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Kaptain Karl
02-13-2008, 03:33 PM
I am so sick of these vermin. I'm glad another one has bitten the dust.

Hezbollah deputy commander Imad Hezbollah deputy commander Imad Mughniyah was recently killed by a car bomb in Syria.



[He] was responsible for numerous infamous deadly attacks against the U.S. and Israel, including involvement in the 1983 bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Lebanon.

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He was Israel's No. 1 most-wanted terrorist, even ahead of Hezbollah chieftain Hassan Nasrallah. Mughniyah was considered one of the most dangerous terrorists in the world by Western intelligence agencies.

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Danny Yatom, a former Mossad chief and current Knesset member, said Mughniyah's death was "a great achievement for the free world in its fight on terror. Mughniyah was one of the most dangerous and cruel terrorists of all time.



On the other hand...
Hezbollah issued a statement declaring, "With all pride we declare a great jihadist leader of the Islamic resistance in Lebanon joining the martyrs."



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56294

- KK

AM28143
02-13-2008, 03:51 PM
I guess I'm happy he's dead, but it doesn't solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict. Violence will continue, other terrorists will assume his position.

-Adam :)

Shahar26
02-13-2008, 03:55 PM
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust


He had so many enemies, it'd unknown who did it, but as always, Israel is the first to get the blame...

CAM178
02-13-2008, 04:13 PM
Terrorists are like rats: every time one dies, 5 more spring up. The most frightening thing I read recently was the discovery of the children's terrorist camp. Was on CNN. Showed kids practicing terrorist actions. Very, very sad. I can't imagine not being able to be a kid. I mean, how do these kids wind down at the end of the day? So much for playing with GI Joe. Guess they take GI Joe, laden him with C4, stick him in a dune, blow him up from a distance, and then laugh? How sad.

Tshooter
02-13-2008, 11:09 PM
"Israel is the first to get the blame..."

You mean the credit.

35ft6
02-14-2008, 08:37 AM
I also believe everything I read.

SFrazeur
02-14-2008, 09:27 AM
I am never "happy" when someone dies. It is a death. I am not happy nor sad. In his case it is a sad end to an even sadder life, one spent in the warrant of death and destruction. While I am very glad that this sort of person is no longer able to do as they wish, however, if I find joy in his death. . .then I am really no better than him.

-SF

stormholloway
02-14-2008, 09:35 AM
I wonder if the boogey man will ever die.

Supernatural_Serve
02-14-2008, 09:38 AM
if I find joy in his death. . .then I am really no better than him.

-SFWell, its one thing to have a feeling, its another thing to commit mass murder.

There is a hierarchy of evil.

Mss murderers are on one end of the hierarchy, those feeling good about the death of a mass murderer aren't anywhere near them in the hierarchy.

diegaa
02-14-2008, 10:02 AM
Well, its one thing to have a feeling, its another thing to commit mass murder.

There is a hierarchy of evil.

Mss murderers are on one end of the hierarchy, those feeling good about the death of a mass murderer aren't anywhere near them in the hierarchy.

i couldnt agree more. well put.

SFrazeur
02-14-2008, 10:34 AM
Well, its one thing to have a feeling, its another thing to commit mass murder.

There is a hierarchy of evil.

Mss murderers are on one end of the hierarchy, those feeling good about the death of a mass murderer aren't anywhere near them in the hierarchy.

The "could be so much worse" argument just does not fly with me. Now, there are people so filled with grief because to terrorism, that I cannot imagine, I certainly do not hold it against them if they do find joy, or lightening of mood in such occasions. Sometimes you have to take the emotions you can still feel when you get the chance.

-SF

Kaptain Karl
02-14-2008, 02:27 PM
... if I find joy in his death. . .then I am really no better than him.So what would your response be to know "the next" Hussein, Pol Pot, Bin Laden or Hitler was stopped, caught and killed? I'm really interested to know.

I don't know if it makes a difference to you, but when such vermin are permanently stopped I do, indeed, have a sense of satisfaction. I am glad for those who these scum have tormented and terrorized, that they do not have such evil stalking them -- in *that* form of slime -- anymore.

- KK

drakulie
02-14-2008, 02:44 PM
Good! and thank god he wasn't captured by the Americans as there would be millions of idiots calling for the US not to violate his "civil rights".

SFrazeur
02-14-2008, 02:44 PM
So what would your response be to know "the next" Hussein, Pol Pot, Bin Laden or Hitler was stopped, caught and killed? I'm really interested to know.

