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Rickson
01-31-2008, 01:37 AM
Frank Shamrock is scheduled to fight Cung Le in March. These 2 are both great fighters, but I can't root against either one. Frank's a complete fighter with all the tools and Cung is an awesome striker with great takedown defense and great takedowns from his San Shou days. If I absolutely had to pick a winner, I'd pick Frank due to his ground skills and experience over Cung, but I don't want Cung to lose either due to the fact that he's the fastest rising mma star with the best strikes in mma currently. You'd think it would be a good thing to see 2 of your favorite fighters actually fight, but it's a dilemna. Hopefully it goes to the judges because I'd hate to see either fighter's career go downhill due to a KO or a sub.

Rickson
01-31-2008, 12:36 PM
Ken Shamrock is fighting in England as a heavyweight. Ken feels that he has an immaculate record as a heavyweight, but wants to go down to 205 to fight Tito once again. If Ken is so great as a hw, why doesn't he let Tito go up in weight to prove his point?

BiGGieStuFF
01-31-2008, 01:03 PM
televised in the states?

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 01:23 PM
Ken wants more from Tito? He never was a good loser.

TENNIS_IS_FUN
01-31-2008, 01:53 PM
Ken wants more from Tito? He never was a good loser.

LOL Tito wasnt all that crazy either...he lost to Liddel ffs. Liddel is as old as my grandpa, and has a pot belly, but still was able to recently beat Silva in UFC 79 (i think). It's all about Fedor in K-1 and Crocop.

TheJRK
01-31-2008, 02:03 PM
Frank Shamrock is scheduled to fight Cung Le in March. These 2 are both great fighters, but I can't root against either one. Frank's a complete fighter with all the tools and Cung is an awesome striker with great takedown defense and great takedowns from his San Shou days. If I absolutely had to pick a winner, I'd pick Frank due to his ground skills and experience over Cung, but I don't want Cung to lose either due to the fact that he's the fastest rising mma star with the best strikes in mma currently. You'd think it would be a good thing to see 2 of your favorite fighters actually fight, but it's a dilemna. Hopefully it goes to the judges because I'd hate to see either fighter's career go downhill due to a KO or a sub.

Is Cung Le the guy that does the "scissor-kick-take-down-thingy"? If it is, how much weight is Frank dropping to fight that guy? Unless the other dude has really put on weight since the last time I saw him.

Or maybe I'm thinking of the wrong guy...

A.J. Sim
01-31-2008, 02:04 PM
Ken Shamrock is fighting in England as a heavyweight. Ken feels that he has an immaculate record as a heavyweight, but wants to go down to 205 to fight Tito once again. If Ken is so great as a hw, why doesn't he let Tito go up in weight to prove his point?

Why would Ken want to fight Tito AGAIN? He got toasted in the previous times they fought and it didn't look like it was even close. Ken's a legend of MMA but he's deluding himself into thinking he can beat Tito.

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-31-2008, 02:44 PM
Why would Ken want to fight Tito AGAIN? He got toasted in the previous times they fought and it didn't look like it was even close. Ken's a legend of MMA but he's deluding himself into thinking he can beat Tito.


Nobody beats Ken Shamrock 10 times in a row!

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 02:47 PM
LOL Tito wasnt all that crazy either...he lost to Liddel ffs. Liddel is as old as my grandpa, and has a pot belly, but still was able to recently beat Silva in UFC 79 (i think). It's all about Fedor in K-1 and Crocop.

CroCop, oh how I miss his sweet strikes :(

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-31-2008, 02:52 PM
CroCop, oh how I miss his sweet strikes :(


Deadly for sure, but he has a glass jaw..

scotus
01-31-2008, 03:14 PM
Ken Shamrock is fighting in England as a heavyweight. Ken feels that he has an immaculate record as a heavyweight, but wants to go down to 205 to fight Tito once again. If Ken is so great as a hw, why doesn't he let Tito go up in weight to prove his point?

I was never terribly impressed with Ken Shamrock's skills. He lasted as long as he did with with Royce Gracie in their second bout (the Superfight) thanks largely to his superior strength.

But then his bouts with Tito revealed that Shamrock had diminished substantially in his stamina and lacked the speed and skills to hold his own against the likes of Tito.

scotus
01-31-2008, 03:16 PM
Nobody beats Ken Shamrock 10 times in a row!

Funny, but if given the opportunities, Tito will beat K Shamrock 10 times in a row.

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-31-2008, 03:28 PM
Funny, but if given the opportunities, Tito will beat K Shamrock 10 times in a row.


Because of age i agree.. Prime sham vs prime tito i dont think it's even close..

A.J. Sim
01-31-2008, 03:32 PM
Because of age i agree.. Prime sham vs prime tito i dont think it's even close..


Agreed. I enjoyed reading your battle with BreakPoint on the Lendl-Becker thread.

Did Shamrock's years in the WWF permanently ruin him as a real fighter?

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-31-2008, 03:42 PM
Agreed. I enjoyed reading your battle with BreakPoint on the Lendl-Becker thread.

Did Shamrock's years in the WWF permanently ruin him as a real fighter?


Thanks.. I dont know what happened to shamrock.. I remember watching him in the early ufc but he seemed to disappear. Also i'm not sure but wasent the ufc banned for a while after the early ufc's?

Cant blame him for going to WWF.

Ultra2HolyGrail
01-31-2008, 03:51 PM
I was never terribly impressed with Ken Shamrock's skills. He lasted as long as he did with with Royce Gracie in their second bout (the Superfight) thanks largely to his superior strength.


Ken beat gracie if they would of scored on points. His stand up strikes were not as fierce as someone like Liddel, but did you see what he did to gracies face with one punch? Combine that with he was one of the few who knew submission, strong and in shape like a mofo- he was one of the most dangerous HEAVYWEIGHTS in the world at his time.

Rickson
01-31-2008, 05:07 PM
Funny, but if given the opportunities, Tito will beat K Shamrock 10 times in a row.

He would as a lightheavy, but I'm not so sure a heavyweight Ken can be taken down so easily by Tito. Ken used to be extremely difficult to take down, but the lighter weight (205) and old age seemed to catch up with him when they fought those 3 times. There's still that what if factor and if Ken is successful like he thinks he'll be as a heavy, then maybe Dana White will let them fight as heavies.

CAM178
01-31-2008, 06:22 PM
Frank will KO Cung, I think. Frank is too well-rounded of an MMA fighter. Cung is no slouch, don't get me wrong. But Frank is another level. Cung hasn't gotten tested yet. If Frank is healthy, and actually trains for the fight, he can easily turn it on and do what he did to Baroni. The difference there was that Frank was motivated, while I think he might be lacking motivation if he fights Cung. Baroni had really ****ed Frank off, thusly the 'I'm about to tuck you in' thing (1:29 of the following video) that Frank did to Baroni right before he knocked him out.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2140992586999462744

Mister G
01-31-2008, 06:49 PM
MMA :roll: *sigh*...

