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cukoo
03-24-2008, 05:48 PM
My current routine is mainly based about the bench, squat, deadlift and pull up. For the bench squat and deadlift, I do 5 set of 5 reps.
I recently tried the deadlift for the first time last week and my lower back was really sore (the good type of sore) the next day. I did 3 set of 8 at 90lb. It's not a lot but I am quite new to weight training.
I recently learned about the power clean...can anyone tell me about this exercise. Is it better than the deadlift? Should I incorporate it into my routine? How will it help my tennis game?

Thanks

hewittfan3
03-24-2008, 06:14 PM
The power clean is the hardest workout there is in my opinion. It basically works every muscle you have and will get you dead tired in like 10 min. Its definnitely better for you than the deadlift. My old high school weights teacher told us that the deadlift was not the best excersice for us. I would definitely do that rather than deadlift

NotAtTheNet
03-24-2008, 06:22 PM
Deadlift and Power clean are fundamentally the 2 most pure lifts in weight lifting, simply bc of the amount of muscles involved and that it involves lifting a heavy weight from its static position on the floor. Deadlift is just a good overall exercise to do, since it really strengthens your core and erector spinae. The power clean though might give you some added strength and balance and speed, due to the explosive movements with the clean and the semi front squat you perform to get the barbell into position. Deadlift, is one of the better exercises if you're getting into powerlifting sincei ts one of the big 3 (bench, deadlift, squat) but you'll benefit your tennis game more with the power cleans. Why not strengthen your shoulders while you're at it and do a power clean and press? I do these with kettle balls and barbells often.

stormholloway
03-24-2008, 07:41 PM
It's apples and oranges really. I do deadlifts and it's about the best hamstring builder there is. The clean is an explosive movement that distributes this resistance amongst many muscles for a brief moment.

For overall fitness the clean is the sure winner. It just depends on what you're going for.

superman1
03-24-2008, 10:54 PM
For me personally, I'm not even going to touch the clean until I'm better at the other lifts. It's an advanced lift and I don't think newbies to the gym should start with it right off the bat, unless they have a coach. The clean is sort of a combination of the deadlift and squat, so when I get stronger on the deadlift, and more flexible on the squat, I'll learn how to do it. There's no question that it's one of the best moves you can do to become a better athlete.

Mikael
03-25-2008, 04:56 AM
If you have "just recently" tried the deadlift and are "new to weight training", you shouldn't be cleaning unless you are supervised by a certified weightlifting coach.

The deadlift is hard enough to master... If you don't have a coach, read up *a lot* on technique and basic kinesiology (lots and lots of excellent articles over at T Nation), increase your deadlift without going too heavy too soon, focusing on form... Then when you feel really confident about your deadlifting form and strength you can start experimenting with the clean/powerclean.

WildVolley
03-25-2008, 02:00 PM
For explosive movement, the power clean is by far the better exercise. However, I think the power clean is a bit dangerous for a beginning lifter. High-pulls where you don't attempt to actually clean the weight is going to be safer. Doing high pulls will help you develop the double-bend movement of your knees to force the weight up and will help your vertical jump.

In any case, both are good exercises.

sepandee
03-25-2008, 03:18 PM
the clean should not be tried by beginners, unless supervised by a qualified trainer. Seriously, it's one of the hardest (if not the hardest) moves in weight training.

A good substitute would be the barbell row. Search the internet for it (bodybuilding.com is a great place).

when you say 90lb, do you mean you have 45 on each side and for some reason, you're not including the weight of the barbell? Or do you have 22.5lb on each side (which makes it 90lb with the barbell, assuming you're using a standard Olympic barbell which weighs 45lb)? You should try to do it with 45lb because of the size of the plates, so a min. of 135lb (if you're a guy and older than 18, you should be able to lift it with proper technique).

Oh, and the clean/row and deadlift are complimentary, not substitutes.

smoothtennis
03-26-2008, 10:20 AM
I agree, based on experience, with just about every poster here.

1. Cleans are better for tennis overall, due to the explosiveness, and the fact that you use so much muscle. It is also an incredible cardio builder, just do 10 of them and see...
2. Deadlift is a great excercise, uses almost all muscle, builds incredible core strength is can be changed with grip and other things to hit different muscle groups harder.
3. Master the DL before doing any cleans. Power cleans are very technique specific, and so are deadlifts.

