PDA

View Full Version : Explain the one-handed backhand's fall on the WTA


soyizgood
04-08-2008, 10:57 AM
This is something I haven't figured out and I've wondered about this on a few occasions.

I tried looking at it from this perspective:

* Evert popularized the two-handed backhand in the 70s which was then duplicated by Austin. However, Austin went down with injuries which pretty much left Evert to carry the 2HBH. Even though she was VERY successful, most of the up and comers were using one-handed backhands. King, Goolagong, Navratilova, Mandlikova, and a host of OHBHers still predominated the landscape.

* After Evert retired, it would be a few years before another 2HBH player would rise. While that was waiting to occur Graf achieved the Golden Slam while Navratilova and Mandlikova were in the slam mix. Seles and Sanchez-Vicario emerged. But after Seles got stabbed, that really left Sanchez-Vicario holding the fort for the 2HBH while Graf went on to win a ton of slams. And the OHBH camp also had Sabatini, Novotna, Conchita, Sukova as possible successors to carry Navratilova's torch.

* Things for the OHBH camp started going downhill as Graf was on the decline. By the time she left, 2HBHers Hingis, Serena, Venus, Davenport, Pierce, Capriati were primed and ready. Meanwhile, the OHBHers had to wait until Henin and Mauresmo emerged.

What baffles me is when exactly did the 2HBH start to become popular for on the WTA? Graf was winning 3 majors a year in the mid 90s yet when she was on the way out, the vast majority of new stars were using two-handed backhands. Did Seles' success ignite the rise of the 2HBH? Were coaches drifting towards teaching the 2HBH to women despite Graf's success? Was it because girls were starting to play tennis at a younger age in the late 80s and early 90s which resulted in a huge wave of elite women with 2HBHs once Graf retired?

I'm NOT trying to start a 2HBH-OHBH battleground as we have enough of those already. What's happened on the WTA as far as the OHBH is concerned is something that almost defies logic.

Rickson
04-08-2008, 11:00 AM
Explain the one-handed backhand's fall on the WTA


This is easy: the 2 handed backhand was custom made for women. Women are generally weaker than men so it makes perfect sense. As for men using that stroke, I guess it's because they have very feminine qualities. You use a 2 hander, soy. Enough said.

soyizgood
04-08-2008, 11:08 AM
This is easy: the 2 handed backhand was custom made for women. Women are generally weaker than men so it makes perfect sense. As for men using that stroke, I guess it's because they have very feminine qualities. You use a 2 hander, soy. Enough said.

Capriati, Serena, Kuznetsova, and Venus could kick the crud out of 90+% of the ATP players in a brawl. They certainly aren't weak.

Federer probably can't even bench press 1/2 as much as Safin, Nadal, or Roddick. Gasquet I doubt could even bench press 75% of his weight. Federer and Gasquet don't come off as manly and are very soft-spoken.

Anyway, I'm not surprised by your response. Just like Breakpoint, you twist the question and shoot blanks elsewhere...LMAO

Rickson
04-08-2008, 11:11 AM
Capriati, Serena, Kuznetsova, and Venus could kick the crud out of 90+% of the ATP players in a brawl. They certainly aren't weak.


There's not an ATP player out there who couldn't kick those girls' floppy asses. Ok, maybe not Donald Young.

soyizgood
04-08-2008, 11:19 AM
There's not an ATP player out there who couldn't kick those girls' floppy asses. Ok, maybe not Donald Young.

Round ONE: Macho Gasquet vs Maiden Serena. RIP Gasquet.... over-hyped one-shot pony that was too scared to face Donald Young @USO

I rest my case. Back to the original topic....

Rickson
04-08-2008, 11:23 AM
Tommy Haas with a backhand smack across Serena's face and she's out cold. Next!

soyizgood
04-08-2008, 11:24 AM
Tommy Haas with a backhand smack across Serena's face and she's out cold. Next!

Tommy would trip over himself as he approaches her. He'll take his typical 6 month layoff and forget what he was trying to do.

Rickson
04-08-2008, 11:27 AM
Federer takes Capriati down and kisses her for the mononucleosis knockout! Next!

Vision84
04-08-2008, 11:47 AM
Wow this topic really went off topic fast. :)

And to try to bring this back.

