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karbelmusic
04-15-2008, 06:17 AM
because i think it's a pronation but after have seen many slow motion of pro forehand it's seem to be a supination the palm and forearm open at contact to put the racket parallel to the net

Rickson
04-15-2008, 06:20 AM
because i think it's a pronation but after have seen many slow motion of pro forehand it's seem to be a supination the palm and forearm open at contact to put the racket parallel to the net

Supination for the forehand slice and definitely pronating for the forehand drive. A supinating forehand is for slices and it can not produce topspin.

wihamilton
04-15-2008, 06:29 AM
Your arm / wrist / racket shouldn't move at contact. You'll establish a hitting arm position -- a fixed relationship between your arm and the racket -- before you hit and keep it at and a little through contact. So you shouldn't be supinating or pronating at contact.

karbelmusic
04-15-2008, 06:46 AM
for example in this video i see a litle supination of the forearm before contact it's why the racket is parallel to the net a t contact
the inside of the forearm is open up to the sky and not to the court
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtltmUlT0M

karbelmusic
04-15-2008, 06:53 AM
another example
at the end of the takeback i see the racket parallel to the court and during the foreward swing the forehand open up (inside of the forearm to the sky ) to put the racket parallel to the net a t contact

karbelmusic
04-15-2008, 07:08 AM
the link
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w

Djokovicfan4life
04-15-2008, 07:14 AM
You should pronate AFTER contact, not DURING. After you strike the ball, turn your forearm as if you were checking your watch to see the time.

Christian78
04-15-2008, 09:04 AM
I don't even understand how there can be a debate on this subject, in my mind it's a clear fact that you pronate.

If you want to hit a SW forehand with a lot of topspin you start to swing your arm and let the racket head lag (supination) and then a bit before contact you really attack the ball with pronation and continue doing this through contact. Watch the Roddick clip, he's pronating like hell.

Gmedlo
04-15-2008, 09:13 AM
I don't even understand how there can be a debate on this subject, in my mind it's a clear fact that you pronate.

If you want to hit a SW forehand with a lot of topspin you start to swing your arm and let the racket head lag (supination) and then a bit before contact you really attack the ball with pronation and continue doing this through contact. Watch the Roddick clip, he's pronating like hell.

That isn't what pronation/supination is :shock:

Pronation is rotating of the wrist towards the body (with your arm straight out in front of you) and supination is rotation of the wrist the opposite way.

Wihamilton is 100% correct.

tennisdad65
04-15-2008, 09:27 AM
I agree with Wilhamilton too..

You are supposed to pronate 'naturally' after contact in your follow through. However, my natural instinct on the topspin forehand was NEVER to pronate after contact, and I always felt the stress in my follow through. Pronating after contact solved this issue for me.

If you pronate during contact you could get more power but you will likely net a lot of balls too. i.e. control issues.. Also, I would think it may be more stress full on your forearm TE wise.

boojay
04-15-2008, 09:38 AM
Your arm / wrist / racket shouldn't move at contact. You'll establish a hitting arm position -- a fixed relationship between your arm and the racket -- before you hit and keep it at and a little through contact. So you shouldn't be supinating or pronating at contact.

Hey Will, do you think the pronation that happens "after" contact is more passive than active? For sure there's some serious pronation going on, but the issue isn't being forced, pronation simply occurs as a natural movement resulting from the tremendous swing speed. That's my theory anyway.

edited: hizzel, just noticed TennisDad made a similar post.

Christian78
04-15-2008, 11:01 AM
That isn't what pronation/supination is :shock:

Pronation is rotating of the wrist towards the body (with your arm straight out in front of you) and supination is rotation of the wrist the opposite way.

Wihamilton is 100% correct.
Do you mean this motion?

http://www.exrx.net/AnimatedEx/Pronators/LVPronation8Temp.gif

Djokovicfan4life
04-15-2008, 01:52 PM
The motion that Christian is referring to is an entirely different concept. :confused:

wihamilton
04-15-2008, 05:16 PM
Hey Will, do you think the pronation that happens "after" contact is more passive than active? For sure there's some serious pronation going on, but the issue isn't being forced, pronation simply occurs as a natural movement resulting from the tremendous swing speed. That's my theory anyway.

edited: hizzel, just noticed TennisDad made a similar post.

