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TB45
05-04-2008, 07:44 AM
after looking through many close up pics, i concluded that most pros hit with a western forehand. However, some of my friends say that most pros hit with semi-western forehands. Can I get some help here?

-what pros hit with a western?
-what pros hit with a semi-western? (my friends say Roddick)
-based on your facts/beliefs, what do you think is more popular in the pro game?

thanks alot!

JonoTheMuffinMan
05-04-2008, 08:17 AM
Many pro's hit with the western and other derivatives of it to get more topspin. It's so much more popular now since the racquet technology basically changed the game from hitting flat from a closed stance to hitting more topspin from an open stance. Also, the western grip is more favorable to use on clay, since heavy topspin balls bounce higher on it.

JonoTheMuffinMan
05-04-2008, 08:22 AM
Ack. Didn't read the op thoroughly. The semi-western grip, I feel, is the most commonly used grip in the game. Its not as extreme as the western grip. To some, holding the western grip is unnatural (as with I), and can barely hit with it. On the other hand, the semi-western grip is just perfect for hitting balls with and still getting good spin.

Vision84
05-04-2008, 08:26 AM
Semi-western grip is the answer.

hoosierbr
05-04-2008, 11:50 AM
I'd imagine the more all surface players hit with a semi-western. A western forehand can be tricky on the quicker surfaces like the US Open and indoors with the ball coming at you pretty quick and having to make grip changes. Tough at Wimbledon too because the ball stays lower although not as tough as it was before the new grass was planted around 2002, hence the success of Nadal.

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 12:07 PM
I'd imagine the more all surface players hit with a semi-western. A western forehand can be tricky on the quicker surfaces like the US Open and indoors with the ball coming at you pretty quick and having to make grip changes. Tough at Wimbledon too because the ball stays lower although not as tough as it was before the new grass was planted around 2002, hence the success of Nadal.


Nadal's success comes from a technical aspect of his forehand. His forehand grip is extreme true, but the straight arm technique that he utilizes and extreme wrist release that he has creates an extremely big striking range, hence why lower balls are not as effective if it's not on an ultra fast surface.

Nadal_Freak
05-04-2008, 12:10 PM
I'd imagine the more all surface players hit with a semi-western. A western forehand can be tricky on the quicker surfaces like the US Open and indoors with the ball coming at you pretty quick and having to make grip changes. Tough at Wimbledon too because the ball stays lower although not as tough as it was before the new grass was planted around 2002, hence the success of Nadal.
Semi-Western is not as good for clay though.

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 12:12 PM
With the slowing of surfaces, and technological advances, the western grip is slowly becoming more popular. Hewitt and Djokovic are examples of players who have their best results on fast surfaces with a western grip.

laurie
05-04-2008, 12:13 PM
I'd imagine the more all surface players hit with a semi-western. A western forehand can be tricky on the quicker surfaces like the US Open and indoors with the ball coming at you pretty quick and having to make grip changes. Tough at Wimbledon too because the ball stays lower although not as tough as it was before the new grass was planted around 2002, hence the success of Nadal.

I've said this before as well, but I'm fascinated that Mauresmo is such a great volleyer despite having that incredible western forehand grip - the grip changes she must perform to volley must be incredible and yet done so well on grass over the years, of course winning Wimbledon in 06 as well. Amelie herself said in December 2006 Ace magazine interview over here in Britain that she believed the western grip has hindered her somewhat but at the age of 27 (at the time of the interview) that it was too late to change. If she the chance again she would have plumped for semi western at most it seems.

And in the 1990s, Brenda Schultz, who was also a serve and volleyer and had the biggest serve, also had an incredible western grip on the forehand - due to the grip instead of hitting forehand half volleys off short balls, she would regularly hit forehand slices into the corners instead.

I don't know what you guys think but the western grip doesn't seem as common now as it was in the 1990s, I can think of Courier, Berasetegui, Schultz, Conchita Martinez, Sabatini (I think) among others. Can you guys think of any other players who have a full on western grip now?

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 12:32 PM
I've said this before as well, but I'm fascinated that Mauresmo is such a great volleyer despite having that incredible western forehand grip - the grip changes she must perform to volley must be incredible and yet done so well on grass over the years, of course winning Wimbledon in 06 as well. Amelie herself said in December 2006 Ace magazine interview over here in Britain that she believed the western grip has hindered her somewhat but at the age of 27 (at the time of the interview) that it was too late to change. If she the chance again she would have plumped for semi western at most it seems.

