs.I would agree with this from my own point of view; it just makes me wonder about the New York Times report the next day. It says that Laver had “10 aces, 12 winning smashes and 6 winning lobs.” No problem with the aces and smashes, but the only lob winner I counted in the match was Newcombe's.

Maybe "winning lob" meant something other than a clean lob winner; or there's a mistake somewhere.

krosero
01-09-2008, 02:13 PM
do you know how many service points each player played?Here you go:

Laver made 70 of 128 first serves (or 55%), Newcombe 65 of 132 (or 49%).

Laver’s percentages by set:
19/28 (68%)
14/36 (39%)
21/33 (64%)
16/31 (52%)

Newcombe’s percentages by set:
17/38 (45%)
21/36 (58%)
12/28 (43%)
15/30 (50%)

krosero
01-09-2008, 02:20 PM
His variety on the backhand, drive, flick, slice, cross, straight, is second to none. His tennis is such a pleasure to watch; it seems he can do everything.

And he is holding ball back the ball on his racket until the volleyer reacts to one direction, to play it into the empty place.That is something I hadn't really considered when watching his passing shots, but I'll have to look for it, you're probably right.

hoodjem
01-10-2008, 09:38 AM
Newk was a great player (winning 5 GS singles titles, and 25 overall GS titles in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles), but Laver was the greatest. And 1969 was Laver's year.

These videos show Laver giving as the more versatile player. In the second video watch the point starting at 3:42, when against any other player Newk at the net would've won the point several times over, but loses it against Laver rushing back and forth at the baseline.

And look how they use every inch of the court. Incroyable!

Moose Malloy
02-14-2008, 04:22 PM
krosero, a writer from tennis magazine has used your clips for the subject one of his posts:

http://tennisworld.typepad.com/thewrap/2008/02/hail-to-the-chi.html?cid=102073008#comment-102073008

krosero
02-14-2008, 05:09 PM
krosero, a writer from tennis magazine has used your clips for the subject one of his posts:

http://tennisworld.typepad.com/thewrap/2008/02/hail-to-the-chi.html?cid=102073008#comment-102073008Very nice, thanks for the heads up, I would not have seen it otherwise.

Thinking of writing in or leaving a comment.

hoodjem
02-15-2008, 01:38 PM
In part 2, Newk was a great volleyer, but Laver was an even better passer.

rosewall4ever
02-16-2008, 04:11 AM
Great thanks up..love watching the oldies play;)

hoodjem
02-16-2008, 06:20 AM
I have to agree with the writer of the article that is linked. He says "The game is a continuum, not a set of 'eras'. I know these clips are highlights, so they don't include the players' worst moments, but part of me thinks that if you gave the Laver of 1969 a midsize stick and had him practice with it for six months, he’d be in the Top 5 today."

In 1969 Laver beat all the world's top players--pro or amateur--in all four GS tournaments over the entire year, including Newcombe, Rosewall, Ashe, and Tony Roche (59 GS championships among these players). Don't tell me that competition was lighter back then.

I think he'd be higher than the Top 5 today.

urban
02-16-2008, 10:06 PM
Thanks to the internet and the video-releases, some younger fans and even some journalists begin to think twice, when discussing historical questions. And even the players themselves seem to have a relook, and to refresh their memory. Its a shame, that so many records and footages have been hidden for so long, even in the databases of the ATP or the ITF. I think, this forum here has done more for tennis history research, than most publications in the last years.

louis netman
02-20-2008, 10:34 PM
Thanks to the internet and the video-releases, some younger fans and even some journalists begin to think twice, when discussing historical questions. And even the players themselves seem to have a relook, and to refresh their memory. Its a shame, that so many records and footages have been hidden for so long, even in the databases of the ATP or the ITF. I think, this forum here has done more for tennis history research, than most publications in the last years.

Agree totally...Laver was (is) the man!

kairosntx
02-21-2008, 01:25 AM
How refreshing to watch tennis without any grunting. Not on serves, overheads, balls hit right at them, hard to get balls... not once. And the other thing that really stood out was the crowd just watching the match and not yelling between every point.

CyBorg
02-21-2008, 09:11 AM
How refreshing to watch tennis without any grunting. Not on serves, overheads, balls hit right at them, hard to get balls... not once. And the other thing that really stood out was the crowd just watching the match and not yelling between every point.

It's Wimbledon. If this was in Rome or Spain you'd hear some yelling. :)

llgc8080
03-16-2008, 11:48 AM
Yeah, we, "latins", are noisy!!! ha ha