- KK

What you seem to be going through is the process of trying to find a way to get me to give you the answer you want. A better question would be, will you keep changing the question until you get the response you prefer? That is a game I will not play. Respects.

-SF

richw76
02-14-2008, 02:52 PM
Some of you may want to check out a movie

It's Called ISLAM - What the west needs to know

http://openflv.com/watch?v=OTA5Mzk4MA==&p=0


I've checked some of the highlights of the movie with a Muslim friend and he said it was mostly accurate, although somewhat overstated. He admitted that many people that are more conservative think and act like the ones in this documentary.

Doc Hollidae
02-14-2008, 02:58 PM
Good! and thank god he wasn't captured by the Americans as there would be millions of idiots calling for the US not to violate his "civil rights".

I say this in jest, cuz I'm sure people will take offense and derail the thread, but don't you mean millions of Liberals? :twisted:

drakulie
02-14-2008, 03:00 PM
You're a daisy if you do.

saram
02-14-2008, 03:09 PM
There is no good death in this world. But, if the only way to stop a person from killing in mass quantities and instilling terror is death; then that a good resolution.

Like KK put in the title of the thread: A few hundred to go...that is scary in the fact that we'll have to see the death of couple hundred people just to save a lot more.

Unfortunately, the world has changed.

Shahar26
02-14-2008, 03:51 PM
There is no good death in this world. But, if the only way to stop a person from killing in mass quantities and instilling terror is death; then that a good resolution.

Like KK put in the title of the thread: A few hundred to go...that is scary in the fact that we'll have to see the death of couple hundred people just to save a lot more.

Unfortunately, the world has changed.

Probably more like hundred thousands......

AM28143
02-14-2008, 03:58 PM
I don't believe anyone is evil. Rather, I believe tragic circumstances force people to do evil things.

-Adam :)

tennispro11
02-14-2008, 04:07 PM
No one person is born inherently evil, it is the choices they make that determine if they are good or bad. I think over the course of a lifetime a person can become evil. Look at Hitler, that was one evil SOB. Charles Manson is another one, and Bundy too.

T

PCXL-Fan
02-14-2008, 04:08 PM
I don't believe anyone is evil. Rather, I believe tragic circumstances force people to do evil things.

-Adam :)

I agree. Despite what newspapers say, most things aren't black and white. Many things are shades of grey.

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:09 PM
I don't believe anyone is evil. Rather, I believe tragic circumstances force people to do evil things.

-Adam :)

what about when people do evil things when there are no "tragic circumstances" there to "make" them do those evil things?

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:09 PM
No one person is born inherently evil, it is the choices they make that determine if they are good or bad. I think over the course of a lifetime a person can become evil. Look at Hitler, that was one evil SOB. Charles Manson is another one, and Bundy too.

T

Evil or just delusional? Hilter did believe what he was doing was right.

-Adam :)

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:10 PM
No one person is born inherently evil, it is the choices they make that determine if they are good or bad. I think over the course of a lifetime a person can become evil. Look at Hitler, that was one evil SOB. Charles Manson is another one, and Bundy too.

T

i think this is more accurate than the idea that there are no evil people...

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:10 PM
what about when people do evil things when there are no "tragic circumstances" there to "make" them do those evil things?

Name one.

-Adam :)

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:13 PM
Evil or just delusional? Hilter did believe what he was doing was right.

-Adam :)

i guess you could just look at every evil person and say they must be delusional... but even if they are delusional does that mean they can't also be evil? sounds like a cop out to me.

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:14 PM
Name one.

-Adam :)

surprised you can't think of any yourself. pro already named a few... but rapists, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles... they are countless. to name one wouldn't do the rest of them justice...

Kaptain Karl
02-14-2008, 04:15 PM
SF, that was a weaksauce dodge. If you don't have an opinion, don't pretend to be so "above it all." You pretend I'm somehow manipulating you, when all I did was seek to find some "boundary" to your loftiness.

Good grief!

- KK

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:17 PM
Name one.

-Adam :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country#United_States

might find more than one... but you can stop when you please...

drakulie
02-14-2008, 04:18 PM
I don't believe anyone is evil. Rather, I believe tragic circumstances force people to do evil things.

-Adam :)

I very respectfully, but **STRONGLY** disagree.