Yes strength is an issue. Sure players like Serena and Capriati in their prime could clobber the ball but they are taught the strokes when they are young girls before they have physical strength. And well you know how players don't tend to like to change from one backhand to the other type unless your name is Sampras.

Nellie
04-08-2008, 12:21 PM
I my eye, everything about the game these days is about making the best 13 year old player possible, because players need to make a splash at a young age to get elite coaching and sponserships. This is particularly true with girls, because there is presure to go pro at a younger age.

soyizgood
04-08-2008, 01:10 PM
I wonder if the decline of serve & volley also played a role in the decline of the OHBH on the women's side. With serve & volley virtually gone, the women's game has become a baseline battle. Serves are coming in harder (even Henin has hit 124MPH on hers while Venus clocked at 129MPH) and strokes are being hit with more pace than in the past. Very little in the form of finesse in the women's game.

Djokovicfan4life
04-08-2008, 01:34 PM
There's not an ATP player out there who couldn't kick those girls' floppy asses. Ok, maybe not Donald Young.

Ahahahahahahahahahaha!

Rickson's right though, most women simply grow up using the two handed backhand and don't have the strength or the determination necessary to master the stroke.

FedererISBetter
04-08-2008, 02:59 PM
so are we saying that one hander is weaker in terms of pace, speed, spin, combo of both? : /

Djokovicfan4life
04-08-2008, 03:07 PM
so are we saying that one hander is weaker in terms of pace, speed, spin, combo of both? : /

The one-hander is NOT weaker than the devil's backhand in ANYTHING, whether Soy admits it or not.

TennisProdigy
04-08-2008, 03:09 PM
so are we saying that one hander is weaker in terms of pace, speed, spin, combo of both? : /

Probably just pace and stability for the woman that is.

soyizgood
04-08-2008, 03:23 PM
The one-hander is NOT weaker than the devil's backhand in ANYTHING, whether Soy admits it or not.

Your irrationality and arrogrance only grows stronger with each passing day.

This is a discussion involving why the OHBH is rarely used on the WTA. Yet some folks here seem content to deflect the issue at hand or try to expand this question into other aspects.

Some people here (*cough* Rickson and Djokovicfan4life *cough*) have shown they are not rational thinkers and will stoop REEEEEEEEAL low to get their point across. They can go drool over Robredo's or Graf's backhand (or perfect the art of Federer's shanks) for all I care.

At least we have an idea of some of the factors contributing to the lack of OHBHers on the WTA tour. Any more theories and thoughts are welcome.

A.Davidson
04-08-2008, 03:28 PM
This is easy: the 2 handed backhand was custom made for women. Women are generally weaker than men so it makes perfect sense. As for men using that stroke, I guess it's because they have very feminine qualities. You use a 2 hander, soy. Enough said.

Yep. I agree.

Rickson
04-08-2008, 05:16 PM
Soy, we don't claim to be politically correct. We tell the truth and the truth is that many women don't like the one hander because they're girly. If that bothers you then that's nothing new.

Djokovicfan4life
04-08-2008, 05:19 PM
Love you too, Soy.

Rickson
04-08-2008, 05:20 PM
You're gross, DF!

Djokovicfan4life
04-08-2008, 05:29 PM
I'm just tired of playing his silly mind games.

Rickson
04-08-2008, 05:36 PM
I'm just tired of playing his silly mind games.

I don't think those are mind games at all. I think soy genuinely believes that the 2 hander is a better stroke than the one hander.

Djokovicfan4life
04-08-2008, 05:41 PM
I don't think those are mind games at all. I think soy genuinely believes that the 2 hander is a better stroke than the one hander.
I want whatever he's been smoking!

Mahboob Khan
04-08-2008, 06:03 PM
Justine Henin does not look that strong and yet she has one of the marvellous 1-handed BH. Also, logic would have it that shorter persons should use 2-handed BH. She is short, and does not look strong and yet she has one of the best single-handed BH. Safin on the other hand does not look weak, yet he uses double handed BH. I think it is how you start as a kid. No conspiracy theories here, but now-a-days almost 100% kids are started off with double-handed BHs because it is easier for them, and later no one bothers to convert them to single-handed BHs. It's a matter of success which you do not like to halt.

