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AmeliasDad
04-23-2008, 04:41 PM
Can someone give a definition what plow through means- I 'm not sure I've eve felt what I would describe as plow through when playing tennis or maybe I have w/out knowing it.

iplaybetter
04-23-2008, 04:46 PM
i know it as when a frame is too heavy and you just "plow through" the ball, not hit it a fluidity
its hard to explain

bcast66
04-23-2008, 04:52 PM
i think of it like this. you swing at a ball and the racquet somehow does the work making it feel effortless.

iplaybetter
04-23-2008, 04:54 PM
i would like to add that i have been told it is bad

Anton
04-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Plowthrough refers to the racket's ability to push the ball around - the less ball impacts affect the frame's path, the more it feels as if the racket plows through the ball.

It certainly is a good trait.

kanjii
04-23-2008, 05:25 PM
Picture if you will an 18 wheel semi truck going head to head with a very small vehicle...at point of impact that bad boy 18 wheeler just plows through the vehicle as if it was nothing...that my friend is the feeling you get with your PDRs :)

pow
04-23-2008, 05:57 PM
It's the feeling of a racquet crushing the ball on impact, the racquets that had that feeling for me were the nsix-one 95, tour 90, and Redondo mid. Feel the weight crush the ball, after the first hit, plowing the ball was the first thought that came to my head.

dakels
04-23-2008, 06:12 PM
If you look at these high speed videos of fed, you can see how much deflection the ball can cause in slow motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPaZj4yn00

Plow through is helped greatly by CONTACT POINT, racquet weight, weight placement, racquet specs, strings, stringing, but most important factor is your swing and your own weight behind the ball. These are all examples of Fed using one of the heaviest racquets known for it's plow through ability, yet you see different reactions every time. Swing is a huge factor, but in general, heavy racquets with good flex tend to help drive through balls better as compared to light ones with more instability.

While we are talking about plow through with a racquet here, in general it is good to learn and understand this trait as an ability to help reflect power and spin (heavy shots).

Agent Orynge
04-23-2008, 06:17 PM
In a word; momentum.

johnathan smith
04-23-2008, 06:18 PM
you guys are doing a great job in explaining, but the best way to understand what ploe through is in my opinion is to go hit with a K Factor 6.1 (16x18, or 18x20)
You will then understand....

Voltron
04-23-2008, 06:32 PM
you (John, meet capitalization, capitalization, meet John) guys are doing a great job in (should be of) explaining, but the best way to understand what ploe (plow perhaps?) through is in my opinion is (poor sentence structure here) to go hit with a K Factor 6.1 (16x18, or 18x20) <-- Where is the period?
You will then understand.... <-- This is just wrong on so many levels.

Wow, way to try to end that with an epic statement, but personally, I don't think the K95 has any "plow through" effect at all against the caliber of players I generally hit with. By the way, I decided to rip your post apart to look for spelling and grammatical errors.

I would disagree with the comments on weight being the main factor, it really depends a lot on who you're playing. For instance, if my coach bombs his 139 MPH serve down the T, my racquet is going to be battered around unless I hit the sweet spot just perfect, no matter how heavy it is. (unless I'm playing with a brick ;))

johnathan smith
04-23-2008, 06:40 PM
Wow, way to try to end that with an epic statement, but personally, I don't think the K95 has any "plow through" effect at all against the caliber of players I generally hit with.

I would disagree with the comments on weight being the main factor, it really depends a lot on who you're playing. For instance, if my coach bombs his 139 MPH serve down the T, my racquet is going to be battered around unless I hit the sweet spot just perfect, no matter how heavy it is. (unless I'm playing with a brick ;))

That's real nice, but for us normal folk who don't practice with the likes of Monfils and Safin all day(BS), the feeling of the K-factor 6.1 (or the NCODE/HPS) whatever version really offers a stable response. The 6.1 frames weight, plus stiffness offers a substantial plow through effect on the ball. It's an easy way to experiance it first hand if you are new to the sport. By the way, I do not use Wilson frames at all.
I would assume that 99.9% of TW posters would agree with my assertion concerning the 6.1 series of frames.

Voltron
04-23-2008, 06:49 PM
That's real nice, but for us normal folk who don't practice with the likes of Monfils and Safin all day(BS), the feeling of the K-factor 6.1 (or the NCODE/HPS) whatever version really offers a stable response. The 6.1 frames weight, plus stiffness offers a substantial plow through effect on the ball. It's an easy way to experiance it first hand if you are new to the sport. By the way, I do not use Wilson frames at all.
I would assume that 99.9% of TW posters would agree with my assertion concerning the 6.1 series of frames.