Ya it's passive, imo. Nothing in the follow through should be forced -- the whole point is to decelerate your racket (and body) smoothly. By relaxing, you'll pronate -- and do a number of other things -- simply based on how your body is built. To phrase things differently (and at the sake of being redundant), what your body is doing prior to and at contact dictates how your body "releases," or follows through.

boojay
04-15-2008, 08:37 PM
Ya it's passive, imo. Nothing in the follow through should be forced -- the whole point is to decelerate your racket (and body) smoothly. By relaxing, you'll pronate -- and do a number of other things -- simply based on how your body is built. To phrase things differently (and at the sake of being redundant), what your body is doing prior to and at contact dictates how your body "releases," or follows through.

That's what I feel it's like as well. I try to explain this to others, but they either don't believe me or just tell me I'm wrong. To me, actively pronating will promote a muscled shot. Sometimes it'll go in, most of the time it won't, and this is the reason why so many easy balls are smacked right into the net or way into the back of fence. There's far too much tension in the swing when it's executed this way. I'm still guilty of doing this to some degree, but I realize it's a problem that needs to be fixed.

wihamilton
04-15-2008, 08:47 PM
That's what I feel it's like as well. I try to explain this to others, but they either don't believe me or just tell me I'm wrong. To me, actively pronating will promote a muscled shot. Sometimes it'll go in, most of the time it won't, and this is the reason why so many easy balls are smacked right into the net or way into the back of fence. There's far too much tension in the swing when it's executed this way. I'm still guilty of doing this to some degree, but I realize it's a problem that needs to be fixed.

I agree. If someone doesn't buy into what you are saying... meh, can't convince everyone, right? :)

boojay
04-15-2008, 08:53 PM
I agree. If someone doesn't buy into what you are saying... meh, can't convince everyone, right? :)

Unless you drug them.

............

:shock:

C_Urala
04-17-2008, 02:09 AM
That isn't what pronation/supination is :shock:

Pronation is rotating of the wrist towards the body (with your arm straight out in front of you) and supination is rotation of the wrist the opposite way.

No. It's not. If your arm is straight out in front of you, pronation is rotating forearm that turns your palm down to the ground. Supination ends when your palm sees the sky.

This subject has been discussed in the past.
Supination is a part of the back swing. To pronate during the forward swing, you need to have your forehand supinated beforehand.
You doesn't have to pronate to impart a topspin for the ball, but it surely helps to. Sometime (when using extreme western grips) you can even supinate during the forehand topspin shot. However you do it just to direct the string bed vertically, and it diminishes the level of top spin.

Solat
04-17-2008, 02:48 AM
Unless you drug them.

............

:shock:

boojay + chloroform?

i'm scared

Djokovicfan4life
04-17-2008, 05:05 AM
Another thread with about 5 different definitions of pronation! :shock:

Gmedlo
04-17-2008, 07:55 AM
No. It's not. If your arm is straight out in front of you, pronation is rotating forearm that turns your palm down to the ground. Supination ends when your palm sees the sky.


That's exactly what I said, perhaps you misunderstood? :confused:

Christian78
04-17-2008, 08:23 AM
That's exactly what I said, perhaps you misunderstood? :confused:
And you mean that this motion isn't utilized in a SW forehand?

Christian78
04-17-2008, 08:34 AM
Another thread with about 5 different definitions of pronation! :shock:
It's an anatomical term with only one definition. If you consider my definition wrong, please tell me witch you consider the right one.

Djokovicfan4life
04-17-2008, 08:40 AM
It's an anatomical term with only one definition. If you consider my definition wrong, please tell me witch you consider the right one.

My definition of pronation is turning your palm of your hand towards the ground after contact, as if you were checking your watch to see the time. The "lag" that you're referring to IS an important part of the SW forehand actually, but it isn't pronation.

I'm pretty sure this is the motion that you're referring to: http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/forehand_step_3.php

This is pronation:http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/forehand_step_4.php

Gmedlo
04-17-2008, 09:35 AM
And you mean that this motion isn't utilized in a SW forehand?