Yes, somtimes people are "forced" by certain circumstances to **choose* to do bad things. Such as a father protecting his family forced to protect his family by killing an intruder to his home.

But many times, people **choose** to do bad things even though there has not been any tragedy in their lives.

Shahar26
02-14-2008, 04:20 PM
No one person is born inherently evil, it is the choices they make that determine if they are good or bad. I think over the course of a lifetime a person can become evil. Look at Hitler, that was one evil SOB. Charles Manson is another one, and Bundy too.

T

Many times it's not their choice, if you are taught to hate since you're a baby, it's virtually impossible to "find your way".....

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:23 PM
I very respectfully, but **STRONGLY** disagree.

Yes, somtimes people are "forced" by certain circumstances to **choose* to do bad things. Such as a father protecting his family forced to protect his family by killing an intruder to his home.

But many times, people **choose** to do bad things even though there has not been any tragedy in their lives.

yeah, big difference there. it is interesting how people talk about circumstances that "force" or "make" people do certain things. to say there are NO evil people seems like a stretch to me.

i guess calling mass murderers, serial killers, rapists, etc JUST DELUSIONAL gets them off the hook! i mean, they are JUST DELUSIONAL, that is all...

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:26 PM
surprised you can't think of any yourself. pro already named a few... but rapists, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles... they are countless. to name one wouldn't do the rest of them justice...

They're not evil, but rather very, very, very confused about life and who they are. They truely believe what they are doing is fine, or necessary in some way. People don't do things because they know it is wrong and evil. Rapists, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles, ect. feel that what they are doing is either right or impossible to stop.

-Adam :)

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:27 PM
Many times it's not their choice, if you are taught to hate since you're a baby, it's virtually impossible to "find your way".....

i don't know about "many times". that might be the case here or there, but there are plenty of people with "normal" upbringings who end up doing horrible things. there are examples of evil people who had siblings, and their siblings weren't going around doing these evil things. so i don't know that blaming it on a thousand other things gets evil people off the hook. i agree we would have to look at each case seperately... but some people make evil choices for whatever reason... and im not going to go out looking for excuses for them...

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:30 PM
They're not evil, but rather very, very, very confused about life and who they are. They truely believe what they are doing is fine, or necessary in some way. People don't do things because they know it is wrong and evil. Rapists, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles, ect. feel that what they are doing is either alright or impossible to stop.

-Adam :)

so because it is impossible to stop it isn't evil??? can you give me some names of rapists and or serial killers that thought that what they did was right? im guessing they are few and far between...

why do you want to give evil people a pass just because they "think it is alright or impossible to stop" or any other nonsense? how can you think they aren't evil?

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:35 PM
so because it is impossible to stop it isn't evil??? can you give me some names of rapists and or serial killers that thought that what they did was right? im guessing they are few and far between...

why do you want to give evil people a pass just because they "think it is alright or impossible to stop" or any other nonsense? how can you think they aren't evil?

What they are doing is evil, but they are not evil themselves. No one is evil. However, certain circumstances, will force ANYONE to do evil things.

If you grew up in Germany in the 1930s, most likely you'd hate Jews and want them to die. You'd think, and possible do, evil things. However, as with you today, you wouldn't be evil.

-Adam :)

drakulie
02-14-2008, 04:36 PM
They're not evil, but rather very, very, very confused about life and who they are. They truely believe what they are doing is fine, or necessary in some way. People don't do things because they know it is wrong and evil. Rapists, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles, ect. feel that what they are doing is either right or impossible to stop.

-Adam :)

This is not entirely true. I have extensive experience working with many of the polulations you mention. Although many of them you have characterized very well, not all of them fall into this definition.

For instance, I have worked extensivley with juvenile sex offenders. Many of them know what they did/are doing is wrong, but yet they still do it. Furthermore, many of them come from great homes, have never been the victims of molestation themsleves, etc.

It just isn't always as simple as 'the devil made me do it", or some outer entity/influence.

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:36 PM
What they are doing is evil, but they are not evil themselves. No one is evil. However, certain circumstances, will force ANYONE to do evil things.

If you grew up in Germany in the 1930s, most likely you'd hate Jews and want them to die. You'd think, and possible do, evil things. However, as with you today, you wouldn't be evil.

-Adam :)

your view of the world is very... interesting! im sure mine is too...

but i am still waiting for a few names you were coming up with...

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:39 PM
. Furthermore, many of them come from great homes, have never been the victims of molestation themsleves, etc.


