Federer's Forehand Grip

[DoubleHanded&LovinIt]

There's been a lively discussion going on in the General Pro Player Discussion forum. I want to bring it here to the technical freaks in the Tips/Insruction forum. The question is, does Federer use the Eastern forehand grip? I say yes. His grip seems to be almost exactly that of one of his heroes, Sampras. Check out the General Pro Player Discussion Forum and see the Federer's Forehand thread to check out pictures and other opinions on the matter (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=37879). Bungalo Bill and Mahboob Khan, you're opinions are critically needed. Newest pic of Federer hitting a forehand (from Day 3 of Kooyong Classic, versus Tim Henman: http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51961157.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DEA53A95B58FB16D35DB46A794E630 2DBA3E87754A309B50B9)

[Mahboob Khan]

Through the clips provided I could not exactly locate the position of the base knuckle of the index finger. However, it appears that he uses a bit extreme version of Eastern Forehand grip. In Federer's case it is the 'educated use' of his wrist, and he does not hold the racket too upfront (the butt cap is in his palm). We had detailed discussion on his Forehand in some previous threads.

You may want to see his forehand sequencings at: www.procomparetennis.net. These sequencings are printable.

Bungalow Bill will tag behind to throw more light on this subject.

[Bungalo Bill]

Through the clips provided I could not exactly locate the position of the base knuckle of the index finger. However, it appears that he uses a bit extreme version of Eastern Forehand grip. In Federer's case it is the 'educated use' of his wrist, and he does not hold the racket too upfront (the butt cap is in his palm). We had detailed discussion on his Forehand in some previous threads.

You may want to see his forehand sequencings at: www.procomparetennis.net. These sequencings are printable.

Bungalow Bill will tag behind to throw more light on this subject.

I agree with Mahboob. From the excellent links Marcius (spelling???) provides, it looks like on the takeback with Federer he is in an Eastern grip. My guess is this is his waiting grip.

Once he takes back the racquet it is very hard to see the grip change on the takeback but it's there. There is a frame where his racquet is high and his hand is back near his shoulder that shows that he turned his racquet so that he could be in a SW grip. Also, his forward swing indicates SW as well.

It does not mean Federer doesnt hit some balls in the Eastern grip or as Mahboob indicated a strong Eastern - as many good players will alter the grip somewhat to the ball height or the effect they are trying to achieve. However, it appears his basic staple grip is SW.

I think this is already verified by many coaches.

[DoubleHanded&LovinIt]

This is not what John Yandell has been saying. Bungalo Bill, you know about all the terrific super slow motion video work Mr. Yandell has done with his Advanced Tennis Project, and he says that Federer uses an Eastern grip, almost identical to Sampras's grip, but he uses a more extreme swing pattern, closer to someone with a semi-western than someone with an Eastern grip.

[vin]

I want to bring it here to the technical freaks in the Tips/Insruction forum.

It's good to know we're respected. :D

[Bungalo Bill]

This is not what John Yandell has been saying. Bungalo Bill, you know about all the terrific super slow motion video work Mr. Yandell has done with his Advanced Tennis Project, and he says that Federer uses an Eastern grip, almost identical to Sampras's grip, but he uses a more extreme swing pattern, closer to someone with a semi-western than someone with an Eastern grip.

Well, Mr. Yandell certainly knows what he is talking about. If he knows for sure I would go with what he said. But on the video I saw, it looks very much like a strong eastern (as I said above) or a SW grip. The waiting grip is definetly an Eastern grip. But if you look closely you can see the racquet turn very slightly.

[Mahboob Khan]

Roger Federer is an enigma!

[JohnYandell]

Guys,

Since you guys are saying I know what I'm talking about, I'm feeling the pressure here...I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that the swing has so many extreme elements. The grip I think should still be called modern eastern. It's probably closest to Pete. I have modified my view on this slightly. The heel pad is behind the handle like Pete--center of center bevel--but partially off the handle. The index knucle is rotated down just slightly--maybe to the top edge of the next bevel down. It's in between Sampras and Agassi with Agassi being the least extreme SW inh modern game, but still closer to Pete!

[gregraven]

I think you have first to specify WHICH Federer forehand you're discussing. He seems to have at least three forehands for different occasions.