Oh, I'm not saying the 6.1 series isn't stable or has no "plow through" effect, I'm simply saying that the 95 sq inch models have relatively little effect when compared to frames like the K90, N90, or most Prestige Mids. Or other heavy players frames. (I will admit, weight is a factor, but I still think it depends a lot on who you hit with.) I wish I could hit with Safin, but I'm stuck here with ranked juniors and high level coaches. Oh, and 99.9 percent is a risky number to use.

stormholloway
04-23-2008, 06:51 PM
I think the K95 makes up a bit for it's lack of mass in its stiffness, as far as plow through goes.

Shredding his grammar was a bit much though. I cringed.

matchmaker
04-23-2008, 06:52 PM
You have to feel it to know it. I have some old wilson reflexes and since I have them I know what plow through means. They crush the ball and even with a half fast swing you feel the ball accelerating when it comes off your string bed. The negative issue about plow through is that you would only find it in heavy racquets with a high swingweight so you would have to be all the time focused on making early preparation. But when you do so you will play your best tennis ever.

Agent Orynge
04-23-2008, 07:09 PM
Alright, to further elaborate on my first post;

That 'plow through' effect to which we're referring is momentum, plain and simple. The racquet striking the ball is what's called an inelastic collision, meaning the two do not rebound in opposite directions. The equation for momentum is denoted as p=mv, or momentum = mass times velocity. Therefor, weight and velocity are the main factors in determining plow through.

Voltron
04-23-2008, 07:10 PM
I think the K95 makes up a bit for it's lack of mass in its stiffness, as far as plow through goes.

Shredding his grammar was a bit much though. I cringed.

The K95 isn't really too bad, but it's certainly not nearly as amazing as he was making it out to be. He seemed really pompous, so I was simply trying to cut him down to size through his grammar.

Demoneye
04-23-2008, 07:52 PM
is ther plow thru on a pdr+?
is it good or bad ?
and wheres the new babolat pure storm limited cmon man

BreakPoint
04-23-2008, 07:56 PM
Alright, to further elaborate on my first post;

That 'plow through' effect to which we're referring is momentum, plain and simple. The racquet striking the ball is what's called an inelastic collision, meaning the two do not rebound in opposite directions. The equation for momentum is denoted as p=mv, or momentum = mass times velocity. Therefor, weight and velocity are the main factors in determining plow through.
Yes, but you can't swing a light racquet fast enough to compensate for its lack of mass. That's why heavier racquets give you more plow-through than lighter racquets do.

Also, lighter racquets transmit more shock and vibration which take away from the feel of plowing through.

stormholloway
04-23-2008, 08:01 PM
The K95 isn't really too bad, but it's certainly not nearly as amazing as he was making it out to be. He seemed really pompous, so I was simply trying to cut him down to size through his grammar.

Well simply listing a racquet that he likes doesn't exactly address the topic.

AmeliasDad
04-24-2008, 04:22 AM
So let me pose this question... can a racquet have good feel and plow through? Seems to me that it has to have one or the other-but not both, am I right?

Bubba
04-24-2008, 05:43 AM
Alright, to further elaborate on my first post;

That 'plow through' effect to which we're referring is momentum, plain and simple. The racquet striking the ball is what's called an inelastic collision, meaning the two do not rebound in opposite directions. The equation for momentum is denoted as p=mv, or momentum = mass times velocity. Therefor, weight and velocity are the main factors in determining plow through.

AO hey mate... by the way, I was in the 4/325 at Bragg for 4 yrs... you from/in the 82nd? Unit?

Anyway, actually momentum is the result of plow through. Plow through is a function of the net sum of the velocity of the ball and the mass and velocity of the frame. With plow through, we are essentially stating the frames ability to overcome the momentum of the ball at impact. Therefore, a heavier frame (e.g. mass) will have a bigger plow through effect than a light frame. Additionally, even though you can generate a faster swing rate with a lighter frame, it wont have the same plow through as a heavier frame swung at a lower velocity. With plow through, mass is the key - combined with a reasonable swing (velocity)

Bubba
04-24-2008, 05:43 AM
So let me pose this question... can a racquet have good feel and plow through? Seems to me that it has to have one or the other-but not both, am I right?

Nope. The K90 for instance has huge plow through and is one of the best feel/touch frames out there.

Voltron
04-24-2008, 06:08 AM
Well simply listing a racquet that he likes doesn't exactly address the topic. Exactly, that's part of the reason I cut him down.

stormholloway
04-24-2008, 08:28 AM
I think racquets with more plow through, generally, have more feel because mass transmits feel, essentially. This may not be true for overly stiff racquets. The K90 has superb feel however.

jgreen06
04-24-2008, 10:07 AM
play with an hps6.1 and you will know what plow through is

BreakPoint
04-24-2008, 10:55 AM
So let me pose this question... can a racquet have good feel and plow through? Seems to me that it has to have one or the other-but not both, am I right?
No, not at all. To me, having plow-through is a big part of what makes a racquet feel good.

