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View Full Version : Just Add Lead - the TW racquet (& shot) fix-all


OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 03:09 AM
When I read a thread where someone is posting about a (perceived) problem with their racquet (or sometimes about a problematic shot / serve / game), I'll often check the following, just for my own amusement....

....how many posts does it take before someone suggests that, whatever the problem is, adding some lead (commonly at '3 & 9') will solve it?

The other day I found a thread where it was suggested in post 3 (ie. reply 2), and just thenI saw an OP mention themselves within their OP (...my racquet feels hollow, will adding lead help?).

I swear there must be an army of posters out there who wait for a racquet thread to be posted, and they almost compete to be the first to say "Have you thought of adding some lead?" ;) It's like the TW Racquet-Forums own little version of 'Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)':
As a TW Racquet (or shot/serve/game improvement) thread grows longer, the probability of a someone suggesting the addition of lead to the frame approaches one.
I think, perhaps it's time to counter such suggestions with the stark truth, the truth that no-one really wants to know. Anyone who wants to is welcome to join in on the bandwagon of sharing reality. The next time someone asks why their shots are going long or their backhand up the line doesn't have enough spin, I dare you to say:

Just add practice :D

Richie Rich
01-10-2008, 03:27 AM
damn, you mean adding lead won't make me better? i guess i have to remove the 3 lbs of lead (at 3 and 9) now :sad:

Duzza
01-10-2008, 03:28 AM
I agree. I've evolved from the old mentality that adding lead may improve my game. Because while it may, improving my fitness and actually hitting more balls would be just as good for me. I pretty much let the racquet do it's own thing these days as long as it doesn't give me any injuries in return :D

Nuke
01-10-2008, 03:37 AM
Just add practice
Sounds like a great sig line.

tfm1973
01-10-2008, 03:49 AM
i wish you told me that earlier. would've saved me a fortune with all the racquets i've bought in my lifetime. course i'd still be playing with an old bancroft wood racquet but i'd probably be pretty damn good with it. and i'd have a huge right arm from lugging that lumber around. :)

fuzz nation
01-10-2008, 03:54 AM
HA!

Having a nice a.m. chuckle here with me-self. I know I've suggested the lead here and there (for a racquet, not some shot), but I've honestly never gotten much help from the stuff. I like my racquet to work when it's "bare nekked"!

...now what's all this hassle about practice?...

YULitle
01-10-2008, 04:00 AM
This is awesome! I get it. Now, where do I stick the lead tape on this thing you call practice...?

Agent Orynge
01-10-2008, 04:19 AM
Taking advantage of physics (such as adding weight) obviously couldn't augment someone's game in a beneficial manner.

You know, it's not always about what makes you play better. Some people may prefer heavier/weighted frames and still not play better at first, but who are we to criticize? I think it would only encourage them to play better and develop a longer swing in the long run.

tennis_hand
01-10-2008, 04:26 AM
well, just get a 12oz racket....

OrangeOne, please write another thread on the 12oz racket replies.

Gimmick
01-10-2008, 05:12 AM
try looking at the review for the Microgel Instinct. Over and Over they complain about it feeling too light. Its no wonder lead becomes the cure-all for anything under 13oz.

Ljubicic for number1
01-10-2008, 05:38 AM
Oh you're just going to love post 12 & 13 in this thread.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=174081

Silent
01-10-2008, 06:27 AM
I assure you that I completely get your point.

But, if all one needs to do to get better is to practice more, and to get a suitable racquet is to demo a lot of them, then what's the purpose of this forum exactly ?

I mean, whichever question one's gonna' ask on his game will be answered by "practice more" ? What kind of advice is that ? Practice what exactly ? If one does not know how to make a shot, how is he gonna' practice it ?

In my mind, to tell someone to practice more is a better advice than to tell someone to add lead, if the objective is to improve his game, however I feel that both suggestions are at least incomplete.

I mean, if that site had a sticky where it said that all you need is to practice more and demo, whoever pays for this would save a lot of money in bandwidth...

NoBadMojo
01-10-2008, 06:37 AM
A takeoff of the 'Just add lead theme' is people asking where to add the lead. Then people chime in with saying 'if you add 2.5 grams at 3 and 9 and 1 gram at 12 then your racquet will perform perfectly and all your shots will land wihin a foot of the baseline.

The purpose of adding the lead is to customize the racquet to a particular specific unique individual. Evidently not only can you just add lead, but there is a magical way to add it so that it works the same for everyone. ;)

tfm1973
01-10-2008, 06:42 AM
i know where to NOT put the lead. i tried 2 grams at 3 and 9 o'clock on my shoes, then 10 grams and now i'm at a little over 4 pounds. i am pretty sure now that it is NOT helping my game in any way. i feel a little sluggish but i've noticed that after removing the lead . . . well i will post my results in another thread.

BounceHitBounceHit
01-10-2008, 08:25 AM
A takeoff of the 'Just add lead theme' is people asking where to add the lead. Then people chime in with saying 'if you add 2.5 grams at 3 and 9 and 1 gram at 12 then your racquet will perform perfectly and all your shots will land wihin a foot of the baseline.

The purpose of adding the lead is to customize the racquet to a particular specific unique individual. Evidently not only can you just add lead, but there is a magical way to add it so that it works the same for everyone. ;)

:) Very funny. My biomechanics concept emerges, yet again.........Hummmmmmm, thinking of which..........maybe we should add lead to our arms?? :) CC

VGP
01-10-2008, 08:29 AM
:) Very funny. My biomechanics concept emerges, yet again.........Hummmmmmm, thinking of which..........maybe we should add lead to our arms?? :) CC

Will wearing a watch on my racket arm help?

Serve em Up
01-10-2008, 08:55 AM
Very observant, good post!

iradical18
01-10-2008, 09:22 AM
Nope, I've tried practice, doesn't work. Much easier to add lead.

Kevo
01-10-2008, 09:59 AM
Lead is very player specific, but it definitely can change the feel of a frame. So for people who don't really like the way their frame feels, it can be a very cheap fix. I know I've enjoyed the benefits of adding weight for a while now. While lead can make a frame feel better when hitting, I certainly wouldn't suggest it for fixing stroke problems.

Douggo
01-10-2008, 10:32 AM
Will wearing a watch on my racket arm help?

Only if you're looking to reduce the swingweight of your racquet.
Also consider some lead under the watch strap. Or at 3 and 9 o'clock on your watch. But you can leave it there all day.

curio
01-10-2008, 12:33 PM
try looking at the review for the Microgel Instinct. Over and Over they complain about it feeling too light. Its no wonder lead becomes the cure-all for anything under 13oz.

I couldn't agree more with you Gimmick

TW reviewers never say that they find a racquet unstable, they simply drop this note :
"I believe that most of these problems can be remedied with the addition of lead tape to specific parts of the racquet." (found in Microgel Instinct review.)

TW itself presents lead tape as the universal solution to most racquet problems. It's no surprise that posters here, who read reviews with attention, are influenced by that and consider this solution perfectly valid.

I think that it would be more honest to restore weight customization as personnal preference and not speak like it was a magical tool to (try to) fix bad or unadapted frames.

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 12:34 PM
This is awesome! I get it. Now, where do I stick the lead tape on this thing you call practice...?

:D

Taking advantage of physics (such as adding weight) obviously couldn't augment someone's game in a beneficial manner.

