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Hot Sauce
02-08-2008, 05:47 PM
I heard somewhere that the majority of computer users right now are using Apples. Is this true?

Edit: Forgot to mention that the person told me this was for laptops.

cadfael_tex
02-08-2008, 05:55 PM
Simplest Answer: No.

The vast majority of the computing world is PC. That being said I switched to Macs about 7 years ago and have been happy with the simplicity and stability. (So they should ;) )

TennisandMusic
02-08-2008, 05:55 PM
I heard somewhere that the majority of computer users right now are using Apples. Is this true?

No way in heck.

Fedfan4life
02-08-2008, 06:01 PM
No way in heck.

He probably meant the majority is Microsoft not Apple. Though if you look at the numbers, Apple tripled its market share in the last quarter. Go Steve Jobs!!!

TennisandMusic
02-08-2008, 06:05 PM
He probably meant the majority is Microsoft not Apple. Though if you look at the numbers, Apple tripled its market share in the last quarter. Go Steve Jobs!!!

so...are they up to 9% now? Seriously in total the PC market still dominates...I use both OSX and Windows and think both are fine (but I'm still on XP not vista), but I don't dig the mac snobbery from most of the users. But Apple in no way even approaches MS's numbers...

Fedfan4life
02-08-2008, 06:20 PM
so...are they up to 9% now? Seriously in total the PC market still dominates...I use both OSX and Windows and think both are fine (but I'm still on XP not vista), but I don't dig the mac snobbery from most of the users. But Apple in no way even approaches MS's numbers...

Are you running in parallels or different machine? Apple will obviously not get to MS's dominance i think ever. I'm happy with their growth but disappointed about the fact that Apple's market tripled and best quarter of the company's history then the company stock value tanked from 200 to 130.

max
02-08-2008, 06:20 PM
Love my minimac! I think the big news is that Apple's COMPUTER sales doubled over the last year. With good reason! Excellent stuff and worth the extra money.

yodudedudeyo
02-08-2008, 06:22 PM
at my university, if you look at everyone's laptops during class, it's pretty evenly split, 50-50 macs and pc. actually, macs might have an edge in terms of numbers at college

matchpoint
02-08-2008, 06:23 PM
I heard somewhere that the majority of computer users right now are using Apples. Is this true?

Maybe you mean majority of mac users uses windows for their operating system?

cadfael_tex
02-08-2008, 06:27 PM
Maybe you mean majority of mac users uses windows for their operating system?

Don't think that's it.

Mister G
02-08-2008, 06:28 PM
but I don't dig the mac snobbery from most of the users....

Careful what you say, movdqa might crawl in here and spew his Mac rules all propaganda. :shock:

yodudedudeyo
02-08-2008, 06:35 PM
i do like how macs can boot up in about 4 seconds though...my windows xp laptop takes about 3 minutes to boot up...

scotus
02-08-2008, 07:48 PM
i do like how macs can boot up in about 4 seconds though...my windows xp laptop takes about 3 minutes to boot up...

Try the "Hybernate" function instead of "Shutdown" on the Windows. It takes only a few seconds to get the computer started.

yodudedudeyo
02-08-2008, 08:34 PM
How are standby and hibernate really any different besides the fact that you dont use any power with hibernate? Also, sometimes when i do standby and put my laptop in my bag, later to start it up again and find that my machine is frozen. Why is this? I mean, in standby arnt the harddrives supposed to be off? so why would this freeze occur?

Hot Sauce
02-09-2008, 01:03 AM
My brother told me that his prof told the class that there are more Apple users than Microsoft users as far as laptops go. I forgot to mention this, but the question is only limited to laptops.

tzinc
02-09-2008, 01:39 AM
No but I wish it were true. Microsoft is truly one of the WORST corporations in the world. Everything they do is substandard (their email, game system, you name it). They make their money by stealing from others PS2 Apple etc and then using monopolistic tactics to maintain market share.

The government should not let them takeover Yahoo. For years they have been trying to get Yahoo to charge for email so they could charge too.

DrewRafter8
02-09-2008, 05:17 AM
Yeah, I've converted to my Inotebook. It's absolutely brilliant compared to my wife's crappy hp notebook.

PROTENNIS63
02-09-2008, 05:39 AM
Macs take a few seconds to start ... that's what awesome about them. Microsoft still dominate though with the computers.

Fedfan4life
02-09-2008, 06:42 AM
No but I wish it were true. Microsoft is truly one of the WORST corporations in the world. Everything they do is substandard (their email, game system, you name it). They make their money by stealing from others PS2 Apple etc and then using monopolistic tactics to maintain market share.

The government should not let them takeover Yahoo. For years they have been trying to get Yahoo to charge for email so they could charge too.

44 billion is chump change for Microsoft buying Yahoo. Their just very wary that Google is getting too much power. Dissappointing that Google didn't win the Spectrum auction. Oh well, I'll just move to Mountain View for free wifi.

35ft6
02-09-2008, 12:30 PM
Man, you're getting some really really bad information.

Hot Sauce
02-09-2008, 12:52 PM
Thought so. Does anyone have any statistical information that I could tell my brother to disprove him?

yodudedudeyo
02-09-2008, 03:54 PM
a simple 'you're stupid' will be all the evidence you need

nickolaika
02-09-2008, 06:41 PM
Mac is just a brand name for suckers. Mac doesn't make the motherboard, the processor, the memory or anything else that is inside the "Apple" box that you pay a hefty premium for.

I would only switch to mac when I can buy all its parts and put it together the way I want it. Until then I'll stick with my PC. Also there is not enough software for mac.

------
Nick www.36x78.com

matchpoint
02-09-2008, 07:07 PM
Macs are just another PC clone like Dell & Compaq BUT they're the most expensive. :mrgreen:

cadfael_tex
02-09-2008, 07:10 PM
One problem with calling it a clone or just a PC for suckers - totally different operating system.

BTW, IBM doesn't even make the 'PC' any more so 'clone' went out with the PC-AT about two decades ago.

matchpoint
02-09-2008, 07:17 PM
One problem with calling it a clone or just a PC for suckers - totally different operating system.

BTW, IBM doesn't even make the 'PC' any more so 'clone' went out with the PC-AT about two decades ago.

So why do they use Windows, Outlook, Explorer, Office do you want some more?

akoni
02-09-2008, 07:26 PM
I heard somewhere that the majority of computer users right now are using Apples. Is this true?

Edit: Forgot to mention that the person told me this was for laptops.
not even close. im pretty sure for personal use, the number of people using mac osx has increased in the last couple of years, but i would be surprised if its market share was great than 15%. if you take into account business use (and most major corporations use laptops nowadays) its not even close as dell, hp, and lenovo control those markets and they all use some form of windows.

cadfael_tex
02-10-2008, 04:00 AM
So why do they use Windows, Outlook, Explorer, Office do you want some more?

One out of 4 ain't bad, I guess. Office is still used (although there are alternatives) and you can now dual boot into windows (but don't know why you'd want to). But not outlook and explorer. Those aren't even the best on the PC (thunderbird and firefox).

Morpheus
02-10-2008, 04:57 AM
Here is some data that shows how meager Mac's share is:

"With Mac shipments rising from 655,000 to 760,000 year-over-year for the second quarter, Apple’s U.S. market jumped from 4.4 percent in 2005 to 4.8 percent in 2006 — a double-digital growth of 16 percent, according to market research firm IDC."

If you segment the market (e.g., home use, education, business) I think you'll find that PCs dominate in business and at home. I'm not surprised that many of you who are still in school see a lot of Macs.

I use both: PC at work and Macs at home and have done so since I bought my first Mac in 1983. I like elements of both systems. The biggest difference is that I never have to maintain my Mac, but my PC is always running into problems and needs constant attention.

movdqa
02-10-2008, 06:28 AM
Careful what you say, movdqa might crawl in here and spew his Mac rules all propaganda. :shock:

I never said that Mac rules all so yes, you are telling a lie.

That said, I just bought a MacBook Pro for our son as he needs a unix environment for school and I didn't feel like installing and maintaining a Linux system. I'm waiting for Apple to release their Penryn-based MacBook Pros to get one for myself for both Mac OSX and Windows development.

movdqa
02-10-2008, 06:35 AM
Here is some data that shows how meager Mac's share is:

"With Mac shipments rising from 655,000 to 760,000 year-over-year for the second quarter, Apple’s U.S. market jumped from 4.4 percent in 2005 to 4.8 percent in 2006 — a double-digital growth of 16 percent, according to market research firm IDC."

If you segment the market (e.g., home use, education, business) I think you'll find that PCs dominate in business and at home. I'm not surprised that many of you who are still in school see a lot of Macs.

I use both: PC at work and Macs at home and have done so since I bought my first Mac in 1983. I like elements of both systems. The biggest difference is that I never have to maintain my Mac, but my PC is always running into problems and needs constant attention.

It appears that Apple sells into market segments where it can make given margins. MacMinis start at $600 without a KVM. I bought a nicely equipped PC for $489 with an E4600 and 20 inch LCD monitor. You could probably buy a low-end PC without a monitor for quite a bit less. The MacBooks start at $1099 while someone at the office asked me about a $399 notebook from Dell a few days ago. So PCs have a bigger target market as they include those with thinner wallets. PC and chip sales have been remarkably robust despite the economic downturn as a result of the subprime mortgage bubble bursting.

Apple should be able to ride a nice technology wave this year with new chips from Intel, solid-state flash drives, new wireless options and their own innovative technologies.

movdqa
02-10-2008, 06:55 AM
How are standby and hibernate really any different besides the fact that you dont use any power with hibernate? Also, sometimes when i do standby and put my laptop in my bag, later to start it up again and find that my machine is frozen. Why is this? I mean, in standby arnt the harddrives supposed to be off? so why would this freeze occur?

Standby keeps memory powered and puts the processor into the lowest power state. So it still consumes a small amount of power but it's in a state to come back to life with minimal effort to restart.

Hibernate copies the contents of RAM to the hard disk and then powers everything down. When you restart, Windows loads RAM from the copy of memory on the disk which takes longer than standby but should be faster than booting up. Obviously the amount of time coming back from hibernate is related to the amount of RAM that you have and the performance characteristics of the hard drive.

Third-Party applications have to play well with standby and hibernate for it to work and sometimes you have some software with bugs that don't play well with these shutdown options. So sometimes standby wakes up immediately, or the computer won't come out of standby or the monitor won't come on or USB devices won't be seen.

The Mac also has standby mode. For those that don't want to wait the four seconds.

movdqa
02-10-2008, 07:00 AM
My brother told me that his prof told the class that there are more Apple users than Microsoft users as far as laptops go. I forgot to mention this, but the question is only limited to laptops.

Here are the marketshare numbers. The professor sounds like he's talking about current users which would include cumulative sales minus systems no longer in use. But marketshare should be a reasonable proxy to show that the professor is incorrect.

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/10/11/report-apple-gains-29-share-of-notebooks/

Mister G
02-10-2008, 11:23 AM
I never said that Mac rules all so yes, you are telling a lie.

I'm the one telling a lie huh? Judging from previous experience, I'd say you are the one full of BS. See below for further details, have a nice day.

http://i29.tinypic.com/27wslj8.jpg

movdqa
02-10-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm the one telling a lie huh? Judging from previous experience, I'd say you are the one full of BS. See below for further details, have a nice day.

http://i29.tinypic.com/27wslj8.jpg

Yes, you're the one telling a lie.


> And just when I thought you would stay quiet so we can end this thread
> in a peaceful matter.... you had come out of the bushes and spew your
> BS and **** me off again. Why do you insist on running around in
> circles? I counter your point, you say "prove it". I prove it, you say
> "prove it"... round and round we go, are you having fun?

Perhaps you could ask yourself your question. And then you could ask
yourself why you don't have the self-control to follow-through on what
you've said that you would do:

> You can reply and post random semi-related links all day, I wont
> bother replying to them anymore because I've counter posted almost
> everything you said and you just come back with "ad hominem".

>> It isn't hocus pocus. All you have to do is learn modern reasoning.The
>> book that I suggested earlier provides a good start.
> Posting articles non-related to topic at hand isnt
> reasoning. Especially when they support your biased opinions.

Actually it is. You'll find it in Introduction to Logic by Copi. Or
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding by John Locke.

>> Simplicity usually implies brevity.
> Yet another one of your useless comments, nothing to follow through
> with but your philosophical banter.

At least you're getting shorter with your insults.

>> I never said this. Please state where I said that I need to maintain
>> my PC 48 hours a week.
> How many times have I asked you if you spent NOTORIOUS amounts of time
> maintaining your PC?

I give up. How many times did you ask? Did I respond with the amount
of time that I personally spend? Or did I post articles on studies on
the maintenance costs of PCs vs Macs? I don't recall posting any time
figures on maintenance costs of PCs or Macs.

> How many times have you admitted it yourself?

I posted no time measures so I guess your answer is zero.

> You EXAGGERATED, so did I. Learn to put 2 and 2 together.

I didn't exxagerate. You picked a number out of your hat.

>> I don't spend 48 hours a week nor 15 hours a day maintaining my PCs.
> So NOW you deny spending time on maintaining your PCs? Or do you admit
> that you were exaggerating? When previously stating that you DO, you
> didnt DENY anything but instead said: "Oh now you admit PCs take tons
> of maintenance time?" Hypocrisy at its best.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

If you drew a Venn Diagram with data points of spending 28 hours a week
maintaining PCs, spending 15 hours a day maintaining PCs and spending
zero hours on maintaining PCs, I think that you'd find that there were
potential cases outside your trinary conundrum.

>> I've provided article after article on the maintenance costs of PCs
>> based on surveys of IT professionals. You've provided only your
>> personal opinion.
> Let me say this again - I never denied PCs require more maintenance
> than Macs, get that through your very thick skull and skin for that
> matter. That has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are clearly
> biased.. Read post #60.

Your statement is false on its face. If I were biased, I wouldn't have
only 2 Macs and 8 PCs. As I've often stated, I pick the best hardware
and software for the intended purpose.

>> PCs are the default.
> Good comment there. :roll:

Thanks.

>> Strawman. Please state where I said that "Windows blows
>> chunks". Windows does have higher maintenance costs - documented
>> several times. I don't own a Mac Pro so you're wrong there.
> Once again you fail to understand my point. Have you said anything
> GOOD about Windows? No. You've done nothing to say how terrible it
> is.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

> Which one can say, that you think it sucks, i.e. blows chunks. Dont
> play word games with me now, grow up. Oh, you own a MacBOOK Pro. I'm
> sorry :roll:

I own 8 Windows systems. My latest purchase was a Dell Vostro. If I
thought that "Windows blows chunks", I wouldn't have such a high ratio
of Windows machines to Macs nor would my last machine be a Windows
machine. If you walked up to someone on the street and they made a
case for the MacBook Pro but had 8 Windows desktops, do you think that
they'd prefer Mac/OSX or Windows? Now I stated that I have a copy of
Windows running on the MacBook Pro. And I explained the different ways
that one could install Windows on a MacBook Pro to coexist with Mac
OSX. If I thought that Windows was really that bad, why would I have
bothered to do that?

>> As I wrote before, you said that there were only two types of users. I
>> contradicted that. That you cannot see this implies a gross defect in
>> reasoning.
> You contradicted that by agreeing that your wife is one of the users?
> Mac user = specialist user (i.e. one who knows what hes doing) or
> "dumb" user. You along with your "world-class engineers" the former,
> the wife the latter. How is that "defect" in reasoning?

You said that there were only two types of users. Here's one of them.

>>> People who either know what they are doing and need a professional
>>> platform for graphic/audio work.

Note your conjunction.

There are more than two types. That's pretty simple, isn't it? Your
statement says that one of the types requires one to need a
professional platform for graphics/audio work. There are many out
there that need a platform for engineering work that don't fall into
either of your categories.

>> I demonstrated that they are for more than two types of people. Simple
>> logic.
> What other types? Apart from specialist and "dumb" which pretty much
> cover everything? Unless you use your Mac as a toaster? Do tell us.

You are apparently changing your position from what you originally
wrote. Is this an admission that what you previously wrote is
incorrect?

>> It is a response to a personal attack. A personal attack is no
>> argument. And that is why one replies Argumentum Ad Hominem. Because
>> the other person said nothing.
> Funny how you seem to think your "clever" insulting isnt insulting.
> Calling someone else an idiot is the same thing as saying they are
> genetically incapable of being smart in this context. So stop playing
> word games.