And in the 1990s, Brenda Schultz, who was also a serve and volleyer and had the biggest serve, also had an incredible western grip on the forehand - due to the grip instead of hitting forehand half volleys off short balls, she would regularly hit forehand slices into the corners instead.

I don't know what you guys think but the western grip doesn't seem as common now as it was in the 1990s, I can think of Courier, Berasetegui, Schultz, Conchita Martinez, Sabatini (I think) among others. Can you guys think of any other players who have a full on western grip now?




I would beg to differ, there are MORE now. Moya, Nadal, Djokovic, Hewitt, Chela, Mirza, Henin, Mauresmo, Paul Henri Mathieu, Acaususo, Kuerten, Verdasco, Andreev, among many others. The western grip forehand has become a much more dominant grip due to the slowing of surfaces and changes in the technology of the game.

laurie
05-04-2008, 12:49 PM
I would beg to differ, there are MORE now. Moya, Nadal, Djokovic, Hewitt, Chela, Mirza, Henin, Mauresmo, Paul Henri Mathieu, Acaususo, Kuerten, Verdasco, Andreev, among many others. The western grip forehand has become a much more dominant grip due to the slowing of surfaces and changes in the technology of the game.

Perhaps so, Mirza has also stated that her western grip has caused her career threatening injuries, I would consider Kuerten and Moya cross the 1990s and Noughties divide.

Is Hewitt really western or semi western?

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 01:11 PM
Perhaps so, Mirza has also stated that her western grip has caused her career threatening injuries, I would consider Kuerten and Moya cross the 1990s and Noughties divide.

Is Hewitt really western or semi western?



Hewitt is a Western Grip for sure.

Bogie
05-04-2008, 01:25 PM
Hewitt is a Western Grip for sure.

no it isn't. he's in between semi and western, ala roddick. to answer the original question, the most popular grip on tour is in between semi and western which is used by 23 of the current top 50 (roddick, ferrer, almagro, acasuso, moya, ferrero, nalbandian, canas, tursunov, etc.)

14 of the top 50 use semi western (nadal switched not too long ago, youzhny, baghdatis, murray, tipsarevic, gonzalez, etc.)

only 5 of the top 50 use western grips (djokovic, andreev, kohlschreiber, chela, and mathieu)

5 use extreme easterns which is in between semi and eastern (fed, gasquet, davydenko, fish, and tsonga)

2 people use eastern grips: stepanek and llodra

and santoro rounds out the grip list with a double handed forehand/slice (he's pretty extreme on the rare occasion that he does hit over the forehand)

im positive about pretty much all of these. quote me.

TennisProdigy
05-04-2008, 01:34 PM
Since grips went from continental to eastern to semi western to a bit past semi western according to bogie whom i think is correct, not long untill the western grip becomes the most popular!

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 01:37 PM
no it isn't. he's in between semi and western, ala roddick. to answer the original question, the most popular grip on tour is in between semi and western which is used by 24 of the current top 50 (roddick, ferrer, almagro, acasuso, moya, ferrero, nalbandian, canas, tursunov, etc.)

14 of the top top use semi western (nadal switched not too long ago, youzhny, baghdatis, murray, tipsarevic, gonzalez, etc.)

only 5 of the top 50 use western grips (djokovic, andreev, kohlschreiber, chela, and mathieu)

4 use extreme easterns which is in between semi and eastern (fed, davydenko, fish, and tsonga)

2 people use eastern grips: stepanek and llodra

and santoro rounds out the grip list with a double handed forehand/slice (he's pretty extreme on the rare occasion that he does hit over the forehand)

im positive about pretty much all of these. quote me.



I'm going to have to disagree with you until you show some proof. Yendall's article puts Hewitt grip along side the likes of Nalbandian, Kuerton, Ferrero, etc. all who have pretty extreme grips. They are much closer to Western then Semi-Western. Roddick and Robredo are even more extreme. Nadal and Grosjean are both full Western by the definition. My definition of the Western grip is a little loose.



A true semi-western grip is more along the likes of Agassi, Blake, and Safin. The tour is slowly moving more towards the Western grip. I consider anything slightly more extreme 4/3.5 to be a Western grip. Hewitt has something like that.

Bogie
05-04-2008, 01:46 PM
My definition of the Western grip is a little loose.

you just defined your problem. go to gettyimages and look at djokovic's grip. that's a western. now go and look at all of the other people that you've mentioned and you'll see that although they are close to a western, very few(5 out of the top 50) use what is actually a western grip. also, i see you mentioned guga and he is one of those rare cases who used a very small grip and also he played without a replacement grip, just overgrips, so if it looks like he's leaning towards a western, its because the grip that he holds is so small that his hand is forced to overlap it. look some of them up on gettyimages. i've posted TONS of pics on this topic before and am pretty positive about everything that i've said.

