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wta_fan
04-18-2008, 07:54 PM
Many people don't like Serena because of the lack of sportsmanship. I'm with them. But you also have to admire someone who keeps on winning. Crashing Justine Henin at Miami and now defeating Maria Sharapova at Charleston give her the free way to claim some big titles this year. Personally I can't think of any WTA player who could beat her right now. Do you?.

lambielspins
04-18-2008, 07:59 PM
Saying nobody can win against her because she has had a few good wins is crazy. Justine is playing like absolute crap right now, so it is no surprise Serena crushed her, any top 10 player other then Hantuchova or Bartoli probably would have at the moment. Justine will probably get herself together and if she does she will beat Serena on clay every single time and is a threat to her on other surfaces too.

Sharapova could have won todays match had she been a bit more focused at the end of the first set. Clay is the worst surface for both but even more for Maria. If she can be that competitive on clay she can definitely beat Serena on a faster surface.

Kuznetsova almost beat her in Miami, in fact should have. Jankovic beat her in Australia where Serena had a really off day, but she has alot of those, she will never the consistently top form player she was in 2003, and then lost to her in 3 sets in Miami in an ugly match by both. Ivanovic is there too and is also a threat.

There are lots of people who can beat Serena and she will never dominate the game like she did in 2003. However of course she is a threat to win another slam, it just depends if she is consistent enough to do it or not. Todays womens game is very low quality and a crapshoot to what will happen.

crawl4
04-18-2008, 08:06 PM
i think she has a good chance to win one this year but i dont want her to. Im with you, i think she is a horrible sportsman and even though she has talent, she is lazy during matches. Her serves are so inconsistent where they land and her baseliner style gets monotonous, she just whacks that ball so hard

lambielspins
04-18-2008, 08:08 PM
Actually I think her serve is great. That inconsistency where they land is her great variety and ability to mix up her serve, it certainly isnt a lack of control. Her groundstrokes are very unreliable compared to when she dominated the game though, and they always will be from this point onwards. Basically I dont see her ever having more then a 1-slam year again.

janipyt05
04-19-2008, 02:56 AM
Saying nobody can win against her because she has had a few good wins is crazy. Justine is playing like absolute crap right now, so it is no surprise Serena crushed her, any top 10 player other then Hantuchova or Bartoli probably would have at the moment. Justine will probably get herself together and if she does she will beat Serena on clay every single time and is a threat to her on other surfaces too.

Sharapova could have won todays match had she been a bit more focused at the end of the first set. Clay is the worst surface for both but even more for Maria. If she can be that competitive on clay she can definitely beat Serena on a faster surface.

Kuznetsova almost beat her in Miami, in fact should have. Jankovic beat her in Australia where Serena had a really off day, but she has alot of those, she will never the consistently top form player she was in 2003, and then lost to her in 3 sets in Miami in an ugly match by both. Ivanovic is there too and is also a threat.

There are lots of people who can beat Serena and she will never dominate the game like she did in 2003. However of course she is a threat to win another slam, it just depends if she is consistent enough to do it or not. Todays womens game is very low quality and a crapshoot to what will happen.


Serena h2h read 6-3 before the 3 loses last year the h2h now reads 7-6 Serena, yes no doubt justine is a fab tennis players and smart with her game but has kinks, her bh is not as solid as peple would like to believe and she seems to not believe in fiding a way to fix the serve that lets her down often. Once you start getting Justine really worked up she tends to fall apart but only the best can bring that out.

However i agree that Justine would 9/10 beat Serena on clay but lest you forget that Serena has won the French Open, she did not win that by luck. Sharapova is not better than williams on clay largely because of the movement and Sharapova brings her hard court game onto clay and not counting for the fact the points will be longer and more often than not players will be able to keep themselves in rallie far much longer than she would like. As for Sharapova beating serena the h2h is 5-2 Serena as of monday so how can sharapova own Serena. Serena is also so much stronger, fitter and faster than Sharapova on all surfaces

There is no point saying Kusnetsova could have beaten but because she didn't. Yes Serena is not as great as she was in 03/04 but she is major threat no one counted her as a contender 07 Aus Open didn't she shock everyone and that determination that she has, has won her matches even when it looks like its over. Serea is a champion like no other and biggest fighter in the game

a lot of these people you mention Serena has beaten yet these are the players of today and Serena with her past exprience and a style which is ever increasing gives her much chance of playing for a few more years

Supernatural_Serve
04-19-2008, 05:21 AM
Its good to see her more fit than she's been in years and its showing in her results. With her potential, I can't understand why she let her fitness/weight get so out of control.

TheTruth
04-19-2008, 05:45 AM
Serena Williams is the best player ever, bar none. Most of the wins against her have been when she was injured, or coming from an injury. Unsportsmanlike, how? when? Serena is gracious when she loses, smiles for the camera, and congratulates the winner every time. Many people don't like her because she beats up on their favorites. I like Justine too, but when Serena is not injured, or coming back from an injury I can't think of one time Justine beat her. And a fit, focused Serena means Sharapova may as well book airline tickets home every time. Sure, it kills the commentators and other fans, but that's the way it is. Serena can win anything she wants to, whenever she wants to. Regarding her fitness. How funny is it that Maria is always the one who runs out of gas? She is not in Serena's league. Both of her wins were lucky!

tintin
04-19-2008, 07:50 AM
sorry but Henin hasn't been playing well this year and it's no surprise that Serena took her out in Miami;since it's Henin least favorite surface(grass comes next) and her beating Maria on clay;although green "clay" is nothing because clay;green or red is Maria's worse surface(yes she did make the semis due to the choking of Schnyder and a dubious call by the umpire) but Serena I'll remind some has won Roland Garros.
if on clay;red clay that is;I'd bet my house 99% of the time on the Belgian to beat both Serena and Maria.
I think Justine would absolutely thrash Maria on the red clay if they were to meet.

