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View Full Version : Tossing in the same spot


dangit
05-07-2008, 10:12 AM
Sampras and Federer was known for disguising their serves by using the same toss for different types of serve. So, is this true for this second serve as well? On this second serve, Federer uses the kick serve, but to hit a kick serve, you have to toss the ball behind you. so how does he do it without giving away that he's going to hit a kick? I've tried that too, but i can only get more kick out of the ball if i toss the ball behind me....

Cup8489
05-07-2008, 10:46 AM
Sampras and Federer was known for disguising their serves by using the same toss for different types of serve. So, is this true for this second serve as well? On this second serve, Federer uses the kick serve, but to hit a kick serve, you have to toss the ball behind you. so how does he do it without giving away that he's going to hit a kick? I've tried that too, but i can only get more kick out of the ball if i toss the ball behind me....

you have to toss the ball behind you to hit a kick? i have better results moving out to meet it..but that's me. i always use the same toss. 5 feet airborn, would land 1 meter in the court. i go up after it, and follow the serve in half the time.

adlis
06-19-2008, 05:03 AM
the kick should have the TOSS to the left.

watermantra
06-19-2008, 05:29 AM
Sampras and Federer was known for disguising their serves by using the same toss for different types of serve. So, is this true for this second serve as well? On this second serve, Federer uses the kick serve, but to hit a kick serve, you have to toss the ball behind you. so how does he do it without giving away that he's going to hit a kick? I've tried that too, but i can only get more kick out of the ball if i toss the ball behind me....

It's just one more thing that can give the pros an advantage. It's also one of those things that most pros can do, but very few players below 4.5 can.

I also don't think the disguise matters all that much at or below the 4.5 level. IF you have an effective kick serve, most 4.5s will have trouble with it whether they know it's coming or not. However, I have found this method of disguise to work: Try tossing in the same spot as your flat or slice serve, and simply let the ball drop a bit lower. If you can keep your shoulders from opening up, and learn to brush up the back of the ball (make sure you still extend fully even though you're catching the ball lower), then you can hit a pretty decent kick. Still, though, for those massive kicks out wide in the Ad court, I place my toss in the traditional place...which is directly over my head and slightly into the court.

For the second serve it's no secret that a topspin serve is coming, even at the pro level. However, my TOPSPIN serve is different from my KICK, or twist, serve. The kick serve is a first serve weapon that breaks to the left of the bounce from the perspective of the receiver (righty). The topspin serve simply has neutral topspin, or maybe a slight slice depending on placement in the service box (for instance, wide to the deuce court). I most definitely use a different toss on the second serve.

kwisatch
06-19-2008, 09:29 AM
The element of surprise is not whether the serve is flat or topspin (99% of 2nd serves are topspin on the tour).

The disguise they are talking about is the direction of the serve. Typically you toss to different locations depending on where you want the serve to land, but the pro's have mastered hitting different locations (down the T or in the corner wide) from the same toss location.

watermantra
06-19-2008, 10:39 AM
The element of surprise is not whether the serve is flat or topspin (99% of 2nd serves are topspin on the tour).

The disguise they are talking about is the direction of the serve. Typically you toss to different locations depending on where you want the serve to land, but the pro's have mastered hitting different locations (down the T or in the corner wide) from the same toss location.

I disagree. To hit a flat serve down the T or out wide most of us...I would wager even down to 3.5 players...toss in the same spot. This has to do with the angle of the racket face, not the position of the toss. Do you hit a forehand in a different "place" to hit down the line or cross court? You may "hold" the ball on the strings longer for a down the line shot, but most of us can flick a wrist and change the direction of the ball placement, while the contact point remains the same.

It's the same with the kicks or slices. Down the t, up the middle, or out wide the toss is placed the same. I place the toss depending on the type of serve being hit, not its placement. Every teaching pro I've encountered teaches service tosses this way, as well. Place for type, not for direction.

ivan987
06-19-2008, 12:21 PM
Pros toss in the same spot, but their body path is altered suiting the type of serve they want to produce (how could Safin jump almost a meter deep in court serving his second serve if he tossed the ball behind his back?)

Supernatural_Serve
06-19-2008, 12:32 PM
Every teaching pro I've encountered teaches service tosses this way, as well. Place for type, not for direction.True. I had the same instruction from many coaches.

But over time I evolved to 1 toss for all serves, placed in about the same place (flat - I'm out into the court more, a little), top spin (a little closer to me), slice (a little bit more away from me).

How I attack the ball is all that changes.

I'd rather lose a little top spin or kick than advertise the type of serve I am hitting. Also, with one toss, you improve consistency.

BLX
01-20-2010, 01:05 AM
a fast toss helps the element of surprise.

sureshs
01-20-2010, 08:14 AM
Pros toss in the same spot, but their body path is altered suiting the type of serve they want to produce (how could Safin jump almost a meter deep in court serving his second serve if he tossed the ball behind his back?)

I don't think so. Many have a distinctly different toss (more over their head) for second serves.

BLX
03-15-2010, 09:14 PM
I don't think so. Many have a distinctly different toss (more over their head) for second serves.

i agree. beginners need the arc to make the 2nd serve topspin more affective. Anyone below 4.0 should not toss in the same spot.

dirtballer
03-16-2010, 05:24 AM
I believe Federer does toss the ball to the left when he hits a kick serve but Federer can hit a slice with that same ball toss. Watch him when he serves to the ad court on his second serve. It may not be a true slice - it's more like a topspin slice right down the T. The opponent sees that left toss and immediately starts leaning for the wide kick and instead gets the T serve. Aggasi could do the same thing. I'm a recreational player and I can't do it. It takes a stronger wrist than I have.

adlis
08-12-2010, 09:03 PM
Will tossing more in front make "exploding" into the ball more natural? Will it improve consistency a lot too?

coloskier
08-12-2010, 09:23 PM
I believe Federer does toss the ball to the left when he hits a kick serve but Federer can hit a slice with that same ball toss. Watch him when he serves to the ad court on his second serve. It may not be a true slice - it's more like a topspin slice right down the T. The opponent sees that left toss and immediately starts leaning for the wide kick and instead gets the T serve. Aggasi could do the same thing. I'm a recreational player and I can't do it. It takes a stronger wrist than I have.

Surprisingly it is easier than you think. To get the slice down the T versus the kick out wide with the same toss over your head, all you do is follow through across your body versus down the same side of your body for the kicker. Watch Sampras (or Roddick), he was a master at this.