How do you know? Victims of ****, ect. often do not admit to it.

Nevertheless, I do respect your approach, and I think we have to agree to disagree.

-Adam :)

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:40 PM
This is not entirely true. I have extensive experience working with many of the polulations you mention. Although many of them you have characterized very well, not all of them fall into this definition.

For instance, I have worked extensivley with juvenile sex offenders. Many of them know what they did/are doing is wrong, but yet they still do it. Furthermore, many of them come from great homes, have never been the victims of molestation themsleves, etc.

It just isn't always as simple as 'the devil made me do it", or some outer entity/influence.

that is what i was getting at... but didn't think i had to explain it in such simple terms... it isn't too hard to figure out! but thanks for pointing it out. i don't understand why people can't hold people accountable for their actions. just call them delusional and give them a pass.

i think raping, murdering, then eating people is ok to do. but since i am obviously just "really really confused about life" then im not evil. im "just delusional"! so guys... please don't judge me if i ****, murder, then eat little children. im not evil, really...

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:43 PM
but i am still waiting for a few names you were coming up with...

Rapists usually don't believe what they're doing is right (which is evidence that they're not evil), however, they often do feel that they can't stop themselves, for whatever reasons.

-Adam :)

SFrazeur
02-14-2008, 04:47 PM
SF, that was a weaksauce dodge. If you don't have an opinion, don't pretend to be so "above it all." You pretend I'm somehow manipulating you, when all I did was seek to find some "boundary" to your loftiness.

Good grief!

- KK

Somehow because I do not wish to play a game that makes it a dodge? I expressed my opinion to the thread. I believe you are trying to re-frame the issue to get the response you are looking for. It is simply not a game I play. As well, I do not particularly care for your use of the word "pretend:"
You pretend I'm somehow manipulating you, when all I did was seek to find some "boundary" to your loftiness.
That frames it as if I either, do not actually believe what I am stating, or my opinion is not based in reality but it is all pretend. You are manipulating, which was your word. If I state something then it is an opinion, it is my reality as I see it. I am pretending nothing.

-SF

drakulie
02-14-2008, 04:50 PM
How do you know? Victims of ****, ect. often do not admit to it.

Nevertheless, I do respect your approach, and I think we have to agree to disagree.

-Adam :)

Adam, I work in the mental health field. For 8 years I directed a residential treatment center for youth who had life felonies for sexual offenses. yes, life felonies, meaning they are never getting out of a prison system. Yes, many times victims of **** or molestation will not tell. However, thru psycho therapy and building trusting relationships with these children over the period of several years>>> many things come out, including more offenses than originally thought. And one thing that always comes out during this time is any abuse they may have suffered. remember, there would be more leniency on them if they are the victims of abuse. Looking at a life-long prison sentence would make them come out and say if they were abused.

Thru the course of that time, one with experience will find out if they were ever victimized.

Sometimes, we have to accept that people just do bad things and there is no "logical" reason for it.

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:51 PM
Rapists, serial killers, terrorists, pedophiles, ect. feel that what they are doing is either right or impossible to stop.

-Adam :)

seems to contradict your last statement. and i haven't seen names. are you just making stuff up or can't find names or just confused?

i don't understand the logic of "they can't stop, therefore they are not evil". the fact that they can't stop doing things that they know are evil does not mean they are not evil! i don't know how you came up with that logic... but it doesn't make sense.

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:53 PM
Adam, I work in the mental health field. For 8 years I directed a residential treatment center for youth who had life felonies for sexual offenses. yes, life felonies, meaning they are never getting out of a prison system. Yes, many times victims of **** or molestation will not tell. However, thru psycho therapy and building trusting relationships with these children over the period of several years>>> many things come out, including more offenses than originally thought. And one thing that always comes out during this time is any abuse they may have suffered. remember, there would be more leniency on them if they are the victims of abuse. Looking at a life-long prison sentence would make them come out and say if they were abused.

Thru the course of that time, one with experience will find out if they were ever victimized.

Sometimes, we have to accept that sometimes people just do bad things and there is "logical" reason for it.

Some fail to remember being raped. I had a friend who was raped when he was 12, and, unitl recently, had no memory of it. I did, however, affect his mental health in obvious ways (he tried to kill himself 3-4 times).

