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View Full Version : better kick serve with 18x20 or 16x19


cnowak1
05-16-2008, 07:55 PM
big difference?

Hatari!
05-16-2008, 08:19 PM
With all other things being equal, you will get more spin with the 16x19 string pattern.

Kirko
05-16-2008, 08:21 PM
big difference?

no difference. you either can hit a "kick serve or not.. racket makes no difference.

HeadPrestige
05-16-2008, 08:22 PM
no difference. you ether can hi a "kick serve or not.. racket makes no difference.

string pattern does make a difference. While level of play is mostly determined by the player... someone serving with a prestige mp vs prestige pro will get more kick with the pro.

Kirko
05-16-2008, 08:30 PM
string pattern does make a difference. While level of play is mostly determined by the player... someone serving with a prestige mp vs prestige pro will get more kick with the pro.

not in my life time. how come guys could put such wicked spin on a serve with a regular wood racket & with a graphite above average size hitting area same serve; no difference at all. I don't believe it.

HeadPrestige
05-16-2008, 08:32 PM
not in my life time. how come guys could put such wicked spin on a serve with a regular wood racket & with a graphite above average size hitting area same serve; no difference at all. I don't believe it.

i never said people can't hit great spin with closed string pattern. Give that person an open string patterned racket though and spin will be easier to generate.

It is not a matter of opinion... it is fact.

Pro_Tour_630
05-16-2008, 08:32 PM
depends on your level,

HeadPrestige
05-16-2008, 08:34 PM
depends on your level,

completely agree... it is the player that determines the ability to hit spin... but that being said a great player would still have an easier time generating spin with an open string pattern (assuming same string set up) than without.

hrstrat57
05-16-2008, 08:41 PM
big difference?

The more open pattern will generally produce more spin and bite....of course you need strong kicking action via sound technique to begin with.

The biggest spin I achieved BTW was when I was playing POG mid, which is extremely open pattern.

Recently I have been experimenting with Prince Equipe mp 16x19 vs my current i prestige 18x20. The serves with the Prince are, as expected kicking higher. The slice serve is spinning more and is easier to control and place.

vndesu
05-16-2008, 08:44 PM
i can do kick with 18x20
but i prefer 16x19

ag kick doesnt have much spin compared to my k90 or n90

Gmedlo
05-16-2008, 09:07 PM
It is not a matter of opinion... it is fact.

I agree with you, but has it really been proven that more open patterns have greater spin potential? All that I've ever seen is anecdotal evidence, perhaps it's all psychological?

AlpineCadet
05-16-2008, 09:12 PM
not in my life time. how come guys could put such wicked spin on a serve with a regular wood racket & with a graphite above average size hitting area same serve; no difference at all. I don't believe it.

An open pattern gives you more power, while the denser string pattern will give you a smaller sweet spot and a stiffer feel (also less power.) It's subjective, we'll leave it at that. Also, wood rackets have more flex than most modern frames.

matchmaker
05-17-2008, 09:14 AM
I would say it mainly depends on technique. There are 18x20 racquest that produce tons of spin, especially the more flexible ones.

Satch
05-17-2008, 10:09 AM
big difference?

Djokovic have one of the best kick serve with 18x20...

EricW
05-17-2008, 11:00 AM
"It depends on your technique" and "____ has a great kick serve with 18x20" are worthless answers. The only one that matters to the question is this one:

All else being equal, 16x19 will yield more spin.

matchmaker
05-17-2008, 11:11 AM
"It depends on your technique" and "____ has a great kick serve with 18x20" are worthless answers. The only one that matters to the question is this one:

All else being equal, 16x19 will yield more spin.

This is as worthless an answer as the ones you mention. There are 18X20 frames producing more spin than 16x19. Another thing is that 16x19 or even 16x18 is not the same thing on every frame. Between a Pro Staff 6.0 and a 100 s.i. frame with the same string pattern there is a huge difference.

And yes with such a dense string pattern Pete Sampras had the best kick serve in the world. And yes Guga Kuerten had a terrible kick serve with a bigger headsize yet even denser pattern. Your arguments are nothing but fallacies.

rabidcow
05-17-2008, 11:17 AM
^^^ All else being equal (this includes head size) a 16x19 will generate more spin than a 18x20

tennis_vet
05-17-2008, 11:22 AM
Spin is increased only by altering the racket path, speed and angle not by changing the string pattern. Those who get great spin are undoubtedly able to achieve great racket speed more than anything. There is a great book out there called "Technical Tennis" and it is really quite good. It addresses so many of the misconceptions about rackets, serves,strings,and spin etc.

