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View Full Version : New serve videos (much better, lots of work to be done)


Eph
04-09-2008, 01:52 PM
I tried my best to incorporate the tips given. I think my biggest problem now is 1) no backscratch and 2) little power.

I also seem to let the hand fall behind me prematurely, I am not sure though if it is too early.

What do you think?

Personally, I noticed a HUGE difference. I don't have the speed (and I need to get that), but I could see the ball actually well over the net instead of an inch or two above and then hitting down going straight for the fence. It was actually incredible to see the first time. One thing: my wrist, if I don't hit it exactly, my wrist suffers (from pain). What am I doing wrong here; I know the pros can't be hurting after every serve. Every one of my serves had a nice slice to it; I could only hit one or two up the line, most were falling in that little corner box. I didn't really notice much of a difference between either side when serving; they both seemed natural.

It does not look like I am shifting my weight... Agree/disagree? What do I do about that? Nor does it look like I am rotating my body. Suggestions?

I also worked on bringing my feet closer together and I can see a HUGE difference when they are more than shoulder width apart when serving.

As an aside, I saw my knee surgeon today and he sent me to get another brace, but he thinks I may not even need it. (He actually said "whatever you are doing, keep doing it") We're going to fill in a cavity of fluid or tissue buildup to make the tibia solid again in about 6 weeks in which I only have to stop tennis for two weeks.

Like before, please don't be gentle and tell me what you think. I need all the suggestions I can get to improve my game. I am dedicated, and I am trying. My main complaint is the hurting wrist and the lack of speed. My contact point certainly seems *much* higher.

From the left side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfVUP0lB-d4

From the right side: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e4oPNJrolA

Thanks in advance.

nickb
04-09-2008, 01:57 PM
Hi,

I know this has nothing to do with technique but if that is a K Factor Tour 90 you really should look into something with a bigger headsize that is more forgiving. Most advanced players have trouble using that racket.

The K90 has a small headsize which can make things harder than they should be...even more so for a beginner.

Just friendly advice..

Good luck,

Nick

hyogen
04-09-2008, 02:00 PM
wrist hurting? you're using too heavy of a racquet and the K90 is a very stiff racquet. like nickb said, looks like you need to be using a lighter and more flexible racquet. I would go with an oversize for you (110 or 107). You'll be able to develop better technique and get more speed and fix your wrist problem.

Eph
04-09-2008, 02:03 PM
Hi,

I know this has nothing to do with technique but if that is a K Factor Tour 90 you really should look into something with a bigger headsize that is more forgiving. Most advanced players have trouble using that racket.

The K90 has a small headsize which can make things harder than they should be...even more so for a beginner.

Just friendly advice..

Good luck,

Nick

I have no desire to change racquets - for my own reason. Technique is what I need help on.

And if you get too light a racquet, you run into other sorts of problems.

Doc Hollidae
04-09-2008, 02:06 PM
wrist hurting? you're using too heavy of a racquet and the K90 is a very stiff racquet. like nickb said, looks like you need to be using a lighter and more flexible racquet. I would go with an oversize for you (110 or 107). You'll be able to develop better technique and get more speed and fix your wrist problem.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

nickb
04-09-2008, 02:09 PM
I have no desire to change racquets - for my own reason. Technique is what I need help on.

And if you get too light a racquet, you run into other sorts of problems.

You can use what you want..its up to you.

"is the hurting wrist and the lack of speed."

Im not saying get a light racket...a more flexible frame with a bigger headsize would be better.

I'm a 5.0+ player...I have given up the K90 as it is too demanding.

Nick

FEDEX1
04-09-2008, 02:10 PM
ya a person at you're level really shouldn't be playing with a racquet like that. i agree with past posters, an oversize racquet would be good for you. and something lighter...but on youre serve you more knee bend could help and jumping into the court not just staying flat on the ground...if you can get you're weight moving forward into the ball more that will produce more power...also, im not sure about this one but it doesnt look like youre using the continental grip. correct me if im wrong tho it just doesnt look continental to me

hyogen
04-09-2008, 02:14 PM
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

? did i say something funny?

hyogen
04-09-2008, 02:16 PM
I have no desire to change racquets - for my own reason. Technique is what I need help on.

And if you get too light a racquet, you run into other sorts of problems.

what reason? because Roger Federer uses it? because he's #1?

You've chosen a racquet that's far too heavy for you...so why not switch to something more in the middle?

Eph
04-09-2008, 02:19 PM
what reason? because Roger Federer uses it? because he's #1?

You've chosen a racquet that's far too heavy for you...so why not switch to something more in the middle?

Yup, you got it.

If anybody wants to offer advice about my technique, that would be great.

Thanks

Bungalo Bill
04-09-2008, 02:22 PM
I have no desire to change racquets - for my own reason. Technique is what I need help on.

And if you get too light a racquet, you run into other sorts of problems.

Haha, good answer Eph! Still though their advice on racquets wasn't incorrect either. It seems you simply like your racquet.

Onward to the land of technique.

Your motion is slightly more fluid. So congrats, however, we arent out of the weeds yet. :)

Here are your goals:

1. Be comfortable with and move to the continental grip by June 1.

2. Develop upper body movement that swings the racquet properly in a continuous motion (no hitches or slow downs) by June 1

3. Study slo-motion professional upper body arm movement and racquet position and duplicate that beginning with a slow deliberate motion. On-going

4. Build a tool to help with the process. Get a flexible rope and make it slightly longer then your racquet. Attach a ball to the string by poking holes through it and bringing the rope through it so that it is secure. Swing the rope imitating a serve motion, and have no slack in the rope. You will use the exact arm motion a pro uses. By April 12th.

5. Serve policy: I will no longer use the Eastern grip and will duplicate to the best of my ability a professional players arm swing and racquet movement.

6. Study Policy: I will continuously compare my serve to a pros serve to master the basic fundamentals of how a racquet swings around. If I have trouble, I will shadow practice the motion in a mirror or whatever is necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWC1hcKBh4g&feature=related

You need to especially watch how Federers arm sort of collapses allowing the racquet to drop vs. your waiters grip motion.

Here is another reference for study:
http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/index.php?col=260823

Eph
04-09-2008, 02:29 PM
>>It seems you simply like your racquet. <<

I do like the racquet but it has more to do with being taught to use the best equipment in any sport - even if it is over your level - to play the best possible. Just like when I learned how to play chess, I played against those with 2000+ ratings - you get much better, much quicker.

Are you saying I am still using the eastern grip?

By developing the upper body motion, will that allow for a more powerful, flat serve?

Thanks.

nickb
04-09-2008, 02:36 PM
>>It seems you simply like your racquet. <<

I do like the racquet but it has more to do with being taught to use the best equipment in any sport - even if it is over your level - to play the best possible. Just like when I learned how to play chess, I played against those with 2000+ ratings - you get much better, much quicker.

Are you saying I am still using the eastern grip?

By developing the upper body motion, will that allow for a more powerful, flat serve?

Thanks.

You have it all wrong...its the player not the racket.

Just because the K 90 is $200 does not mean its the best racket for you.

Good tennis players can use anything...I know..I have been beaten 6-0 by players using 250g granny sticks (most have been)

Using the K Tour 90 could slow down your progress not speed it up.

Just an example for you...my coach (ex ATP player) uses a 270g Babolat....he played top 50 doubles....its not all about flashy expensive rackets.

Nick

hyogen
04-09-2008, 02:51 PM
>>It seems you simply like your racquet. <<

I do like the racquet but it has more to do with being taught to use the best equipment in any sport - even if it is over your level - to play the best possible. Just like when I learned how to play chess, I played against those with 2000+ ratings - you get much better, much quicker.

Are you saying I am still using the eastern grip?

By developing the upper body motion, will that allow for a more powerful, flat serve?