-Adam :)

AM28143
02-14-2008, 04:56 PM
I feel calling people "evil" is a simple way of explaining the flaws in our society. Terrorists are not evil, they honestly do believe their actions are right (that's why they continue to do them). And, anyway, you know what---many terrorists do have reasons to dislike Americans or America. The term "evil" was created to make complex problems appear simple. "Hitler was evil," that's the only reason WWII happened. It's annoying

-Adam :)

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:57 PM
Some fail to remember being raped. I had a friend who was raped when he was 12, and, unitl recently, had no memory of it. I did, however, affect his mental health in obvious ways (he tried to kill himself 3-4 times).

-Adam :)

do you not believe drak? he has been very honest, telling you that he even works in the mental health field.. yet it seems like you won't accept that he knows what he is talking about...

tbini87
02-14-2008, 04:59 PM
I feel calling people "evil" is a simple way of explaining the flaws in our society. Terrorists are not evil, they honestly do believe their actions are right (that's why they continue to do them). And, anyway, you know what---many terrorists do have reasons to dislike Americans or America.

so because someone has feelings and/or reasons to dislike america then they aren't evil for committing evil crimes like acts of terrorism? i could almost let the first part of your post slide (if they think it is right... then ok i won't call them evil) but then you go on to talk about them having reasons for disliking americans as if it justifies terrorism!!!

tbini87
02-14-2008, 05:00 PM
"Hitler was evil," that's the only reason WWII happened. It's annoying

-Adam :)

not as annoying as "hitler was delusional" so get off his back. he thought what he was doing what was right... he is ok in my book!

AM28143
02-14-2008, 05:02 PM
so because someone has feelings and/or reasons to dislike america then they aren't evil for committing evil crimes like acts of terrorism? i could almost let the first part of your post slide (if they think it is right... then ok i won't call them evil) but then you go on to talk about them having reasons for disliking americans as if it justifies terrorism!!!

Well, what justified bombing Iraq? It was wrong. However, we're not evil for doing it. We let our emotions take hold of us and oversimplified a situation. The same thing happens with terrorists.

-Adam :)

tbini87
02-14-2008, 05:02 PM
but anyways AM, i will let the qualified drak finish up. you didn't answer some simple questions (like giving a few names, even though i gave you probably more than you would ever need). it is like you want evidence... but don't supply any yourself. then when you get some laid out in front of you you overlook it or disagree with it (using nothing substantial yourself).

AM28143
02-14-2008, 05:05 PM
but anyways AM, i will let the qualified drak finish up. you didn't answer some simple questions (like giving a few names, even though i gave you probably more than you would ever need). it is like you want evidence... but don't supply any yourself. then when you get some laid out in front of you you overlook it or disagree with it (using nothing substantial yourself).

Drak and I disagree, as do you and I. And Drak does have more experience with the matter. However, that doesn't necessarily make her right. She is probably seeing the same things I see, but from another point of view.

-Adam :)

drakulie
02-14-2008, 05:11 PM
Some fail to remember being raped.

-Adam :)

Adam, again the key word here is "some".>>>> **SOME** don't remember because they suppress it. However, **some** were never raped, or molested, or had bad parents, or any excuse whatsoever for the bad things they **freely chose** to do.

SOME simply choose to do bad things. It really is that simple.


PS: I'm a guy. LOL.

Peace!

tbini87
02-14-2008, 05:11 PM
Drak and I disagree, as do you and I. And Drak does have more experience with the matter. However, that doesn't necessarily make her right. She is probably seeing the same things I see, but from another point of view.

-Adam :)

im not so sure that drak is a she...

tbini87
02-14-2008, 05:14 PM
Adam, again the key word here is "some".>>>> **SOME** don't remember because they suppress it. However, **some** were never raped, or molested, or had bad parents, or any excuse whatsoever for the bad things they **freely chose** to do.

SOME simply choose to do bad things. It really is that simple.


PS: I'm a guy. LOL.

Peace!

i was wondering when you became a she!!

but yeah, some people do things out of selfishness, greed, anger, and a million different reasons. i think AM simply made some bold claims that were incorrect...

AM28143
02-14-2008, 05:16 PM
SOME simply choose to do bad things. It really is that simple.

I think the source of our argument comes from the fact that I believe people are born with "blank" minds, with no knowledge of good or bad. Therefore, I then believe that the circumstances of life must force people to do evil things, force people to turn "bad." I think all people have an equal capacity to do good and bad thing.

Btw, are you religious? Becaue I'm not, and that could be the root of our disagreements in general.