NamRanger
04-08-2008, 11:01 PM
The advent of heavy topspin from synthetic strings really killed the backhand on the women's tour.


It's hard enough as a male to hit shoulder high balls with a one handed backhand, imagine reducing your strength 30% and try doing it.



Henin is deceptively strong btw, she is EXTREMELY athletic, her lack of size is the only reason why she does not dominate the WTA like Federer did for a few years.

TNT16
04-09-2008, 05:47 AM
Why tons of 2HBH and few OHBH? The answer is simple -- what do they teach to the juniors? If you go to any group teaching setting for juniors, the same cookie cutter is being applied.

Does that make the 2HBH a better stroke? Henin and Mauresmo provide the answer.

Does that make the 2HBH the easier cookie cutter stroke to teach to hundreds of young girls? Probably so.

In D Zone
04-09-2008, 12:04 PM
I think the point is not about the masculinity of a player (he / she). Its more on the time and effort (patience) it takes to learn and master the 1hbh stroke.
Two Handed Backhand is much easier to learn compared to One Handed Backhand.
Is the 1hbh weaker .... NO! Henin, Muresmo and Schiavone are the living proof.

With popularity of the power game and baseline play - One can easily see the immediate progress when playing with 2 hbh. So there is not really the need to get into the net. That is why you noticed not a lot of women pro players comfortable playing in the net which uses the skills of a one handed bh. Unless they play alot of doubles like Serena, Venus and Sugiyami.

I would point to the tennis teaching pros who are directly responsible in promoting/ teaching and also in charge of the demise of the 1hbh technique. I have attended group classes where there is really a little to no emphasis on how to play with 1hbh correctly... unless you cough up the $$ to get a private intructor - but are you really getting the correct lessons for it?
(not sure if there is such a certification already or not - since I am not a teaching pro - but here's my opinion).
There should be a movement within the USTA or the Tennis community worldwide especially among the teaching professionals in promoting a certification on one handled backhand.
In this way, the local tennis club can host classes of players who can learn and master to play with this dying art.

VGP
04-09-2008, 12:13 PM
Why tons of 2HBH and few OHBH? The answer is simple -- what do they teach to the juniors? If you go to any group teaching setting for juniors, the same cookie cutter is being applied.

Does that make the 2HBH a better stroke? Henin and Mauresmo provide the answer.

Does that make the 2HBH the easier cookie cutter stroke to teach to hundreds of young girls? Probably so.

I'll add this too:

It's about $$$$ and fame.

The quicker you learn to smack the ball, the quicker you get out on tour and start making some bank.

Admittedly, overall it takes less time to develop a good 2HBH than a good 1HBH.

The same can be said for the men these days.

In D Zone
04-09-2008, 12:24 PM
This is NOT A PITCH OF US (1HBH) VS THEM (2HBH). It's more directed to saving the art of playing the 1hbh.

BeHappy
04-10-2008, 07:27 PM
this is why

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dE6ysAKlx9k

two women who could hit the crap out of the ball in 1981, you have no idea how revolutionary this was.

TNT16
04-10-2008, 07:35 PM
this is why

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dE6ysAKlx9k

two women who could hit the crap out of the ball in 1981, you have no idea how revolutionary this was.

Yet for that era and the next 10 or 20 years one name comes to mind more than any other - N.A.V.R.A.T.I.L.O.V.A.

Love that 2HBH she was hitting . . .

BeHappy
04-10-2008, 07:44 PM
Yet for that era and the next 10 or 20 years one name comes to mind more than any other - N.A.V.R.A.T.I.L.O.V.A.

Love that 2HBH she was hitting . . .

yeah, navratilova really drove her backhand too, lol.

Navratilova had a tim henman backhand.

Tracy Austin, Eert and Andrea Jaegaer were AMERICAN.

They were women.

They were successful.

They had two handed backhands.

Austin and Jaeger actually hit the ball as hard as modern pros.They had great technique and had better groundstrkoes than many of the top men.

Evert and Jaeger were also taught by DADDY.Psycho parents everywhere decided to turn their children into carbon copies of these two.

Kids went to tennis instructors looking to learn 'The Evert Backhand'.The all conquering, (at the time), 2 handed backhand used by Evert, Austin, Jaeger, Borg and Connors.