AmeliasDad
04-24-2008, 10:57 AM
This is finally beginning to make some sense to me.

hotseat
04-24-2008, 01:16 PM
plow through is only important if you have bad footwork/conditioning and don't plan on getting in position to hit the majority of the balls in any given rally.

hotseat
04-24-2008, 01:17 PM
plow through is only important if you have bad footwork/conditioning and don't plan on getting in position to hit the majority of the balls in any given rally.

can't believe i'm quoting myself but........

forgot to add, plow through helps reduce shock when hitting balls off center, which is primarily caused by the factors i listed in the previous post

Agent Orynge
04-24-2008, 01:42 PM
Yes, but you can't swing a light racquet fast enough to compensate for its lack of mass. That's why heavier racquets give you more plow-through than lighter racquets do.

Also, lighter racquets transmit more shock and vibration which take away from the feel of plowing through.

I was simply stating that velocity was also a factor. Anyone who's telling me that mass is key in a collision (as far as tennis goes) is preaching to the choir.

AO hey mate... by the way, I was in the 4/325 at Bragg for 4 yrs... you from/in the 82nd? Unit?

Anyway, actually momentum is the result of plow through. Plow through is a function of the net sum of the velocity of the ball and the mass and velocity of the frame. With plow through, we are essentially stating the frames ability to overcome the momentum of the ball at impact. Therefore, a heavier frame (e.g. mass) will have a bigger plow through effect than a light frame. Additionally, even though you can generate a faster swing rate with a lighter frame, it wont have the same plow through as a heavier frame swung at a lower velocity. With plow through, mass is the key - combined with a reasonable swing (velocity)

I'll hit my 4 year mark this June, with another 2 before I ETS. I've been in 1/325 since December of '04.

We may be splitting hairs here, but according to the law of conservation of momentum the sum of the momentum of each of the objects before the collision is equal to the sum of the momentum of each of the objects after the collision. Therefor mometum is a factor both before and after the collision, and is no less the cause of the momentum than the result of it. There isn't MORE momentum after the collision, but the velocity of the ball after the collision is directly proportional to the mass of the racquet because the ball weighs so much less. To be honest, I think the 'plow through' effect we're discussing here has less to do with simple mass ratios as it does with momentum as it relates to the inelasticity of the collision (in which case energy becomes a factor as well).

Basically I think we see eye to eye, but someone mistook my last post to mean that velocity was the defining characteristic of 'plow through', and that's simply not the case.

Agent Orynge
04-24-2008, 05:58 PM
Don't let the physics scare you people; it's all on wikipedia. And a little common sense goes a long way...

bluegrasser
04-25-2008, 05:31 AM
The way I look at " plow through" is hitting a nail with a 26 oz hammer, then hit one witn an 18 oz hammer. One (heavy) has plow through..

Jonas
04-25-2008, 05:45 AM
For the record, the 6.1 series does offer a ton of plow through. I would think that hitting with one of those would be a good way to understand and feel what plow through is all about.

johnathan smith
04-25-2008, 05:53 AM
Are you guys really serious about the grammar stuff on internet message boards??
Do you really take time to proof read all of your posts?
Guys, they are called girls...go out and date them, instead of trying to get that post count to 5,000 :)

Salsa_Lover
04-25-2008, 06:53 AM
Are you guys really serious about the grammar stuff on internet message boards??
Do you really take time to proof read all of your posts?
Guys, they are called girls...go out and date them, instead of trying to get that post count to 5,000 :)

I agree with you Johnathan. those forum bullies need to go out more and get some fresh air.

Agent Orynge
04-25-2008, 08:32 AM
Are you guys really serious about the grammar stuff on internet message boards??
Do you really take time to proof read all of your posts?
Guys, they are called girls...go out and date them, instead of trying to get that post count to 5,000 :)

Pot, meet kettle.

Forum trolls have no business griping about the amount of time others spend online. Fin.

deme08
04-25-2008, 09:59 AM
My POG mid has a great "plow through" feel. Is it due to the small head size or weight? or both?