You know, it's not always about what makes you play better. Some people may prefer heavier/weighted frames and still not play better at first, but who are we to criticize? I think it would only encourage them to play better and develop a longer swing in the long run.

Methinks you are an enemy hidden within the ranks!

It is a myth that a heavier frame will result in longer swings, in fact, if you don't have the technique you may end up chopping at the ball with a heavier frame.

It is also a myth (especially in the modern game) that longer swings are indeed what are necessary, when in reality, faster headspeed is indeed what is often needed to compete...

well, just get a 12oz racket....

OrangeOne, please write another thread on the 12oz racket replies.

Hehe :)

I assure you that I completely get your point.

But, if all one needs to do to get better is to practice more, and to get a suitable racquet is to demo a lot of them, then what's the purpose of this forum exactly ?

I mean, whichever question one's gonna' ask on his game will be answered by "practice more" ? What kind of advice is that ? Practice what exactly ? If one does not know how to make a shot, how is he gonna' practice it ?

In my mind, to tell someone to practice more is a better advice than to tell someone to add lead, if the objective is to improve his game, however I feel that both suggestions are at least incomplete.

I mean, if that site had a sticky where it said that all you need is to practice more and demo, whoever pays for this would save a lot of money in bandwidth...

It's the reverse, TW would make less money from sales, I suspect :). I love the posts from people asking how they can improve, how they can practice better. That's when I truly think these forums shine....

Nope, I've tried practice, doesn't work. Much easier to add lead.

Hehe! I tell you what, you should have seen the amount of lead I had to add to the camera to take those pics of your man Tsonga! He's so freakin huge that I needed to counter his mass!

Lead is very player specific, but it definitely can change the feel of a frame. So for people who don't really like the way their frame feels, it can be a very cheap fix. I know I've enjoyed the benefits of adding weight for a while now. While lead can make a frame feel better when hitting, I certainly wouldn't suggest it for fixing stroke problems.

Another enemy in the ranks! Hehe - look, i'm not completely against it, but I think it gets recommended way too early and way too often in these forums, and often (can you hear a can of worms being opened here?) to players who are very much at the beginner end of the spectrum! I don't want to get into a "what NTRP should people start adding lead at debate" (ugh), I do think that racquet modifications should be further down the track than, say, learning how to hit topspin!

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 12:40 PM
I couldn't agree more with you Gimmick

TW reviewers never say that they find a racquet unstable, they simply drop this note :
"I believe that most of these problems can be remedied with the addition of lead tape to specific parts of the racquet." (found in Microgel Instinct review.)

TW itself presents lead tape as the universal solution to most racquet problems. It's no surprise that posters here, who read reviews with attention, are influenced by that and consider this solution perfectly valid.

I think that it would be more honest to restore weight customization as personnal preference and not speak like it was a magical tool to (try to) fix bad or unadapted frames.

You make a bunch of good points, and I'd certainly expand on the red section by adding "especially when there are so, so many frames on the market to choose from".

curio
01-10-2008, 12:51 PM
You make a somewhat bunch of good points, and I'd certainly expand on the red section by adding "especially when there are so, so many frames on the market to choose from".

Precisely !
After some customization experimentations, I found that most of times the stock frame feel is better than the same racquet leaded.

My deduction is that finding a racquet adapted to our game (specs-wise), with good feel and stability is much more important that endlessly trying to improve a bad choice.

Too bad that TW prefer to write something like "yes, this racquet that we found unstable is ok for you because you will maybe be able to improve it with specific modifications that no one knows, even us (and we didn't even tried)" than orienting players to appropriate choices.

dpfrazier
01-10-2008, 01:02 PM
I add lead asymmetrically, i.e., only at 03:00PM PDT (meaning only in the afternoon, and only in the summer), and always have the leaded side on the leading edge of the stroke, i.e., on the bottom for a slice, on the top for a topspin.

Racquet edge plows through the air magnificently, eliminating any minute harmonic distortions caused by insufficient mass.

All strokes now have 1000 RPMs more spin that with a regular leaded (i.e., low octane) setup. <EOM> <WTF?>

Agent Orynge
01-10-2008, 01:04 PM
Methinks you are an enemy hidden within the ranks!

It is a myth that a heavier frame will result in longer swings, in fact, if you don't have the technique you may end up chopping at the ball with a heavier frame.

It is also a myth (especially in the modern game) that longer swings are indeed what are necessary, when in reality, faster headspeed is indeed what is often needed to compete...

While it may be true that a heavier frame will not guarantee a player will develop full strokes, it does give them incentive to do so. If a person is motivated enough and improving their game is a priority for them, I don't see why using a heavier frame shouldn't be recommended.

Now, last time I checked a heavier racquet swung at a fast head speed generates more power, spin, and depth than a lighter racquet swung at the same speed. It's simple physics.

Look, I'm not advocating against people simply learning to play better, but there is something positive to be said about adding weight to a frame.

Anton
01-10-2008, 01:09 PM
Yea this whole BS with adding lead tape is nonsence - you don't see pros with chunks of lead on their rackets do you? No wait, just about all of them.

lead can make a good difference (or bad) - which is why it is advised to TRY that.

bluetrain4
01-10-2008, 01:14 PM
I'm not a huge user of lead, because I've been lucky with getting racquets that I like in stock form. I've played around with lead, but usually end up taking it off.

The thing I find really funny around here is the sheer amount of lead that some people add. I always thought of lead as a tool to make minor adjustments. But, some people use it to completely change the racquet.

So when I read, "my 11 oz. racquet was too light and unstable, so I leaded it up to 12.2 oz," I always get a chuckle. That may be an extreme example, but why not start heavier. Anyway, whatever works for you, that's what's right.

Kevo
01-10-2008, 01:29 PM
I do think that racquet modifications should be further down the track than, say, learning how to hit topspin!

I would have to agree with this entirely. I wouldn't recommend any leading to anyone who is not a fairly competent player. You have to at least be able to hit the ball consistently enough to feel and appreciate the difference you're making. If you can't hit the side of the court you're aiming for then you don't need any lead. ;-)

chlsmo
01-10-2008, 01:34 PM
I only add lead to my racquets at 3 and 9 o'clock. I gotta say though it sucks to wake up that early.

Gmedlo
01-10-2008, 01:38 PM
If the lead is actually doing anything for you, you'll feel it with a very small amount. Less than ten grams can make an unstable racquet stable as hell.

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 02:23 PM
I add lead asymmetrically, i.e., only at 03:00PM PDT (meaning only in the afternoon, and only in the summer), and always have the leaded side on the leading edge of the stroke, i.e., on the bottom for a slice, on the top for a topspin.

Racquet edge plows through the air magnificently, eliminating any minute harmonic distortions caused by insufficient mass.

All strokes now have 1000 RPMs more spin that with a regular leaded (i.e., low octane) setup. <EOM> <WTF?>

Priceless, I'm genuinely laughing :)

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 02:28 PM
While it may be true that a heavier frame will not guarantee a player will develop full strokes, it does give them incentive to do so.

Absolutely doesn't. My frame has never given me incentive to do anything, and when I've used frames that are too heavy for my liking (and I like 'em heavy to start with) I don't swing any 'fuller', I just mistime stuff.

If a person is motivated enough and improving their game is a priority for them, I don't see why using a heavier frame shouldn't be recommended.

I agree entirely. So buy the heaviest (highest swingweight) frame you can swing properly for the number of hours you need to...