Bollettieri serviced this demand...

Rickson
04-10-2008, 07:44 PM
this is why

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dE6ysAKlx9k

two women who could hit the crap out of the ball in 1981, you have no idea how revolutionary this was.

Is that why Andrea Jaeger became a nun? Because her 2 handed backhand was so crappy?

BeHappy
04-10-2008, 07:46 PM
Is that why Andrea Jaeger became a nun? Because her 2 handed backhand was so crappy?

does anyone have a good 2 hander rickson?

What about Agassi, does his backhand suck too?

setting you up for the obvious put down LOL

BeHappy
04-10-2008, 07:50 PM
~I've just rated this 5 stars btw, why is it 1 star?

soyizgood
04-10-2008, 11:01 PM
~I've just rated this 5 stars btw, why is it 1 star?

Probably some disgruntled OHBHer voted 1 star out of spite. We get that too on our 2HBH club, but it doesn't bother us at all. :)

The OHBHer fanatics have been giving silly answers while the mainstream folks have been rather informative. Those bitter fanatics can go hug a tree, catch a roach and let him leave their home peacefully, slice 90% of their backhands like Graf or push their backhand like Robredo, and work on their continental forehands. ;)

Sentinel
04-11-2008, 01:35 AM
I liked your original post, soy. Informative/thoughtful. Thanks for the perspective!

TNT16
04-11-2008, 05:14 AM
Probably some disgruntled OHBHer voted 1 star out of spite. We get that too on our 2HBH club, but it doesn't bother us at all. :)

The OHBHer fanatics have been giving silly answers while the mainstream folks have been rather informative. Those bitter fanatics can go hug a tree, catch a roach and let him leave their home peacefully, slice 90% of their backhands like Graf or push their backhand like Robredo, and work on their continental forehands. ;)

Wow - interesting perspective.

I do agree though, Henin really only pushes or slices her backhands and it is amazing how she can get away with the continental grip forehand.

Same for Mauresmo btw.

Rickson
04-11-2008, 06:12 AM
Wow - interesting perspective.

I do agree though, Henin really only pushes or slices her backhands and it is amazing how she can get away with the continental grip forehand.

Same for Mauresmo btw.

Sarcasm, I sense.

-Yoda-

Djokovicfan4life
04-11-2008, 08:06 AM
Ha, so now we're continental grip users? The continental is more of an abomination than the eastern forehand.

soyizgood
04-11-2008, 08:27 AM
Ha, so now we're continental grip users? The continental is more of an abomination than the eastern forehand.

The continental remark was a jab for all the "history" the OHBHers like to bring up as an argument for the OHBH as well as against the 2HBH. Much of the OHBHs glory days composed of players playing continental for forehands and backhands. The good olde days of wearing all white shirts/sweaters/trousers, ankle high dresses, wood racquets, serving underhand, serve and volley/chip and charge to avoid using the backhand, and only grass/clay courts, to name a few. ;)

Djokovicfan4life
04-11-2008, 08:36 AM
When did people ever serve underhanded? :confused:

soyizgood
04-11-2008, 09:01 AM
When did people ever serve underhanded? :confused:

Look back at the history and you'll see that tennis started off with people serving underhanded.

Djokovicfan4life
04-11-2008, 09:03 AM
Santoro would have LOVED that, just another way to mess with his opponents! :twisted:

soyizgood
04-11-2008, 09:15 AM
Santoro would have LOVED that, just another way to mess with his opponents! :twisted:

It's still legal to use underhanded serves. I had a tennis teacher in his 50s that did that and he put a good amount of side spin on it.

Rickson
04-11-2008, 09:43 AM
It's still legal to use underhanded serves. I had a tennis teacher in his 50s that did that and he put a good amount of side spin on it.

Soy, you have to learn an overhand serve one of these days.

soyizgood
04-11-2008, 03:19 PM
this is why

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dE6ysAKlx9k

two women who could hit the crap out of the ball in 1981, you have no idea how revolutionary this was.

I forgot about Jaeger. Then again I was only 4 when this match was played. They really hit hard with those old sticks. Heavy topspin and depth as well even on grass.