Strawman.

>> Why do you think Karl deletes posts withname-calling in them?
> Exactly for the reason I said just 15 seconds ago. Insults are
> insults. I just happen to be more blunt.

So your earlier paranoid post was untrue?

>> Non-responsive.
> As expected.

Non-responsive.

>> "How much does it cost to maintain Windows and Mac OS X? Since Apple
>> has released five times as many major updates and over fifteen times
>> as many minor updates to Mac OS X since 2000, you might not have
>> guessed that Windows actually costs users five times as much to keep
>> up to date!
> Interesting point when really my updates dont cost me a thing.

My updates cost me time. And those mandatory ones which reboot your
machine for you are really annoying. Read the whole article for the
details on costs.

>> Yes. This is what I indicated. I've done thousands of Windows
>> installations and do know a little about the process.
> Which would explain why it took you "hours" to remove the 100 programs
> that came with your HP laptop.

I work in software development. Part of software development is
installation testing. You take a bunch of machines and engineers and
run installation and validation of your products to clean up any
installation problems. A lot of that has been automated today but
in the old days, we did a lot of that by hand.

>> No you can't. The hardware vendors provide drivers on the preinstalled
>> image. If you install from a standalone Windows CD, you have to find
>> and install the drivers yourself. This is what makes Apple's Boot Camp
>> so nice. They automate the driver process for you.
> Drivers are on the CD. Which means its there, that was my point. Not
> that the whole process was automatic.

Some drivers are on the Windows installation CD. Dell typically ships
additional driver disks for hardware that doesn't come on the Windows
CD. If you have new devices in your system, you might have to go to
the vendor's website to find drivers.

>> But you're still wrong about the Windows Repair Disk. If you only
>> damage one or a few Windows OS files, you can use the Windows CD
>> to do a repair installation. This just fixes the broken files.
> Which goes back to your point that the Win recovery doesnt do its job
> right? Didnt think so.

You still don't understand how the Windows Repair installation works.
The Windows Repair Installation is used for fixing a small number of
files. This can be far faster than using a full image backup and
rollforward.

>> You don't have to reinstall all of your programs and
>> restore your data from backup. As I wrote before, you don't seem to
>> know what a repair install is.

> Err.. sorry to burst your bubble once again but I already knew this. I
> was assuming (to my fault) that we were talking about a full
> format/restore.

movdqa
02-10-2008, 11:47 AM
The point that I originally made was that HP doesn't provide recover
disks. They require you to make them. Even if you do make them, you
can't do a Windows Repair Installation. If you want to recover, you
have to recover from a full backup or a full backup + incremental
restore.

Dell provides the Windows CDs and CDs for the installation of
additional software and drivers. And this is one of the reasons as to
why I prefer Dell.

> How am I not surprised. You couldn't list them because you didnt have
> 100 or so programs as you said. You were clearly exaggerating, what
> else is new.

Simply one of your oft-repeated and untrue assertions.

>> If you have proof of this, please provide it.
> Grow up. If your computer really did come with 100 programs as you
> STATED. List them and PROVE it. You made an OBNOXIOUS statement, and I
> asked you to prove it. Now you are turning around and telling me to
> prove that you DONT have it? Whats wrong with you... List the 100
> programs and prove me wrong. Simple solution for you. Unless of course
> you were exaggerating... uh oh. *

Nothing wrong with me. You're just unreasonable.

>> With HP, this is not possible. They do not provide the installation
>> disks. This is why I recommend purchasing from Dell. You seem to have
>> a hard time comprehending this simple matter.
> Irrelevant. Now you divert the topic at hand and make another
> irrelevant point about formatting when really Im asking you for a very
> simple answer.

You kept telling me that I didn't understand the situation regarding
backup and now you call your point irrelevant?

>> I think that tag belongs to you.
> Says the "Worlds best programmer" or whatever you called yourself -
> who cant replace a faulty PSU on his 18month old computer. Oh
> dear... the irony.

Please point out where I said that I'm the world's best programmer. I
never made such a claim. Your assertion that I can't replace a faulty
Power Supply is false.

>> I think that you're referring to BigServer1. I've been very pleased
>> with the quality of products from Dell.
> No. It was you sorry. How convenient for you that that post containing
> those exact words have been zapped. You did say those exact words, I'm
> more than certain.

Your posts were zapped. I don't think that my posts back there were
zapped. At any rate, you should still have them in your email.

>> That's right, you have to spend all your time building new systems.
> Argumentum ad hominem.

I wasn't making an argument.

>> If you feel misquoted, please post what you actually wrote.
> Not exactly possible when the posts have been erased is it?

Then you shouldn't make the claim.

>> No. I believe that I should be able to pick and choose my own hobbies
>> and do what I enjoy doing and that I should be able to outsource
>> everything else.
> Exactly. So dont tell me to go and build an OS. Not everyone spends 30
> years in the IT/computing business like you. Such arrogancy.

So don't go telling me to build my own system. Funny that you can't see
that point.

>> Perhaps you can understand that others out there are not particular
>> interested in spending their time building systems because they have
>> other passions and things that they want to do in life.

> *And perhaps you can understand that a PC based machine is absoutely
> managable, even to the everyday user,

There was a study done on the average time that a PC is online before
getting hit with a network threat and the time period was quite short.
So if you didn't have the correct updates, security software, etc.
installed, your machine could get infected just by hooking it up to
the internet. It helps to have a firewall but that doesn't help those
that use dialup.

We have an IT staff at work and they deal with viruses, spyware and
all kinds of threats in addition to configuring systems and fixing
hardware problems. Just about everyone, from time to time, requires
a little help from the IT staff with their systems. And sometimes
a lot of help is required. Particularly when systems get infected.

> and that they dont necessarily have to build it if they dont wish to
> do so. Most people in fact, dont!

Yes, I stated this several times.

> You even say you love your new Dell, but oh, Windows is terrible, it
> costs so much to maintain and update.. What are you running on it if
> may I ask?

I didn't say that I love my new Dell. It meets the needs of its
intended purpose.

Please state where I said that Windows is terrible.

I stated that maintenance costs were higher than Mac systems.

I'm running Windows XP Home on the system.

> The reason why I brought up this whole build your own PC topic, was
> because you seem to claim you are the expert, and experts who want the
> best (like you say you do) build their stuff, they dont buy it
> pre-made for the mass commercial user (which you say you clearly
> arent) How many more contradictions will you make on here?

I purchased a Dell Vostro. Anyone familiar with Dell's product line
would know that it is a low-end system. I buy systems to meet needs
and I buy the best systems to meet those needs. That's about as
unbiased as you can get. The contradictions are a figment of your
imagination.

> You claim you are not arrogant?
> You claim you are not "I am a superior" Mac user?

Please provide a basis for your assertations.

>> So why do you continue posting here?
> Continusouly ****ging off PCs (admittedly mostly Microsoft and Vista)
> Not saying one good thing about them, apart from YOUR OWN Dell?

My own Dells. All six of them. I wrote that I'm happy with my HP laptop too.
Not happy with the desktops though. That's about as unbiased as it comes.

>> Even after I openly stated that they are more reliable and stable
>> machines?
> This is NOT a Mac VS PC thread. Get that through your head.

What was the thread topic again? MacBook vs Windows machine.

> And get that list of 100 programs that your HP came with... otherwise
> dont bother replying because we will all find out that you were truly
> exaggerating your claims, just like you do with half of your other
> comments about the PC. Prove me wrong, please.*

Non sequitur.

>> I'm the best in the world at build 64-bit release versions of Windows
>> Firefox and Thundebird.
> Thank you for reassuring us.

So you were wrong in your assertion.

>> You seem to be rather argumentative despite how you portray yourself.
> I'm not the type of person to give up especially when I know I'm
> right. If that makes me argumentative, so be it...

Interesting. You said that you were not going to post again but yet
here you are posting again.

>> The issues you bring up are really not issues at all.
> Your exaggerating comments are issues, especially when they affect the
> choices of others people that are perhaps not-so informed about PCs
> and Macs.

I think that the original poster would have done fine without your
comments.

>> Name-calling is a sign of disrespect to your fellow board-members.
> Sorry fellow, I lost all respect for you once you started dodging your
> own words so thats not really an issue anymore.

It's a sign to of disrespect to all board-members.

>> BTW, can't you even do what you're going to say that you're going to do?
> Like I said (before it got deleted) this thread was to die in peace
> until you came yapping here again trolling like you do... You
> initiated my defense yet again, so here I am.

No, that's not what you said. I can pull it back if you really want to
read it again. At any rate, the longest thread in argumentation that I've
been in lasted for about a year with thousands of posts.

> *Once again, you cant even answer my question, you cant even come up
> with the proof you need, to just end this rather distasteful
> conversation. Just shows how unbelievable you really are. You know
> you were wrong, yet you cant admit it... smoke and mirrors all the way
> through. Thanks for proving my point once again. Much appreciated :)*

You seem to think that I care about your questions.

Mister G
02-10-2008, 11:53 AM
Which would explain why you bothered to start writing a novel in response to my post? Way to go! (I didnt even bother reading it by the way, not sure anyone else will) See you later Steve :)

WBF
02-10-2008, 12:00 PM
tldr, please learn how to concisely state an argument.

swimntennis
02-10-2008, 12:08 PM
I switched to Mac last Christmas and would never go back. Since then I've also bought two iPods and am looking to buy a Macbook for my next year of school. They really do just work.

Also note the subliminal message I've been spreading through my avatar.

;)

movdqa
02-10-2008, 12:35 PM
I switched to Mac last Christmas and would never go back. Since then I've also bought two iPods and am looking to buy a Macbook for my next year of school. They really do just work.

Also note the subliminal message I've been spreading through my avatar.

;)

Wait for Penryn if you can. You get a five to ten percent performance boost, better battery life (I've read a lab test showing 55 minutes more battery life on the MacBook Pro at the same clock frequency), and the SSE4.1 instruction set. There are rumors that the new models will sport the multitouch interface too.

35ft6
02-10-2008, 01:09 PM
Mac is just a brand name for suckers. Mac doesn't make the motherboard, the processor, the memory or anything else that is inside the "Apple" box that you pay a hefty premium for. Personally, I'm paying for the OS. Not to mention Windows computers tend to look like junk whereas Apple computers actually beautiful my apartment.

swimntennis
02-10-2008, 01:14 PM
Wait for Penryn if you can. You get a five to ten percent performance boost, better battery life (I've read a lab test showing 55 minutes more battery life on the MacBook Pro at the same clock frequency), and the SSE4.1 instruction set. There are rumors that the new models will sport the multitouch interface too.

I know; I'm an active reader and poster on MacRumors. I didn't know about that much increased battery life though. That sounds great. I wouldn't be buying until around Christmas 2008 either way.

max
02-10-2008, 01:25 PM
Guys who like PC stuff are the same kind of guys who, a generation ago, would be working on their cars in the driveway all afternoon: they just enjoy getting into the mechanics of it all. Macs don't require that much user maintenance.

Interesting to hear the one fellow above ejaculate the opinion that Macs copy PCs: the Apple personal computer came out well before the IBM PC.

In the end, it's anyone's choice. I'm just glad my mac doesn't crash as much as my PC did, and it's not so easy to get screwed up with viruses, etc.

nickb
02-10-2008, 02:43 PM
Those who complain about PC's crashing, getting virus's etc just dont know how to use and maintain them properly...

movdqa
02-10-2008, 02:56 PM
Those who complain about PC's crashing, getting virus's etc just dont know how to use and maintain them properly...

Probably true.

But a lot of people don't care to do maintenance.

cadfael_tex
02-10-2008, 03:29 PM
Probably true.

But a lot of people don't care to do maintenance.

Especially if you don't have to or the computer takes care of alot of it for you. By the time I update windows, AVG, a couple of spyware cleaners, zone alarm, and run ccleaner on my wife's computer I'm ready to go back and do some worry free surfing on my mac.

Morpheus
02-10-2008, 04:30 PM
Those who complain about PC's crashing, getting virus's etc just dont know how to use and maintain them properly...

That's the point. You don't have to spend much effort to maintain a Mac.

Feña14
02-10-2008, 06:41 PM
That's the point. You don't have to spend much effort to maintain a Mac.

Yeah they are alot more user friendly in general too. I have a far easier time setting up my Mac to a wireless network than I do windows based machines.

Hot Sauce
02-10-2008, 08:03 PM
Here are the marketshare numbers. The professor sounds like he's talking about current users which would include cumulative sales minus systems no longer in use. But marketshare should be a reasonable proxy to show that the professor is incorrect.

http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/10/11/report-apple-gains-29-share-of-notebooks/

I'm not sure I understand.

yodudedudeyo
02-10-2008, 08:35 PM
man..i reallllllly wish my laptop (windows xp) had the ability to boot up in 4 seconds and 6 hour battery life.

quicken
02-10-2008, 08:53 PM
Yea apple is nice and all, but its just their ridiculous pricing. I mean I could get the same specced laptop that Apple has for 1500 for 1000 from Dell or some other company.

People say "oh, Windows has a lot of security problems blah blah blah." I dont really care because I know how to take a good care of my computer. If you put the effort into searching some protective programs that defends the computer from any kind of virus or hacking programs, its not a big problem. But then thats my hobby I guess. 500 dollars means a lot to me hehe.

mucat
02-10-2008, 09:01 PM
My brother told me that his prof told the class that there are more Apple users than Microsoft users as far as laptops go. I forgot to mention this, but the question is only limited to laptops.

I doubt it. Of all the companies I have been in and all the companies I know about. Zero of them using mac laptops. And I am talking about some worldwide companies.

Maybe in campus or starbuck or somewhere similiar will have more apple laptop users.

gocard
02-10-2008, 09:32 PM
has any Mac user here tried out using the Microsoft Office that is compatible for Apple computers? Does it work well? I have heard conflicting opinions so just wondering.

akoni
02-10-2008, 10:54 PM
Yea apple is nice and all, but its just their ridiculous pricing. I mean I could get the same specced laptop that Apple has for 1500 for 1000 from Dell or some other company.

People say "oh, Windows has a lot of security problems blah blah blah." I dont really care because I know how to take a good care of my computer. If you put the effort into searching some protective programs that defends the computer from any kind of virus or hacking programs, its not a big problem. But then thats my hobby I guess. 500 dollars means a lot to me hehe.
i agree, macs look nice, but when it comes to bang for the buck pc's win outright. however, with the premium you pay for a mac you do get the assurance that your hardware and software will work flawlessly together, which is easier considering the hardware is put together by the same company that created the os. with a windows based machine, there's always the possibility of driver issues, incompatible hardware, etc. but imo a lot of those issues are far less prevalent then they were in the windows 9x days. that being said, mac osx is a great operating system, but i would never get a mac to replace my desktop. im a competent enough user to have my windows machine running flawlessly, i want to ability to upgrade my hardware to the latest and greatest when i want to, and the best thing about pc's, GAMES!.

movdqa
02-11-2008, 02:42 AM
Yea apple is nice and all, but its just their ridiculous pricing. I mean I could get the same specced laptop that Apple has for 1500 for 1000 from Dell or some other company.

People say "oh, Windows has a lot of security problems blah blah blah." I dont really care because I know how to take a good care of my computer. If you put the effort into searching some protective programs that defends the computer from any kind of virus or hacking programs, its not a big problem. But then thats my hobby I guess. 500 dollars means a lot to me hehe.

I priced out a similar machine at Dell to the low-end MacBook Pro and came out at $1651 for the Dell and $2000 for the Apple. The Dell didn't come with the environmentally friendly LED-backlit screen (which also increases battery life and won't degrade over time like the standard Compact Cold Florescent backlights in typical machines). That is normally a $200 upgrade on Dells when they offer it. So you have $1851 vs $2000. I have education and corporate discounts with Apple which brings my price down to $1800. Coupons for Dell's XPS line are usually very hard to come by compared to their low-end lines.

Antivirus programs don't defend you from zero-day attacks.

There is a performance cost to running antivirus and antispyware programs and you see it on bootup and in normal use. The battery life running Windows on my MacBook Pro is considerably less than what it is when running Mac OSX.