TheTruth
04-19-2008, 08:06 AM
Henin hasn't been playing well this year. I think it's health related, although she hasn't said it. But before Serena lost three in a row to Justine, the h2h was 6-3, so I don't see that as Justine being so much better than Serena and her three wins previously were on clay only. So, I suppose it's one of those times where we'll have to wait to see what their career h2h looks like.

grafrules
04-19-2008, 08:11 AM
Serena Williams is the best player ever, bar none.

Except for Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills Moody, Maureen Connoly, Margaret Court, Billie Jean King, and Monica Seles.

Most of the wins against her have been when she was injured, or coming from an injury.

You mean the injuries she and her father fabricate for her to prepare an excuse in case she loses each time.

TheTruth
04-19-2008, 08:13 AM
Except for Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills Moody, Maureen Connoly, Margaret Court, Billie Jean King, and Monica Seles.

When I saw your name I knew you were going to be posting to me. Ha ha ha ha! I stand by my opinion. The aforementioned played in a different era, a different game, no comparison in my book! Didn't some of them play in long dresses?

grafrules
04-19-2008, 08:31 AM
When I saw your name I knew you were going to be posting to me. Ha ha ha ha! I stand by my opinion. The aforementioned played in a different era, a different game, no comparison in my book! Didn't some of them play in long dresses?

Sure SOME of them played in a very different era and game. Not all of them. Graf's played throughout the 90s, so did Seles. Navratilova ended her career in the 90s and won the majority of her slams in the 80s. That is not some ancient game.

Players like Capriati and Pierce who were from the Graf-Seles era were able to win slams and be in slam finals in the 2000s as well. Pierce has only made 6 slam finals her whole career and made 2 in just one year in 2005 as a 30 year old. Capriati never won a slam in the 90s, and never got higher then #6 in his first prime in the early 1990s, yet won 3 slams and temporarily reached #1 to start this decade. This decade certainly does not produce this new and revolutioned game that make an 8-time slam winner greater then the various 18-24 slam winners that exist, nor women who won 9 slams despite their career peak being ended by an outside occurence at only 19 (1 of the 2 managed to add a mere 1 slam after the fact to that tally).

Unless she finishes her career with a real flourish, Serena will be remembered as of course an all time great player to some extent, but her greatness is greatly diminished by how much of her talent and potential she chose to waste away. The only best ever terms she will be seriously discussed in are the "what if she had wanted it more" or "what if she had made tennis her first priority" kind.

Tennis_Monk
04-19-2008, 08:32 AM
When I saw your name I knew you were going to be posting to me. Ha ha ha ha! I stand by my opinion. The aforementioned played in a different era, a different game, no comparison in my book! Didn't some of them play in long dresses?

Unfortunately WTA doesnt run by your book. You can certainly stand by your opinion or whatever. "Truth" is that Serena isnt the greatest no matter which era you are referring to. She dominated in womens tennis for a period of time and i give credit to her for that.

Sportmanship and Serena. i dont know what you are talking about. It almost like saying " No blood no foul".

TheTruth
04-19-2008, 08:44 AM
Unfortunately WTA doesnt run by your book. You can certainly stand by your opinion or whatever. "Truth" is that Serena isnt the greatest no matter which era you are referring to. She dominated in womens tennis for a period of time and i give credit to her for that.

Sportmanship and Serena. i dont know what you are talking about. It almost like saying " No blood no foul".

The WTA doesn't run by your book either. I do stand by my opinion and am curious why it bothers you enough to post to me. She's the greatest in my book and nothing you or anyone else says will change that. I compared her "sportsmanship" to Federer's, and so far haven't gotten a bite. Can we say pick and choose?

TheTruth
04-19-2008, 08:45 AM
Sure SOME of them played in a very different era and game. Not all of them. Graf's played throughout the 90s, so did Seles. Navratilova ended her career in the 90s and won the majority of her slams in the 80s. That is not some ancient game.

Players like Capriati and Pierce who were from the Graf-Seles era were able to win slams and be in slam finals in the 2000s as well. Pierce has only made 6 slam finals her whole career and made 2 in just one year in 2005 as a 30 year old. Capriati never won a slam in the 90s, and never got higher then #6 in his first prime in the early 1990s, yet won 3 slams and temporarily reached #1 to start this decade. This decade certainly does not produce this new and revolutioned game that make an 8-time slam winner greater then the various 18-24 slam winners that exist, nor women who won 9 slams despite their career peak being ended by an outside occurence at only 19 (1 of the 2 managed to add a mere 1 slam after the fact to that tally).

Unless she finishes her career with a real flourish, Serena will be remembered as of course an all time great player to some extent, but her greatness is greatly diminished by how much of her talent and potential she chose to waste away. The only best ever terms she will be seriously discussed in are the "what if she had wanted it more" or "what if she had made tennis her first priority" kind.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I mine!

James
04-19-2008, 09:03 AM
Unsportsmanlike, how? when? Serena is gracious when she loses, smiles for the camera, and congratulates the winner every time.

Yes, saying your opponent hit a lot of lucky shots is very gracious.

I like Justine too, but when Serena is not injured, or coming back from an injury I can't think of one time Justine beat her.

Was Serena injured at the French last year? Was she injured at the French in '03, or wait, was it the antics of the French crowd that helped Henin win that match, or was it lucky shots? Was Serena injured when she lost to Henin at Charleston in '03, when she was in great form and hubristically talking about how she wanted to go unbeaten for the entire year?

If you want to play that sort of "let's put an asterisk on every one of Henin's wins over S. Williams," why not turn it around? Why not blame Henin's narrow loss to Serena in Miami '07 to the fact that Serena was more match fit, having just won the AO whereas Henin had been out for months due to her divorce?

The fact is that whether or not Serena was injured or "coming back" from injury, she stepped out on court, she decided she was fit enough to face some of the world's best players, and her results should stand as they are. Her losses don't need to be explained away with ridiculous asterisks, just like Justine's recent losses don't need to be explained away with theories about her health or knee problems. Considering that up until recently Serena was always "coming back" from being away from the tour for various reasons, it's WAY too convenient to excuse her losses that way.