Forehand Forever
04-11-2008, 04:04 PM
This doesn't have to do with the WTA tour but the juniors coming up that will play on the WTA. Many of the girls are using both hands on both sides. I think that eventually, the womens game will have many, many more of these players.

soyizgood
04-11-2008, 04:10 PM
This doesn't have to do with the WTA tour but the juniors coming up that will play on the WTA. Many of the girls are using both hands on both sides. I think that eventually, the womens game will have many, many more of these players.

Hopefully those girls that choose two-hands on both sides take after Seles rather than Bartoli...haha

Other than stability, I can't really see much of an advantage of playing two-handed forehands. Bartoli looks like a pusher, but then again her conditioning leaves MUCH to be desired.

Djokovicfan4life
04-11-2008, 05:51 PM
Hopefully those girls that choose two-hands on both sides take after Seles rather than Bartoli...haha

Other than stability, I can't really see much of an advantage of playing two-handed forehands. Bartoli looks like a pusher, but then again her conditioning leaves MUCH to be desired.

If not two hands on the forehand, then why the backhand? :confused:

Tennisman912
04-11-2008, 06:04 PM
TNT16,

I sure hope you are kidding about Henin and Mauresmo using a continental forehand.

Djokovicfan4life
04-11-2008, 06:06 PM
TNT16,

I sure hope you are kidding about Henin and Mauresmo using a continental forehand.

He is, no one's that stupid.

soyizgood
04-11-2008, 07:45 PM
This doesn't have to do with the WTA tour but the juniors coming up that will play on the WTA. Many of the girls are using both hands on both sides. I think that eventually, the womens game will have many, many more of these players.

I've seen 2 young girls that get private lessons. These skinny little girls couldn't be older than 7 or 8, but they hit the crap out of the ball with their forehands and backhands. They even grunt, but not at the Serena/Seles/Sharapova decibel level yet. I'm pretty sure they smack harder than the 14 year old girl I hit around with at times. And that 14 year old hits quite hard, but not so consistent. If the young girls I see are a barometer, I don't see a renaissance for the OHBH coming anytime soon for the Women's game.

BeHappy
04-11-2008, 07:49 PM
What's going on?

I already explained why the OHBH has given way to the 2HBH on the WTA, why hasn't this thread been locked?



joking

Rickson
04-11-2008, 11:12 PM
Probably some disgruntled OHBHer voted 1 star out of spite. We get that too on our 2HBH club, but it doesn't bother us at all. :)


Well it wasn't me. I didn't even vote on your thread so don't throw any allegations my way.

Sentinel
04-12-2008, 12:22 AM
I gave you 5-stars, soy.

Rickson
04-12-2008, 12:25 AM
I gave you 5-stars, soy.

Should I even it out in that case?

Sentinel
04-12-2008, 02:01 AM
Should I even it out in that case?
With as many usernames as you have, Ace, LOL.

Josherer
04-12-2008, 04:54 AM
Capriati, Serena, Kuznetsova, and Venus could kick the crud out of 90+% of the ATP players in a brawl. They certainly aren't weak.

Federer probably can't even bench press 1/2 as much as Safin, Nadal, or Roddick. Gasquet I doubt could even bench press 75% of his weight. Federer and Gasquet don't come off as manly and are very soft-spoken.

Anyway, I'm not surprised by your response. Just like Breakpoint, you twist the question and shoot blanks elsewhere...LMAO


HAHA your hilarious!

Rickson
04-12-2008, 05:57 AM
With as many usernames as you have, Ace, LOL.


Look at my post count and you'll see there can be only one.

soyizgood
05-14-2008, 04:34 PM
I didn't expect Henin's retirement to come so soon. That said, the OHBH is in exile on the WTA.