Now, last time I checked a heavier racquet swung at a fast head speed generates more power, spin, and depth than a lighter racquet swung at the same speed. It's simple physics.

Agreed. So buy the heaviest (highest swingweight) frame you can swing properly for the number of hours you need to...

Look, I'm not advocating against people simply learning to play better, but there is something positive to be said about adding weight to a frame.

Of course there is, just not for 90% of players, and it's not the solution for 90% of problems - more practice is! ;)

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 02:33 PM
Yea this whole BS with adding lead tape is nonsence - you don't see pros with chunks of lead on their rackets do you? No wait, just about all of them.

Yup, they hit balls 10-40 hours a week.
They train physically 10-20 hours on top of that.
They often use the same frame throughout their career, and they play on different courts with different balls every week.
They are generating more pace and spin than you or I ever will.

Of course I have no problem with high-level players adding lead, but the average player here is probably 3.5, meaning every second poster is less than that, and yet the average solution offered is adding lead. Ridiculous.

lead can make a good difference (or bad) - which is why it is advised to TRY that.

Advised - by whom? Many players will go their entire tennis 'career' without anyone ever suggesting lead - and yet here, it's the first or second thing mentioned....

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 02:37 PM
I'm not a huge user of lead, because I've been lucky with getting racquets that I like in stock form. I've played around with lead, but usually end up taking it off.

I'm the same. I'm not anti-lead....

The thing I find really funny around here is the sheer amount of lead that some people add. I always thought of lead as a tool to make minor adjustments. But, some people use it to completely change the racquet.

So when I read, "my 11 oz. racquet was too light and unstable, so I leaded it up to 12.2 oz," I always get a chuckle. That may be an extreme example, but why not start heavier. Anyway, whatever works for you, that's what's right.

You're not quoting extreme examples - I've seen worse I'm sure!

For the record, with mods of that much, it reminds me of when you see people who buy a ... Nissan Micra / Toyota Corrolla / Hyundai anything... and spend twice what the car is worth 'hotting it up'.

Now, I get personalisation, and if you want to make a car a little wilder or louder, fine. There is a point, though, where if you're about to drop $10k or 20k or 30k on a corolla, why not just buy an MR2 / Celica / Supra instead....and that was designed to go fast and handle well in the first place!

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 02:39 PM
I would have to agree with this entirely. I wouldn't recommend any leading to anyone who is not a fairly competent player. You have to at least be able to hit the ball consistently enough to feel and appreciate the difference you're making. If you can't hit the side of the court you're aiming for then you don't need any lead. ;-)

Good point. It's such a fine change that if you're not already at the level (really) of aiming for even a 1m tunnel on the court with a shot... stick with more practice.

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 02:39 PM
I only add lead to my racquets at 3 and 9 o'clock. I gotta say though it sucks to wake up that early.

Kinda a repeated joke, but I still laughed :)

stox
01-10-2008, 02:51 PM
The thing I find really funny around here is the sheer amount of lead that some people add.

Hey, I resemble that remark! 54 grams added to the head of my sticks.

Alafter
01-10-2008, 04:43 PM
Peeple start needing lead after a bad tennis session to fix the instability of the racquets on backhands forehands serves, not enough plow through getting pushed around etc etc etc

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 04:49 PM
Hey, I resemble that remark! 54 grams added to the head of my sticks.

Peeple start needing lead after a bad tennis session to fix the instability of the racquets on backhands forehands serves, not enough plow through getting pushed around etc etc etc

If either of you are even half-serious, you're in the wrong thread :)

skraggle
01-10-2008, 06:13 PM
I thought this was a pretty good thread, but then I added some lead to it and now it's perfect!

dpfrazier
01-10-2008, 06:30 PM
I thought this was a pretty good thread, but then I added some lead to it and now it's perfect!
:):):)...Pb rules!

YULitle
01-10-2008, 06:32 PM
I think the makers of Head On (apply directly to the forhead) need to start making a line of lead applicators. They would be RIFE with customers!

Lead-on, apply directly to the racket.
Lead-on, apply directly to the racket.


Lead-on, I HATE your commercials. But your product allows me to not practice!

:D

sureshs
01-10-2008, 06:33 PM
I thought this was a pretty good thread, but then I added some lead to it and now it's perfect!

Where did you add it?

Seriously, does a recreational player (4.5 and below say) really need to add lead? Isn't it possible to find an appropriate stock racquet? Is tuning with lead really going to make a difference?

NoBadMojo
01-10-2008, 06:41 PM
I thought this was a pretty good thread, but then I added some lead to it and now it's perfect!

I think the makers of Head On (apply directly to the forhead) need to start making a line of lead applicators. They would be RIFE with customers!

Lead-on, apply directly to the racket.
Lead-on, apply directly to the racket.


Lead-on, I HATE your commercials. But your product allows me to not practice!

:D

Ha! Skraggle and YULitle made funnies ...good ones! LOL

Remember: Lead On...Lead Off

signed,
Mr Miagi

YULitle
01-10-2008, 07:08 PM
All kidding aside, adding lead tape is very useful in matching rackets, which TW does for free apparently.

Anything beyond that can quickly become addicting to the point where you are swinging a head heavy 14 oz racket. Don't go crazy. Do like my 2nd grade teacher used to tell me when I had a heavy hand with the glue stick.

"a little dab'll-do-ya" :)

OrangeOne
01-10-2008, 07:25 PM
All kidding aside, adding lead tape is very useful in matching rackets, which TW does for free apparently.

Noo, (unless someone wants to correct me), TW will match racquets from the stock they have roughly for free, or pretty-accurately for $20. I do not believe they use any modifications for this process, it's my understanding they just pick from their stock and check specs, finding the closest 2/3 etc.

NoBadMojo
01-10-2008, 07:30 PM
Noo, (unless someone wants to correct me), TW will match racquets from the stock they have roughly for free, or pretty-accurately for $20. I do not believe they use any modifications for this process, it's my understanding they just pick from their stock and check specs, finding the closest 2/3 etc.

most companies will <for no charge> pull frames which are closest match for weight and balance. for a fee they will rdc them to pick frames which are closest match for swingweight, and for a larger fee they will customize multiple frames so they match in all respects

Anton
01-10-2008, 09:52 PM
Yup, they hit balls 10-40 hours a week.
They train physically 10-20 hours on top of that.
They often use the same frame throughout their career, and they play on different courts with different balls every week.
They are generating more pace and spin than you or I ever will.

Of course I have no problem with high-level players adding lead, but the average player here is probably 3.5, meaning every second poster is less than that, and yet the average solution offered is adding lead. Ridiculous.



Advised - by whom? Many players will go their entire tennis 'career' without anyone ever suggesting lead - and yet here, it's the first or second thing mentioned....

The point is - LEAD DOES in fact change the way racket plays.

Does this point depend on how many hours a week you play? NO
Does it mean the right amount of lead will make the racket swing itself NO
Does it mean it's always a good idea to put more lead on? NO
So does it make sense to suggest playing around with (dirt cheap) lead to someone who is less then satisfied with their racket? YES

chlsmo
01-11-2008, 12:05 AM
Kinda a repeated joke, but I still laughed :)

Sorry about that... :oops:

sharks195
01-11-2008, 02:04 AM
What does the lead actually do to the racquet? I'm fairly new to tennis.