CEvertFan
04-19-2008, 09:37 AM
Except for Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills Moody, Maureen Connoly, Margaret Court, Billie Jean King, and Monica Seles.



You mean the injuries she and her father fabricate for her to prepare an excuse in case she loses each time.


Well said. Anyone saying that Serena Williams is the best ever is ludicrous at best. Results prove that she isn't even close.

The only areas where Serena is #1 is in the breasts and *** department. She has more of those than any other woman ever. ;)

MariaS
04-19-2008, 07:46 PM
and the thing of it is that the Williams' sisters will be around for a long time...thankfully

because they are tremendous athletes....

Teyko
04-19-2008, 09:09 PM
She is simply the best and most exciting female tennis player out there...who knows...she may just show everyone what she can do if she wanted.

CEvertFan
04-19-2008, 09:36 PM
She is simply the best and most exciting female tennis player out there...who knows...she may just show everyone what she can do if she wanted.

Being able to hit super powerful groundstrokes (when they actually go in) doesn't make you the best ever. Serena's unforced error count is usually through the roof and her footwork is sloppy, but it's her commitment to playing tennis that is the worst.

lambielspins
04-19-2008, 10:11 PM
and the thing of it is that the Williams' sisters will be around for a long time...thankfully

because they are tremendous athletes....

Not likely. Despite their tremendous athleticsm the Williams have been more injury prone then most, making a super long career less likely. More significant however are their ages. Serena is already 26 years old, Venus is already 27. In this day in age they are nearing the end of their prime years as players most likely.

lambielspins
04-19-2008, 10:17 PM
Being able to hit super powerful groundstrokes (when they actually go in) doesn't make you the best ever. Serena's unforced error count is usually through the roof and her footwork is sloppy, but it's her commitment to playing tennis that is the worst.

I agree with all of that, especialy the last line. She had the talent and potential to have been the best player ever if she had continued to apply herself fully and continue to make tennis her first priority after her 2002-2003 dominance. She seemed to use her injury layoff as an excuse to slack off again and since then she treats tennis like a part time hobby and wonders why she doesnt win slams in bunches anymore, and wonders why she no longer gains respect from any sane individual as still being the dominant women player. I think her diehard fans, some of who you see examples of in a thread like this, are frusterated by this reality too. Instead of becoming the best women player ever as she had the potential to be, she instead is at best a marginal top 10/top 12 player all time who will long be ridiculed for squandering away so much of her potential for greatness. In frusteration this harsh reality leaves her more avid supporters scrambling for the cheesiest excuses they can find, eg-such an incredible womens field today claims (ROTFL!), bad luck with injuries all the time, when they are "on" rationals, etc.....

Someday she is going to look back and regret it all. All of this will hit home, just much too late for her to do anything about it. Instead of possibly having become the best women player in history she will find herself much further down the historic pecking order, and in exchange for what? In the place of the potential top spot in the history of her sport which she wasted away any hope for, she will instead have her second rate fashion designs and her wannabee failed actressing career.

janipyt05
04-20-2008, 01:22 AM
You can say what you want about Serena but the result do speak for themselves, however much you want to nit pick at her sportmanship lets not forget Henin is known for her cheating with her coach. They are so many players to get away with something. If you compare J,H to Serena on tennis alone you will find Serena has achieved more. Serena is truly up there with the best of them don't deny it because you don't like her. You can talk all you want about her foot work, her weight blah blah blah but she still keeps winning no matter what there has to be said that she has awesome power and presence unlike some player, has a fighting spirit unlike any other she will do anything to win

31 titles, 11 finals, 11 doubles titles, 2 slams in mixed and Fed cup 3 times and olympic gold

daddy
04-20-2008, 04:03 AM
You can say what you want about Serena but the result do speak for themselves, however much you want to nit pick at her sportmanship lets not forget Henin is known for her cheating with her coach. They are so many players to get away with something. If you compare J,H to Serena on tennis alone you will find Serena has achieved more. Serena is truly up there with the best of them don't deny it because you don't like her. You can talk all you want about her foot work, her weight blah blah blah but she still keeps winning no matter what there has to be said that she has awesome power and presence unlike some player, has a fighting spirit unlike any other she will do anything to win

31 titles, 11 finals, 11 doubles titles, 2 slams in mixed and Fed cup 3 times and olympic gold


She had a great career. Could you imagine what she could have done if she only loved tennis at least to some extent and not play it as a fastest way to make your own parfume and go to shopping ?

Wuornos
04-20-2008, 08:03 AM
Many people don't like Serena because of the lack of sportsmanship. I'm with them. But you also have to admire someone who keeps on winning. Crashing Justine Henin at Miami and now defeating Maria Sharapova at Charleston give her the free way to claim some big titles this year. Personally I can't think of any WTA player who could beat her right now. Do you?.

I think you're absolutely right in identifying peoples dislike for Serena but not letting this sway your judgment of her as a player.

To be honest I think the standard she's playing right now definitely makes her a threat at the majors, but I would prefer to see a bit more evidence before I identify her as the world #1 again.

To be honest I think it's far to early to rule out either Henin or Sharapova as having a weaker game at this point. Even her sister, Ana Ivanović or Svetlana Kuznetsova would have a case to make regarding the quality of their results as superior to Serena in all but the very short term of the last few weeks.

Players sometimes hit a rich vain of form but this standard can be temporary and is not truly reflective of the overall quality of their underlying game.

Of course Serena at her peak in 2002 - 2003 would destroy all the top players in the game at the moment, but this standard, or to be more precise, the evidence of this standard is a long way off yet.

Of course you may prove to be correct and Serena will sweep all before her in coming tournaments, but even if this were to be the case, I feel my above assment of the evidence as it stands at this point in time would still have been accurate.

Just my opinion.