Thanks.

didn't mean to be too offensive there. and as some people will note, any advice given by me will be considered "blind leading the blind".

check out my vids if you care to have a look. this isn't my best serving stick...I serve best with a more stiff and extended length racquet--for example the TT warrior OS. how do i know? huge increase in 2nd serve aces and first serve aces as well as sharp decrease in first serve faults.

PT280 serving after a couple weeks:
far view serve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pU9zaZaA3w
rear view serve: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWm9J4B_tr4
left and right angle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLz8XdQpssI

I actually agree with your philosophy which you have been taught. No one had to teach me that...it is just my natural thinking. Probably due to succumbing to the media/advertisement/endorsements. But to me, I'd rather learn and get better by practicing a video game, for example, on the most difficult level, etc. Also, for tennis I want to use a racquet that the pros have actually used to become successful with...Not some racquet that has been painted and advertised to make people believe the pro's use it. This is why I'm pretty much choosing the head pt280 even though I can hit better with the Pure Storm Team. I know for a fact that pros still use the PT280 today and even up 'n coming juniors like Donald Young. There's gotta be some sort of quality in that racquet that an imitation or a newly made racquet with all the fancy technologies cannot reproduce.

I AGREE with those who are emphasizing technique over equipment. But I know where you are coming from.

here is my advice on the K90. If you research a little bit on these forums, you'll learn pretty quickly that Federer isn't even using this racquet. He's using an older racquet that is painted to look like a K90 (so Wilson can sell more racquets).

Many players on this board who are more advanced than me have trouble using the K90... in all their experience and coaching and practicing--the K90 is simply too advanced and is not suitable for the vast majority of people who try to use it.

I'm at work so I can't see your video, but you probably want BB's technique advice more than mine. My advice is to pick a racquet that someone in the top 10 uses. a Prince O3 Pro Tour (Davydenko) or LiquidMetal Instinct (Gasquet)..older AeroPro Drive without Cortex (Nadal). By choosing one of these more user friendly racquets, you're not gonna be shortchanging yourself because you're not using the racquet that the world #1 is using (or is advertised to be using). Just my 3 cents ;)

just saw nickb's post. I 100% agree that using the K90 will only slow your progress and stunt the potential you can have.

tiC.taX
04-09-2008, 02:52 PM
I agree with nickb...

There is no "best" racquet; it is entirely dynamic and depends on how you play.

drakulie
04-09-2008, 02:58 PM
First off, hats off to you! You have a great attitude. Forget about the frame talk, and concentrate on your technique.

Good work on switching to a more neutral grip for the serve. However, it seems like you haven't moved over far enough for it to be a continental.


Just follow BB's advice.
Good luck.

Vision84
04-09-2008, 03:00 PM
You still appear to be using an eastern grip to me. Your racket is facing to much to the ground on the left side of you. If you put the racket across you with the ball over the strings when you line up to serve you should have it pointed a bit towards the ground on your right side when using the continental. A good indicator.

The racket handle is divided into 8 sides. Each side is called a bevel. The top bevel that is in line with the frame of the stick is called bevel number 1. The bevel one to the right of this is called bevel number 2. This is where you want to place your knuckles along. At the moment it appears your knuckles are along bevel number 3 which is one more to the right and is an eastern grip. If you are struggling to maintain this then simply wrap your third finger over your thumb which should help prevent you from subconsciously slipping towards an eastern.

If you try serving and pronating on our serve with a continental grip then the ball should be going further left than you aim with some slice on the ball. That is a good indicator you have the right grip

Bungalo Bill
04-09-2008, 03:02 PM
I do like the racquet but it has more to do with being taught to use the best equipment in any sport - even if it is over your level - to play the best possible. Just like when I learned how to play chess, I played against those with 2000+ ratings - you get much better, much quicker.

That is fine. I happen to like my racquet too and would not switch. :) However, the posters here also have a point. When I learned golf, I didnt buy blades, I instead bought something I could handle.

If you think you can handle the racquet at your current level then that is okay.

Are you saying I am still using the eastern grip?

Well it certainly looked like you were, were you? As you move forward some questions are going to be reveresed back to you. This is so you can question yourself regarding being in the right grip, etc...Did you do research from yesterday or so to find out the Continental grip?

By developing the upper body motion, will that allow for a more powerful, flat serve?

Eventually. Currently, your arm slows down a lot and your palm faces the sky just before the racquet drops into the so-called "backscratch" position. Watch the vidoeon Federer and yours and notice how different the arm movement is and the pattern Federers motion makes compared to yours. Follow the hand pattern and you can duplicate that without a racquet.

Eph
04-09-2008, 03:17 PM
You have it all wrong...its the player not the racket.

Just because the K 90 is $200 does not mean its the best racket for you.

Good tennis players can use anything...I know..I have been beaten 6-0 by players using 250g granny sticks (most have been)

Using the K Tour 90 could slow down your progress not speed it up.

Just an example for you...my coach (ex ATP player) uses a 270g Babolat....he played top 50 doubles....its not all about flashy expensive rackets.

Nick

That's wonderful. Please stick to the technique, but since you seem so keen on not, don't respond.

junbumkim
04-09-2008, 03:20 PM
Your tossing arm is stilling going behind your body.
This should be the EASIEST fix. It's good that your bring your hand down, but it needs to stay on the FRONT side of the body.

You still have your first yeepy knee bend before the toss. You need to get rid of it if you want more fluid motion. You bend your knees, get up, toss the ball and hit. This is NOT the way you do it. Watch the clip of Sampras serve.
Your weight should be shifting from the back foot to the front foot. As you shift your weight, your tossing arm should go up along with the left side of your hip stretching. That is how you get the motion with knee bend.

Your toss seems a little higher, and not too much in front. That seems good.

Also, you seem to try to get your legs involved in the serve, but you are doing it in a wrong way. You shouldn't need to jump like that to hit a serve. Right now, try to serve with your left leg staying on the ground. Your right leg will naturally come around after the contact.

Also, why is your followthrough end on your right side not on your left side?
It's almost as if you are forcing it. It should finish on your left life. I am not sure if it has to do with your toss position or what...

Your stance seems a little more of shoulder width than the last time...It still seems a tad bit wide, but if you are comfortable, it's ok..

what grip are you using now? You don't seem to be using the sw grip as you were last time. Continental? Eastern Forehand?

Essential Tennis
04-09-2008, 04:05 PM
Eph,

Obviously you're taking this seriously, you went out the next day and switched your grip which is great, my hat is off to you. My next two suggestions for technique to you are this:

1. As you make your swing at the ball, your body is still moving downwards. If you watch slow motion video of any pro's serve, you will see a load and drop of the body and legs leading up to the swing, and then the entire body is being uncoiled and stretched upwards towards the ball. After contact, everything comes back down again. At contact and immediately after, your body is scrunched up and bent because its already coming downwards before you even make contact. You need to train your body to coil and tilt back, and then back upwards towards contact, rather than tossing, and hitting while your body slouches down.

2. Great job switching the grip. Now you need to relax your arm, shoulder, forearm and hand. This is why in my first post to you I suggested going half speed for a good amount of time until you get the feel for the new grip. Your range of motion is suffering because you're trying so hard to swing at the ball. Slow down and keep your arm and shoulder completely relaxed while you work on moving upwards towards the ball. Hopefully as you get more comfortable your racket will start dropping farther back behind you leading to longer range of motion and better usage of your body.

Where are your serves going now that you've switched your grip?

nickb
04-10-2008, 05:04 AM
That's wonderful. Please stick to the technique, but since you seem so keen on not, don't respond.

You will find out for yourself soon enough.

Good luck swinging that log around....if you have all the time in the world to get better at tennis thats great.

BTW there was no need to be rude...my comments where just my opinion..I was trying to help.