Bogie
05-04-2008, 01:53 PM
true semi-western grip is more along the likes of Agassi, Blake, and Safin. The tour is slowly moving more towards the Western grip. I consider anything slightly more extreme 4/3.5 to be a Western grip. Hewitt has something like that.

agassi, blake, and safin all have different variations of a semi western, as slight as they may be. firstly, agassi is an extreme eastern ala fed. blake is a dead on semi western as is berdych and baghdatis. tsonga is one who gave me some problems on whether he is extreme eastern or dead-on semi but after looking into it, it seems as if he is on the extreme eastern side. safin, on the other hand is a bit of an off semi western as are murray, monaco, gonzalez, etc. it is also quite noticable in the way that they hit their shots. i have personally seen agassi, safin, and blake play and each one produces a different shot in terms of spin, follow through, and torque, all of which must be slightly different with different grips.

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 02:08 PM
agassi, blake, and safin all have different variations of a semi western, as slight as they may be. firstly, agassi is an extreme eastern ala fed. blake is a dead on semi western as is berdych and baghdatis. tsonga is one who gave me some problems on whether he is extreme eastern or dead-on semi but after looking into it, it seems as if he is on the extreme eastern side. safin, on the other hand is a bit of an off semi western as are murray, monaco, gonzalez, etc. it is also quite noticable in the way that they hit their shots. i have personally seen agassi, safin, and blake play and each one produces a different shot in terms of spin, follow through, and torque, all of which must be slightly different with different grips.


Blake, Safin, and Agassi are all categorized in the 4/3 category by John Yendall. I trust his research. My definition is a little loose on the Western grip, but then again, everyone's definition on what is which grip is different also. You are entitled to your own opinion, as am I. However, you can't really argue that the tour is moving towards the Western Grip now, or at least variations of it.


And no, Agassi is not an extreme eastern forehand grip. That would be 3/3.5 like Federer and Ancic, which Agassi does not use. The reasoning for the different terms of spins and follow through is that Agassi, Blake, and Safin all are different heights. However, they still play the same kind of game, which is to hit hard and flat. Safin is tall, so he can just flatten out the ball and not really care. Agassi is more of a classic follow through, usually going above his shoulder rather then wrapping the racquet around him like most players do today. Blake is shorter then Safin, so he must compensate naturally by putting a little more spin on the ball then Safin. All 3 of these players though, still have the same grip, as evidenced to how similar their games are.


Also, untill you show some evidence of research, you have nothing in this argument so far. Everyone has their own opinion on the "definition" of a grip, but you seem to think you can just brand players with a certain grip that they don't use.

Bogie
05-04-2008, 02:21 PM
Blake, Safin, and Agassi are all categorized in the 4/3 category by John Yendall. I trust his research. My definition is a little loose on the Western grip, but then again, everyone's definition on what is which grip is different also. You are entitled to your own opinion, as am I. However, you can't really argue that the tour is moving towards the Western Grip now, or at least variations of it.


And no, Agassi is not an extreme eastern forehand grip. That would be 3/3.5 like Federer and Ancic, which Agassi does not use. The reasoning for the different terms of spins and follow through is that Agassi, Blake, and Safin all are different heights. However, they still play the same kind of game, which is to hit hard and flat. Safin is tall, so he can just flatten out the ball and not really care. Agassi is more of a classic follow through, usually going above his shoulder rather then wrapping the racquet around him like most players do today. Blake is shorter then Safin, so he must compensate naturally by putting a little more spin on the ball then Safin. All 3 of these players though, still have the same grip, as evidenced to how similar their games are.

i don't know who john yendall is, and frankly i don't really care. of course you're entitled to your own opinion as am i. not trying to denounce that, just saying through my observations as well as studying what grips most of the pros use for quite a bit (yes, i have a lot of free time), i've been able to make some conclusions of my own. i trust what i've seen with my own eyes more than what someone else would tell me.

as i said earlier, from studying stills of his set-up, seeming him play in person, and the way that he hits the ball, agassi is using an extreme eastern. ancic isn't on the other hand, he is dead on semi in my book. also, all three players hit the ball so early that most of the time, height isn't playing a huge factor. safin may be hitting the ball several inches higher in his contact point but don't forget that his racquet head is 12 square inches smaller than agassi's which also players a factor. from watching both blake and safin play from the on-court seats at the sap open, i can positively assure you that blake doesn't hit with more spin than safin, and marat comes over the ball considerably more than james who hits through basically every shot, even when stretched out wide. agassi, when he lived in tiburon, would often play at the 2 clubs that i am a member of, tiburon peninsula club, and olympic club, and i have seen him play from maybe 15 feet away and he hits just as flat as james, but stays more grounded whereas blake twists much more with his body while andre can stay on the ground with his grip leaning slightly more towards eastern than james'.