In both cases, you MUST spend some real time, researching technique. It's worth your time. And start light, and use a periodized routine to build up to higher poundages. ie, don't go balls to the wall every workout.

Just like in tennis---focus on technique and the power will come.

I would also place these two as the two best overall excercises with a barbell that a person can do, you know, the most bang for your buck.

richw76
03-26-2008, 04:53 PM
Blonds Vs. Brunettes. This one could take awhile :-)

All good advice in here. Only thing I disagree with on clean and deadlift. At least in the beginning you can't just read about technique and watch youtube video... although there is some great instructional video on youtube.

You can't see yourself. for example when I first did deadlifts I was alone. I thought my back was straight until I started going to a trainer. She helped me correct my form. And now I know what the lift is supposed to feel like when I do it right. My back wasn't sore or anything but I was also still lifting relatively lite weight. In a month or year I would have really hurt myself if I didn't make changes.

So study the lifts with a buddy and take him along.

stormholloway
03-26-2008, 05:35 PM
You really have to make a point of keeping a straight back with the deadlift almost to the point where it feels like you're arching it. Perhaps there might even be a slight arch.

Anyone have a preference with the legs? Stiff of bend?

Sleepstream
03-26-2008, 05:46 PM
You really have to make a point of keeping a straight back with the deadlift almost to the point where it feels like you're arching it. Perhaps there might even be a slight arch.

Anyone have a preference with the legs? Stiff of bend?

I do stiff, straight, and regular deadlifts. No need to focus on just one.

smoothtennis
03-26-2008, 06:26 PM
You really have to make a point of keeping a straight back with the deadlift almost to the point where it feels like you're arching it. Perhaps there might even be a slight arch.

Anyone have a preference with the legs? Stiff of bend?

Standard DL's will hit the legs more evenly, and the stiff legged variation will hit the hamstrings directly. Both are good, but standard should be learned before any variations.

Good points you guys on keeping the back straight. Here is a great rule of thumb. Once you grip the bar, get your eyes up, and be able to almost see the ceiling. That will engage all of the back muscles, so the lower back doesn't get stuck with most of the load.

This brings up a good point for tennis players that applies here too. When people keep their heads up, and back straight on groundies, they not only have move core muscles in the back engaged and stable, but they also rotate on a better axis for better angular power. To do this, the player who has been bending or hunching over will find out REAL FAST they suddenly have to bend those legs and use the quads and hammies ---- that can be a real shocker, hehe.

sepandee
03-26-2008, 06:33 PM
I will also say this: when doing the DL, the bar is as close as possible to your shin. In fact, I scrape off a few hairs every time. This is to make sure that the barbell and your shoulders are on the same level.

stormholloway
03-26-2008, 06:39 PM
I tend toward the stiff legged version to focus on the hamstrings. Since there are so few hamstring isolation exercises and many exercises that work the quads, I think keeping the legs stiff in a slightly bent fashion keeps the focus on this seldom targeted muscle.

I've never felt so much hamstring soreness as after I did 8 sets of stiff leg deads.

Rickson
03-26-2008, 07:18 PM
My current routine is mainly based about the bench, squat, deadlift and pull up. For the bench squat and deadlift, I do 5 set of 5 reps.
I recently tried the deadlift for the first time last week and my lower back was really sore (the good type of sore) the next day. I did 3 set of 8 at 90lb. It's not a lot but I am quite new to weight training.
I recently learned about the power clean...can anyone tell me about this exercise. Is it better than the deadlift? Should I incorporate it into my routine? How will it help my tennis game?

Thanks

It sounds like you're in training for a powerlifting contest. Do you know that powerlifting consists of the bench press, dead lift, and squat? This is not a good lifting regimen for a symmetrical physique, but if entering lifting contests one day is your goal, continue what you're doing. You're not gonna develop a symmetrical physique this way.

smoothtennis
03-26-2008, 08:27 PM
It sounds like you're in training for a powerlifting contest. Do you know that powerlifting consists of the bench press, dead lift, and squat? This is not a good lifting regimen for a symmetrical physique, but if entering lifting contests one day is your goal, continue what you're doing. You're not gonna develop a symmetrical physique this way.