35ft6
01-31-2008, 10:48 PM
Because of age i agree.. Prime sham vs prime tito i dont think it's even close.. Prime Tito would destroy prime Ken. Ken was good back in the day because he was one of, if not THE first true MMA fighter. A big, strong, well-rounded fighter. But today he wouldn't be a superstar, people learned from guys like him and Royce and at this point have taken it several steps further. Just look at what Hughes did to Royce, and Royce's style was never predicated on youth, there is no reason why he couldn't be just as good today. And with the roids he was on, he was probably stronger in his fight against Hughes than he was during his UFC heyday. His dad fought when he was like 80 or something.

Anyway, I think Frank is going to beat Cung Le but I'm still really psyched for this fight. Cung Le is one of the most exciting strikers in MMA, and a athletic freak, but I haven't seen any ground game from him at all. Frank will come out and exchange just to get the crowd going and to prove he's not afraid of mixing it up with him, but at some point he's going to take it to the ground and probably dominate.

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 10:55 PM
Why did Gracie fight Hughes? I'm one of the believers that thinks that age is a huge deal in MMA, and that it is expected for a younger fighter to beat a much older fighter.

Rickson
01-31-2008, 10:58 PM
Why did Gracie fight Hughes? I'm one of the believers that thinks that age is a huge deal in MMA, and that it is expected for a younger fighter to beat a much older fighter.

Have you never heard of Rickson? Rickson was the best fighter around while in his 40s and no, I don't speak in the 3rd person.

TENNIS_IS_FUN
01-31-2008, 10:59 PM
Have you never heard of Rickson? Rickson was the best fighter around while in his 40s and no, I don't speak in the 3rd person.

LOL...the entire Gracie family is baller.

CAM178
01-31-2008, 11:00 PM
Rickson, unfortunatley, you and I both know that unless a fighter has been on TUF, or is a beltholder in the UFC, that the average MMA fan does not know who Rickson is. I put this up there with not knowing the name 'Fedor' when it comes to fan travesties in MMA.

CAM178
01-31-2008, 11:00 PM
LOL...the entire Gracie family is baller.
Sakuraba might have something to say about that! :)

Rickson
01-31-2008, 11:04 PM
Rickson, unfortunatley, you and I both know that unless a fighter has been on TUF, or is a beltholder in the UFC, that the average MMA fan does not know who Rickson is. I put this up there with not knowing the name 'Fedor' when it comes to fan travesties in MMA.

How can any mma fan not know Rickson? Rickson was the greatest fighter in mma history.


You know, the more times I read what I wrote, the more I feel like Tarzan.

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 11:06 PM
I've only picked up an interest in MMA since the last year or two, so I've only actually heard of him.

But please, do tell me more about Rickson Gracie. What was he best known for?

CAM178
01-31-2008, 11:08 PM
I've only picked up an interest in MMA since the last year or two, so I've only actually heard of him.

But please, do tell me more about Rickson Gracie. What was he best known for?
He had a sick, sick ground game, and was tough as nails. Watch any of his old training videos. . .unbelievable. He was 10x tougher than his brothers. Also, he never lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTi_E78DSK4

CAM178
01-31-2008, 11:10 PM
Here's another of Rickson at a seminar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khFWXdmGIKU

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 11:13 PM
Wow that ab workout is hilarious.

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 11:18 PM
Has he fought any other big names?

CAM178
01-31-2008, 11:19 PM
Has he fought any other big names?
Yes. Here's his fight history:

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=292

Hot Sauce
01-31-2008, 11:27 PM
To be honest, I haven't heard of any of those guys except Zulu. Also, how come he only had 11 MMA fights?

CanadianChic
01-31-2008, 11:36 PM
Rickson Gracie is pretty hot. Okay Ricky, time for a little less talk and a little more action. I think you should post some photos or video of you competing. I would honestly like to see this.

Rickson
01-31-2008, 11:40 PM
Rickson Gracie is pretty hot. Okay Ricky, time for a little less talk and a little more action. I think you should post some photos or video of you competing. I would honestly like to see this.

I don't compete in mma, CC. I have some good sub skills, but I haven't got time to cross train. One day you'll get to see what I look like, CC, one day.

CanadianChic
01-31-2008, 11:42 PM
I don't compete in mma, CC. I have some good sub skills, but I haven't got time to cross train. One day you'll get to see what I look like, CC, one day.

Haha. Is that a threat or a promise Ricky? ;)

Rickson
01-31-2008, 11:52 PM
Okay Ricky, time for a little less talk and a little more action. I think you should post some photos or video of you competing. I would honestly like to see this.

Will a bench press video suffice? The quality isn't great, but you'd see that I'm not all talk when it comes to my pressing power.

CanadianChic
01-31-2008, 11:54 PM
Well, I've never thought you were all talk, but sure...a bench press video would be fine. :)

Rickson
02-01-2008, 12:17 AM
Hang tight, CC. BRB

Rickson
02-01-2008, 12:30 AM
CC, you there?

mcpon
02-01-2008, 12:34 AM
Why did Gracie fight Hughes? I'm one of the believers that thinks that age is a huge deal in MMA, and that it is expected for a younger fighter to beat a much older fighter.

I would kind of have to agree here. I mean, did you see the St. Pierre fight with Hughes in UFC 79? Even Hughes admitted that it was a young man's world in MMA.

CanadianChic
02-01-2008, 12:34 AM
Yeah. (10 char)

Rickson
02-01-2008, 12:34 AM
Oh no! The horror of this pic!

CanadianChic
02-01-2008, 12:35 AM
There's nothing at all wrong there. Is that you?

Rickson
02-01-2008, 12:37 AM
There's nothing at all wrong there. Is that you?

That was me! If you blink, you miss it.

CanadianChic
02-01-2008, 12:38 AM
LOL. I understand if you want to edit (privacy and all) but thanks for sharing. You are a good looking guy and now I can put a face with the posts. Thanks. :)

Rickson
02-01-2008, 12:40 AM
LOL. I understand if you want to edit (privacy and all) but thanks for sharing. You are a good looking guy and now I can put a face with the posts. Thanks. :)

Oh man. I forgot to tell you that it's a really old pic. The bench press video is more recent and you'll see that I had gained a lot of weight, but I was quite strong in the video even with a bad shoulder. Unfortunately, the vid will take a while to upload so hang tight. That means not today. Soon, but not today.

CanadianChic
02-01-2008, 12:42 AM
That's cool...it's getting late here anyway so I'm off, but thanks again. Just grab my attention when you are ready to put up the video.

Rickson
02-01-2008, 12:43 AM
LOL. I understand if you want to edit (privacy and all) but thanks for sharing. You are a good looking guy and now I can put a face with the posts. Thanks. :)
Thank you very much.

That's cool...it's getting late here anyway so I'm off, but thanks again. Just grab my attention when you are ready to put up the video.

Yes I will.

Hot Sauce
02-01-2008, 01:33 AM
Put Your Insecurities Aside And Post The Damn Pic!

Rickson
02-01-2008, 01:36 AM
Put Your Insecurities Aside And Post The Damn Pic!

HAHAHAHAHAHA! I already did.


Come on now, Sauce. At least you now know that I'm a good looking guy.

Hot Sauce
02-01-2008, 02:52 AM
By CC's standards..
..or lack of standards!

That's right, I'm calling you out!

Rickson
02-01-2008, 03:42 AM
Why the french toast would you want to know what a guy looks like? So what if I'm good looking? That shouldn't matter to a dude. You are a dude, aren't you?