EricW
05-17-2008, 11:47 AM
16x19 produces more spin than 18x20 all else equal(this includes head-size). It is not an opinion, it is fact. Anyone who says differently shouldn't voice their opinions until they've gotten to a respectable level.

This is as worthless an answer as the ones you mention. There are 18X20 frames producing more spin than 16x19. Another thing is that 16x19 or even 16x18 is not the same thing on every frame. Between a Pro Staff 6.0 and a 100 s.i. frame with the same string pattern there is a huge difference.

And yes with such a dense string pattern Pete Sampras had the best kick serve in the world. And yes Guga Kuerten had a terrible kick serve with a bigger headsize yet even denser pattern. Your arguments are nothing but fallacies.

No sh*t there are 18x20 racquets producing more spin than 16x19.. perhaps from a combination of a more flex and a larger head-size. But, I said all else being equal, this includes all specs, and the player wielding the racquets. When someone asks a question regarding how a spec affects performance, they mean with all else being equal. How do you assess how a variable affects performance without isolating it?

KOtennis
05-17-2008, 12:56 PM
totally agree with EricW

HeadPrestige
05-17-2008, 04:36 PM
16x19 produces more spin than 18x20 all else equal(this includes head-size). It is not an opinion, it is fact. Anyone who says differently shouldn't voice their opinions until they've gotten to a respectable level.



No sh*t there are 18x20 racquets producing more spin than 16x19.. perhaps from a combination of a more flex and a larger head-size. But, I said all else being equal, this includes all specs, and the player wielding the racquets. When someone asks a question regarding how a spec affects performance, they mean with all else being equal. How do you assess how a variable affects performance without isolating it?

perfect post. nice job

matchmaker
05-17-2008, 06:40 PM
16x19 produces more spin than 18x20 all else equal(this includes head-size). It is not an opinion, it is fact. Anyone who says differently shouldn't voice their opinions until they've gotten to a respectable level.



No sh*t there are 18x20 racquets producing more spin than 16x19.. perhaps from a combination of a more flex and a larger head-size. But, I said all else being equal, this includes all specs, and the player wielding the racquets. When someone asks a question regarding how a spec affects performance, they mean with all else being equal. How do you assess how a variable affects performance without isolating it?

Well, your theory is interesting and I do agree with the part of all else being equal the 16 X 19 should give more spin but then again no two equal racquets come with 2 different options for string pattern except for the Yonex RDX 500 MP where there was a choice between 16X18 or 18X20 (High Density).

So saying all else equal is just a useless rule of thumb. No two racquets are equal. And even if they appear to be similar there must be little differences that make the flex and rebound sightly dissimilar.

I have a Redondo MP 18X20 and a Donnay 16X18; both are very flexible: 57 and 58 RA respectively; have the same headsize (although the Redondo is supposedly 98 s.i. and the Donnay 95 s.i.) and I am sure the Redondo doesn't kick any less than the Donnay, which BTW is already a nice kicker.

matchmaker
05-17-2008, 06:50 PM
16x19 produces more spin than 18x20 all else equal(this includes head-size). It is not an opinion, it is fact. Anyone who says differently shouldn't voice their opinions until they've gotten to a respectable level.


So you know for a fact that you have a respectable level and I don't. Well then, why are there pros that use 18X20 if it is so much worse... I would say someone who needs to have a 16X19 to hit a decent kick serve could not have a respectable level as you phrase it.

You perform an ad hominem attack to divert the attention from the real issue.

This is a forum to discuss a number of issues about tennis. String pattern is a hotly debated topic and people like you who try to silence others with nothing but dogmas and fallacies about so called scientific facts that have never been proven should rather abstain.

HeadPrestige
05-17-2008, 07:58 PM
So you know for a fact that you have a respectable level and I don't. Well then, why are there pros that use 18X20 if it is so much worse... I would say someone who needs to have a 16X19 to hit a decent kick serve could not have a respectable level as you phrase it.

You perform an ad hominem attack to divert the attention from the real issue.

This is a forum to discuss a number of issues about tennis. String pattern is a hotly debated topic and people like you who try to silence others with nothing but dogmas and fallacies about so called scientific facts that have never been proven should rather abstain.