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 02:47 PM
i don't know who john yendall is, and frankly i don't really care. of course you're entitled to your own opinion as am i. not trying to denounce that, just saying through my observations as well as studying what grips most of the pros use for quite a bit (yes, i have a lot of free time), i've been able to make some conclusions of my own. i trust what i've seen with my own eyes more than what someone else would tell me.

as i said earlier, from studying stills of his set-up, seeming him play in person, and the way that he hits the ball, agassi is using an extreme eastern. ancic isn't on the other hand, he is dead on semi in my book. also, all three players hit the ball so early that most of the time, height isn't playing a huge factor. safin may be hitting the ball several inches higher in his contact point but don't forget that his racquet head is 12 square inches smaller than agassi's which also players a factor. from watching both blake and safin play from the on-court seats at the sap open, i can positively assure you that blake doesn't hit with more spin than safin, and marat comes over the ball considerably more than james who hits through basically every shot, even when stretched out wide. agassi, when he lived in tiburon, would often play at the 2 clubs that i am a member of, tiburon peninsula club, and olympic club, and i have seen him play from maybe 15 feet away and he hits just as flat as james, but stays more grounded whereas blake twists much more with his body while andre can stay on the ground with his grip leaning slightly more towards eastern than james'.



John Yendall is an excellent tennis instructor/teacher of the game. He knows plenty of technical knowledge about the game. I'd much rather trust a study from a well known student of the game rather than someone on a tennis internet message board.


I'm sorry, you are wrong. Agassi uses a semi-western grip, 4/3, same as Blake and Safin. His follow through is what makes things different. Yendall's article on what grip professional players use shows this.


Blake hits a little more spin then Safin does, no way he can hit flatter and be more consistent then Safin. Safin puts very little spin, because he doesn't need to. Blake cannot do it, otherwise he'd net or hit everything out. Yendall also did a study on the amount of RPMs a player can hit. Players like Safin, Blake, and Agassi averaged below 2000.

Bogie
05-04-2008, 03:22 PM
John Yendall is an excellent tennis instructor/teacher of the game. He knows plenty of technical knowledge about the game. I'd much rather trust a study from a well known student of the game rather than someone on a tennis internet message board.


I'm sorry, you are wrong. Agassi uses a semi-western grip, 4/3, same as Blake and Safin. His follow through is what makes things different. Yendall's article on what grip professional players use shows this.


Blake hits a little more spin then Safin does, no way he can hit flatter and be more consistent then Safin. Safin puts very little spin, because he doesn't need to. Blake cannot do it, otherwise he'd net or hit everything out. Yendall also did a study on the amount of RPMs a player can hit. Players like Safin, Blake, and Agassi averaged below 2000.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/staff/bio/staff_bio.html

hahahaha, what a coincidence. i've worked numerous times with gc andreani. he's good friends with my coach and filmed me play several times and has done split-screen analysis with me compared to players such as agassi, kiefer, gonzalez, and verdasco. he travels to a lot of these big tournaments and films them himself. he's also the one who i learned some of the stuff that i've mentioned earlier so i would trust him more than anyone else. if he says agassi is extreme eastern, that coupled with watching agassi play up close......

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 05:01 PM
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/staff/bio/staff_bio.html

hahahaha, what a coincidence. i've worked numerous times with gc andreani. he's good friends with my coach and filmed me play several times and has done split-screen analysis with me compared to players such as agassi, kiefer, gonzalez, and verdasco. he travels to a lot of these big tournaments and films them himself. he's also the one who i learned some of the stuff that i've mentioned earlier so i would trust him more than anyone else. if he says agassi is extreme eastern, that coupled with watching agassi play up close......



Some people see different things. What you are seeing from Agassi is that he has a classic over the shoulder follow through, coupled with the fact that his racquet is perpendicular to the court before pulling towards the ball. Most players have it slightly angled or parallel, which creates more spin. Agassi still uses a semi-western grip, but because of his over the shoulder finish and his approach to the ball, that is why his ball is so flat, not because of his grip.


