PDA

View Full Version : Federer: The Darkhorse For The French


BigT
04-17-2008, 10:38 PM
You Saw It Here First...now That He's Got A Good Coach In His Corner, Just Wait And See. Everyone Is Looking Past Him...he'll Be There When It's All Done.....

0range
04-17-2008, 10:39 PM
Not exactly a "dark horse" as he made it to the final twice in the last two years. People should expect him to do well.

vndesu
04-17-2008, 10:44 PM
You Saw It Here First...now That He's Got A Good Coach In His Corner, Just Wait And See. Everyone Is Looking Past Him...he'll Be There When It's All Done.....

a dark horse is when someone unseeded comes and beat all the seeded players.
...
this thread made me laugh.

rafan
04-17-2008, 10:46 PM
You Saw It Here First...now That He's Got A Good Coach In His Corner, Just Wait And See. Everyone Is Looking Past Him...he'll Be There When It's All Done.....

He HAD a good coach before -and before that - and before that- and before that.............

Vision84
04-17-2008, 10:46 PM
You Saw It Here First

There are good reasons no one else has described him as a darkhorse. He reached the last 2 RG finals and is world number one.

OrangeOne
04-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Comical. People simply fail to understand that players lose sometimes, although admittedly Federer is to be blamed for part of this confusion given he won so often for so long....

Defcon
04-17-2008, 10:56 PM
I hereby nominate BigT the president of all gambling! I will then get 1000:1 odds on TMF making the finals/winning and shall win......... one meeeeellliiioooon dollars !!!

My plan is foolprof and I shall succeed :D

BigT
04-17-2008, 11:14 PM
darkhorse meaning that not too many folks out there think he will win the French, especially given his results so far this year....

vndesu
04-17-2008, 11:16 PM
so that means i can consider djoko, roddick davey for a darkhorse?

to be honest i dont think nadal will make finals...

Feña14
04-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Gulbis is my dark horse.

All great players have a break through tournament, who's to say Gulbis won't do what Guga did in 1997!

Alexandros
04-17-2008, 11:56 PM
The number 1 player in the world who has reached the past two French Open finals can not be considered a dark horse.

flyer
04-18-2008, 12:12 AM
You Saw It Here First...now That He's Got A Good Coach In His Corner, Just Wait And See. Everyone Is Looking Past Him...he'll Be There When It's All Done.....

your a new user so i'll give you a pass, but i've seen it a million times already which means hes no dark horse

Buuurnz
04-18-2008, 06:21 AM
so that means i can consider djoko, roddick davey for a darkhorse?

to be honest i dont think nadal will make finals...

roddick on this one can definitely be considered a s a darkhorse on clay in the French!

Otherside
04-18-2008, 09:36 AM
what now? 90% of the Fed threads since AO has said that he's finished so at this board he's definitely a darkhorse!

IvanYentl
04-18-2008, 09:38 AM
You Saw It Here First...now That He's Got A Good Coach In His Corner, Just Wait And See. Everyone Is Looking Past Him...he'll Be There When It's All Done.....

One word: pringles

jorel
04-18-2008, 09:55 AM
i agree that he is a darkhorse

a darkhorse not to win the Dang thing

flyer
04-18-2008, 09:57 AM
who ever says hes a darkhorse is delusional, your not a dark horse when your the number one seed

Babb
04-18-2008, 10:00 AM
Nadal will still win.




:)

anointedone
04-18-2008, 10:29 AM
I agree. He could be a darkhorse for the French. He certainly is not one of the frontrunners but if he gets his game back on track he could be one of the outsiders.

illkhiboy
04-18-2008, 10:54 AM
People act like Federer is not in contention for the French at all. Same thing they were saying last year when Nadal won a lopsided final in Monte Carlo and Volandri beat him in Rome. Yet he was back on track soon, and got to the Final of the French again where a few points could have turned the match around, or atleast made it closer.

This guy hasn't lost before the Semis of a Slam since, French Open '04. So I still consider him the number two player on clay, come the French. Would be funny (but not shocking) if a Davydenko/Nalbandian beat Nadal and Federer cruised to the title. Think Kafelnikov in '96.

The balls in your court.
04-18-2008, 11:22 AM
He HAD a good coach before -and before that - and before that- and before that.............

actually I believ he has had 10 good chances. He has been trying for a decade and has only even made it to I think 2 or 3 finals.

