Does the ranking system make juniors overplay? 100 match winners club

[HappyAndFriendlyAlways]

I came across this guys record
http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448385&p=468

Overall Record: 145 - 45

now thats 185 tournament matches in the last 12 months. Thats not even including any adult events he plays.

Is this crazy?? I think the USTA may be overplaying these kids

Here are all the 100 match winners, then I gave up looking.

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448385&p=1804

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448385&p=4156

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448385&p=3518

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448382&p=1683

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448382&p=100

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448382&p=2345

[binomialtheory]

That does seem a bit much, but he's playing some high tournaments which just happen to be consecutively after one another. Besides, it's Bangoura. He can do anything.

[Eastern Technifibre]

usta wants more people to play

[10isDad]

Remember they're now combined rankings so doubles is included. The other thing: Sekou gets pretty darned far in every tournament he plays. There's probably some other kids who've played lots more tournaments but you wouldn't know it because they lose much earlier in tourneys thus don't play as many events.

The scary part is how much the parents of these kids spend on tourneys - all over the country, plane costs, fuel costs, hotel costs, entry fees. These are likely some very wealthy kids (or some really in debt parents)...

[HappyAndFriendlyAlways]

i understand, but still seems quite over the top. back when i played jr's in the 80's nobody played even close to this much

[TennisCoachFLA]

I got that beat, how about a 10 year old girl who has played over 180 matches! Now that is insanity.

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=268128

[BradBaughman]

I got that beat, how about a 10 year old girl who has played over 180 matches! Now that is insanity.

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=268128

well at least she wont have to worry about burn-out!!

But what i want to know are where are all those concerned guys out there when you put a video up of your kid on youtube your out of control ,they are gonna consider this child abuse and the comments will be interesting to hear, cause even sweat shops in other countries pay they're kids for the sweaty labor!!

[OrangeOne]

How is 3 matches a weekend insanity? 150 matches in a year is only 3 a weekend...

[BradBaughman]

How is 3 matches a weekend insanity? 150 matches in a year is only 3 a weekend...

is that "EVERY" weekend in the year according to the math!! is there
a life or is it only tennis?

[HappyAndFriendlyAlways]

How is 3 matches a weekend insanity? 150 matches in a year is only 3 a weekend...


true, but its not like that. think about it, if any pro played that much, your almost guaranteed to have a career ending injury quickly.

[HappyAndFriendlyAlways]

this girl is dominating the 18s so well she might hold the record for most points over 5100!!

http://tennislink.usta.com/Tournaments/Rankings/PlayerRecords.aspx?id=448376&p=715

[OrangeOne]

is that "EVERY" weekend in the year according to the math!! is there
a life or is it only tennis?

It's an average, yup - and I think most juniors here would play about that much.

Thinking of it:

Most play in at least 2 comps a week (which run for 40 weeks of the year), and comps would count for at least a match each, so that's 80 matches.

Most play in maybe 10 - 20 tournaments a year - let's say they're good and average 4 matches in each - there's 60 matches.

Add in a few matches here and there and 150-200 doesn't seem out of the ballpark at all.

[HappyAndFriendlyAlways]

It's an average, yup - and I think most juniors here would play about that much.

Thinking of it:

Most play in at least 2 comps a week (which run for 40 weeks of the year), and comps would count for at least a match each, so that's 80 matches.

Most play in maybe 10 - 20 tournaments a year - let's say they're good and average 4 matches in each - there's 60 matches.

Add in a few matches here and there and 150-200 doesn't seem out of the ballpark at all.

2 comps a week? you mean 2 tourn a week? right. thats smart

[TennisCoachFLA]

It's an average, yup - and I think most juniors here would play about that much.

Thinking of it:

Most play in at least 2 comps a week (which run for 40 weeks of the year), and comps would count for at least a match each, so that's 80 matches.

Most play in maybe 10 - 20 tournaments a year - let's say they're good and average 4 matches in each - there's 60 matches.

Add in a few matches here and there and 150-200 doesn't seem out of the ballpark at all.

You don't know what you are talking about on this subject. A 10 year old girl should have a practice to match ratio of 4:1, 3:1 maybe. Ask Macci, Nick B., Evert, go down to the best tennis club in town and ask the pro. One tournament a month is all they should play. Sure as heck not one tournament a week.

180 matches for a 10 year old girl is utter, total insanity. Those 180 are only the sanctioned matches which make up her record....now add in practice time and practice matches which are where kids that age take chances and improve. Yes, it is insanity. A 10 year old girl's tendons, ligaments, joints are still developing.