Who knows though, Agassi was a little funky and would experiment with alot of things. He used to change racquets constantly throughout his career, more then any other pro I've ever seen. I wouldn't be surprised if he messed around with slight grip changes.

TB45
05-04-2008, 05:02 PM
hahaha im getting alot of mixed answers...great job guys. I changed my grip from semi-western to a full western last summer, and it has helped out immensely. (and the only reason I did it was so that it looked like a pro's forehand, which it does now...:))

NamRanger
05-04-2008, 05:15 PM
hahaha im getting alot of mixed answers...great job guys. I changed my grip from semi-western to a full western last summer, and it has helped out immensely. (and the only reason I did it was so that it looked like a pro's forehand, which it does now...:))


Grips of professional players is always hard to identify. Alot of pros actually adjust their grip slightly according to the surface. Federer is a primary example where he actually does go closer to a semi-western grip during the clay season.

superstition
05-04-2008, 07:33 PM
With the slowing of surfaces, and technological changes, the western grip is slowly becoming more popular.
Fixed.

Everything has drawbacks.

superstition
05-04-2008, 07:35 PM
Mirza has also stated that her western grip has caused her career threatening injuries
As well as hard court play (knee).

NamRanger
05-05-2008, 08:20 AM
Fixed.

Everything has drawbacks.


Graphite Technology along with new types of strings are advancements in tennis. They allow the player to hit with greater power, spin, and control never seen before. No one before was able to produce the angles Federer is able to produce. Even Roddick hits shots that would be impossible in a wood era (off his forehand/backhand, not his serve)


Just because YOU think older technology is better, doesn't mean it is. so now what, because you say swords are better then guns, we should go back to swords? That's how ridiculous your assertions are. Swords offer a "prettier" and more "complete" form of warfare, guns are too easy. Does it sound familiar?

Klatu Verata Necktie
05-05-2008, 08:59 AM
People consistently bring up Sania Mirza when discussing the dangers of a western grip, but correlation doesn't mean causation. It is unknown if Mirza would have been injured while using a different grip. Isn't it possible that her injury didn't have anything to do with her grip?

laurie
05-05-2008, 10:13 AM
People consistently bring up Sania Mirza when discussing the dangers of a western grip, but correlation doesn't mean causation. It is unknown if Mirza would have been injured while using a different grip. Isn't it possible that her injury didn't have anything to do with her grip?

This is what Mirza said herself

http://www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080319/EVENTS10/803190344/1120/events10

Sania Mirza's extreme grip causing her pain after matches, wind
Leighton Ginn The Desert Sun March 19, 2008

INDIAN WELLS - After Sania Mirza's loss to Daniela Hantuchova in the fourth round of the Pacific Life Open on Tuesday, the Indian star said she may eventually have to make a tough decision - surgery or a change in the grip that has gotten her into the top-40 in the world.


Mirza, currently ranked No. 32, uses an extreme western grip when she plays, so when she plays in windy conditions, her wrist can become very sore.

"It's almost a chronic problem," Mirza said. "Either I change my grip, which I'm not going to do, or I probably have to get surgery or something."

Prior to Miami, Mirza plans to get an MRI as a precaution on the wrist.

Mirza uses the extreme western grip to produce a lot of topspin on her forehand, which is her biggest weapon. Because she uses so much wrist on the shot, it can take a toll on Mirza.

"It's very hard for me because I'm almost defying nature every time I hit a forehand because I'm going in a very weird way because I have a very extreme grip," Mirza said. "Usually it doesn't get this sore, so I'm a little worried right now. Usually, it gets sore and then it gets OK when I ice and do whatever I have to do."

After the match against Hantuchova, Mirza could not even push the buttons on a stationary bike. Mirza figures with all the wind she had to hit against during the week, it added to the strain on her wrist.

It was suggested that Mirza change her grip to avoid the potential problems.

"Easier said than done," the 21-year-old Mirza said. "I've been doing it for the last 16 years of my life.

"It's a big step to even change it half an inch because my game is my forehand. It's not easy to change a grip at the stage where you're like No. 30 in the world. But if I have to, I will, but that's not an option. I would obviously like to look at other options before that."

Vision84
05-05-2008, 10:27 AM
Since grips went from continental to eastern to semi western to a bit past semi western according to bogie whom i think is correct, not long untill the western grip becomes the most popular!

In the 2020s the Hawaiian will be standard.