-Adam :)

PS- Sorry if I called you a "she." I somewhere along the way must've thought you were a girl, for whatever reason. It happens a lot with me, I confuse the sex of many individuals in this message board. Once again, sorry.

drakulie
02-14-2008, 05:47 PM
I think the source of our argument comes from the fact that I believe people are born with "blank" minds, with no knowledge of good or bad.

I believe we are in agreement here.

Therefore, I then believe that the circumstances of life must force people to do evil things, force people to turn "bad."

Disagree. If this were true, and people were **forced** to do anything bad, then what **forces** the others to be "good"?? the answer??? It is called "freedom of choice">>> there is no forcing. Unless of course you submit to a higher authority and believe our destinies have been planned well ahead of our birth, which you don't since you are not religious.

Remember, in life, people a lot of times want to take short cuts, where as others choose to take the hard path. >> go to school and not cheat, work hard and not steal or depend on anyone, be good parents and deal with the kids, rather than dumping the kids on someone else, etc.


I think all people have an equal capacity to do good and bad thing.

Absolutely agree.

I'm not overly religious, and don''t worry about the "she" comment.

Kaptain Karl
02-14-2008, 05:51 PM
Somehow because I do not wish to play a game that makes it a dodge?No. You are the one who rephrased my honest inquiry as a "game". You ARE dodging my honest inquiry.

I expressed my opinion to the thread. I believe you are trying to re-frame the issue to get the response you are looking for. It is simply not a game I play. As well, I do not particularly care for your use of the word "pretend:"Your double-standard is showing.

You want a "pass" on calling my honest question a "game" ... and you choose to take offense that I say you are "pretending"??? That's sad, SF.

I'd appreciate a little intellectual honesty, please.

- KK

tenn23
02-14-2008, 06:05 PM
Is there research that shows people are not born evil?

AM28143
02-14-2008, 06:07 PM
Is there research that shows people are not born evil?

Is there research that shows people are born evil?

-Adam :)

SFrazeur
02-14-2008, 06:36 PM
No. You are the one who rephrased my honest inquiry as a "game". You ARE dodging my honest inquiry.

I called it as I saw it.


You want a "pass" on calling my honest question a "game" ... and you choose to take offense that I say you are "pretending"??? That's sad, SF.

I am not asking for a pass at all. I'm just not going to allow someone to re-frame something just to get the answer they prefer. I do take offense at someone trying to take my opinion of out the realm of reality by calling it pretend--that it can just be thrown away.

You seem to be making some connection between my not wanting to participate in a re-framing, and my taking offense in my opinions being referred to as pretend--and this somehow equals me doing something "sad." What logical is there behind that; otherwise, I'll just have to call non sequitur on that.



I'd appreciate a little intellectual honesty, please.

- KK

You are obviously not getting the answer you want, so I am somehow being dishonest? I have been honest, I have given you honest answers when questioning has been fair. However, you keep searching for a satisfying answer. You will most likely not receive a satisfying answer from me.

-SF

Kaptain Karl
02-14-2008, 07:18 PM
I called it as I saw it.You're being silly. I ask you one honest question and you spend four posts dodging it and pretending I'm really doing something other than being candid with you.

I am not asking for a pass at all.You're right. You are not "asking" for a PASS; you are stubbornly insisting on it.

I'm just not going to allow someone to re-frame something just to get the answer they prefer.This is the third time you have pretended I did something other than I did. Your double-standard isn't only "showing;" it's now flashing in neon.

I do take offense at someone trying to take my opinion of out the realm of reality by calling it pretend--that it can just be thrown away.You can "take offense" all you want. The problem is ... it's all a pretense of your own manufacture.

You seem to be making some connection between my not wanting to participate in a re-framing ...Straw Man. I never "re-framed" anything. You just keep pretending I did.

... and my taking offense in my opinions being referred to as pretend ..."If the shoe fits...."

What logical is there behind that; otherwise, I'll just have to call non sequitur on that.Yeah. You do that.....

You are obviously not getting the answer you want ...I'm not getting ANY answer to my question. All you are doing is tap-dancing and attempting to deflect.

... so I am somehow being dishonest?Now you're getting it! (Requesting "intellectual honesty" is not the same as requesting plain ol' honesty.)

You will most likely not receive a satisfying answer from me.NOW ... you're being intellectually honest, with that dodge.

Geez!!!