[OrangeOne]

You don't know what you are talking about on this subject. A 10 year old girl should have a practice to match ratio of 4:1, 3:1 maybe. Ask Macci, Nick B., Evert, go down to the best tennis club in town and ask the pro. One tournament a month is all they should play. Sure as heck not one tournament a week.

180 matches for a 10 year old girl is utter, total insanity. Those 180 are only the sanctioned matches which make up her record....now add in practice time and practice matches which are where kids that age take chances and improve. Yes, it is insanity. A 10 year old girl's tendons, ligaments, joints are still developing.

a. Who said anything about a 10 year old girl? Wel, more to the point, I certainly didn't.

b. To be honest, I haven't even examined all of the links, other than to see the first kid is playing in the 15s/16s.

c. I said nothing about playing in one tournament a week, I just said it averaged out to 3 a weekend, and I then went on to explain my thinking. By a comp, I meant a competition, which is what we call 'league play' in my state of australia. Most keen 15 year olds I know play in 2 'leagues' a week - a singles and a doubles, which would add up to about 2 sets of singles and 4 sets of doubles, so I equated that to 2 matches a week. Add in the 10-20 tournaments they play (around 1 to 1.5 a month), and the math starts to add up.

d. I'm an accredited coach (in tennis as well as another sport) and have been a fitness trainer, I have a rough idea of what I'm talking about. Maybe try reading and understanding what I'm writing before telling me I don't know what I'm talking about?

[TennisCoachFLA]

a. Who said anything about a 10 year old girl? Wel, more to the point, I certainly didn't.

b. To be honest, I haven't even examined all of the links, other than to see the first kid is playing in the 15s/16s.

c. I said nothing about playing in one tournament a week, I just said it averaged out to 3 a weekend, and I then went on to explain my thinking. By a comp, I meant a competition, which is what we call 'league play' in my state of australia. Most keen 15 year olds I know play in 2 'leagues' a week - a singles and a doubles, which would add up to about 2 sets of singles and 4 sets of doubles, so I equated that to 2 matches a week. Add in the 10-20 tournaments they play (around 1 to 1.5 a month), and the math starts to add up.

d. I'm an accredited coach (in tennis as well as another sport) and have been a fitness trainer, I have a rough idea of what I'm talking about. Maybe try reading and understanding what I'm writing before telling me I don't know what I'm talking about?

This thread is about the USTA ranking system and the poster asked if that makes juniors overplay. Obviously, like I said, you have no idea what you are talking about on THIS subject.

Give me a break, you responded to a post that said, "Here is a 10 year old girl who played over 180 matches, that is insane". That was the only thing the post talking about insanity said, thus the only post you could have been responding to.

Your response was "How is that insanity. It is 3 matches a week".

The lamest people are the ones who don't admit they were wrong. You were dead wrong, deal with it and move on. Being an "accredited" coach is meaningless. The majority of trainers and coaches I have worked with are clueless.

Thats why I listen to Macci, Nick B., Lansdorp, John Evert, Dick Gould...attend seminars, listen, ask questions. Then you might realize that no kid under 16, should ever, ever play more than 1 tournament a month. Kids don't learn at tournaments, they learn at practice and in practice matches where different scenarios, such as playing from behind can be imitated.

Once again I will say it slowly...those 180 matches are only the sanctioned tournament matches that are included in her record. They are not "local leagues". They are full bore intense regional and national tournaments.

Australia or Mars....I think I will trust what the tennis coaches who have produced multiple champions say in regards to kids and the amount of matches they should play.

[gully]

I'm going to chime in here and say that this girl (my daughter has played with and against her) indeed plays a lot -- and always goes deep in her events (even playing 14s), and wins many, many matches very quickly and easily against quite accomplished players. She is playing national at 12s and 14s and a few local 18s.

She is at almost every sectional event my daughter plays and seems also seems completely energized and into it--never sulking or loafing, but always skipping, smiling, and hustling. (And kicking butt!)

My point isn't to defend the practice of 180+ matches a year as to note that the child's personality and temperament, along with their ability, all play factors in these decisions.

(For the record, my own daughter plays about 65 matches --about 16 events -- per year. I don't think I could afford more, and I don't think she'd benefit from playing more.)

[tenniscrazed]

is that "EVERY" weekend in the year according to the math!! is there
a life or is it only tennis?

By my math it is "every" weekend, and multiple rounds with no time off. There is a theory out there, I think it originated in Canada that playing tons of tournament matches is actually better than traditional methods of training. (Practice matches, drilling, live ball point play etc).