Rickson, I wouldn't be so absolute with your assesement of his training regimen here. I hear where you are headed but hear me out. These are all great excercises that are compound in nature, hit the entire upper and lower body.

This routine, gives him fully functional movements that use all of the core muscles, and not a bunch of mostly useless isolation movements. This type of routine, especially since he is doing 5x5 (excellent!) will build very good functional strength and shape. I am not sure why you think he can't build a symetrical body using these movements. We are not bodybuilders, we are tennis athletes agreed? Functional strength and conditioning are our main goals, not building a bodybuilders type of build.

Hey, Rickson, you sound like you know a lot, I mean...have you checked some lighter weight class powerlifters, to see what type of builds they have? I think they might surprise some people with their looks, vs. what you see on ESPN Strongest Man, and the BIG Power lifters like Dave Tate and the like...

El Guapo
03-26-2008, 08:51 PM
Good advice in this thread. Just remember to not use a weight belt and take your time going up in weight. Proper form is the key to either exercise.

sepandee
03-26-2008, 09:06 PM
here we are arguing about the finder details and we don't even know the OP's goal in lifting weights, his physical condition, or his prior experience in lifting.

Is he just starting lifting? Yes, as he indicated. So I'm assuming he needs to put on some mass first while developing his strength. Go and read Rippetoe's Starting Strength. Great book and it has been proven to work for all beginners. It's primarily intended as a book for trainers, but it's detailed enough so that even I can read and understand it. Basically it starts with compound exercises with linear weight progression. Squats, Bench Press, Deadlift, more squats, standing military press, and power clean... those are your friends (though I would replace the clean with the barbell row).
Muscle-specific exercises like Pull-ups, dips, bicep and abdominal exercises (whatever you choose) can start coming in around a month after you stick to such a program.
Build your base and your strength, then worry about how you're going to look on the beach or adding more explosiveness.

Rickson
03-27-2008, 03:43 AM
Rickson, I wouldn't be so absolute with your assesement of his training regimen here. I hear where you are headed but hear me out. These are all great excercises that are compound in nature, hit the entire upper and lower body.


These are compound movements and the op said he throws pullups in there, but there are also many bodyparts missing with this routine. Calves, deltoids, trapezius, hamstrings, abdominals, forearms, upper triceps, biceps, and many other bodyparts that are being neglected. I strongly believe in compound exercises, but not at the cost of so much imbalance.

smoothtennis
03-27-2008, 05:38 AM
These are compound movements and the op said he throws pullups in there, but there are also many bodyparts missing with this routine. Calves, deltoids, trapezius, hamstrings, abdominals, forearms, upper triceps, biceps, and many other bodyparts that are being neglected. I strongly believe in compound exercises, but not at the cost of so much imbalance.

I hear you bro, I do. But such is the beauty of these compound movements. All the muscle groups you mentioned there are covered by these basic excercises, except maybe calves (tennis will take care of those, lol).

Deadlift - Hit the entire lower body chain, including hams, quads, hips. It also hits the abdominals for stability. It hits the forearms very hard as the weight increases. It hits the traps hard too, in a very functional way, and the lats do get involved for stability. That may be news to some, but go try this to get an idea of how it hits various muscle groups. Do some wide grip deads with the same wieght as you do standard - wow, youl'll find it hits the traps and lats hard, and you can't pull the same weight easily.

Squats, work more than just the legs - they hit the entire core.

Bench press is goint to hit the delts, pecs, and tricepts pretty hard. I know you can add more shoulder movements, but getting started, hey, it is a great excercise to hit a lot of pushing muscles all around.

Pullups really round this out, hitting the the bicepts, forearms, and lats. Once again, we are talking about a foundation here, not a bodybuilding regimen I think.

Really, as you know, we have to consider the GOAL of the OP.

So I'm not knocking you Rickson, just want to give a bigger view of the benefits of those three or four big excercises. Heck most guys, want to go into the gym right off with dumbell curls for 20 sets - c'mon, youv'e seen it, and skip the compounds, lol. How many guys do we really see in the gym doing Deads and Squats? Not many. There is a reason they are not fun to do - they use a ton of muscle and energy.

smoothtennis
03-27-2008, 05:39 AM
here we are arguing about the finder details and we don't even know the OP's goal in lifting weights, his physical condition, or his prior experience in lifting.