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 09:54 AM
Prime Tito would destroy prime Ken. Ken was good back in the day because he was one of, if not THE first true MMA fighter. A big, strong, well-rounded fighter. But today he wouldn't be a superstar, people learned from guys like him and Royce and at this point have taken it several steps further. Just look at what Hughes did to Royce, and Royce's style was never predicated on youth, there is no reason why he couldn't be just as good today. And with the roids he was on, he was probably stronger in his fight against Hughes than he was during his UFC heyday. His dad fought when he was like 80 or something.

Gotta disagree on both examples here.. Royce and Ken fought big strong heavyweights. Royce looked like a old skinny weakling when he fighted hughes.. You think hughes could beat guys like severn-kimo-etc? He would get spanked imo.. Not even in the same leauge.

Do you think hughes could of beat shamrock? Do you think hughes could beat tito? Although guys are much more well rounded nowdays lets be honest, they are not on the same level of juijitsu than gracie.. And shamrock i think could of competed well with any heavyweight today if he was in his prime.. Most heavyweights suck nowdays in comparison.

CAM178
02-01-2008, 10:04 AM
Gotta disagree on both examples here.. Royce and Ken fought big strong heavyweights. Royce looked like a old skinny weakling when he fighted hughes.. You think hughes could beat guys like severn-kimo-etc? He would get spanked imo.. Not even in the same leauge.
Do you think hughes could of beat shamrock? Do you think hughes could beat tito? Although guys are much more well rounded nowdays lets be honest, they are not on the same level of juijitsu than gracie.. And shamrock i think could of competed well with any heavyweight today if he was in his prime.. Most heavyweights suck nowdays in comparison.
As an MMA guy, I wil disagree vehemently. Yes, a prime Hughes would beat a prime Shamrock, for one simple reason: time. MMA has increased in skill by leaps and bounds since the early days. Back then, if you were good in one discipline, you might fare well. Nowadays, you HAVE to be good in all disciplines to get anywhere. Ken was the only other guy besides Royce with sub skills, so that's why he got a big name. But you see the result when he fought Tito, and Tito was way past his prime. Hughes has all the skills, and he wouldn't need to cut weight if he fought Ken. Hughes normally walks around at 200, so it's not a big stretch for him to fight a bit bigger. Ken is just old school MMA. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ Penn. When he was first in the UFC and walking through opponents, he seriously wanted to fight at heavyweight. Why? Because he knew his ground game is WAY superior to any of the heavies, and his stand-up is better than most, too. Skill will almost always overcome power.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 10:15 AM
Hughes stand up game is pitiful. All he is is a wrestler with sub skills. No way he dominates heavyweight wrestlers like Severn. They would throw him around like a ragdoll. Same with what shamrock would do to hughes. You honestly think shamrock would lose to St.Pierre? Puleeeze. Not even in the same universe.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 10:35 AM
As an MMA guy, I wil disagree vehemently. Yes, a prime Hughes would beat a prime Shamrock, for one simple reason: time. MMA has increased in skill by leaps and bounds since the early days. Back then, if you were good in one discipline, you might fare well. Nowadays, you HAVE to be good in all disciplines to get anywhere. Ken was the only other guy besides Royce with sub skills, so that's why he got a big name. But you see the result when he fought Tito, and Tito was way past his prime. Hughes has all the skills, and he wouldn't need to cut weight if he fought Ken. Hughes normally walks around at 200, so it's not a big stretch for him to fight a bit bigger. Ken is just old school MMA. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ Penn. When he was first in the UFC and walking through opponents, he seriously wanted to fight at heavyweight. Why? Because he knew his ground game is WAY superior to any of the heavies, and his stand-up is better than most, too. Skill will almost always overcome power.

BjPenn? Hughes?. These guys would got spanked if you morphed them back to the old ufc days where there is no weight class. Power is a pretty big factor and there is a BIG difference between a true heavyweight and non. That's why couture would destroy hughes if they fought. And you wont see it happen. And even though MMA has improved greatly, thanks to gracies, it's insane to think a guy like hughes could beat heavyweights like a prime shamrock-severn-coleman-etc..

Rickson
02-01-2008, 11:42 AM
Hughes in his prime couldn't beat Ken Shamrock right now.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 12:24 PM
True rickson. The only guys that could compete with heavyweights today at a 175-180lb would be rickson a royce in prime :) There is no way the majority-or really any fighters today are as skilled as them or as feared as them as far as juijitsu and experience, years of perfecting subs and masters of the choke. I make a exception for them to compete. And even guys like tito and liddell at 200+.. But guys like hughes-penn-st.pierre- etc would get creamed in a no weight class draw. IMO.

GRANITECHIEF
02-01-2008, 12:39 PM
Looks like Iceman Liddel vs Shogun Rua is confirmed. Cool!

Hot Sauce
02-01-2008, 03:28 PM
Why the french toast would you want to know what a guy looks like? So what if I'm good looking? That shouldn't matter to a dude. You are a dude, aren't you?

It's ok. CC pm'd me and told me that you're as good looking as Stepanek.

scotus
02-01-2008, 03:54 PM
Royce looked like a old skinny weakling when he fighted hughes.. You think hughes could beat guys like severn-kimo-etc? He would get spanked imo.. Not even in the same leauge.

It seems that it was an "old skinny weakling" on steroids.

35ft6
02-01-2008, 04:48 PM
Why did Gracie fight Hughes? I'm one of the believers that thinks that age is a huge deal in MMA, and that it is expected for a younger fighter to beat a much older fighter. Depends on what your style is, and how you define "old," but experience counts for a lot, and many great champions are in their 30's and in Randy's case, 40's. Youthful exuberance only goes so far, there's just so many skills you need to become world class MMA fighter. He had a sick, sick ground game, and was tough as nails. Watch any of his old training videos. . .unbelievable. He was 10x tougher than his brothers. Also, he never lost.[/URL]He fought 11 sanctioned fights in 20 years. Lets not get carried away now. I saw the documentary with him and saw a few of his fights on Pride DVD's, and it's tough to say how good he truly was. The hyperbole used to be crazy from the Gracie camp, unbeatable fighting style and what not. They had a point and they backed it up more than probably any other martial arts style (martial arts masters can incredibly delusional and cocky, everybody's style is the best, but I think the existence of MMA has put a damper on things...), but Rickson being unbeatable, it was part of that same marketing machine. Seemed to me a huge part of it was having other Gracies doing well, and then throwing in "he's way better than all of them!" So he didn't necessarily have to fight a lot or the toughest competition available, his other brothers had to do reasonably well and the Gracie camp could just keep saying he's the best of all. I mean, why didn't he fight Sakuraba at least?