NoBadMojo
04-25-2008, 10:06 AM
Racquets dont give anyone plow through. The player gives the racquet plow through. A distinction often not understood it seems

It's very simple. heavier racquets have more potential for PT, but only provided the racquet operator has the technique and can swing them fast enough. to that end, just look at the specs

A heavy racquet in the hands of someone who cant make it work = 0 plow through...better off with something better matched to their skillset. something lighter would then give them more plow through..people can and do well compensate for less mass with higher batspeed all the time. dont listen to the stuff posted by the racquet snobs..pick a racquet with the right swingweight for YOU <no matter what it is> and learn how to use it

BreakPoint
04-25-2008, 10:15 AM
Racquets dont give anyone plow through. The player gives the racquet plow through. A distinction often not understood it seems

It's very simple. heavier racquets have more potential for PT, but only provided the racquet operator has the technique and can swing them fast enough. to that end, just look at the specs

A heavy racquet in the hands of someone who cant make it work = 0 plow through...better off with something better matched to their skillset. something lighter would then give them more plow through..people can and do well compensate for less mass with higher batspeed all the time. dont listen to the stuff posted by the racquet snobs..pick a racquet with the right swingweight for YOU <no matter what it is> and learn how to use it
Wow, so if you drive a Mini Cooper and you want to plow through a Hummer in a head-on collision, you should just step on the gas and drive even faster right into the Hummer? Amazing........I guess I should just switch to a 5 oz. racquet and swing for the fences then. :-?

NoBadMojo
04-25-2008, 10:18 AM
Wow, so if you drive a Mini Cooper and you want to plow through a Hummer in a head-on collision, you should just step on the gas and drive even faster right into the Hummer? Amazing........I guess I should just switch to a 5 oz. racquet and swing for the fences then. :-?

i have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. whatever it is, certainly isnt applicable here..or at best is some sort of incredible stretch of logic.

BreakPoint
04-25-2008, 10:29 AM
i have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. whatever it is, certainly isnt applicable here..or at best is some sort of incredible stretch of logic.
What I'm talking about are the laws of physics, which don't change, not even with tennis racquets. No, tennis racquets are not a special case that get an exemption from the laws of physics, not in this universe, anyway.

Pro_Tour_630
04-25-2008, 11:05 AM
for me Plow Through = THUMP = PC 600 & PT630

Anyway we have gone through this before

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=182240&highlight=plow%2A+%2Athrough

Anton
04-25-2008, 02:53 PM
Wow, so if you drive a Mini Cooper and you want to plow through a Hummer in a head-on collision, you should just step on the gas and drive even faster right into the Hummer? Amazing........I guess I should just switch to a 5 oz. racquet and swing for the fences then. :-?

nono you should slow down if you really want to punish that hummer :-|

Of course here we have a hummer in hand that we want to squish toy mini coopers with OBVIOUSLY we want to speed up to plow through them better.

bluegrasser
04-27-2008, 03:25 AM
Wow, so if you drive a Mini Cooper and you want to plow through a Hummer in a head-on collision, you should just step on the gas and drive even faster right into the Hummer? Amazing........I guess I should just switch to a 5 oz. racquet and swing for the fences then. :-?

I knew this was coming :) but really you're both right in a way. I think the correct SW is the most important factor over the course of a match, but plow through, or as I put it *heavy ball* does exist. (eg) when I hit with a...say 12.6 oz stick, the ball just comes off the strings different, it's a heavier ball - the problem for me is, I can only hit that kind of ball for about fifteen minutes due to the fatigue factor.

Bubba
05-04-2008, 03:27 PM
I was simply stating that velocity was also a factor. Anyone who's telling me that mass is key in a collision (as far as tennis goes) is preaching to the choir.



I'll hit my 4 year mark this June, with another 2 before I ETS. I've been in 1/325 since December of '04.

We may be splitting hairs here, but according to the law of conservation of momentum the sum of the momentum of each of the objects before the collision is equal to the sum of the momentum of each of the objects after the collision. Therefor mometum is a factor both before and after the collision, and is no less the cause of the momentum than the result of it. There isn't MORE momentum after the collision, but the velocity of the ball after the collision is directly proportional to the mass of the racquet because the ball weighs so much less. To be honest, I think the 'plow through' effect we're discussing here has less to do with simple mass ratios as it does with momentum as it relates to the inelasticity of the collision (in which case energy becomes a factor as well).

Basically I think we see eye to eye, but someone mistook my last post to mean that velocity was the defining characteristic of 'plow through', and that's simply not the case.

Cool. Have a walk on Long Street for me and a sand run in Area J!

klementine79
05-04-2008, 05:32 PM
Plow through? Adidas GTX pro(1981) really crushes balls, 14+oz., its effortless when you let the stick swing properly. I dont swing it anymore, sentimental reasons.