Is he just starting lifting? Yes, as he indicated. So I'm assuming he needs to put on some mass first while developing his strength. Go and read Rippetoe's Starting Strength. Great book and it has been proven to work for all beginners. It's primarily intended as a book for trainers, but it's detailed enough so that even I can read and understand it. Basically it starts with compound exercises with linear weight progression. Squats, Bench Press, Deadlift, more squats, standing military press, and power clean... those are your friends (though I would replace the clean with the barbell row).
Muscle-specific exercises like Pull-ups, dips, bicep and abdominal exercises (whatever you choose) can start coming in around a month after you stick to such a program.
Build your base and your strength, then worry about how you're going to look on the beach or adding more explosiveness.

Nice post. Good advice here.

purple-n-gold
03-27-2008, 07:08 AM
Two totally diffrent weight training exercises,one's not any better jus depends on what muscles your targetting. Agree w/ previous post that clean might be better for tennis since it's more of an "explosive" movement and incorporates more muscle groups.I like the stiff legged deads for hams and lower back and really work well as a stretch after coming off leg curls.I tried a lift yesterday during a conditioning class called an olympic lift which was much like the clean but at the finish the dumbells were pressed overhead,took some practice but a really nice finish to a killer workout.

cukoo
03-27-2008, 10:03 AM
Hey, thanks for the great advice.

Rickson, I throw in a couple set of bicep curl, tricep extension and calve raises along with the leg press but those 3 are just the main part of my routine because I heard they are good for beginners. I've did some research and I would classify myself as an ectomorph and I am quite thin so my goal is to put on some mass. And other advice?

sepandee
03-27-2008, 10:12 AM
Hey, thanks for the great advice.

Rickson, I throw in a couple set of bicep curl, tricep extension and calve raises along with the leg press but those 3 are just the main part of my routine because I heard they are good for beginners. I've did some research and I would classify myself as an ectomorph and I am quite thin so my goal is to put on some mass. And other advice?

I swear Rippetoe's Starting Strength is what you should look into. Forget everything else, at least for the first 2-3 months. I did it myself (until i was hit with my injury). It was really good. After 2 months anyone could tell the difference between the new me and the old me. My body fat % had actually gone down by 4 points (from 17 to 13), yet I went from 1432lb to 154lb.

smoothtennis
03-27-2008, 10:14 AM
The New Rules of Lifting is also a very functional, pracitical, no BS book to lifting that is excellent. Also includes how to diet for loss or gain. Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cosgrove. Cosgrove knows his stuff.

Mikael
03-27-2008, 10:16 AM
Hey, thanks for the great advice.

Rickson, I throw in a couple set of bicep curl, tricep extension and calve raises along with the leg press but those 3 are just the main part of my routine because I heard they are good for beginners. I've did some research and I would classify myself as an ectomorph and I am quite thin so my goal is to put on some mass. And other advice?

If you are an ectomorph and your goal is to gain mass, the objectives are simple enough and could be summed up in two sentences: Get stronger in the gym (compound movements mostly). Get bigger outside the gym (EAT, rest, relax, sleep...).

Rickson
03-27-2008, 07:45 PM
Hey, thanks for the great advice.

Rickson, I throw in a couple set of bicep curl, tricep extension and calve raises along with the leg press but those 3 are just the main part of my routine because I heard they are good for beginners. I've did some research and I would classify myself as an ectomorph and I am quite thin so my goal is to put on some mass. And other advice?

If I agree to help you, I must have your full cooperation. The first piece of advice I'll give you is to not do any cardio. I'm not saying you shouldn't play tennis because that's your fun time, but don't do any intentional cardio. In other words, don't jump on the treadmill or stationary bike because you want to get some "exercise". If you feel that's unreasonable and that cardio is a must, you're on your own. But if you feel that I gave you the right advice, tell me now and we'll move forward from here.

stormholloway
03-27-2008, 08:22 PM
Well, I'm an ectomorph and am in the midst of bulking right now, so I can certainly share my thoughts with you as well.

Just don't be afraid to pack on a little fat. Fat can be your friend.