Regards

Tim

thalivest
04-20-2008, 08:45 AM
Henin on clay was 3-1 vs Serena even in 2002-2003, and Henin was just starting to develop into a champion player. So I think Serena of 2002-2003 would still lose to Justine on clay if Justine was in reasonable form. However the other surfaces she would kick major ***. She isnt in even close to that form though and probably never will be again.

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 08:49 AM
I agree with all of that, especialy the last line. She had the talent and potential to have been the best player ever if she had continued to apply herself fully and continue to make tennis her first priority after her 2002-2003 dominance. She seemed to use her injury layoff as an excuse to slack off again and since then she treats tennis like a part time hobby and wonders why she doesnt win slams in bunches anymore, and wonders why she no longer gains respect from any sane individual as still being the dominant women player. I think her diehard fans, some of who you see examples of in a thread like this, are frusterated by this reality too. Instead of becoming the best women player ever as she had the potential to be, she instead is at best a marginal top 10/top 12 player all time who will long be ridiculed for squandering away so much of her potential for greatness. In frusteration this harsh reality leaves her more avid supporters scrambling for the cheesiest excuses they can find, eg-such an incredible womens field today claims (ROTFL!), bad luck with injuries all the time, when they are "on" rationals, etc.....

Someday she is going to look back and regret it all. All of this will hit home, just much too late for her to do anything about it. Instead of possibly having become the best women player in history she will find herself much further down the historic pecking order, and in exchange for what? In the place of the potential top spot in the history of her sport which she wasted away any hope for, she will instead have her second rate fashion designs and her wannabee failed actressing career.

That is a load of bull malarkey. True, she has had injuries, but that doesn't in any way negate her talent. This notion that one has to eat, sleep, and breathe tennis is overrated in my opinion. If she does indeed treat it like a part time hobby, then it has worked to her advantage, because those who have eaten, breathed, and lived tennis are still behind her in number. And why would she regret living a full life and playing tennis at the highest level on a part time basis? Her life has been fuller than all the rest of the tennis players on tour, so I say go on girl, live your life and do it your way. Thus far, it seems to work. Oft-injured, long layoffs, and you can still beat the top players to a pulp? You got to be the baddest thing the tennis world has ever seen! Go Serena!

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 08:54 AM
Here's what I don't understand. Who's to say what her level of commitment to tennis is? How does a poster know? It's funny to me how when Vee and Ree did photo shoots, commercials, etc., there weren't committed. But when Sharapova does it, her commitment is STILL to tennis. How so? What's the difference. That commitment to tennis b.s is just that. When Serena and Venus have been off it has usually been attributed to their injuries, so what are they supposed to do, sit at home in hiding because they're hurt? These double standards irritate me. Apply them across the board!

lambielspins
04-20-2008, 08:56 AM
True, she has had injuries, but that doesn't in any way negate her talent.

Only 2 slams in the last 4 and a half year. I would say she has done very well negating her talent on her own.

If she does indeed treat it like a part time hobby, then it has worked to her advantage, because those who have eaten, breathed, and lived tennis are still behind her in number.

This is where you are so mistaken:

Court- 24 slams
Graf- 22 slams
Evert- 18 slams
Navratilova 18 slams


Serena- 8 slams

You can see how far she is the one behind in number those who to some extent as you put it "ate, breathed, and lived tennis". I even left out those "long dress" players from ancient times who you disregarded earlier.

Thus far, it seems to work. Oft-injured, long layoffs, and you can still beat the top players to a pulp?

As her 2 slams titles in the last 4 and a half years show. Just beating the tour to a pulp with all those wins eh. Less then half what Henin has won in that span, less then a very young Sharapova has won in that span, only the same # that Mauresmo (ROTFL) has won in that span. Also losing 3 straight slam quarterfinals in a row last year to the same player, losing 6 out of 7 sets in those. Yep that is beating top players to a pulp alright.

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 09:06 AM
Yes, saying your opponent hit a lot of lucky shots is very gracious.



Was Serena injured at the French last year? Was she injured at the French in '03, or wait, was it the antics of the French crowd that helped Henin win that match, or was it lucky shots? Was Serena injured when she lost to Henin at Charleston in '03, when she was in great form and hubristically talking about how she wanted to go unbeaten for the entire year?

If you want to play that sort of "let's put an asterisk on every one of Henin's wins over S. Williams," why not turn it around? Why not blame Henin's narrow loss to Serena in Miami '07 to the fact that Serena was more match fit, having just won the AO whereas Henin had been out for months due to her divorce?

The fact is that whether or not Serena was injured or "coming back" from injury, she stepped out on court, she decided she was fit enough to face some of the world's best players, and her results should stand as they are. Her losses don't need to be explained away with ridiculous asterisks, just like Justine's recent losses don't need to be explained away with theories about her health or knee problems. Considering that up until recently Serena was always "coming back" from being away from the tour for various reasons, it's WAY too convenient to excuse her losses that way.

First of all you're trying to twist things. I never said Justine was a slob, nor did I come up with any excuses for either of them's wins. That's you. I agree with if you go on court you're fit to play which is why I laugh out loud at the Fed has mono threads. I don't try to have it both ways. My opinion is that Serena is the better player, regardless of ranking.

PS-Show me where I explained away anything. The only loss I recall was Wimbledon where it was obvious she was injured!

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 09:11 AM
Being able to hit super powerful groundstrokes (when they actually go in) doesn't make you the best ever. Serena's unforced error count is usually through the roof and her footwork is sloppy, but it's her commitment to playing tennis that is the worst.


Obviously they go in enough, or she wouldn't have the sparkling resume she has. That's how good she is, she can make 100+ errors and still beat the "best." Serena is the bomb!