KFwinds
05-04-2008, 08:00 PM
Agree with all posters who mentioned the Wilson 6.1's... I have hit with dozens of sticks over the past several years, and the 6.1 95's (sorry, but the 90's don't even come close for me) are the best example of "plow through" that you're going to find. Specifically, try either the Classic or the K Factor versions.

RoddickistheMan
05-04-2008, 10:04 PM
playing with a midsize players racquet weighted at 12 ounces will help you experience plow through.

Ross K
05-04-2008, 10:30 PM
I knew this was coming :) plow through, or as I put it *heavy ball* does exist. (eg) when I hit with a...say 12.6 oz stick, the ball just comes off the strings different, it's a heavier ball .

I was waiting for the mention of 'heavy ball'... Anyway, I agree with what bluegrasser says... and FWIW, 2 plow though frames of my acquaintance would be the PSC 6.1 (around 12.6), and the Head Rad Tour XL (around 12.6 and a very, very high SW.)

tom_asdelonge182
05-10-2008, 01:43 AM
would plow through be the feeling that you get when you feel the weight from the racquet do the job for you?

fuzz nation
05-11-2008, 04:52 AM
would plow through be the feeling that you get when you feel the weight from the racquet do the job for you?

In my opinion, abso-tively. A lighter frame feels good when I catch the ball right on the sweetspot, but a heavier frame feels like it won't get pushed around by the ball. For heavy doubles where we're really rippin' on each other, that plow through does a lot of work for me, but it also feels easier to fight off a tougher ball or half-volley with much more confidence. Sure, a lot of the issue is subjective, but when I can just get the racquet in the way of the ball to send it back, that can give me a whole lot of confidence. Very subjective indeed...

JavierLW
05-11-2008, 04:55 PM
Wow, so if you drive a Mini Cooper and you want to plow through a Hummer in a head-on collision, you should just step on the gas and drive even faster right into the Hummer? Amazing........I guess I should just switch to a 5 oz. racquet and swing for the fences then. :-?

Dont use physics for an excuse for why you dont know what you are talking about.

The faster the mini-Cooper goes, the more potential for damage on the Hummer. It may get scrunched just the same either way, but if a mini-Cooper hits a car at 200 mph, even a Hummer is going to get damaged.

If the Hummer is rolling at 2 mph and just bumps into the mini-Cooper, the mini-Cooper may be unharmed as well.

The simple formula for force is (Mass * Acceleration)

And in tennis we are not talking about the difference between a Hummer and a Mini-Cooper, we are talking about objects that are in some cases have a less then 10% difference in mass.

So it's more than reasonable that if you can get a lighter racquet around faster, you can put just as much force on it as you could a heavier racquet that you had a tougher time getting around. (due to poor technique, etc.....)

movdqa
05-11-2008, 05:13 PM
I hit with my son yesterday (he hasn't hit in a long time) and I gave him one of my K90s. He had a lot of trouble getting used to it. He prefers the old Dunlops which weigh 17 ounces and are fairly headlight. He likes the complete lack of vibration on off-center shots with the heavier racquet. He also complained about the K90's stiffness and thought that it was strung tightly even though the Dunlops are strung at 62 and the K90s at 47/48.

Definitely plow-through on the Dunlops.

BreakPoint
05-11-2008, 05:21 PM
Dont use physics for an excuse for why you dont know what you are talking about.

The faster the mini-Cooper goes, the more potential for damage on the Hummer. It may get scrunched just the same either way, but if a mini-Cooper hits a car at 200 mph, even a Hummer is going to get damaged.

If the Hummer is rolling at 2 mph and just bumps into the mini-Cooper, the mini-Cooper may be unharmed as well.

The simple formula for force is (Mass * Acceleration)

And in tennis we are not talking about the difference between a Hummer and a Mini-Cooper, we are talking about objects that are in some cases have a less then 10% difference in mass.

So it's more than reasonable that if you can get a lighter racquet around faster, you can put just as much force on it as you could a heavier racquet that you had a tougher time getting around. (due to poor technique, etc.....)
The Hummer doesn't even have to be moving. What happens to a Mini Cooper travelling at 100mph when it slams into a solid cinder block wall?

If a lighter racquet can put just as much power on the ball as a heavier racquet just by swinging faster (all else being equal) then why are almost all lighter racquets stiffer and thus inherently more powerful? Oh yeah, it's because swinging faster cannot make up for the lack of mass, thus, they also have to make the racquet much stiffer to compensate for the lack of mass in producing power. Otherwise, a 9 oz. racquet with a stiffness of 50 will have very little power no matter how fast you can physically swing it. Your arm just can't swing that much faster or else the pros wouldn't add lead tape to their racquets to increase their swingweight while knowing how important racquet head speed is. You also lose control when you swing too fast, thus, a heavier racquet gives you controllable power.