Morpheus
02-11-2008, 03:25 AM
has any Mac user here tried out using the Microsoft Office that is compatible for Apple computers? Does it work well? I have heard conflicting opinions so just wondering.

I use it all the time. My work (PC) version is older, so it has different features than my Mac version. I'm not sold on some of the new features, so I actually prefer working in the PC environment for powerpoint. Excel and Word are very similar so I don't really see much difference.

matchpoint
02-11-2008, 07:37 AM
One out of 4 ain't bad, I guess. Office is still used (although there are alternatives) and you can now dual boot into windows (but don't know why you'd want to). But not outlook and explorer. Those aren't even the best on the PC (thunderbird and firefox).

It's funny you would say 1 out 4 and then say Office is still used although there are alternatives. When you start receiving spreadsheet other than excel, document other than word, database other than access, presentation other than powerpoint in your email, let me know so I can take a realllly good look at the alternative you're saying.

And then you say, you can now dual boot into windows, Macs have been dual booting windows since mid-90's. All of the people I know who own Macs uses windows, talk about Mac the supposed to be superior operating system. The only reason why Mac is safe is because virus developers don't even think that it's worthy to waste time developing virus on Macs.

I have friends who uses MS sql on Macs just because Macs per se doesn't really have any useful business application except editing pictures, like you do that in a real business world aside from graphic publications.

movdqa
02-11-2008, 09:01 AM
> It's funny you would say 1 out 4 and then say Office is still used
> although there are alternatives. When you start receiving spreadsheet
> other than excel, document other than word, database other than
> access, presentation other than powerpoint in your email, let me know
> so I can take a realllly good look at the alternative you're saying.

He's probably talking about Open Office and the special Mac variant.
In general, it does a decent job of handling Microsoft Office
documents though it doesn't do a 100% job. I don't know whether
Microsoft Office handles Open Document documents. Some states and
countries have tried to move to Open Document standards with some
amount of difficulty due to lobbyists.

> And then you say, you can now dual boot into windows, Macs have been
> dual booting windows since mid-90's.

Mac users can currently run Windows programs using a Virtual Machine
or via dual-boot. The virtual machine option has been around for a
while given the Virtual PC offering from Microsoft. After Apple went
with Intel processors, users had additional choices in the form of
Parallels and VMWare.

The dual-boot option only arrived when Apple began using Core Duo
chips from Intel (around 2005 or 2006). Prior to that, Apple used
PowerPC chips from IBM - the chip models were the G3, G4 and G5.
Those chips used a RISC design that were hardware-incompatible with
the x86 instruction set.

Users with PowerPC Macs could run Microsoft's Virtual PC to run a
Windows environment though. Virtual Machine support was done through
x86 emulation which was dog-slow. But many users accepted the
tradeoff. When Apple went with Intel chips, the Virtual Machines could
run at near native hardware speeds. This made the Mac platform much
more attractive because one could run the odd Windows program in a
virtual machine. Or run a dual-boot version of Windows.

I'm not aware of a release of Microsoft's retail operating systems
that will run Windows on the PowerPC platform natively. I did some
development work on Windows NT for RISC platforms that supported the
DEC Alpha, IBM Power and one other chip but these platforms all died
pretty quickly. I don't believe that the Apple MacIntosh products were
ever supported by that development kit.

There is some evidence that Apple is working on a kind of Wine support
for Mac OSX. This would be an interesting development in providing
native Windows API support on the Mac.

> All of the people I know who own Macs uses windows, talk about Mac the
> supposed to be superior operating system.

In the real world, most of us need to run the odd Windows application
from time to time. And Microsoft does own a good chunk of Apple. But
I think that one can understand that a carpenter does need more than
just a hammer for his set of tools.

> The only reason why Mac is safe is because virus developers don't even
> think that it's worthy to waste time developing virus on Macs.

Mac users have no problems in taking advantage of being off the radar
screen.

> I have friends who uses MS sql on Macs just because Macs per se
> doesn't really have any useful business application except editing
> pictures, like you do that in a real business world aside from graphic
> publications.

Do you mean MS SQL/Server? They have an Express Edition of that that
you can use for free on Windows. Postgres and MySQL, both open source
databases, are available for Mac OSX. MySQL, recently bought out by
Sun Microsystems, is an extremely popular free database package used
to run PhpBB bulletin boards and web storefronts.

One of the strengths of the Mac OSX platform is that under the covers,
it's just Unix. So porting applications from Unix shouldn't be that
hard.

Morpheus
02-11-2008, 09:25 AM
^^ I was running Photoshop and Office using Parallels, but I found that my computer became unstable in the Windows mode (you have to have both OS's installed). Running Windows also opens up the potential for viruses, so instead of monkeying around with Windows, I just bought the mac versions of these programs.

WBF
02-11-2008, 09:35 AM
movdqa: *Please* use bbcode quotations. It would improve readability of your posts exponentially.

The Platform argument is a pointless. Pick your platform based on your needs and goals. No platform is perfect for everyone. OS X is not an exception. Neither is Windows, Linux, or Unix.

I spend about 1 minute "Maintaining" my XP box every week. Avast pops up a little thing that says "Update available". I click it. It updates in the background. That's all. Never had a virus, never been hacked, never clicked britneyspearsnaked.jpg.bat, never visited microsoft.iwill0wnyou.com. Common sense > OS Differences.

movdqa
02-11-2008, 09:47 AM
> The Platform argument is a pointless. Pick your platform based on your
> needs and goals. No platform is perfect for everyone. OS X is not an
> exception. Neither is Windows, Linux, or Unix.

Many have trouble with figuring out their needs and goals. One can take a
look at the racquets forum to find examples of those looking for the perfect
platform without having to resort to lead tape.

Mac OSX is somewhat of an interesting platform as it comprises the hardware
platform and the operating system. You can easily run several different operating systems on the hardware or software platform and I know people that do this.

> I spend about 1 minute "Maintaining" my XP box every week. Avast pops
> up a little thing that says "Update available". I click it. It updates in the
> background. That's all. Never had a virus, never been hacked, never
> clicked britneyspearsnaked.jpg.bat, never visited microsoft.iwill0wnyou.
> com. Common sense > OS Differences.

I have a dozen systems and have to do the occaissional defrag, spyware scan, av update, Windows update and backup. Avast doesn't take a lot of maintenance. What's annoying is that it slows down the startup process.

WBF
02-11-2008, 09:53 AM
Many have trouble with figuring out their needs and goals. One can take a
look at the racquets forum to find examples of those looking for the perfect
platform without having to resort to lead tape.


Haha, quite true.

PS: You are evil. Responding without bbCode quotes!

movdqa
02-11-2008, 10:02 AM
Haha, quite true.

PS: You are evil. Responding without bbCode quotes!

I wouldn't want to discriminate against LYNX users.

firstservethenvolley
02-11-2008, 10:22 AM
Those who complain about PC's crashing, getting virus's etc just dont know how to use and maintain them properly...

True.

Mac doesn't offer me the freedom my PC does.

Whoever said PCs are ugly needs to look beyond the white mac(which is too plain for me) and look at some of the new notebooks by Sony Vaio, Toshiba, HP, Dell and Alienware.

Feña14
02-11-2008, 02:31 PM
True.

Mac doesn't offer me the freedom my PC does.

Whoever said PCs are ugly needs to look beyond the white mac(which is too plain for me) and look at some of the new notebooks by Sony Vaio, Toshiba, HP, Dell and Alienware.

What sort of freedom is it you like from the PC?

Not picking an argument or anything, just wondering what needs you prefer Windows for :)

mucat
02-11-2008, 02:37 PM
What sort of freedom is it you like from the PC?

Not picking an argument or anything, just wondering what needs you prefer Windows for :)

PC doesn't necessary equal Windows...

The huge amount of hardware choices is a big plus for me.

PC is about choices. Mac is about...cute thing and color...'nuff saying :)

Katlion
02-11-2008, 03:04 PM
Microsoft all the way baby! Apple's too confusing, although their iPods are awesome. So is the iPhone, but it would be better if there was a little pen to tap the sceen with instead of having to use your fingers...

Lakoste
02-11-2008, 03:34 PM
I have a mix of both, and I used to use both about 50/50. Not so much these days though, instead of using my 12" PB when I'm out and about, I now use my Vaio TZ(which I LOVE). For desktops... I use my Mac Pro in combination with my main PC, depending on what I need to do.

Maybe if Apple comes out with a real ultra-portable instead of that Macbook Air BS, I'll check it out.

About Windows vs. OSX, either one is fine with me. I find the whole virus deal on Windows to be blown out of proportion, I don't even use any anti-virus programs (other than to do the monthly scan) and I've been fine for years.

35ft6
02-11-2008, 05:41 PM
Microsoft all the way baby! Apple's too confusing...Never heard this one before. In my experience, Mac is way more intuitive than Windows, way less confusing.

WBF
02-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Never heard this one before. In my experience, Mac is way more intuitive than Windows, way less confusing.

This would probably depend upon one's experience with these environments.

firstservethenvolley
02-11-2008, 07:01 PM
What sort of freedom is it you like from the PC?

Not picking an argument or anything, just wondering what needs you prefer Windows for :)

Oh, a fellow Mourinho fan, Hello! :)

I mean, the first thing is that I can build a PC with minimum funds and add stuff to it later as I have money. Adding hardware is pretty easy.

But for me the most important is that they make all the softwares for Windows. For e.g. My Zeppelin DVD was rotting away, so I needed to rip it to my HDD. I searched online for a ripper and got loads and loads of ripper which were either Freewares or sharewares with limited days. Either way, I got my thing done.

My girlfriend wanted her DVD to be copied and I couldn't find a good ripper for OSX on her Macbook. I later did it on my comp.

In PC , you get a lot of choices on softwares and can pick the best one. Not so much in Macs. I'm accustomed to using both Macs and Windows but prefer Windows due to small subtle things like pathnames, better organized drives, etc.

movdqa
02-11-2008, 07:21 PM
Oh, a fellow Mourinho fan, Hello! :)

I mean, the first thing is that I can build a PC with minimum funds and add stuff to it later as I have money. Adding hardware is pretty easy.

But for me the most important is that they make all the softwares for Windows. For e.g. My Zeppelin DVD was rotting away, so I needed to rip it to my HDD. I searched online for a ripper and got loads and loads of ripper which were either Freewares or sharewares with limited days. Either way, I got my thing done.

My girlfriend wanted her DVD to be copied and I couldn't find a good ripper for OSX on her Macbook. I later did it on my comp.

In PC , you get a lot of choices on softwares and can pick the best one. Not so much in Macs. I'm accustomed to using both Macs and Windows but prefer Windows due to small subtle things like pathnames, better organized drives, etc.

Why didn't you just install Windows on her MacBook? Our MacBook Pros are all dual-boot with Windows.

Feña14
02-11-2008, 08:47 PM
Oh, a fellow Mourinho fan, Hello! :)

I mean, the first thing is that I can build a PC with minimum funds and add stuff to it later as I have money. Adding hardware is pretty easy.

But for me the most important is that they make all the softwares for Windows. For e.g. My Zeppelin DVD was rotting away, so I needed to rip it to my HDD. I searched online for a ripper and got loads and loads of ripper which were either Freewares or sharewares with limited days. Either way, I got my thing done.

My girlfriend wanted her DVD to be copied and I couldn't find a good ripper for OSX on her Macbook. I later did it on my comp.

In PC , you get a lot of choices on softwares and can pick the best one. Not so much in Macs. I'm accustomed to using both Macs and Windows but prefer Windows due to small subtle things like pathnames, better organized drives, etc.

Certainly am a Mourinho fan! What's your Chelsea supporting story? :)

And yeah i've heard quite a few people feeling that way about Windows.
The only thing I don't like about my Mac is the lack of a good MSN messenger. I can communicate with friends and family but not through webcam so I find myself spending time on my windows laptop too.

MegacedU
02-11-2008, 08:48 PM
I'm loving my macbook and I bought it nearly two years ago. The only problem i ever had was a defective battery and they replaced it right away. I'll never go back to PC

Feña14
02-11-2008, 08:50 PM
I'm loving my macbook and I bought it nearly two years ago. The only problem i ever had was a defective battery and they replaced it right away. I'll never go back to PC

Meg, you use MSN.

Which one do you go for? The official one that lacks the camera? Or a clone like aMSN?

What's your experience :)

MegacedU
02-11-2008, 08:52 PM
Meg, you use MSN.

Which one do you go for? The official one that lacks the camera? Or a clone like aMSN?

What's your experience :)

That's inaccurate. I only use it on PC. Ironically enough. I use Yahoo Messenger and AIM. I find my web cam works best with Yahoo.

35ft6
02-11-2008, 08:57 PM
This would probably depend upon one's experience with these environments.When I switched from Windows to Mac, the Mac immediately seemed like it was designed by people who think like me. For me, it wasn't about what I was used to, because I was way more used to Windows when I realized Macs were more intuitive. And I still use both on a daily basis. From the beginning Windows has been copying/borrowing/following the lead of Mac in terms of making the user experience as intuitive as possible, but they've always been several steps behind IMO.

But the pro-Windows people have a point in that PC's are much cheaper, that perhaps the superior functionality of Mac doesn't justify the extra cost. That's a legit point, but for me it is. Plus, I do some home editing, so that's another reason to stick with Mac.

quest01
02-11-2008, 09:14 PM
True.

Mac doesn't offer me the freedom my PC does.

Whoever said PCs are ugly needs to look beyond the white mac(which is too plain for me) and look at some of the new notebooks by Sony Vaio, Toshiba, HP, Dell and Alienware.

I agree not just this but MACs are overpriced. You can buy a PC for less with higher specs then you could with a MAC. PCs also have more hardware and software support and they are better if you are into gaming.

MegacedU
02-11-2008, 09:16 PM
I agree not just this but MACs are overpriced. You can buy a PC for less with higher specs then you could with a MAC. PCs also have more hardware and software support and they are better if you are into gaming.

I spent a little over two grand on my computer and it was the best money i've ever spent. If i'm going to spend any money, I better be getting the best quality product available, and that's what Mac had to offer. No worries of viruses attacking two weeks after purchase.

WBF
02-12-2008, 01:41 AM
I spent a little over two grand on my computer and it was the best money i've ever spent. If i'm going to spend any money, I better be getting the best quality product available, and that's what Mac had to offer. No worries of viruses attacking two weeks after purchase.

Keep in mind this is based on your specific needs. As Lakoste has pointed out, there are myriads of people out there who can operate a PC using only common sense without the remote chance of picking up a virus.

35ft6: It may have been more intuitive to you, but the same cannot be said for everyone. It's good to have the various choices.

Mister G
02-12-2008, 08:17 AM
Thank god. Finally, someone who doesn't have tunnel vision...

mucat
02-12-2008, 08:29 AM
Keep in mind this is based on your specific needs. As Lakoste has pointed out, there are myriads of people out there who can operate a PC using only common sense without the remote chance of picking up a virus.

35ft6: It may have been more intuitive to you, but the same cannot be said for everyone. It's good to have the various choices.

I have no antivirus on my PCs and I am a PC users for 20 yrs now. Over this period, I probably got virus at most 3 times. I remember once in 89, once in 90, and once in 00.

Nowaday, it is pretty difficult to pick up virus if don't go to any suspicious website. Of course, if I go to those website and click on flashing naked girl, my PC will probably be infected in a day.

WBF
02-12-2008, 10:28 AM
I have no antivirus on my PCs and I am a PC users for 20 yrs now. Over this period, I probably got virus at most 3 times. I remember once in 89, once in 90, and once in 00.

Nowaday, it is pretty difficult to pick up virus if don't go to any suspicious website. Of course, if I go to those website and click on flashing naked girl, my PC will probably be infected in a day.

You may have misread my post. I pointed out that there are many people who don't have any issues with viruses, simply by not being idiots. Other people, who enjoy clicking on britneyspearsnaked.jpg.bat and so forth, are not so lucky. These people should either educate themselves and pick a platform of choice, or pick OS X due to the limited number of folks looking to attack this platform.

mucat
02-12-2008, 10:43 AM
You may have misread my post. I pointed out that there are many people who don't have any issues with viruses, simply by not being idiots. Other people, who enjoy clicking on britneyspearsnaked.jpg.bat and so forth, are not so lucky. These people should either educate themselves and pick a platform of choice, or pick OS X due to the limited number of folks looking to attack this platform.