Anyway, I'm not an expert, but Rickson sort of reminds me of BJ Penn, a super flexible technician who also had natural superior fighting instincts. Don't think I ever saw his stand up tested. He seemed like a cool guy. Geez. Every Brazilian I've ever met was super chill.I would kind of have to agree here. I mean, did you see the St. Pierre fight with Hughes in UFC 79? Even Hughes admitted that it was a young man's world in MMA.Yeah, if you're young, a physical super freak, with great stand up and incredible ability to out wrestle world class wrestlers even though you're not a wrestler, than yes, the MMA world is yours. You choose a champion who will probably dominate his weight class for years to come to prove it's a young man's sport? And what is young for MMA? Isn't GSP like 26 or something?Gotta disagree on both examples here.. Royce and Ken fought big strong heavyweights. Royce looked like a old skinny weakling when he fighted hughes.. You think hughes could beat guys like severn-kimo-etc? He would get spanked imo.. Not even in the same leauge. They fought one-dimensional heavyweights. It's a different game today.Do you think hughes could of beat shamrock? Maybe.Do you think hughes could beat tito? Not sure. Although guys are much more well rounded nowdays lets be honest, they are not on the same level of juijitsu than gracie.. Wow, that's a non sequitor. There's more to MMA than just BJJ.And shamrock i think could of competed well with any heavyweight today if he was in his prime.. Most heavyweights suck nowdays in comparison.Nah, he would get smoked. Ken was good for his time, give him props for that, but maybe not even he could foresee just how incredibly technical MMA would become.

And the heavyweights of today would completely destroy the heavyweights of before. Dude, you clearly don't know much about MMA. You're a UFC fanboy.Hughes stand up game is pitiful. All he is is a wrestler with sub skills. And which of the Gracies has great standup? Royce? Who has he knocked out? Let me answer for you -- nobody.No way he dominates heavyweight wrestlers like Severn. They would throw him around like a ragdoll.Hughes wouldn't try to wrestle Severn straight up. You don't realize how multi-faceted MMA has become.Same with what shamrock would do to hughes. You honestly think shamrock would lose to St.Pierre? Puleeeze. Not even in the same universe. GSP would have destroyed prime Ken Shamrock. And BJ Penn would have dominated open weight UFC. You don't even know MMA enough to realize what an incredible talent BJ Penn is. Find the video of him where he wins a BJJ tournament as a white belt, beating a long succession of black belts. They don't call him The Prodigy for nothing. He's also the first American born World BJJ champ.

35ft6
02-01-2008, 05:07 PM
It seems that it was an "old skinny weakling" on steroids.Yeah, he was so much bigger and stronger before. I mean, just look at the pics.

BEFORE:
http://www.teamroc-va.net/images/history03.gif

AFTER:
http://www.ultimatefightingchampionship.com/subsite/Royce_Gracie.jpg

If he was big as he used to be, he would have destroyed Hughes.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 09:23 PM
And the heavyweights of today would completely destroy the heavyweights of before

Depends. There was some great fighters in the 90's... Just because more people are doing submissions now and chokes dont mean that they are all way better. And there where many fighter who did know submissions. Like shamrock.


Dude, you clearly don't know much about MMA.

I dont claim to be no expert either. But i bet i've seen way more ufc's than you in the 90's live and probably have more footage on dvd :)


You're a UFC fanboy. And which of the Gracies has great standup? Royce? Who has he knocked out? Let me answer for you -- nobody.Hughes wouldn't try to wrestle Severn straight up. You don't realize how multi-faceted MMA has become. GSP would have destroyed prime Ken Shamrock.

You must not understand true juijitsu. The art of fighting without really fighting.. Rickson and royce stand up game were both pretty poor. So what? They are the masters of the choke and takedowns. You think GSP would not get taken down by one of them? They are not Matt Hughes who could not take down GSP....Bet the FARM that rickson or royce would get GSP to the ground. And no way in hell is GSP in the same universe on the ground as gracies..

And BJ Penn would have dominated open weight UFC.

And i dont know about MMA? LOL Penn got beat by 5-6 foot serra. These dudes would be ragdolls to many older ufc fighters..I dont care how much MMA they have. When you compare welterweights to older heavyweights thats where i'm pretty confident many old schoolers would destroy bjpenn. Heck Tank abbott would KO BjPenn.

You don't even know MMA enough to realize what an incredible talent BJ Penn is. Find the video of him where he wins a BJJ tournament as a white belt, beating a long succession of black belts. They don't call him The Prodigy for nothing. He's also the first American born World BJJ champ.

I know he's good. And i'll bet you yourself are more his weight class just a guess.. It's nice to dream that a 170lber like penn or st.pierre could beat older heavys. Just not likely imo. You put way to much stock on MMA like every fighter is so complete nowdays. Which is true, but not crazy talk thinking a welterweight like GSP could beat shamrock...Sham would of shooted in and took gsp down and beat the sht out of him or hughes. No contest. He was a shootfighter if you did not know.

CAM178
02-01-2008, 09:28 PM
35ft6, what I didn't mention is that Rickson is most known for his street fights. He never lost a fight inside the ring, or outside the ring.

Hey, I'm just sayng he's impressive. He was the toughest of the Gracies, bar none. I'm not trying to argue. I'm just a fan of tough guys like Rickson Gracie. They don't come around too often like that.

CAM178
02-01-2008, 09:37 PM
And i dont know about MMA? LOL Penn got beat by 5-6 foot serra. These dudes would be ragdolls to many older ufc fighters..I dont care how much MMA they have. When you compare welterweights to older heavyweights thats where i'm pretty confident many old schoolers would destroy bjpenn. Heck Tank abbott would KO BjPenn.
Ummm. . . when did Penn and Serra fight? They never fought. Penn would kill Serra.

Anybody who thinks the old UFC guys would kill the new guys is sorely mistaken. MMA is a new breed today, and these guys are nasty good.

And the only thing Tank would KO these days is a bottle of vodka. Lest you remember the Frank Mir fight? Frank predicted he'd beat Tank without taking one punch, and that's exactly what happened. BJ would be no different. Size doesn't matter.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 09:48 PM
Ummm. . . when did Penn and Serra fight? They never fought. Penn would kill Serra.

My bad.. He lost to 5-7 Jens Pulver...Also draw with UNO? I seen that guy fight and LOL.

Anybody who thinks the old UFC guys would kill the new guys is sorely mistaken. MMA is a new breed today, and these guys are nasty good.

I like fedor and shogun. Those dudes are bad.

And the only thing Tank would KO these days is a bottle of vodka. Lest you remember the Frank Mir fight? Frank predicted he'd beat Tank without taking one punch, and that's exactly what happened. BJ would be no different. Size doesn't matter.

Say what you want about tank but he was a blast to watch. You wont see no devastating KO's from penn or GSP or Hughes like the tank could deliver. lol. I think even shamrock was scared to fight tank and did not fight him, tank called him a SHAM haha.

Rickson
02-01-2008, 09:59 PM
Ummm. . . when did Penn and Serra fight? They never fought. Penn would kill Serra.


Penn and Serra fought at UFC 39 in the 155 weight class. B.J. won by unanimous decision.

Rickson
02-01-2008, 10:13 PM
It's ok. CC pm'd me and told me that you're as good looking as Stepanek.

That's strange because that would be the first private message sent in Tennis Warehouse history. CanadianChic was being nice and here you are, turning her good words into mud with your instigating. Don't be like that, Sauce. CC is a nice person so please don't put words in her mouth. Sauce, I'll put up a video sometime in the future so if you can't get over this man crush you have on me, you'll get another chance to see what your hero looks like.

scotus
02-01-2008, 10:58 PM
35ft6, what I didn't mention is that Rickson is most known for his street fights. He never lost a fight inside the ring, or outside the ring.