- KK

SFrazeur
02-14-2008, 08:07 PM
You have not shown any respect for my opinion; instead you call it pretend. Are my opinions in contrast to how you see your own actions, yes. You do not have to respect the opinion itself, but I would think that you would have the decency to respect my right for my opinion to be based in reality, instead of it being pretend. I really do not think you understand how insulting that is. I have tried to express that it is my opinion that you are re-framing by my word choice. Yet you cannot have the same respect for me. I see your continued question as a re-framing to receive an answer that you prefer. Which is not fair questioning. Yet you cannot respect that, so you try and bully me by calling it dodging. You try and force an answer to what I see as unfair questioning.

I have a hard time believing it; but you are part of the problem of why these sub forums are a cesspool. You bully people, you are inflammatory, you refuse them, me, the right to have a reality based opinion in direct contrast your own. You takeaway the respect one debater is should have for another. I have seen both sides of you firsthand now; this side turns my stomach. My opinion of you has completely changed.

-SF

Kaptain Karl
02-14-2008, 10:39 PM
You have not shown any respect for my opinion; instead you call it pretend.What I don't have respect for is someone who persistently labels my honest question as "re-framing the question" ... when all he's done is duck the original question.

Are my opinions in contrast ...How would I know? All you've done is tap-danced away from addressing my question and side-tracking the issue. And in doing so, you have lied about my behavior ... and my motives. (I wouldn't normally use such strong wording, but even after I (twice) informed you I was asking you an honest question, you continued to insist I was doing something I was not. You lied about my motives.)

... I would think that you would have the decency to respect my right for my opinion to be based in reality, instead of it being pretend.But that's just it. It is not "reality" to say I am "re-framing" when I am not.

I really do not think you understand how insulting that is.Isn't this ironic. I haven't lied about you, but you choose to be the insulted party....

I have tried to express that it is my opinion that you are re-framing by my word choice.There's fact and there's opinion. Your opinion is not congruent with the fact.

I see your continued question as a re-framing to receive an answer that you prefer.I'm losing count. Is this the fourth or fifth time you have misrepresented my question and my motive?

My opinion of you has completely changed.Well, we share one thing then....

- KK

SFrazeur
02-15-2008, 09:07 AM
Not all matters can be categorized in black and white. While I have been called naive by some, at least I am not what appears to be ignorant of the fact that other people can have a view in stark contrast to my own, that is without needing to claim that they are pretending. If that is a stand you wish to make in life then you make it in a very secure, yet sadly self imposed myopic world. You have shown a lack of ability to acknowledge that I, another person, can see things differently and for it to still be in the realm of reality. I merely think you are wrong, but I do not represent that your views are not reality based, unlike you have to me.

Goodbye.

-SF

35ft6
02-15-2008, 09:13 AM
We're going to be hearing about more and more successes against terrorists as Bush's term comes to a close, so that he can best market the legal changes he wants shoved through before he leaves, and to give the Republican candidate the best chance possible of being elected. Expect some vague allusions to planned attacks on major cities, more successes, a few convictions in our kangaroo courts, etc. This kind of behavior would very quickly and accurately be recognized for being propaganda if done by almost any other world leader, but sadly, Americans have a hard time recognizing, or coming to grips, with the completely obvious.

Kaptain Karl
02-15-2008, 09:32 AM
Probably more like hundred thousands......Maybe ... probably. But call me an optimist....


... and now a word from one of our resident cynics (a word with which I agree....)[Snipped two small phrases as quoting] We're going to be hearing about more and more successes against terrorists as Bush's term comes to a close, so that he ... give the Republican candidate the best chance possible of being elected. Expect some vague allusions to planned attacks on major cities, more successes ... etc. This kind of behavior would very quickly and accurately be recognized for being propaganda if done by almost any other world leader, but sadly, Americans have a hard time recognizing, or coming to grips, with the completely obvious.Do I have to hang-up my "Optimist Badge" if I agree with this? (Actually I have been wondering when "The Big Announcement" of a thwarted terrorist attack on [Chicago / Miami / Las Vegas / fill-in-the-blank] would be timed for the best effect on the election....)

Okay, okay!!! I'm a cynic, too.

- KK

The_Spartan
02-15-2008, 09:50 AM
We need to simply get the hell of out the middle east. They screw with us because we are there and constantly meddling in everyone elses affairs; trying to spread democracy.

Our foriegn policy is comical and wasteful spending.