HyperHorse
01-11-2008, 02:22 AM
I want to take this opportunity to thank OrangeOne for reminding me to add more leadtape to my racquet.
I bought some yesterday and almost forgot about it.
:-D

skraggle
01-11-2008, 02:51 AM
What does the lead actually do to the racquet? I'm fairly new to tennis.

It lets you add weight to specific areas of the racquet to customize weight and balance.

OrangeOne
01-11-2008, 03:27 AM
The point is - LEAD DOES in fact change the way racket plays.

Does this point depend on how many hours a week you play? NO
Does it mean the right amount of lead will make the racket swing itself NO
Does it mean it's always a good idea to put more lead on? NO
So does it make sense to suggest playing around with (dirt cheap) lead to someone who is less then satisfied with their racket? YES

^^ I know and acknowledge all of that, but the point of this thread is that I don't believe it should be the first thing people reach for, and I also (perhaps in a related thread) want to make the point that changing the racquet is rarely the solution that's required anyways...

kbui
01-11-2008, 07:03 AM
I have to concur with OrangeOne. Personally, I have to use my usual hybrid string setup plus the usual dampener, and if possible, my usual grip and overgrip AND play it in a set or two to really evaluate a frame.

If I really think it needs lead, then I'll add a little at a time.

Also, on our off days, we just might be playing bad due to all sorts of things (lack of sleep, fatigue, etc, etc).

Can never ever blame a racquet for poor technique or "tired" technique ( you know you are, trying to play 3 hrs of tennis 5 straight days! busted ! trying to blame it on the racquet... :) )

Django
01-11-2008, 09:06 AM
Hey, sometimes you gotta add lead to fill a gap in your fave manufacturer's line-up. I found the Volkl DNX 9 just a tad heavy at 11.5. But the DNX 8 at 10.9 is just way too stiff. So I choose the DNX 7 (too light @ 10.3) and lead it up w/o changing the balance.

Not everyone loves Wilson w/ a gazillion models in the line-up.

Of course those 11-ounce Head MG Instincts, Yonex RDS 002s, and Babolat Pure Storms are looking good too!

Steve H.
01-11-2008, 09:41 AM
Seriously, does a recreational player (4.5 and below say) really need to add lead? Isn't it possible to find an appropriate stock racquet? Is tuning with lead really going to make a difference?
Well yes, I think it can actually make more difference. An advanced player is more likely to be able to play well with any frame and adjust timing, etc, to make it work. I'm about a 3.5 and find with my present frames that adding a few grams helps control my timing and allows me to hit through the ball better. I suppose with more practice I could adjust, but why not make it as easy as possible to do what I want?

sureshs
01-11-2008, 09:47 AM
Well yes, I think it can actually make more difference. An advanced player is more likely to be able to play well with any frame and adjust timing, etc, to make it work. I'm about a 3.5 and find with my present frames that adding a few grams helps control my timing and allows me to hit through the ball better. I suppose with more practice I could adjust, but why not make it as easy as possible to do what I want?

The reason I was curious was because I too used to add lead. I could hit some incredibly hard shots which even surprised me. But it came at the expense of less topspin and swingspeed (due to higher SW), and slight wrist pain. At that point, I gave up. Now, if you buy a racquet after a demo that you like, but turns out what you got doesn't match the demo, I suppose a little lead is appropriate. But it will also change the balance, so you have to be very careful.

Silent
01-11-2008, 09:50 AM
Racquet companies should mark the universally best spot to put lead on their racquets with an X on each and every frame they produce.

Actually, I have a better idea.
Racquet companies should apply the lead themselves and sell these specifically engineered frames for $20 more.

It would save us all a lot of time :p

curio
01-11-2008, 10:04 AM
Racquet companies should mark the universally best spot to put lead on their racquets with an X on each and every frame they produce.

Actually, I have a better idea.
Racquet companies should apply the lead themselves and sell these specifically engineered frames for $20 more.

It would save us all a lot of time :p

Incredible but true :)

There is an indication painted at 12h on latests Babolat Pure Storm.
It's written something like "LEAD TAPE LOCATION"

Pro_Tour_630
01-11-2008, 10:27 AM
YOu know I am getting sick of posters who keep on saying it is practice and technique blah blah ......

Why do we even have a string section?:confused:

Why do we even have a racquet section?:confused:

We should only have two sections, the talk tennis tips section and the BS section for where people hang out to BS.

SlapShot
01-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Seriously, does a recreational player (4.5 and below say) really need to add lead? Isn't it possible to find an appropriate stock racquet? Is tuning with lead really going to make a difference?

Honestly, not everyone wants to buy multiple different frames whenever they want to change the feel of the racquet.

I have 4 MPro UL 98's, and they all have a leather grip and lead at 12 o'clock. It's a balance thing and a weight thing - I was apprehensive about getting the SL, but I wanted a little bit more heft than the stock UL, hence the lead.

kbui
01-11-2008, 11:09 AM
YOu know I am getting sick of posters who keep on saying it is practice and technique blah blah ......

Why do we even have a string section?:confused:

Why do we even have a racquet section?:confused:

We should only have two sections, the talk tennis tips section and the BS section for where people hang out to BS.

I think these forums have a ton of value. Feedback from different sources is important.

Having said that, the OP was stating that "adding lead tape" as a 1st tweak was not the way to go.

I have to agree, and I do agree with you in the sense that it's all about "FEEL."

So for me, get it as close to your usual setup as possible, and then see how it feels. then tweak with lead if you need to get to the feel that you like.

All it's personal feel anyway, right?

OrangeOne
01-11-2008, 11:25 AM
YOu know I am getting sick of posters who keep on saying it is practice and technique blah blah ......

Why do we even have a string section?:confused:

Why do we even have a racquet section?:confused:

We should only have two sections, the talk tennis tips section and the BS section for where people hang out to BS.

Here's the thing: my current racquet weight is about perfect for me. My strings were the result of a 12 months selection process. I've been playing for many years, and compete at 4.5-5.0.

And yet, if I posted that I was having FH problems, without even seeing my FH, without knowing my level, etc etc... it'd take <20 posts for someone to say "why not add a lb of lead at 3, 12 & 9?"

Personally, I am getting sick of living in a world where everyone thinks that the solution to anything could never be the one that involves a some sweat & effort. Go post in the H&Fitness forums about a muscle/joint ache, and more people will suggest a pill than will suggest going to a physio and doing stretching. Post about losing weight, and people want to know what substance they can take to make it easy. Go see live tennis, and people think that buying Fed's frame will make them play like Fed. Etc etc.

Very few good things in life are easy, and a player with good form, good technique, and lots of practice under the belt....will comfortably beat most other players even if he/she is made to play with a Walmart cheapie (I personally know at least 2 5.0 players who use cheap-china-knock-off-frames, and these guys would beat 98%+ of the players on these boards....

ACK4wd
01-11-2008, 12:21 PM
And as equally absurd are responses to direct questions about specific physical characteristics of frames that are denegrating to new users - "can somewone comment on the physical shape of the racquet ..?" - "Hey go practice more rookie.."

Note - foremost that I don't think that Lead is the end all - because I think lessons and practice are more valuable once for ounce on even a cost basis for my 2 cents

Django
01-11-2008, 12:48 PM
As for the "lessons versus lead" arguments, I believe that if you've done all you can to give yourself an edge on the court, you'll just be that much more confident --- and you will indeed play better.

Let's keep it in perspective.