Klatu Verata Necktie
05-05-2008, 11:54 AM
This is what Mirza said herself

I understand that Mirza herself thinks that her injury was caused by her grip, but how can she be so sure that she wouldn't have had problems using a different grip. It's just a hypothetical.

I'm a fan of Sania. I like her game as well as her sunny demeanor off the court.

superstition
05-05-2008, 01:48 PM
Graphite Technology along with new types of strings are advancements in tennis.
Graphite technology has drawbacks, just as it has benefits. As the racquets became more powerful, serve and volley (with lots of aces) became too good. Then, as the racquets got bigger, lighter, and stiffer yet (and surfaces slowed), baseline topspin became too good. Now the "ace and baseline" (with poly) form of tennis is too good, to the detriment of balance. In the wood era, baseliners could dominate and so could all-court and s/v players. The game was much more balanced. And, graphite racquets have led to a higher injury rate, particularly with stiff poly and concrete.

Laver said graphite made certain types of tennis (like topspin passing shots) too easy and so has Navratilova. She was the first pro to win a major with a 90 sq in graphite and she said the only reason she switched to a "big graphite racquet" was because tennis hadn't banned them. She thought they should be banned. That racquet is nothing compared to what's used today, and if she were a young player now, forget about her winning so many titles. She'd probably play like Mirza and end up with a ruined wrist and knees.


Even Roddick hits shots that would be impossible in a wood era (off his forehand/backhand, not his serve)
Hahaha. Yes, Andy Roddick is proof that tennis has evolved. Into a "23 aces in two sets" farce.

superstition
05-05-2008, 01:49 PM
I understand that Mirza herself thinks that her injury was caused by her grip, but how can she be so sure that she wouldn't have had problems using a different grip. It's just a hypothetical.

I'm a fan of Sania. I like her game as well as her sunny demeanor off the court.
The semi-western and western grips are being used now with extreme pace on hard courts with poly - a recipe for injury.

There is just no comparison with grass court tennis played with wood and gut when it comes to player safety.

superstition
05-05-2008, 01:55 PM
Graphite racquets can still be used with a balanced game. What needs to happen is the adoption of a maximum stiffness spec that is the same as pure wood. Then racquet heads still be large (which will keep topspin players happy). The slower ball will help s/v and all-court players and people will want to switch back to gut for more power.

HeadPrestige
05-05-2008, 02:13 PM
Graphite racquets can still be used with a balanced game. What needs to happen is the adoption of a maximum stiffness spec that is the same as pure wood. Then racquet heads still be large (which will keep topspin players happy). The slower ball will help s/v and all-court players and people will want to switch back to gut for more power.

you really need to start adding "I think" or "In my opinion" at the beginning of your posts. I hate to break it to you, but your opinion is not fact.

superstition
05-05-2008, 06:33 PM
you really need to start adding "I think" or "In my opinion" at the beginning of your posts. I hate to break it to you, but your opinion is not fact.
All facts are opinions supported by evidence. The better the evidence, the more faith one can place in the validity of the fact. Instead of quibbling over semantics, how about addressing the content?

Stchamps
05-05-2008, 07:05 PM
All facts are opinions supported by evidence. The better the evidence, the more faith one can place in the validity of the fact. Instead of quibbling over semantics, how about addressing the content?

and all of your opinions are subjective and used to try and recruit people to your go back in time cause. you should be a politician.

superstition
05-05-2008, 07:06 PM
and all of your opinions are subjective and used to try and recruit people to your go back in time cause. you should be a politician.
This is called ad hominem, or shoot the messenger. I think we should talk about western forehands.

ta11geese3
05-05-2008, 08:06 PM
you really need to start adding "I think" or "In my opinion" at the beginning of your posts. I hate to break it to you, but your opinion is not fact.

Where were you during high school english? You don't start anything with "I think" or "In my opinion" as that's completely redundant. Everything you say is already your opinion (what else would it be..?). You're out to prove a point- do you want to sound insecure while doing so?

HeadPrestige
05-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Where were you during high school english? You don't start anything with "I think" or "In my opinion" as that's completely redundant. Everything you say is already your opinion (what else would it be..?). You're out to prove a point- do you want to sound insecure while doing so?