BTW, you obviously don't know physics because we're not talking about F=ma here, we're talking about p=mv. Yes, I do have a degree in mechanical engineering from an Ivy League university.

anirut
05-11-2008, 05:32 PM
The mini cooper and the hummer scenarios are all off.

The cars are of different CONSTRUCTION.

IF we were to design both of the cars using the same material, but different in weight, the scenario would be more valid.

And, BTW, I agree with Jarvier. That's a much more valid scenario.

Edit: Why not visit www.wreckedexotics.com for some bike-through-a-car pictures? That's plow-through by an object that's only about 15% the weight of a car, but hitting it at "warp speed".

movdqa
05-11-2008, 05:43 PM
The mini cooper and the hummer scenarios are all off.

The cars are of different CONSTRUCTION.

IF we were to design both of the cars using the same material, but different in weight, the scenario would be more valid.

And, BTW, I agree with Jarvier. That's a much more valid scenario.

Edit: Why not visit www.wreckedexotics.com for some bike-through-a-car pictures? That's plow-through by an object that's only about 15% the weight of a car, but hitting it at "warp speed".

My bicycle weighs about 21 pounds and it's from the 1980s so maybe bicycles are lighter today. I'd assume at least 3K pounds for a car. Not sure how you came up with 15%.

anirut
05-11-2008, 05:46 PM
^^
I mean motorbike ....

Mansewerz
05-11-2008, 06:07 PM
My bicycle weighs about 21 pounds and it's from the 1980s so maybe bicycles are lighter today. I'd assume at least 3K pounds for a car. Not sure how you came up with 15%.

^^
I mean motorbike ....

I lol'd
10 chars

Anton
05-11-2008, 06:37 PM
The Hummer doesn't even have to be moving. What happens to a Mini Cooper travelling at 100mph when it slams into a solid cinder block wall?

If a lighter racquet can put just as much power on the ball as a heavier racquet just by swinging faster (all else being equal) then why are almost all lighter racquets stiffer and thus inherently more powerful? Oh yeah, it's because swinging faster cannot make up for the lack of mass, thus, they also have to make the racquet much stiffer to compensate for the lack of mass in producing power. Otherwise, a 9 oz. racquet with a stiffness of 50 will have very little power no matter how fast you can physically swing it. Your arm just can't swing that much faster or else the pros wouldn't add lead tape to their racquets to increase their swingweight while knowing how important racquet head speed is. You also lose control when you swing too fast, thus, a heavier racquet gives you controllable power.

BTW, you obviously don't know physics because we're not talking about F=ma here, we're talking about p=mv. Yes, I do have a degree in mechanical engineering from an Ivy League university.

You are assuming that lighter racket means faster swings - it doesn't - lighter racket will mean faster reaction, but the max speed at the point of impact can be greater with heavier or differently balanced stick. For example the (flat) serve velocity is almost entirely dependent on racket head velocity at the point of impact, yet very fast serves can be had from very heavy frames. Research on details is still ongoing.

P.S. Not even in ivy league does engineering degree make you a tennis gear dynamics specialist...though I'm surprised it's not helping you come up with better arguments either.

LafayetteHitter
05-11-2008, 06:41 PM
http://www.newgarden.org/images/Snow-Plow.jpg

BreakPoint
05-11-2008, 07:24 PM
You are assuming that lighter racket means faster swings - it doesn't - lighter racket will mean faster reaction, but the max speed at the point of impact can be greater with heavier or differently balanced stick. For example the (flat) serve velocity is almost entirely dependent on racket head velocity at the point of impact, yet very fast serves can be had from very heavy frames. Research on details is still ongoing.

P.S. Not even in ivy league does engineering degree make you a tennis gear dynamics specialist...though I'm surprised it's not helping you come up with better arguments either.
Other people are talking about lighter racquets giving faster swings. I'm saying that even a lighter racquet will not allow you to swing the racquet fast enough to compensate for the lack of mass.

BTW, if you know more about this, then please explain to us why most lighter racquets also tend to be stiffer? Could it be to compensate for the lack of mass? According to some people here, all you need to do is to swing the lighter racquet faster to compensate for the lack of mass. If that were the case, there would be no need to make lighter racquets also stiffer, with wider beams, and thus, more powerful.

And, no, research on basic fundamental physics (mechanics) is not ongoing. Issac Newton already figured it all out over 300 years ago. Heavy racquets can give you faster serves because the greater mass transfers more mometum to the ball, provided you can maintain your racquet head speed. The greater mass can also offset a slightly lower swing speed and still produce bigger serves. I can serve huge with heavy racquets like the PS 6.0 85 and the PS Tour 90. It's much harder for me to pound flat serves with lighter racquets even though I can swing them faster.