No, I am just providing personal experience to support your post ;)

35ft6
02-12-2008, 12:47 PM
35ft6: It may have been more intuitive to you, but the same cannot be said for everyone.I'm only talking about myself, I think I was being pretty clear on that. But if somebody did an experiment and had children with no previous computer experience use a Mac or Windows, like basic things like installation, moving stuff around, etc, I'd put money on the outcome of the children picking up the ways of Mac quicker than Windows.

35ft6
02-12-2008, 12:49 PM
You may have misread my post. I pointed out that there are many people who don't have any issues with viruses, simply by not being idiots.I don't think people being idiots has much to do with it. The viruses are designed to be discreet, if not invisible, or at the very least, duplicitous.

matchpoint
02-12-2008, 01:13 PM
I spent a little over two grand on my computer and it was the best money i've ever spent. If i'm going to spend any money, I better be getting the best quality product available, and that's what Mac had to offer. No worries of viruses attacking two weeks after purchase.

I spent less than 1K putting up my PC, bought a 37 inch Oleiva LCD TV for 500 dollars last black Friday and I still have money left to buy some PC games and eat in a fancy restaurant. Much much better way of spending 2 grand. Hey just so you Mac guys be happy I bought a Nano with that money too. :mrgreen:

Kevin T
02-12-2008, 02:20 PM
I spent less than 1K putting up my PC, bought a 37 inch Oleiva LCD TV for 500 dollars last black Friday and I still have money left to buy some PC games and eat in a fancy restaurant. Much much better way of spending 2 grand. Hey just so you Mac guys be happy I bought a Nano with that money too. :mrgreen:


Good point. But you're not cool! I mean, Apple has those cool commercials with cool songs and everyone dancing because now they have Apple products! And the colors! In all seriousness, I appreciate Apple and think they make fantastic products but if you're like 90% of people and you use your computer to 1. check email 2. surf the net 3. write a paper or 4 download music, it's stretching to expect me to pay double or triple for a similar machine. If you're working in certain creative industries fine. If you're checking TW and emailng your peeps, nah.

akoni
02-12-2008, 08:04 PM
I spent a little over two grand on my computer and it was the best money i've ever spent. If i'm going to spend any money, I better be getting the best quality product available, and that's what Mac had to offer. No worries of viruses attacking two weeks after purchase.
my $200 linux box has been virus free for five years and my $1200 pc (virus free as well) would surely equal or beat your mac in every benchmark there is. im not saying macs are bad, just that you're paying an extremely high premium for what you get.

meh
02-12-2008, 08:29 PM
I'm only talking about myself, I think I was being pretty clear on that. But if somebody did an experiment and had children with no previous computer experience use a Mac or Windows, like basic things like installation, moving stuff around, etc, I'd put money on the outcome of the children picking up the ways of Mac quicker than Windows.
I'd put my money on Asus' Mandriva variant that they put onto the Eee's.

firstservethenvolley
02-13-2008, 12:00 AM
Why didn't you just install Windows on her MacBook? Our MacBook Pros are all dual-boot with Windows.

And pay extra for the Windows ?

Morpheus
02-13-2008, 03:02 AM
my $200 linux box has been virus free for five years and my $1200 pc (virus free as well) would surely equal or beat your mac in every benchmark there is. im not saying macs are bad, just that you're paying an extremely high premium for what you get.


Well if you can't afford a Mac, why don't you just say so. No one will think less of you.:oops:

movdqa
02-13-2008, 03:49 AM
my $200 linux box has been virus free for five years and my $1200 pc (virus free as well) would surely equal or beat your mac in every benchmark there is. im not saying macs are bad, just that you're paying an extremely high premium for what you get.

Perhaps we could compare the power consumption of my MacBook Pro's LED backlit LCD display against your display.

I use Linux at work and I'm pretty happy with it. But I'd rather not have to deal with the setup and maintenance with it. At work I have staff to take care of that. The Mac OSX platform is popular with developers because you get the Linux or Unix environment without having to deal with setup, maintenance and drivers.

I priced out MacBook Pros against similar hardware from Dell and the MacBook Pro was comparable. For us, the MacBook Pro was actually less than the similar Dell (if the LED backlit screen were available) because of the discounts we have with Apple. I'm not a fan of Apple's desktops outside of the Mac Pro (which is popular at the office), the mini or the servers. I don't like combining the screen and the computer as you're locked in to the whole device.

With laptops, there's a lot of cheap stuff out there but the price goes up pretty quickly with options. In many cases, you're better off going with a mid-priced model instead of starting with a cheap model and building up the options.

One of the guys I know that has a lot of equipment is pretty much settled on Macs now. He has a Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, a few Power Macs and several Sony Vaio laptops. He's done a lot of playing around with various forms Linux on PowerPC and x86 including driver work for Linux variants that didn't have device support for the Sony machines. He's pretty happy leaving the issue of drivers to Apple. His development environment in his New England home is the Mac Pro with dual thirty inch monitors. I don't know what his setup in his other home is.

movdqa
02-13-2008, 03:52 AM
And pay extra for the Windows ?

Sure. Just get a cheap OEM copy of XP. There are lots of people that buy a computer that comes with Vista that then go out and buy a copy of XP when they find out how bad Vista is. It's great for Microsoft as they get two license sales for each machine.

nickb
02-13-2008, 03:53 AM
Perhaps we could compare the power consumption of my MacBook Pro's LED backlit LCD display against your display.

Who cares about the power consumption of a monitor?

....I dont.

movdqa
02-13-2008, 04:01 AM
I'd put my money on Asus' Mandriva variant that they put onto the Eee's.

When you plug in a second and third monitor, does it just work?

One of the things that annoyed me was monitor device drivers. This was a few years ago and I don't know if things are better now but my laptop has a WSXGA display and I was never able to get it to display in its natural resolution as it wasn't offered in the menus. So someone told me to edit the configuration file so I did that but wasn't able to get it to the natural resolution. Sometime, the monitor was in an unusable state so I had to boot to console mode and use vi to fix the configuration file.

Linux has a fair number of funky font issues too. I do engineering work in the open source community and there are just as many headaches there as there are in the private sector. They're just different headaches.

movdqa
02-13-2008, 04:11 AM
Who cares about the power consumption of a monitor?

....I dont.

On a laptop it's very important as it affects how long you can use the machine on battery power. A system designer can choose to use a lighter battery and lower power supply solution or to provide longer battery runtime.

For the last four years, chip designers have been placing a pretty big focus on not only performance but performance per watt. Those running server farms were frustrated at the power and cooling expenses with the NetBurst architecture and were going to AMD K8s when they found that they would get big power savings from the move. Intel came back with Core Duo, Core 2 Duo and process improvements to cut power usage down sharply. My current laptop has an 89 Watt CPU. Newer chips with similar computing power use thirty to forty percent of that. This laptop will run for sixty to ninety minutes on a charge. Our MacBook Pros will run for several times longer on a charge.

Corporations have moved to LCD displays as they use less space, provide a better user experience and use less power. But they do contain hazardous materials and use more power than LED-backlit displays. Greenpeace praised the MacBook Air for being mercury and arsenic free and for incorporating many other environmentally friendly processes in the production of the MacBook Air.

"As a mercury and arsenic free laptop it exceeds European Standards (RoHS directive exemptions) and raises the bar for the rest of the industry," the group said, and added "The BFR and PVC free printed wiring on the motherboard is a big step forward," although eliminating those chemicals completely would be preferable.

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/01/18.2.shtml

WBF
02-13-2008, 04:31 AM
I don't think people being idiots has much to do with it. The viruses are designed to be discreet, if not invisible, or at the very least, duplicitous.

There are several methods of an attacker compromising a PC.

Worst: Exploits. If you run a service accessible through a network, and this service has a vulnerability, an attacker will often have the ability to gain root (administrative) privileges on your computer *without you doing anything at all*. If not right away, then through escalation once they compromise the service. This can happen on any platform. You might hear about this on Windows more due to the increased number of Windows computers around, but it happens on all platforms. It is probably least common on OS X systems. Why? What system would an attacker be interested in? Infrastructure (Unix variants, sometimes Windows), or end-user (Windows the vast, vast majority of the time, particularly in the corporate world, where the fruit is more ripe than the home user world). Keep in mind that individual programs carry this risk, so even if an inherently secure platform were possible (it is not), running a service with a vulnerability on it will open it to exploits.

Everything else that you would need to worry about pretty much requires user intervention; Viruses in particular are *not* invisible. For the most part, common sense will keep you safe. Unfortunately, it is possible, however unlikely, that a perfectly legit looking file could exploit a specific programs vulnerability. One of the more recent instances of this is with Adobe's Acrobat program (PDF files in general actually, I believe this worked against third party readers as well), where a PDF file could actually lead to the compromise of your computer. While these cases certainly exist, it is important to point out that regular program updates and common sense should keep you safe. Receive a PDF file from a random person when you aren't expecting one? Why open it? Reply and ask who it is, or wait until someone contacts you physically to view it.

Anyhow, I will agree that the Windows user is more susceptible to "Everything else". As pointed out above, this is due to the fact that attackers typically want useful information, often found on corporate computers. OS X has far, far, far less penetration in the corporate world, and has thus been less of a target. This does not mean it would be infeasible to construct an incredibly simple script file to open a back door to an Apple computer; this would be ridiculously easy. It simply means that people are far less likely to do this.

Lastly, I should point out that one of the major reasons Windows has been successful (as silly as this sounds) is the amount of backwards compatability they build into their operating systems. Want to run an old (Apple) OS something or other program? Your **** out of luck without emulation, they rehauled the whole thing. Microsoft did not have that luxury (sure, there are incompatabilities, but they are far fewer than with other OS's). This unfortunately adds to the complexity of the operating system, and with complexity comes increased risk and potential vulnerabilities. Regardless, a Windows user with a router using NAT (read: nearly all) and common sense should be perfectly fine. A Windows user with the above, along with a software anti-virus solution will be more than fine. The risk of a virus or other malware should not be a factor in the decision of one's platform unless you are knowingly ignorant to the most basic of computing knowledge.

movdqa
02-13-2008, 05:16 AM
> Worst: Exploits. If you run a service accessible through a network,
> and this service has a vulnerability, an attacker will often have the
> ability to gain root (administrative) privileges on your computer
> *without you doing anything at all*. If not right away, then through
> escalation once they compromise the service. This can happen on any
> platform. You might hear about this on Windows more due to the
> increased number of Windows computers around, but it happens on all
> platforms. It is probably least common on OS X systems. Why? What
> system would an attacker be interested in? Infrastructure (Unix
> variants, sometimes Windows), or end-user (Windows the vast, vast
> majority of the time, particularly in the corporate world, where the
> fruit is more ripe than the home user world). Keep in mind that
> individual programs carry this risk, so even if an inherently secure
> platform were possible (it is not), running a service with a
> vulnerability on it will open it to exploits.

I'd guess that it's even less common on VMS which is still in wide use
today. The advantages of running a 27-year-old operating systems
that's primarily character-cell based and not a Unix variant is that
it doesn't look like a commonly used operating system. It runs on
fairly uncommon hardware architectures too making it hard to fashion
machine-language level attacks. There might still be some PDP-11s
around running RSTS or RSX or RT11 that would be even more obscure.

> Everything else that you would need to worry about pretty much
> requires user intervention; Viruses in particular are *not*
> invisible. For the most part, common sense will keep you
> safe. Unfortunately, it is possible, however unlikely, that a
> perfectly legit looking file could exploit a specific programs
> vulnerability. One of the more recent instances of this is with
> Adobe's Acrobat program (PDF files in general actually, I believe this
> worked against third party readers as well), where a PDF file could
> actually lead to the compromise of your computer. While these cases
> certainly exist, it is important to point out that regular program
> updates and common sense should keep you safe. Receive a PDF file from
> a random person when you aren't expecting one? Why open it? Reply and
> ask who it is, or wait until someone contacts you physically to view
> it.

The Sony Rootkit debacle showed that you could install something that
was pretty hard to see. New hardware and software that you buy can
come preloaded with viruses. One of the big hard-drive makers had this
problem with drive from China recently. You might get something on your
system just bringing it into the country.

If you want to be sure about documents that you receive, you can always
just create a VM as a disposable operating system to check potentially
dangerous documents.

> Anyhow, I will agree that the Windows user is more susceptible to
> "Everything else". As pointed out above, this is due to the fact that
> attackers typically want useful information, often found on corporate
> computers. OS X has far, far, far less penetration in the corporate
> world, and has thus been less of a target. This does not mean it would
> be infeasible to construct an incredibly simple script file to open a
> back door to an Apple computer; this would be ridiculously easy. It
> simply means that people are far less likely to do this.

Nothing wrong with security through obscurity.

> Lastly, I should point out that one of the major reasons Windows has
> been successful (as silly as this sounds) is the amount of backwards
> compatability they build into their operating systems. Want to run an
> old (Apple) OS something or other program? Your **** out of luck
> without emulation, they rehauled the whole thing. Microsoft did not
> have that luxury (sure, there are incompatabilities, but they are far
> fewer than with other OS's). This unfortunately adds to the complexity
> of the operating system, and with complexity comes increased risk and
> potential vulnerabilities. Regardless, a Windows user with a router
> using NAT (read: nearly all) and common sense should be perfectly
> fine. A Windows user with the above, along with a software anti-virus
> solution will be more than fine. The risk of a virus or other malware
> should not be a factor in the decision of one's platform unless you
> are knowingly ignorant to the most basic of computing knowledge.

Windows has broken a fair amount of compatibility with their x64
variants. I think that you'll find compatibility is sorely lacking
in their products that support Itanium too.

There are vulnerabilities through wireless routers as the TJ Maxx hack
demonstrated. Routers are just computers and have bugs too. How many
people out there do firmware updates on their routers? In addition,
security schemes that depend on current computing power can prove weak
as computing power grows.

I do know of engineers and scientists that have problems with viruses
in their systems. These can come in via their kids or spouses or guests
that use their systems. They can get infected on networks that they
connect to through operating system vulnerabilities. Empiracal data
from my circle of friends indicates that malware issues drop sharply
when going to an all Mac OSX solution.

I do wish that HP would port VMS to x86.

WBF
02-13-2008, 05:32 AM
Uhhhhhg. Don't even bring up the disgusting TJX scenario. That just breaks my heart. They ****ing ran WEP, and they did not segregate this network from their intranet. The reason TJX systems were compromised was due to using WEP. HOME users shouldn't even use WEP! This was a security policy and protocol issue, not an exploit of the router. I hope they get farking REAMED for this massive security breach.

The Sony Rootkit issue and hard drives from China have nothing to do with Windows inherently, apart from the fact that Windows was targetted due to the number of users. The same exact thing could happen to Unix variants... Hell, where do you think (real) rootkits began!

I do agree with you that if you have kids or other less knowledgable users who will use the computer that you are at risk. This seems fairly obvious, and doesn't refute the fact that compromise is still due to ignorance (these other users, or the owner in allowing them to use the system without education or precautions).

movdqa
02-13-2008, 07:47 AM
> Uhhhhhg. Don't even bring up the disgusting TJX scenario. That just breaks my
> heart. They ****ing ran WEP, and they did not segregate this network from their
> intranet. The reason TJX systems were compromised was due to using WEP. HOME
> users shouldn't even use WEP! This was a security policy and protocol issue, not
> an exploit of the router. I hope they get farking REAMED for this massive security
> breach.

The Sony Rootkit issue and hard drives from China have nothing to do with Windows inherently, apart from the fact that Windows was targetted due to the number of users. The same exact thing could happen to Unix variants... Hell, where do you think (real) rootkits began!

I do agree with you that if you have kids or other less knowledgable users who will use the computer that you are at risk. This seems fairly obvious, and doesn't refute the fact that compromise is still due to ignorance (these other users, or the owner in allowing them to use the system without education or precautions).[/QUOTE]

> Uhhhhhg. Don't even bring up the disgusting TJX scenario. That just
> breaks my heart. They ****ing ran WEP, and they did not segregate this
> network from their intranet. The reason TJX systems were compromised
> was due to using WEP. HOME users shouldn't even use WEP! This was a
> security policy and protocol issue, not an exploit of the router. I
> hope they get farking REAMED for this massive security breach.

