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hoahuyen
03-26-2008, 10:34 PM
I just got the book and it is great. As I'm trying to improve my serve, I jump immediately to the serve part. There is a paragraph that I don't understand in p. 241.

" B. Greater rotation of the wrists on the backswing
Turn your wrist in towards your hips at the ready position. The more you can turn the wrist in, the more range of motion the racket will be able to create in the serve ..."

Look at Fig 27 in you book I can understand how we "turn the wrist in". But I don't how it's gonna affect the serve because when we start taking the backswing, we of course "undo" the "wrist turned in" motion.

Could you clarify this point?

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx? (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|78692868%2c78686162%2c78686583%2c78675874%2c 78675262%2c78663311%2c78535652%2c78504378%2c784985 68%2c80051340%2c80051324%2c80051322%2c78418306%2c7 8418304%2c78418302%2c78418301%2c78418297%2c7841829 6%2c78418293%2c78418292%2c78418289%2c79200909%2c78 342513%2c78342511%2c78301944%2c78298227%2c78298142 %2c78297951%2c78263235%2c78263064%2c78262982%2c782 62979%2c78299146%2c78210062%2c78206192%2c78180244% 2c78180243%2c78180239%2c78142037%2c78133149%2c7820 0601%2c78143403%2c78083288%2c78083160%2c78083118%2 c78083116%2c78080147%2c78080116%2c78078005%2c78151 443%2c78043914%2c78043912%2c78043911%2c78043861%2c 77974349%2c77969187%2c77969106%2c77968858%2c779609 28%2c77930624|0&id=78686162)

By the way, the pic above is the only one I can find resemble Fig 27 in TennisMastery's book. Look at the wrist of the girl.

Tennismastery
03-27-2008, 09:29 AM
Hi and thanks for the question!

Regarding the turned in wrist, you will want to retain the integrity of this position during your backswing. If you are rotating the wrist out of this position, you likely are moving towards a "waiter's grip" position, which limits the range of movement of the racquet and also limits the availability of spin on the serve. (Correct spin, that is!)

If you look at pros serving, the racquet orientation to the wrist is maintained through to the collapse of the racquet.

While this will feel a little awkward for some players, the exercise in this move will open the eyes to what the racquet can and should do more correctly and help players move away from the dreaded palm-up position notorious seen among the millions of stagnant 3.0 players (at least stagnant on their serves!) and start on a path towards more advanced serve technique.

Hope this answers the question. Feel free to ask me for more if it doesn't.

hyogen
03-27-2008, 10:07 AM
I just got the book and it is great. As I'm trying to improve my serve, I jump immediately to the serve part. There is a paragraph that I don't understand in p. 241.

" B. Greater rotation of the wrists on the backswing
Turn your wrist in towards your hips at the ready position. The more you can turn the wrist in, the more range of motion the racket will be able to create in the serve ..."

Look at Fig 27 in you book I can understand how we "turn the wrist in". But I don't how it's gonna affect the serve because when we start taking the backswing, we of course "undo" the "wrist turned in" motion.

Could you clarify this point?

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx? (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|78692868%2c78686162%2c78686583%2c78675874%2c 78675262%2c78663311%2c78535652%2c78504378%2c784985 68%2c80051340%2c80051324%2c80051322%2c78418306%2c7 8418304%2c78418302%2c78418301%2c78418297%2c7841829 6%2c78418293%2c78418292%2c78418289%2c79200909%2c78 342513%2c78342511%2c78301944%2c78298227%2c78298142 %2c78297951%2c78263235%2c78263064%2c78262982%2c782 62979%2c78299146%2c78210062%2c78206192%2c78180244% 2c78180243%2c78180239%2c78142037%2c78133149%2c7820 0601%2c78143403%2c78083288%2c78083160%2c78083118%2 c78083116%2c78080147%2c78080116%2c78078005%2c78151 443%2c78043914%2c78043912%2c78043911%2c78043861%2c 77974349%2c77969187%2c77969106%2c77968858%2c779609 28%2c77930624|0&id=78686162)

By the way, the pic above is the only one I can find resemble Fig 27 in TennisMastery's book. Look at the wrist of the girl.


wow that looks like a forehand grip! what kind of serve is this for? like an eastern forehand grip...

tennis mastery, does this picture show the "dreaded palm-up" grip that should be avoided?

millenium
03-27-2008, 10:22 AM
Dave smith, can you please post a link where i can purchase your new book. Is this the coaching mastery book, which you just finished? What is the isbn number of book as i live in europe and would like to order it from the internet. Thanks.

NiteFly
03-27-2008, 10:27 AM
I don't understand this. Is the tip to keep the inside of your wrist facing your body? So, kind of the opposite of Boris Becker?

BravoRed691
03-27-2008, 10:43 AM
I think we have to keep in mind to separate the picture from TM's post...a little...the picture was one that the OP used as the example, not TM.