You do not start anything with "i think" or "in my opinion" when writing for academic purposes, not in casual conversation.

flyer
05-05-2008, 08:42 PM
I would beg to differ, there are MORE now. Moya, Nadal, Djokovic, Hewitt, Chela, Mirza, Henin, Mauresmo, Paul Henri Mathieu, Acaususo, Kuerten, Verdasco, Andreev, among many others. The western grip forehand has become a much more dominant grip due to the slowing of surfaces and changes in the technology of the game.

mathieu looks like an extreme western to me

coloskier
05-06-2008, 12:00 PM
People consistently bring up Sania Mirza when discussing the dangers of a western grip, but correlation doesn't mean causation. It is unknown if Mirza would have been injured while using a different grip. Isn't it possible that her injury didn't have anything to do with her grip?

There are numerous women in the WTA that have had wrist injuries, Venus being one. In juniors wrist injuries are even more prevalent, all due to the western grip. And if you are asking, I coach a top ranked USTA junior girl and am always hearing about girls who have to sit out a few tournaments due to wrist tendonitis. Every one of them uses a western to severe western forehand grip.

NamRanger
05-06-2008, 12:06 PM
Graphite technology has drawbacks, just as it has benefits. As the racquets became more powerful, serve and volley (with lots of aces) became too good. Then, as the racquets got bigger, lighter, and stiffer yet (and surfaces slowed), baseline topspin became too good. Now the "ace and baseline" (with poly) form of tennis is too good, to the detriment of balance. In the wood era, baseliners could dominate and so could all-court and s/v players. The game was much more balanced. And, graphite racquets have led to a higher injury rate, particularly with stiff poly and concrete.

Laver said graphite made certain types of tennis (like topspin passing shots) too easy and so has Navratilova. She was the first pro to win a major with a 90 sq in graphite and she said the only reason she switched to a "big graphite racquet" was because tennis hadn't banned them. She thought they should be banned. That racquet is nothing compared to what's used today, and if she were a young player now, forget about her winning so many titles. She'd probably play like Mirza and end up with a ruined wrist and knees.



Hahaha. Yes, Andy Roddick is proof that tennis has evolved. Into a "23 aces in two sets" farce.


You are not accounting for the fact that the women's side of the game has no conditioning what so ever. Many of the women are injured because they are too lazy work out to prevent injury, thus causing these wrist injuries. Most of the time, women just go out and play and are not really in the best of shape.



You completely ignored my statement about Andy Roddick. He can hit shots that most pros before in the wood era would call impossible, off his FOREHAND AND BACKHAND. Not his serve. Andy Roddick is THE ONLY example you have, and the reason why he wins isn't just because of his serve. He has a solid baseline game that allows him to run over most lower ranked players. Otherwise, we'd see Karlovic and Isner dominating just like Roddick does.



You have no statistical facts to back up any of your assertions. All of your statements come from predominantly wood era players who just want to make themselves feel better because they played with wood.

superstition
05-06-2008, 12:10 PM
You are not accounting for the fact that the women's side of the game has no conditioning what so ever.
That's not the case for many players. Mary Pierce worked very hard. Henin has conditioned so much over the years that her immune system has had problems with viruses. Serena Williams' muscles didn't come out of thin air. There are some fat lower-level players, especially very young ones (Rolle, Paschek), but a lot of women in superb shape, shape that doesn't prevent injury.
He can hit shots that most pros before in the wood era would call impossible
Where's the slice forehand? There are shots that were part of the game with wood that are gone. Tilden's book talked about the application of side spins and other things. People could do a whole lot with wood. And, wood can be reinforced and made it midsize or larger.

TB45
05-07-2008, 05:39 PM
That's not the case for many players. Mary Pierce worked very hard. Henin has conditioned so much over the years that her immune system has had problems with viruses. Serena Williams' muscles didn't come out of thin air. There are some fat lower-level players, especially very young ones (Rolle, Paschek), but a lot of women in superb shape, shape that doesn't prevent injury.

Where's the slice forehand? There are shots that were part of the game with wood that are gone. Tilden's book talked about the application of side spins and other things. People could do a whole lot with wood. And, wood can be reinforced and made it midsize or larger.

thats what she said...or that's what he said...hahaha:)

Here's another question: Am i more prone to injury with my current western grip? It seems everyone agrees that people with western forehands are more prone to injury. I play high school tennis (6 days a week, around 2 hrs each day). thanks guys

superstition
05-07-2008, 06:09 PM
Am i more prone to injury with my current western grip? It seems everyone agrees that people with western forehands are more prone to injury. I play high school tennis (6 days a week, around 2 hrs each day). thanks guys
If you use a flexible racquet that's not too head heavy or light weight and soft string you'll be better off. Also, avoid heavy balls like Wilson Titanium and use regular duty Penn if you can.