Please post back when your a 6.0

Cheers

Nellie
04-10-2008, 07:20 AM
A couple of quick thoughts for you:

1) you are opening your shoulders too early. By this, I see that you are tossing the ball with your shoulders closed (left shoulder pointed to the net) and then immeadiately turn you body so that your chest is pointed to the net as you are still bringing the racquet up and behind your head. As a result, you are getting no energy to the ball from this motion, because you then settle with that chest open to the net, and then swing with your arms. For example, if you stop the second video at about 7 second, you will see that you are still loading up for the contact but already turned to the ball. In contrast, the better servers wait to rotate the body until after the shoulders and arms start firing so that the torso rotation and arm extension are one motion to combine the forces.

2) your racquet does not accelerate at contact, but instead is slowing down, as can be seen by the racquet finish near your shoulder height.

3) You are dropping your head prior to contact and pulling down on the ball. Instead, hit the ball at your high point and then follow through by pulling forward and down to complete your forward and rotational weight transfer.

4) I really like that you are trying to shift your weight from left to right and step through, but the timing seems slightly off and late because the weight shift appears after contact.

So in summary, it appears that you are trying to make good changes, but your muscle memory is holding yuo back because the primary service motion looks similar to your video from a couple days ago. You are doing a nice shoulder rotation, but before the serve contact. You are doing a nice weight shift, but after the serve contact.

Instead, think of your goal of putting every once of energy in your body into that raquet at the point of contact with the motion before building up to the contact and the motion after being a relaxation and natural outcome of that contact.

Good luck.

charaseac
04-10-2008, 08:43 AM
>>It seems you simply like your racquet. <<

I do like the racquet but it has more to do with being taught to use the best equipment in any sport - even if it is over your level - to play the best possible. Just like when I learned how to play chess, I played against those with 2000+ ratings - you get much better, much quicker.

Are you saying I am still using the eastern grip?

By developing the upper body motion, will that allow for a more powerful, flat serve?

Thanks.

Hahahah i like how hard headed you are.
Well i believe you have more reason than just "liking the racket" which u can't tell us...

If you stick to it so much just because you like it.. then you are one tough customer lol...

Your reasoning from chess example is irrelevant. From that example you yourself admit that it's the player, not the equipment. In chess it doesnt matter whwether you are using gold plated chess set or a chess set made of labeled used alkaline batteries. ITs the opponent that matters. in tennis racket does matter, you need a racket that you can handle and you can use, and you need an opponent who can teach you. like what you stated, a beginner playing with beginner will only result in the blind leading the blind.

Now, i'm a beginner too (been playing for a year only) and im using ksix one 95. I'm one of the lucky bunch because my roomates are solid players. theyve been playing since they were like 5 or so and they can teach me.

OK just so that u wont say rude thing on me, i'll give you advice:

For your serve, look for consistencies. This is the thing i learned a lot when i teach myself serving. First thing i did, i look at all the serve videos, trying my best to memorize all the techniques and use it. I went to the court early in the morning when no one is around with a bucket full of balls. trying to find my most comfortable serve and replicate it over and over again until i can do it consistently. I'm still working on that but im pretty sure that my serve is quite consistent. That is one thing that i can tell u from my experience

For the racket thing. k61 90 is a great racket. And its good if you like it. but if you have extra money, think about investing on more forgiving racket just for now. Consider it for your second racket. probably for playing doubles when you need extra maneuverability. when your technique is solid, then you can always go back to your 90. I did that too, and now im doing fine with both my rackets, i use my k61 95 when i play singles and against opponent with big serve and power (I found that 95 can return heavy balls effortlessly) and i use my friends aero pro (have one lying around house so i just use it) when i need extra maneuverability against faster opponent.

Im not a pro, im just sharing you what i already did. If you dont like it, please refrain from rude comments. Thanks

Doc Hollidae
04-10-2008, 09:58 AM
? did i say something funny?

You're the last person that should be giving racket advice.

hyogen
04-10-2008, 10:06 AM
You're the last person that should be giving racket advice.

wow, harsh statement

Nellie
04-10-2008, 10:35 AM
Who cares what racquet the guy is using? If he he was hitting late/limp in wrist, missing the raquet, etc, you could suggest that he had too heavy of a racquet. His racquet choice is so unrelated to his technique problems (passive aggressive comment:-)) that it is inane to bring it up.

Doc Hollidae
04-10-2008, 10:56 AM
I actually agree with your philosophy which you have been taught. No one had to teach me that...it is just my natural thinking. Probably due to succumbing to the media/advertisement/endorsements. But to me, I'd rather learn and get better by practicing a video game, for example, on the most difficult level, etc. Also, for tennis I want to use a racquet that the pros have actually used to become successful with...Not some racquet that has been painted and advertised to make people believe the pro's use it. This is why I'm pretty much choosing the head pt280 even though I can hit better with the Pure Storm Team. I know for a fact that pros still use the PT280 today and even up 'n coming juniors like Donald Young. There's gotta be some sort of quality in that racquet that an imitation or a newly made racquet with all the fancy technologies cannot reproduce.

I AGREE with those who are emphasizing technique over equipment. But I know where you are coming from.

here is my advice on the K90. If you research a little bit on these forums, you'll learn pretty quickly that Federer isn't even using this racquet. He's using an older racquet that is painted to look like a K90 (so Wilson can sell more racquets).

Many players on this board who are more advanced than me have trouble using the K90... in all their experience and coaching and practicing--the K90 is simply too advanced and is not suitable for the vast majority of people who try to use it.

I'm at work so I can't see your video, but you probably want BB's technique advice more than mine. My advice is to pick a racquet that someone in the top 10 uses. a Prince O3 Pro Tour (Davydenko) or LiquidMetal Instinct (Gasquet)..older AeroPro Drive without Cortex (Nadal). By choosing one of these more user friendly racquets, you're not gonna be shortchanging yourself because you're not using the racquet that the world #1 is using (or is advertised to be using). Just my 3 cents ;)

just saw nickb's post. I 100% agree that using the K90 will only slow your progress and stunt the potential you can have.

You don't buy rackets because they are what pros play with. Just because they can doesn't mean you can. When choosing a racket, you should choose what feels best in your hand and what you have the most confidence in. Demoing unbiasedly with a wide range of specifications is the best way to find the racket that fits you best. Nadal plays with an APDC, but that might not fit a flat hitting, serve and volleyer.


To the OP,
You have the right attitude and sounds like you're dedicated to improving and not using your equipment as a crutch. However, do consider that the K90 could potentially stunt your improvement or put a ceiling on your potential. I'm not sure how many other rackets you've hit with or demoed, but in the future you might want to demo other rackets later on. You might find that while the K90 felt great and serves you well, there's a better match for your game after it's developed.

Other than that, enjoy the game. Bungalo Bill, Nellie, and Essential Tennis already provided great advice so that's a great starting point.

tennisfan_23
04-10-2008, 11:37 AM
Eph,

I agree with most of the people on this board regarding the racquet choice. HOWEVER, I do respect your reasons for using it. Everybody has their preferences and if yours is to use the k90, good on ya. Just know that it definitely WOULD be helpful to play with an oversize to start with, but whatever you use is of your own volition.

In terms of your service motion, there are just a few kinks to work out before you start tackling more advanced details. Firstly, your toss is alright. If you aren't using your fingertips to hold the ball (I can't tell), you should do so because it really helps the release.

The most important thing that you need improvement on at the beginning stages of the serve is where you drop your tossing hand. You seem to be dropping it on the left side of your body instead of down by your inner right thigh region. If you correct this, you'll find that your balance will be much better and your motion much more fluid.

Speaking of motion fluidity, you seem to hesitate before you perform your toss. Let your hand fall in front of you, then raise both arms at once as you toss. Don't be afraid, just go for a more fluid motion and that'll also help your balance and power as you get to the later stages of the serve.j

Ummm I have more to say but I think that tennis - like chess, or whatever else - requires a lot of work and it's step by step. Don't expect to perform a 4 move checkmate when you haven't even deployed your pawns, ya know? (Not a huge chess person so I don't know if I'm getting these terms right).