Turning Pro
04-18-2008, 11:37 AM
OK, he may not be a dark horse but i don't think he is even in the Top 3 in contention this year based on current form. Djokovic is second favourite at this point. People like Ferrer, Davydenko and Nalbandian and many other clay court specialists will take Federer on his current form. I don't think Fed will have a great clay court season this year to be honest, let alone make the RG final.

I do, however think he'll be back to somewhere near his best in the grass season and after.

anointedone
04-18-2008, 11:41 AM
OK, he may not be a dark horse but i don't think he is even in the Top 3 in contention this year based on current form. Djokovic is second favourite at this point. People like Ferrer, Davydenko and Nalbandian and many other clay court specialists will take Federer on his current form. I don't think Fed will have a great clay court season this year to be honest, let alone make the RG final.

I do, however think he'll be back to somewhere near his best in the grass season and after.

Djokovic second favorite on clay. When hell freezes over. What is his big achievement on clay, making the semis last year with the most farcial draw to the semis in history almost (not even a top 50 opponent). What is his biggest ever head to head win on clay as well. Even in current form Federer is over him on clay easily. My order would be something like:

1. Nadal
2. Davydenko
3. Federer
4. Ferrer
5. who cares, neither Nalbandian or Djokovic probably though

Nalbandian a clay court specialist? Ok he can play on clay but calling him a specialist makes me laugh. His best surface is indoors, clay is probably his worst even though he can play well on it.

Leelord337
04-18-2008, 11:48 AM
The definition of "dark horse":
someone in a race that is considered very unlikely to win (especially a political race); political candidate who is nominated unexpectedly; racehorse in respect of which little is known

Lendl and Federer Fan
04-18-2008, 12:17 PM
Finalist few years in a row, and people still consider him a darkhorse???

BigT
04-18-2008, 12:22 PM
what now? 90% of the Fed threads since AO has said that he's finished so at this board he's definitely a darkhorse!

that's exactly my point...

el sergento
04-18-2008, 02:01 PM
Djokovic second favorite on clay. When hell freezes over. What is his big achievement on clay, making the semis last year with the most farcial draw to the semis in history almost (not even a top 50 opponent). What is his biggest ever head to head win on clay as well. Even in current form Federer is over him on clay easily. My order would be something like:

1. Nadal
2. Davydenko
3. Federer
4. Ferrer
5. who cares, neither Nalbandian or Djokovic probably though

Nalbandian a clay court specialist? Ok he can play on clay but calling him a specialist makes me laugh. His best surface is indoors, clay is probably his worst even though he can play well on it.

Agree 100%. Fed's been the 2'nd best player on clay for a good 3 years now. Djoker's good, but I still think, despite his results, that he's too physically weak to take the French. All it would take is one tough hot mid afternoon 5 setter against a tenacious European or South American to emtpy his tank. Plus he relies on his serve much more than people think.

Nalbandian is by no means a clay court specialist and fares terribly under tough conditions and can't serve in the wind. His best surface is a quick indoor court and lets not forget his Wimbledon final.

Nadal_Freak
04-18-2008, 02:04 PM
Federer will NOT win the French Open this year. If anyone else wins it, it might be Djokovic due to his 2 hand backhand and great all-around game.

el sergento
04-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Federer will NOT win the French Open this year. If anyone else wins it, it might be Djokovic due to his 2 hand backhand and great all-around game.

What does a 2HBH have to do with anything??? Then I suppose Santoro is a contender?? Djoker's biggest strengths are his serve his movement and his ground game (off both wings). If he didn't win the AUSO by playing all court tennis he's certainly not going to win the French that way.

I still think that all it would take is a tough 4-5 setter in the first couple of rounds to deplete him. Unless the courts are playing super fast and he can beat everyone in straight sets I think Djoker's not physically strong enough yet for RG.

Pushmaster
04-18-2008, 02:13 PM
Federer is about as far from a darkhorse as you can possibly get other than Nadal. Moya would be my darkhorse even though he won it in 98.

el sergento
04-18-2008, 02:14 PM
Federer is about as far from a darkhorse as you can possibly get other than Nadal. Moya would be my darkhorse even though he won it in 98.

That would be awesome. Moya wins the French and retires. Yeah.......I don't think so.

