Rate these guys...

[Jonny S&V]

I know that there are a lot of these ones on the boards, but these guys seemed really good, and I wan't to see what level (NTRP please) you think these guys are (I say the guy closer to the camera is a 4.5-5.0 and the other one is a 4.0-4.5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE0DZC_Hh9s

[Jonny S&V]

Granted they are just warming up, that is...

[moxio]

Wow, those guys are great!

Guy in foreground especially.... at least 4.5

[snoopy]

I agree with the guy in the foreground being atleast a 4.5. It looks like he's hitting a nice consistent deep ball with ease. I do think he has some footwork and rotation issues. On his forehand he seems flat footed. Plus he doesn't recover quickly. Then again, the op said they were just warming up.

Videos like this make tennis look so easy. Me, I can't get depth, power, and consistency. My shots are short, more often then not, very weak, and ususally long or hit into the net. I'll keep trying but boy do I suck, ha ha.

[Moz]

I would say the guy in the foreground is at least a 5.0. Power, depth and although he doesn't seem to be moving quickly has time.

[Andres]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjlClQi62Kc

Niiiiice underhand dropvolley ;)

[WBF]

(For guy in foreground)

5.0 at the very least.

Depth. Relative consistency on powerful shots. Good footwork.

And a ****ing lefty. Make that 5.5.

:p

*edit*
Watched again. He doesn't miss a single shot that you can see. Definately 5.0 or higher, leaning towards higher though.

[TENNIS_IS_FUN]

if there were such a thing, i'd rate him a 5.25.

[TENNIS_IS_FUN]

The guy in the red isnt too bad either...if there were such a thing, i'd rank him a 4.75. Also, the video looks very biased...best rallys of a 2 hr hitting session? maybe.

[Sliceboy2]

Pretty solid groundstrokes, I'd say 5.0

[dricas24]

yeah foreground is definitely a 5.0 and background is around a 4.5

[morten]

impossible to rank without seing them playing points, a whole different ballgame that is...

[Thud and blunder]

impossible to rank without seing them playing points

Rubbish...

The majority of human existence comprises induction from limited information. "Is that lion dangerous?" "I don't know. I'd have to see it bite someone". Get with the program.

[AmericanTemplar]

Rubbish...

The majority of human existence comprises induction from limited information. "Is that lion dangerous?" "I don't know. I'd have to see it bite someone". Get with the program.

Good call! But the question is: is ones mental game figured into ones NTRP rating? And if so, is ones mental game exhibited when nothing is at stake?

[quicken]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjlClQi62Kc

Niiiiice underhand dropvolley ;)

wow that is an @$$ hole shot ... lol
pretty good though lol

[WBF]

Good call! But the question is: is ones mental game figured into ones NTRP rating? And if so, is ones mental game exhibited when nothing is at stake?

One's mental game *rarely* makes even a level of difference. The chances that this guy suffers a poor mental game that takes him down a whole level are not worth considering. Based on what we KNOW, he has the game of *at least* a 5.0 player. He has solid forehands, very solid backhands, can play deep balls, short balls, even an outball, has no problem blocking back a big first serve, and constructing an excellent point that finishes with a sweet drop volley. From what we *know* I would say 5.0 and up. If you could extrapolate his ability to hit well and use specialty shots like the drop volley (as opposed to that just being a lucky shot) against better players, and that the rest of his game (volleys, serves) are similar in quality, I would imagine he is a 5.5 or even higher level player.

Does anyone know who this is or info on actual results? I'm quite curious.

[Rickson]

I know that there are a lot of these ones on the boards, but these guys seemed really good, and I wan't to see what level (NTRP please) you think these guys are (I say the guy closer to the camera is a 4.5-5.0 and the other one is a 4.0-4.5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE0DZC_Hh9s

That lefty didn't make a single error. Lefty would be very tough to beat from the baseline.

[TonLars]

Looks like a good player with all the shots to me, must be around 5.5 unless he has a match problem

[es-0]

I couldn't say what level either one was, but everyone else's assessments seem good enough to me...

The guy in the foreground has some very nice strokes, in my opinion, a beautiful one-hander. My only issue is with his forehand, and is also most likely purely aesthetic, is that his off hand doesn't tuck into his body but just drops down and hugs his side in most cases...

Does anyone know if tucking the arm in will make any significant difference technique wise, or is it just an idiosyncrasy?

[CAM178]

5.0 for the guy in blue, and 4.5 for guy in red. The guy in blue seems like kind of a tool, to me. Poor etiquette: he keeps staring at other courts, smacking winners, etc. That's just a personal thing with me: I can't stand when I hit with someone and they hit winners or hit the crap out of the ball when it's a 70% rally (as in 70% of max pace). He knows he's better than the guy in red, and takes advantage of that. And the guy in blue is obviously trying to get the attention of someone on another court, as he keeps staring over there. If I were the guy in red, I would ask the guy in blue to just man up and go get her number. :mrgreen:

[CAM178]

My only issue is with his forehand, and is also most likely purely aesthetic, is that his off hand doesn't tuck into his body but just drops down and hugs his side in most cases...
Does anyone know if tucking the arm in will make any significant difference technique wise, or is it just an idiosyncrasy?
Hey, it works for this guy. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' He's got great timing, and seems very comfortable no matter where the ball is hit. His court coverage is very strong, too. He obviously spends a lot of time on court to have that much comfort. One FH in particular really caught my attention: at the 1:05 mark. He takes that back and flattens it with ease. That's the mark of a strong player, to me, as that is not an easy shot to hit.

[WBF]

5.0 for the guy in blue, and 4.5 for guy in red. The guy in blue seems like kind of a tool, to me. Poor etiquette: he keeps staring at other courts, smacking winners, etc. That's just a personal thing with me: I can't stand when I hit with someone and they hit winners or hit the crap out of the ball when it's a 70% rally (as in 70% of max pace). He knows he's better than the guy in red, and takes advantage of that. And the guy in blue is obviously trying to get the attention of someone on another court, as he keeps staring over there. If I were the guy in red, I would ask the guy in blue to just man up and go get her number. :mrgreen:

And he is wearing a hat.

Indoors.

wtf?

[CAM178]

And he is wearing a hat.
Indoors.
wtf?
LMAO. . . I wasn't going to say it. Don't know how you can be gangsta (yes, with an 'a') when you're playing tennis. . . . yo.

[Rickson]

A British gangsta?

[madmanfool]

clothing 2.0
tennis 4.5 or higher, but not lower

[Moz]

If I were the guy in red, I would ask the guy in blue to just man up and go get her number.

I already asked her and she said no. He shouldn't waste his time - obviously a lesbian.

[drakulie]

Without a question, both guys are well over 3.0.

[AmericanTemplar]

LMAO. . . I wasn't going to say it. Don't know how you can be gangsta (yes, with an 'a') when you're playing tennis. . . . yo.

I still wear a hat when I'm playing at night. I wear them just as much for sweat abosorbtion as I do to keep the sun out of my eyes.

[WBF]

Does anyone notice the slight high pitched constipated sound the close guy makes as he swings?

[CAM178]

LOL. . . I love how we just completely dissect these guys, and now we're questioning their masculinity. Moz, Templar, & WBF: good stuff. :mrgreen:

[AmericanTemplar]

Does anyone notice the slight high pitched constipated sound the close guy makes as he swings?

I did notice that. I thought that maybe he was playing with turtle head.

[Duzza]

Without a question, both guys are well over 3.0.

I would go as far as to say over 2.5 as well.

[es-0]

Hey, it works for this guy. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that he change it or anything. I was just curious if tucking the arm in would make any kind of difference besides an aesthetic one.

[THSBOI]

Seriously the guy with the red strings has a nice one hander and the other dude has a cool two hand they are good at groundstrokes, but what about serves? i want to see it =P then we can rate him fully, but right now i would rate both of them 5.0 because they have solid groundstrokes

[Jonny S&V]

He just added this to his comments, but he says his Liquidmetal Radical is leaded up to 390 grams. He swings it like it's a twig, not a log!

[kirschbomb]

People seem better playing in indoor courts because you can really hear the loud "pop", so it seems as if they are hitting the ball harder

[Leelord337]

5.0+open level for the guy w/the beanie and the guy w/the red shirt a 4.5-5.0

I particularly like the beanie's backhand. the red shirt has a strong backhand as well but the forehand is a little shaky.

[quicken]

People seem better playing in indoor courts because you can really hear the loud "pop", so it seems as if they are hitting the ball harder

Thats what I noticed too, I think the sound effect really adds to the "oomphness" of the video.

[blackfrido]

Without a question, both guys are well over 3.0.

yes, you're right!

[FedererISBetter]

Great Vid btw, those two peeps got some solid strokes... especially the guy with the beanie. I say a 5.5... I play totally different lol... thats some power players right there.

[NamRanger]

4.5 max, I wouldn't say 5.0


5.0 is closing in on College Level tennis.

[WBF]

4.5 max, I wouldn't say 5.0


5.0 is closing in on College Level tennis.

This is incorrect.

1.) College players range from the lowest of tennis players participating on teams with no depth, to players who likely could go pro while in college. There is no such thing as "College Level".

2.) You say "max". Given the limited range of situations portrayed in the video, you cannot issue these players (particularly the one we see clearly in the foreground) a "maximum" rating. You could potentially say the same thing about a minimum rating, but keep in mind the chances of a players skills being on the same or similar levels across their game is far more likely than someone having 5.0+ groundstrokes with everything else being on a lower level.

Regardless, you are wrong. I sincerely doubt the player in the foreground is a 4.5 or even in that vicinity, and there is no way that you can say he is a maximum of 4.5, that's just absurd.

[hyogen]

subscribed...let me see when i get home :D

[NamRanger]

This is incorrect.

1.) College players range from the lowest of tennis players participating on teams with no depth, to players who likely could go pro while in college. There is no such thing as "College Level".

2.) You say "max". Given the limited range of situations portrayed in the video, you cannot issue these players (particularly the one we see clearly in the foreground) a "maximum" rating. You could potentially say the same thing about a minimum rating, but keep in mind the chances of a players skills being on the same or similar levels across their game is far more likely than someone having 5.0+ groundstrokes with everything else being on a lower level.

Regardless, you are wrong. I sincerely doubt the player in the foreground is a 4.5 or even in that vicinity, and there is no way that you can say he is a maximum of 4.5, that's just absurd.



I guess you've never watched a college match in person. Try watching Baylor, UCLA, or any other top men's team and they make these guys look like idiots.


I gave him a maximum rating of 4.5, which I think is accurate. It's possible he could be much lower. At best he's a 4.5. No way he's anywhere above that. Most upper D2 college players are at the 5.0 level if not higher, depending on which schools you are looking at. A good D1 school is at least 6.0


By "College Level Tennis" I meant D2 or higher. But I guess since your infrencing skills are terrible, I can excuse your ignorance of College tennis and tennis in general.

[Moz]

How on earth where any of us supposed to infer that from your post?

[NamRanger]

How on earth where any of us supposed to infer that from your post?


Usually because when most people talk about College Level tennis, it's about Upper D2 to D1 level schools. He's trying to make it look like I was including community college teams.



Most people seem to think just because the guy has good groundstrokes and he is a lefty automatically makes him a high level player. Anyone can develop great looking strokes, the question is how he plays in a match. Never seeing him play in a match, you could hardly make an accurate guess of how good he really is. Tony Lars had a video of him warming up, and most people were saying he was a 3.5, and he's far from that.

[Moz]

Well if 5.0 is approaching college level - I'm not sure how one could conclude they aren't at least approaching that level.

Understood practice strokes - is there something you can see from their game that is missing you'd expect to see from a 5.0?

Just curious.

[WBF]

I guess you've never watched a college match in person. Try watching Baylor, UCLA, or any other top men's team and they make these guys look like idiots.


I gave him a maximum rating of 4.5, which I think is accurate. It's possible he could be much lower. At best he's a 4.5. No way he's anywhere above that. Most upper D2 college players are at the 5.0 level if not higher, depending on which schools you are looking at. A good D1 school is at least 6.0


By "College Level Tennis" I meant D2 or higher. But I guess since your infrencing skills are terrible, I can excuse your ignorance of College tennis and tennis in general.

I don't watch much tennis, I play it. I've played guys on various levels, from beginners to D1 singles players. All indications point to this guy being at 5.0 or higher. I sincerely disagree that D1 players make him look like an idiot, these people aren't superhumans, they just have very solid games with the fitness to back it up every shot of every point in long matches, and usually have arsenals including (you guessed it) specialty shots like the sick dropshot he hits in the second video. I'm not saying this guy *would* beat top college players, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is above a 4.5, and could possibly beat high level college players. You are doing exactly what people did with TonLars by the way.

[tennispro11]

Usually because when most people talk about College Level tennis, it's about Upper D2 to D1 level schools. He's trying to make it look like I was including community college teams.



Most people seem to think just because the guy has good groundstrokes and he is a lefty automatically makes him a high level player. Anyone can develop great looking strokes, the question is how he plays in a match. Never seeing him play in a match, you could hardly make an accurate guess of how good he really is. Tony Lars had a video of him warming up, and most people were saying he was a 3.5, and he's far from that.

You are an idiot. The lefty is easily a 5.5. He was consistent and hit with pace. He picked up shots on both sides that would cause most people to make errors. Like the guy he was hitting with, he missed the shots the lefty made. If you look how he sets up for his shots, his timing is very, very good. I watched this through five times to see if I thought I could be wrong. I am not on this.

T

[NamRanger]

Well if 5.0 is approaching college level - I'm not sure how one could conclude they aren't at least approaching that level.

Understood practice strokes - is there something you can see from their game that is missing you'd expect to see from a 5.0?

Just curious.


Playing in warm-ups vs playing in real match play when a true 5.0 player can rip a 80-90 mph forehand at will is a whole different story. All we can infer from is that he can hit solid strokes from a warm-up perspective. Sure, he can hit good groundstrokes in non-pressure situations. Everything changes when you are in a pressure situation. They hit with a decent amount of pace, but in no way shape or form are they anywhere near a D1 player.