No one is saying that an open string pattern is better than a dense string pattern or that a great kick serve cannot be generated with a dense pattern. We are simply answering the question of whether string pattern can aid acess to spin. When all things are the same.. as the above poster mentioned-- spin will be easier to access with an open pattern. This is not about superiority, simply answering the OPs question.

tennis_vet
05-17-2008, 08:24 PM
All things being equal - the string set-up still does not matter. What we are talking about with spin is the effect of friction. A more open pattern means that the force on the ball is lower and so to slow the ball's speed and reverse its direction the force must act for a longer time. With a tighter pattern you have a higher level of friction acting for a shorter period of time. Laboratory tests have conclusively shown that in the end the same amount of spin is produced.

robby c
05-17-2008, 08:41 PM
For me the biggest difference between 18x20 and 16x19 is the string gauge. I use 17 ga in 18x20, and 16 ga in 16x19. I get about the same power and string-life. Kick serve is just as good with either.
My groundstroke power is more affected than my serving. I played 16x19 oversize for alot of years before switching to 18x19 midplus. I value control, and arm friendly response above all else.
Demo until you are sure of your final choice. Good luck.
Robby C

HeadPrestige
05-17-2008, 09:21 PM
All things being equal - the string set-up still does not matter. What we are talking about with spin is the effect of friction. A more open pattern means that the force on the ball is lower and so to slow the ball's speed and reverse its direction the force must act for a longer time. With a tighter pattern you have a higher level of friction acting for a shorter period of time. Laboratory tests have conclusively shown that in the end the same amount of spin is produced.

go pick up a microgel prestige MP and a microgel prestige pro.. strung with the same string and tension and tell me it is not easier to generate spin with the pro.

[K]Topspin
05-17-2008, 10:25 PM
Not too ibg of a difference. But it is a lot better with the more open pattern.

tennis_vet
05-18-2008, 06:54 AM
go pick up a microgel prestige MP and a microgel prestige pro.. strung with the same string and tension and tell me it is not easier to generate spin with the pro.

I spoke only to string pattern and not racket characteristics which can affect how you swing the racket. Probably what is happening with the Pro is that the swingweight is lower than the MP affording you the opportunity to swing faster. As I mentioned earlier, speed and angle are the determining factors. Why does Djokovic get such a nasty spin on his serve with a 18x20 string pattern?

Bottle Rocket
05-18-2008, 08:14 AM
16x19 produces more spin than 18x20 all else equal(this includes head-size). It is not an opinion, it is fact. Anyone who says differently shouldn't voice their opinions until they've gotten to a respectable level.


It is fact? Is that right? Everyone replies to these threads with that same claim, yet nobody has ever presented any evidence. I've asked repeatedly.

Apparently, it is a fact because you are at a respectable level and others are not? Is that all you've got?

I would love to see your facts.

matchmaker
05-18-2008, 10:35 AM
It is fact? Is that right? Everyone replies to these threads with that same claim, yet nobody has ever presented any evidence. I've asked repeatedly.

Apparently, it is a fact because you are at a respectable level and others are not? Is that all you've got?

I would love to see your facts.

Well said. Me too, I have enough of people answering interesting questions with shallow and dogmatic answers. Where is the proof of this? And then they caress there narcissism by saying they are at a respectable level and others not.

I am not saying that dense string patterns produce more spin than open ones but I think a more profound discussion on this topic would be welcome.

Open string patterns deflect more on impact, thus creating a little bit more dwell time, which could lead to more spin as the contact with the strings would be prolonged. However the ball is less flattened against the strings and tends to roll of it in a way.

Dense string patterns are stiffer per definition (they have 3 or 4 strings more) so they deflect less and rebound the ball quicker. But the ball may be more flattened against the strings and combined with an upward racquet head movement this may make the ball rebound with many RPMs.

Just an idea. I do not claim to possess the truth. The issue could also be linked to technique: someone with a big amplitude in the upward movement may benefit from an open pattern. Someone with a short but intense brush up of the ball may find a dense string pattern to work better for him.