Nadal_Freak
04-18-2008, 02:18 PM
What does a 2HBH have to do with anything???
Federer can't handle all the high topspin to his backhand. A 2 hand backhand is much more equipped to handle that. Djokovic's improving rate is much higher as proved by him beating Federer at the Aussie Open. Nadal's biggest threat on red clay this year is Djokovic.

Pushmaster
04-18-2008, 02:21 PM
^^^ el, that would be awesome. Highly unlikely of course, but not impossible.

illkhiboy
04-18-2008, 03:24 PM
Federer will NOT win the French Open this year. If anyone else wins it, it might be Djokovic due to his 2 hand backhand and great all-around game.

It was Federer's forehand that let him down last time, not his backhand. And, what are you smoking? Federer has won a set each everytime he's played Nadal at RG. That's a lot better than going 0-5 in sets as has Djokovic. So your post is, as usual, fairly ********. But that's what's expected of you. Now go be as unpredictable and childish as you always are, and call me a '*******.'

el sergento
04-18-2008, 03:32 PM
Federer can't handle all the high topspin to his backhand. A 2 hand backhand is much more equipped to handle that. Djokovic's improving rate is much higher as proved by him beating Federer at the Aussie Open. Nadal's biggest threat on red clay this year is Djokovic.

I love it how everything is based on playing Nadal. Both Fed and Djokovic can loose to a number of players before even getting the chance to play Rafa. Novak couldn't defend his Miami title and going down in the first round speaks volumes to his conditioning.

Let's let a couple of clay tournaments go bye before seeing who comes in the hottest of the two.

illkhiboy
04-18-2008, 03:39 PM
Djokovic second favorite on clay. When hell freezes over. What is his big achievement on clay, making the semis last year with the most farcial draw to the semis in history almost (not even a top 50 opponent). What is his biggest ever head to head win on clay as well. Even in current form Federer is over him on clay easily. My order would be something like:

1. Nadal
2. Davydenko
3. Federer
4. Ferrer
5. who cares, neither Nalbandian or Djokovic probably though

Nalbandian a clay court specialist? Ok he can play on clay but calling him a specialist makes me laugh. His best surface is indoors, clay is probably his worst even though he can play well on it.

Your post is slightly misleading. True, Djokovic didn't play a top-50 player at Roland Garros, but he did beat Andreev (ranked 125 cause of injury) and Verdasco (why was he so low I wonder). He also beat Gasquet earlier in the season. So he's definitely in the mix with everyone but Nadal on clay. I wouldn't be completely surprised if he manages to beat Federer either.

illkhiboy
04-18-2008, 03:44 PM
What does a 2HBH have to do with anything??? Then I suppose Santoro is a contender?? Djoker's biggest strengths are his serve his movement and his ground game (off both wings). If he didn't win the AUSO by playing all court tennis he's certainly not going to win the French that way.

I still think that all it would take is a tough 4-5 setter in the first couple of rounds to deplete him. Unless the courts are playing super fast and he can beat everyone in straight sets I think Djoker's not physically strong enough yet for RG.

I don't know why people keep bringing Djokovic's conditioning up. His retirement at Wimbledon's been brought up before but that was an insane schedule. He played Hewitt, Kiefer and Baghdatis on consecutive days if I 'm not mistaken, and spent atleast 11 hours on court if not more. C'mon without a day in between, that's crazy. Even Nadal was out of steam in Chennai after playing for nearly four hours the day before? Does that mean Novak is fitter than Nadal? I don't think so...but it's not a bad question IMO.

lambielspins
04-18-2008, 03:52 PM
Your post is slightly misleading. True, Djokovic didn't play a top-50 player at Roland Garros, but he did beat Andreev (ranked 125 cause of injury) and Verdasco (why was he so low I wonder). He also beat Gasquet earlier in the season. So he's definitely in the mix with everyone but Nadal on clay. I wouldn't be completely surprised if he manages to beat Federer either.

Gasquet isnt even a top 10 clay courter, in fact the only reason he has a top 10 ranking for now is his fluke run at Wimbledon last year. Once Wimbledon is done this year he will be back out of the top 10 where he belongs. Djokovic has no really big wins on clay up to now, period. He has really proven nothing other then he can get to the semis with a dream draw that atleast 20 players could have made it there with.

dh003i
04-18-2008, 04:10 PM
Federer is the 2nd choice to win the FO. Nadal of course having won it for 3 years is the favorite, but his knees are more and more a problem.