I've seen the guys who play at Baylor, a top D1 school, in real life. The pace that they play at is much faster then these guys do. Alot faster. They would make the lefty guy look like a joke, probably handing him a bagel or two. Heck, they bagel guys from D1 schools let alone some guy off of YouTube.


And TonyLars you really couldn't tell his rating from videoes to be honest. You had to look up his ranking and results to really tell. So unless this guy has plays in Open Tournaments and actually has decent results, I'm not going to nudge him above 4.5 in my book. There's plenty of 5.0+ players with some really ugly looking groundstrokes, yet they win because of smart play and experience. When you get to D1 level, then you start seeing true professional level groundstrokes.


Alot of people on these boards just try and tell a player's level based on his groundstrokes in WARM-UPS. Do professional tennis players look amazing when they are warming up? Not really. There's a big difference in match-play and warm-up/training sessions. The best indicator of someone's level is to see their results in tournaments/league play. Not some ground stroke video.

[CAM178]

I guess you've never watched a college match in person. Try watching Baylor, UCLA, or any other top men's team and they make these guys look like idiots.
I gave him a maximum rating of 4.5, which I think is accurate. It's possible he could be much lower. At best he's a 4.5. No way he's anywhere above that. Most upper D2 college players are at the 5.0 level if not higher, depending on which schools you are looking at. A good D1 school is at least 6.0
By "College Level Tennis" I meant D2 or higher. But I guess since your infrencing skills are terrible, I can excuse your ignorance of College tennis and tennis in general.
I seriously question your tennis knowledge. That's great if you've seen top D1 schools, but that does not mean they're 'college players'. Most of those guys you've seen are playing Futures, so they're hardly 'college players'. And trust in WBF: he just went pretty deep into a national men's open with no prior training, so I trust his word. Likely he would clown plenty of what you consider 'college players'.

And WBF is right: there is no such thing as a 'college player'. I clowned some college players in men's open for a few years, and that was only a few years back. But I would get clowned against top D1 players, I'm sure. But the depth of talent in college tennis makes it impossible to label someone a college player. I beat a guy on a D2 team 0 & 0 just 3 years ago. But like I said, I guarantee that a guy from a top D1 school would double bagel me.

And 4.5? There is no way that guy is 4.5. He is not even stroking it hard, and he's clowning the other guy, who is a solid player. If that guy in the foreground were actually trying, he could easily shift into 2 if not 3 other gears. He is merely screwing around out there. He is easily a 5.0 player. His court sense, stroke production, and movement are easily 5.0. Hell, I bet if he were in a match he would be considered a 5.5, as something tells me this kid could easily light it up.

[CAM178]

Deleted (10 char.)

[Moz]

Playing in warm-ups vs playing in real match play when a true 5.0 player can rip a 80-90 mph forehand at will is a whole different story. All we can infer from is that he can hit solid strokes from a warm-up perspective. Sure, he can hit good groundstrokes in non-pressure situations. Everything changes when you are in a pressure situation. They hit with a decent amount of pace, but in no way shape or form are they anywhere near a D1 player.


I've seen the guys who play at Baylor, a top D1 school, in real life. The pace that they play at is much faster then these guys do. Alot faster. They would make the lefty guy look like a joke, probably handing him a bagel or two. Heck, they bagel guys from D1 schools let alone some guy off of YouTube.


And TonyLars you really couldn't tell his rating from videoes to be honest. You had to look up his ranking and results to really tell. So unless this guy has plays in Open Tournaments and actually has decent results, I'm not going to nudge him above 4.5 in my book. There's plenty of 5.0+ players with some really ugly looking groundstrokes, yet they win because of smart play and experience. When you get to D1 level, then you start seeing true professional level groundstrokes.


Alot of people on these boards just try and tell a player's level based on his groundstrokes in WARM-UPS. Do professional tennis players look amazing when they are warming up? Not really. There's a big difference in match-play and warm-up/training sessions. The best indicator of someone's level is to see their results in tournaments/league play. Not some ground stroke video.

Earlier you rated them at 4.5 max.

Then you say you can't judge someone's level in a warm-up. These guys are warming up. As you say some 5.0's plus have ugly shots and you say this guy has good groundstrokes. So how can you possibly say they are 4.5 and no more.

So what you are really saying is you can't tell how good they are from a video and what you're not saying is they are 4.5 max. You can't have it both ways mate.

Anyway, I suppose it's not a big deal anyway...:)

[NamRanger]

Earlier you rated them at 4.5 max.

Then you say you can't judge someone's level in a warm-up. These guys are warming up. As you say some 5.0's plus have ugly shots and you say this guy has good groundstrokes. So how can you possibly say they are 4.5 and no more.

So what you are really saying is you can't tell how good they are from a video and what you're not saying is they are 4.5 max. You can't have it both ways mate.

Anyway, I suppose it's not a big deal anyway...:)


True. But I guess you know, we're all tennis experts on this board. I just don't think you can really predict accurately from a 2 minute video of a warm-up session. I usually put ratings from videoes at a lower end of the spectrum because, honestly, I've seen some players with modern nice looking groundies get schooled by oldschool guys simply because the older player has more experience and knows what to do in almost every situation.


And most top D1 players aren't just Sat players, they are much higher then that. Bejaman Becker jumped straight from Baylor to the ATP tour within a matter of weeks, and although he isn't the best guy out there, he's done well for himself. Alot of the top D1 players now adays are foreign players with alot of professional experience (at least at the top 5 D1 schools). Alot of schools aren't going after native U.S. citizens anymore, and are importing alot of players over (that is, the big schools). Isner is one of the few exceptions to that rule.


You think he can ball from just watching him warm-up? Funny. Let's see him play in a Open Level tournament or a Sat, then we'll see if he can ball for real or not. Otherwise, I still don't think he's THAT good. Not saying he isn't a good player, but you guys are overrating him by just abit, especially when you've seen 5 minutes of footage of the guy.

[drakulie]

Playing in warm-ups vs playing in real match play when a true 5.0 player can rip a 80-90 mph forehand at will is a whole different story.

Huh?? Nam, you are way wrong. Pros are ripping 80-90 mph FH at will. 5.0's could do it, but not at will. People have this false sense that 5.0's are "God Like". they aren't.

They hit with a decent amount of pace, but in no way shape or form are they anywhere near a D1 player.

Again, wrong. These guys are hitting the piss out of the ball, whether you are able to notice it from the video or not.

I've taken plenty of vids at the nationals (30's and 45's), which include 5.0s to 6.5's and these guys are hitting just as hard, if not harder.

[raiden031]

I've seen a handful of 4.5 players in person and even played against one or two in doubles and will say that none of them look as solid as these guys in the video, especially the one in the foreground. I have seen one guy at my club that I know is a 5.0 and I don't think his strokes look any better than these guys either.

[WBF]

True. But I guess you know, we're all tennis experts on this board. I just don't think you can really predict accurately from a 2 minute video of a warm-up session. I usually put ratings from videoes at a lower end of the spectrum because, honestly, I've seen some players with modern nice looking groundies get schooled by oldschool guys simply because the older player has more experience and knows what to do in almost every situation.


And most top D1 players aren't just Sat players, they are much higher then that. Bejaman Becker jumped straight from Baylor to the ATP tour within a matter of weeks, and although he isn't the best guy out there, he's done well for himself. Alot of the top D1 players now adays are foreign players with alot of professional experience (at least at the top 5 D1 schools). Alot of schools aren't going after native U.S. citizens anymore, and are importing alot of players over (that is, the big schools). Isner is one of the few exceptions to that rule.


You think he can ball from just watching him warm-up? Funny. Let's see him play in a Open Level tournament or a Sat, then we'll see if he can ball for real or not. Otherwise, I still don't think he's THAT good. Not saying he isn't a good player, but you guys are overrating him by just abit, especially when you've seen 5 minutes of footage of the guy.

My main argument was that giving him a strict max rating was silly. While I tried to postulate his rating based on a few things, I do agree that you can't tell someone's exact level from a warmup video... But you can get a good idea at times.

[JackSkellington]

I think he plays futures in Europe. No rating until we see some match play (except for his drop video).

[NamRanger]

My main argument was that giving him a strict max rating was silly. While I tried to postulate his rating based on a few things, I do agree that you can't tell someone's exact level from a warmup video... But you can get a good idea at times.



The video is at a level where balls can appear to be faster too. It may or may not be that they are hitting it hard as you and everyone else is saying, but I'd like to see some sort of results before I'd say they are at the level you guys are saying they are.

[JackSkellington]

True. But I guess you know, we're all tennis experts on this board. I just don't think you can really predict accurately from a 2 minute video of a warm-up session. I usually put ratings from videoes at a lower end of the spectrum because, honestly, I've seen some players with modern nice looking groundies get schooled by oldschool guys simply because the older player has more experience and knows what to do in almost every situation.


And most top D1 players aren't just Sat players, they are much higher then that. Bejaman Becker jumped straight from Baylor to the ATP tour within a matter of weeks, and although he isn't the best guy out there, he's done well for himself. Alot of the top D1 players now adays are foreign players with alot of professional experience (at least at the top 5 D1 schools). Alot of schools aren't going after native U.S. citizens anymore, and are importing alot of players over (that is, the big schools). Isner is one of the few exceptions to that rule.


You think he can ball from just watching him warm-up? Funny. Let's see him play in a Open Level tournament or a Sat, then we'll see if he can ball for real or not. Otherwise, I still don't think he's THAT good. Not saying he isn't a good player, but you guys are overrating him by just abit, especially when you've seen 5 minutes of footage of the guy.

All I have to say about this is: wrong.

[NamRanger]

All I have to say about this is: wrong.


Prove me wrong by showing me results rather then just saying I'm wrong. I'm just saying I don't think he's a 5.0 simply because there hasn't been enough shown to justify that he is a 5.0.

[drakulie]

Prove me wrong

Here are two former pros. Both are currently 5.5+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W2pW0ANGH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldYLo60taO4


Here is a former pro, who is currently a 6.0 +


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZgQ2lbCpO0


None of these guys are ripping the ball 80-90 mph like you stated. So there! You are wrong.

The guys in the vids of this thread are definitely 5.0+ players. CONVINCINGLY!

[CantBeBeat2]

Here are two former pros. Both are currently 5.5+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W2pW0ANGH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldYLo60taO4


Here is a former pro, who is currently a 6.0 +


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZgQ2lbCpO0


None of these guys are ripping the ball 80-90 mph like you stated. So there! You are wrong.

The guys in the vids of this thread are definitely 5.0+ players. CONVINCINGLY!


no offense but those guys in those videos are garbage and im a 5.0 player and they would make me look like a 20.0 player *sarcasm* but still they would make me look really really good. lol

[NamRanger]

Here are two former pros. Both are currently 5.5+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W2pW0ANGH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldYLo60taO4


Here is a former pro, who is currently a 6.0 +


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZgQ2lbCpO0


None of these guys are ripping the ball 80-90 mph like you stated. So there! You are wrong.

The guys in the vids of this thread are definitely 5.0+ players. CONVINCINGLY!


Your videoes prove my point. You can't tell how good those players are from those points. The best you can see how good they are is the fact that one of them hit quite a nasty kick serve. Otherwise, it's not easy to tell if they are as good as they are just from a few seconds.


I also said prove me wrong with results in tournaments/league play, not videoes.

[CAM178]

Can't believe Nam didn't bite my inflammatory post earlier (now deleted). . . was just trying to have some fun. :) But I'm glad that nobody got mad while I was gone.

I can't speak for others as to why they're saying he's a 5.0. To me, a 5.0 has a solid mastery of strokes, and can make even difficult shots (his baseline half-volleys at full steam) look easy. A 5.0 can also hit winners at will, as this kid does.

Is the video long enough to give a solid rating? No. Does video skew perceptions, based on how it is shot? Yes. But keep in mind that you shouldn't need to see someone play for very long to assess whether or not they can play. This kid was warmed up in the video, so I can tell that he's not 'cold'. I think he can play, but that's just my opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. To put it a different way: I would not be ecstatic to see him across the net during warm-up.

The other thing I just noticed about the guy in blue, that lets me know he's a 5.0+: he keeps putting the ball back in the same spot on the court for the other guy, from the middle to the end of the video, when they are supposed to be drilling (I say supposed to be because the guy in red is not hitting it crosscourt, which they are obviously supposed to be doing). Besides a few shots in the beginning of the video, I think the guy in blue would make a great hitting partner. It's not often that you can find someone who can hit the ball to the same spot with every shot, no matter if he's getting crap to deal with (the red guy giving him half-volley groundies to deal with). The only shot that throws me off is when he hits the high sitter. His stroke on that looks pretty awkward. Based on the rest of his game, I thought that stroke would look almost frightening, and it looked anything but.

[TonLars]

Tony Lars had a video of him warming up, and most people were saying he was a 3.5, and he's far from that.

lol at the 3.5

Just thought id give a little of my take on this. I think WBF did a good job of explaining everything earlier. You made the point about my videos, and then looked up my results to see more accurately where im at. It definitely does makes sense that we would need to see these guys in a match, serving, moving, competing, or look at results to really "know". But looking at my videos, stroke wise it is much less impressive than the videos posted here. Ive improved a large amount since the videos I posted of myself to be seen. I dont think we can put a "max" rating on them; they could be anywhere from 4.5 to 5.5, maybe more hard to say from this video. But they definitely got some shot making ability that isnt any worse than a very good college player, just looking at a warmup hitting session. He has perfectly fine groundstrokes. The reason the near-side player would lose to anyone certainly wouldnt be because he has worse groundstrokes.