So it's not practice VERSUS lead, but practice PLUS racquet choice PLUS modifications PLUS string selection PLUS shoes/shorts/shirts PLUS, oh yeah, diet and fitness.

sciwriter
01-11-2008, 03:39 PM
Finding an appropriate racquet and modifying with a little lead and finding good but inexpensive strings with the best tension for my purposes -- it was all part of a year-long process that, along with a lot of practice and clinics and reading, made me a better player. I'd say that adding the lead was the least important part of that process, but it wasn't inconsequential.

JW10S
01-11-2008, 04:16 PM
Here's the thing: my current racquet weight is about perfect for me. My strings were the result of a 12 months selection process. I've been playing for many years, and compete at 4.5-5.0.

And yet, if I posted that I was having FH problems, without even seeing my FH, without knowing my level, etc etc... it'd take <20 posts for someone to say "why not add a lb of lead at 3, 12 & 9?"

Personally, I am getting sick of living in a world where everyone thinks that the solution to anything could never be the one that involves a some sweat & effort. Go post in the H&Fitness forums about a muscle/joint ache, and more people will suggest a pill than will suggest going to a physio and doing stretching. Post about losing weight, and people want to know what substance they can take to make it easy. Go see live tennis, and people think that buying Fed's frame will make them play like Fed. Etc etc.

Very few good things in life are easy, and a player with good form, good technique, and lots of practice under the belt....will comfortably beat most other players even if he/she is made to play with a Walmart cheapie (I personally know at least 2 5.0 players who use cheap-china-knock-off-frames, and these guys would beat 98%+ of the players on these boards....It goes much further than just lead tape. Many, if not most, on TW actually believe that if they just get the right racquet, the right over-grip, the right vibration dampener, etc, that they will suddenly become a better player overnight. These 'Which racquet hits returns of serves well?' threads are laughably ridiculous. How you hit is far more important than what you hit with. People are sucked into the notion that since a good player uses a certain racquet, a certain string, or certain weighting, that they are good because of what they use--absurd. They are good because they paid their dues on and off the tennis court. They would still be good using something else. Anyone looking to improve their game simply by getting a new racquet, adding lead tape, using a certain string, using a certain grip, using a certain dampener, etc, etc, etc, will be disappointed. Nothing is that easy. The OP is also correct that since everyone is built differently, has different athletic ability, has different technique (or lack thereof), etc, that there is no one racquet, no one setup, no one grip, etc, that will work for everyone across the board. Someone who has never seen me play, or who I have never seen play, telling me they put lead at 3 and 9 means nothing to me, unless they happen to be my clone. Just as no pen in the world will give you better penmanship there is no racquet or setup that will suddenly enable you to hit a shot you couldn't hit before.

Pro_Tour_630
01-11-2008, 05:22 PM
play with a Walmart cheapie (I personally know at least 2 5.0 players who use cheap-china-knock-off-frames, and these guys would beat 98%+ of the players on these boards....

Yawn,

I happen to play with a walmart cheapi china knock off, it is called the chinese PT280 for $49 and most likely I can beat 98% of the forum participants with it. errr...... with the correct setup

to your cheerleaders:

All strings play the same I see nothing different between any of them. They all make contact with yellow balls. They are all the same. Anyone can work his butt off with uhmmmmm chicken wire mains and weed wacker cross or guitar strings in mains with harp strings cross at any tension in all condition, it does not matter whatsoever.

Strings have no importance in tennis, it is how hard you work that is all that matters. Everything else is useless to even talk about.

We should immediately close down the string section. It is useless. The frame,.............. any frame even if you chop down a tree branch and string it with shoe laces by hand and if you work work work and practice practice practice your butt off you can beat 99% of the forum participants. See how fun that is:confused:

please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10nisDude~
01-11-2008, 05:33 PM
well...its just plain and simple...u get a stick u feel that u like then try to maximize of wut u can get out of the stick that suits your needs...

u see i didnt feel that i added the lead for "improvement in my game" it was how the racquet wud respond...i felt like the racquet ,my PDR, was a little light for me...plus i wanted a more headlight racquet for a more control feel...also more mass; when i go to tournaments and there is that one huge server that by chance is ur opponent the next round...

of course practice is needed most definitely to practice ur game...adding the lead wont help ur game...it will help u and the racquet how to respond to the balls...

Silent
01-11-2008, 05:54 PM
I'll try to take it from a different angle.

When I started playing, the very same day, I went to Wal-Mart, got a $30 frame and had the time of my life on the court.

After about a year, realizing I wasn't gonna' ditch the sport, I decided to get a new quality frame. I tried to find information on headsize, stiffness, etc.
Then, I went to the store, asked the guy for a stiff frame because I didn't want the racquet to give me too much power...My logic was flawed of course, I had mistaken the effects of a stiff stringbed versus a stiff frame.

I'm not an imbecile, I go to university studying to be a chartered accountant and my grades are some of the best consistently. The reason I say this is that it can be very misleading reading all the information one can find on the internet.

So when someone asks about strings or frames, even if the question is asked poorly (What's the best [insert gear here] to do [insert action here] ?), people who are knowledgeable about tennis should steer these people back on the right track by asking them information on their game, former gear, etc

Running the mile in 4 minutes or hitting 500 flawed forehands in a row will not make anyone a better player, so suggesting that working hard is the only answer is just as delusional as thinking Pro Supex Blue Gear will give someone Nadal-like topspin.

Pro_Tour_630
01-11-2008, 07:10 PM
This is free massage board to exchange ideas mainly........ tennis gear, since............. it is a tennis site that sells tennis gear. You want to talk politics go to a political forum, you want to talk sports go to espn, there are many forums on the internet that deals with all kinds of issues,

BUT

There is only one site which is second to none on the internet that talks about tennis gear and that is the tennis equipment section on TW. If you do not like what we talk about, go some where else and leave us gear heads alone. This is not the place for you. BUT you can't,................ you need us

YOU need to find out what is the latest and greatest. You crave for detailed comparative analysis, spread sheets etc.... That is why you keep coming back here with hundreds of posts asking questions in the equipment section. We are your.......

Opiate

We are who we are. What we mainly do here is a hobby with lots of free valuable advice!!!!!! IT IS NOT A CRIME!!!!!! Like I said we are not looking to be the next Federers of the world like the ones who are practicing practicing practicing their butts off and to reach what? at best to become a club player/teachers after they woke up to reality they are never going to make a living playing pro? Some of my best matches I have enjoyed were losing 6-0, but what was more important was how I felt hitting certain shots with a certain string setups, that euphoria, that magic........ yes magic which many here are trying their best to show/describe to their fellow gear heads, that my friends, you will never take away from us.

I just bought a wilson Ultra I (weighs 14oz, 65sq very dense pattern came with 15g thick old stale strings) I used to play with when I was 13 during the early 80's. Even if I played 24 hours with that racquet/setup for the next 25 years I would not and never be able to hit a certain twist serve that I can execute with a certain setup that I am currently using today. It is not going to happen.

I happen to agree with my fellow gear heads thanks


It's not that the frame doesn't matter. In his opinion it matters quite a bit, especially as you get better. He was just saying that between 3.0-4.5 you find LOTS of variability in what works best, and that biomechanics (he agrees with me on that one), psychological forces (sometimes/often irrational in nature) and advertising influence choices but probably don't necessarily make or break a players ability to compete AT THAT LEVEL.