JavierLW
05-11-2008, 07:50 PM
The Hummer doesn't even have to be moving. What happens to a Mini Cooper travelling at 100mph when it slams into a solid cinder block wall?

If a lighter racquet can put just as much power on the ball as a heavier racquet just by swinging faster (all else being equal) then why are almost all lighter racquets stiffer and thus inherently more powerful? Oh yeah, it's because swinging faster cannot make up for the lack of mass, thus, they also have to make the racquet much stiffer to compensate for the lack of mass in producing power. Otherwise, a 9 oz. racquet with a stiffness of 50 will have very little power no matter how fast you can physically swing it. Your arm just can't swing that much faster or else the pros wouldn't add lead tape to their racquets to increase their swingweight while knowing how important racquet head speed is. You also lose control when you swing too fast, thus, a heavier racquet gives you controllable power.

BTW, you obviously don't know physics because we're not talking about F=ma here, we're talking about p=mv. Yes, I do have a degree in mechanical engineering from an Ivy League university.

Ummm, ya. p=mv doesnt exactly help your argument either. (did they teach you what the v stands for in your Ivy League college??)

Now you are throwing brick walls into it. The material and it's ability to withstand force is a major factor here that does not apply to your argument.

Otherwise I might as well mention how if you throw a penny off of a tall building it could go right thru someone's skull.

Nobody is debating that if you swing two racquets at the same speed, the heavier one will hit the ball somewhat further.

But the common sense observation is that not eveyone can swing the heavier racquet at the same speed, and anyone who's went out and gotten the k90 but doesnt have good form experiences what NBM mentioned, the ball isnt going to go anywhere.

So the point is that you go find the racquet with the most mass that you can handle.

Otherwise what the heck is your point? That we should all go out and buy k90's because they are the heaviest and produce the most power?

And since speed doesnt matter at all, perhaps I dont even have to swing my k90. I can just sort of block everything and hit incredible shots, more so then my 10oz racquet. (in reality they will both produce the same result, they wont do anything if you dont move them)

BreakPoint
05-11-2008, 08:07 PM
Ummm, ya. p=mv doesnt exactly help your argument either. (did they teach you what the v stands for in your Ivy League college??)

Now you are throwing brick walls into it. The material and it's ability to withstand force is a major factor here that does not apply to your argument.

Otherwise I might as well mention how if you throw a penny off of a tall building it could go right thru someone's skull.

Nobody is debating that if you swing two racquets at the same speed, the heavier one will hit the ball somewhat further.

But the common sense observation is that not eveyone can swing the heavier racquet at the same speed, and anyone who's went out and gotten the k90 but doesnt have good form experiences what NBM mentioned, the ball isnt going to go anywhere.

So the point is that you go find the racquet with the most mass that you can handle.

Otherwise what the heck is your point? That we should all go out and buy k90's because they are the heaviest and produce the most power?

And since speed doesnt matter at all, perhaps I dont even have to swing my k90. I can just sort of block everything and hit incredible shots, more so then my 10oz racquet. (in reality they will both produce the same result, they wont do anything if you dont move them)
Huh? I'm guessing you have no idea what "v" means. :(

This is a thread about plow through. I have no idea why you are talking about "force", "acceleration", and how "far" you can hit the ball. :confused:

A heavier racquet will plow through the ball better than a lighter racquet will, all else being equal. End of story.

You still haven't answered why lighter racquets tend to be stiffer, have wider beams, and are more inherently powerful than most heavier racquets if all one needs to do is to swing the lighter racquet faster to generate the same power as the heavier racquet.

There is no substitute for weight. That's why they classify boxers by weight classes and not by how fast they can swing their arms. A heavyweight boxer swinging slower will pack more plow through in his punch than a featherweight boxer swinging his arm faster.

Anton
05-11-2008, 09:32 PM
Other people are talking about lighter racquets giving faster swings. I'm saying that even a lighter racquet will not allow you to swing the racquet fast enough to compensate for the lack of mass.

Yea but your argument for that being the case hinged on lighter=faster assumption

explain to us why most lighter racquets also tend to be stiffer? Could it be to compensate for the lack of mass?

Even without considering an answer, a question of "Could it be to compensate for the lack of speed?" would be no less likely, so you can see how it is not helpful to you right?




According to some people here, all you need to do is to swing the lighter racquet faster to compensate for the lack of mass. If that were the case, there would be no need to make lighter racquets also stiffer, with wider beams, and thus, more powerful.