Anyhow, keep up the good work, it's always, ALWAYS encouraging to see people playing tennis because it really is such a great sport.

rockbox
04-10-2008, 12:16 PM
I don't think you should dwell on his racquet. Many of us started playing with wood racquets which were much more difficult to play with than the racquet he is playing with. I remember a time when people used to tease people that played with OS POGs since it was considered a "cheater racquet" that rich women(they used to cost over $200 in the early 80's) played with.

watermantra
04-10-2008, 12:34 PM
4. Build a tool to help with the process. Get a flexible rope and make it slightly longer then your racquet. Attach a ball to the string by poking holes through it and bringing the rope through it so that it is secure. Swing the rope imitating a serve motion, and have no slack in the rope. You will use the exact arm motion a pro uses. By April 12th.

This will do more to help you build a fluid motion than anything you're doing now, in my opinion. I think that poor timing and a jerky motion are causing you to plateau. When you first make this device, it will seem impossible! Keep at it.

5. Serve policy: I will no longer use the Eastern grip and will duplicate to the best of my ability a professional players arm swing and racquet movement.

It looks as if you might be using an slightly continental grip, though you are gripping the racquet like it's a thirty pound sledgehammer. Spread those fingers out and relax the grip and wrist a bit.

6. Study Policy: I will continuously compare my serve to a pros serve to master the basic fundamentals of how a racquet swings around. If I have trouble, I will shadow practice the motion in a mirror or whatever is necessary.


Excellent tips.

I would add that you should examine your knee bend. It is happening at the wrong time in the serve motion, which is, I believe, contributing to your jerkyness and odd timing. Your knee bend is happening before you toss. It should happen just after the toss, which will time the straightening of you legs with the upward motion of the racquet. This will add power to your serve virtually effortlessly.

The last thing is that you seem to be hitting out instead of up. Keep that toss arm up for longer so that 1) it helps you to think "up" and 2) so that as you pull it down into your body, it will stop the rotation of your shoulder, causing the arm to "whip" through the ball.

smoothtennis
04-10-2008, 02:10 PM
Eph - Good job and great attitude on going out and doing more work and video. Hey, I DO see a positive difference, regardless of how many more changes you plan to make, so KUDOS on the work.

I watched over and over, and finally saw what was kinda bugging me in your motion. Good news - it's easy to fix.

We already established previously that you were doing a curtsey, which is gone by the time you swing, ie - all loading in the legs has dissapated by the time you swing. So thats that. So here is what I am hoping you might try, and should smooth you out even more.

Don't bend the knees right now at all. All that is doing *today* is complicating your toss, and adding in a 'hitch' to your service motion. When you do incorporate a poper knee bend later, you'll have to replace the curtsey anyways or it won't work. So go ahead, and just get rid of it now, you don't need it.

Your toss should smooth out instantly if you try this. Can't hurt to try.

When you do add in the knee bend later, you will find, that you toss, and bend down or load in one motion, or toss and THEN load the legs... and then everything will be coming up together to hit the ball.

Today if you watch the vid again, you will see that you currently bend first, THEN toss as you are straightening the legs or 'coming up'. Right...you don't want that hitch getting ingrained, because you have to change it later regardless.

Hope that helps some. I wonder what BB thinks of this advice - Bill?

PS. Don't worry about the racket, I play with that stick. I've played with a LOT of sticks over the years. Don't take offense at all the racket talk, we just can't help it, we are tennis fanatics ok? LOL. One thing I think these guys are trying to say in tennis, is that no one racket is the BEST. If there was one like that, well, every pro would use the same one. The rackets are geared toward skill, comfort, and swing styles- so there is only one best one for YOU. And that can change as you develop better skills. It takes a while to find out what all that means, so don't worry - I know you aren't. Yes, a larger head will help many players develop faster, but don't be offended by these statements.

Keep working hard - you made good progress.

smoothtennis
04-10-2008, 02:16 PM
Watermantra said

I would add that you should examine your knee bend. It is happening at the wrong time in the serve motion, which is, I believe, contributing to your jerkyness and odd timing. Your knee bend is happening before you toss. It should happen just after the toss, which will time the straightening of you legs with the upward motion of the racquet. This will add power to your serve virtually effortlessly.


Yep - ok, so that's three people who see this. I just saw this after posting. That is exactly what I was seeing. I played with it myself here, and realize he has to eliminate that completely before doing a knee bend like the pro's.

That really should smooth his motion out immediately. I look forward to another vid incorporating this - this one's easy.

Bungalo Bill
04-10-2008, 02:57 PM
When you do add in the knee bend later, you will find, that you toss, and bend down or load in one motion, or toss and THEN load the legs... and then everything will be coming up together to hit the ball.

Today if you watch the vid again, you will see that you currently bend first, THEN toss as you are straightening the legs or 'coming up'. Right...you don't want that hitch getting ingrained, because you have to change it later regardless.

Hope that helps some. I wonder what BB thinks of this advice - Bill?

I think you provided excellent advice. I think the poster needs to work on his arm motion without the legs so much involved or the toss. He has already engrained many things that are hurting him (i.e. curtsey, improper toss timing, eastern grip, waiters motion, lack of upward movement, etc...)

The serve is the most complicated stroke to teach. It has so many elements in one fluid motion that it many times overwhelms students. I am very careful in suggesting changes because there isn't any independent motion in the serve.

A grip change for example will take probably at least a month to get used to. The arm motion will take some time as well. Learning to toss while your front hip outstreches and your knees bend is another aspect of learning.

There are no shortcuts on this one, however, I read your comments and thought you did an excellent analysis and provided a very good explanation to support your findings.

That is what this place is all about. Provide your insight based on good analysis and explain it in a way that anyone can understand. I never have issues when people take the time to do it right.

quicken
04-10-2008, 03:44 PM
Throw the ball into the court more, and stop sucking your tummy in, thats how you are getting robbed of your power.

If you throw that yellow ball inside the court more, you are going to get more power.

hyogen
04-10-2008, 11:04 PM
You don't buy rackets because they are what pros play with. Just because they can doesn't mean you can. When choosing a racket, you should choose what feels best in your hand and what you have the most confidence in. Demoing unbiasedly with a wide range of specifications is the best way to find the racket that fits you best. Nadal plays with an APDC, but that might not fit a flat hitting, serve and volleyer.


uhmm...if you look at my magic wand thread, you'll see that's exactly what i did. I demo'd a wide array of different types of racquets throughout the years...and most intensively in the past 6 months or so...trying to find a balance in great groundstroke/serve/return of serve/volleying racquets... yes, i'm talking about choosing one that gave me the best overall confidence in all those areas...and not some magical racquet that does it all for me. I don't think I've bought a racquet just because a pro was using it--except for the Radical line. I tried to like it b/c I loved Agassi--this was way back when I didn't even know about the paintjob scam.. Why else would you have chosen the limited edition Agassi's Radicals? You won't admit that Agassi having used it didn't influence your decision one tiny bit? oversize, no less.

I think the truth of the matter is that some pros may never have gotten quite to the level they are at if they had only used the racquets of today--with all the fancy schmancy technology. They'd probably lack the feel needed to reach such a high level...etc.

anyways, back on topic.

Double Fault
04-11-2008, 12:16 AM
I didn't read the thread so I have no idea what others have said. However, off the top of my head, you're making the same two mistakes I used to make.

1) Bending your knees before the toss and not after the toss. The knees are supposed to give you that explosion when coming from down under to strike the ball. No use in bending them if they are straightened out by the time the ball leaves your hand.

2) You're falling with the wrong foot inside the court. You should always fall with your left foot inside if you're a righty. Don't do that footswitching thing you do in the second serve of your first video. That can lead to injury.

Good luck improving! I know I still am!