Personally I don't think there is any ONE answer I think the answer lies within the child and the parents. All factors being equal emotionally, physically, and financially, I say go for 300 matches a year if they can do it. Why not they become "tournament tough" at 10 - 15.

But how do you back that up the following year, and the year after that and so on, another 200 matches? That is the part that confuses me. And what happens when she / or he meets a "friend". Sorry I can't go to the movies because I have a match at 4 then again tomorrow etc etc etc.

To the poster who provided the information, thank you.

[OrangeOne]

This thread is about the USTA ranking system and the poster asked if that makes juniors overplay. Obviously, like I said, you have no idea what you are talking about on THIS subject.

Great discursive style there (again), really friendly. Sure, someone elsewhere could have no idea, just because they see a slightly different system. Of course, we'd have nothing similar here.

Give me a break, you responded to a post that said, "Here is a 10 year old girl who played over 180 matches, that is insane". That was the only thing the post talking about insanity said, thus the only post you could have been responding to.

Your response was "How is that insanity. It is 3 matches a week".

I read the thread. I responded to the thread. The Original Post uses the word CRAZY, the 10 year old post uses the word INSANITY, can you see a link there?.Obviously I picked up on the word insanity, but my reply was to the thread as a whole (note I didn't respond with 180 matches, but 150). Anyways, if my reply was specifically to the 10 year old post, I would have quoted it.

The lamest people are the ones who don't admit they were wrong. You were dead wrong, deal with it and move on. Being an "accredited" coach is meaningless.

The lamest people are the ones who, just because they don't agree with someone, insist that the other person therefore must be wrong.

Forget the word accredited if it offends you so. I coach, better? Now: I see I was talking about something that clearly you have set ideas about. Again, the only link I looked at was the first one in the first post, and for a 15/16 year old, and again I don't think it's too much. How do you know what else these kids play? They may play ONLY tournament matches and then train, no leagues, no anything, whereas the kids I see locally can't often afford to play only tournament matches, so they play many local leagues. If you think that somehow they put less effort into local leagues than tournament matches, well, that's your call, but you'd be wrong.

The majority of trainers and coaches I have worked with are clueless.

Arrogant / God complex much?

Thats why I listen to Macci, Nick B., Lansdorp, John Evert, Dick Gould...attend seminars, listen, ask questions. Then you might realize that no kid under 16, should ever, ever play more than 1 tournament a month. Kids don't learn at tournaments, they learn at practice and in practice matches where different scenarios, such as playing from behind can be imitated.

You're forgetting part of that paragraph, it reads something like:

"This advice depends, of course, on the kid's goals, the kid's individual situation and the parent's bank account."

One of the local kids I'm referring to has no goals of becoming Pro, he just enjoys his tennis, and wants to compete. And yet, he's a kid under 16. By your rules, he's therefore can't play more than one tournament a month. He has the same desire to compete as any other kid playing footy or cricket or basketball every week. Why should he only play a tournament a month?

Another comes from a poor family. Clearly Nick B's advice is based on the kid having access to elite coaching for 10-20 hours a week, yeah? This kid can't afford that, so he plays comps (leagues). He's playing 3 or 4 a week, and that's how he gets his court time, playing with 5.0s and 5.5s, who then teach him what they can and hit with him afterwards. Is it ideal? No. Is it how things are? yes. Does he play more than the equivalent of 3 matches a week on top of a tourny every month or so? Without question.


Once again I will say it slowly...those 180 matches are only the sanctioned tournament matches that are included in her record. They are not "local leagues". They are full bore intense regional and national tournaments.

I've responded to this above.

Australia or Mars....I think I will trust what the tennis coaches who have produced multiple champions say in regards to kids and the amount of matches they should play.

And I'm being realistic. Maybe your only focus is to produce champions, that's good for you. But given there is literally such a ridiculously miniscule chance of any kid becoming pro, then I'm saying that if they want to compete, let them. If the parents have the budget, let them. If the parents don't have the budget, let them. There have been too many kids processed perfectly through the 'systems' who never get anywhere, and who look back on the life they've lost.

By the way: If your red missive was so perfect, I assume that every single currently playing pro never played more that one tournament a month at 14 or 15? Why do I find that somewhat doubtful to believe. NickB doesn't care how much of a kid's life he takes, he just cares about how he can hit a ball. He doesn't care how little he develops a kid, he cares how he develops the kid's forehand.

At least the kids I see locally are playing and enjoying their tennis.