However, you, he, and I agree on a very important point. Namely, once you hit 4.5+ the frame does matter, and picking the right one gives you an edge. The edge may be small, but when two 5.0's play the outcome may hinge on a handful of 'key points', so small advantages may translate to more winning. (Assuming you play to win, and I think most 5.0+ players do).

Best,

CC


I think the better someone is, the more the gear matters. A slight performance bump from the gear can pay serious dividends for someone playing good caliber T if the player is the least bit sensitive to gear

OrangeOne
01-12-2008, 04:41 AM
If you do not like what we talk about, go some where else and leave us gear heads alone.

Err... You came into this thread, so the same applies to you!

If you are stuck with your addiction to gear, why are you spending so much time in one of the (very few) threads that presents a contrary opinion? I'm not out there posting in every single thread, I've concentrated my little opinion to this thread.

For the record - this isn't the TW Racquets Forum:

"where one can only post if one has 23 frames and craves a 24th and feels a compulsion to modify every one of those frames differently"

it's the, and I quote, TW Racquets Forum:

Talk anything Racquets..I'm choosing to talk about something about racquets. If you want to talk about gear-heads and adding .1g of lead to 3:30 and 9:45...well there's plenty of threads for you!

YULitle
01-12-2008, 04:57 AM
Wow, this thread quickly went from fun to ugly. :-?

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 06:14 AM
Aussi tangerine et al , all you and your tangerine cheerleaders have been talking about is practice fitness blah blah. no pain no gain

Look at your signature 10% luck / 20% skill / 15% concentrated power of will / 5% pleasure / 50% pain

what percentage is equipment and gear like strings in your delusional formula? I guess it is less than .01%:confused:

Why? because you are in the surprise surprise........... the fitness industry :oops:


Like I said there are plenty of forums out there for you and your tangerine cheerleaders to talk all you want about fitness and practice. It is kind of strange to keep on talking about that in a section dedicated to equipment. You are sounding like a broken record. Every time I have to read your posts it is about practice practice practice, enough already we all know that for crying out loud:evil:

jayserinos99
01-12-2008, 06:18 AM
10% luck / 20% skill / 15% concentrated power of will / 5% pleasure / 50% pain


[THREAD JACK]

OT: I believe that line came from a song. "Remember the Name" by Fort Minor.

[/THREAD JACK]

WBF
01-12-2008, 06:24 AM
This is a legitimate complaint.

There are less then a handful of players here who can seriously say lead is even remotely important to their game. It is offered as a fix-it-all solution to far too many people who it will be a non-issue.

Chaho is amusing though.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 06:31 AM
you mean I can find this in a

Richard Simmons workout video

PUMP ME UP!!!!!!!!!

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 07:04 AM
This is a legitimate complaint.

There are less then a handful of players here who can seriously say lead is even remotely important to their game. It is offered as a fix-it-all solution to far too many people who it will be a non-issue.

Chaho is amusing though.
"It goes much further than just lead tape"


"want to make the point that changing the racquet is rarely the solution that's required anyways"


It is beyond lead WBF and you know it, the issue is the equipment. the same cheerleaders that give less than 1% importance to their equipment are the same people that are dissing lead.

Pusher
01-12-2008, 08:03 AM
What does the lead actually do to the racquet? I'm fairly new to tennis.

It blocks alien broadcasts, etc.

deme08
01-12-2008, 08:31 AM
Personally, I am getting sick of living in a world where everyone thinks that the solution to anything could never be the one that involves a some sweat & effort. Go post in the H&Fitness forums about a muscle/joint ache, and more people will suggest a pill than will suggest going to a physio and doing stretching. Post about losing weight, and people want to know what substance they can take to make it easy. Go see live tennis, and people think that buying Fed's frame will make them play like Fed. Etc etc.

Very few good things in life are easy, and a player with good form, good technique, and lots of practice under the belt....will comfortably beat most other players even if he/she is made to play with a Walmart cheapie (I personally know at least 2 5.0 players who use cheap-china-knock-off-frames, and these guys would beat 98%+ of the players on these boards....



You can rant about what you are getting sick of all you like, at the end of day it will not change a dang thing. This is the way internet forums work and that's way people work. I can make a similar thread about how we are getting sick of people using- just practice more as the TW racquet fix-all solution. It's a good advice but it's not the point of TW racquet forum. If you can't answer a technical question with a techinical response then STFU, stop being a smart *** and tell the op to practice more.

dpfrazier
01-12-2008, 09:22 AM
You can rant about what you are getting sick of all you like, at the end of day it will not change a dang thing. This is the way internet forums work and that's way people work. I can make a similar thread about how we are getting sick of people using- just practice more as the TW racquet fix-all solution. It's a good advice but it's not the point of TW racquet forum. If you can't answer a technical question with a techinical response then STFU, stop being a smart *** and tell the op to practice more.
<Soapbox>

In this noisy internet world, it seems like we must often resort to hyperbole before our opinions are heard. Rational, understated responses are usually ignored or glossed over.

So it's understandable when a thread starts with a somewhat extreme position on an issue, as this one did, and in turn invites many extremely-opposed responses.

The problem is when the responses start getting personal, or are perceived as personal, which happens quite often because of the vitriolic nature of many of the posts. The result - many good threads go all to hell...

</Soapbox>

stox
01-12-2008, 09:37 AM
Alot of people do need lead on their racquets if hitting with any kind of pace or power. I'm not saying it is the answer for everyone by any means but even Roger Federer should probably think about adding some to the head of his racquet, which is considered to be one of the most stable frames on the market, to offset some of distortion he experiences when striking the ball (see http://youtube.com/watch?v=aWyKWpMHgho&feature=related).

Even if adding lead makes a person feel more confident because they were told it would help by more experienced players then it has done its job. Not necessarily because it made their racquet alot better or improved their strokes but in the essence that it helped their mindset during a match.

There was also an article in RSI magazine about racquet mass compared to arm mass compared to ball mass and how to maximize the energy that was transferred into the ball. It was determined that indeed a heavier racquet transfers more energy to the ball. Guess what folks, more mass = more lead = more stability if done properly. Now I'm not saying go and put it all in the head of the racquet as racquet balance is very important as well. Each person should experiment to find what balance they are comfortable with.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 10:25 AM
here are some suggestions where this thread and the likes should be moved to,........ the miscellaneous section:


Rants & Raves (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22)
Got a gripe, opinion, frustration...? Post it here. Just keep it clean and don't get personal.

Wanna talk about Practice technique form etc...., great, my buddy Mahboob will dazle you here.


Tennis Tips/Instruction (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
Give and Get tips/advice here..



And last but not least the Rambo or shall I say the Richard Simmons folks


Health & Fitness (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
What do you do to keep in shape?

OrangeOne
01-12-2008, 10:43 AM
Look at your signature 10% luck / 20% skill / 15% concentrated power of will / 5% pleasure / 50% pain

OT: I believe that line came from a song. "Remember the Name" by Fort Minor.[/THREAD JACK]

Jay's correct, it's a song, with a fun chorus. It's not my life mantra or anything.

what percentage is equipment and gear like strings in your delusional formula? I guess it is less than .01%:confused:

I could be wrong, but I believe KK once posted a figure on this, I think his estimate was somewhere around 10%, (it was 8 or 15 i think, but I'm rounding to 10). This number seemed to make sense to me (which means, to show how little you're understanding my argument, that I think equipment is around 100 times more important than you're giving me credit for!