This case was a policy problem but you can exploit routers too. I
spoke with a guy who was an ex-network security engineer that did
vulnerability testing on networks and he had access to processes and
hardware to penetrate wireless networks.

> The Sony Rootkit issue and hard drives from China have nothing to do
> with Windows inherently, apart from the fact that Windows was
> targetted due to the number of users. The same exact thing could
> happen to Unix variants... Hell, where do you think (real) rootkits
> began!

The hard drives from China use a common format. Use a different format
and require that the disk be formatted and you get rid of the problem.
Or ensure quality control from one vendor and you're less likely to
have the problem. And if you do have a problem, you have one vendor to
go to for a remedy.

On the rootkit issue, the Mac version of Sony DRM requires the user to
go through an installation procedure that the user can opt out of. The
Windows version installs XCP when the user attempts to play the CD.
The user has to enter the username and password (to get elevated
privileges I assume). I think that you don't get full system
privileges on the Mac by default and that you have to use SUDO or
enter your system account username and password to install many kinds
of software. Windows does have different privilege levels available
but the default account has full privileges so that a user that starts
up a new system has full privileges and can more easily shoot
themselves in the foot. The Mac (or Unix) approach where you have
fewer privileges by default where you can elevate them if needed
compared to the Windows approach where you have everything by default
appears to me to be a better approach. Not only that, but you have
to choose to setup an account with lower privileges if you want to
run in lower a lower privilege mode by default. If you then need the
higher privilege level, you have to log into the other account.

I always liked the VMS approach where you can grant individual
privileges to individual users or groups of users. And where you can
hang access control lists off of objects for more fine-grained
security.

> I do agree with you that if you have kids or other less knowledgable
> users who will use the computer that you are at risk. This seems
> fairly obvious, and doesn't refute the fact that compromise is still
> due to ignorance (these other users, or the owner in allowing them to
> use the system without education or precautions).

There are people that don't care to learn and that need to use systems
for some aspects of their daily lives. And those people need something
better. It's not that we really can't engineer something better.

This doesn't solve the problem of the homeland security guy asking you
for your laptop when you come into the country and then asking you for
your username and password to anything on your system that they'd care
to poke around with. There's a good case for just having a minimal kernel
with vi, latex and lynx on it to manage your documents.

-----

One thing on home networking: I started with B and now I'm on G and N. I still have lots of B gear and had to explain to my wife about upgrading the network to G. She wondered why we couldn't reuse some of our B gear and I just said security. When you go into a Panera Bread for free wireless, they typically have B. Your best bet for security is probably to use VPN into a secure environment where you can work but not everyone has access to such an environment. I imagine that people sell B gear on eeebeigh or craigslist and that people buy it to get wireless running on the cheap. That's one of the realities of security today.

WBF
02-13-2008, 08:06 AM
One thing on home networking: I started with B and now I'm on G and N. I still have lots of B gear and had to explain to my wife about upgrading the network to G. She wondered why we couldn't reuse some of our B gear and I just said security. When you go into a Panera Bread for free wireless, they typically have B. Your best bet for security is probably to use VPN into a secure environment where you can work but not everyone has access to such an environment. I imagine that people sell B gear on eeebeigh or craigslist and that people buy it to get wireless running on the cheap. That's one of the realities of security today.

Wireless security is not tied to the underlying 802.11 specification. The only connection is that these old routers may not have the option for certain protocols or standards. A retail giant such as TJX ran a protocol that was known to be completely broken while protecting the wireless segment of their network, which happened to be where customer information was stored (vs. segregating the wireless segment to the DMZ or even outside of this). Think of it like this: It would be akin to leaving a computer out on the retail floor, with the records of millions of customers credit card numbers/names, and many SSN from return transactions, with only a small password protection. Oh, and the password is widely available online. And the computer isn't being monitored. Selecting the WEP protocol was MORE ignorant than my example. WEP being a broken standard was not secret.

There are people that don't care to learn and that need to use systems
for some aspects of their daily lives. And those people need something
better. It's not that we really can't engineer something better.


This is like someone who cooks for themselves or a family regularly saying something along the lines of: I don't care about learning about what foods might be poisonous. I don't care about learning what materials shouldn't be left near the stove burners. I don't care about knowing whether or not I should leave the gas running without igniting it first. These, and lacking the minimum knowledge necessary to prevent accidentally infecting your computer through your own actions, are unacceptable, and ignorant.

PS: I agree with you on the Unix variants having more suitable security in terms of privileges. The problem with Windows is not inherent, it is due to poor default settings.

movdqa
02-13-2008, 08:26 AM
This is like someone who cooks for themselves or a family regularly saying something along the lines of: I don't care about learning about what foods might be poisonous. I don't care about learning what materials shouldn't be left near the stove burners. I don't care about knowing whether or not I should leave the gas running without igniting it first. These, and lacking the minimum knowledge necessary to prevent accidentally infecting your computer through your own actions, are unacceptable, and ignorant.

PS: I agree with you on the Unix variants having more suitable security in terms of privileges. The problem with Windows is not inherent, it is due to poor default settings.

Pizza Hut
McDonalds
Burger King
Wendys
Kentucky Fried Chicken
Inspecting your tires once a week
Stopping at stop signs
Texting while driving
Putting on makeup while driving
Drinking and driving
Drugs
Teenage pregnancies
Students plagiarizing off the web (as if Profs can't use the web)

-------------

The thing about Windows is that it's heritage is VMS. Dave Cutler took the DEC Western Research Labs crew with him to Microsoft and built Windows NT. Basically add one letter to VMS to get WNT. The rumors are that Windows NT has a very strong heritage from VMS. Obviously lots of things didn't come over.

I don't see an easy way to fix the default settings issue with the current Windows privilege model as you wind up with the complexity of multiple accounts that the user has to deal with. The user that wants simplicity will just do everything out of the privileged account. That's the beauty of the elevated privilege model - convenience.

isuk@tennis
02-13-2008, 12:01 PM
wow mac have led backlight lcds now?
what did the runtime increase from

movdqa
02-13-2008, 12:04 PM
wow mac have led backlight lcds now?
what did the runtime increase from

They introduced them in the 15 inch MacBook Pros last summer. They reportedly add 30 minutes to battery charge life. I don't know whether they've put it in the 17 inch MBP or the regular MacBooks.

nickb
02-13-2008, 01:06 PM
> Worst: Exploits. If you run a service accessible through a network,
> and this service has a vulnerability, an attacker will often have the
> ability to gain root (administrative) privileges on your computer
> *without you doing anything at all*. If not right away, then through
> escalation once they compromise the service. This can happen on any
> platform. You might hear about this on Windows more due to the
> increased number of Windows computers around, but it happens on all
> platforms. It is probably least common on OS X systems. Why? What
> system would an attacker be interested in? Infrastructure (Unix
> variants, sometimes Windows), or end-user (Windows the vast, vast
> majority of the time, particularly in the corporate world, where the
> fruit is more ripe than the home user world). Keep in mind that
> individual programs carry this risk, so even if an inherently secure
> platform were possible (it is not), running a service with a
> vulnerability on it will open it to exploits.

I'd guess that it's even less common on VMS which is still in wide use
today. The advantages of running a 27-year-old operating systems
that's primarily character-cell based and not a Unix variant is that
it doesn't look like a commonly used operating system. It runs on
fairly uncommon hardware architectures too making it hard to fashion
machine-language level attacks. There might still be some PDP-11s
around running RSTS or RSX or RT11 that would be even more obscure.

> Everything else that you would need to worry about pretty much
> requires user intervention; Viruses in particular are *not*
> invisible. For the most part, common sense will keep you
> safe. Unfortunately, it is possible, however unlikely, that a
> perfectly legit looking file could exploit a specific programs
> vulnerability. One of the more recent instances of this is with
> Adobe's Acrobat program (PDF files in general actually, I believe this
> worked against third party readers as well), where a PDF file could
> actually lead to the compromise of your computer. While these cases
> certainly exist, it is important to point out that regular program
> updates and common sense should keep you safe. Receive a PDF file from
> a random person when you aren't expecting one? Why open it? Reply and
> ask who it is, or wait until someone contacts you physically to view
> it.

The Sony Rootkit debacle showed that you could install something that
was pretty hard to see. New hardware and software that you buy can
come preloaded with viruses. One of the big hard-drive makers had this
problem with drive from China recently. You might get something on your
system just bringing it into the country.

If you want to be sure about documents that you receive, you can always
just create a VM as a disposable operating system to check potentially
dangerous documents.

> Anyhow, I will agree that the Windows user is more susceptible to
> "Everything else". As pointed out above, this is due to the fact that
> attackers typically want useful information, often found on corporate
> computers. OS X has far, far, far less penetration in the corporate
> world, and has thus been less of a target. This does not mean it would
> be infeasible to construct an incredibly simple script file to open a
> back door to an Apple computer; this would be ridiculously easy. It
> simply means that people are far less likely to do this.

Nothing wrong with security through obscurity.

> Lastly, I should point out that one of the major reasons Windows has
> been successful (as silly as this sounds) is the amount of backwards
> compatability they build into their operating systems. Want to run an
> old (Apple) OS something or other program? Your **** out of luck
> without emulation, they rehauled the whole thing. Microsoft did not
> have that luxury (sure, there are incompatabilities, but they are far
> fewer than with other OS's). This unfortunately adds to the complexity
> of the operating system, and with complexity comes increased risk and
> potential vulnerabilities. Regardless, a Windows user with a router
> using NAT (read: nearly all) and common sense should be perfectly
> fine. A Windows user with the above, along with a software anti-virus
> solution will be more than fine. The risk of a virus or other malware
> should not be a factor in the decision of one's platform unless you
> are knowingly ignorant to the most basic of computing knowledge.

Windows has broken a fair amount of compatibility with their x64
variants. I think that you'll find compatibility is sorely lacking
in their products that support Itanium too.

There are vulnerabilities through wireless routers as the TJ Maxx hack
demonstrated. Routers are just computers and have bugs too. How many
people out there do firmware updates on their routers? In addition,
security schemes that depend on current computing power can prove weak
as computing power grows.

I do know of engineers and scientists that have problems with viruses
in their systems. These can come in via their kids or spouses or guests
that use their systems. They can get infected on networks that they
connect to through operating system vulnerabilities. Empiracal data
from my circle of friends indicates that malware issues drop sharply
when going to an all Mac OSX solution.

I do wish that HP would port VMS to x86.

I would read it but my eyes are hurting right now...

meh
02-13-2008, 01:10 PM
When you plug in a second and third monitor, does it just work?

One of the things that annoyed me was monitor device drivers. This was a few years ago and I don't know if things are better now but my laptop has a WSXGA display and I was never able to get it to display in its natural resolution as it wasn't offered in the menus. So someone told me to edit the configuration file so I did that but wasn't able to get it to the natural resolution. Sometime, the monitor was in an unusable state so I had to boot to console mode and use vi to fix the configuration file.

Linux has a fair number of funky font issues too. I do engineering work in the open source community and there are just as many headaches there as there are in the private sector. They're just different headaches.
Oh, my comment was a response to 35ft6's comment about which interface would be easiest to pick up for a child. Just my 2c, I really think the Eee Mandriva is stupid easy to perform basic tasks in.

I'd love to run a Mac, but I'm not willing to shell out the cash. For me, the seamlessness of running preconfigured, proprietary software isn't worth the cost. Linux has a few headaches here and there, but I've been running it exclusively for my home use for over the last two years. It's definitely growing on me, and I've found that the more I use it, the more I use CLI to get things done. I think its overall power outweighs the obstacles you may face during setup.

In any case, I'd sooner run *NIX (be it OS X or Linux) than Windows. I've hardly looked back.

bagung
02-13-2008, 01:13 PM
apple all the way....
window is "window of virues"..

Zhou
02-13-2008, 01:20 PM
I personally enjoy using a mac. It is much more user friendly.

isuk@tennis
02-13-2008, 04:40 PM
I love apple products because they look great!! beautiful design and all but this article cracks me up
It Just works (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant)

and one for ipods (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone)

akoni
02-13-2008, 07:06 PM
Well if you can't afford a Mac, why don't you just say so. No one will think less of you.:oops:
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist, justifying that your hard earned money was well spent. face it, you spent $2000 just to stay virus free, when heck even a $500 mac mini would've accomplished the same. you spent $2000 to have a notebook with better battery life than a dell of similar specs, when you could've bought that dell and an extra battery with that $2000. once again, i'm not saying macs are bad, they're great machines with a great os, just pretty overpriced.

Swissv2
02-13-2008, 07:08 PM
No but I wish it were true. Microsoft is truly one of the WORST corporations in the world. Everything they do is substandard (their email, game system, you name it). They make their money by stealing from others PS2 Apple etc and then using monopolistic tactics to maintain market share.

The government should not let them takeover Yahoo. For years they have been trying to get Yahoo to charge for email so they could charge too.


Even if they did take over yahoo, MS would still have a horrible search engine.

isuk@tennis
02-13-2008, 09:19 PM
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist,

of course, mac is the best if you don't buy it you can't afford it:twisted:

don't you dare try to make them realize that a free os can be as stable or secure

firstservethenvolley
02-13-2008, 09:47 PM
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist, justifying that your hard earned money was well spent. face it, you spent $2000 just to stay virus free, when heck even a $500 mac mini would've accomplished the same. you spent $2000 to have a notebook with better battery life than a dell of similar specs, when you could've bought that dell and an extra battery with that $2000. once again, i'm not saying macs are bad, they're great machines with a great os, just pretty overpriced.

The battery on my Dell runs for 6 and a half hours. Dell gave me a free upgrade from the normal 6 celled to a 9 celled battery when I bought it and plus gave a 250 dollars discount. Hell yeah!

movdqa
02-14-2008, 03:10 AM
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist, justifying that your hard earned money was well spent. face it, you spent $2000 just to stay virus free, when heck even a $500 mac mini would've accomplished the same. you spent $2000 to have a notebook with better battery life than a dell of similar specs, when you could've bought that dell and an extra battery with that $2000. once again, i'm not saying macs are bad, they're great machines with a great os, just pretty overpriced.

The low-end Mac Mini is $699. It comes with a 1.83 Ghz Merom processor. The lowend MacBook Pro is $1,999. It comes with a 2.2 Ghz Merom processor. The difference at Dell's site is $125. The Mac Mini comes with an 80 GB disk. The MacBook Pro comes with a 120 GB disk. The MacBook Pro comes with 2 GB of RAM, expandable to 4 GB. The Mini comes with 1 GB of RAM expandable to 2 GB.

The MacBook Pro comes with speakers (pretty nice for a laptop too), a backlit LED screen, lit keyboard, trackpad, camera, battery, charger with mag-safe connection, the Santa Rosa chipset, smartcard slot, wireless and BlueTooth.

If you go to the Apple site and configure the Mini with 2 GB of RAM, keyboard, mouse, bigger disk and screen, you come to $1,500.

Mister G
02-14-2008, 04:31 AM
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist

+1

of course, mac is the best if you don't buy it you can't afford it:twisted:

:roll:

Mister G
02-14-2008, 04:34 AM
Keep at it Steve. Wondering what your commission rate is...

nickb
02-14-2008, 04:40 AM
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist

Yep so true...

Speak to anybody that owns a mac and they go on trying to justify why its better than windows and how their money was well spent.....they got ripped off.

Nearly everybody on this planet uses Windows....for a good reason. I would never, ever buy a mac. I dont waste money. Yes macs look great but thats about it.

WBF
02-14-2008, 04:55 AM
Apple computers are not a waste of money. They are worth it for the people who they suite best. I will never purchase one, but I can fully admit that it is a great platform for certain people, based on their needs and goals.

I have to admit though, Mac fanatics are some of the most obnoxious folks on the internet.

isuk@tennis
02-14-2008, 05:18 AM
:roll:

if you couldn't tell i was being sarcastic:-?

movdqa
02-14-2008, 06:20 AM
isuk@tennis:

> don't you dare try to make them realize that a free os can be as
> stable or secure

I like Linux too. They would become more popular if they could solve the
problems with drivers, user interface and maintenance.

firstservethenvolley:

> The battery on my Dell runs for 6 and a half hours. Dell gave me a
> free upgrade from the normal 6 celled to a 9 celled battery when I
> bought it and plus gave a 250 dollars discount. Hell yeah!

What's the model number and configuration? I'm a big fan of Dell
products with 6 of their computers in my household.