Tim W
04-11-2008, 01:15 AM
A couple of things I noticed.
1. Keep that front heel on the ground (Left foot).
2. On your racquet takeback, from going beside you to behind your head, you sort of abbreviate it, so it is a lot saller.It just looks a bit strange, that's all.
3. Are you ready to learn a jump serve? I was taught a serve where I just turn my right foot in, and not take it off the ground. You seem to fall off balance when you land, and I think that keeping your feet on the ground will benefit you for now.
4. Don't lock your knees straight.

Other than that, I think it is an alright serve, and is really progressing.

Doc Hollidae
04-11-2008, 08:12 AM
uhmm...if you look at my magic wand thread, you'll see that's exactly what i did. I demo'd a wide array of different types of racquets throughout the years...and most intensively in the past 6 months or so...trying to find a balance in great groundstroke/serve/return of serve/volleying racquets... yes, i'm talking about choosing one that gave me the best overall confidence in all those areas...and not some magical racquet that does it all for me. I don't think I've bought a racquet just because a pro was using it--except for the Radical line. I tried to like it b/c I loved Agassi--this was way back when I didn't even know about the paintjob scam.. Why else would you have chosen the limited edition Agassi's Radicals? You won't admit that Agassi having used it didn't influence your decision one tiny bit? oversize, no less.

I think the truth of the matter is that some pros may never have gotten quite to the level they are at if they had only used the racquets of today--with all the fancy schmancy technology. They'd probably lack the feel needed to reach such a high level...etc.

anyways, back on topic.

I played with the Radicals because I felt they suited my game at the time. I played with an oversize after borrowing a friend's one day and traded my Radical TT Tour Midplus' for his OS'. The OS suited my return game and kick serve better than a MP.

I bought the Radical LE's because they were the closest thing to what I played with in HS (the TT Tour and Ti.Radicals). I do admit that Agassi influenced my decision to demo the Radical, but was not the reason I used it.

hyogen
04-11-2008, 08:20 AM
then i'm not much different than you! so please criticize me less... hurts my feelings :( haven't you had a 3-6 month period when you went demo crazy? I think this is the one time in my life to have 6 month stint of demo craziness. in the end I picked a racquet that is good, but gives me some wrist issues with playing too much in a week. so i just tried out a racquet everyone seems to love and have found that I can play with it almost as well as any other racquet. so I'm just gonna stick with it. I don't care what pro is using it still...I do care that it is good enough for a pro even with all the new technologies and all these years, so it's good enough for me.

so i'm sticking with this for good. life's too short to keep switching. as was originally suggested 6 months ago, I'm gonna stick with one racquet and improve my technique. AND will get lessons as soon as i'm able :)

Bungalo Bill
04-11-2008, 08:30 AM
then i'm not much different than you! so please criticize me less... hurts my feelings :( haven't you had a 3-6 month period when you went demo crazy?

3 - 6 months! Holy Cow!

Wow, it takes me three weeks tops.

hyogen
04-11-2008, 08:55 AM
3 - 6 months! Holy Cow!

Wow, it takes me three weeks tops.

meaning you've had more than one or two of these stints? this was the only demo'ing stint i've ever had and it is my last :)

shwetty[tennis]balls
04-11-2008, 09:06 AM
Keep up the hard work, REALLY KEEP UP THE HARD WORK, and LOTS of it!!!

Bungalo Bill
04-11-2008, 09:54 AM
meaning you've had more than one or two of these stints? this was the only demo'ing stint i've ever had and it is my last :)

Yes, now that you put it more in perspective, I guess I am limited to just players racquets so it makes it somewhat easier to get the demoing over with. I have been playing since I was around 8 years old.

I actually hate demoing. When I find the racquet that feels like an extension of my arm, demoing is over.

I only have a few racquets to choose from in the players class of racquets. I also find Granvilles insight on how the racquet felt very similar to what I feel in the racquet, so I usually isolate those racquets that he had good reviews on.

Eph
04-11-2008, 10:08 AM
I have a question about the wrist. Is there a video that shows (in slow motion) how your wrist moves during the serve? That's what I don't understand on how to do it - that and the pronate part.

Nellie
04-11-2008, 10:09 AM
BB. that's because both of you are old school.


Off topic, but I will admit, however, that if you watch Granville play in the video reviews, it is effortless.

Nellie
04-11-2008, 10:10 AM
I have a question about the wrist. Is there a video that shows (in slow motion) how your wrist moves during the serve? That's what I don't understand on how to do it - that and the pronate part.

Eph - I like this video about Sampras's pronation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

Eph
04-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Eph - I like this video about Sampras's pronation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

Wow - thanks.

seb85
04-11-2008, 10:24 AM
Come on guys keep it on topic... Technique only!

The pronation should come on its own without you thinking about it too much. You need to be aware that it should happen, but i would argue that other things need fixing first. Once you have mastered the rope drill that BB has suggested, keeping a floppy wrist will cause you to automatically pronate.

Snapping the wrist down on purpose is not the idea and will give you wrist problems in the long run (or already? since you mentioned a hurting wrist)

baek57
04-11-2008, 12:19 PM
looks like you are trying to hit down on the ball... you should really try to be hitting up on it. you should be bending your knees after you toss the ball and hit the ball from a higher contact spot and more in the court.

smoothtennis
04-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Thanks BB - with so many people offering advice, I like your structured approach, and here I am thowing in yet 'another' step - so wanted to get your thoughts in light of not only what he was doing, but what you had already suggested. Synergy. *smile*

BTW - been reading some OLD OLD posts by you BB on Wardlaw from 2004. Excellent reads, and I'll try to catch up to you on this topic in the next few weeks.

Bungalo Bill
04-11-2008, 01:21 PM
Thanks BB - with so many people offering advice, I like your structured approach, and here I am thowing in yet 'another' step - so wanted to get your thoughts in light of not only what he was doing, but what you had already suggested. Synergy. *smile*

BTW - been reading some OLD OLD posts by you BB on Wardlaw from 2004. Excellent reads, and I'll try to catch up to you on this topic in the next few weeks.

I have been reviewing my old posts as well. Trying to see if there should be any corrections etc...Geez, I have written a lot!

I am looking for the 5 segments I posted a long time ago. I think that is relevant to the current string of posts now flowing through. Although the 5 segments are theory-based a lot can be gleened from them for our games for improvement.

Yes, Wardlaw Directionals are a great way to learn how to move the ball around. They are a great way to work on your rally pace and to keep in the point until you are ready to take over. However, if you really think the Wardlaw Directionals are something you can use, you should get the video called High-Performance Tennis. It covers return of serve and volleys as well as grounstrokes. This is good stuff for 3.0 to 4.5 players to give them a basis on what ball control is about.

Doc Hollidae
04-11-2008, 02:26 PM
then i'm not much different than you! so please criticize me less... hurts my feelings :( haven't you had a 3-6 month period when you went demo crazy? I think this is the one time in my life to have 6 month stint of demo craziness. in the end I picked a racquet that is good, but gives me some wrist issues with playing too much in a week. so i just tried out a racquet everyone seems to love and have found that I can play with it almost as well as any other racquet. so I'm just gonna stick with it. I don't care what pro is using it still...I do care that it is good enough for a pro even with all the new technologies and all these years, so it's good enough for me.

so i'm sticking with this for good. life's too short to keep switching. as was originally suggested 6 months ago, I'm gonna stick with one racquet and improve my technique. AND will get lessons as soon as i'm able :)

Um no. I stuck with my rackets and worked on my game. I don't mess with my equipment like you do. I don't blame a racket because I missed or make a shot and the only time I've demoed in my life was the month I spend demoing before I got my Pro Tours. Even in that time I was demoing, I quickly grew tired of it and bought the Pro Tours before I even demoed it, because I got tired of constantly having to adjust my strokes to the different specifications. Before that I played with whatever the latest Radical was and concentrated on getting better, instead of tinkering with my equipment until a stroke worked. I'll admit my statements have started to get harsh, but my I'm tired of beating the dead horse and someone asking for advice, but disregards it and then asks for more advice.