I sent my check in already...hope it will make the April 1st deadline but without reading the book, im deducing that this tip is similar to the "make the halo" tip i grew up hearing all the time...

Br

hyogen
03-27-2008, 10:46 AM
in the linked picture in the OP, it looks like she's using an eastern Forehand grip
http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/gear/general/general.aspx?id=649

BravoRed691
03-27-2008, 10:56 AM
in the linked picture in the OP, it looks like she's using an eastern Forehand grip

http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/gear/...al.aspx?id=649

The link didn't work...it does look like an eastern but im not convinced..it's not the best angle...i juts held my hands in different positions in front of a mirror and it is hard to tell...

Br

hyogen
03-27-2008, 12:07 PM
The link didn't work...it does look like an eastern but im not convinced..it's not the best angle...i juts held my hands in different positions in front of a mirror and it is hard to tell...

Br

oops. I just fixed it: http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/gear/general/general.aspx?id=649

Bungalo Bill
03-27-2008, 01:32 PM
tennis mastery, does this picture show the "dreaded palm-up" grip that should be avoided?

There is no way that it does.

hyogen
03-27-2008, 01:37 PM
i have no idea waht this palm up grip is.

i can guess and it's having almost a western forehand grip to serve..lol That way while you're about to toss your palm will be facing up.

wihamilton
03-27-2008, 01:40 PM
Hi and thanks for the question!

Regarding the turned in wrist, you will want to retain the integrity of this position during your backswing. If you are rotating the wrist out of this position, you likely are moving towards a "waiter's grip" position, which limits the range of movement of the racquet and also limits the availability of spin on the serve. (Correct spin, that is!)

If you look at pros serving, the racquet orientation to the wrist is maintained through to the collapse of the racquet.

While this will feel a little awkward for some players, the exercise in this move will open the eyes to what the racquet can and should do more correctly and help players move away from the dreaded palm-up position notorious seen among the millions of stagnant 3.0 players (at least stagnant on their serves!) and start on a path towards more advanced serve technique.

Hope this answers the question. Feel free to ask me for more if it doesn't.

This is a fantastic explanation. The "waiters grip" is a great way to describe the palm up position you see in the trophy pose. Nice work Dave.

hyogen
03-27-2008, 01:40 PM
oohh... so the tossing hand. i was talking about the serving hand

wihamilton
03-27-2008, 01:50 PM
oohh... so the tossing hand. i was talking about the serving hand

So was I :). Get to the trophy pose and stop there (make sure you are holding the racket with your serving grip). Now lay your wrist back (hopefully you aren't already in this position!) like you were holding a tray over your head, like you see waiters do all the time. That, as I understand it, is the "waiter's grip." It puts your wrist in the wrong position... you won't be able to pronate correctly later in the serve.

smoothtennis
03-27-2008, 01:58 PM
This is that serve these people have that actually imparts underspin on the serve!!! You know...when the racket is over their head, they lay the wrist and racket back like they are about to swat at a fly in front of them - palm and strings facing up to the sky overhead.

zebano
03-27-2008, 01:58 PM
It's off topic, but hydrogen, that avatar image is amazing. Kimmie and Fiona, who woulda thunk it?

wihamilton
03-27-2008, 02:05 PM
It's off topic, but hydrogen, that avatar image is amazing. Kimmie and Fiona, who woulda thunk it?

I just noticed this. Brilliant.

hyogen
03-27-2008, 02:13 PM
It's off topic, but hydrogen, that avatar image is amazing. Kimmie and Fiona, who woulda thunk it?

it's not my original idea though. look up the Players Resemblances thread.. :)

My original contributions were: dominik hrbaty and the Mad Hatter from the new animated series Batman

and Shaggy from Scooby Doo the actual movie and Thomas Johannson

more can be found here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=59338&highlight=player+resemblances&page=32 and here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=104426&highlight=player+resemblances

therein lie other gems such as: Stole this from another board, so sue me...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Geniey2g/parecidos.jpg
Josh Hartnett & Rafael Nadal



see?

http://oregonstate.edu/~lamontm/tennis/6017_Clijsters-Kim.jpg http://oregonstate.edu/~lamontm/tennis/9681.jpg

ok back on topic

Bungalo Bill
03-27-2008, 03:46 PM
it's not my original idea though. look up the Players Resemblances thread.. :)

My original contributions were: dominik hrbaty and the Mad Hatter from the new animated series Batman

and Shaggy from Scooby Doo the actual movie and Thomas Johannson

more can be found here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=59338&highlight=player+resemblances&page=32 and here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=104426&highlight=player+resemblances

therein lie other gems such as:



see?

http://oregonstate.edu/~lamontm/tennis/6017_Clijsters-Kim.jpg http://oregonstate.edu/~lamontm/tennis/9681.jpg

ok back on topic

And they thought I was mean. :)

hyogen
03-27-2008, 03:50 PM
the truth hurts and is sometimes mean ;)

Bungalo Bill
03-27-2008, 03:53 PM
the truth hurts and is sometimes mean ;)

I got to admit they do look like family.