[BradBaughman]

By my math it is "every" weekend, and multiple rounds with no time off. There is a theory out there, I think it originated in Canada that playing tons of tournament matches is actually better than traditional methods of training. (Practice matches, drilling, live ball point play etc).

Personally I don't think there is any ONE answer I think the answer lies within the child and the parents. All factors being equal emotionally, physically, and financially, I say go for 300 matches a year if they can do it. Why not they become "tournament tough" at 10 - 15.

But how do you back that up the following year, and the year after that and so on, another 200 matches? That is the part that confuses me. And what happens when she / or he meets a "friend". Sorry I can't go to the movies because I have a match at 4 then again tomorrow etc etc etc.

To the poster who provided the information, thank you.

Well i do believe its overkill for the young ones ,im thankful we stay to a thin schedule throughout the year, deit takes plenty of days off and his practises are pretty mediocor at best ,he has good results and im sure if we caught up to everybody else(lots of practise and tourny's) his results would be great will save the best of him for later !!!

[GRANITECHIEF]

Well i do believe its overkill for the young ones ,im thankful we stay to a thin schedule throughout the year, deit takes plenty of days off and his practises are pretty mediocor at best ,he has good results and im sure if we caught up to everybody else(lots of practise and tourny's) his results would be great will save the best of him for later !!!

Every weekend would be definite overkill. Once a month could be a little light or just right. There is no proven formula that would work with every kid. You gotta go with the flow and make adjustments on the fly to optimize the balance.

BTW, BB, how'd it go this morning? Never mind, saw the result. Slow start and almost got back into it at the end. Was the #1 guy moonballing?

[BradBaughman]

Every weekend would be definite overkill. Once a month could be a little light or just right. There is no proven formula that would work with every kid. You gotta go with the flow and make adjustments on the fly to optimize the balance.

BTW, BB, how'd it go this morning? Never mind, saw the result. Slow start and almost got back into it at the end. Was the #1 guy moonballing?

no he hits! deiton attacked a little to much in the tie break but yannicks serve was on in the tie-break,yannick played well

[TB45]

nelson vick (i think the 2nd link that was posted) won the Wisconsin State Tournament as an individual. I think he was the 1st freshman to ever do so. He also led his team (Marquette University High School) to the Wisconsin State Team Title. He and teammate Billy Bertha are the considerably the top 2 players in the state...and they go to the same high school.

[2ndserve642]

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?sessionid=0497E79A4CCF5AB7

is this ur son brad hes pretty amazing



ugh it aint workin but is he 9th in the nation

[xnarek]

I got that beat, how about a 10 year old girl who has played over 180 matches! Now that is insanity.

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=268128

Holy mother of a ********
so many wins, and less then 20 loses??
wtf ? O.o
1 word
no life :)

[Hatari!]

She has a life, and that life is called tennis.

[Danat]

by the way thats two words

[Lindsay]

You don't know what you are talking about on this subject. A 10 year old girl should have a practice to match ratio of 4:1, 3:1 maybe. Ask Macci, Nick B., Evert, go down to the best tennis club in town and ask the pro. One tournament a month is all they should play. Sure as heck not one tournament a week.

180 matches for a 10 year old girl is utter, total insanity. Those 180 are only the sanctioned matches which make up her record....now add in practice time and practice matches which are where kids that age take chances and improve. Yes, it is insanity. A 10 year old girl's tendons, ligaments, joints are still developing.

I agree that 180 matches is a lot. But asking the best pro in town how many tournaments a month to play isn't the answer. To make it professionally, you have to log more hours and more matches than anyone else(unless you're a Williams sister). That's more than your typical tennis pro will tell you, but Nick B. will agree, to make it big, you need matches. That's why you will see players battling it out on Nick's famous back courts.

Brooke Austin isn't your average 10 year old either. She's big, and biomechanically, the way she plays doesn't take a toll on her body. She blows people off the court, no long hard fought matches. And I've spent some time around Brooke. Her parents don't force her into practice, matches...etc. She is her own driving force and that's why I think she'll be more successful than most. She doesn't get tired of it. In fact, I've heard her mother complain of having to take her everywhere she wants to play.

[flowrider]

I agree that 180 matches is a lot. But asking the best pro in town how many tournaments a month to play isn't the answer. To make it professionally, you have to log more hours and more matches than anyone else(unless you're a Williams sister). That's more than your typical tennis pro will tell you, but Nick B. will agree, to make it big, you need matches. That's why you will see players battling it out on Nick's famous back courts.