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
04-20-2008, 09:11 AM
Here's what I don't understand. Who's to say what her level of commitment to tennis is? How does a poster know? It's funny to me how when Vee and Ree did photo shoots, commercials, etc., there weren't committed. But when Sharapova does it, her commitment is STILL to tennis. How so? What's the difference. That commitment to tennis b.s is just that. When Serena and Venus have been off it has usually been attributed to their injuries, so what are they supposed to do, sit at home in hiding because they're hurt? These double standards irritate me. Apply them across the board!


A lot of people go by what they read in the media and hear from commentators, and you will find a lot of people will find all types of reason to "not like" both girls. "Bad Sportsmanship, grunt too load...etc", what I think gets people is that what they have accomplished has been done the unconventional way that defied all negative odds.

I like the fact that they have outside interests from tennis because when things go wrong, you won't be reading about them contemplating suicide *Capriati* because they have nothing else to fall back on but a dream. The double standards won't be applied across the board with either woman simply because of whom they are.


Serena seems to be healthy and nearing top form, and if Henin is “injured” she will shut up about it and get the damn surgery. What seems t be eating at everyone's craw is that she is playing well again, and there is nobody to stop her at the moment.

lambielspins
04-20-2008, 09:12 AM
Serena was injured at Wimbledon, but at the French and U.S Opens she was just outplayed by Justine. In fairness Serena outplayed Justine the last 2 years at the Nasdaq and beat her. So if you want to be generous to Serena and disregard her loss at Wimbledon it would be 2-2, unless you are going to go back to matches that took place a whopping 5 years ago and somehow argue that is a good basis for who is the better player now. French Open and U.S Open > Nasdaq.

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
04-20-2008, 09:20 AM
Serena was injured at Wimbledon, but at the French and U.S Opens she was just outplayed by Justine. In fairness Serena outplayed Justine the last 2 years at the Nasdaq and beat her. So if you want to be generous to Serena and disregard her loss at Wimbledon it would be 2-2, unless you are going to go back to matches that took place a whopping 5 years ago and somehow argue that is a good basis for who is the better player now. French Open and U.S Open > Nasdaq.

Nobody is discarding anything; Justine beat her fair and square. Now if you want to be generous for your beloved "Juju", you can disregard the last meeting because she was "injured". :roll:

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 09:25 AM
Only 2 slams in the last 4 and a half year. I would say she has done very well negating her talent on her own.



This is where you are so mistaken:

Court- 24 slams
Graf- 22 slams
Evert- 18 slams
Navratilova 18 slams


Serena- 8 slams

You can see how far she is the one behind in number those who to some extent as you put it "ate, breathed, and lived tennis". I even left out those "long dress" players from ancient times who you disregarded earlier.



As her 2 slams titles in the last 4 and a half years show. Just beating the tour to a pulp with all those wins eh. Less then half what Henin has won in that span, less then a very young Sharapova has won in that span, only the same # that Mauresmo (ROTFL) has won in that span. Also losing 3 straight slam quarterfinals in a row last year to the same player, losing 6 out of 7 sets in those. Yep that is beating top players to a pulp alright.

Are we forgetting that the time span includes injuries and tragedy? Or is it simply convenient to do so?

That cracks me up how the "number" means so much. Which of those listed is considered the greatest? It sure isn't Court who has the most, which makes me wonder what indeed is the criteria. It seems they apply it to whomever they want, but the game that they played doesn't fit into today's game, therefore I will not take old stats and apply them to today's game. That is illogical to me. Even Evert said yesterday today's game doesn't even slightly resemble the game they played, so how can their numbers even apply?

Less than half what Henin did when Henin was on the tour playing and Serena was off due to injury. That's fair. LOL! How cool the way you omit that right before 3 QF's she was done a set and a break to Justine and came back and took the match. Then, after coming back again administered a 0-2 beatdown which makes the h2h 2-3, which doesn't support superiority either. Never mind Serena only played four tournaments one year as opposed to Justine's how many? If you're going to make an argument please include all the particular. I love how you all only report what you think supports your case and leave out so much pertinent information.

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 09:28 AM
A lot of people go by what they read in the media and hear from commentators, and you will find a lot of people will find all types of reason to "not like" both girls. "Bad Sportsmanship, grunt too load...etc", what I think gets people is that what they have accomplished has been done the unconventional way that defied all negative odds.

I like the fact that they have outside interests from tennis because when things go wrong, you won't be reading about them contemplating suicide *Capriati* because they have nothing else to fall back on but a dream. The double standards won't be applied across the board with either woman simply because of whom they are.


Serena seems to be healthy and nearing top form, and if Henin is “injured” she will shut up about it and get the damn surgery. What seems t be eating at everyone's craw is that she is playing well again, and there is nobody to stop her at the moment.

That is so well put. It amazes me how we have to hear regurgitated drivel from the commentators booth. That people try to defend it is unreal!

lambielspins
04-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Are we forgetting that the time span includes injuries and tragedy? Or is it simply convenient to do so?

That cracks me up how the "number" means so much. Which of those listed is considered the greatest? It sure isn't Court who has the most, which makes me wonder what indeed is the criteria. It seems they apply it to whomever they want, but the game that they played doesn't fit into today's game, therefore I will not take old stats and apply them to today's game. That is illogical to me. Even Evert said yesterday today's game doesn't even slightly resemble the game they played, so how can their numbers even apply?

Less than half what Henin did when Henin was on the tour playing and Serena was off due to injury. That's fair. LOL! How cool the way you omit that right before 3 QF's she was done a set and a break to Justine and came back and took the match. Then, after coming back again administered a 0-2 beatdown which makes the h2h 2-3, which doesn't support superiority either. Never mind Serena only played four tournaments one year as opposed to Justine's how many? If you're going to make an argument please include all the particular. I love how you all only report what you think supports your case and leave out so much pertinent information.

The game being different doesnt make it better. In Evert's day they played with wood raquets so of course the game was different. Do you think Serena would have been crushing the ball like she and others do if she were born to be in her prime in the 70s and played with wood in her hands. Graf won her 22 slams in the modern game anyway though, and Navratilova even won alot of her slams in the modern game. What are you going to argue, todays womens field is tougher then before, ROTFL!! Todays womens field sucks, it is a mess of injuries, inconsistency, early retirements, choking queens, a complete joke. Yet even with a field like that Serena still cant come close to these players in slam count somehow.