Yea, Federer has been in a slump. So what? Many players have.

The idea that he's somehow going to drop like a rock -- the most talented tennis player ever -- but that a mediocre player like Roddick is going to stay where he is, is nuts. So of course you get stupid threads with morons saying Federer is in "decline" and will never win anything again.

fastdunn
04-18-2008, 04:30 PM
1. Nadal
2. Davydenko
3. Federer
4. Ferrer
5. who cares, neither Nalbandian or Djokovic probably though


1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Djokovic
4. Ferrer
5. Davydenko

Andres
04-18-2008, 05:08 PM
Why is everyone so eager to place Ferrer as a darkhorse for the French?

Ferrer, with López, is the least claycourter of the spanish armada. He's more of a hardcourt player to my eyes.

He looks to be a perennial R32 guy at the French. The only time he went past R32 was 2005, where he got to QF and lost to Nadal 5-7, 2-6, 0-6

Robredo is a far better claycourter than Ferrer.

lambielspins
04-18-2008, 05:16 PM
Federer is the 2nd choice to win the FO. Nadal of course having won it for 3 years is the favorite, but his knees are more and more a problem.


Wishful thinking at best.

lambielspins
04-18-2008, 05:17 PM
Robredo is a far better claycourter than Ferrer.

I would never pick Robredo over Ferrer on any surface right now. Ferrer would have to have a majorly off day to lose to Robredo anywhere right now. Robredo has nothing to hurt him with really.

Richie Rich
04-18-2008, 05:22 PM
there are probably 10 guys with a good chance to win. rebredo isn't one of them. if he gets to the semis it will be a miracle

fastdunn
04-18-2008, 05:42 PM
1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Djokovic
4. Ferrer
5. Davydenko

Actually, let me drop Davydenko and group everybody in top 50 into #5 spot up there.

KFactor27
04-18-2008, 05:55 PM
Federer is definitely not a darkhorse by any means. I think he'll finally win it this year.

Nadal_Freak
04-18-2008, 06:06 PM
It was Federer's forehand that let him down last time, not his backhand. And, what are you smoking? Federer has won a set each everytime he's played Nadal at RG. That's a lot better than going 0-5 in sets as has Djokovic. So your post is, as usual, fairly ********. But that's what's expected of you. Now go be as unpredictable and childish as you always are, and call me a '*******.'
You are expecting to see the same Federer as of the last 3 years? Those are his prime years. Clay is a young players surface. Nadal and Djokovic have a much bigger upside and game style more suited to clay. Djokovic losing a lot in the indoor season didn't stop him from straight setting Federer at the Aussie Open. Yes you are a ******* as you know you are. I would even say Federer was the closest to winning the French Open in 2005. Last year was Nadal's easiest matches against Federer in Monte Carlo and Roland Garros. Hamburg didn't count since Nadal was exhausted. Federer always has trouble generating pace on his backhand up high. He was taking a conservative root with it and Nadal made him pay the price that way as well. Fed still can't change the direction of the ball or take the ball early like some 2 handers can. Davydenko most notably. Djokovic is learning to do it as well.
I love it how everything is based on playing Nadal. Both Fed and Djokovic can loose to a number of players before even getting the chance to play Rafa. Novak couldn't defend his Miami title and going down in the first round speaks volumes to his conditioning.

Let's let a couple of clay tournaments go bye before seeing who comes in the hottest of the two.
Like mentioned already, Novak bounced back just fine after his rough indoor season to take the Aussie Open and Indian Wells. Yeah it is probably not to his best interest to play a lot of tournaments before the French Open.

illkhiboy
04-19-2008, 11:35 AM
Gasquet isnt even a top 10 clay courter, in fact the only reason he has a top 10 ranking for now is his fluke run at Wimbledon last year. Once Wimbledon is done this year he will be back out of the top 10 where he belongs. .