Are you running Vista with Aero turned on? They recommend a discrete
graphics card with 256 MB of RAM for decent performance and high-end
notebook graphics cards can chew up a fair amount of power.

nickb:

> Speak to anybody that owns a mac and they go on trying to justify why
> its better than windows and how their money was well spent.....they
> got ripped off.

You made an assertion and then a comment. With no evidence to your
point. Perhaps a dollar and feature comparison of Apple products vs
Dell or HP products would show you that your position is wrong. Or
maybe even right. For high-end laptops, Apple offers good value. In
some cases, their products are less in similar configurations. I
don't like the concept of the iMac as I like to be able to configure
my monitors and desktops in a flexible way.

> Nearly everybody on this planet uses Windows

Do you have the statistics to back this up? Why was there so much
interest in Negroponte's organization?

> ....for a good reason.

And those reasons are....

> I would never, ever buy a mac.

I'm old enough to avoid comments like this. One of the benefits of
using the Power chips before Apple went to Intel chips was their
vector engine. Another was better floating point performance. These
two things are useful in scientific applications. But integer
performance is more important to the typical desktop user.

> I dont waste money.

At some level of career experience, you figure out that time is
money. Or you have enough money so that you can trade time for
money. When you get older and you realize your mortality, time becomes
exponentially more valuable.

> Yes macs look great but thats about it.

MIT's OpenCourseWare project makes available course lectures from a
selection of their courses and they provide Physics I, II and III
lectures from Walter Lewin who is a pretty engaging professor. MIT OCW
provides syllabi, lecture notes, textbook informatio and sometimes
homework problems and exams. Walter Lewin uses a MacBook Pro.

Berkeley puts out about 50 courses on video per semester. What
platform would you guess is dominant with professors? Why would
professors pick Apples over Macs? Are they impressed by the great
looks?

Perhaps a visit to http://rateyourstudents.blogspot.com/ would dispel
you of those thoughts.


WBF:

> Apple computers are not a waste of money. They are worth it for the
> people who they suite (sic) best. I will never purchase one, but I can
> fully admit that it is a great platform for certain people, based on
> their needs and goals.

My son has a CS professor and you get a zero on the assignment if
there's any indication that you did the homeworks and projects on a
Windows machine. One of my nieces had a professor like this in her CS
course last semester. Yes, I could have installed dual-boot Linux on
his Dell Vostro but I would have needed another disk and would have
had to go through the trouble of doing the Linux installation.

> I have to admit though, Mac fanatics are some of the most obnoxious
> folks on the internet.

I guess that many folks need to resort to ad hominem arguments to
support their positions when they can't argue on the merits.

WBF
02-14-2008, 06:37 AM
WBF:

> Apple computers are not a waste of money. They are worth it for the
> people who they suite (sic) best. I will never purchase one, but I can
> fully admit that it is a great platform for certain people, based on
> their needs and goals.

My son has a CS professor and you get a zero on the assignment if
there's any indication that you did the homeworks and projects on a
Windows machine. One of my nieces had a professor like this in her CS
course last semester. Yes, I could have installed dual-boot Linux on
his Dell Vostro but I would have needed another disk and would have
had to go through the trouble of doing the Linux installation.

Virtualization might have worked. That's what I use for courses requiring the use of Unix environments. Those professors are asinine. I would not tolerate that, unless the course was specifically focusing on the Unix environment.

> I have to admit though, Mac fanatics are some of the most obnoxious
> folks on the internet.

I guess that many folks need to resort to ad hominem arguments to
support their positions when they can't argue on the merits.

This wasn't an attack on people who like Macs in general, or people who would call themselves Mac fans. This was pointing out that Mac fanatics are annoying. People like this:

apple all the way....
window is "window of virues"..

There aren't quite as many on this board as... It's a tennis board. You will find them in droves across the internet though. I certainly wasn't referring to you, you seem to be more informed than some.

With that said: Linux "maintenance" isn't too bad these days, depending on your hardware. On a side note, I should mention that certain hardware is still a major issue ... having to use the CLI and vague internet guides to get a broadcom wireless NIC working? fking ridiculous; also, my old computer couldn't even get to the install screen of Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, etc. due to incompatibilities with my motherboard or chipset. Uhg. Apart from these issues which are relatively few and far between, Linux has made some great strides. It certainly has a ways to go, but it's not exactly a hassle.

movdqa
02-14-2008, 07:27 AM
> Virtualization might have worked.

I tried a virtualization experiment on my desktop (Dell E521) using
Virtual PC and was disappointed with the level of integration with the
main operating system. Microsoft obviously doesn't want to encourage
Linux VMs on Windows but the experience running a Windows VM on
Windows is much better.

On my laptop (four-year-old Presario), I run Windows XP x64 edition
and use a Windows XP Home VM as our office has a custom VPN solution
that doesn't provide support for Windows XP x64. That solution works
rather well but it consumes a fair amount of memory. Some of the local
development stuff that I do runs to 1.6 GB of RAM and I'd have to
close the VM if I were doing builds as the machine only has 2 GB of
RAM. I choose not to use pagefiles for performance reasons.

I wanted a solution that I knew would work (he's done earlier courses
on a PowerMac G5), and that I could also use for development when he
isn't using it.

> That's what I use for courses requiring the use of Unix environments.

I've tried on and off to setup a Unix Mozilla build environment and
it's the hardest platform of the big three to setup for. Mac and
Windows are a piece of cake compared to Linux.

> Those professors are asinine. I would not tolerate that, unless the
> course was specifically focusing on the Unix environment.

I think that it's a completely reasonable requirement in a computer
science program. There are many benefits to working in a lowest common
denominator learning environment. My work environment is Linux and
there are many engineers here that work naturally using vi, emacs,
gdb, etc. Having a student learning on Visual Studio and then going
into a job where everything is character-cell based is a rude
awakening.

A lot of CS students have no clue about how windowing systems work or
how the hardware works but these you tend to see in weaker CS
programs.

> There aren't quite as many on this board as... It's a tennis
> board. You will find them in droves across the internet though. I
> certainly wasn't referring to you, you seem to be more informed than
> some.

There are some good technical advantages that Mac OSX has over
Windows. One additional one is that OSX is 64-bit now and you can
make use of the additional general purpose registers and vector
registers on your chip. The 64-bit mode of Intel chips gives you
64-bit native operations, eight additional general purpose registers
and eight additional vector registers. The x86 architecture in 32-bit
mode is notorious for register pressure resulting in excess stack
movement.

On Windows, you have to purchase the 64-bit variant of the operating
system. The problem with using Windows x64 is similar to the Linux
problem - drivers. Microsoft (I'll credit Dave Cutler) did a great job
engineering the operating system. But a poor job in marketing and in
getting hardware manufacturers to provde 64-bit drivers. x64 also
dumps 16-bit mode compatibility. Mac OSX apparently has some mechanism
so that drivers aren't a problem. Perhaps they use some kind of shell
to interface between 32-bit and 64-bit applications.

If I want to do 64-bit development on Linux, running a Linux VM under
32-bit Windows isn't going to get the job done.

> With that said: Linux "maintenance" isn't too bad these days,
> depending on your hardware. On a side note, I should mention that
> certain hardware is still a major issue ... having to use the CLI
> and vague internet guides to get a broadcom wireless NIC working?
> fking ridiculous; also, my old computer couldn't even get to the
> install screen of Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, etc. due to
> incompatibilities with my motherboard or chipset. Uhg. Apart from
> these issues which are relatively few and far between, Linux has
> made some great strides. It certainly has a ways to go, but it's
> not exactly a hassle.

I run into the same driver issues on Windows x64. One of my desktops
had Intel VIIV chips (Intel's multimedia platform that bombed) so I
couldn't use the integrated ethernet and sound. I had to go out and
buy net and sound PCI cards for that functionality. It kind of goes
with the territory. At some point, Microsoft is going to have to bite
the bullet and go with Windows x64 as the main platform which is going
to result in a fair bit of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Microsoft
has not executed well on the OS stuff for the last four years.
Security problems have hampered their execution of course. But
Microsoft is known for superb execution and it was strange to see their
weak performance this century.

I'm trying to get some code into a big open-source project right now
so I know a bit more about open source software on the development
side than most people that only use the stuff. Linux clearly has
various issues to resolve in terms of ease-of-use, GUI, drivers, etc.

In the old days, we loaded up an address using toggle switches to boot
computers. Or used punched cards to run programs. I don't remember what
we had to do with single-board computers like the ELF and KIM. I never
played with the original Apple SBC though I read a lot about it.

isuk@tennis
02-14-2008, 07:33 AM
movdga:
linux is never going to be mainstream, and easy to use like apple. that's reality but im not arguing which is superior to others. linux is after all a workstation/server based OS not alot of functionality for the end user. other than the occasional program a coder wanted to write.

just that some mac/fanboys use that mac is stable argument to death it gets annoying.

i wish PC companies would use LED tech in their flatpanels if it increased batterytime up to 30mins

movdqa
02-14-2008, 07:40 AM
movdga:
linux is never going to be mainstream, and easy to use like apple. that's reality but im not arguing which is superior to others. linux is after all a workstation/server based OS not alot of functionality for the end user. other than the occasional program a coder wanted to write.

just that some mac/fanboys use that mac is stable argument to death it gets annoying.

i wish PC companies would use LED tech in their flatpanels if it increased batterytime up to 30mins

There are a lot of apps for Linux but the GUIs are usually an afterthought.

A lot of applications run off the web these days and you can do quite a bit through a decent browser.

The Mac is a very nice hardware platform. It runs Windows quite nicely. And I've read that it makes for a very nice Linux platform too. The operating system, Mac OSX, is very stable and usable. It's the first real platform to prove that you can have a good UI on a Unix variant and that a company can make a profit on that combination.

I think that Sony was using LED backlit screens before Apple came out with them. Dell announced them on one of their XPS notebooks and then removed the option. I haven't checked HP's LCD options. Right now, the screens are typically a $200 option and they're probably expensive as adoption rates are low. As they become more popular, manufacturing costs should go down so that they can be available in more models. It's not only laptop screens but regular LCD screens. Your larger (24 inch) LCD monitors can use up a lot of power too. It's less than CRTs of the same size but the heat is noticeable.

Mister G
02-14-2008, 09:35 AM
if you couldn't tell i was being sarcastic:-?

Ah my bad :)

@WBF: Mac fanatics like movdqa?

Where were you guys when we had the whole windows/mac notebook thread ages ago? You should've seen some of the sh*t the Mac fanatics *hint hint* were spewing out...

movdqa
02-14-2008, 10:53 AM
Ah my bad :)

@WBF: Mac fanatics like movdqa?

Where were you guys when we had the whole windows/mac notebook thread ages ago? You should've seen some of the sh*t the Mac fanatics *hint hint* were spewing out...

Me, a Mac fanatic? Hardly. They make great notebooks. But I buy Dell for desktops. Try to get your lies straight.

Morpheus
02-14-2008, 12:26 PM
uhhhhh ok :confused: the typical response of a mac elitist, justifying that your hard earned money was well spent. face it, you spent $2000 just to stay virus free, when heck even a $500 mac mini would've accomplished the same. you spent $2000 to have a notebook with better battery life than a dell of similar specs, when you could've bought that dell and an extra battery with that $2000. once again, i'm not saying macs are bad, they're great machines with a great os, just pretty overpriced.

Just yanking your chain. BTW, I don't have a Mac Notebook. I have a Dell laptop. My desktops are Macs and, yes, I really enjoy not having to spend time maintaining my network.

Mister G
02-14-2008, 12:53 PM
Me, a Mac fanatic? Hardly. They make great notebooks. But I buy Dell for desktops. Try to get your lies straight.

Calling me a liar again are we Pinocchio?

http://i29.tinypic.com/27wslj8.jpg

movdqa
02-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Calling me a liar again are we Pinocchio?

http://i29.tinypic.com/27wslj8.jpg

Try to get your lies and false accusation straight.

> And just when I thought you would stay quiet so we can end this thread
> in a peaceful matter.... you had come out of the bushes and spew your
> BS and **** me off again. Why do you insist on running around in
> circles? I counter your point, you say "prove it". I prove it, you say
> "prove it"... round and round we go, are you having fun?

Perhaps you could ask yourself your question. And then you could ask
yourself why you don't have the self-control to follow-through on what
you've said that you would do:

> You can reply and post random semi-related links all day, I wont
> bother replying to them anymore because I've counter posted almost
> everything you said and you just come back with "ad hominem".

>> It isn't hocus pocus. All you have to do is learn modern reasoning.The
>> book that I suggested earlier provides a good start.
> Posting articles non-related to topic at hand isnt
> reasoning. Especially when they support your biased opinions.

Actually it is. You'll find it in Introduction to Logic by Copi. Or
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding by John Locke.

>> Simplicity usually implies brevity.
> Yet another one of your useless comments, nothing to follow through
> with but your philosophical banter.

At least you're getting shorter with your insults.

>> I never said this. Please state where I said that I need to maintain
>> my PC 48 hours a week.
> How many times have I asked you if you spent NOTORIOUS amounts of time
> maintaining your PC?

I give up. How many times did you ask? Did I respond with the amount
of time that I personally spend? Or did I post articles on studies on
the maintenance costs of PCs vs Macs? I don't recall posting any time
figures on maintenance costs of PCs or Macs.

> How many times have you admitted it yourself?

I posted no time measures so I guess your answer is zero.

> You EXAGGERATED, so did I. Learn to put 2 and 2 together.

I didn't exxagerate. You picked a number out of your hat.

>> I don't spend 48 hours a week nor 15 hours a day maintaining my PCs.
> So NOW you deny spending time on maintaining your PCs? Or do you admit
> that you were exaggerating? When previously stating that you DO, you
> didnt DENY anything but instead said: "Oh now you admit PCs take tons
> of maintenance time?" Hypocrisy at its best.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

If you drew a Venn Diagram with data points of spending 28 hours a week
maintaining PCs, spending 15 hours a day maintaining PCs and spending
zero hours on maintaining PCs, I think that you'd find that there were
potential cases outside your trinary conundrum.

>> I've provided article after article on the maintenance costs of PCs
>> based on surveys of IT professionals. You've provided only your
>> personal opinion.
> Let me say this again - I never denied PCs require more maintenance
> than Macs, get that through your very thick skull and skin for that
> matter. That has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are clearly
> biased.. Read post #60.

Your statement is false on its face. If I were biased, I wouldn't have
only 2 Macs and 8 PCs. As I've often stated, I pick the best hardware
and software for the intended purpose.

>> PCs are the default.
> Good comment there. :roll:

Thanks.

>> Strawman. Please state where I said that "Windows blows
>> chunks". Windows does have higher maintenance costs - documented
>> several times. I don't own a Mac Pro so you're wrong there.
> Once again you fail to understand my point. Have you said anything
> GOOD about Windows? No. You've done nothing to say how terrible it
> is.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

> Which one can say, that you think it sucks, i.e. blows chunks. Dont
> play word games with me now, grow up. Oh, you own a MacBOOK Pro. I'm
> sorry :roll:

I own 8 Windows systems. My latest purchase was a Dell Vostro. If I
thought that "Windows blows chunks", I wouldn't have such a high ratio
of Windows machines to Macs nor would my last machine be a Windows
machine. If you walked up to someone on the street and they made a
case for the MacBook Pro but had 8 Windows desktops, do you think that
they'd prefer Mac/OSX or Windows? Now I stated that I have a copy of
Windows running on the MacBook Pro. And I explained the different ways
that one could install Windows on a MacBook Pro to coexist with Mac
OSX. If I thought that Windows was really that bad, why would I have
bothered to do that?

>> As I wrote before, you said that there were only two types of users. I
>> contradicted that. That you cannot see this implies a gross defect in
>> reasoning.
> You contradicted that by agreeing that your wife is one of the users?
> Mac user = specialist user (i.e. one who knows what hes doing) or
> "dumb" user. You along with your "world-class engineers" the former,
> the wife the latter. How is that "defect" in reasoning?

You said that there were only two types of users. Here's one of them.

>>> People who either know what they are doing and need a professional
>>> platform for graphic/audio work.

Note your conjunction.

There are more than two types. That's pretty simple, isn't it? Your
statement says that one of the types requires one to need a
professional platform for graphics/audio work. There are many out
there that need a platform for engineering work that don't fall into
either of your categories.