[NamRanger]

lol at the 3.5

Just thought id give a little of my take on this. I think WBF did a good job of explaining everything earlier. You made the point about my videos, and then looked up my results to see more accurately where im at. It definitely does makes sense that we would need to see these guys in a match, serving, moving, competing, or look at results to really "know". But looking at my videos, stroke wise it is much less impressive than the videos posted here. Ive improved a large amount since the videos I posted of myself to be seen. I dont think we can put a "max" rating on them; they could be anywhere from 4.5 to 5.5, maybe more hard to say from this video. But they definitely got some shot making ability that isnt any worse than a very good college player, just looking at a warmup hitting session. He has perfectly fine groundstrokes. The reason the near-side player would lose to anyone certainly wouldnt be because he has worse groundstrokes.



I'm not saying he's not a good player, I defintely think that he could possibly be somewhere around 5.0 or higher in terms of ground stroke ability. But untill I see some results from tournaments or league play, I'm still going to have to be at least a little skeptical about his entire game overall. That or I would have to watch him play a match in real life. Drak showed us what 5.0+ players look like when they play a real match, and it defintely doesn't look pretty.


Groundstrokes aren't everything. Looking good isn't everything. When you are competing at the highest level, it's about winning. Sure it's nice to look good while winning, but I wouldn't mind winning ugly as long as I get the job done. My whole point is that you can't just say just because he has good groundstrokes it automatically makes him a very good player. If that's the case, guys like Safin, Berdych, and Gasquet should be the best players in the world because they have excellent looking groundies. But they aren't the very best. Why? Because there's more to tennis then just simply hitting good looking groundies.

[WildVolley]

no offense but those guys in those videos are garbage and im a 5.0 player and they would make me look like a 20.0 player *sarcasm* but still they would make me look really really good. lol

Drakulie just made another newbie look stupid. The guy in the third video playing the really ugly service return point is a former professional who was recently ranking #1 in the USA in his age group.

Really pretty strokes don't mean you are a high ranking player, but video showing pretty strokes, good depth, and consistency certainly makes it easier to assume a player should be highly ranked.

A lot of people think they have beautiful strokes until they see themselves on video.

[CantBeBeat2]

i agree. i cant believe that the players posted above are of that level. the one guys forehand looks pathetic like he barely knows how to play the game of tennis. he doesnt even follow through right or drive through the ball. pathetic really..

[CantBeBeat2]

Drakulie just made another newbie look stupid. The guy in the third video playing the really ugly service return point is a former professional who was recently ranking #1 in the USA in his age group.

Really pretty strokes don't mean you are a high ranking player, but video showing pretty strokes, good depth, and consistency certainly makes it easier to assume a player should be highly ranked.

A lot of people think they have beautiful strokes until they see themselves on video.
I find that hard o believe. give me a name then i will believe it. that guy looks like he just started playing tennis.

[CAM178]

A lot of people think they have beautiful strokes until they see themselves on video.
My nomination for quote of the year. Very true.

[TonLars]

no offense but those guys in those videos are garbage and im a 5.0 player and they would make me look like a 20.0 player *sarcasm* but still they would make me look really really good. lol

Yeah, I wont call them "garbage" but at the same time I have major difficulties seeing those players in the videos drakulie posted as "current" 5.5 and 6 players. By age alone, I am completely certain the 3rd is not 6.0. Im sure they are excellent players for their age though, considering they are in the 45 and older group; they are possibly highly ranked nationally. Looking a bit slow though in their movement (for that rating level), and the 3rd video really didnt look too sharp. I would have no doubt they maybe were excellent players 10-20 years ago though if that was the claim. No reason these guys cant play at the 5.0 national level if theyre experienced and match tough.

[CantBeBeat2]

Yeah, I wont call them "garbage" but at the same time I have major difficulties seeing those players in the videos drakulie posted as "current" 5.5 and 6 players. Im sure they are excellent players for their age though, considering they are in the 45 and older group. Looking a bit slow though in their movement, and the 3rd video really didnt look too sharp. I would have no doubt they maybe were excellent players 10-20 years ago though if that was the claim.

exactly, well put. Maybe they were that level at an earlier stage in their life but they seemed to of lost it. Really just look at the videos the one dude couldnt even return a back hand slice that was going 5 mph...

[WildVolley]

Yeah, I wont call them "garbage" but at the same time I have major difficulties seeing those players in the videos drakulie posted as "current" 5.5 and 6 players. By age alone, I am completely certain the 3rd is not 6.0. Im sure they are excellent players for their age though, considering they are in the 45 and older group; they are possibly highly ranked nationally. Looking a bit slow though in their movement (for that rating level), and the 3rd video really didnt look too sharp. I would have no doubt they maybe were excellent players 10-20 years ago though if that was the claim. No reason these guys cant play at the 5.0 national level if theyre experienced and match tough.

The last video Drakulie posted was of Val Wilder who was ranked as high as 104 in the world in the 1980s, and in 2004 when he was 45 he won a national titles grandslam on all surfaces.

That's one ugly video clip, but there's no doubting in his age group he's an extremely good tournament player.

[hyogen]

incredible hitting.

that 2nd link of the sick dropshot was....sick :X

Here is another incredible video that was on the Related Videos page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2rjvE4VpOI&feature=related

O_O

I think with practice and playing like I have been and hitting with ball machine, getting some coaching, etc I could become a 4.5 with not too much difficulty. However, the way these guys are hitting the ball...I think I could only get like this if I devoted most every day to playing tennis at least for a few hours. I definitely think easily 5.0+++

[hyogen]

no offense but those guys in those videos are garbage and im a 5.0 player and they would make me look like a 20.0 player *sarcasm* but still they would make me look really really good. lol

i kinda agree here. not so much the first couple vids, but the 3rd... man...he just looks BAD.

but I agree with what you're saying, drakulie--looks (videos) can be deceiving.

and I agree with you that those 2 guys from the OP are CONVINCINGLY 5.0+

[firstservethenvolley]

Here are two former pros. Both are currently 5.5+.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W2pW0ANGH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldYLo60taO4


Here is a former pro, who is currently a 6.0 +


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZgQ2lbCpO0


None of these guys are ripping the ball 80-90 mph like you stated. So there! You are wrong.

The guys in the vids of this thread are definitely 5.0+ players. CONVINCINGLY!

Isn't the third guy, no 1 ranked over 45 player in the US or something ?

[NamRanger]

exactly, well put. Maybe they were that level at an earlier stage in their life but they seemed to of lost it. Really just look at the videos the one dude couldnt even return a back hand slice that was going 5 mph...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiW3MzTy8Pc


That shows you how good they really are. That's match play.

[hyogen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiW3MzTy8Pc


That shows you how good they really are. That's match play.

is that the same 3rd guy though? that near court guy is drakulie i believe.


and was that last shot a crosscourt winner when the other guy comes to net? :o i can't tell

[mucat]

Holy batman, those guys look like 5.0-5.5 to me, the lefty guy looks 5.5.

[WBF]

NamRanger, did you not see the second video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjlClQi62Kc)? I know it's only one point but you can see several things...

1.) The lefty can block back good serves with minimal effort (see first serve beeing volleyed back to server)
2.) He returns a decent wide second serve deep cross court to the servers backhand.
3.) When he sees his return being hit weakly, he immediately moves forward, and hits an approach shot that I would consider difficult (to me) deep to the backhand again.
4.) He follows up with a sexy drop volley curving away from the guy at the back right of the court.

I realize this is just one point, but it demonstrates that this guy can construct points quite successfully, that he would probably do quite well in return games, and that he is *probably* quite comfortable at the net, given his effortless ability to approach.

[my_forehand]

5.0 for the guy in blue, and 4.5 for guy in red. The guy in blue seems like kind of a tool, to me. Poor etiquette: he keeps staring at other courts, smacking winners, etc. That's just a personal thing with me: I can't stand when I hit with someone and they hit winners or hit the crap out of the ball when it's a 70% rally (as in 70% of max pace). He knows he's better than the guy in red, and takes advantage of that. And the guy in blue is obviously trying to get the attention of someone on another court, as he keeps staring over there. If I were the guy in red, I would ask the guy in blue to just man up and go get her number. :mrgreen:

LOL, maybe it's his mom.

[TNT16]

Without a question, both guys are well over 3.0.

Are you sure about that? LOL!!!

[morten]

One's mental game *rarely* makes even a level of difference. The chances that this guy suffers a poor mental game that takes him down a whole level are not worth considering. Based on what we KNOW, he has the game of *at least* a 5.0 player. He has solid forehands, very solid backhands, can play deep balls, short balls, even an outball, has no problem blocking back a big first serve, and constructing an excellent point that finishes with a sweet drop volley. From what we *know* I would say 5.0 and up. If you could extrapolate his ability to hit well and use specialty shots like the drop volley (as opposed to that just being a lucky shot) against better players, and that the rest of his game (volleys, serves) are similar in quality, I would imagine he is a 5.5 or even higher level player.

Does anyone know who this is or info on actual results? I'm quite curious.

It is not just the mental aspect i am talking about in a match situation, you can`t see that here. I mean the whole thing constructing a point, court sense and very important how they can play on the defense. Many times have i played guys in tournaments where they blast away like this in the warm up, looking much better than me, and i end up beating them 6-1 6-2 .... ;)

[JamaicanYoute]

Rubbish...

The majority of human existence comprises induction from limited information. "Is that lion dangerous?" "I don't know. I'd have to see it bite someone". Get with the program.

LOL - By far one of the funniest things I've read in a while. I could picture this coming from H.Laurie from 'House'.

[hyogen]

It is not just the mental aspect i am talking about in a match situation, you can`t see that here. I mean the whole thing constructing a point, court sense and very important how they can play on the defense. Many times have i played guys in tournaments where they blast away like this in the warm up, looking much better than me, and i end up beating them 6-1 6-2 .... ;)

can we see a video of you? :)

[CAM178]

Here is another incredible video that was on the Related Videos page:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2rjvE4VpOI&feature=related
O_O
LOL. . . was wondering who was going to be 1st to post that link. I was mesmerized by that, too. Almost felt like hypnosis, except in hypnosis I wouldn't be waiting for 'the watch to fall out of the case', so to speak. :mrgreen:

[johnny ballgame]

but there's no doubting in his age group he's an extremely good tournament player.

Understand, but that doesn't mean he would necessarily beat your typical 25 year-old 5.0 player.

[WBF]

Understand, but that doesn't mean he would necessarily beat your typical 25 year-old 5.0 player.

Eh. I remember a fun little story from my freshman year of college... Our coach brought this chubby looking old dude to practice one day, and had our top player play him. Guess who won. There is certainly an age where singles may become difficult for older folks, but I doubt the folks in that video are there yet.

This guy (http://www.newengland.usta.com/awards/custom.sps?iType=1181&icustompageid=6518) look like he hurts with every step he takes, but despite any problems, he had no problem destroying people in the NE men's open singles section a few years back (I'm fairly sure he was #1). When I saw him (in doubles, I don't get out to NE often) last year he made some of the D1 and former D1 players look silly on the court.

These players might not want to play younger players all the time due to wear and tear on their bodies, but they would absolutely tool some of the top college players around, let alone a measly 5.0, up until a certain age.

[mucat]

LOL. . . was wondering who was going to be 1st to post that link. I was mesmerized by that, too. Almost felt like hypnosis, except in hypnosis I wouldn't be waiting for 'the watch to fall out of the case', so to speak. :mrgreen:

Hitting groundstrokes while jumping is a good idea in this case.

[NamRanger]

NamRanger, did you not see the second video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjlClQi62Kc)? I know it's only one point but you can see several things...

1.) The lefty can block back good serves with minimal effort (see first serve beeing volleyed back to server)
2.) He returns a decent wide second serve deep cross court to the servers backhand.
3.) When he sees his return being hit weakly, he immediately moves forward, and hits an approach shot that I would consider difficult (to me) deep to the backhand again.
4.) He follows up with a sexy drop volley curving away from the guy at the back right of the court.

I realize this is just one point, but it demonstrates that this guy can construct points quite successfully, that he would probably do quite well in return games, and that he is *probably* quite comfortable at the net, given his effortless ability to approach.


True, no doubt he is good, but we still haven't seen extensive footage of him. It could be that he's playing a weaker opponent, who knows. I'm just saying, the most accurate way to tell how good he is, is to watch him play a match in real life, against a competitive opponent, that or see if he has results in Open Level Tournaments. You can get a decent idea of what someone can do from a small amount of footage, but you can't tell everything.

[johnny ballgame]

These players might not want to play younger players all the time due to wear and tear on their bodies, but they would absolutely tool some of the top college players around, let alone a measly 5.0, up until a certain age.

Understand that as well.

That guy is north of 45 playing on the soft clay. I don't think he wins a hard court tournament playing back-to-back days (or twice in the same day) against 5.0's in their twenties.

[drakulie]

no offense but those guys in those videos are garbage and im a 5.0 player and they would make me look like a 20.0 player *sarcasm* but still they would make me look really really good. lol

No offense, but both guys in those videos will absolutely destroy you. One is Pablo Arraya (rated as higs as 24 on the ATP), and the other is Val Wilder.

Val a few years ago won the grand slam in his age group, and has also won slams in the 30's and 35's. This last year he won 3 of the 4 (hard, indoor, and clay).

Yeah, I wont call them "garbage" but at the same time I have major difficulties seeing those players in the videos drakulie posted as "current" 5.5 and 6 players.

The guys in the vid I posted were absolutely smoking 5.0+ players in this tournament. The matches weren't even close. I could also tell you this, these guys were cracking serves well over 120, and blasting groundies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiW3MzTy8Pc


That shows you how good they really are. That's match play.

And neither of these guys could really compete with the guys in the first vids I provided. No contest.

[hyogen]

No offense, but both guys in those videos will absolutely destroy you. One is Pablo Arraya (rated as higs as 24 on the ATP), and the other is Val Wilder.

Val a few years ago won the grand slam in his age group, and has also won slams in the 30's and 35's. This last year he won 3 of the 4 (hard, indoor, and clay).



The guys in the vid I posted were absolutely smoking 5.0+ players in this tournament. The matches weren't even close. I could also tell you this, these guys were cracking serves well over 120, and blasting groundies.