Ultra2HolyGrail
05-18-2008, 02:32 PM
I dont underestimate 18x20 patterns on kick serves. I wouldn't argue you might get better kickers compared to a 16x9. But groundstrokes and can opener serves i believe 16x9 is best for spin. Also whatever nadals pattern is :)

yasson
05-18-2008, 03:32 PM
it depends on your level and the strings you use

matchmaker
05-18-2008, 03:40 PM
All things being equal - the string set-up still does not matter. What we are talking about with spin is the effect of friction. A more open pattern means that the force on the ball is lower and so to slow the ball's speed and reverse its direction the force must act for a longer time. With a tighter pattern you have a higher level of friction acting for a shorter period of time. Laboratory tests have conclusively shown that in the end the same amount of spin is produced.

I just read your post and wow, this is interesting. In fact I wrote a post saying almost the same without having read yours. An open pattern thus will create spin through more amplitude in the upward movement whereas a closed one will impact for a shorter but more intense rebound on the ball.

It is great that someone comes up with scientific evidence. Other posters typically apply the bandwagon fallacy: "Open string patterns produce more spin, it is a fact, everybody would agree with it."

matchmaker
05-18-2008, 03:47 PM
I spoke only to string pattern and not racket characteristics which can affect how you swing the racket. Probably what is happening with the Pro is that the swingweight is lower than the MP affording you the opportunity to swing faster. As I mentioned earlier, speed and angle are the determining factors. Why does Djokovic get such a nasty spin on his serve with a 18x20 string pattern?

Your supposition is right. I have just looked it up and there are 4 points in swingweight less for the pro.

Don S
05-18-2008, 04:11 PM
So just out of curiousity guys, does an open string pattern produce a noticably higher amount of spin? I mean would the average player with "All things being equal" get a noticably higher kick from a 16x18? I can understand how maybe you can impart more spin with an open pattern but is it a significant amount?

pmerk34
05-18-2008, 04:39 PM
go pick up a microgel prestige MP and a microgel prestige pro.. strung with the same string and tension and tell me it is not easier to generate spin with the pro.

I play both and pro is easier to generate spin with.

pmerk34
05-18-2008, 04:41 PM
I spoke only to string pattern and not racket characteristics which can affect how you swing the racket. Probably what is happening with the Pro is that the swingweight is lower than the MP affording you the opportunity to swing faster. As I mentioned earlier, speed and angle are the determining factors. Why does Djokovic get such a nasty spin on his serve with a 18x20 string pattern?


Why does Djokovic move like a deer? Why does Djokovic blast forehands up line for winners with ease? He's a nasty player period.

PandaKuo777
05-18-2008, 04:44 PM
Racket makes no difference, are you a beginner or are you simply just stupid. Equipment in tennis make all the difference. Why do you think pros pay racket specialist to travel with them and make sure that their gear is accurate to what they feel comfortable with. Whatever the case, 16 x 19 will give you more spin.

Whatsavolley?
05-18-2008, 04:48 PM
All things being equal - the string set-up still does not matter. What we are talking about with spin is the effect of friction. A more open pattern means that the force on the ball is lower and so to slow the ball's speed and reverse its direction the force must act for a longer time. With a tighter pattern you have a higher level of friction acting for a shorter period of time. Laboratory tests have conclusively shown that in the end the same amount of spin is produced.

Unfortunately lab testing is conducted on stationary rackets usually clamped in place with the ball being projected at it at various angles. In this situation you are correct, however spin generation when serving is different because you have a 'collision force' ie racket is moving. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, a 16 x 19 will create higher levels of deformation within the ball (strings biting the ball if you will) and the strings themselves will deform to a higher degree with the lower density pattern. Thus increasing dwell time and the ability to impart spin.

Djoko is irrelevant because his string set-up etc will change the amount of string deformation and his potential to impart spin.

pmerk34
05-18-2008, 04:52 PM
I would say it mainly depends on technique. There are 18x20 racquest that produce tons of spin, especially the more flexible ones.

Well you're going to use the same technique no matter what what frame you pick up I would assume.

pmerk34
05-18-2008, 04:55 PM
This is as worthless an answer as the ones you mention. There are 18X20 frames producing more spin than 16x19. Another thing is that 16x19 or even 16x18 is not the same thing on every frame. Between a Pro Staff 6.0 and a 100 s.i. frame with the same string pattern there is a huge difference.

And yes with such a dense string pattern Pete Sampras had the best kick serve in the world. And yes Guga Kuerten had a terrible kick serve with a bigger headsize yet even denser pattern. Your arguments are nothing but fallacies.

Pete Sampras might be the best player who ever lived. 16 x 19 produces morespin all else being equal.