>> I demonstrated that they are for more than two types of people. Simple
>> logic.
> What other types? Apart from specialist and "dumb" which pretty much
> cover everything? Unless you use your Mac as a toaster? Do tell us.

You are apparently changing your position from what you originally
wrote. Is this an admission that what you previously wrote is
incorrect?

>> It is a response to a personal attack. A personal attack is no
>> argument. And that is why one replies Argumentum Ad Hominem. Because
>> the other person said nothing.
> Funny how you seem to think your "clever" insulting isnt insulting.
> Calling someone else an idiot is the same thing as saying they are
> genetically incapable of being smart in this context. So stop playing
> word games.

Strawman.

>> Why do you think Karl deletes posts withname-calling in them?
> Exactly for the reason I said just 15 seconds ago. Insults are
> insults. I just happen to be more blunt.

So your earlier paranoid post was untrue?

>> Non-responsive.
> As expected.

Non-responsive.

>> "How much does it cost to maintain Windows and Mac OS X? Since Apple
>> has released five times as many major updates and over fifteen times
>> as many minor updates to Mac OS X since 2000, you might not have
>> guessed that Windows actually costs users five times as much to keep
>> up to date!
> Interesting point when really my updates dont cost me a thing.

My updates cost me time. And those mandatory ones which reboot your
machine for you are really annoying. Read the whole article for the
details on costs.

>> Yes. This is what I indicated. I've done thousands of Windows
>> installations and do know a little about the process.
> Which would explain why it took you "hours" to remove the 100 programs
> that came with your HP laptop.

I work in software development. Part of software development is
installation testing. You take a bunch of machines and engineers and
run installation and validation of your products to clean up any
installation problems. A lot of that has been automated today but
in the old days, we did a lot of that by hand.

>> No you can't. The hardware vendors provide drivers on the preinstalled
>> image. If you install from a standalone Windows CD, you have to find
>> and install the drivers yourself. This is what makes Apple's Boot Camp
>> so nice. They automate the driver process for you.
> Drivers are on the CD. Which means its there, that was my point. Not
> that the whole process was automatic.

Some drivers are on the Windows installation CD. Dell typically ships
additional driver disks for hardware that doesn't come on the Windows
CD. If you have new devices in your system, you might have to go to
the vendor's website to find drivers.

>> But you're still wrong about the Windows Repair Disk. If you only
>> damage one or a few Windows OS files, you can use the Windows CD
>> to do a repair installation. This just fixes the broken files.
> Which goes back to your point that the Win recovery doesnt do its job
> right? Didnt think so.

You still don't understand how the Windows Repair installation works.
The Windows Repair Installation is used for fixing a small number of
files. This can be far faster than using a full image backup and
rollforward.

>> You don't have to reinstall all of your programs and
>> restore your data from backup. As I wrote before, you don't seem to
>> know what a repair install is.

> Err.. sorry to burst your bubble once again but I already knew this. I
> was assuming (to my fault) that we were talking about a full
> format/restore.

The point that I originally made was that HP doesn't provide recover
disks. They require you to make them. Even if you do make them, you
can't do a Windows Repair Installation. If you want to recover, you
have to recover from a full backup or a full backup + incremental
restore.

Dell provides the Windows CDs and CDs for the installation of
additional software and drivers. And this is one of the reasons as to
why I prefer Dell.

movdqa
02-14-2008, 04:10 PM
> How am I not surprised. You couldn't list them because you didnt have
> 100 or so programs as you said. You were clearly exaggerating, what
> else is new.

Simply one of your oft-repeated and untrue assertions.

>> If you have proof of this, please provide it.
> Grow up. If your computer really did come with 100 programs as you
> STATED. List them and PROVE it. You made an OBNOXIOUS statement, and I
> asked you to prove it. Now you are turning around and telling me to
> prove that you DONT have it? Whats wrong with you... List the 100
> programs and prove me wrong. Simple solution for you. Unless of course
> you were exaggerating... uh oh. *

Nothing wrong with me. You're just unreasonable.

>> With HP, this is not possible. They do not provide the installation
>> disks. This is why I recommend purchasing from Dell. You seem to have
>> a hard time comprehending this simple matter.
> Irrelevant. Now you divert the topic at hand and make another
> irrelevant point about formatting when really Im asking you for a very
> simple answer.

You kept telling me that I didn't understand the situation regarding
backup and now you call your point irrelevant?

>> I think that tag belongs to you.
> Says the "Worlds best programmer" or whatever you called yourself -
> who cant replace a faulty PSU on his 18month old computer. Oh
> dear... the irony.

Please point out where I said that I'm the world's best programmer. I
never made such a claim. Your assertion that I can't replace a faulty
Power Supply is false.

>> I think that you're referring to BigServer1. I've been very pleased
>> with the quality of products from Dell.
> No. It was you sorry. How convenient for you that that post containing
> those exact words have been zapped. You did say those exact words, I'm
> more than certain.

Your posts were zapped. I don't think that my posts back there were
zapped. At any rate, you should still have them in your email.

>> That's right, you have to spend all your time building new systems.
> Argumentum ad hominem.

I wasn't making an argument.

>> If you feel misquoted, please post what you actually wrote.
> Not exactly possible when the posts have been erased is it?

Then you shouldn't make the claim.

>> No. I believe that I should be able to pick and choose my own hobbies
>> and do what I enjoy doing and that I should be able to outsource
>> everything else.
> Exactly. So dont tell me to go and build an OS. Not everyone spends 30
> years in the IT/computing business like you. Such arrogancy.

So don't go telling me to build my own system. Funny that you can't see
that point.

>> Perhaps you can understand that others out there are not particular
>> interested in spending their time building systems because they have
>> other passions and things that they want to do in life.

> *And perhaps you can understand that a PC based machine is absoutely
> managable, even to the everyday user,

There was a study done on the average time that a PC is online before
getting hit with a network threat and the time period was quite short.
So if you didn't have the correct updates, security software, etc.
installed, your machine could get infected just by hooking it up to
the internet. It helps to have a firewall but that doesn't help those
that use dialup.

We have an IT staff at work and they deal with viruses, spyware and
all kinds of threats in addition to configuring systems and fixing
hardware problems. Just about everyone, from time to time, requires
a little help from the IT staff with their systems. And sometimes
a lot of help is required. Particularly when systems get infected.

> and that they dont necessarily have to build it if they dont wish to
> do so. Most people in fact, dont!

Yes, I stated this several times.

> You even say you love your new Dell, but oh, Windows is terrible, it
> costs so much to maintain and update.. What are you running on it if
> may I ask?

I didn't say that I love my new Dell. It meets the needs of its
intended purpose.

Please state where I said that Windows is terrible.

I stated that maintenance costs were higher than Mac systems.

I'm running Windows XP Home on the system.

> The reason why I brought up this whole build your own PC topic, was
> because you seem to claim you are the expert, and experts who want the
> best (like you say you do) build their stuff, they dont buy it
> pre-made for the mass commercial user (which you say you clearly
> arent) How many more contradictions will you make on here?

I purchased a Dell Vostro. Anyone familiar with Dell's product line
would know that it is a low-end system. I buy systems to meet needs
and I buy the best systems to meet those needs. That's about as
unbiased as you can get. The contradictions are a figment of your
imagination.

> You claim you are not arrogant?
> You claim you are not "I am a superior" Mac user?

Please provide a basis for your assertations.

>> So why do you continue posting here?
> Continusouly ****ging off PCs (admittedly mostly Microsoft and Vista)
> Not saying one good thing about them, apart from YOUR OWN Dell?

My own Dells. All six of them. I wrote that I'm happy with my HP laptop too.
Not happy with the desktops though. That's about as unbiased as it comes.

>> Even after I openly stated that they are more reliable and stable
>> machines?
> This is NOT a Mac VS PC thread. Get that through your head.

What was the thread topic again? MacBook vs Windows machine.

> And get that list of 100 programs that your HP came with... otherwise
> dont bother replying because we will all find out that you were truly
> exaggerating your claims, just like you do with half of your other
> comments about the PC. Prove me wrong, please.*

Non sequitur.

>> I'm the best in the world at build 64-bit release versions of Windows
>> Firefox and Thundebird.
> Thank you for reassuring us.

So you were wrong in your assertion.

>> You seem to be rather argumentative despite how you portray yourself.
> I'm not the type of person to give up especially when I know I'm
> right. If that makes me argumentative, so be it...

Interesting. You said that you were not going to post again but yet
here you are posting again.

>> The issues you bring up are really not issues at all.
> Your exaggerating comments are issues, especially when they affect the
> choices of others people that are perhaps not-so informed about PCs
> and Macs.

I think that the original poster would have done fine without your
comments.

>> Name-calling is a sign of disrespect to your fellow board-members.
> Sorry fellow, I lost all respect for you once you started dodging your
> own words so thats not really an issue anymore.

It's a sign to of disrespect to all board-members.

>> BTW, can't you even do what you're going to say that you're going to do?
> Like I said (before it got deleted) this thread was to die in peace
> until you came yapping here again trolling like you do... You
> initiated my defense yet again, so here I am.

No, that's not what you said. I can pull it back if you really want to
read it again. At any rate, the longest thread in argumentation that I've
been in lasted for about a year with thousands of posts.

> *Once again, you cant even answer my question, you cant even come up
> with the proof you need, to just end this rather distasteful
> conversation. Just shows how unbelievable you really are. You know
> you were wrong, yet you cant admit it... smoke and mirrors all the way
> through. Thanks for proving my point once again. Much appreciated :)*

You seem to think that I care about your questions.

Tour 90
02-14-2008, 05:06 PM
Mac users always have the arguement that it gets no viruses, neither my HP desktop nor my dell laptop have ever had a problem... No real difference to me at all actually...

akoni
02-14-2008, 06:27 PM
Just yanking your chain. BTW, I don't have a Mac Notebook. I have a Dell laptop. My desktops are Macs and, yes, I really enjoy not having to spend time maintaining my network.

ya i know, hahaha. honestly, i think mac osx is a fantastic os. if i could have the best of both worlds and run mac osx flawlessly on pc hardware and be able to update that hardware to the extent i do with my windows pc, i would go with that setup in a heartbeat. instead i go with the second best option, run windows for the sake of playing games and running apps which run best on windows and using ubuntu (or other linux variant) for all my other needs.

Kevin T
02-15-2008, 10:18 AM
Mac users like to put Apple stickers on their Subarus. They also tend to wear Keen footwear and also put "Impeach Bush" stickers on their cars. C'mon, tell me I'm lying. :)

matchpoint
02-15-2008, 12:04 PM
ya i know, hahaha. honestly, i think mac osx is a fantastic os. if i could have the best of both worlds and run mac osx flawlessly on pc hardware and be able to update that hardware to the extent i do with my windows pc, i would go with that setup in a heartbeat. instead i go with the second best option, run windows for the sake of playing games and running apps which run best on windows and using ubuntu (or other linux variant) for all my other needs.

Hahaha you're funny, so you run windows for the sake of playing games and run apps which run best on windows and using ubuntu (or other linux variant) for all my other needs which leaves Macs pretty much for editing pictures and downloading music. That's so funny and you have to spend thousands of dollars for that because you're worried you're going to get virus, that's hilarious.

Trainer
02-15-2008, 12:14 PM
My son has a CS professor and you get a zero on the assignment if
there's any indication that you did the homeworks and projects on a
Windows machine. One of my nieces had a professor like this in her CS
course last semester.

Not sure what point this makes. Those professors are idiots.

CGMemphis
02-15-2008, 12:33 PM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/CGClone/macros/2-sept-05-catcopy.jpg

Mister G
02-15-2008, 03:01 PM
Blah blah yadda yadda

And you actually think anyone is going to bother reading that, you fool... :rolleyes:

Of course, I didn't expect any other response from you since you cant admit that you were caught in your own trail of verbal diarrhea... You were so desperate to conjure up BS you couldnt even remember, just to have some shred of so-called evidence in your arguement. :lol:

Pictures say a 1000 words... and my my.. oh here it is again!

http://i29.tinypic.com/27wslj8.jpg

akoni
02-15-2008, 08:58 PM
Hahaha you're funny, so you run windows for the sake of playing games and run apps which run best on windows and using ubuntu (or other linux variant) for all my other needs which leaves Macs pretty much for editing pictures and downloading music. That's so funny and you have to spend thousands of dollars for that because you're worried you're going to get virus, that's hilarious.
:confused:i use a pc that dual boots vista and ubuntu. windows for games, ms office, etc. and ubuntu for daily web browsing, email, and other daily computer tasks. my windows setup has been virus free since the day it was installed and i simply use ubuntu because its a more rewarding experience. i don't get where you are getting the idea i spent thousands of dollars? my C2D setup running with an 8800gt 512 has cost me less than 1000 bucks.

firstservethenvolley
02-15-2008, 09:24 PM
firstservethenvolley:

> The battery on my Dell runs for 6 and a half hours. Dell gave me a
> free upgrade from the normal 6 celled to a 9 celled battery when I
> bought it and plus gave a 250 dollars discount. Hell yeah!

What's the model number and configuration? I'm a big fan of Dell
products with 6 of their computers in my household.

Are you running Vista with Aero turned on? They recommend a discrete
graphics card with 256 MB of RAM for decent performance and high-end
notebook graphics cards can chew up a fair amount of power.



Yeah, I run Windows Vista. Used to run XP on my home PC but run Vista on my Dell Vostro1500. Got it fairly cheap considering the configurations. I have a Nvidia GeForce memory card which is 256 MB but runs shared with my RAM upto 383 MB(not sure, though).

MY computer is mostly in my room, so it's pretty much always plugged in but when it's out I don't run it in the highest performance mode(which will give 4 hrs and 10-15 minutes of battery) but run it in the balanced mode and that'll take me to about 6 and a half hours without having to plug in.

movdqa
02-16-2008, 05:16 AM
[QUOTE=Mister G;2093288]And you actually think anyone is going to bother reading that, you fool... :rolleyes:

Of course, I didn't expect any other response from you since you cant admit that you were caught in your own trail of verbal diarrhea... You were so desperate to conjure up BS you couldnt even remember, just to have some shred of so-called evidence in your arguement. :lol:

Pictures say a 1000 words... and my my.. oh here it is again!


> And just when I thought you would stay quiet so we can end this thread
> in a peaceful matter.... you had come out of the bushes and spew your
> BS and **** me off again. Why do you insist on running around in
> circles? I counter your point, you say "prove it". I prove it, you say
> "prove it"... round and round we go, are you having fun?

Perhaps you could ask yourself your question. And then you could ask
yourself why you don't have the self-control to follow-through on what
you've said that you would do:

> You can reply and post random semi-related links all day, I wont
> bother replying to them anymore because I've counter posted almost
> everything you said and you just come back with "ad hominem".

>> It isn't hocus pocus. All you have to do is learn modern reasoning.The
>> book that I suggested earlier provides a good start.
> Posting articles non-related to topic at hand isnt
> reasoning. Especially when they support your biased opinions.

Actually it is. You'll find it in Introduction to Logic by Copi. Or
An Essay Concerning Human Understanding by John Locke.

>> Simplicity usually implies brevity.
> Yet another one of your useless comments, nothing to follow through
> with but your philosophical banter.

At least you're getting shorter with your insults.

>> I never said this. Please state where I said that I need to maintain
>> my PC 48 hours a week.
> How many times have I asked you if you spent NOTORIOUS amounts of time
> maintaining your PC?

I give up. How many times did you ask? Did I respond with the amount
of time that I personally spend? Or did I post articles on studies on
the maintenance costs of PCs vs Macs? I don't recall posting any time
figures on maintenance costs of PCs or Macs.

> How many times have you admitted it yourself?

I posted no time measures so I guess your answer is zero.

> You EXAGGERATED, so did I. Learn to put 2 and 2 together.

I didn't exxagerate. You picked a number out of your hat.

>> I don't spend 48 hours a week nor 15 hours a day maintaining my PCs.
> So NOW you deny spending time on maintaining your PCs? Or do you admit
> that you were exaggerating? When previously stating that you DO, you
> didnt DENY anything but instead said: "Oh now you admit PCs take tons
> of maintenance time?" Hypocrisy at its best.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

If you drew a Venn Diagram with data points of spending 28 hours a week
maintaining PCs, spending 15 hours a day maintaining PCs and spending
zero hours on maintaining PCs, I think that you'd find that there were
potential cases outside your trinary conundrum.