The difference between you and me is that I could really care less what racket I'm playing with. Sure there are rackets that are better suited for me than others, but I won't let them be the reason for a loss or bad play. My racket doesn't hit or have a good backhand. I have a good backhand. That's what separates you and I.

smoothtennis
04-11-2008, 02:40 PM
I have been reviewing my old posts as well. Trying to see if there should be any corrections etc...Geez, I have written a lot!

I am looking for the 5 segments I posted a long time ago. I think that is relevant to the current string of posts now flowing through. Although the 5 segments are theory-based a lot can be gleened from them for our games for improvement.

Yes, Wardlaw Directionals are a great way to learn how to move the ball around. They are a great way to work on your rally pace and to keep in the point until you are ready to take over. However, if you really think the Wardlaw Directionals are something you can use, you should get the video called High-Performance Tennis. It covers return of serve and volleys as well as grounstrokes. This is good stuff for 3.0 to 4.5 players to give them a basis on what ball control is about.

Excellent-thanks for the tips BB! I'll look for that video.

smoothtennis
04-11-2008, 02:43 PM
BB - sure that video isn't called High Percentage by Wardlaw? I found on a google search, looks like what you described.

hyogen
04-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Um no. I stuck with my rackets and worked on my game. I don't mess with my equipment like you do. I don't blame a racket because I missed or make a shot and the only time I've demoed in my life was the month I spend demoing before I got my Pro Tours. Even in that time I was demoing, I quickly grew tired of it and bought the Pro Tours before I even demoed it, because I got tired of constantly having to adjust my strokes to the different specifications. Before that I played with whatever the latest Radical was and concentrated on getting better, instead of tinkering with my equipment until a stroke worked.

now that was a great idea...! ::rolls eyes:: you ARE like me. I got tired of adjusting my strokes to different specs too! So I ditched the PST, even though that was the one most suited to my game. I decided that I would just stick with the nice classic racquet (PT280) that felt much better and I could hit well overall with! And why did you keep switching to the latest and greatest Radical? Surely, you didn't *wear out* the previous frames...you just wanted to see what the new technology was like--maybe help you hit better! I've been freed of this now as well! PT280->PT280->PT280->PT280->body fails->laid to rest.


The difference between you and me is that I could really care less what racket I'm playing with. Sure there are rackets that are better suited for me than others, but I won't let them be the reason for a loss or bad play. My racket doesn't hit or have a good backhand. I have a good backhand. That's the difference.

I only "blame (as you call it)" a racquet for missing shots/returning poorly/serving poorly, etc. because like you said so yourself some racquets are better suited for certain types of shots than others.

so you could really care less about what racquet you're using...what you're saying doesn't completely make sense here. why don't you pick up a huge Wilson Hammer high power triangular shaped head racquet and use that for your league matches then? It's the player not the racquet, right?

Obviously you've played tennis more, practiced more, had lessons more than me... so for me to "mess around with my equipment" in this short 6 months where I've been the most committed and passionate about tennis-- give me a break wow! I'm set on my equipment now...ok? when have I blamed missing a shot or bad play on the racquet? If I'm consistently not hitting a certain shot well with a racquet--a shot that I can NORMALLY hit fine...then that means that racquet isn't OVERALL suited for me. Why else do people demo frames? to find a more complete, balanced fit for their game!

Tinkering around with my equipment until a stroke worked? Look at my older videos man... I didn't have a backhand before...had no idea what a unit turn was. my serves have never been harder or more consistent. I've never won as many points before...never dug myself out of 0-5 deficits, or served my way back to win from love-40 more. I have been working on my game. Yet you refuse to accept the fact that I'm doing more than just trying out different racquets. I give up! You win!

Let's see videos of your game. Since you've been doing everything the right way, stuck with the same racquet, gotten lessons, and worked on your game, I'm sure there'll be no flaws in it that anyone could pick at right?

Trinity TC
04-11-2008, 03:53 PM
One thing: my wrist, if I don't hit it exactly, my wrist suffers (from pain). What am I doing wrong here; I know the pros can't be hurting after every serve.
Yep, that's normal. A slightly misshit serve can really put a strain on the joints. Any modern racquet has a lot of technology behind it. There is nothing better than hitting the ball on the screws...but if your don't hit your serve on the sweetspot...it's pain city.

Your doing well considering that you're trying to pack the service motion into too short of a time period. Toss the ball higher (and forward) and make a make a bigger arc on your backswing/downswing.

Also, look at where Pete's racquet is when he is just releasing the ball on his toss. It's down pretty low just past his hip but he has a high enough toss to allow him to take his time accelerating into the hitting position.

Yes, change your grip. If your having trouble...do it in 1/8" (or less!!) increments per day. You'll be serving with close to a continental by the end of next week.

LanEvo
04-11-2008, 07:11 PM
You have it all wrong...its the player not the racket.

Just because the K 90 is $200 does not mean its the best racket for you.

Good tennis players can use anything...I know..I have been beaten 6-0 by players using 250g granny sticks (most have been)

Using the K Tour 90 could slow down your progress not speed it up.

Just an example for you...my coach (ex ATP player) uses a 270g Babolat....he played top 50 doubles....its not all about flashy expensive rackets.

Nick

i gotta agree with u there, theres some like 60 yr olg guy at my local courts using an OS N5 and he cracks my **** (i put in the stars) all over the place whenever we play or just rally

BeHappy
04-11-2008, 07:34 PM
This guy has been playing for only about a month and a half, (injured for a couple of months).

He is stubbornly insisting on learning right handed DESPITE BEING ABLE TO PITCH 92MPH LEFTY!!!!!!!!



I mean, have you ever heard of anything so stupid in your life?

hyogen
04-11-2008, 09:56 PM
This guy has been playing for only about a month and a half, (injured for a couple of months).

He is stubbornly insisting on learning right handed DESPITE BEING ABLE TO PITCH 92MPH LEFTY!!!!!!!!



I mean, have you ever heard of anything so stupid in your life?

the OP can pitch 92mph lefty?

The Home Run Kid
04-11-2008, 10:47 PM
This is sort of off-topic, but I'm a music person, and you guys talking about "demoing" your rackets reminds me a lot of when I bought my go-to-college-and-play-in-a-Symphony French Horn. And yeah, I played a buttload of horns before I picked one I liked. I didn't really do that with my racket, but I can certainly understand why someone would take up to 6 months to pick out their equipment. It took me a solid year to decide on what horn I wanted, but I know it's the one that will make me play best. Also, I think there's a major psychological advantage knowing that you have a "relationship" with your racket, and maybe all of the little steps you've been practicing but haven't quite gelled together might come together because you think you have this special racket. I dunno, just a theory, but I wouldn't knock you because you're choosy and take a long time to decide on what equipment to buy. It shows that you have pride and dedication in getting the best thing for you.

*/end rant.

Eph
04-12-2008, 06:08 AM
This guy has been playing for only about a month and a half, (injured for a couple of months).

He is stubbornly insisting on learning right handed DESPITE BEING ABLE TO PITCH 92MPH LEFTY!!!!!!!!



I mean, have you ever heard of anything so stupid in your life?

It's not the easiest switching hands. And I talked with Will from FYB vis-a-vis switching hands and this is what he said:

"Switching hands is definitely an iffy proposition. Probably 99% of the time I would recommend against it if you already have a relatively well-developed game. What you might consider is learning how to serve left handed but keeping the groundies the same. You are right, a lefty serve is very tough to hit (I'm a lefty and I win a ton of points b/c of my kick serve). You may wanna toy with the serve first, see how it goes, and then make a more general call. I think the returns from a left-handed forehand aren't nearly as high as the serve."

I replied, pressing the issue of winning points:

"Do you find your first serve % is higher because of being lefty, or just your 2nd serve/kick serve? I haven't developed a good serve yet; but other than that, my game is solid (I have several knee and upper back problems which prohibit some movement on the court - I'd certainly be better if I didn't have those problems and I didn't have to wear a knee brace)."