And neither of these guys could really compete with the guys in the first vids I provided. No contest.

in the matchplay video, isn't the guy in the foreground you drakulie? u might have already answered this.

so you're saying the 2 ppl in the OP couldn't compete with your older guys in your vids? Hmmm i see :o

I"d like to see more vids of your old guys who are so good.

[drakulie]

in the matchplay video, isn't the guy in the foreground you drakulie? u might have already answered this.

No, neither one of those guys are me. Both are 5.0+ NTRP rated players. I hit with the guy closer to the camera to warm him up.

so you're saying the 2 ppl in the OP couldn't compete with your older guys in your vids? Hmmm i see :o

No, I was responding to NamRanger. He stated the guys you are referring to are better than the guys in the first vids **I** posted, where both players look horrible.

If you want to see more vids from the 45 nationals, just go on to my page. I have a bunch of short vid clips there.

[Mike Cottrill]

in the matchplay video, isn't the guy in the foreground you drakulie? u might have already answered this.

so you're saying the 2 ppl in the OP couldn't compete with your older guys in your vids? Hmmm i see :o

I"d like to see more vids of your old guys who are so good.

If you are not a 6.0, Val will spank you silly.

[drakulie]

^^yup. He has some serious game. One hell of a serve, and a huge kicker. He also is solid on the ground, and when he is coming to net you are in trouble.

[Mike Cottrill]

^^yup. He has some serious game. One hell of a serve, and a huge kicker. He also is solid on the ground, and when he is coming to net you are in trouble.

That @#$$ American Twist out on the Ad side will run you into the fence on most courts. He can thank Edberg for that one.

[johnny ballgame]

The guys in the vid I posted were absolutely smoking 5.0+ players in this tournament. The matches weren't even close. I could also tell you this, these guys were cracking serves well over 120, and blasting groundies.


Against a bunch of dudes on the wrong side of 45. We simply can't say how they would fare against 5.0's that were 23 and could run all day.

[Mike Cottrill]

Against a bunch of dudes on the wrong side of 45. We simply can't say how they would fare against 5.0's that were 23 and could run all day.

Sounds like the words of the young. 20-30-40 5.0.. Val will have you gasping for air in the first set. Trust me I know and seen it. Very smart player,, knows were you are going to hit the ball before you hit it.

[drakulie]

Against a bunch of dudes on the wrong side of 45. We simply can't say how they would fare against 5.0's that were 23 and could run all day.

Uhmmm, I don't think so. These guys could seriously move, and as former pro players, know how to move thier feet better than lowly 5.0s'. They have all the shots, are more consistent, and patient.

I saw an "old fart" about two years ago (50+ years of age), take out a top 5 ranked 5.0 in Florida. 6-0, 6-0. Oh yeah>>> he was a former ATP Pro.

[Moz]

Against a bunch of dudes on the wrong side of 45. We simply can't say how they would fare against 5.0's that were 23 and could run all day.

I used to think that aswell. Unfortunately experience has taught me that age does not cause that much game degredation until people are really old. These people that played at a very high level are maybe 90% of the player they used to be. The thing is that 10% they are missing is not a 10% that a 5.0 could exploit.

I would almost feel sorry for an ambitious, young 5.0 stepping on court against one of these guys (e.g. Val). The 5.0 is going to really fancy his chances in the paddock and in the warm-up. 12 - 14 games later he is going to walk off the court wondering what the hell happened. He's going to want to give up having been given a lesson in his own mortality.

I've been there before. It's not fair, but then tennis isn't meant to be. Ask me what the real difference is and I couldn't tell you but it feels like you're drowning but you can see the bottom of the pool.

[hyogen]

did you guys notice in his comments on the youtube vids he said he was using a 390gram liquid metal radical? :O

[TonLars]

I hate to get in on this but Im going to have to disagree a bit with some of the comments about the 45's national players. I do agree with some of it as well though. However, theres definitely some exaggerations being made.

Now I agree and have seen the best national 45+ year olds beat solid 5.0 players, sometimes even somewhat easily. But these players at this age are definitely not 6.0 players. These players simply have lost alot physically from 10-20 years ago in most cases. Now while they can certainly compete and sometimes win against a good younger high level college player because of their ability and mental toughness, they arent going to make one look silly as if they are still at that professional level that they were decades ago.

To share what I mean, Ive played against a player who was recently ranked in the top 10 or better in the national 35's, and he was on the international 35's Davis Cup apparently as well. I had very close matches with him both times we played. I simply disagree and I dont believe any "actual" and current 5.5+ players, any age, would get "destroyed" by the 45's. I believe if I was to play a guy like Val now, it would be a relatively good match and I would learn alot, and ill also say I would feel confident about my chances of winning. And at the same time he is a much better tennis player than me and accomplished much more than I ever have. Just cant build these guys up too much so as to say they can make good young college players look silly, unless they really just arent that good.

[drakulie]

TonLars, I saw Harold Solomon who is 55+ years of age push a current top 300 ATP pro to a 7-5 set. So lets not even talk about 5.0s anymore.

The guys in the first video I posted, who are younger than Harold will absolutely smoke 5.0 players. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Additionally, like I said, I saw an ex ATP Pro from the 70's beat a top 5 ranked 5.0 player in Florida 6-0, 6-0.

[TonLars]

TonLars, I saw Harold Solomon who is 55+ years of age push a current top 300 ATP pro to a 7-5 set. So lets not even talk about 5.0s anymore.

The guys in the first video I posted, who are younger than Harold will absolutely smoke 5.0 players. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Additionally, like I said, I saw an ex ATP Pro from the 70's beat a top 5 ranked 5.0 player in Florida 6-0, 6-0.

Sure Ill buy that, Solomon is apparently a former top 5 in the world and runner up at the French. What im saying is that he could certainly compete with players at that level, and at the same time Ill take the 5.5-6.0 95% of the sets though. Id expect the elder top player to get alot of games consistently, again a personal example ive played a top 55's player couple times and one time he got quite a few games.

Smoke many 5.0 players, but i wouldnt say "smoke" all. 5.0 is a broad range. For the most part i buy that too though. Some high 5.0's would hold their own a bit. But once you get up to the true 5.5 or even 6.0 level, i think it would be good tennis but ill take a 5.5 player over nearly all 45's with confidence. Especially if they are young and strong; thats a big advantage to have to be able to run faster and quicker, and usually have more power also. Makes for some interesting and close matches in the battle of young vs old. I would rate these top 45's at the 5.5 level, but 6 is an exaggeration I say. I just have to go with my personal experience regarding this subject because I am about a 5.5 player and I am pretty evenly matched with one of the better 35's players. He has a slight edge on me though thus far.

[drakulie]

Again, if Solomon, who is 55 could hold his own against a "current" Pro in the 300's, how could you seriously sit there and say, a 5.0 will give him any trouble?? Please.

I suppose this same 5.0 could compete with McEnroe who still gives current top 20 pros fits. While we're at it, I'm sure there is at least one 5.0 who could take a set off Sampras since he is an old fart.

5.0's are a dime a dozen in terms of the tennis community. People make 5.0's out to be god-like. And, although in terms of recreational tennis they are>>> they ain't diddly when compared to former pros.

[TonLars]

Again, if Solomon, who is 55 could hold his own against a "current" Pro in the 300's, how could you seriously sit there and say, a 5.0 will give him any trouble?? Please.

I suppose this same 5.0 could compete with McEnroe who still gives current top 20 pros fits. While we're at it, I'm sure there is at least one 5.0 who could take a set off Sampras since he is an old fart.

5.0's are a dime a dozen in terms of the tennis community. People make 5.0's out to be god-like. And, although in terms of recreational tennis they are>>> they ain't diddly when compared to former pros.

I meant 5.0 against a good 45's player, not a guy like Val or Solomon. Sorry didnt make that clear, lol! But your comment about "smoking" was in reference to those 45's in your video clips. With that in mind, hopefully you understand everything I previously stated.

And obviously not Sampras or McEnroe, they obviously could handle even the 5.5-6.0 player. To compare them with 5.0 is obnoxious. 45's USTA however is comparable, and as I said the very top could be called a current 5.5, but not a 6

[CAM178]

TonLars, who was the top 35's player you played against?

Just for reference, I spanked the guy ranked #7 in the country not but a few years back. I'm trying to determine if the guy you played is a legit player. No offense, but I've heard that jackass who's ranked #7 use that very line: 'I'm ranked #7 in the country.' Last time I heard him say it, I started laughing out loud. Again, no offense to you. More so, I know the names of the top 35's players, and I'm just wondering who you played against.

[TonLars]

TonLars, who was the top 35's player you played against?

Just for reference, I spanked the guy ranked #7 in the country not but a few years back. I'm trying to determine if the guy you played is a legit player. No offense, but I've heard that jackass who's ranked #7 use that very line: 'I'm ranked #7 in the country.' Last time I heard him say it, I started laughing out loud. Again, no offense to you. More so, I know the names of the top 35's players, and I'm just wondering who you played against.

Mickey Maule
http://www.northern.usta.com/adultsseniors/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=147620&itype=1363&icategoryid=265
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=43399&E=1
I doubt thats who you played, if you spanked him you are probably amazing. As you can see from the 2nd link he beat Butorac, who is ranked top 30 or so in the world currently for doubles.

[WBF]

I'd venture to say that my level could be close to a 5.0.

My father is in his fifties.

He moves better than I do on the court, and I have yet to beat him more than 5 times out of all the times we have played... nearly every day until college. nearly every day during the summer. nowadays every day whenever we go on vacations much to my fiancee's chagrin :P

Oh, and he's not even to the point where he needs to rely on touch more than power. He either serve and volleys, or pushes me into an error with steady, deep groundstrokes. He gets to balls that college players don't get to (obnoxious. very obnoxious).

He usually gets a bunch of matches in when he plays in the USTA national age group singles tournaments, but he's not among the top players in them. I would guess that there are a good number of American's 45 or over who could dominate more youthful 5.0 players...

[CAM178]

Mickey Maule
I doubt thats who you played, if you spanked him you are probably amazing
LOL. . .then no, that's not who I played. The guy I played is a very, very poor sport. Too much to go into here, so I'll keep this on topic.

[drakulie]

Tonlars, thanks for the explanation. For a second there I thought you had maybe hit one too many tennis balls. LOL just kidding.

I've seen your vids, and instantly knew you were a very serious baller. I also knew you were going to get a ton of hate too. Being that I have taken so many vids of very good players, I know what the video doesn't "tell" if you know what I mean. Truth of the matter is>> strokes and the result of the strokes just don't translate very well to video.

[CAM178]

Here's my 2 cents: I agree with several people on here about older players still being able to ball. Perfect example: Johan Kriek played the #1 ranked guy in NE a few years back. Just a practice set. Everyone was really into watching this (I wasn't there), as the top NE guy can really ball. Kriek beat him 6-2 in 20 minutes, and they said Kriek wasn't even trying.

To me, it's the mental aspect for the tour players. They've BEEN there, and they KNOW they can win. They can hit crazy shots, and they have levels of competitiveness. Perfect example is Wilder: in his videos, you can almost always see him yell 'COME OWN!' (he's from Texas, so he has a twang on the word 'on').

My lesson like this came when I was 14, and a solid junior player. While on vacation, this old guy (60's) asks me to play. I looked at my father as if to say 'Umm, is this a good idea? Won't his ticker give out?' And my father said yeah, play him. That damn guy beat me 7-5, and he barely tried. That was a huge lesson for me. Sure I could outstroke him, but every time his racquet touched the ball, he put me out of position, or hit a shot that I wasn't expecting. Beautiful point construction.

[TonLars]

Drak: Thanks for the comments. And yeah I do have to agree and admit what you are saying about video so we can agree on that.

Cam and Drak: While getting those links I posted I happened to see an interesting name of a player I played last year. He lives in Florida, apparently is currently ranked #1 USTA 40's. Name is Richard. Whats your take on him Drak, just curious? Cam, is this the guy youre talking about? Odds are he isnt but we had some issues during our match on line calls, on a clay court no less.

[CAM178]

Drak: Thanks for the comments. And yeah I do have to agree and admit what you are saying about video so we can agree on that.
Cam and Drak: While getting those links I posted I happened to see an interesting name of a player I played last year. He lives in Florida, apparently is currently ranked #1 USTA 40's. Name is Richard. Whats your take on him Drak, just curious? Cam, is this the guy youre talking about? Odds are he isnt but we had some issues during our match on line calls, on a clay court no less.
LOL. . .I don't know a guy named Richard, but I know of a top guy in 35's who is known very well for rooking people on calls. The guy I'm thinking of is from CA, though. . . and I see he's ranked in the 40's, too. . . . just a few below Richard. :mrgreen:

[Mike Cottrill]

I meant 5.0 against a good 45's player, not a guy like Val or Solomon. Sorry didnt make that clear, lol! But your comment about "smoking" was in reference to those 45's in your video clips. With that in mind, hopefully you understand everything I previously stated.

And obviously not Sampras or McEnroe, they obviously could handle even the 5.5-6.0 player. To compare them with 5.0 is obnoxious. 45's USTA however is comparable, and as I said the very top could be called a current 5.5, but not a 6

Tony, you have to compare the guys who win the nationals to understand what we are saying. The top two or three are the formal ATP caliber. A 100 in world player when in their 20's can still hold their own in the 40's. I personally talked to Val about a young guy who he lost to in an open tournament once and he told me if the guy stayed healthy, he was a top 100 player in the world not doubt. He lost a close match but the guy had a few more weapons than Val. Val was in his early 40's at the time. When Val plays opens (major zones) he goes in and takes out the #1 6-0, 6-1 and the #2 6-2, 6-2 type of results. He would be surprise at the seed they would place him at lol. Remember some of those in the top 15 of the age groups are there only because of the number of tournament they play not by their results.

BTW, I like your demeanor with tennis. If you get the chance to hit with Val or Winitsky you will have a great time. Also, you will be amazed how they keep the ball out of your power zone,

[CantBeBeat2]

TonLars where can i see videos of you playing.