I believe there was a sambo competition that he lost. He brushes it off by saying he didn't know the rules.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 11:21 PM
Check out a couple comparisons between shamrock and bj penn. BJ and hughes look like a little Kids in comparison..

Shamrock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfDd3TimGGI

Penn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoW4qbwgWEw

35ft6
02-01-2008, 11:31 PM
35ft6, what I didn't mention is that Rickson is most known for his street fights. He never lost a fight inside the ring, or outside the ring. I know, that's why I put "sanctioned." Street fights, that's cool, but you're not fighting trained fighters necessarily, just whoever flexes up on you. I saw one where Rickson was fighting another BJJ guy on the beach, but I'd imagine a lot of the fights were pretty lopsided, an incredibly well trained fighter toying with a punk.Ummm. . . when did Penn and Serra fight? They never fought. Penn would kill Serra.

Anybody who thinks the old UFC guys would kill the new guys is sorely mistaken. MMA is a new breed today, and these guys are nasty good. Seriously, HolyGrail should go to Sherdog Forums and school those dudes on how the pot bellied, brawling, one-dimensional fighters of the early UFC, with day jobs and all, are better than the fighters of today, who are full time professional fighters training in all facets of MMA. It will be hilarious. Hey, HolyGrail, I have the same handle there, 35ft6, please cut and paste the stuff you've been posting here over there. Consider it a favor.

35ft6
02-01-2008, 11:34 PM
I know he's good. And i'll bet you yourself are more his weight class just a guess.. It's nice to dream that a 170lber like penn or st.pierre could beat older heavys. Just not likely imo. You put way to much stock on MMA like every fighter is so complete nowdays. Which is true, but not crazy talk thinking a welterweight like GSP could beat shamrock...Sham would of shooted in and took gsp down and beat the sht out of him or hughes. No contest. He was a shootfighter if you did not know. Dude, please post this stuff at Sherdog. I just want to see what happens.

CAM178
02-01-2008, 11:49 PM
Dude, please post this stuff at Sherdog. I just want to see what happens.
LOL. . . that's not nice, 35ft6! :mrgreen: You know he's going to get eaten alive before he knows what's happened.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-01-2008, 11:52 PM
LOL. . . that's not nice, 35ft6! :mrgreen: You know he's going to get eaten alive before he knows what's happened.

By who? A bunch of punk *** kids?

Rickson
02-02-2008, 12:10 AM
By who? A bunch of punk *** kids?

I'll tell you this much: TW posters are extremely mild compared to the big mouthed jack asses at sherdog. Out of all the message boards in existence today, none have more jerks than sherdog. MMA fans are a different breed and you'd better believe we have no conscience.

Hot Sauce
02-02-2008, 12:28 AM
That's strange because that would be the first private message sent in Tennis Warehouse history. CanadianChic was being nice and here you are, turning her good words into mud with your instigating. Don't be like that, Sauce. CC is a nice person so please don't put words in her mouth. Sauce, I'll put up a video sometime in the future so if you can't get over this man crush you have on me, you'll get another chance to see what your hero looks like.

Haha, eaaaasy big fella. If you're serious, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I was just trying to tease you, and I hardly think that she'd be offended by that. I know CC is a good person, I can tell that by her mature posts. Plus, she represents Canada!

Rickson
02-02-2008, 12:30 AM
Haha, eaaaasy big fella. If you're serious, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I was just trying to tease you, and I hardly think that she'd be offended by that. I know CC is a good person, I can tell that by her mature posts. Plus, she represents Canada!

Are you a girl by any chance?

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-02-2008, 12:51 AM
HolyGrail should go to Sherdog Forums and school those dudes on how the pot bellied, brawling, one-dimensional fighters of the early UFC, with day jobs and all, are better than the fighters of today, who are full time professional fighters training in all facets of MMA

Tank was a professional bar room brawler :) While all these guys are training thinking they got game because they seen gracie fight, tank was doing his thing every night in the bar man..lol.. Believe me Frank Mirr would not take tank down so easy when he was in his prime...All we can do is speculate. He would probably sustain a devastating KO.. Lets see matt hughes-tito ortiz- fight when they are 40yr old with the current best.

Hot Sauce
02-02-2008, 01:18 AM
Are you a girl by any chance?

Seems like you want me to be. Seems like you really really want me to be.
For a guy who thinks he represents a "macho man", you're really acting like a sensitive bee eye see tee aytch.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-02-2008, 01:29 AM
I'll tell you this much: TW posters are extremely mild compared to the big mouthed jack asses at sherdog. Out of all the message boards in existence today, none have more jerks than sherdog. MMA fans are a different breed and you'd better believe we have no conscience.

I'm sure their are many knowledgeable people there...I been there. But it's also easy to see the jerks like you say. I guarantee anyone of us, you guys, would and will disagree on certain match up's no matter how knowlegeable.

Rickson, do you think GSP would beat a prime Shamrock? Just curious.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-02-2008, 01:34 AM
Seems like you want me to be. Seems like you really really want me to be.
For a guy who thinks he represents a "macho man", you're really acting like a sensitive bee eye see tee aytch.


Gangsters need love too :)

Hot Sauce
02-02-2008, 01:42 AM
GSP beating a prime Shamrock? I've never really found Ken's fighting amazing by todays standards, but he is a legend.. Obviously GSP is more skilled, but it's the big weight difference that makes me wonder.

Rickson
02-02-2008, 10:37 AM
Seems like you want me to be. Seems like you really really want me to be.
For a guy who thinks he represents a "macho man", you're really acting like a sensitive bee eye see tee aytch.
It was an honest question, Sauce. A simple yes or no would have been acceptable. Now who's getting sensitive? You still didn't answer the question.


Rickson, do you think GSP would beat a prime Shamrock? Just curious.

Ken in his prime was a tough matchup for anyone in the world, but for some reason Ken can't fight as a light hw. If Ken were forced to cut weight and meet Georges at a catch weight, he would lose, prime or not. If the 2 of them could fight under the old UFC rules with no weight division, Ken would win.

35ft6
02-02-2008, 01:03 PM
LOL. . . that's not nice, 35ft6! :mrgreen: You know he's going to get eaten alive before he knows what's happened. Yeah, but he can just say they're a bunch of punks who don't know what they're talking about. They're just in love with today's fighters, don't understand the history of MMA. That's the beauty of internet forums, nobody ever changes their minds, even as they slowly suffocate beneath the mountain of evidence running counter to their ignorance.I'll tell you this much: TW posters are extremely mild compared to the big mouthed jack asses at sherdog. Out of all the message boards in existence today, none have more jerks than sherdog. MMA fans are a different breed and you'd better believe we have no conscience.There are tons of *****hats here, too. But it's like discussing tennis at Sherdog.com, talking about how you're positive Serena Williams can beat Oliver Rochus in tennis, just look how HUGE she is!? They're pretty insane over there but people way more knowledgeable about MMA, and if HolyGrail is actually interested in learning about MMA, he should test the waters. If he has a lot of emotions and sense of self invested in believing the people in the early UFC are superior to the modern MMA fighter, than maybe it's a waste of his time to be told his wrong by so many punks.