His response:

"I think the serve % is probably the same. Don't think it matters if you are a lefty or righty in this regard. The advantage we have is spin -- our serves bounce differently than right handers'. It's something most players don't see on a regular basis.

That's too bad that you have several knee / back problems. I would definitely focus on developing a good kicker... as a former pitcher you probably have a live arm so that shouldn't be a problem... but obviously you don't want to hurt yourself. If you had a 90 mph lefty kick serve that would give your opponents all sorts of problems."

Eph
04-12-2008, 06:11 AM
the OP can pitch 92mph lefty?

In my prime. Wasn't good enough for a pro team/didn't want to go through the farm system, and then I got injured with my knee.

When closing games, I'd pitch 92, if I was a started (which I loathed), I'd pitch around 82-87 (fastballs - depending on the grip).

I'm a lefty, but I was taught how to play tennis with my right hand and there aren't many left handed coaches around. I've been getting serious about tennis since last summer when I moved back from France but have been plagued with injuries.

dima
04-12-2008, 07:01 AM
Losing some weight won't hurt either.

Chauvalito
04-12-2008, 07:24 AM
In my prime. Wasn't good enough for a pro team/didn't want to go through the farm system, and then I got injured with my knee.

When closing games, I'd pitch 92, if I was a started (which I loathed), I'd pitch around 82-87 (fastballs - depending on the grip).

I'm a lefty, but I was taught how to play tennis with my right hand and there aren't many left handed coaches around. I've been getting serious about tennis since last summer when I moved back from France but have been plagued with injuries.

I dont think you need a left handed coach to be taught how to play tennis right handed.

Rafael_Nadal_6257
04-12-2008, 08:03 AM
I dont think you need a left handed coach to be taught how to play tennis right handed.

Definitely true, don't know where the OP got that idea from :confused:

EDIT: I think Chauvalito meant: I don't think you need a left handed coach to be taught how to play tennis LEFT handed.

mordecai
04-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Instead of a 'trophy' position, you are letting your racquet fall back with your stringbed against your back and pausing there. You need to get the feeling of pausing with your racquet pointing straight up to the sky. From there is where you lean your body forwards while you let the racquet come down, then knife it up towards the ball.

You will notice a huge difference in the sound and speed of your serve once you stop bringing the racquet up with its strings facing the sky. You need to bring your racquet up with the frame pointing to the ball, then turn your hand out to hit the ball (like checking your watch).

Eph
04-12-2008, 03:15 PM
Alright, made some progress today with the grip (full continental) but I need help on starting the serve to the knee bend. Any good instructional videos (I've already watched FYB) for this motion? I think when I get that down, I'll be having a pretty powerful serve.

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 03:36 PM
Alright, made some progress today with the grip (full continental) but I need help on starting the serve to the knee bend. Any good instructional videos (I've already watched FYB) for this motion? I think when I get that down, I'll be having a pretty powerful serve.

why don't you serve left handed?

You could serve 130mph left handed, you will have a run of the mill club serve if you play righty.

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:10 PM
why don't you serve left handed?

You could serve 130mph left handed, you will have a run of the mill club serve if you play righty.

Because it is HARD. Haven't I made that clear already? It doesn't feel the same as pitching. I actually tried about 10-15 balls today and couldn't put my racquet head on it - the few times it did touch, it was on the frame. There was one were it hit on the top strings and the ball went flying 3 courts away.

And did you read what Will from Fuzzy Yellow Balls said?

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:11 PM
By the way, my wrist doesn't hurt when I serve now - I guess it was the quasi-continental grip that was giving me trouble.

!!!

:D :D :D

I am playing a 4.0 player on Monday and will videotape at least the first set (my camera can only tape 30 minutes).

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:12 PM
why don't you serve left handed?

You could serve 130mph left handed, you will have a run of the mill club serve if you play righty.

Not to mention, if I ever hit 130mph it doesn't mean I'd make it pro - I know that: in every sport I've excelled at I just missed by a hair. Tennis is meant to be fun, no?

If I'm serving at 130mph and my opponents have trouble returning it, where's the fun?

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 04:17 PM
Not to mention, if I ever hit 130mph it doesn't mean I'd make it pro - I know that: in every sport I've excelled at I just missed by a hair. Tennis is meant to be fun, no?

If I'm serving at 130mph and my opponents have trouble returning it, where's the fun?

who said anything about making it as a pro?

If you're serving at barely over 100mph and working your *** off a few days a week just to get to that level, and you can't get past the 4.0 level, where's the fun in that

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 04:21 PM
as regards what will said, did you mention you pitched 92mph?

If so, and he still said you should learn to play right handed, then I respectfully disagree.

Why on earth do you think you need a left handed coach anyway?

The reason your righty serve is better than your lefty serve at this point is because you have about a month and a half worth of practicing serving with your right arm under your belt.

Learn to serve lefty, and you will not believe how good your serve is in a month and a half's time.

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:26 PM
who said anything about making it as a pro?

If you're serving at barely over 100mph and working your *** off a few days a week just to get to that level, and you can't get past the 4.0 level, where's the fun in that

Who says I won't get past the 4.0 level? Does getting past the 4.0 level solely depend on how fast you serve?

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 04:28 PM
Who says I won't get past the 4.0 level? Does getting past the 4.0 level solely depend on how fast you serve?

getting past the 4.0 level?

Yes, to a very large extent it does actually.

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:29 PM
as regards what will said, did you mention you pitched 92mph?

If so, and he still said you should learn to play right handed, then I respectfully disagree.

Why on earth do you think you need a left handed coach anyway?

The reason your righty serve is better than your lefty serve at this point is because you have about a month and a half worth of practicing serving with your right arm under your belt.

Learn to serve lefty, and you will not believe how good your serve is in a month and a half's time.

Yes, I told him I was a closer pitching 92mph.

Have you ever played baseball? Left handed pitchers are basically shown the grips and told to practice, practice, practice as right handed pitchers get constant instruction and tips from their coaches. For some reason, pitching coaches can't help a LHP like they can a RHP - probably because they aren't left handed themselves and aren't used to the motion.

To be honest, I'd try to go left handed if I could teach myself on my own with no one watching (I have some dignity and don't like to look like an idiot). I still think that my volleys and groundstrokes are excellent as a righty and I don't know if I could do that with my left hand; I've tried and I don't have the fluid motion as I do with my right...

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:30 PM
getting past the 4.0 level?

Yes, to a very large extent it does actually.

Do you think I should simply serve left handed and play the rest of the game right handed, or work my way to completely left handed? I'm not willing to practice with folks playing with my left hand unless I can not make a fool out of myself. Serving I can go to when school is still in session and practice alone, but volleys and groundstrokes, I can not.

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 04:32 PM
Yes, I told him I was a closer pitching 92mph.

Have you ever played baseball? Left handed pitchers are basically shown the grips and told to practice, practice, practice as right handed pitchers get constant instruction and tips from their coaches. For some reason, pitching coaches can't help a LHP like they can a RHP - probably because they aren't left handed themselves and aren't used to the motion.

To be honest, I'd try to go left handed if I could teach myself on my own with no one watching (I have some dignity and don't like to look like an idiot). I still think that my volleys and groundstrokes are excellent as a righty and I don't know if I could do that with my left hand; I've tried and I don't have the fluid motion as I do with my right...

why don't you do everything but serve righty, and serve lefty?

The throwing mechanics are virtually identical, if you have the capacity to pitch 92mph, then you have the capacity to serve 130mph+.If you can move your shoulder that quickly, understand?Very few humans have shoulders that are capable of that type of explosive power, why waste it?

Do you think you could pitch 92mph righty?

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:46 PM
why don't you do everything but serve righty, and serve lefty?

The throwing mechanics are virtually identical, if you have the capacity to pitch 92mph, then you have the capacity to serve 130mph+.If you can move your shoulder that quickly, understand?Very few humans have shoulders that are capable of that type of explosive power, why waste it?