The motions of pronation and supination should not occur before (after the backswing) or during contact, at least not intentionally. Your hand might be supinated during contact in a SW forehand, but it is definitely not still supinating! (as in still in motion)

Christian78
04-17-2008, 09:45 AM
My definition of pronation is turning your palm of your hand towards the ground after contact, as if you were checking your watch to see the time. The "lag" that you're referring to IS an important part of the SW forehand actually, but it isn't pronation.
Yes, the lag isn't pronation, it's the opposite witch is called supination. In the video with Frank I see supination on the lag but not much pronation before contact, it looks like the "fixed" arm Will was referring to. With Roddick you can clearly see in the video that he has started pronating before contact and due to this his racket head is moving upwards with greater velocity when he hits the ball. My belief is that Franks shot is a lot flatter than Roddicks. Do you agree?

Djokovicfan4life
04-17-2008, 09:47 AM
Yes, the lag isn't pronation, it's the opposite witch is called supination. In the video with Frank I see supination on the lag but not much pronation before contact, it looks like the "fixed" arm Will was referring to. With Roddick you can clearly see in the video that he has started pronating before contact and due to this his racket head is moving upwards with greater velocity when he hits the ball. My belief is that Franks shot is a lot flatter than Roddicks. Do you agree?

If you're saying that the laid back wrist during the swing is called supination than I don't agree at all, sorry. Supination is the opposite motion of pronation.

Christian78
04-17-2008, 10:13 AM
If you're saying that the laid back wrist during the swing is called supination than I don't agree at all, sorry. Supination is the opposite motion of pronation.
No, I don't mean that. You fix your wrist in the laid back position before you start swinging forward, but that does'nt account for the lag, supination does.
Grip your racket and try to lag without supinating!

Christian78
04-17-2008, 10:30 AM
The motions of pronation and supination should not occur before (after the backswing) or during contact, at least not intentionally. Your hand might be supinated during contact in a SW forehand, but it is definitely not still supinating! (as in still in motion)
Sure, no supinating or pronating going on here! (http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/begin.php) Yes, the WW forehand is extreme in that regard, but the elements are the same as in a basic SW forehand swing.

Gmedlo
04-17-2008, 01:26 PM
Sure, no supinating or pronating going on here! (http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/begin.php) Yes, the WW forehand is extreme in that regard, but the elements are the same as in a basic SW forehand swing.

I've watched nearly every forehand video on hi-tech tennis. I don't recall a single one that looked in the least like pronation or supination was occurring on purpose, and if it isn't on purpose, it isn't truly pronation or supination. It's simply a relaxed wrist.

The wrist 'turning over' on a WW forehand is not any type of supination or pronation.

You're right, there isn't any pronating or supinating going on there! ;)

Bungalo Bill
04-17-2008, 01:38 PM
another example
at the end of the takeback i see the racket parallel to the court and during the foreward swing the forehand open up (inside of the forearm to the sky ) to put the racket parallel to the net a t contact

Yes, you can see supination a little bit when the racquet is being brought back. The rotation that is happening would place the palm facing the sky or up.

Also, this happens or should happen more with players that use Eastern forehand grips. This is because they should attempt to sync the wrist and the forearm.

However, this supination you are referring to is not forced and happens naturally because of the way the arm moves in relation to the grip one is using.

I dont know why this is important to you. The clips you should of Henin actually showed a bit of pronation as she brought the racquet into contact and into followthrough.

Is there a reason this is important to you?

C_Urala
04-17-2008, 09:11 PM
That's exactly what I said, perhaps you misunderstood? :confused:

Perhaps. However, to me your words
"Pronation is rotating of the wrist towards the body (with your arm straight out in front of you)"
describe wrist slap movement rather than pronation.

Anyway, forehand topspin can be hit with or without pronation at the contact. Neither method is bad. I think it would be bad if someone wants to topspin the ball ONLY by pronation (without using legs etc.)...

boojay
04-18-2008, 09:15 AM
boojay + chloroform?

i'm scared

As well you should be!

I mean, I wouldn't trust me.