Why? because you are in the surprise surprise........... the fitness industry :oops:

Noooo, no I'm not. I have worked in the fitness industry, but only ever as an aside to whatever else I've been doing. You wanna go percentages - less than 1-2% of the working hours I've done in my life have been in the fitness industry, and for the last few years I haven't actively worked in it at all.

Like I said there are plenty of forums out there for you and your tangerine cheerleaders to talk all you want about fitness and practice. It is kind of strange to keep on talking about that in a section dedicated to equipment.

The 'just add practice' line was, in some way, an amusing aside to the rest of my post, which focuses on racquets.

Every time I have to read your posts it is about practice practice practice, enough already we all know that for crying out loud:evil:

You must have read a very small percentage of my posts. If you don't like this thread, there's so many others about racquets.

There are less then a handful of players here who can seriously say lead is even remotely important to their game. It is offered as a fix-it-all solution to far too many people who it will be a non-issue.

Chaho is amusing though.

I'll have a been with you if you're ever in aus based on those comments WBF, and I agree on your last comment.

"It goes much further than just lead tape"

It is beyond lead WBF and you know it, the issue is the equipment. the same cheerleaders that give less than 1% importance to their equipment are the same people that are dissing lead.

Haaaaave you even read this? My second (I think) post in this thread?
Hehe - look, i'm not completely against it, but I think it gets recommended way too early and way too often in these forums, and often (can you hear a can of worms being opened here?) to players who are very much at the beginner end of the spectrum! I don't want to get into a "what NTRP should people start adding lead at debate" (ugh), I do think that racquet modifications should be further down the track than, say, learning how to hit topspin!

You can rant about what you are getting sick of all you like, at the end of day it will not change a dang thing. I hope you know that the post you're referring to of mine was a response to another post, hence the wording. As to things 'not changing a damn thing' - you're right. Nothing anything ever tries to do achieves anything, we should all just not bother, right?
This is the way internet forums work and that's way people work. I can make a similar thread about how we are getting sick of people using- just practice more as the TW racquet fix-all solution.

You've obviously missed some of the humour in my OP, which is a shame. Perhaps scroll up to read the bit I've re-posted from my 2nd post in this thread, which was in Orange?

<Soapbox>

In this noisy internet world, it seems like we must often resort to hyperbole before our opinions are heard. Rational, understated responses are usually ignored or glossed over.

So it's understandable when a thread starts with a somewhat extreme position on an issue, as this one did, and in turn invites many extremely-opposed responses.

The problem is when the responses start getting personal, or are perceived as personal, which happens quite often because of the vitriolic nature of many of the posts. The result - many good threads go all to hell...

</Soapbox>

Nice post. This thread started in good nature, and it seems many - but not all - saw the 'tongue-in-cheekness' of the OP. Still dp, I appreciate your post.

Alot of people do need lead on their racquets if hitting with any kind of pace or power. I'm not saying it is the answer for everyone by any means but even Roger Federer should probably think about adding some to the head of his racquet

Sorry, but whenever someone claims to know what a pro should be doing racquet-wise, not least one of the absolute greatest players, I tend to think that .... they are slightly kidding themselves. Federer has gurus and scientists at Wilson, probably sports institutes, any MRT he wants, etc etc, all available to advise him - and he's been (almost) more successful than anyone in history. I tend to think most posters on here don't know better than him, let alone his wider support crew.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 10:51 AM
what part of your post don't you understand?

and I also (perhaps in a related thread) want to make the point that changing the racquet is rarely the solution that's required anyways...

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 10:54 AM
what part of your cheerleaders post dont you understand ?

It goes much further than just lead tape. Many, if not most, on TW actually believe that if they just get the right racquet, the right over-grip, the right vibration dampener, etc, that they will suddenly become a better player overnight. These 'Which racquet hits returns of serves well?' threads are laughably ridiculous. How you hit is far more important than what you hit with. People are sucked into the notion that since a good player uses a certain racquet, a certain string, or certain weighting, that they are good because of what they use--absurd. They are good because they paid their dues on and off the tennis court. They would still be good using something else. Anyone looking to improve their game simply by getting a new racquet, adding lead tape, using a certain string, using a certain grip, using a certain dampener, etc, etc, etc, will be disappointed. Nothing is that easy. The OP is also correct that since everyone is built differently, has different athletic ability, has different technique (or lack thereof), etc, that there is no one racquet, no one setup, no one grip, etc, that will work for everyone across the board. Someone who has never seen me play, or who I have never seen play, telling me they put lead at 3 and 9 means nothing to me, unless they happen to be my clone. Just as no pen in the world will give you better penmanship there is no racquet or setup that will suddenly enable you to hit a shot you couldn't hit before.

OrangeOne
01-12-2008, 10:59 AM
Michael, I think maybe it's time to step back a little?

a. If you think this thread should be moved, you're welcome to report it to the moderators and ask them to :)

b. I'm a little surprised you're talking this all so personally, it's as if I've offended specifically you with this thread, which is only 1 of 33,564 threads about racquets.

c. I will note, again, that you seem to be searching for, and noting, only the most extreme parts of my position, and these parts have indeed been posted from my side with a measure of jocularity in this thread, which I'm really not sure if you're getting.

Some fun random debate is great, but it'd be a shame to see this thread turn (genuinely) sour.

stox
01-12-2008, 11:49 AM
Sorry, but whenever someone claims to know what a pro should be doing racquet-wise, not least one of the absolute greatest players, I tend to think that .... they are slightly kidding themselves. Federer has gurus and scientists at Wilson, probably sports institutes, any MRT he wants, etc etc, all available to advise him - and he's been (almost) more successful than anyone in history. I tend to think most posters on here don't know better than him, let alone his wider support crew.


My post was pretty subjective on that part using words like "should" and phrases such as "think about". In the link I was just trying to show the twist of his racquet from on off center shot. Again I refer you here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aWyKWpMHgho&feature=related

While I'm not sure whether or not you watched the clip as you chose to leave this bit off when you quoted my post, I would encourage you to do so then dispute that perhaps a bit of lead on the head might lessen, not fix, the twist of his racquet and accompanying loss of control that results from this.

dpfrazier
01-12-2008, 01:47 PM
This thread started in good nature, and it seems many - but not all - saw the 'tongue-in-cheekness' of the OP.
Yup, I suspected that your OP was at least partly in jest. But I also suspected that you would get some of the responses that you did... lots of TTWers take their tennis very seriously!:)

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 02:55 PM
b. I'm a little surprised you're talking this all so personally, it's as if I've offended specifically you with this thread,

I have to apologize to you if you got in the mix.

I was responding not to you specifically but in general and Yes I was taking this personally for the following reasons.

I started a legitimate thread about racquets that return serve well. It seems I have hit a nerve with someone since that is all I have been hearing lately on various threads, it seems someone is obsessed with me. Hope you understand why.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=170693

These 'Which racquet hits returns of serves well?' threads are laughably ridiculous. How you hit is far more important than what you hit with.


No racquet will hit the ball for you. There is no such thing as a racquet that 'hits returns of serve well'. The specs don't hit the ball, the racquet doesn't hit the ball, it's the player who hits the ball.

'A racquet that returns serves well'? I didn't know racquets could do that by themselves.


Anyway,

Not sure how anyone can conclude (quantify with certainty) a specific % # regarding the importance of a frame in someones game?