Yes you are right most dont rate Court on top but it is that whole Australian Open factor which would be another topic altogether. Because of this she really is more an 18-slam winner in most peoples estimation then a 24.

So you want to point out Serena had to come from way behind to beat Justine in her 1 win last year before her 3 quarterfinal losses. OK so you brought that up, how is that an argument in Serena's favor vs Justine. Her 3 losses were in the slams, the slams are by far the most important events and Justine won each. Also you are basically showing Serena needed Justine to choke away a big lead in order to get 1 of her 2 wins over Justine in the last couple years as well. I actually didnt bring that match up and the circumstances of her win since it would have been seen as a way of diminishing Serena if I did, but you brought it up on your own accord anyway.

Serena was not off "most" of the last 4+ years to injury. There have been 17 slams. Serena has played the vast majority of them. Look for yourself:

2004 Australian - did not play
2004 French - lost to Capriati in quarters
2004 Wimbledon- lost to Sharapova in final
2004 U.S Open- lost to Capriati in quarters
2005 Australian- won
2005 French- did not play
2005 Wimbledon- lost to Craybas in 3rd round
2005 U.S Open- lost to Venus in 4th round
2006 Australian- lost to Hantuchova in 3rd round
2006 French- did not play
2006 Wimbledon- did not play
2006 U.S Open- lost to Mauresmo in 4th round
2007 Australian- won
2007 French- lost to Henin in quarters
2007 Wimbledon- lost to Henin in quarters
2007 U.S Open- lost to Henin in quarters
2008 Australian- lost to Jankovic in quarters

So she only missed 4 of the 17 slams with injury. That is not "most". As her results show she is so far from dominant it is not even funny. Justine has also missed some slams with injury, similar to Serena. When you consider Justine's mono and other injuries she only has been about as healthy as Serena these last 4+ years:

2004 Australian- won
2004 French- lost 2nd round to Golovin
2004 Wimbledon- did not play
2004 U.S Open- lost 4th round to Petrova
2005 Australian- did not play
2005 French- won
2005 Wimbledon- lost 1st round to Daniilidou
2005 U.S Open- lost 4th round to Pierce
2006 Australian- lost final to Mauresmo
2006 French- won
2006 Wimbledon- lost final to Mauresmo
2006 U.S Open- lost final to Sharapova
2007 Australian- did not play
2007 French- won
2007 Wimbledon- lost semi to Bartoli
2007 U.S Open- won
2008 Australian- lost quarters to Sharapova

So Justine has missed 3 of 17 slams events with injury, almost the same # as Serena who missed 4 of 17. She has had her rough spots too but as one can plainly see her record in slams over the last 4+ years shows far better success then Serena by a long shot.

Justine has dealt with a serious case of mono, injuries, a divorce, an unstable family situation. If Serena played some of those slams not fully healthy so did Justine. She was certainly not healthy for the 2004 French Open, 2004 U.S Open, 2005 U.S Open, given that she took considerable time off soon after to deal with it. So she has had just as much as Serena these last 4+ years.

lambielspins
04-20-2008, 09:49 AM
Nobody is discarding anything; Justine beat her fair and square. Now if you want to be generous for your beloved "Juju", you can disregard the last meeting because she was "injured". :roll:

My beloved Justine you say. So anyone who points out the truth that Justine has been far more successful then Serena since the start of 2004 by a long shot must be an avid Justine supporter. Such great logic there but to be expected around here sadly. :rolleyes: For the record Justine is not even close to my favorite player although I will root for her against Maria or Serena, but that has much more to do with them then it does with Justine.

I never said Justine's last meeting with Serena should be disregarded or that she was too "injured" so dont put words in my mouth. Justine is playing crap tennis now I agree, it isnt injury though, it is her own fault.

tintin
04-20-2008, 09:51 AM
the best matches of the year for me was the utter destruction of Henin :lol::lol: by Williams and Sharapova although I cannot stand either player or their game.;)

janipyt05
04-20-2008, 10:09 AM
She had a great career. Could you imagine what she could have done if she only loved tennis at least to some extent and not play it as a fastest way to make your own parfume and go to shopping ?

Serena has not stopped playing so she still has her career until she stops then you can say she had, yes she may have achieved more had she played through injury, or played when she didn't have the passion, or played while her sister got murded or played while her grand mother died, that's a lot to ask of someone who isn't an athlet what more her who is. Mind tennis a travelling sport so if she was going through things don't you think she deserved the time to work it all out and come back and give her best, all thing considering i think Serena has done well for herself, there is right now no-one with as many titles combined as she has.

Serena rightly took the time out to get herself together, what is so wrong in that, given the fact that when she came back ready to focus the first thing she did was win a slam, this year so far she has won Bangalore and Miami right now is in the Family circle cup final, that has to count for something.

Serena was also very injured during a lot of the time out and rightly so she did other things, why should she sit on her bum and do nothing, you trying to tell me if you where in her position you would just wait till you get back and not try to do other things with your life. What a sad thought.

Serena is still a threat it is always said never count Serena out for a reason because time and again she has proved she is a worthy contender, why people dismiss her is beyond me even if you don't like her style it has done a lot for the game.

And i disagree that people post hateful comments with no real basis, yes i can agree Serena at times doesn't say nices things about her oppenents but i think i recenet times that has changed. People quote only very few instances where she has not been to kind but by in large she has been forth coming with comments about her opponents, loses gracefully, what more could you ask for. She is a great player or should would not have the results to show.

James
04-20-2008, 12:16 PM
So Justine has missed 3 of 17 slams events with injury, almost the same # as Serena who missed 4 of 17. She has had her rough spots too but as one can plainly see her record in slams over the last 4+ years shows far better success then Serena by a long shot.