[CAM178]

Remember some of those in the top 15 of the age groups are there only because of the number of tournament they play not by their results
Thusly why I call it a paper ranking. They damn sure didn't earn it. They bought the ranking, i.e. a 'paper ranking'. Plus it's only on paper. I guarantee you that one of the lower ranked players could smoke some of the higher ranked guys. The lower ranked guys just didn't play enough.

[TonLars]

Tony, you have to compare the guys who win the nationals to understand what we are saying.

When Val plays opens (major zones) he goes in and takes out the #1 6-0, 6-1 and the #2 6-2, 6-2 type of results. He would be surprise at the seed they would place him at lol. .

Yeah, I mean Val is an exception to what Im talking about, considering he isnt just a #1 but is dominating the age group winning 3 of the 4 big tournaments. Im talking about just the top 45's in general.

I maybe am underrating Val in my earlier posts. Those are pretty convinving stories and results I suppose. I would love to see him play I guess; I cant imagine the guy I saw in that video being a 6.0 level player. If he actually is beating these young and current top players and pros, why isnt he still playing 40's, 35's or even simply Opens? From the sounds of what you guys say, theres no reason he shouldnt be ranked at the very top in 35's even.

[TonLars]

TonLars where can i see videos of you playing.

Dont even watch them lol, theyre back from 2004ish and I was probably a strong 5.0 at the time rather than a 5.5 level that ive improved to. Lots of people flamed not understanding that. Anyways if you want I posted them in the Odds and Ends.

[CAM178]

From the sounds of what you guys say, theres no reason he shouldnt be ranked at the very top in 35's even.
LOL. . . . there is a very simple reason, and it's only 4 little letters: O r e n. Oren Motevassel is destroying most everybody right now. I don't think Val would stand a chance against him.

Oren's 35's record:
http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=411402&p=899

Oren's 40's record:
http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=411401&p=771

Look at Oren's score over the #1 in 40's. And look at plenty of other scores. The only guys in age divisions who have given him trouble are two guys from FL: Gomez-Diaz, and Lake. But he handled them in the tournament below:

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=411403&p=360

[drakulie]

^^^ I witnessed both matches.

I really, really wish I would have taken vids of Oren playing Lake.

I swear people here would be saying he is a 2.0 player. LOL

Oren was just pancaking the ball on the serve. If it was going 50 mph it was too much. LOL He was driving Lake crazy.

As for Gomez-Diaz (39 years of age), I hit with him from time to time. he is the pro where I live, and is one hell of a player. I believe he is # 1 in florida in the 30's. Also, he got a wildcard entry into the Sunrise tennis championships this year. I believe Karlovic, and Monfils played that tourney last year.

[drakulie]

Regarding Val>>> if memory serves, I believe he won a few 35 slams not too long ago, and even a 30's.

[Mike Cottrill]

Regarding Val>>> if memory serves, I believe he won a few 35 slams not too long ago, and even a 30's.

I believe that is correct (not sure about slams in 30's). I believe he also held the #1 in two age groups as well at the same time.

[CantBeBeat2]

Dont even watch them lol, theyre back from 2004ish and I was probably a strong 5.0 at the time rather than a 5.5 level that ive improved to. Lots of people flamed not understanding that. Anyways if you want I posted them in the Odds and Ends.

can you send me a link i just want to get an idea of your play style and such. Im a solid 5.0 player right now and just want to see the type of strokes you have, etc.

[CAM178]

I really, really wish I would have taken vids of Oren playing Lake. I swear people here would be saying he is a 2.0 player. LOL.
I wish you had, too. I'd love to see this guy play. I keep seeing his name winning tourneys all over the country, from Opens to 40's. Someone on here said they hit with him for 10 minutes, and said that no matter where he hit the ball, and no matter how much he moved Oren, that Oren hit it back to the same exact spot on the court every time. This guy said he never moved once when he hit with Oren, whereas he made Oren move several times, unintentionally.

The one thing I keep hearing about Oren is his passing shot. Supposed to be sick. Is it?

[johnny ballgame]

Again, if Solomon, who is 55 could hold his own against a "current" Pro in the 300's, how could you seriously sit there and say, a 5.0 will give him any trouble?? Please.


You seem to be mistaking a practice set as a meaningful result. Don't.

[jasoncho92]

Playing in warm-ups vs playing in real match play when a true 5.0 player can rip a 80-90 mph forehand at will is a whole different story. All we can infer from is that he can hit solid strokes from a warm-up perspective. Sure, he can hit good groundstrokes in non-pressure situations. Everything changes when you are in a pressure situation. They hit with a decent amount of pace, but in no way shape or form are they anywhere near a D1 player.


I've seen the guys who play at Baylor, a top D1 school, in real life. The pace that they play at is much faster then these guys do. Alot faster. They would make the lefty guy look like a joke, probably handing him a bagel or two. Heck, they bagel guys from D1 schools let alone some guy off of YouTube.


And TonyLars you really couldn't tell his rating from videoes to be honest. You had to look up his ranking and results to really tell. So unless this guy has plays in Open Tournaments and actually has decent results, I'm not going to nudge him above 4.5 in my book. There's plenty of 5.0+ players with some really ugly looking groundstrokes, yet they win because of smart play and experience. When you get to D1 level, then you start seeing true professional level groundstrokes.


Alot of people on these boards just try and tell a player's level based on his groundstrokes in WARM-UPS. Do professional tennis players look amazing when they are warming up? Not really. There's a big difference in match-play and warm-up/training sessions. The best indicator of someone's level is to see their results in tournaments/league play. Not some ground stroke video.
I seriously laughed at this. If a 5.0 could rip 80-90 mph balls at will, he wouldnt be a 5.0. My tennis instructor used to be a 5.0 (age brought him down to 4.5) and he couldnt hit 80-90 mph shots. He couldnt serve past 100 mph either

[hyogen]

^^^ I witnessed both matches.

I really, really wish I would have taken vids of Oren playing Lake.

I swear people here would be saying he is a 2.0 player. LOL



why? does he just have really bad looking form?

[blackfrido]

exactly, well put. Maybe they were that level at an earlier stage in their life but they seemed to of lost it. Really just look at the videos the one dude couldnt even return a back hand slice that was going 5 mph...

buy FYI this is one of those guys;

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/playerprofiles/?playernumber=A035

[blackfrido]

Eh. I remember a fun little story from my freshman year of college... Our coach brought this chubby looking old dude to practice one day, and had our top player play him. Guess who won. There is certainly an age where singles may become difficult for older folks, but I doubt the folks in that video are there yet.

This guy (http://www.newengland.usta.com/awards/custom.sps?iType=1181&icustompageid=6518) look like he hurts with every step he takes, but despite any problems, he had no problem destroying people in the NE men's open singles section a few years back (I'm fairly sure he was #1). When I saw him (in doubles, I don't get out to NE often) last year he made some of the D1 and former D1 players look silly on the court.

These players might not want to play younger players all the time due to wear and tear on their bodies, but they would absolutely tool some of the top college players around, let alone a measly 5.0, up until a certain age.

1986 for this guy;
http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/players/playerprofiles/playeractivity.asp?query=Singles&year=1986&player=S018&selTournament=0&prevtrnnum=0

[blackfrido]

FYI this is one of those guys;

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/playerprofiles/?playernumber=A035

............................................

[drakulie]

Someone on here said they hit with him for 10 minutes, and said that no matter where he hit the ball, and no matter how much he moved Oren, that Oren hit it back to the same exact spot on the court every time. This guy said he never moved once when he hit with Oren, whereas he made Oren move several times, unintentionally.

The one thing I keep hearing about Oren is his passing shot. Supposed to be sick. Is it?


You just described him perfectly. The guy is a backboard, and just bores you to death. And yes, if you come in, it better be an awesome approach because he will pass you.

You seem to be mistaking a practice set as a meaningful result. Don't.

Unfortunately, the only one mistaking anything is you. I was there and witnessed it. I also see him nearly everyday playing against top juniors, and he is constantly pushing them around. And yes, these juniors are 5.0+ players.

why? does he just have really bad looking form?

Let's put it this way. The guy could flat out hit, and has unbelievable game. However, and more importantly, he is very patient. He doesn't care what his strokes look like. He cares about results. If this means moonballing everything (including patty caking his serve), he will do it. This is exactly what he did in the finals against Andy Lake. He literally would toss the ball up like a beginner, and push the serve in. The slower he hit his serve, the harder Lake tried to kill it, and no matter where Lake hit it, Oren was there to moonball it back deep. It was driving Lake absolutely crazy.

If I would have video taped that match, people would seriously think he hadnt been playing tennis very long. he literally looked like a beginner.

[johnny ballgame]

Unfortunately, the only one mistaking anything is you. I was there and witnessed it.

Under tournament pressure and intensity, Harold Solomon would be very lucky to do much better than eating bagels against #300 on the ATP tour.

[drakulie]

^^^^ Possibly. However, how do you explain Mcenroe taking current top 20 players to tiebreaks, losing 7-5, or even sometimes taking a set. Fact of the matter is, Solomon will bagel you and your "5.0" rating.

Go learn something.

[Jonny S&V]

^^^^ Possibly. However, how do you explain Mcenroe taking current top 20 players to tiebreaks, losing 7-5, or even sometimes taking a set. Fact of the matter is, Solomon will bagel you and your "5.0" rating.

Go learn something.

McEnroe was one of the greatest talents of all time, he played a light game (much like Federer does know) so his body doesn't take the shock that, say, Lendl, did). Solomon was a good player, but his talent level was NO WHERE near McEnroe's (although his work ethic was technically double JMac's).

[johnny ballgame]

Fact of the matter is, Solomon will bagel you and your "5.0" rating.


Never said I was 5.0.

[drakulie]

McEnroe was one of the greatest talents of all time, he played a light game (much like Federer does know) so his body doesn't take the shock that, say, Lendl, did).

Really? I wasn't aware of that. :roll:

My point is, these ex pros who have stayed in the game and stayed in shape could flat out hit, and 5.0's, whether they are 20 or 30 years old, cannot compete with them. Period. These guys are still playing at a very high level. Like I stated before, I saw Solomon lose to a current top 300 ATP pro 7-5. This is a current pro I'm talking about, so a 5.0 is no match.

[rosewall4ever]

ehh...not bad..

[Jonny S&V]

Really? I wasn't aware of that. :roll:

Then why did you take McEnroe into the equation in saying that he was taking top 20 guys deep into sets and/or taking sets from him?

Is Oren Motevassel a contender for one of the top 10 greatest of all time? How about Val Wilder? Or even Pablo Arraya or Harold Solomon?

[rosewall4ever]

na jks aside...he'd good

[drakulie]

Then why did you take McEnroe into the equation in saying that he was taking top 20 guys deep into sets and/or taking sets from him?

Because he is giving current pros problems when he plays them, so how the heck people would say a 5.0 could take them is ridiculous. Posters on this thread are making a big deal about age, and how these "old guys" can't compete with young 5.0's.

I'm simply pointing out to them that "old guys" who keep in shape could still hit, and move very well. As a result, if they are still able to compete with current pros, then they could squash young 5.0's.

Is Oren Motevassel a contender for one of the top 10 greatest of all time? How about Val Wilder? Or even Pablo Arraya or Harold Solomon?

Being that at one point they were ATP pros, and are still playing, they are much closer than a regular 5.0 joe don't you think??

Again, people on these boards (and I suppose this would include you) make 5.0's out to be god like and untouchabe, and although that may be the case at their local club where most members are in the 3.0-3.5 range, it sure as heck ain't the case when ex-pros get into the conversation. 5.0's ain't sh!t, when playing a former pro. There is no comparison, and no competition.

[Babb]

The guy in the background is not 4.5 to me. More like 4.0, maybe. I'm around the 4.0 level and I have better depth and consistency the he does...

[johnny ballgame]

Because he is giving current pros problems when he plays them, so how the heck people would say a 5.0 could take them is ridiculous. Posters on this thread are making a big deal about age, and how these "old guys" can't compete with young 5.0's.


You're lumping way too many 'old guys' into the same category. Could a young 5.0 hang with McEnroe? Uh, no. Could a young 5.0 beat half the field in a USTA Over 45 National Open? Uh, yes.

[WBF]

The guy in the background is not 4.5 to me. More like 4.0, maybe. I'm around the 4.0 level and I have better depth and consistency the he does...

This is like a 5.0 saying "hey! a lot of these pro's make unforced errors just as much as I do!"

You know why the guy in the background is making errors? Because the guy he is playing with is hitting nice shots. He is probably not a 4.0, but his opponent makes him look worse than he is.

[WBF]

You're lumping way too many 'old guys' into the same category. Could a young 5.0 hang with McEnroe? Uh, no. Could a young 5.0 beat half the field in a USTA Over 45 National Open? Uh, yes.

When were we ever discussing half the people that show up to an open tournament (open in both senses of the word)? We are discussing high level older players.

[Jonny S&V]

Because he is giving current pros problems when he plays them, so how the heck people would say a 5.0 could take them is ridiculous. Posters on this thread are making a big deal about age, and how these "old guys" can't compete with young 5.0's.

I'm simply pointing out to them that "old guys" who keep in shape could still hit, and move very well. As a result, if they are still able to compete with current pros, then they could squash young 5.0's.

5.0s can't take the likes of McEnroe, anyone on this board would agree to this. But comparing McEnroe in his 40s to Pablo Arraya/Val Wilder is just laughable. I still think that a 5.0 could take these 2 guys (not w/o trouble, but they still could beat them).

Being that at one point they were ATP pros, and are still playing, they are much closer than a regular 5.0 joe don't you think??

Again, people on these boards (and I suppose this would include you) make 5.0's out to be god like and untouchabe, and although that may be the case at their local club where most members are in the 3.0-3.5 range, it sure as heck ain't the case when ex-pros get into the conversation. 5.0's ain't sh!t, when playing a former pro. There is no comparison, and no competition.