[Rickson]

I think you have first to specify WHICH Federer forehand you're discussing. He seems to have at least three forehands for different occasions.
Very true, greg. Federer doesn't just use one grip for his forehand and I still believe he uses the semi-western on most of his forehands.

[JohnYandell]

In my opinion you guys are confusing the type of shot or stroke with the grip structure. Now if you're saying he has more forehand variety than any player, possibly ever, I agree! But no top player has multiple fh grips--different grips for returns or slices sure, but if you look at his drives, heavily spun, and angled shots from all positions--center, wide, inside, running, short--(and I have)--the grip is the same. It's possible he may make small shifts in pressure points, but otherwise that's just not the way it works in high level tennis. The terminology may be at the root of the problem. There is no standard system, but it's definitely not the eastern of Don Budge or Jack Kramer--"v" on top. Today that should probably be called some version of a continental. Federer is clearly less extreme than Agassi, who has the mildest semi-western grip. And that's another problem--there are probably 3 versions of the semi-western. Agassi, Safin, and Roddick are all different, going from less to more extreme--and none of them are full western. Robredo probably comes closest there.
I'm not sure that straight arm hitting position that Roger uses would work with a grip any more extreme than he has. (No true semi-western player uses it.) And when you look at who else is similar to Roger there--the only answer is Philippoussis, another player with some version of a modern eastern grip.
If anything it all goes to show how complex the game is and how much significant variation there can be AND how hard it all is to really see well and figure out.

[finchy]

wow. nice explanation John Yandell.

it seems that there are plenty more to add to the vast universe of tennis analyzation. he uses an unconventional arm position on that forehand, yet it yields awesome results. i, right now, am experimenting with that swing motion and arm position and sometimes it feels great, but one thing to know is that every single little detail that makes a perfect forehand must be used and not one ignored. put your weight into the shot (fed does this by thrusting his body up & jumping, right?), keeping your head still through the shot (fed is probably the best at doing this), complete followthrough, and he accelerates greatly though the ball.

edit: actually, i have tried his swing motion with other grips including a true semi-western (really on the side bevel) and a true eastern grip (really on the top right bevel) and they actually both work quite well given that you have technically sound mechanics.

[jun]

There was a live chat with Todd Martin. I asked him about his forehand grip, and he said that he change grips depending on the shot.
To quote him, "there are shots that my grip is more close to eastern, and there are sthos that my grip is more close to western, but I use sw on most shots."

Anyays, his grip seems pretty close to Agassi's And Agassi seems to use not-so extreme sw.

[Ash_Smith]

For me, in the shots I have seen recently I would put Federer closer to semi-western than eastern, it's actually fairly similar to my own - a weak semi-western grip, although my forehand isn't quite as good as Feds, close, but not quite!!

[Bungalo Bill]

...although my forehand isn't quite as good as Feds, close, but not quite!!

LOL, geeez, I would say not even close!

[Mahboob Khan]

Through these discussions, we have learned about many forehands grips:

Eastern FH grip: Base knuckle of the index finger on panel number 3.

Extreme Eastern FH grip: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Modern Eastern FH grip: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Mild semi-western: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Weak semi-western: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Full semi-western: Base knuckle of the index finger is centered on panel number 4.

Extreme semi-western: Base knuckle of the index finger is on the crease between panel 4/5.

Full Western FH grip: Base knuckle of the index finger is centered on panel number 5 (the bottom panel).

Federer's Straight Arm? Just prior to start of the forward swing, Federer's wrist is bent back to an extent that it makes 90 degree angle with the fore-arm. Wrist-forearm form 90 degree angle. Because of this extreme wrist-bent-back it is not possible to keep the arm bent at elbow .. it has to be straight .. and it is relatively straight through contact .. by this time the force of the hit stablizes the wrist i.e. it is flexed but not bent-back any more the way it was!. Why? Because prior to contact it has fired forward to generate tremendous racket-head speed. In the follow-through phase his arm is bent (because his wrist is not bent).

[SystemicAnomaly]

...

Extreme Eastern FH grip: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Modern Eastern FH grip: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Mild semi-western: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

Weak semi-western: Base knuckle of the index finger on the crease between panel 3/4.

...

This is interesting. Is this 4 different grips or only 1 grip with 4 different names? Since the base knuckle was referenced in these descriptions but not the location of the palm, these could very well be different grips. My guess is that perhaps 2 different grips are represented by these 4 names.