Is it %5 maybe less (5% 10%. $15, maybe 20%) Care to give us a % regarding string/setup? me thinks much more, at least twice as important. Check my Poll in the stringing section

It's the player that makes the difference. Someone (KaptainKarl I think) wrote in another thread that they felt the racquet made at most a 5% difference.


I could be wrong, but I believe KK once posted a figure on this, I think his estimate was somewhere around 10%, (it was 8 or 15 i think, but I'm rounding to 10). This number seemed to make sense to me

FYI: frame AND STRING setup form a SYSTEM
I would say it is a combination of both FRAME AND STRING SETUP, that combination is a higher % than you think.

SO IN CONCLUSION THAT SYSTEM IS IMPORTANT IN SOMEONES GAME, NOT SURE HOW MUCH BUT IF I HAD TO ESTIMATE IT IS MORE THAN %15 FOR SURE AND SHOULD NOT BE DISMISSED AS VERY MINOR UNDER 5% LIKE SOME ARE HAVING US TO BELIEVE.

Gmedlo
01-12-2008, 03:23 PM
OrangeOne, I agree with most of what you're saying in one way or another, but don't knock the H&F section. It's easily the most legitimate section on the board, and when you do so, you are offending Ano and all the other health experts that post extremely knowledgeable advice there every day.

WBF
01-12-2008, 03:41 PM
Michael: What would help determine a racquet being good for returns vs. groundstrokes?


FYI: frame AND STRING setup form a SYSTEM
I would say it is a combination of both FRAME AND STRING SETUP, that combination is a higher % than you think.

SO IN CONCLUSION THAT SYSTEM IS IMPORTANT IN SOMEONES GAME, NOT SURE HOW MUCH BUT IF I HAD TO ESTIMATE IT IS MORE THAN %15 FOR SURE AND SHOULD NOT BE DISMISSED AS VERY MINOR UNDER 5% LIKE SOME ARE HAVING US TO BELIEVE.

I think it is important to a point. If I play with a broom vs. my ideal racquet, yes, it will be huge. Same with a tiny juniors racquet. But if I play with a respectable racquet, the difference between that and the optimal racquet will be far smaller than the total contribution one's racquet makes to one's game. Does this make sense?

I do agree that one shouldn't dismiss racquet differences, but I think people will sometimes people overestimate specific factors in tennis racquets.

I think it is also important to clarify that just because you select the wrong racquet, does not mean your game will suffer terribly. Someone mentioned shanking due to wrong something or other; in reality, a good player will compensate for any differences in their new racquets. It will just take a few sessions, and the disadvantages will disappear as one habituates to them... Unless it's something like a genuinely weak person trying to swing a weighted down 13+g racquet, where physically the person cannot weild it, no matter how much practice they get.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 04:18 PM
^^^ point well taken, thanks

as for your question, I don't know, that is why I was asking about ROS. It has been mentioned that good ROS frames can be associated with a good Volley frames, does that make sense to you? We have always started threads about good serving frames all over this forum and in many thread but ROS frames get little to no attention, why?

WBF
01-12-2008, 04:27 PM
^^^ point well taken, thanks

as for your question, I don't know, that is why I was asking about ROS. It has been mentioned that good ROS frames can be associated with a good Volley frames, does that make sense to you? We have always started threads about good serving frames all over this forum and in many thread but ROS frames get little to no attention, why?

I do agree that a good volley racquet may be helpful... You want stability given the speed of serves coming in (vs. slower groundstrokes), and good volley racquets have this I would assume? I'm not exactly a racquet tech guy! I would imagine there is no category of "good return" racquets though, but perhaps there are certain factors which may aid certain return styles. Someone who won't face 100+mph serves doesn't need that stability nearly as much as someone at a higher level.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't be as big a focus... but the serve, being the one shot you are completely in control of (vs. being completely at the mercy of your opponent for in a return) would be a more important factor to base racquet decisions on.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 04:35 PM
I do agree that a good volley racquet may be helpful... You want stability given the speed of serves coming in (vs. slower groundstrokes), and good volley racquets have this I would assume? I'm not exactly a racquet tech guy! I would imagine there is no category of "good return" racquets though, but perhaps there are certain factors which may aid certain return styles. Someone who won't face 100+mph serves doesn't need that stability nearly as much as someone at a higher level.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't be as big a focus... but the serve, being the one shot you are completely in control of (vs. being completely at the mercy of your opponent for in a return) would be a more important factor to base racquet decisions on.

well there is a section regarding ROS in almost every review that TW has about frames.

you are correct about facing a 100MPH+ serve, maybe because many here on the forum are 4.0 and below where ROS is not that important at this level, but when you get to 4.5 and above ROS gets very tricky.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 04:46 PM
I just read your response in the string section POLL, you don't even think string setup it that important in a tight match at high level of competition tennis, why would difference of frame selection be important in a tight match is beyond me

Given time to practice, and a reasonable racquet (tiny junior handles, 10lbs string jobs, and other unrealistic notions), the better player on that day will win, and the racquet *should* not be a factor

WBF
01-12-2008, 04:51 PM
That parenthesis was supposed to end with "aside". A reasonable racquet not being those or other similar silly things.

Also: I didn't read the content lol. I just noticed it was for string, thought you were discussing racquets!

If you hand me a reasonable racquet, I'll win or lose regardless of that racquet.

Richie Rich
01-12-2008, 05:04 PM
well there is a section regarding ROS in almost every review that TW has about frames.

you are correct about facing a 100MPH+ serve, maybe because many here on the forum are 4.0 and below where ROS is not that important at this level, but when you get to 4.5 and above ROS gets very tricky.

i'll agree with you here. too many people seem to focus on other aspects of their game besides ROS. the higher your level the more important it becomes. granted, some players will serve you off the court regardless but having a good ROS gives you a better chance to break or at least make the match competitive.

TENNIS_99
01-12-2008, 05:18 PM
I am a firm believer that a serious tennis player should play with the heaviest racquet he can handle, that means to me that I get good swing speed and maneurability. But as equally important, one should not make tremendous modification to the racquet he chose. It's insane to me that if someone lead up a 11 oz racuqet to 14 oz, that's a new racquet to with a lot of polarized effects no matter how you lead it up. It's also nonsense to me that you need a heavy racquet to handle heavy shot - as long as you can nail at the sweet spot regularly - again the maneurability of the racquet is the key.

Pro_Tour_630
01-12-2008, 05:22 PM
i'll agree with you here. too many people seem to focus on other aspects of their game besides ROS. the higher your level the more important it becomes. granted, some players will serve you off the court regardless but having a good ROS gives you a better chance to break or at least make the match competitive.

Oh lord thank you god, I can serve people off the court all day all night, with ex DIV 1 college guys, I have noticed lately ROS was the problem. All these ex college dudes had to do was break me once and for the most part it was because they had great ROS, They were able to return my serve and break me once. Believe me all it takes at this level in a tight match is a few points.

OrangeOne
01-13-2008, 04:13 AM
OrangeOne, I agree with most of what you're saying in one way or another, but don't knock the H&F section. It's easily the most legitimate section on the board, and when you do so, you are offending Ano and all the other health experts that post extremely knowledgeable advice there every day.

*Blinks*

All I can think here is that perhaps you've mistaken a post of someone else's for a post of mine?

I would never, ever knock the H&F section! It's possibly my fave section of the boards. I'm a regular contributor there, partly due to me having been a fitness trainer in the past, and a coach as well. I regularly share posts and have great discussions with Ano.

As I say, all I can think is that you've confused a post somewhere....