Tennismastery
03-27-2008, 03:58 PM
Hi all,

In response to the question and the original poster's attached image: it is a bit hard to examine her grip as her knuckles kind of blend in with her wrist in the photo. But, I will bet money it is NOT an eastern forehand grip! If anything, it looks like a mild continental grip, not a true continental, but continental enough. However, she does have the racquet opened up so the hitting surface is facing her face a bit...and yes, this is opposed to how Becker (Boris) used to close his face. But, in all the pictures of him, he still held a continental grip...what confuses many is that he indeed turns his wrist out to close the hitting surface more towards the ground or net, (depending on where in his action he is), which makes his racquet appear to be held in an eastern forehand grip relative to his forearm. He was more of an anomolly (spelling?) in this move. The majority of skilled servers open their racquet face a bit, more for those who might want a little more spin action. (Opening the wrist or rotating the grip more towards an eastern backhand grip will naturally impart more slice and or hybrid spin.)

But, the point I made in my book was to help players avoid the dreaded waiter's grip or palm-up position in the typical trophy position that many alluded to here.

(Thank you wihamilton for the nice comment!)

And finally, for those who are interested, Tennis Warehouse now has my new book in stock and it is ready for shipping. (If you liked or loved Tennis Mastery, I think you will really love Coaching Mastery...especially if you coach, teach or have kids who play tennis!) Also, you can go to my new web site: coaching-mastery.com which is an interim informational site and for those who want to order the book directly from me.

I hope I'm not sounding like I am trying to over-promote my book here. I've been a little absent from these boards as I've been traveling a lot. Hope to come back and offer any help I can!

Thanks to all who have shown interest as well as shared comments about my books!

user92626
03-27-2008, 04:20 PM
oh gosh, I still don't get the meaning of "waiter's grip". Which restaurant should I go to find this grip? :-?

Bungalo Bill
03-27-2008, 04:48 PM
oh gosh, I still don't get the meaning of "waiter's grip". Which restaurant should I go to find this grip? :-?

Man, everyone is making this difficult. I beleive all Tennis Mastery is a saying is to keep your palm as much as you can aimed at your hip or inward. As the passes the side of yor head you can have it pointed towards your ear. You still need to allow your arm and had to fold and unfold naturally in the serve motion.

The waiters grip is simple to understand. Pretend you are bringing several plates of food to a table. You will carry this most likely on a tray. your hand underneath will be cocked back with the palm up supporting the tray.

Some players open their palm to the sky before going forward. That is the waiters grip or motion. It mostly happens with people who use an Eastern Forehand grip for their serve.

hoahuyen
03-27-2008, 06:41 PM
Hi and thanks for the question!

Regarding the turned in wrist, you will want to retain the integrity of this position during your backswing. If you are rotating the wrist out of this position, you likely are moving towards a "waiter's grip" position, which limits the range of movement of the racquet and also limits the availability of spin on the serve. (Correct spin, that is!)

If you look at pros serving, the racquet orientation to the wrist is maintained through to the collapse of the racquet.

While this will feel a little awkward for some players, the exercise in this move will open the eyes to what the racquet can and should do more correctly and help players move away from the dreaded palm-up position notorious seen among the millions of stagnant 3.0 players (at least stagnant on their serves!) and start on a path towards more advanced serve technique.

Hope this answers the question. Feel free to ask me for more if it doesn't.

Great. I get it now. At first I paid attention to the "toward the hip" part and it made me confused because when we start swinging there's no relation between hip and arm any more.

So to sum up, you should bend your wrist inward when you start your serve and keep that motion to avoid the "waiter" position. That's all. I see a lot of pros doing that like Gaudio, Canas, or Ivanisevic here.
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx? (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Detail.aspx?axd=DetailPaging.Search|1&axs=0|78602410%2c78602408%2c78602407%2c78599724%2c 78599711%2c78599709%2c78599707%2c78599702%2c786057 50%2c78568830%2c78567360%2c77534163%2c73477412%2c7 3477405%2c73477338%2c73477326%2c72789819%2c7278981 7%2c72789816%2c72789634%2c72789627%2c72777775%2c72 777773%2c72777771%2c71233016%2c53057935%2c53057515 %2c53057428%2c55788399%2c55788389%2c599920%2c59964 7%2c599908%2c51723659%2c993060%2c79019714%2c515126 03%2c51512569%2c991983%2c51512546%2c51512528%2c515 12527%2c51512526%2c51512525%2c51512524%2c51512523% 2c51512522%2c51512521%2c51512517%2c51512513%2c5151 2511%2c960599%2c584204%2c79019686%2c79019387%2c790 49700%2c714065%2c51964667%2c1019614%2c1210423|0&id=960599)

Thanks TennisMastery for your quick response. I found your book insightful. Highly recommend to others.

Thanks Bills, FYB and others coming here to share your knowledge. By the way, the video of the serve on you site is great, FYB.