PrinceMoron
12-20-2010, 08:48 AM
only 5 of the top 50 use western grips (djokovic, andreev, kohlschreiber, chela, and mathieu)

5 use extreme easterns which is in between semi and eastern (fed, gasquet, davydenko, fish, and tsonga)

2 people use eastern grips: stepanek and llodra




So that makes just 7 tennis players in the top 50 in my book. Sorry, but the rest is just ugly.

julian
12-20-2010, 09:07 AM
I've said this before as well, but I'm fascinated that Mauresmo is such a great volleyer despite having that incredible western forehand grip - the grip changes she must perform to volley must be incredible and yet done so well on grass over the years, of course winning Wimbledon in 06 as well. Amelie herself said in December 2006 Ace magazine interview over here in Britain that she believed the western grip has hindered her somewhat but at the age of 27 (at the time of the interview) that it was too late to change. If she the chance again she would have plumped for semi western at most it seems.

And in the 1990s, Brenda Schultz, who was also a serve and volleyer and had the biggest serve, also had an incredible western grip on the forehand - due to the grip instead of hitting forehand half volleys off short balls, she would regularly hit forehand slices into the corners instead.

I don't know what you guys think but the western grip doesn't seem as common now as it was in the 1990s, I can think of Courier, Berasetegui, Schultz, Conchita Martinez, Sabatini (I think) among others. Can you guys think of any other players who have a full on western grip now?

A correct spelling is Berasategui

JediMindTrick
12-20-2010, 09:39 AM
I'd imagine the more all surface players hit with a semi-western. A western forehand can be tricky on the quicker surfaces like the US Open and indoors with the ball coming at you pretty quick and having to make grip changes. Tough at Wimbledon too because the ball stays lower although not as tough as it was before the new grass was planted around 2002, hence the success of Nadal.

Nadal uses the SW grip.

Power Player
12-20-2010, 09:47 AM
Extreme western grip is a wrist killer. I am speaking from experience. I much prefer the semi western or extreme eastern.

JediMindTrick
12-20-2010, 10:03 AM
Let's take a look at the top players:

1. Nadal - SW
2. Federer - eastern
3. Djokovic - western
4. Murray - eastern
5. Soderling - SW
6. Berdych - eastern
7. Ferrer - western
8. Roddick - western
9. Verdasco - SW
10. Youzhny - ?

So we have 3 eastern, 3 SW and 3 western, pretty evenly matched.

World Beater
12-20-2010, 06:06 PM
grips are important...but what is more important is the angle with which the racquet makes with the ball.

Fate Archer
12-20-2010, 06:12 PM
Let's take a look at the top players:

1. Nadal - SW
2. Federer - eastern
3. Djokovic - western
4. Murray - eastern
5. Soderling - SW
6. Berdych - eastern
7. Ferrer - western
8. Roddick - western
9. Verdasco - SW
10. Youzhny - ?

So we have 3 eastern, 3 SW and 3 western, pretty evenly matched.

Berdych and Roddick use SW. Berdych is tricky in a way to figure out because he has a very flat, typical eastern swing path, but if you look at most pics you can see that he uses a SW grip, as far as I know.
Never stopped to notice Soderling or Murray though, but you may be right.

Funbun
12-20-2010, 06:17 PM
For correction, Murray uses a more SW grip now.

...or am I wrong?

mental midget
12-21-2010, 08:59 AM
Semi-Western is not as good for clay though.

don't tell nadal and borg.

JediMindTrick
12-21-2010, 11:37 AM
Berdych and Roddick use SW. Berdych is tricky in a way to figure out because he has a very flat, typical eastern swing path, but if you look at most pics you can see that he uses a SW grip, as far as I know.
Never stopped to notice Soderling or Murray though, but you may be right.

Berdych looks eastern-ish here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=198764

Fate Archer
12-21-2010, 04:33 PM
Berdych looks eastern-ish here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=198764

Yeah, sometimes his grip seems eastern-ish, but there are some good pics showing him using more of a SW grip too. These two pics show him using a more SW one to me.

http://rdatp.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/berdych-2.jpg

http://cdn.wn.com/ph/img/c3/60/0531d441276d5a880d6d1b532f11-grande.jpg

This last one is even better cause it shows his FH grip while he is preparing. In some pics, a player's FH grip may appear slightly more extreme because of the rotation of the handle on their hands after contact. It's definitely around extreme eastern to some mild case of SW. Or he could change grips more often than we think.

Sometimes the FH grip of some players are quite tricky to figure out, especially those with some kind of mix of a conservative and modern grip, like Roger and now Berdych.