5.0 is hardly god-like. I personally don't belong to a club so I don't know what level those guys play at, but I play higher level high school tennis (state winners are usually 4.5-5.5, and I personally am a self-rated 4.0). I have seen older pros like McEnroe play in person (saw him win the San Jose tourney with Bjorkman), I have seen a legitimate 5.0 player (winner of class 2 state last year), and that guy would never keep up with McEnroe. But my coach is in his mid 40s and has been the hitting partner for pros in the 80's (Argh! Can't remember her name, Stephanie something, seeded in the teens in the 85 or 86 Wimbledon ladies draw), and he is a legitimate 4.5 player (although, he doesn't play any tourneys, he doesn't like competition...), and he would've been a 6.0-6.5 back in the 80's. He wouldn't win against the said state champion, but he would drive him crazy.

[Jonny S&V]

^Gee, that was a great post to hit 1700 posts, wasn't it? :(

Can we get back to the subject and just rate these guys as we see it?

Maybe I should just put a poll up...

[rosenstar]

At first I found it very doubtful that this player (in the foreground) was a 5.0. I didn't think much of his forehand to be honest (and I still think it could be improved a bit) or his footwork. I watched it a few more times, and still didn't think much of it. Then I turn the volume on. I noticed the crispe "pop" that sounded everytime the ball hit the strings. This told me that he didn't hit too many off center balls.

Then I watched the part where they rallied cross court (1 min, 15 sec), and that was when I saw how good this player was. He seems solid, but, I don't think he's incredible. I'm a self-rated 4.5/5.0, and I think I could easily rally with him.

I have seen pros play, and they would easily beat him. I've seen Chris Groer (former #1 at vanderbelt, all american, top 300ish in the world) play, and Chris would easily beat him. I've played with the former #1 from University of Delaware (an above average D1 school) and I think he would have beaten the player pretty easily too (not a bagel, but probably win each set by a break or two). From what I've seen, I feel that I would have a competitive match with him (assuming his shots would play the same in a match as in this video.)

I do recognize that what I said above is a little of an unfair statement. A video can show you if someone can hit well, yes, but there are sooooo many things that are much more easily visible while playing. For example, how well can he handle a good slice to the forehand? A hgih looping ball to the backhand? How does he handle off pace balls? Does he play percentage tennis? Does he know when to change direction?

Again, I consider his skill level very similar to mine (at least from the baseline) and I self rated myself as a 4.5/5.0 using this website:
http://www.usta.com/leagues/custom.sps?iType=931&icustompageid=1655

[Noveson]

At first I found it very doubtful that this player (in the foreground) was a 5.0. I didn't think much of his forehand to be honest (and I still think it could be improved a bit) or his footwork. I watched it a few more times, and still didn't think much of it. Then I turn the volume on. I noticed the crispe "pop" that sounded everytime the ball hit the strings. This told me that he didn't hit too many off center balls.

Then I watched the part where they rallied cross court (1 min, 15 sec), and that was when I saw how good this player was. He seems solid, but, I don't think he's incredible. I'm a self-rated 4.5/5.0, and I think I could easily rally with him.

I have seen pros play, and they would easily beat him. I've seen Chris Groer (former #1 at vanderbelt, all american, top 300ish in the world) play, and Chris would easily beat him. I've played with the former #1 from University of Delaware (an above average D1 school) and I think he would have beaten the player pretty easily too (not a bagel, but probably win each set by a break or two). From what I've seen, I feel that I would have a competitive match with him (assuming his shots would play the same in a match as in this video.)

I do recognize that what I said above is a little of an unfair statement. A video can show you if someone can hit well, yes, but there are sooooo many things that are much more easily visible while playing. For example, how well can he handle a good slice to the forehand? A hgih looping ball to the backhand? How does he handle off pace balls? Does he play percentage tennis? Does he know when to change direction?

Again, I consider his skill level very similar to mine (at least from the baseline) and I self rated myself as a 4.5/5.0 using this website:
http://www.usta.com/leagues/custom.sps?iType=931&icustompageid=1655

Using that website anybody with decent athletic ability would think they were a 4.0 within a week or so.

EDIT: Not saying you are lying or anything, just saying that those guidelines are very easily misinterpreted. I would say I was a 5.0 if I had just read those guidelines, yet I know I'm definitely not there yet.

[Noveson]

I don't think the guy in red was any worse/better than the guy in the foreground. The video was obviously edited, and since it says 'me warming up' in the comments it was probably edited by the guy in blue. Notice there were no short rallies, and no rallies where the guy in red won.

[CAM178]

I still think that a 5.0 could take these 2 guys (not w/o trouble, but they still could beat them).
Now, I'm not saying this to start something, but I have to tell you this: everyone that shows up to play an open or age tournament who sees Val, Oren, or any of the top older players says the same thing: 'Sh**.' I can tell you for sure that video does not do these guys justice. If you think you know of a solid 5.0 player, how has said 5.0 player done in good open tournaments. 5.0 guys should get hammered in any good open tourney. When my game is on (which it sure as hell is not now, much to my chagrin), I was a 5.0, and got killed in the latter stages of tourneys. It's what I refer to as 'levels'. You might think you're good at you're club until you enter a real tourney and see some of the guys. And some of them might even look beatable. But don't kid yourself: at a moment's notice these guys can wick it up and make you feel absolutely stupid. All I say is: just show up at a tourney where Val or Oren is playing, and see how a 5.0 fares against them. They will look foolish. I'm here to say that age has NOTHING to do with it. Once a baller, always a baller.

At first I found it very doubtful that this player (in the foreground) was a 5.0. I didn't think much of his forehand to be honest (and I still think it could be improved a bit) or his footwork. I watched it a few more times, and still didn't think much of it. Then I turn the volume on. I noticed the crispe "pop" that sounded everytime the ball hit the strings. This told me that he didn't hit too many off center balls. Then I watched the part where they rallied cross court (1 min, 15 sec), and that was when I saw how good this player was. He seems solid, but, I don't think he's incredible. I'm a self-rated 4.5/5.0, and I think I could easily rally with him. I have seen pros play, and they would easily beat him. I've seen Chris Groer (former #1 at vanderbelt, all american, top 300ish in the world) play, and Chris would easily beat him. I've played with the former #1 from University of Delaware (an above average D1 school) and I think he would have beaten the player pretty easily too (not a bagel, but probably win each set by a break or two). From what I've seen, I feel that I would have a competitive match with him (assuming his shots would play the same in a match as in this video.) I do recognize that what I said above is a little of an unfair statement. A video can show you if someone can hit well, yes, but there are sooooo many things that are much more easily visible while playing. For example, how well can he handle a good slice to the forehand? A hgih looping ball to the backhand? How does he handle off pace balls? Does he play percentage tennis? Does he know when to change direction? Again, I consider his skill level very similar to mine (at least from the baseline) and I self rated myself as a 4.5/5.0 using this website:
http://www.usta.com/leagues/custom.sps?iType=931&icustompageid=1655
I love posts like this: 'I know so-and-so, and he would clown this guy.' Man, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard that, only to see said local god get CLOWNED by real players. Pardon me for being blunt, but 2 things tell me that you don't really know what you're talking about:
1. you say his FH didn't impress you. . . .ummm, the kid isn't even trying in the video. At all. He is screwing around competely, and he is still tooling the other guy at will.
2. the fact that you had to turn the volume up. . . .you should be able to look at somebody and be able to tell if they can play. Perfect example is at an indoor tourney. So you're saying you would have to go out behind the courts to listen to someone to see if they can really play? Visual is enough.

As to Groer beating this kid, uhhh. . . .yeah, I sure would hope so, if Groer was ranked 400 in the world. All we're saying is that the kid in the video is a 5.0, not ATP material. At no point did anybody make that claim. So why do you have to bring your local Paul Bunyan into the mix? Just to name-drop? That's bad.

[Noveson]

Now, I'm not saying this to start something, but I have to tell you this: everyone that shows up to play an open or age tournament who sees Val, Oren, or any of the top older players says the same thing: 'Sh**.' I can tell you for sure that video does not do these guys justice. If you think you know of a solid 5.0 player, how has said 5.0 player done in good open tournaments. 5.0 guys should get hammered in any good open tourney. When my game is on (which it sure as hell is not now, much to my chagrin), I was a 5.0, and got killed in the latter stages of tourneys. It's what I refer to as 'levels'. You might think you're good at you're club until you enter a real tourney and see some of the guys. And some of them might even look beatable. But don't kid yourself: at a moment's notice these guys can wick it up and make you feel absolutely stupid. All I say is: just show up at a tourney where Val or Oren is playing, and see how a 5.0 fares against them. They will look foolish. I'm here to say that age has NOTHING to do with it. Once a baller, always a baller.


I love posts like this: 'I know so-and-so, and he would clown this guy.' Man, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard that, only to see said local god get CLOWNED by real players. Pardon me for being blunt, but 2 things tell me that you don't really know what you're talking about:
1. you say his FH didn't impress you. . . .ummm, the kid isn't even trying in the video. At all. He is screwing around competely, and he is still tooling the other guy at will.
2. the fact that you had to turn the volume up. . . .you should be able to look at somebody and be able to tell if they can play. Perfect example is at an indoor tourney. So you're saying you would have to go out behind the courts to listen to someone to see if they can really play? Visual is enough.

As to Groer beating this kid, uhhh. . . .yeah, I sure would hope so, if Groer was ranked 400 in the world. All we're saying is that the kid in the video is a 5.0, not ATP material. At no point did anybody make that claim. So why do you have to bring your local Paul Bunyan into the mix? Just to name-drop? That's bad.

:lol: Cam, sometimes I just love reading your posts. What scares me most is at 20 secs where he just decides to rip that ball.

[TNT16]

did you guys notice in his comments on the youtube vids he said he was using a 390gram liquid metal radical? :O

Yes I did. And then I watched the clip again.

This guy makes it look like he is swinging a 10 oz racquet while he is apparently smacking the ball around with a 390g (13.75 oz) stick!!!

Damn!

[zapvor]

yea thats pretty heavy. i have to agree-the clip is probably edited in his favor. but his got video proof of the strokes. good stuff

[CAM178]

:lol: Cam, sometimes I just love reading your posts. What scares me most is at 20 secs where he just decides to rip that ball.
Thanks, man. I do what I can to carry my weight around here. :mrgreen:

The guy in the foreground is taken out of position time and time again, yet he keeps putting the ball back to the same place every time for the kid in red. And on the couple of balls where he actually tries to hit a winner, you can clearly see him pull back, yet still hit a clear winner. I bet this kid could rip it up. And look at his build: he's small, skinny, and fast. He's fast enough to run down most anything, and to boot, he's got that anvil of a 14 oz (!!) racquet to hit a good shot to get himself back into the point.

[NamRanger]

Thanks, man. I do what I can to carry my weight around here. :mrgreen:

The guy in the foreground is taken out of position time and time again, yet he keeps putting the ball back to the same place every time for the kid in red. And on the couple of balls where he actually tries to hit a winner, you can clearly see him pull back, yet still hit a clear winner. I bet this kid could rip it up. And look at his build: he's small, skinny, and fast. He's fast enough to run down most anything, and to boot, he's got that anvil of a 14 oz (!!) racquet to hit a good shot to get himself back into the point.


Now your just making him to look like some god. If he was as good as you said, he would be making deep runs at Open Tournaments or be at a pretty good D2/Lower Level D1 school. He could be a 5.0, or he could be lower. I highly doubt he's any higher then a 5.0 though.

[TonLars]

Now your just making him to look like some god. If he was as good as you said, he would be making deep runs at Open Tournaments or be at a pretty good D2/Lower Level D1 school. He could be a 5.0, or he could be lower. I highly doubt he's any higher then a 5.0 though.

For all we know, he is. Neither you nor I know what his succes is in match play. Based on this video alone we can probably guess a range of being as low as 4.5 or as high as 5.5, or 6 who knows. These videos show us little. After people watched my videos several people thought I was alot lower level than Im at.

[Thud and blunder]

At first I found it very doubtful that this player (in the foreground) was a 5.0. I didn't think much of his forehand to be honest (and I still think it could be improved a bit) or his footwork. I watched it a few more times, and still didn't think much of it. Then I turn the volume on. I noticed the crispe "pop" that sounded everytime the ball hit the strings. This told me that he didn't hit too many off center balls.

Then I watched the part where they rallied cross court (1 min, 15 sec), and that was when I saw how good this player was. He seems solid, but, I don't think he's incredible. I'm a self-rated 4.5/5.0, and I think I could easily rally with him.

I have seen pros play, and they would easily beat him. I've seen Chris Groer (former #1 at vanderbelt, all american, top 300ish in the world) play, and Chris would easily beat him. I've played with the former #1 from University of Delaware (an above average D1 school) and I think he would have beaten the player pretty easily too (not a bagel, but probably win each set by a break or two). From what I've seen, I feel that I would have a competitive match with him (assuming his shots would play the same in a match as in this video.)

I do recognize that what I said above is a little of an unfair statement. A video can show you if someone can hit well, yes, but there are sooooo many things that are much more easily visible while playing. For example, how well can he handle a good slice to the forehand? A hgih looping ball to the backhand? How does he handle off pace balls? Does he play percentage tennis? Does he know when to change direction?

Again, I consider his skill level very similar to mine (at least from the baseline) and I self rated myself as a 4.5/5.0 using this website:
http://www.usta.com/leagues/custom.sps?iType=931&icustompageid=1655

This post is idiotic on so many levels.
Firstly, sound only exists to give noobs the wrong impression. They get distracted by the crisp pop you get indoors, and draw the wrong conclusions.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a self-rated 5.0...sorry. If you aint a battle-hardened competitor, there's no way in hell you're a 5.0...forget it. The chances that you're a 4.5 are also vanishingly small, I would say.

Thirdly, he's hitting very relaxed...anyone can see that. Don't be misled by that. The key is that he's hitting very cleanly. He's effortlessy handling depth and returning these balls deep...that's one of the key tells which suggests to me that he's a very good player.

Fourthly, you've "seen pros play"...guess that puts you one up on the rest of us.. Further, it's your considered opinion that "they would easily beat him". No sh!t...there's an ocean of difference between pros and 5.0-5.5s, so I struggle to understand what your point could possibly be.