By the way, speaking of size, anybody else see Genki, all 145 pounds of him, beat up 350 pound Butterbean? Skill matters. The early UFC was a series of miss-matches, total freak shows. Some of the Japanese events still like to put freak shows together. But in the early days, every martial artist thought their style was the best. I remember JKD guys were some of the first who would say a good high school wrestler could beat up most black belts in karate, and even an NFL lineman, with no fight training, could beat up most trained fighters by bull rushing them and overwhelming them with strength. The 165 masters of internal styles weren't having it, though. They would respond to that by saying their death touch will make the football player's kidney turn liquify and run out his ****, or they would use some secret technique to kill the wrestler with their breath. The early UFC was great for that, ninja versus thai fighter, sumo versus kick boxer, and big fat bouncer from Alaska versus the King of the Streets.

The JKD guys, the ones who were training Navy Seals, were right. In fact, I've argued that perhaps Bruce Lee is the ideological forefather of MMA. "Use what works." Forget dogma, forget tradition, and forget sticking with one style, take what works from every style, use it. Anyway, they were right, almost every fight can be taken to the ground, and once their, the grappler will always win against somebody who can't grapple. There was also a kung fu studio in Ohio, and their thing was that technique isn't enough, you have to be strong enough to apply the technique to a strong, angry, motivated opponent. They were also right. Now almost all modern MMA fighters are very fit, unlike the fatties in the early MMA who gassed, sometimes, in the first 30 seconds. Cardio and strength.

Royce and Ken dominated at a time when people were ignorant. Most people really believed an 90 year old, 135 pound Chinese man could be invincible if he knew kung fu. But MMA is the truth. It's not streetfighting where you can poke a person's eye out, but it will quickly and painfully reveal the truth about your style of fighting, whether it works or not. That ninja getting elbowed in the face by Patrick Smith, that was a huge turning point I think. I'm sure a lot of people were shocked by that, it was like learning God isn't real. Meanwhile, guys like Bruce Lee had been raving for years about the simple but brutal effectiveness of thai boxing.

Anyway.

35ft6
02-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Tank was a professional bar room brawler :) While all these guys are training thinking they got game because they seen gracie fight, tank was doing his thing every night in the bar man..lol.. Believe me Frank Mirr would not take tank down so easy when he was in his prime...All we can do is speculate. He would probably sustain a devastating KO.. Lets see matt hughes-tito ortiz- fight when they are 40yr old with the current best.Man, now even Tank is better? "Tank in his prime." Hahaha. Didn't Frank Mir just totally toy with Tank? He predicted he wouldn't take a punch or something, and he was right.

Tank was another myth buster. He kind of proved the point that most martial artist couldn't withstand being bull rushed by a super strong football player, or in his case, a bar room brawler with a wrestling background who could bench press 600 pounds. But once the modern MMA fighter began to emerge, he was done. Kimbo is training like an MMA fighter, and he's going to destroy Tank in only his 2nd real MMA fight. I don't count Ray Mercer.

Kevin T
02-02-2008, 01:22 PM
Man, now even Tank is better? "Tank in his prime." Hahaha. Didn't Frank Mir just totally toy with Tank? He predicted he wouldn't take a punch or something, and he was right.

Tank was another myth buster. He kind of proved the point that most martial artist couldn't withstand being bull rushed by a super strong football player, or in his case, a bar room brawler with a wrestling background who could bench press 600 pounds. But once the modern MMA fighter began to emerge, he was done. Kimbo is training like an MMA fighter, and he's going to destroy Tank in only his 2nd real MMA fight. I don't count Ray Mercer.

Does Ray Mercer even know he's Ray Mercer anymore? :) Not so sure, he's taken so many shots to the dome. Couldn't agree more with 35 about the progression of the sport. When I was playing football in college, one of my buddies, a linebacker and 270# of pain had an under-the-table job as a bouncer at a local club. This guy was strong, had a bad temper and had no fear. This was a small town, so you kind of knew everyone. So, one night a local comes into this college kid bar, a local everyone knew as the state and regional JKD bad boy, super cocky, his dad was also a national tourney champ. Well, he starts hitting on this guy's girl, guy gets mad and they square to each other, my bud sees it quickly and intervenes, JKD guy talks smack and squares to my bud, before karate boy knows what's up, my bud has him pinned to the wall with his left arm, then gives him two nasty, nasty hammer fists to the nose, nose flattens like a pancake, blood everywhere, JDK dude is screaming and crying and being drug out the door by his shirt collar. Probably the best "nose explosion" I've seen, much better than Rich Franklin's when Silva whacked him. That's the truth and probably a situation that happens numerous times every night in America.

Hot Sauce
02-02-2008, 01:59 PM
It was an honest question, Sauce. A simple yes or no would have been acceptable. Now who's getting sensitive? You still didn't answer the question.

A simple question with many implications. Let's have a recap of what happened.
You posted a picture and then quickly removed it.
I wanted to see the picture.
You assumed that I wanted to see it because CC said you are good looking. I couldn't care less if you were a good looking guy or not. But isn't it sometimes nice to have a visual image of a person that you constantly hear talking, or even talk to?
You went into a homophobic mode, keeping on with the assumption that I wanted to see your picture because you're "a good looking guy".

But yeah, you're still the sensitive one. You blew this thing WAY out of proportion. Trying to defend CC and all. She doesn't need defending, I didn't say anything remotely offensive at all in a serious context. And for what, because I wanted to see your picture? I think it would be nice if I could put a face to all of the posters on this board.

CanadianChic
02-02-2008, 02:14 PM
What the heck? I leave this thread and look what happens. LOL. Rickson was paid a compliment because I am an honest person and enjoy saying nice things to people. I do not lie. I know you were only teasin with your comments HS, but it was still gentlemanly of Rickson to defend me if he thought I was being insulted.

Rickson - HS is not gay and does not have a man crush on you. I think he only is curious as was I and his message comment was made in jest. I can understand your hesitation to post on this forum though.

Hot Sauce - I think Rickson is teasing a little with you back. I don't really blame him for not wanting to openly post a picture of himself here as the majority of posters are intentionally brutal and insulting (although I have no doubt that you do not fall in this category). Sometimes people tend to defend those who they feel are kind as opposed to the nastiness that is too prevalent here.

Can we all get along again? Here's a little song for you guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJV9EMkv0u4

Hahaha. Group hug!!! ;)

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-02-2008, 02:57 PM
Man, now even Tank is better? "Tank in his prime." Hahaha. Didn't Frank Mir just totally toy with Tank? He predicted he wouldn't take a punch or something, and he was right.

Who cares? He fought a old tank abbott. And if MMA is so much better today what's the UFC doing let a old tank abbot fight anyways? Same with tito-shamrock. Hughes-gracie. None of these were fair fights... I bet hughes fans really believe their hero is better than gracie. Tito better than shamrock- What a JOKE. MMA? He could not even take down gsp. Where the heck is hughes MMA? Obviously he never got the memo that it's literally impossible to fight a gracie practioner without going to the ground.

Kimbo is training like an MMA fighter, and he's going to destroy Tank in only his 2nd real MMA fight. I don't count Ray Mercer.

Of course Kimbo will win now. Although tank would still have a extremely slight punchers chance. Kimbo and tank would go toe to toe like Liddell-silva. A old tank is way more quicker and faster than kimbo. He would of destroyed kimbo in the mid 90's... Kimbo has fought one decent fighter and lost. And again, the ufc wants guys like kimbo- what's that say about the current competition in the ufc? It's a joke and has been for a while now.