Brooke Austin isn't your average 10 year old either. She's big, and biomechanically, the way she plays doesn't take a toll on her body. She blows people off the court, no long hard fought matches. And I've spent some time around Brooke. Her parents don't force her into practice, matches...etc. She is her own driving force and that's why I think she'll be more successful than most. She doesn't get tired of it. In fact, I've heard her mother complain of having to take her everywhere she wants to play.
Isn't she 12?

[Tom C]

I agree that 180 matches is a lot. But asking the best pro in town how many tournaments a month to play isn't the answer. To make it professionally, you have to log more hours and more matches than anyone else(unless you're a Williams sister). That's more than your typical tennis pro will tell you, but Nick B. will agree, to make it big, you need matches. That's why you will see players battling it out on Nick's famous back courts.

Brooke Austin isn't your average 10 year old either. She's big, and biomechanically, the way she plays doesn't take a toll on her body. She blows people off the court, no long hard fought matches. And I've spent some time around Brooke. Her parents don't force her into practice, matches...etc. She is her own driving force and that's why I think she'll be more successful than most. She doesn't get tired of it. In fact, I've heard her mother complain of having to take her everywhere she wants to play.

You need matches but not necessarily tournaments...

[TennisCoachFLA]

I agree that 180 matches is a lot. But asking the best pro in town how many tournaments a month to play isn't the answer. To make it professionally, you have to log more hours and more matches than anyone else(unless you're a Williams sister). That's more than your typical tennis pro will tell you, but Nick B. will agree, to make it big, you need matches. That's why you will see players battling it out on Nick's famous back courts.

Brooke Austin isn't your average 10 year old either. She's big, and biomechanically, the way she plays doesn't take a toll on her body. She blows people off the court, no long hard fought matches. And I've spent some time around Brooke. Her parents don't force her into practice, matches...etc. She is her own driving force and that's why I think she'll be more successful than most. She doesn't get tired of it. In fact, I've heard her mother complain of having to take her everywhere she wants to play.

Not true, does not matter if she is larger than other girls her age. The tendons, ligaments, joints are not developed. She will have negative effects to her body some day, that is just the way it works.

She is 10 years old, weekly tournaments are not what she needs. She needs to be playing multiple sports to develop her athletic base.

Kids that age learn in practice situations. She also should be practicing against international kids. She should be playing kids better than her.

You basically said the way she plays does not take a toll on her body? Huh? So what the heck is she doing? How would that improve her? What good players practice or play that way? There is no benefit to that!

She should play only 1 match a month against girls BETTER than her.

You said it all when you said, "she blows other girls off the court, no long hard fought matches"

That is a total waste of time, totally worthless waste of energy, waste of travel time, waste of gas, she is not learning a thing if that is what happens.

You mentioned Nick's famous challenge courts. That is not what happens on those courts.

[Lindsay]

You mentioned Nick's famous challenge courts. That is not what happens on those courts.

Oh sensei, enlighten me. And while you're at it, tell me how many kids you've coached to a gold ball...

[TenniseaWilliams]

Is it possible to agree with everyone on this thread? I have seen her play, and I think I understand what Lindsay is talking about. She has a natural ability to draw the ball to her, every stroke is high percentage, has a weak serve, and not much groundstroke pace. Her parents don't seem to be driving her, she is still playing way too much, and doing the math from tennis recruiting indicates that she is 12. Indy is not an international hot spot, except for a certain weekend in May.

USTA point system may be forcing certain players to play too much, and even under-rating those with more moderate tournament schedules, but in this case there seems to be something else going on. If it continues for a few more years, it may be labeled as raw talent.

[GameSetNavritilova]

Rankings don't make kids play too much -- parents do!!

[cmb]

I played 90 matches last year from april to november. its not bad at all. If you want to go to the movies you just go. Just worry about competing at the match, and when its finish...u let it go.

After about 20 matches in a month u get the hang of it and its no big deal

[Dashbarr]

While when you look at the numbers from a certain perspective, it seems like a lot, you have to realize that even if they play only 1 or two matches a weekend, they have about 3 and half months of vacation throughout the year. The way the schedule is set up at the tennis facility I go to, technically I can play 2 tournaments in a week and a weekend. So one must take into account the number of tournaments one can play during vacations.

Edit: I just remembered that last July I played about 10 tournament matches, quite a few team matches, and at least 25 practice matches. All of those were at the same venue. If I was willing to go to tournaments at other facilities, I think I could of got about 25 tournament matches in. It really isn't that many.

[babolat15]

remembrer that all of these palyers are going deep in the tournaments

[xnarek]

Dam do those kids have any free time?
Thats a lot of cash thought what the heck? Its as if tennis is taking over :|