I know Cam has already dealt with most of these points, but in a thread with many stupid posts, this one reached such an apotheosis of idiocy that it surely deserved further comment.

[CAM178]

Now your just making him to look like some god. If he was as good as you said, he would be making deep runs at Open Tournaments or be at a pretty good D2/Lower Level D1 school. He could be a 5.0, or he could be lower. I highly doubt he's any higher then a 5.0 though.
Man, someone should measure your distance when you jump to conclusions.

A god? Wow. Don't know where you get that from, but whatever.

[CAM178]

I know Cam has already dealt with most of these points, but in a thread with many stupid posts, this one reached such an apotheosis of idiocy that it surely deserved further comment.
I did deal with it, but yours made me laugh out loud. :mrgreen:

[Rickson]

Man, someone should measure your distance when you jump to conclusions.

A god? Wow. Don't know where you get that from, but whatever.

Don't worry, CAM. That nawm guy doesn't eva know what he's talking about. BTW, I don't think he was eva a Viet nawm ranga.

[CAM178]

Don't worry, CAM. That nawm guy doesn't eva know what he's talking about.
Rickson, what's up, man?! Good to see you post.

Yeah, this Nam guy just seems to like to push peoples' buttons. Some people are like that in life, I guess. We have so many accomplished players in this thread stating that the guy in the vid is at least a 5.0, but Nam seems to know more than the majority of us. Go figure.

[Rickson]

Rickson, what's up, man?! Good to see you post.

Yeah, this Nam guy just seems to like to push peoples' buttons. Some people are like that in life, I guess. We have so many accomplished players in this thread stating that the guy in the vid is at least a 5.0, but Nam seems to know more than the majority of us. Go figure.

Maybe you could slap the old rear naked on him!

[itsstephenyo]

If you go back and watch the video, the poster recently responded to some comments on his Youtube wall. Apparently, he's a Futures player.

[CAM178]

Maybe you could slap the old rear naked on him!
LOL! 99% of the people on here will think this is a gay reference, but we both know it just means nighty-night. Believe it or not, I actually did that in a bar fight once. Had no choice, and if that behemoth had gotten out of the RNC, he would have prison-raped me. Biggest dude I ever fought. But they all are like little babies at nap time with the RNC. Love that hold. :)

[CAM178]

If you go back and watch the video, the poster recently responded to some comments on his Youtube wall. Apparently, he's a Futures player.
Nam, I hope you have a glass of Coke to wash down your words. Told you this kid could ball.

[hyogen]

what does it mean to be a futures player?

so what level is he then? like 6? :o :O
what does it mean also to be a full tike tennis player


Here is his post:

"i am a full tike tennis player, i play futures. i would have loved to have gone to the states and played in college, but i never got round to it and now i am too old as there is some rule about being out of education etc."

[drakulie]

But comparing McEnroe in his 40s to Pablo Arraya/Val Wilder is just laughable. I still think that a 5.0 could take these 2 guys (not w/o trouble, but they still could beat them).

When did I ever compare Mcenroe to Arraya or Wilder??

And you're seriously dreaming if you think a regular 5.0 joe could beat either one of them. Again, I saw Solomon take a current top 300 pro to a 7-5 set. A 5.0 is no where near the level of a current top 300 pro. Go learn something in highschool.

[TonLars]

what does it mean to be a futures player?

so what level is he then? like 6? :o :O
what does it mean also to be a full tike tennis player


Here is his post:

"i am a full tike tennis player, i play futures. i would have loved to have gone to the states and played in college, but i never got round to it and now i am too old as there is some rule about being out of education etc."

His comment was a typo. Im sure what he meant was full 'time' tennis player. So again, assuming he's not lying, this is not surprising as from the video we could tell he could hit the ball very well. As a futures player, that is a good range of players, just as an NTRP level is. I have myself played in a couple Futures events, but not as many because: they are a long ways to travel to, the field is very tough, there is no money to be won unless you get in the final rounds of the main draw, and I am currently recovering from a serious injury. To be completely frank, these qualifying tournaments are open to anyone, but only so many spots are reserved in the draw. Therefore you can see a local 3.5 in the tournament. But, the majority are high level players. In the USA, youll see most of them being current or graduated high level college players. Then youll see those that travel in from other countries and are trying to do as well as they can and play quite a few futures in several countries. The majority are in the 5.5 to 6.0 range if you want to put a rating on them. As has been discussed in other threads, the ratings really arent used or of importance after the 5.0 mark. After that, players are very serious and so tournament results and rankings are what its all about.

In case you didnt know, I can inform you that Futures are the lowest level of the professional circuit. So the qualifying is for the main draw of the event. If players do well enough at this level, they can get into the next tier, which are called "Challengers". And then the highest which is after that are the ATP level tournaments.

I dont think we know the name of the guy in this video, so its hard to say how well he does at the Futures level; whether he is regularly qualifying or getting into the main draws. But if he is playing alot of them he is no doubt a serious player with some ability.

[Richie Rich]

When did I ever compare Mcenroe to Arraya or Wilder??

And you're seriously dreaming if you think a regular 5.0 joe could beat either one of them. Again, I saw Solomon take a current top 300 pro to a 7-5 set. A 5.0 is no where near the level of a current top 300 pro. Go learn something in highschool.

i agree. we have d1 players who go to strong tennis schools (men and women) who play at our club when they are back in town and they call us 5.0's up to hit/practice. let me tell you - they wipe the court with us.

http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/playerprofiles/?playersearch=pokrajac

i've played this guy in inter-county doubles matches 3/4 years ago. we were lucky to win a couple games. and this was before he was ranked.

[NamRanger]

Don't worry, CAM. That nawm guy doesn't eva know what he's talking about. BTW, I don't think he was eva a Viet nawm ranga.


Sorry that I called you out on your hypocritical ignorance in a previous thread?


What's that again? Not switching racquet faces is incorrect technique?


I also do recall someone saying split steps are overrated also.

[Rickson]

What's the matter? Don't like my Boston accent?

[J011yroger]

Why is it so hard for people to give credit?

Do they think that saying someone else is good or of a high level makes it look like they are lower level?

What is wrong with saying someone is a great player and giving credit.

When someone puts in the amount of time and effort on and off court that it takes to build a game like that how can another who is just a recreational player have the unmitigated gall to put themselves in the same category as the player.

If one truely believes guys like this are less than 5.5-6.0 players then they seriously need to spend some time reviewing video footage of various NTRP levels as well as themself.

Let me say this in the hopes of taking some pressure off our underraters.

You can say someone else is good, you can say they are of a high level, and it will not make you look like a lesser person.

Heck, I think everyone is good, I don't think everyone is 5.5, but the only tennis player you will find me saying bad stuff about is myself. Does that mean that I don't compete at a high level? No, it doesn't take away from me at all.

Once I would like to see one of these threads where a vid is posted, and everyone says "Oh wow that guy is awesome 5.5+ for sure." and it turns out that he is really a 3.5.

I don't care if it is Andy Roddick or some unnamed futures player in a video on youtube, these guys break their asses on and off court, and they deserve some credit for that.

That is what being a tennis player is, credibility, it says something about you. Players may have a lousy attitude sometime, but if you have a 20 something year old guy who is bustin his tail on the practice courts, and in the gym, eating right and staying fit instead of sitting on the couch eating ice cream and watching American Idol, and getting enough sleep instead of going out and getting hammered friday night, then that says something, and they deserve respect. You don't have to like them, but you do have to respect them.

J

[Richie Rich]

^^^ bang on. it's the internet. cajones get really big when people don't have to show their face. the critics are all pro's and can take out the 100th ranked woman on the wta

[WBF]

j0lly, after watching threads like these for a long time, I've come to a conclusion that the majority (there are certainly exceptions) of players are limited by their own ratings. The worse a player is, the harder it is for them to recognize the components of a solid higher level game. For instance, I have a hard time specifying anything above the 5.0 or so level, so I typically indicate that I am unsure, while other people are more conservative and simply assume the worst. The vast majority of the time, people who play at high levels on these boards, or those who are involved closely with the game (coaches), are far more accurate.

[J011yroger]

j0lly, after watching threads like these for a long time, I've come to a conclusion that the majority (there are certainly exceptions) of players are limited by their own ratings. The worse a player is, the harder it is for them to recognize the components of a solid higher level game. For instance, I have a hard time specifying anything above the 5.0 or so level, so I typically indicate that I am unsure, while other people are more conservative and simply assume the worst. The vast majority of the time, people who play at high levels on these boards, or those who are involved closely with the game (coaches), are far more accurate.

Ya, I dig it, like that other thread with the guy who got passed off the slice approach. A 3.5 wouldn't have any comprehension of how wicked of a slice that is comming straight at you and how tough it is to create an angle off that ball. So it is tough to understand.

Maybe people who have not competed against it (And I have been the recipient of an asswhipping or seventeen) don't really understand what it is, and so create this imaginary version of high level play and when it doesn't match up to what they see in video they go into denial.

I seriously give up trying to rate borderline cases, unless it is really obvious like this one and the other one.

I have said repeatedly that I can't tell even in person how good someone is.

I have watched people hit, and thought they were solid 5.0-5.5 players, and then hit with them and just B-L-O-W-N them off the court, and seen others where I thought they were nothing special, and limped off the court with my tail between my legs.

So my formal outlook is that everyone is a good player in their own way, and I am improving.

J

[Richie Rich]

[QUOTE=J011yroger;2080030]I have watched people hit, and thought they were solid 5.0-5.5 players, and then hit with them and just B-L-O-W-N them off the court, and seen others where I thought they were nothing special, and limped off the court with my tail between my legs.
/QUOTE]

there again, quite true. best guy at our club for a few years had the game of a beginner. the results speak for themselves - 4 years champion and beat a couple d2 players on the way. you'd look at him and think he was a 3.0.

[tennispro11]

:lol: Cam, sometimes I just love reading your posts. What scares me most is at 20 secs where he just decides to rip that ball.

I agree. This kid has some serious skills. People on here are just so ignorant sometimes.

T

[CAM178]

and seen others where I thought they were nothing special, and limped off the court with my tail between my legs.
J
Yep. I can always tell pretty early on in warm-up how the match is going to go. The litmus test is when they come up for volleys. If they look like they could be reading the paper while volleying, I get worried. The scariest is the guy who just simply doesn't miss a ball in warm-up.

But yeah: it's the guys that come out there and are just keeping up with you. Then the second you raise your game, they raise theirs. When it sucks is when you're controlling a point. . . and I mean controlling it with ease, and the dude hits a sick winner in the blink of an eye. You just stop and think 'WTF? But I. . . he was. . . WTF?!' It's usually at that point in the match that I start wondering how bad traffic is going to be in 30 minutes on the way home.

[goober]

That guy looked pretty solid to me. He didn't miss any shots and he what appears to be effortless power which is usually a sign of a good player. Anybody who says he is 4.5 max based on that video is nuts.

BTW he says he has a 3.1 LTA rating which officially converts to 5.5 NTRP although I have heard some Brits say it is a strong 5.5 rating since a 3.2 also converts to 5.5. If you know who he is you can look up his official LTA rating.

[Moz]

Yes, it's a strong 5.5. The next level up (2.2) would be a 6.0.

Curious as to who he is now.

[Rickson]

Strong backhand.

[WBF]

Strong backhand.

Yeah, it's an interesting looking backhand, I like it :p

[kairosntx]

Too many posts to read the whole thread... sorry I tried.

Do we know who the players are yet?

[kairosntx]

I crushed a guy on Monday night that said he is a 4.0 and wins 75 percent of his matches. So that would put me at a high 4.0 or low 4.5. I know no one on the boards has seen me hit, but if I am a low 4.5 these two guys are solid 5.5's.

I had to get a USTA card for a league fall of '07 and had to self rate (I know the resentment toward self rating) since I last had a USTA card in 1985. Based on the long layoff I started at 3.5 but I will be playing in a 4.0/4.5 league starting March 3.

[TNT16]

That guy looked pretty solid to me. He didn't miss any shots and he what appears to be effortless power which is usually a sign of a good player. Anybody who says he is 4.5 max based on that video is nuts.

Totally agree.

[TonLars]

Just to make a point really

3/28/2008
Vallis Wilder def. Glenn Britzius 6-4; 6-2, Quarterfinals, Men's 45 Singles
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=62813&E=3

Glenn is a relatively old (at least past 55 years) 5.0 type player who is on the decline and way past prime (sorry Glenn). He was an excellent player back in his day as well as Val. You can rate Val or anyone whatever you want I guess, but the point is once people get to that age, there is almost no way they are going to beat a "good" (5.5+) young college player that can run, and run them around all match long. Maybe some of these stories on here were from several years ago, but Im not going to believe anytime recently that Val has gone into good Open tournaments and trounced Division 1 college men. I wont post links to Glenn's results, but he will frequently take a beating of getting very few games against a decent 5.0.

[Mike Cottrill]

Just to make a point really

3/28/2008
Vallis Wilder def. Glenn Britzius 6-4; 6-2, Quarterfinals, Men's 45 Singles
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=62813&E=3

Glenn is a relatively old (at least past 55 years) 5.0 type player who is on the decline and way past prime (sorry Glenn). He was an excellent player back in his day as well as Val. You can rate Val or anyone whatever you want I guess, but the point is once people get to that age, there is almost no way they are going to beat a "good" (5.5+) young college player that can run, and run them around all match long. Maybe some of these stories on here were from several years ago, but Im not going to believe anytime recently that Val has gone into good Open tournaments and trounced Division 1 college men. I wont post links to Glenn's results, but he will frequently take a beating of getting very few games against a decent 5.0.

Okay Tony.. Lets say you are a 6.0. Busted wrist.. You a 5.0 now?
Val has/was busted as well. Injuries.. Injuries.. I have not talked or seen Val play in a while, so will let this go :neutral:. Not sure of any open tourneys he played in lately either. BTW, he USTA rated 5.5 T... You? 2001,2002 was the time frame on the trouncing.

What does Glenn say about his level?