Justine has dealt with a serious case of mono, injuries, a divorce, an unstable family situation. If Serena played some of those slams not fully healthy so did Justine. She was certainly not healthy for the 2004 French Open, 2004 U.S Open, 2005 U.S Open, given that she took considerable time off soon after to deal with it. So she has had just as much as Serena these last 4+ years.

Thank you, this is exactly my point. Putting an asterisk next to every one of Serena's losses and absences just because she wasn't at her 100% health-wise is a ridiculous endeavor, because the same could be done for other top players.

Djokovicfan4life
04-20-2008, 12:35 PM
I agree that Serena is dominating right now. I have one small gripe, however. I can't stand how Cliffy keeps being a suck up and praising Serena after every point. Navratalova criticized her footwork when Cornet, a talented player, was up two breaks, and he comes back by saying garbage like, "As always, it's always about Serena". Cornet had nothing but good things to say about Serena, she doesn't deserve that kind of disrespect. Simply classless.

end rant

Steffi-forever
04-20-2008, 12:54 PM
The game being different doesnt make it better. In Evert's day they played with wood raquets so of course the game was different. Do you think Serena would have been crushing the ball like she and others do if she were born to be in her prime in the 70s and played with wood in her hands. Graf won her 22 slams in the modern game anyway though, and Navratilova even won alot of her slams in the modern game. What are you going to argue, todays womens field is tougher then before, ROTFL!! Todays womens field sucks, it is a mess of injuries, inconsistency, early retirements, choking queens, a complete joke. Yet even with a field like that Serena still cant come close to these players in slam count somehow.

Yes you are right most dont rate Court on top but it is that whole Australian Open factor which would be another topic altogether. Because of this she really is more an 18-slam winner in most peoples estimation then a 24.

So you want to point out Serena had to come from way behind to beat Justine in her 1 win last year before her 3 quarterfinal losses. OK so you brought that up, how is that an argument in Serena's favor vs Justine. Her 3 losses were in the slams, the slams are by far the most important events and Justine won each. Also you are basically showing Serena needed Justine to choke away a big lead in order to get 1 of her 2 wins over Justine in the last couple years as well. I actually didnt bring that match up and the circumstances of her win since it would have been seen as a way of diminishing Serena if I did, but you brought it up on your own accord anyway.

Serena was not off "most" of the last 4+ years to injury. There have been 17 slams. Serena has played the vast majority of them. Look for yourself:

2004 Australian - did not play
2004 French - lost to Capriati in quarters
2004 Wimbledon- lost to Sharapova in final
2004 U.S Open- lost to Capriati in quarters
2005 Australian- won
2005 French- did not play
2005 Wimbledon- lost to Craybas in 3rd round
2005 U.S Open- lost to Venus in 4th round
2006 Australian- lost to Hantuchova in 3rd round
2006 French- did not play
2006 Wimbledon- did not play
2006 U.S Open- lost to Mauresmo in 4th round
2007 Australian- won
2007 French- lost to Henin in quarters
2007 Wimbledon- lost to Henin in quarters
2007 U.S Open- lost to Henin in quarters
2008 Australian- lost to Jankovic in quarters

So she only missed 4 of the 17 slams with injury. That is not "most". As her results show she is so far from dominant it is not even funny. Justine has also missed some slams with injury, similar to Serena. When you consider Justine's mono and other injuries she only has been about as healthy as Serena these last 4+ years:

2004 Australian- won
2004 French- lost 2nd round to Golovin
2004 Wimbledon- did not play
2004 U.S Open- lost 4th round to Petrova
2005 Australian- did not play
2005 French- won
2005 Wimbledon- lost 1st round to Daniilidou
2005 U.S Open- lost 4th round to Pierce
2006 Australian- lost final to Mauresmo
2006 French- won
2006 Wimbledon- lost final to Mauresmo
2006 U.S Open- lost final to Sharapova
2007 Australian- did not play
2007 French- won
2007 Wimbledon- lost semi to Bartoli
2007 U.S Open- won
2008 Australian- lost quarters to Sharapova

So Justine has missed 3 of 17 slams events with injury, almost the same # as Serena who missed 4 of 17. She has had her rough spots too but as one can plainly see her record in slams over the last 4+ years shows far better success then Serena by a long shot.

Justine has dealt with a serious case of mono, injuries, a divorce, an unstable family situation. If Serena played some of those slams not fully healthy so did Justine. She was certainly not healthy for the 2004 French Open, 2004 U.S Open, 2005 U.S Open, given that she took considerable time off soon after to deal with it. So she has had just as much as Serena these last 4+ years.

And being dominant, it's also at the others tournaments :
SERENA
2004
Miami WON
Charleston QF
Amelia Island 3t
Rome SF
Los Angeles F
San Diego QF
Beijing WON
Linz 2t
Masters F
2005
Paris QF
Dubai SF
Miami QF
Amelia Island QF
Rome 2t
Toronto 3t
Beijing 2t
2006
Cincinnati SF
Los Angeles SF
2007
Hobart QF
Miami WON
Charleston 2t
Rome QF
Stuttgart QF
Moscow F
Zurich 2t
2008
Bangalore WON
Miami WON
Charleston WON

JUSTINE
2004
Sydney WON
Dubai WON
Doha SF
Indian Wells WON
Amelia Island SF
Olympics Athens WON
2005
Miami QF
Charleston WON
Warsaw WON
Berlin WON
Toronto F
Filderstadt 2t
2006
Sydney WON
Dubai WON
Indian Wells SF
Miami 2t
Charleston SF
Berlin F
Eastbourne WON
New Haven WON
Masters WON
2007
Paris SF
Dubai WON
Doha WON
Miami F
Warsaw WON
Berlin SF
Eastbourne WON
Toronto WON
Stuttgart WON
Zurich WON
Masters WON
2008
Sydney WON
Antwerp WON
Dubai QF
Miami QF

Justine is way more dominant!