Political Thunder
05-14-2008, 05:17 PM
#20 FRANCESCA SCHIAVONE (ITA)

Is the next top WTA player to have 1bh after Henin.

kungfusmkim
05-15-2008, 04:43 PM
I think alot of it had come from the Seles inspiration. About when Williams sisters, Davenport was around 11 or 12 they would have seen Seles play. If you ask many women player about their idol its Seles, except one famous welknown player, Justine Henin. Justine henin in an press conference after a doubles charity play with Graf and Agassi even said Graf was her rolemodel. Then you have Jankovic, sharapova and Hantuchova who all agreed their hero was Seles in series of interviews

kungfusmkim
05-15-2008, 04:43 PM
There is also Eleni Danilidou who has a one hander

orangettecoleman
05-15-2008, 11:58 PM
technology made passing shots so easy that any girl who isn't the size of venus williams will get passed if they try to serve and volley. therefore most of the girls started concentrating on baseline tennis exclusively and for most people that means a two handed backhand. keep in mind that virtually everyone learns the 2 hander first now, and if one doesn't intend to come in a lot then there's no real reason to switch. so i think it basically comes down to the 2 hander becoming the commonly taught method in the late 80s and early 90s.

soyizgood
10-21-2008, 10:03 AM
I may be wrong, but at the moment only one woman in the top 25 uses a 1HBH and Mauresmo is barely in it at #24.

Spokewench
10-21-2008, 10:27 AM
Rickson - How f_ing old are you? You act and talk like a spoiled 5 year old. You are finally going on my ignore list!

I'm sure that there was some progression of teaching wisdom that deemed the 2 handed backhand to be a be a better shot for women at some time and that is why we see more 2 handed backhanded women. I'm not that up on tennis history so I'm not sure what it is; but I'm sure someone with more knowledge could tell us what that progression is - without falling into some moronic discussion about women being girly (does this mean they are immature?) or some other stupid A-- comments!

El Pelele
10-21-2008, 10:38 AM
Hey, is it true that Rickson, when he plays with other guys or kids with 2hbh's, he tells them "2 hbackhands are for girls, use a one hander!" and that's why he beats them? lol

Element54
10-21-2008, 12:01 PM
I'm sure that there was some progression of teaching wisdom that deemed the 2 handed backhand to be a be a better shot for women at some time and that is why we see more 2 handed backhanded women.

In my opinion this is pretty much the answer, coaching could possibly be primarily 2BH's for women/girls.

halalula1234
10-22-2008, 02:42 AM
its yummy to see a 1 handed lady only if she suits it..i dont think bartoli will look so pretty hitting a 1 hander. a flying elephant

Underhand
10-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Bartoli is an Imperial Walker, not elephant

S H O W S T O P P E R !
10-22-2008, 05:37 PM
Everyone in the WTA plays baseline basher. the 2HBH is more powerful, simple.

orangettecoleman
10-22-2008, 08:40 PM
emilie loit hits 1hbh slice about 98 percent of the time...

CoachNC
10-22-2008, 08:53 PM
I think alot of it had come from the Seles inspiration. About when Williams sisters, Davenport was around 11 or 12 they would have seen Seles play. If you ask many women player about their idol its Seles, except one famous welknown player, Justine Henin. Justine henin in an press conference after a doubles charity play with Graf and Agassi even said Graf was her rolemodel. Then you have Jankovic, sharapova and Hantuchova who all agreed their hero was Seles in series of interviews

Agree.

I think Evert, Austin....connect...Seles....
Also, on the man side, Borg, Conners, ......
Slam prices go up!
More TV,
Jr start early....

I see more Jr ranked girls following Henin now....
I have two Jr ranked girls insist 1hbh....

split-step
10-22-2008, 09:22 PM
Women are expected to show results earlier than their male counterparts, if they are to show any promise. 2HBH+baseline bashing game = quicker results.

It takes longer to hone a 1HBH all-court game and many are not willing to take the risk.

Henin is an exception, even among 1 handers because that stroke is completely natural to her. She has been hitting the shot since she was 6. She says coaches tried to get her to change to 2 hands and she would always go back to one hand.
She obviously has the natural timing for the shot, which is why she can use that extreme grip and hang and even be aggressive against some of the heaviest hitters ever in the women's game.

What Henin has that also helps her 1HBH game (and what any future female 1hander HAS to possess) is incredible fitness and movement.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=3pfE7gCnWIo&fmt=18

halalula1234
10-23-2008, 02:54 AM
lisa raymond uses the 1hbh

soyizgood
10-28-2008, 01:38 PM
Curious. When was the last time a woman not named Henin or Mauresmo won a tier-1 or major with a OHBH? I know Graf is the last OHBH not named those two to win a major.