[TonLars]

Okay Tony.. Lets say you are a 6.0. Busted wrist.. You a 5.0 now?
Val has/was busted as well. Injuries.. Injuries.. I have not talked or seen Val play in a while, so will let this go :neutral:. Not sure of any open tourneys he played in lately either. BTW, he USTA rated 5.5 T... You? 2001,2002 was the time frame on the trouncing.

What does Glenn say about his level?

Yeah, because of my wrist im definitely a fair amount worse. Some maybe would be surprised, but players I was beating easily last year I am now losing to or winning in close matches. Last night I played a 5.0 match against a guy I would be able to beat about 6-1 6-1 or so and I won 6-4 6-2. I broke his serve nearly every time, but I was broken that many games due to my serving handicap. I double fault frequently and I get zero free points.

I dont know Val and didnt know he was injured. I can certainly believe that 6 or 7 years ago like you said he was doing so well. Thats a huge difference in age I would think for strength, speed, injuries, coordination even probably. I understand the point youre making how once a certain rating always that rating. Maybe out of respect, or that the skill and experience are still there. But the body can go way down. So I think realistically ratings change due to age or injuries. The USTA even takes injuries into account when self rating. A good player with a shoulder or wrist injury making them serve underhanded like myself could play down into the lower level because thats where they now belong. I wouldnt rate Mcenroe or someone older as a 7.0, I wouldnt quite rate myself as a 6.0 even when I was healthy, Im not sure if im a 5.5 anymore now. I think I have the groundstrokes and whatnot to compete and maybe beat some really good players if Im doing everything my very best on a certain day, but Im at too much of a disadvantage really in the long run against a good player, especially someone who has a big time serve. Last weekend I played a player in a tournament who this spring was ranked as high as #16 in Division 1 singles. I lost 6-3 6-4 and felt I had a chance to beat him if I had played a little better, capitalized on some opportunities, and if he hadnt cheated. However, the truth might be more in the fact that since he is serving in the 120's and getting lots of free points, there is just way too much pressure on my groundstrokes and serve games to overcome a player like that. Glenn isnt playing 5.0 tennis this year because he hates to lose and really he is going to lose to players he was better than because he is simply getting old.

In short my opinion is that people realistically are going to be worse players as they age or have injuries. And so they would be more accurately rated.

[supertrex]

How can he hit that ball with ease? what are the technique?

Is the racquet just too light for him?

[Bungalo Bill]

I know that there are a lot of these ones on the boards, but these guys seemed really good, and I wan't to see what level (NTRP please) you think these guys are (I say the guy closer to the camera is a 4.5-5.0 and the other one is a 4.0-4.5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE0DZC_Hh9s

Yes, I would agree with you just based on their groundstrokes. Need to see the rest of their game but if it is like this, they are definetly advanced players.

The footwork and their the angle they took to the ball got a bit lazy but their were just rallying so hard to critique that given their strokes.

[BullDogTennis]

How can he hit that ball with ease? what are the technique?

Is the racquet just too light for him?


no chances are his racquet is really heavy. and its just having good form.

[Mike Cottrill]

Tony,
Good post and I agree with you. I just started to think how long it has been since I have seen Val play practice sets. It has been around three years. I was going to see him a few weeks ago but he canceled his match because of getting hurt in the clay 45’s. He is almost 50 now so I’m sure he is slowing some and the knee is not helping.

I can not make since of the USTA rating system. One player that has in the past given Val tough time is Van Winitsky who was 35 in the world at one time and is the same age as Val. USTA currently has him rated 5.0.

These older world class players get the ad from experience. That mental edge does count for something. Glenn probably has played Val more than once in the past. Do you see him? I wonder what he thinks of Val’s game back a few years and now.

Hope the best for your wrist. Hopefully it will get back to a no pain state.

As far as Mac, he still has game. Flipper looked like a fish out water when he played him in Dallas last year. But that had more to with Flipper than Mac.

[nytennisaddict]

Yep. I can always tell pretty early on in warm-up how the match is going to go. The litmus test is when they come up for volleys. If they look like they could be reading the paper while volleying, I get worried. The scariest is the guy who just simply doesn't miss a ball in warm-up.

But yeah: it's the guys that come out there and are just keeping up with you. Then the second you raise your game, they raise theirs. When it sucks is when you're controlling a point. . . and I mean controlling it with ease, and the dude hits a sick winner in the blink of an eye. You just stop and think 'WTF? But I. . . he was. . . WTF?!' It's usually at that point in the match that I start wondering how bad traffic is going to be in 30 minutes on the way home.
Great post... you summed up my thoughts :)

[toughshot]

The guy has a 4.0 looking forehand and a 6.0 looking backhand

note***slightly exaggerated*** =p

[toughshot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjlClQi62Kc

Niiiiice underhand dropvolley ;)

that's dirty.

[Mike Cottrill]

Just to make a point really

3/28/2008
Vallis Wilder def. Glenn Britzius 6-4; 6-2, Quarterfinals, Men's 45 Singles
http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=62813&E=3

Glenn is a relatively old (at least past 55 years) 5.0 type player who is on the decline and way past prime (sorry Glenn). He was an excellent player back in his day as well as Val. You can rate Val or anyone whatever you want I guess, but the point is once people get to that age, there is almost no way they are going to beat a "good" (5.5+) young college player that can run, and run them around all match long. Maybe some of these stories on here were from several years ago, but Im not going to believe anytime recently that Val has gone into good Open tournaments and trounced Division 1 college men. I wont post links to Glenn's results, but he will frequently take a beating of getting very few games against a decent 5.0.

Hi Tony, Have you talked to Glenn? If so, what did he say about Val's game? Have you played Glenn? Looks like Val has been running into him often. : http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=67756&E=1&D=M&S=F

Like you know, sometimes you play a guy and even though you get some games, there is not much you can do against their weapons.
Mike

[TonLars]

Hi Tony, Have you talked to Glenn? If so, what did he say about Val's game? Have you played Glenn? Looks like Val has been running into him often. : http://tennislink.usta.com/tournaments/Draws/EventDraw.aspx?T=67756&E=1&D=M&S=F

Like you know, sometimes you play a guy and even though you get some games, there is not much you can do against their weapons.
Mike

Nice. Yeah Val must be pretty tough of course, Glenn is still a good competitor for his age especially but like I said he didnt even play 5.0 this summer. I havent played or talked with him for about two years. I beat him fairly easily back then, and since then I have gotten better and he has gotten older. My wrist got alot better this summer and I can serve regularly, and was playing as well or better than ever before in the tournaments. I dont see myself losing any games to him to be honest unless something goes unusual. Youre right though, Val beat him 4 and 2 that one time not too long ago and now this time it was 3 and 0. Probably no way Val would lose and its just a matter of the breaks of serve and how they each are performing.

[halalula1234]

that guy near the camera is definetly a 4.5-5++ his forehand is really good and his backhand is consistent...my forehand sucks like a little toddler but my back hand is better than his.

[albino smurf]

"Is that lion dangerous?" "I don't know. I'd have to see it bite someone".

Is that you Sarah Palin?

[Mike Cottrill]

Nice. Yeah Val must be pretty tough of course, Glenn is still a good competitor for his age especially but like I said he didnt even play 5.0 this summer. I havent played or talked with him for about two years. I beat him fairly easily back then, and since then I have gotten better and he has gotten older. My wrist got alot better this summer and I can serve regularly, and was playing as well or better than ever before in the tournaments. I dont see myself losing any games to him to be honest unless something goes unusual. Youre right though, Val beat him 4 and 2 that one time not too long ago and now this time it was 3 and 0. Probably no way Val would lose and its just a matter of the breaks of serve and how they each are performing.


Tony, it appears you got some serious game. I still get a laugh about you saying that guy does not like loosing to someone up north. How much further north can you get lol. I’m curios myself how val’s has faired the last 7 years. I almost got to find out earlier this year but he got hurt. Just to be fair to glen though, IMO grass is val’s best surface. Good to hear your wrist is better.
Take care

[tennisdad65]

Easily 5.0+ for the guy near the camera. I wish my backhand was as good as his. :)

[Rickson]

Bant is easily a 5.5. Bant didn't make a single error.

[Bantlord]

Wow,

I feel honoured so many of you guys have taken the time to comment on my video. Someone from here kindly informed me on you tube about the link.


To clear up............

I am not sure how the US system works but I (being bantlord, the guy in the foreground) played on the futures tour until a few weeks ago, I have now retired from competitive play to actually get a job that will make me some money :)


The guy in the background is 16 (15 when this was filmed) He is one of the top players in the UK (juniors) and will hopefully be playing all the junior slams next year.


The video is not recorded in a biased way, the rallies are as they happened with the picking of the balls up edited out.

Yes I would totally agree that my 4 hand is not text book, hoever I am consistent enough and powerful enough to just about get away with it.

My biggest weakness is my laziness in recovery, this is amplified by the fact I was injured whilst making this video.



cheers for watching and feel free to criticise or big up. :)

[kairosntx]

Not really related to the thread but I know where you can find Val on a regular basis.

I talked with the Fossil Ridge H.S. coach on Monday who said Val gives lessons on the FRHS courts MWF evenings. Not sure where Ted Hargett is doing his Junior Developement now since he used to use the FRHS courts.

Maybe I should have posted this in the useless information thread!

[TonLars]

Wow,

I feel honoured so many of you guys have taken the time to comment on my video. Someone from here kindly informed me on you tube about the link.


I am not sure how the US system works but I (being bantlord, the guy in the foreground) played on the futures tour until a few weeks ago, I have now retired from competitive play to actually get a job that will make me some money :)


Yes I would totally agree that my 4 hand is not text book, hoever I am consistent enough and powerful enough to just about get away with it.

My biggest weakness is my laziness in recovery, this is amplified by the fact I was injured whilst making this video.

cheers for watching and feel free to criticise or big up. :)

Yep nice hitting. I figured you were about a 5.5 level player and I was right. Looks like a tough one handed backhand that I would try to pick on but would find out soon that its solid. Its too bad theres no money to be made in this sport for us, playing at least

[vamosrafa20]

5.0 for the guy in blue, and 4.5 for guy in red. The guy in blue seems like kind of a tool, to me. Poor etiquette: he keeps staring at other courts, smacking winners, etc. That's just a personal thing with me: I can't stand when I hit with someone and they hit winners or hit the crap out of the ball when it's a 70% rally (as in 70% of max pace). He knows he's better than the guy in red, and takes advantage of that. And the guy in blue is obviously trying to get the attention of someone on another court, as he keeps staring over there. If I were the guy in red, I would ask the guy in blue to just man up and go get her number. :mrgreen:

How is someone being a tool make them a better or worse tennis player?
The guy in the blue can flat out play.

[ramseszerg]

Yep nice hitting. I figured you were about a 5.5 level player and I was right. Looks like a tough one handed backhand that I would try to pick on but would find out soon that its solid. Its too bad theres no money to be made in this sport for us, playing at least

If you guys love the game, and you obviously have the skill level, experience and knowledge to benefit other players, why not learn to coach?

[TonLars]

If you guys love the game, and you obviously have the skill level, experience and knowledge to benefit other players, why not learn to coach?

:)Thats exactly why I am coaching, well teaching drills and lessons at a facility rather. I love playing more than anything, and teaching can be fun too, so even though I dont get paid much its a great job for me! I would really enjoy coaching a college team someday in the future if I get the chance.

[ramseszerg]

:)Thats exactly why I am coaching, well teaching drills and lessons at a facility rather. I love playing more than anything, and teaching can be fun too, so even though I dont get paid much its a great job for me! I would really enjoy coaching a college team someday in the future if I get the chance.

Darn, if you, an accomplished 5.0 player, "dont get paid much", that means if I somehow manage to become a 4.5 player, learn how to be a great coach, I will be poor? I think I know that's probably true.. I mean, as a 4.5 coach I would be charging 30 an hour max.. I can make that right now tutoring chemistry, and that barely covers my tennis stuff and books for school...

[user92626]

I know that there are a lot of these ones on the boards, but these guys seemed really good, and I wan't to see what level (NTRP please) you think these guys are (I say the guy closer to the camera is a 4.5-5.0 and the other one is a 4.0-4.5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE0DZC_Hh9s

Definitely pushers.

[TonLars]

Darn, if you, an accomplished 5.0 player, "dont get paid much", that means if I somehow manage to become a 4.5 player, learn how to be a great coach, I will be poor? I think I know that's probably true.. I mean, as a 4.5 coach I would be charging 30 an hour max.. I can make that right now tutoring chemistry, and that barely covers my tennis stuff and books for school...

The playing ability only has a part in coaching of course. Im a 5.5-6.0 player so that can help since I have some playing experience that others dont have, and I can help better players in ways other coaches might not be able to. I have a good handle on the game since I can hit the shots myself. But teaching it effectively is what its all about, through communication and even observation skills to be able to help someone. Thinking of ability appropriate drills, which often are dependant on the number of players present is needed as well. I can go on, but overall teaching is tough, and has alot of skills needed besides being able to play efficiently. Fortunately my Education degree prepared me alot and combined with my tennis upbringing I like to think my actual teaching is for the most part good quality. However, I do admit theres often days and times where I think about how Id like to be able to communicate better, know more drills, know a good way to have someone learn what theyre doing wrong and how they can improve, and etc. I havent been teaching long so I hope with time and experience I will continue to improve. And of course you deal with plenty of kids who like to goof off, are lazy, or get angry and tank/give up, or rude customers and dealing with that is a challenge, as much for my own mental state by being affected by seeing that as well as helping them to not do it for their own good.

The hourly rate is great for teaching tennis, although that too can vary I guess. People make anywhere from 25-100's$ for teaching an hour lesson. The main issue is working hours. If youre only working on average 30 or less a week like me, thats not a whole lot of income. Living in Minnesota where it snows and tennis is not as popular make it tough to do it here also. Being in the right place though, teaching tennis can do fine. But like I said its not about the money for me. I love to play, and for the most part teaching is pretty fun, and thats more important to me, so far.