Well, I 'd say Gasquet is a top-20 on clay at the moment and top 10 when he's on - okay I know that's not often. However, I think since he played the final at Estoril, he must have been playing well.
Btw, I don't consider Wimbledon a fluke. Yeah Gasquet hasn't really impressed me and I don't really consider him a top 10 player at the moment but I won't be too harsh on him. He's still pretty young and he might turn out to be a bit of a late bloomer like Davydenko. Or more like, that's when he will be more consistent.
Remember the 2005 clay season? Gasquet was destroying players back then! He even got a win over Federer, and was pretty close to beating Nadal the following day. Give him credit, he can play on the surface. Too bad he's got mental issues at the moment.

Djokovic has no really big wins on clay up to now, period. He has really proven nothing other then he can get to the semis with a dream draw that atleast 20 players could have made it there with.

20 players? Hmm I don't know. Andreev is no joke on clay. Djokovic has beaten him twice on the surface. I remember the first time I saw Djokovic was back at the 2005 French Open. He was playing Coria and I immeaditely saw potential in him. He played pretty damn good for 2 sets (1-1, back when Coria was top 3 on clay) but had to retire cause of breathing problems. I think Coria was a bit lucky to get off so easy. And no, I 'm not speaking from hindsight. Djokovic was just that good.
He also took a set off Federer in Monte Carlo a couple years back. I don't know if that means much considering that it was Federer's first match of the season but I think it means that the Serb is not bad on the surface at all.

I just checked his 2006 record, and in reaching the quarter-final he beat Gonzalez, Monfils, Haas and Horna (retirement in set 2).

So he doesn't quite have the big wins on clay, but then he's only lost to the best players on the surface (Nadal, Ferrer, Moya - 7-5 in the third).

Tell me something, who do you think Djokovic can't beat on clay? Or who would you bet money on to beat him this season?

illkhiboy
04-19-2008, 11:49 AM
You are expecting to see the same Federer as of the last 3 years? Those are his prime years. Clay is a young players surface. Nadal and Djokovic have a much bigger upside and game style more suited to clay. Djokovic losing a lot in the indoor season didn't stop him from straight setting Federer at the Aussie Open. Yes you are a ******* as you know you are. I would even say Federer was the closest to winning the French Open in 2005. Last year was Nadal's easiest matches against Federer in Monte Carlo and Roland Garros. Hamburg didn't count since Nadal was exhausted. Federer always has trouble generating pace on his backhand up high. He was taking a conservative root with it and Nadal made him pay the price that way as well. Fed still can't change the direction of the ball or take the ball early like some 2 handers can. Davydenko most notably. Djokovic is learning to do it as well.



So suddenly Federer is old now? And what do you mean Djokovic's game suits clay more? How is it better than Federer's? Federer has a better kick serve. He has a better forehand, more variety on the top spin backhand though not as steady, he hits better angles, moves better on the surface especially at the net where the slippery surface can be tricky and hits a very effective slice.
Btw I wasn't even talking about who will be a bigger challenge to Nadal in the upcoming years. Federer's certainly in a bit of a decline and he may not continue his excellent form this year. I was disputing your assertion that Djokovic's two-handed backhand and all-court game automatically makes him a better contender for Roland Garros. Ofcourse, that's an unbelievably stupid statement. Federer is more of an all-courter than Djokovic as I explained above. And not every one-hander has problems with Nadal's high topspins. Kohlschrieber, Gasquet, Gaudio to name a couple.
*******? Sure, like that means anything coming from a 25-year old who's emotional health depends on the results of a young Spaniard man he has wet dreams about.

BigT
05-21-2008, 03:24 PM
not too many guys thinking Ferrer is a threat anymore.....

WhiskeyEE
05-21-2008, 03:45 PM
a dark horse is when someone unseeded comes and beat all the seeded players.
...
this thread made me laugh.

dark horses don't have to be unseeded. Dark horses exist outside of tennis.

But I agree with the OP, Federer will win.

WhiskeyEE
05-21-2008, 03:47 PM
Why is everyone so eager to place Ferrer as a darkhorse for the French?

Ferrer, with López, is the least claycourter of the spanish armada. He's more of a hardcourt player to my eyes.

He looks to be a perennial R32 guy at the French. The only time he went past R32 was 2005, where he got to QF and lost to Nadal 5-7, 2-6, 0-6

Robredo is a far better claycourter than Ferrer.

I agree... Ferrer isn't a great clay courter. He's better than Robredo, though.

BigT
05-19-2009, 03:32 AM
applicable this year.

theduh
05-19-2009, 03:45 AM
applicable this year.