Steffi-forever
04-20-2008, 01:00 PM
So, good for Serena, though. This is the first time since 2003 that she's winning 3 tournaments in a row (Australian Open, Paris and Miami).
If she's winning the French, she will equal Monica and will possess the 4 Grand Slam at least 2 times!

janipyt05
04-20-2008, 02:34 PM
accept Serena has done the Grand slam in both singles and doubles and 2 slams in mixed Justine still trying to win wimbledon. Far as i'm concerned Serena leaves J.H in the dust.

lambielspins
04-20-2008, 02:36 PM
Graf, Court, Navratilova, Evert leave all of Serena, Venus, and JH in their dust in a big way. That is the bottom line. Career wise Serena is much closer to those other two then she is to those first four.

janipyt05
04-20-2008, 02:42 PM
^^ i don't think anyone is questioning that. So you really have no point because i haven't read anyone bring any of the four you mention into contention with Serena. Yet Serena is the only the fifth person behind Graf to gain the grandslam. I do believe Justine was in all four finals in a year and only brought back the french open

MEAC_ALLAMERICAN
04-20-2008, 02:50 PM
Graf, Court, Navratilova, Evert leave all of Serena, Venus, and JH in their dust in a big way. That is the bottom line. Career wise Serena is much closer to those other two then she is to those first four.

Leave Venus out of this, this is about Serena and the legacy she is building. :D

I like how that sounds. :twisted:

Mick
04-20-2008, 02:50 PM
JH has a disadvantage because she's a small woman in a field of taller and stronger women. Serena is a larger woman but it doesn't seem to affect her court movement at all.

lambielspins
04-20-2008, 03:03 PM
^^ i don't think anyone is questioning that. So you really have no point because i haven't read anyone bring any of the four you mention into contention with Serena.

Obviously you have not read over this thread too carefully:

Serena Williams is the best player ever, bar none.

The aforementioned played in a different era, a different game, no comparison in my book!

TheTruth
04-20-2008, 03:49 PM
^^^
If I think Serena is the best player to me, why does that bother you?

janipyt05
04-20-2008, 11:18 PM
I have to say this has been fun, we all had opinions without calling each other names and making fun of other peoples comments.

So just to say thank you everyone who has made comments in this thread. Even if we didn't agree we all managed to have respect for each other

bluetrain4
04-20-2008, 11:43 PM
Serena deserves a lot of credit for her career, even considering what some call her "wasted" talent.

She has earned the right to be called a tennis great, a tennis legend. 8 Slams (including at least one of every Slam), Olympic gold, doubles Slams, the No 1 ranking. As of right now, you could legitimately place her right around the Top 10 all time (though I wouldn't yet).

But, she's nowhere near the greatest of all time.

MJ the ANGEL
04-21-2008, 07:59 AM
^^^
If I think Serena is the best player to me, why does that bother you?



I do wonder too why some people fearly don't want us to think serena IS the best on the 2000's , it seems that bother them we don't have the same opinion than them .

To me Serena is way better at her best than this Justine Henin at her best , the two at their best in a match , justine would not even take a game ;
She is a luky winner of GS after the murder of the Williams sister in 2003 things were no longer the same in their mind, justine took adavantage of this to win her 4 first GS lol .

If serena wins a GS this year she will equal monica Seles :)


Go serena you the very Greatest , the Very Greatest .

TheTruth
04-21-2008, 04:06 PM
I have to say this has been fun, we all had opinions without calling each other names and making fun of other peoples comments.

So just to say thank you everyone who has made comments in this thread. Even if we didn't agree we all managed to have respect for each other

Totally agree with you!

kungfusmkim
04-21-2008, 05:30 PM
I voted for serena on a this thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=189206 the odds were 1-11 in the posts atleast not the poll. 1 was me and the 11 was the others and guess who one? in straight sets? And guess who also voted for her in straight sets? i did cause you know why? I'm smart :P

kungfusmkim
04-21-2008, 05:34 PM
WHo is the 1 person that voted Serena in 2?

You my friend, are clairvoyant.

So i guess i am

Lee James
04-21-2008, 06:33 PM
I've got an interesting question...all factors being equal, how would some of the greats of yesteryear fare against Serena Williams?

The reason I ask is because I think that if you go by the stats, meaning the amount of gram slams won, obviously Serena isn't even in the same stratosphere. However, on a talent vs. talent basis, matched up against the best, I think she would fare pretty well. I thing Steffi & Monica would be able to give her fits, but I'm not so sure about the others.

TennisDawg
04-21-2008, 09:53 PM
And i disagree that people post hateful comments with no real basis, yes i can agree Serena at times doesn't say nices things about her oppenents but i think i recenet times that has changed. People quote only very few instances where she has not been to kind but by in large she has been forth coming with comments about her opponents, loses gracefully, what more could you ask for. She is a great player or should would not have the results to show.

A few tidbits of 2007 U.S. Open interview with Serena. Yea, Justine has made a lot of lucky shots, her whole career.

J. HENIN/S. Williams
7 6, 6 1
An interview with:
SERENA WILLIAMS
THE MODERATOR: Questions, please.
Q. Can you explain what went wrong out there tonight?
SERENA WILLIAMS: No, I can't. I'm sorry. Any more questions?
Q. Do you think fitness was an issue in this match?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I'm very fit. I can run for hours.
Q. So what do you think was the difference tonight?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I just said I can't explain that right now. I just don't know, so I can't help you there.
You guys I think watched it. Maybe you can analyze it better. I haven't been able to watch it yet.
Q. Can you describe your emotions after the match? Are you devastated by this loss?
SERENA WILLIAMS: No. I'm very happy.
Q. You fought pretty hard to get back into the first set. She played a good tiebreak. Second set, your level seemed to drop.
SERENA WILLIAMS: No, I just think she played better. I just think she made a lot of lucky shots, and I made a lot of errors. I don't think my level dropped.