Kevin T
02-02-2008, 03:11 PM
Who cares? He fought a old tank abbott. And if MMA is so much better today what's the UFC doing let a old tank abbot fight anyways? Same with tito-shamrock. Hughes-gracie. None of these were fair fights... I bet hughes fans really believe their hero is better than gracie. Tito better than shamrock- What a JOKE. MMA? He could not even take down gsp. Where the heck is hughes MMA? Obviously he never got the memo that it's literally impossible to fight a gracie practioner without going to the ground.



Of course Kimbo will win now. Although tank would still have a extremely slight punchers chance. Kimbo and tank would go toe to toe like Liddell-silva. A old tank is way more quicker and faster than kimbo. He would of destroyed kimbo in the mid 90's... Kimbo has fought one decent fighter and lost. And again, the ufc wants guys like kimbo- what's that say about the current competition in the ufc? It's a joke and has been for a while now.


How about Tank vs. Fedor? Would you actually bet on Tank for that bout? How about Shamrock vs. Fedor? C'mon, be honest. Ever see the fight between Tank and Pedro Rizzo? He got destroyed, plus he's never been past the 1st round of a fight. The better question is what good fighter has Tank beaten? I mean, he got submitted by Maurice Smith...yeah, kickboxing champion Maurice Smith. Knocked out by Paul Buentello?

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-02-2008, 03:26 PM
How about Tank vs. Fedor? Would you actually bet on Tank for that bout? How about Shamrock vs. Fedor? C'mon, be honest. Ever see the fight between Tank and Pedro Rizzo? He got destroyed, plus he's never been past the 1st round of a fight. The better question is what good fighter has Tank beaten? I mean, he got submitted by Maurice Smith...yeah, kickboxing champion Maurice Smith. Knocked out by Paul Buentello?

Tanks longest fight i think was vs Taktorov. 17min or so.. Maurice smith? Rizzo? Good fighters i thought. Again i dont care about tank, fun to watch but the ufc should have the best fighters in the world competing.. The fact that tank fought in the early days and kimbo is now fighting present today, whats that say about the heavweight division and ufc?

35ft6
02-02-2008, 05:04 PM
Does Ray Mercer even know he's Ray Mercer anymore? :) Not so sure, he's taken so many shots to the dome. Couldn't agree more with 35 about the progression of the sport.Yeah, it's not even interesting to discuss. When people start bringing up Tank Abbot as an example of how the fighters of the past were better, it's hard to take them seriously.

Ultra2HolyGrail
02-02-2008, 05:23 PM
Yeah, it's not even interesting to discuss. When people start bringing up Tank Abbot as an example of how the fighters of the past were better, it's hard to take them seriously.


Likewise when you mention Kimbo is now training MMA. And penn is a "heavyweight" fighter caliber. Back to the kiddie sherdog forums.

Ronaldo
03-29-2008, 08:00 PM
Frank Shamrock is scheduled to fight Cung Le in March. These 2 are both great fighters, but I can't root against either one. Frank's a complete fighter with all the tools and Cung is an awesome striker with great takedown defense and great takedowns from his San Shou days. If I absolutely had to pick a winner, I'd pick Frank due to his ground skills and experience over Cung, but I don't want Cung to lose either due to the fact that he's the fastest rising mma star with the best strikes in mma currently. You'd think it would be a good thing to see 2 of your favorite fighters actually fight, but it's a dilemna. Hopefully it goes to the judges because I'd hate to see either fighter's career go downhill due to a KO or a sub.

How bout that bout, eh? New middleweight champ, Cung Le. Broke Frank Shamrock's right arm with his kicks.

35ft6
03-29-2008, 10:02 PM
I had no idea that Kimbo training in MMA was something that could be doubted.

Ronaldo
03-30-2008, 05:16 AM
I had no idea that Kimbo training in MMA was something that could be doubted.

With CBS broadcasting MMA in May, Kimbo Slice will become as well known as Wonder Bread, eh?

35ft6
03-30-2008, 01:14 PM
^ Some say he's already the biggest name in America in MMA. They might have a point. Seriously, it's almost like Rocky or something in real life, the story of a street brawler training hard with a legend to become a real pro fighter.

That Cung Le fight was pretty intense. Frank Shamrock seems like a total jerk sometimes, but man he came off like a true warrior in the fight. I almost want to say his game plan was dumb but 1) Cung Le's take down defense is pretty good, and 2) in the 3rd round, it almost looked like he'd get the knockout, like his plan would work. Who knows, if not for the broken forearm, maybe he could have made something happen in the 4th round, but the way he collapsed, I feel like it wasn't just the forearm, that most likely Cung's side kicks to the ribs were starting to take their toll. Interesting and sort of made me realize that a total stand up fight can almost be as lackluster as a slow moving ground fight. Chuck Norris is starting a fight league on the premise that it's going to emphasize kicks and punches because some think ground work is boring. Chuck doesn't get it, it's about matchups.

Anyway, if Cung fights a grappler the next match, they're probably going to avoid stand up at all costs. Should be interesting.

Hot Sauce
03-30-2008, 01:30 PM
The first two rounds of the fight were really boring. Frank's decision to stick to his word and keep it all stand-up was not the smartest idea. I love how Frank is always taunting, it's like he's having so much fun out there.

Ronaldo
03-30-2008, 01:38 PM
^ Some say he's already the biggest name in America in MMA. They might have a point. Seriously, it's almost like Rocky or something in real life, the story of a street brawler training hard with a legend to become a real pro fighter.

That Cung Le fight was pretty intense. Frank Shamrock seems like a total jerk sometimes, but man he came off like a true warrior in the fight. I almost want to say his game plan was dumb but 1) Cung Le's take down defense is pretty good, and 2) in the 3rd round, it almost looked like he'd get the knockout, like his plan would work. Who knows, if not for the broken forearm, maybe he could have made something happen in the 4th round, but the way he collapsed, I feel like it wasn't just the forearm, that most likely Cung's side kicks to the ribs were starting to take their toll. Interesting and sort of made me realize that a total stand up fight can almost be as lackluster as a slow moving ground fight. Chuck Norris is starting a fight league on the premise that it's going to emphasize kicks and punches because some think ground work is boring. Chuck doesn't get it, it's about matchups.

Anyway, if Cung fights a grappler the next match, they're probably going to avoid stand up at all costs. Should be interesting.

You and Rickson sure know these current fighters well. Never heard of Kimbo or Cung till Showtime had their fights. MMA seems IMHO to be in complete anarchy since the UFC bought Pride. How do you know the best fighters in 6 or more organizations? See a few match-ups on HDNet or the UFC free at Hooters or our local strip joints. Sherdog a good site to learn more?


p.s. Who can shoot in on Cung Le to take him down to the ground at 185 without getting their dome split like a melon?

35ft6
03-30-2008, 02:26 PM
^ There are guys who know waaaaayyyyyyy more than I do. Really, it's Japan and America. I know most of the really good America-based fighters, but only the top few of the Japan-based fighters. Yeah, HDNet and VS. show a lot of great fights from non-UFC organizations. And Sherdog is a good place to hear people dropping names of fighters, than you can watch them on Daily Motion or something.