>> I've provided article after article on the maintenance costs of PCs
>> based on surveys of IT professionals. You've provided only your
>> personal opinion.
> Let me say this again - I never denied PCs require more maintenance
> than Macs, get that through your very thick skull and skin for that
> matter. That has NOTHING to do with the fact that you are clearly
> biased.. Read post #60.

Your statement is false on its face. If I were biased, I wouldn't have
only 2 Macs and 8 PCs. As I've often stated, I pick the best hardware
and software for the intended purpose.

>> PCs are the default.
> Good comment there. :roll:

Thanks.

>> Strawman. Please state where I said that "Windows blows
>> chunks". Windows does have higher maintenance costs - documented
>> several times. I don't own a Mac Pro so you're wrong there.
> Once again you fail to understand my point. Have you said anything
> GOOD about Windows? No. You've done nothing to say how terrible it
> is.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

> Which one can say, that you think it sucks, i.e. blows chunks. Dont
> play word games with me now, grow up. Oh, you own a MacBOOK Pro. I'm
> sorry :roll:

I own 8 Windows systems. My latest purchase was a Dell Vostro. If I
thought that "Windows blows chunks", I wouldn't have such a high ratio
of Windows machines to Macs nor would my last machine be a Windows
machine. If you walked up to someone on the street and they made a
case for the MacBook Pro but had 8 Windows desktops, do you think that
they'd prefer Mac/OSX or Windows? Now I stated that I have a copy of
Windows running on the MacBook Pro. And I explained the different ways
that one could install Windows on a MacBook Pro to coexist with Mac
OSX. If I thought that Windows was really that bad, why would I have
bothered to do that?

>> As I wrote before, you said that there were only two types of users. I
>> contradicted that. That you cannot see this implies a gross defect in
>> reasoning.
> You contradicted that by agreeing that your wife is one of the users?
> Mac user = specialist user (i.e. one who knows what hes doing) or
> "dumb" user. You along with your "world-class engineers" the former,
> the wife the latter. How is that "defect" in reasoning?

You said that there were only two types of users. Here's one of them.

>>> People who either know what they are doing and need a professional
>>> platform for graphic/audio work.

Note your conjunction.

There are more than two types. That's pretty simple, isn't it? Your
statement says that one of the types requires one to need a
professional platform for graphics/audio work. There are many out
there that need a platform for engineering work that don't fall into
either of your categories.

>> I demonstrated that they are for more than two types of people. Simple
>> logic.
> What other types? Apart from specialist and "dumb" which pretty much
> cover everything? Unless you use your Mac as a toaster? Do tell us.

You are apparently changing your position from what you originally
wrote. Is this an admission that what you previously wrote is
incorrect?

>> It is a response to a personal attack. A personal attack is no
>> argument. And that is why one replies Argumentum Ad Hominem. Because
>> the other person said nothing.
> Funny how you seem to think your "clever" insulting isnt insulting.
> Calling someone else an idiot is the same thing as saying they are
> genetically incapable of being smart in this context. So stop playing
> word games.

Strawman.

>> Why do you think Karl deletes posts withname-calling in them?
> Exactly for the reason I said just 15 seconds ago. Insults are
> insults. I just happen to be more blunt.

So your earlier paranoid post was untrue?

>> Non-responsive.
> As expected.

Non-responsive.

>> "How much does it cost to maintain Windows and Mac OS X? Since Apple
>> has released five times as many major updates and over fifteen times
>> as many minor updates to Mac OS X since 2000, you might not have
>> guessed that Windows actually costs users five times as much to keep
>> up to date!
> Interesting point when really my updates dont cost me a thing.

My updates cost me time. And those mandatory ones which reboot your
machine for you are really annoying. Read the whole article for the
details on costs.

movdqa
02-16-2008, 05:17 AM
>> Yes. This is what I indicated. I've done thousands of Windows
>> installations and do know a little about the process.
> Which would explain why it took you "hours" to remove the 100 programs
> that came with your HP laptop.

I work in software development. Part of software development is
installation testing. You take a bunch of machines and engineers and
run installation and validation of your products to clean up any
installation problems. A lot of that has been automated today but
in the old days, we did a lot of that by hand.

>> No you can't. The hardware vendors provide drivers on the preinstalled
>> image. If you install from a standalone Windows CD, you have to find
>> and install the drivers yourself. This is what makes Apple's Boot Camp
>> so nice. They automate the driver process for you.
> Drivers are on the CD. Which means its there, that was my point. Not
> that the whole process was automatic.

Some drivers are on the Windows installation CD. Dell typically ships
additional driver disks for hardware that doesn't come on the Windows
CD. If you have new devices in your system, you might have to go to
the vendor's website to find drivers.

>> But you're still wrong about the Windows Repair Disk. If you only
>> damage one or a few Windows OS files, you can use the Windows CD
>> to do a repair installation. This just fixes the broken files.
> Which goes back to your point that the Win recovery doesnt do its job
> right? Didnt think so.

You still don't understand how the Windows Repair installation works.
The Windows Repair Installation is used for fixing a small number of
files. This can be far faster than using a full image backup and
rollforward.

>> You don't have to reinstall all of your programs and
>> restore your data from backup. As I wrote before, you don't seem to
>> know what a repair install is.

> Err.. sorry to burst your bubble once again but I already knew this. I
> was assuming (to my fault) that we were talking about a full
> format/restore.

The point that I originally made was that HP doesn't provide recover
disks. They require you to make them. Even if you do make them, you
can't do a Windows Repair Installation. If you want to recover, you
have to recover from a full backup or a full backup + incremental
restore.

Dell provides the Windows CDs and CDs for the installation of
additional software and drivers. And this is one of the reasons as to
why I prefer Dell.

> How am I not surprised. You couldn't list them because you didnt have
> 100 or so programs as you said. You were clearly exaggerating, what
> else is new.

Simply one of your oft-repeated and untrue assertions.

movdqa
02-16-2008, 05:17 AM
>> If you have proof of this, please provide it.
> Grow up. If your computer really did come with 100 programs as you
> STATED. List them and PROVE it. You made an OBNOXIOUS statement, and I
> asked you to prove it. Now you are turning around and telling me to
> prove that you DONT have it? Whats wrong with you... List the 100
> programs and prove me wrong. Simple solution for you. Unless of course
> you were exaggerating... uh oh. *

Nothing wrong with me. You're just unreasonable.

>> With HP, this is not possible. They do not provide the installation
>> disks. This is why I recommend purchasing from Dell. You seem to have
>> a hard time comprehending this simple matter.
> Irrelevant. Now you divert the topic at hand and make another
> irrelevant point about formatting when really Im asking you for a very
> simple answer.

You kept telling me that I didn't understand the situation regarding
backup and now you call your point irrelevant?

>> I think that tag belongs to you.
> Says the "Worlds best programmer" or whatever you called yourself -
> who cant replace a faulty PSU on his 18month old computer. Oh
> dear... the irony.

Please point out where I said that I'm the world's best programmer. I
never made such a claim. Your assertion that I can't replace a faulty
Power Supply is false.

>> I think that you're referring to BigServer1. I've been very pleased
>> with the quality of products from Dell.
> No. It was you sorry. How convenient for you that that post containing
> those exact words have been zapped. You did say those exact words, I'm
> more than certain.

Your posts were zapped. I don't think that my posts back there were
zapped. At any rate, you should still have them in your email.

>> That's right, you have to spend all your time building new systems.
> Argumentum ad hominem.

I wasn't making an argument.

>> If you feel misquoted, please post what you actually wrote.
> Not exactly possible when the posts have been erased is it?

Then you shouldn't make the claim.

>> No. I believe that I should be able to pick and choose my own hobbies
>> and do what I enjoy doing and that I should be able to outsource
>> everything else.
> Exactly. So dont tell me to go and build an OS. Not everyone spends 30
> years in the IT/computing business like you. Such arrogancy.

So don't go telling me to build my own system. Funny that you can't see
that point.

>> Perhaps you can understand that others out there are not particular
>> interested in spending their time building systems because they have
>> other passions and things that they want to do in life.

> *And perhaps you can understand that a PC based machine is absoutely
> managable, even to the everyday user,

There was a study done on the average time that a PC is online before
getting hit with a network threat and the time period was quite short.
So if you didn't have the correct updates, security software, etc.
installed, your machine could get infected just by hooking it up to
the internet. It helps to have a firewall but that doesn't help those
that use dialup.

We have an IT staff at work and they deal with viruses, spyware and
all kinds of threats in addition to configuring systems and fixing
hardware problems. Just about everyone, from time to time, requires
a little help from the IT staff with their systems. And sometimes
a lot of help is required. Particularly when systems get infected.

> and that they dont necessarily have to build it if they dont wish to
> do so. Most people in fact, dont!

Yes, I stated this several times.

> You even say you love your new Dell, but oh, Windows is terrible, it
> costs so much to maintain and update.. What are you running on it if
> may I ask?

I didn't say that I love my new Dell. It meets the needs of its
intended purpose.

Please state where I said that Windows is terrible.

I stated that maintenance costs were higher than Mac systems.

I'm running Windows XP Home on the system.

> The reason why I brought up this whole build your own PC topic, was
> because you seem to claim you are the expert, and experts who want the
> best (like you say you do) build their stuff, they dont buy it
> pre-made for the mass commercial user (which you say you clearly
> arent) How many more contradictions will you make on here?

I purchased a Dell Vostro. Anyone familiar with Dell's product line
would know that it is a low-end system. I buy systems to meet needs
and I buy the best systems to meet those needs. That's about as
unbiased as you can get. The contradictions are a figment of your
imagination.

> You claim you are not arrogant?
> You claim you are not "I am a superior" Mac user?

Please provide a basis for your assertations.

>> So why do you continue posting here?
> Continusouly ****ging off PCs (admittedly mostly Microsoft and Vista)
> Not saying one good thing about them, apart from YOUR OWN Dell?

My own Dells. All six of them. I wrote that I'm happy with my HP laptop too.
Not happy with the desktops though. That's about as unbiased as it comes.

>> Even after I openly stated that they are more reliable and stable
>> machines?
> This is NOT a Mac VS PC thread. Get that through your head.

What was the thread topic again? MacBook vs Windows machine.

> And get that list of 100 programs that your HP came with... otherwise
> dont bother replying because we will all find out that you were truly
> exaggerating your claims, just like you do with half of your other
> comments about the PC. Prove me wrong, please.*

Non sequitur.

>> I'm the best in the world at build 64-bit release versions of Windows
>> Firefox and Thundebird.
> Thank you for reassuring us.

So you were wrong in your assertion.

>> You seem to be rather argumentative despite how you portray yourself.
> I'm not the type of person to give up especially when I know I'm
> right. If that makes me argumentative, so be it...

Interesting. You said that you were not going to post again but yet
here you are posting again.

>> The issues you bring up are really not issues at all.
> Your exaggerating comments are issues, especially when they affect the
> choices of others people that are perhaps not-so informed about PCs
> and Macs.

I think that the original poster would have done fine without your
comments.

>> Name-calling is a sign of disrespect to your fellow board-members.
> Sorry fellow, I lost all respect for you once you started dodging your
> own words so thats not really an issue anymore.

It's a sign to of disrespect to all board-members.

>> BTW, can't you even do what you're going to say that you're going to do?
> Like I said (before it got deleted) this thread was to die in peace
> until you came yapping here again trolling like you do... You
> initiated my defense yet again, so here I am.

No, that's not what you said. I can pull it back if you really want to
read it again. At any rate, the longest thread in argumentation that I've
been in lasted for about a year with thousands of posts.

> *Once again, you cant even answer my question, you cant even come up
> with the proof you need, to just end this rather distasteful
> conversation. Just shows how unbelievable you really are. You know
> you were wrong, yet you cant admit it... smoke and mirrors all the way
> through. Thanks for proving my point once again. Much appreciated :)*

You seem to think that I care about your questions.

movdqa
02-16-2008, 05:20 AM
Not sure what point this makes. Those professors are idiots.

It's not about making a point. It's about equipping students with the skills, talents and abilities to think, go into research or make a decent living. It's about teaching computer science; not teaching one to be a computer technician.

WBF
02-16-2008, 07:30 AM
It's not about making a point. It's about equipping students with the skills, talents and abilities to think, go into research or make a decent living. It's about teaching computer science; not teaching one to be a computer technician.

Not really. Are you going to tell me that every development unit these students could end up working for will be using a Unix environment? ********. It's one thing to encourage students to familiarize themselves with the various platforms they could end up using in the real world, but to assign a '0' for working on a platform that *is* used in the real world is just being a pedantic *** hole. He is doing exactly what you say he should not. He is focusing on minute issues such as the platform, instead of what he should be teaching at the university level.

movdqa
02-16-2008, 08:05 AM
> Not really. Are you going to tell me that every development unit these
> students could end up working for will be using a Unix environment?

Strawman fallacy.

> It's one thing to encourage students to familiarize themselves with the
> various platforms they could end up using in the real world, but to assign a
> '0' for working on a platform that *is* used in the real world is just being a
> pedantic *** hole. He is doing exactly what you say he should not. He is
> focusing on minute issues such as the platform, instead of what he should
> be teaching at the university level.

Computer Science is about mathematics as much as it is about programming. Perhaps the mathematics is or should be more than the programming. Using C instead of Java gets you closer to the machine so that assembler or computer organization won't seem incredibly foreign.

If you learn in Unix, the transition to working in Windows is trivial. Especially given tools like cygwin. If you've grown up on Developer Studio, learning how to use GDB can be quite a shock.

If you're talking about an IT or IS degree, then that's a different story.

Mister G
02-17-2008, 05:21 AM
Uh oh, here we go with the strawman tactic...

Morpheus
02-17-2008, 06:02 AM
I have no antivirus on my PCs and I am a PC users for 20 yrs now. Over this period, I probably got virus at most 3 times. I remember once in 89, once in 90, and once in 00.

Nowaday, it is pretty difficult to pick up virus if don't go to any suspicious website. Of course, if I go to those website and click on flashing naked girl, my PC will probably be infected in a day.

In an article today, Google warns that the internet is not a safe place, and that your risk of infection is only slightly higher if you go to adult oriented sites than normal everyday sites. "Drive by" downloads are very common and the bad guys are getting very good at turning a legit web site malicious.

They note that merely staying away from the sleazy part of the web is not good enough; hence, your approach may not be as effective today as it was over the past "20" years. Here's the link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/142574;_ylt=At6d0CihQAEMrGc8jOtUbuEDW7oF

movdqa
02-17-2008, 07:33 AM
In an article today, Google warns that the internet is not a safe place, and that your risk of infection is only slightly higher if you go to adult oriented sites than normal everyday sites. "Drive by" downloads are very common and the bad guys are getting very good at turning a legit web site malicious.

They note that merely staying away from the sleazy part of the web is not good enough; hence, your approach may not be as effective today as it was over the past "20" years. Here's the link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/142574;_ylt=At6d0CihQAEMrGc8jOtUbuEDW7oF

The new problems are legit websites getting compromised.

I read about a new problem yesterday - infected digital picture frames.

An insidious computer virus recently discovered on digital photo frames has been identified as a powerful new Trojan Horse from China that collects passwords for online games - and its designers might have larger targets in mind.

"It is a nasty worm that has a great deal of intelligence," said Brian Grayek, who heads product development at Computer Associates, a security vendor that analyzed the Trojan Horse.

The virus, which Computer Associates calls Mocmex, recognizes and blocks antivirus protection from more than 100 security vendors, as well as the security and firewall built into Microsoft Windows. It downloads files from remote locations and hides files, which it names randomly, on any PC it infects, making itself very difficult to remove. It spreads by hiding itself on photo frames and any other portable storage device that happens to be plugged into an infected PC.

...

While some advise disabling Autorun in Windows, which allows devices to run automatically when they're plugged into a USB port, it's not a failsafe. Doing so requires some computer expertise, and this Trojan re-enables Autorun if it's turned off, according to Brian Grayek of Computer Associates. "If you plug in (the frame), you're already infected," he said.

Deborah Hale at SANS suggested that PC users find friends with Macintosh or Linux machines and have them check for malware before plugging any device into a PC.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2096263