Ahh but not everyone can swing that lighter racket faster ;)

If you give a junior player a 12+ oz stick their ball velocity will probably drop, but many stronger players, with less wrist dependandant technique will find more power there.



And, no, research on basic fundamental physics (mechanics) is not ongoing. Issac Newton already figured it all out over 300 years ago.

Heavy racquets can give you faster serves because the greater mass transfers more mometum to the ball, provided you can maintain your racquet head speed. The greater mass can also offset a slightly lower swing speed and still produce bigger serves. I can serve huge with heavy racquets like the PS 6.0 85 and the PS Tour 90. It's much harder for me to pound flat serves with lighter racquets even though I can swing them faster.

ROFL, here we go again - Didn't I just point out to you that the relationship between the racket weight and swing speed that can be generated is an illusive one and cannot be assumed??

You cannot rule out that the reason you cannot serve harder with lighter racket is because you are swinging them SLOWER.

Anton
05-11-2008, 09:37 PM
A heavier racquet will plow through the ball better than a lighter racquet will, all else being equal. End of story.

Which one would you say will plow through the ball better - 11oz 10 points head heavy racket or a 12 oz 10 points headlight racket?

BreakPoint
05-11-2008, 09:45 PM
Which one would you say will plow through the ball better - 11oz 10 points head heavy racket or a 12 oz 10 points headlight racket?
Well, those two racquets aren't exactly equal other than weight are they?

Agent Orynge
05-12-2008, 08:04 AM
Huh? I'm guessing you have no idea what "v" means. :(

This is a thread about plow through. I have no idea why you are talking about "force", "acceleration", and how "far" you can hit the ball. :confused:

A heavier racquet will plow through the ball better than a lighter racquet will, all else being equal. End of story.

You still haven't answered why lighter racquets tend to be stiffer, have wider beams, and are more inherently powerful than most heavier racquets if all one needs to do is to swing the lighter racquet faster to generate the same power as the heavier racquet.

There is no substitute for weight. That's why they classify boxers by weight classes and not by how fast they can swing their arms. A heavyweight boxer swinging slower will pack more plow through in his punch than a featherweight boxer swinging his arm faster.


Agreed. You really can't argue with physics, people.

The skill of the player swinging the racquet is immaterial to this debate. You can't say, for example, that a heavier racquet is less powerful because a certain player uses his wrist more. The laws of physics don't change in my hand, nor do they in yours. The player's inability to land the ball within the bounds of the court has everything to do with his lack of skill, and if he dumps the ball into the net because of poorly timed wrist movement then you're no longer making a valid comparison.

Anton
05-12-2008, 11:59 AM
Well, those two racquets aren't exactly equal other than weight are they?

ahh yes right you are.

kimbahpnam
05-12-2008, 12:13 PM
showing how to plow through - http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

BigT
06-02-2009, 11:07 AM
to the OP, I think previous posts miss the main point. True, plow through is a good, solid feeling of hitting the ball. But I think the result is what matters most with plow through: which is the ball plowing through the court. Off the same swing, on a racket with good plow through, the ball will land in the court and hit the fence before the second bounce, where on a racket with less plow through, the ball will bounce at least two or more times before hitting the fence. Agreed?

red7flag
06-02-2009, 06:04 PM
Plow Through is especially effective when hitting a very hard hit ball, sometimes called a heavy ball. You are able to hit it back with out a lot of vibrations. The negative is that to do that requires a bit of weight, which can make the axe less manoeverable, especially at net when you need fast reactions. There is a trade off and it really depends on an individuals style. I tend to like a mixture of plow and moneuverabllity, but I tend to be an all courter.
Tony

Agent Orynge
06-11-2010, 12:41 PM
Searching through some of my old posts, and came across this gem of a thread. A good read for anyone interested.

goosala
06-11-2010, 10:24 PM
Plow through is when your woman says "Harder!" and you thrust with all yor might. Actually it means how well you hit through the ball with your racquet. All else being equall the heavier weight usually means the easier you will hit through the ball.

happycamperjack
06-12-2010, 10:25 AM
Plow through is directly correlated with the control with your shots when receiving a heavy ball from your opponent. A better plow racket for example will allow you to return a fast serve or heavy top spin shots with good amount of control. To do that, the racket needs to be heavy and have consistant flex and other characteristics to ensure consistant returns

Donny0627
06-12-2010, 03:32 PM
i think of it as mostly swingweight.


i.e.: once you send the racket in motion the weight pulls it through the ball...


just my 2c...

tt2003
11-11-2010, 12:47 AM
who has plow through forehand?

Steffi Graff, Sampras, Roger has plow through forehand.

who does not have plow through forehand?

Michael Chang does not have plow through forehand

Am I right?