MMA is still in its formative stages. Right now, the UFC is the 800 pound gorilla but IMO there's no way they're going to remain this huge for much longer. There are just too many smart, connected, and loaded guys coming into the game. They know that MMA is the combat sport of the future and they want in. Elite XC is going to be airing fights on CBS which is just huge. Spike TV and PPV just can't compare to the reach a broadcast network has over mainstream America. Just to have Elite XC associated with a network that has aired some of the most iconic sports events of the past 40 years will be huge for the brand and MMA. It's like a coronation, an official welcoming of MMA into mainstream American sports.

Dana White has taken UFC very far by being a total fascist. By having such a hard nosed isolationist attitude, he's prevented other organizations from really benefiting from UFC's emergence, but things are going to have to change, at some point, they need to acknowledge other fight orgs and try to create a real MMA world. Right now, they're all about the UFC, sometimes almost to the detriment of MMA. But other people will come and offer bigger contracts to the best fighters, and probably more even to the undercard guys, plus, they'll be offering less restrictive contracts, so more money plus more freedom to fight and in front of a bigger TV audience -- don't see how UFC is going to be able to compete with that.

This is going to be a very interesting year for MMA. White is again publicly courting Fedor. Besides that, the countdown to a cross promotional event with UFC and (some other org) begins.

Rickson
03-31-2008, 03:44 AM
p.s. Who can shoot in on Cung Le to take him down to the ground at 185 without getting their dome split like a melon?

Actually, Cung used to wrestle as a kid and takedowns are allowed in San Shou so his mma transition wasn't as tough as for a pure kickboxer. Cung has as much cross training as anyone else in mma so you need not worry about his ground skills.

JohnnyCracker
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
So who do you guys want to see Le fight next? I want to see him against another striker like Baroni or Lawler. That would be a great fight. It sure would not be boring.

Rickson
03-31-2008, 07:50 PM
So who do you guys want to see Le fight next? I want to see him against another striker like Baroni or Lawler. That would be a great fight. It sure would not be boring.

Right now, Cung has too much for those guys to handle. Cung should be fighting a serious threat like the Spider. Now that would be a sick matchup.

Ronaldo
03-31-2008, 07:55 PM
So who do you guys want to see Le fight next? I want to see him against another striker like Baroni or Lawler. That would be a great fight. It sure would not be boring.

Yes, how would Le stack up against Anderson Silva, Paulo Filho, Rich Franklin, Dan Henderson, or Matt Lindland?

Rickson
03-31-2008, 07:57 PM
Yes, how would Le stack up against Anderson Silva, Paulo Filho, Rich Franklin, Dan Henderson, or Matt Lindland?

Cung Le would beat all of the above except the Spider.

35ft6
03-31-2008, 09:01 PM
IMO, I haven't seen anything to suggest he could hang with Henderson or Lindland. They would be a step up from Frank, and seriously, Frank had him in trouble at the end of round 3. I like his chances against Franklin, and I've only seen Paulo fight once or twice, but fine, maybe he has the edge. Dan or Matt, that would be interesting. I think Silva would beat him relatively easily but the standup would be amazing.

Rickson
03-31-2008, 09:12 PM
Prime Tito would destroy prime Ken.

I totally disagree, but this is something we can never find out. Ken was an absolute monster in the 90s, but age and a lack of his spinach (steroids) has made him vulnerable in the 21st century. Ken should retire, but he's just too stubborn. If Ken wants to leave mma with a W, he should fight an absolute scrub because atm, Ken is at the bottom of the barrel and he can not win against anyone other than the worst of the worst in mma. His last opponent, Buzz Berry, is considered a mma hw scrub and he still lost.

Ronaldo
04-01-2008, 07:27 AM
Brought up this list as both Cung Le and Shamrock are not listed in the top 10 middleweights according to www.gowamma.com. Btw, are the Wamma rankings biased?

equinox
04-01-2008, 08:56 AM
Where are the sumo in MMA?

Hot Sauce
04-01-2008, 12:23 PM
I think Nog should be above Couture.

Ronaldo
04-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Where are the sumo in MMA?

Haven't seen a Sumo guy since UFC I when that big guy got his tooth kicked out.

35ft6
04-01-2008, 01:52 PM
Brought up this list as both Cung Le and Shamrock are not listed in the top 10 middleweights according to www.gowamma.com. Btw, are the Wamma rankings biased?They've been talking about Wamma quite a bit on Inside MMA. Their goal is to be as objective as possible. They feel that until there's a "definitive" list, sponsors and mainstream America won't be as interested in MMA as they might be otherwise. Once you can say this is for sure, for example, the best heavyweight fighter in the world, sponsors might be interested in working with him and the general sports loving public might become more interested. Plus, it will help the credibility of other fight organizations who have great fighters who can hang with anybody in the UFC, but are almost unknown because they're not a part of the UFC. Also, they're hoping that once this list gains credibility, fighters and the fight organizations will be more motivated to have cross promotional matchups. If the UFC champ is ranked number 2 behind a WEC or IFL or K-1 fighter, they might want to prove they're in fact better and pressure the UFC to cross promote or to make their contracts less restrictive. Of course one fighter's demands won't make the UFC change their policies over night, but if WAMMA succeeds, we should see incremental shifts that eventually results in the UFC changing its isolationist approach to MMA.

35ft6
04-01-2008, 01:56 PM
As for Cung Le and Shamrock, I agree that neither should be rated top 10. They haven't beaten anybody top 15 caliber yet/in a long time.

I don't think Fedor should be ranked number 1 in the heavyweights either. He hasn't fought anybody awesome in a long time. Too long if you're going to be considered the top fighter in the world.

Ronaldo
04-01-2008, 06:10 PM
As for Cung Le and Shamrock, I agree that neither should be rated top 10. They haven't beaten anybody top 15 caliber yet/in a long time.

I don't think Fedor should be ranked number 1 in the heavyweights either. He hasn't fought anybody awesome in a long time. Too long if you're going to be considered the top fighter in the world.

Tough to fight the best when the UFC champ won't fight Fedor. Perhaps when Couture fights Fedor that will settle who's #1. Would be great to see a year-long tournament like in Pride for each weight division, eh? Imagine that PPV

Hot Sauce
04-01-2008, 07:24 PM
Fedor vs. Couture.. the match-up that everybody has been wishing for but doesn't look like it will become a reality.

Rickson
04-01-2008, 07:26 PM
Fedor vs. Couture.. the match-up that everybody has been wishing for but doesn't look like it will become a reality.

Kimbo vs. Fedor looks like a reality at some point.

Hot Sauce
04-01-2008, 07:57 PM
Really? I don't think that would be a close fight at all.

35ft6
04-03-2008, 10:53 PM
Fedor vs. Couture.. the match-up that everybody has been wishing for but doesn't look like it will become a reality.The guys themselves think it's only a matter of time. Couture can do whatever he wants regardless of UFC by Fall I think. And Fedor is down. Dana is publicly courting Fedor again. If they can have a "UFC fighter" take down Fedor, it would probably put the Pride was/is superior talk for good.

Hot Sauce
04-03-2008, 11:05 PM
Fedor agreed to fight Couture? I thought he had obligations to some Russian Sambo league.