Hardly, I'm a Fed fan but I wouldn't keep my hopes really high, that win in Madrid hardly tells anything. Though he reached the last 3 FO finals but winning it altogether? hardly but still I would say he will reach the finals even if Novak is on his side of the draw (no disrespect here GJ011) and with some luck and an "exhausted" Nadal there's a bit of a chance.

Lotto
05-19-2009, 03:53 AM
ah, he cant be a darkhorse tbh. He reached the last 3 finals. Some people are saying 2 for some reason.

theduh
05-19-2009, 03:55 AM
ah, he cant be a darkhorse tbh. He reached the last 3 finals. Some people are saying 2 for some reason.

LOL! Prolly not counting the one that Roger got bageled.

Gugafan
05-19-2009, 04:19 AM
The OP needs to look up the definition of dark horse. How can the world no 2 and 3times finalist at RG be a dark horse.

Monfils is someone who you could consider a darkhorse but the knee injury may have hampered his preperation for the tournament.

MichaelChang
05-19-2009, 04:26 AM
The thread is more than 1 year old for christ's sake.

stormholloway
05-19-2009, 04:28 AM
Not exactly a "dark horse" as he made it to the final twice in the last two years. People should expect him to do well.

The number 1 player in the world who has reached the past two French Open finals can not be considered a dark horse.

Umm, 3 finals guys, the past 3 years.

slice bh compliment
05-19-2009, 04:32 AM
Umm, 3 finals guys, the past 3 years.
And the yr before that, a semifinal loss to the champion (dominant champion).

P_Agony
05-19-2009, 04:38 AM
You Saw It Here First...now That He's Got A Good Coach In His Corner, Just Wait And See. Everyone Is Looking Past Him...he'll Be There When It's All Done.....

I maybe have missed something, but since when does Fed have a coach?

Avril_lover7
05-19-2009, 05:39 AM
Federer reached the FO 3 times ,,

2006, 2007, 2008 ..

and reached the SF in 2005 ,,

and lost to the same player ..

i'm a Fan of Rog ,,

but he should learn from all of the finals he lost ..

hope he gets it this year ,
'cause i'm more optimistic every time he reaches the final ...

: )

thanx 4 thread ...
^_^ ,,

Dutch-Guy
05-19-2009, 06:20 AM
How can he still be a "Darkhorse" after having reached 3 finals in a row? I'd rather call him a top contender.

CyBorg
05-19-2009, 06:27 AM
I like Djokovic more. On the slow courts of Roland Garros, Djoker's two-handed backhand looks like a better weapon in long rallies. The bounces will be quite greater too.

Of course, Djokovic is a touch unpredictable and disappointed me last year in the semis against Nadal. I'm hoping that this personal trainer thing is working out. So far looking good.

It's pretty cute though that the Federer bandwagon is filled up again after Madrid. Consider me a skeptic.

vtmike
05-19-2009, 08:02 AM
It's pretty cute though that the Federer bandwagon is filled up again after Madrid. Consider me a skeptic.

You think support for a 13 time GS champion & three time FO finalist is a bandwagon? :-? You have some pretty high standards...

CyBorg
05-19-2009, 08:03 AM
You think support for a 13 time GS champion & three time FO finalist is a bandwagon? :-? You have some pretty high standards...

Well, no. Some folks support the guy through thick and thin.

It's the other ones.

P_Agony
05-19-2009, 09:05 AM
You think support for a 13 time GS champion & three time FO finalist is a bandwagon? :-? You have some pretty high standards...

Hey, what is this thing about Federer having a coach now? Is it true? Who is it?

mzzmuaa
05-19-2009, 10:02 AM
original post was dated april 2008.
it is may 2009 now

vtmike
05-19-2009, 10:10 AM
Hey, what is this thing about Federer having a coach now? Is it true? Who is it?

I think he just means Severin Luthi...but he has already been his coach for some time now...so im not sure about what the OP means either...

theduh
05-20-2009, 02:40 AM
Well, no. Some folks support the guy through thick and thin.

It's the other ones.

If you could name a few on these boards that would be great.

Leublu tennis
05-20-2009, 02:42 AM
a dark horse is when someone unseeded comes and beat all the seeded players.
...
this thread made me laugh.Oh you are being too serious. The OP meant well.

Cyan
05-20-2009, 09:36 AM
Lol..............