Do you think you could pitch 92mph righty?

Still difficult to get into the right motion.

And of course I couldn't pitch that fast as a righty.

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 04:47 PM
Still difficult to get into the right motion.

And of course I couldn't pitch that fast as a righty.

1)what's a month and a half?

It's SO worth it.

2)Of course you can't serve that fast as a righty.

It's not like you ahve the motoin down right handed anyway lol

Eph
04-12-2008, 04:50 PM
1)what's a month and a half?

It's SO worth it.

2)Of course you can't serve that fast as a righty.

It's not like you ahve the motoin down right handed anyway lol

And what if I can't do it?

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 05:08 PM
why would it be any more difficult than learning right handed?

Eph
04-12-2008, 05:11 PM
why would it be any more difficult than learning right handed?

Because when I first "learned" to play when I was 8 or so (as you know, I just started taking it up), I was taught to play with my right hand. So I have that muscle memory from YEARS ago.

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 05:12 PM
Because when I first "learned" to play when I was 8 or so (as you know, I just started taking it up), I was taught to play with my right hand. So I have that muscle memory from YEARS ago.

but you used the wrong grip and motion, so you basically have to relearn how to serve, so...why not learn lefty instead of righty?

Eph
04-12-2008, 05:15 PM
but you used the wrong grip and motion, so you basically have to relearn how to serve, so...why not learn lefty instead of righty?

Mental, I guess. 1) Is it seems I have the serve down (minus the speed I had using the wrong grip, but the speed is getting there) and 2) I don't want to be embarrassed with people watching.

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 05:20 PM
Mental, I guess. 1) Is it seems I have the serve down (minus the speed I had using the wrong grip, but the speed is getting there) and 2) I don't want to be embarrassed with people watching.

the embarassment is the major hurdle huh?

ok, are there any other courts you could use, where the people you know don't play?

Eph
04-12-2008, 05:33 PM
the embarassment is the major hurdle huh?

ok, are there any other courts you could use, where the people you know don't play?

Yes, there are some courts off the beaten path which I can go to during the day before classes end to play. I said I'd try it, but I won't be able to do anything but practice serves.

BTW, should I really be practicing with compressed balls in cans rather than a large bucket of balls?

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 05:38 PM
Yes, there are some courts off the beaten path which I can go to during the day before classes end to play. I said I'd try it, but I won't be able to do anything but practice serves.

BTW, should I really be practicing with compressed balls in cans rather than a large bucket of balls?

Is that a yes to learning how to serve lefty?


Just use a bucket of old tennis balls or those cheap solid rubber core coaching balls, using brand new tennis balls would be quite expensive.

Eph
04-12-2008, 05:39 PM
Is that a yes to learning how to serve lefty?


Just use a bucket of old tennis balls or pressureless tennis balls, using brand new tennis balls would be quite expensive.

Yes, that's a yes, I'll give it a try. In three weeks if I can't make contact, I will go back to righty.

I have about 100 pressureless balls, though I just bought a 12 pack of pressured balls. I was told there's a big difference in respect to the bounce and how it hits.

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 05:41 PM
Yes, that's a yes, I'll give it a try. In three weeks if I can't make contact, I will go back to righty.

I have about 100 pressureless balls, though I just bought a 12 pack of pressured balls. I was told there's a big difference in respect to the bounce and how it hits.

There is, but it's really not economically viable for non pros to practice serving with pressured balls.

'Tune up' by practicing with pressured balls before and important match.

Never ever hit groundstrokes with coaching balls!

Make sure you post vids every few days.

Eph
04-12-2008, 05:43 PM
There is, but it's really not economically viable for non pros to practice serving with pressured balls.

'Tune up' by practicing with pressured balls before and important match.

Never ever hit groundstrokes with coaching balls!

Make sure you post vids every few days.

Coaching balls = nonpressurized balls?

Do non-pressurized balls hit further?

BeHappy
04-12-2008, 05:47 PM
Coaching balls = nonpressurized balls?

Do non-pressurized balls hit further?

non pressurized balls=coaching balls

Just serve with them and you'll be fine, don't play games with them though or your groundstrokes and timing will be thrown off.

raiden031
04-13-2008, 06:18 AM
I'm surprised that the OP says he was pitching 92mph because the few baseball players I have seen pick up tennis seem to have no problem with the serve. The OP doesn't look very coordinated in the video and I would've guessed he didn't play sports as a child. But maybe its because he's a left-hander serving right-handed.

BeHappy
04-24-2008, 05:19 PM
Update ?

Eph
04-24-2008, 08:13 PM
Update ?

Was away for a few weeks. Can recreate the upper body motion fine on my left side, just can not connect with the ball, and my lower body is a total disaster.

Bungalo Bill
04-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Never ever hit groundstrokes with coaching balls!

Make sure you post vids every few days.

The main difference between pressureless and pressured balls is the weight. Obviously, bounce is a little different as well. I am also not talking about the Tretorn Micro-X or Lite balls.

Players can hit groundstrokes during drills using pressureless balls to work on technique. You aren't going to destroy them. lol

Of course, if a pro can afford pressurized balls that is always better. But to say never without further qualifying it is a bit much.

BeHappy
04-25-2008, 06:22 PM
The main difference between pressureless and pressured balls is the weight. Obviously, bounce is a little different as well. I am also not talking about the Tretorn Micro-X or Lite balls.

Players can hit groundstrokes during drills using pressureless balls to work on technique. You aren't going to destroy them. lol

Of course, if a pro can afford pressurized balls that is always better. But to say never without further qualifying it is a bit much.

Never hit groundstrokes with unpressurized balls.they're heavier so they need less topspin to bring them down into the court, once you switch back to pressurized/normal you'll spray the ball all over the place.Can also screw up your timing as the ball bounces very differently.

BeHappy
04-25-2008, 06:23 PM
Was away for a few weeks. Can recreate the upper body motion fine on my left side, just can not connect with the ball, and my lower body is a total disaster.

just to clarify, how many practice sessions have you done approximately? ,(more than 1?)

Eph
04-25-2008, 06:27 PM
just to clarify, how many practice sessions have you done approximately? ,(more than 1?)

About three, maybe four hitting on both sides - about 40 balls per side.

BeHappy
04-25-2008, 06:32 PM
About three, maybe four hitting on both sides - about 40 balls per side.

Are you going to switch your groundstrokes too?

Just to clarify, I was referring to the serve, how many practice sessions have you done with your serve?

Eph
04-25-2008, 06:35 PM
Are you going to switch your groundstrokes too?

Just to clarify, I was referring to the serve, how many practice sessions have you done with your serve?

Probably not.

So was I.

BeHappy
04-25-2008, 06:38 PM
Probably not.

So was I.

ah, I thought that by both sides you meant forehands and backhands.

ok

Just practice your lefty serve, otherwise at the end of the three weeks you have alotted to learning it you will have done only half as much practice as you would have done on it, and will consequently only be half as good.

Eph
04-25-2008, 06:40 PM
ah, I thought that by both sides you meant forehands and backhands.

ok

Just practice your lefty serve, otherwise at the end of the three weeks you have alotted to learning it you will have done only half as much practice as you would have done on it, and will consequently only be half as good.

Well, right now I am pretty sore and every time I play tennis for more than 2 hours, I have to take a day's break. I think it's my back taking its toll on me. The Soma and Dilaudid aren't helping. :/

zapvor
04-28-2008, 04:49 PM
dude you need to switch to the PS 6.1 85

CantBeBeat2
04-28-2008, 05:24 PM
tsk...........

Gimmick
04-28-2008, 05:41 PM
This may have been covered but, following through across your body instead of stopping in front will help your back pain. Also, you are forcing your wrist instead of leading with your elbow and letting the wrist come over naturally. Good job ignoring the racquet critiques, for learning proper motion a splitting maul would be fine. Once you are concerned about accuracy and pace you can worry about the perfect frame.