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cukoo
05-27-2008, 07:15 PM
In general, will placing a reasonable amount of lead tape in the handle increase swingspeed? Around 6- 12 grams.

If it does not, what is the benefit of 6-12 grams of lead in the handle?

kcmiser
05-27-2008, 07:47 PM
No, it will not increase swingspeed. It will increase the static weight without much increase in swingweight.

I generally add weight to the handles of my racquets, and for me, it just feels comfortable that way-- the benefits are mostly psychological. If the overall weight is too light, the racquet feels like it will be unstable. If the racquet is not headlight enough, it feels like it will be overpowered and difficult to control. "Feels" is the crucial word in both. You could scientifically prove to me that my racquet is adequately stable or controllable without the lead, and I would still prefer the extra weight in the handle.

Will weight in the handle help you? Here's an easy way to find out. Palm three or four pennies (that's 2.5 grams each), and grip your racquet as normal. Wave it around a bit. Does it feel better or worse? Do you feel confident with it this way, or does it just feel sluggish? You can even hit a few balls this way in warm-ups.

Don't expect shots to suddenly zing off your racquet. You're just getting a balance that makes you feel comfortable.

tennisguy7482
05-28-2008, 04:24 AM
In general, will placing a reasonable amount of lead tape in the handle increase swingspeed? Around 6- 12 grams.

If it does not, what is the benefit of 6-12 grams of lead in the handle?

it will lower your balance and create a more manueverable racquet

Bubba
05-28-2008, 10:55 AM
it will lower your balance and create a more manueverable racquet

Generally correct. The full effect is that it will lower the frames balance point, thus increasing the overall headlight weighting. Static weight will increase while the swing weight will reduce. But, it's not a 1:1 trade-off.

Here's where it gets a bit tricky: Swing weight. Effectively, you are reducing SW by lowering the balance point (increasing HL) you are moving the balance, or pivot point of the frame closer to your hand. In doing so, you are reducing the overall kinematics required to bring the frame around. therefore, simply put, swing weight is an approximation of how heavy a frame feels... and how the weight distribution affects the inertia of the frame swing.

BTW, golf club makers mess with changing swing weight all the time

master_stringer_mitchy
05-28-2008, 11:01 AM
Generally correct. The full effect is that it will lower the frames balance point, thus increasing the overall headlight weighting. Static weight will increase while the swing weight will reduce. But, it's not a 1:1 trade-off.

Here's where it gets a bit tricky: Swing weight. Effectively, you are reducing SW by lowering the balance point (increasing HL) you are moving the balance, or pivot point of the frame closer to your hand. In doing so, you are reducing the overall kinematics required to bring the frame around. therefore, simply put, swing weight is an approximation of how heavy a frame feels... and how the weight distribution affects the inertia of the frame swing.

BTW, golf club makers mess with changing swing weight all the time

adding weight will allways make the swingweight higher, in this case not by much, but it will. adding weight to anywhere will increase the swing weight,

Bottle Rocket
05-28-2008, 11:06 AM
Generally correct. The full effect is that it will lower the frames balance point, thus increasing the overall headlight weighting. Static weight will increase while the swing weight will reduce.

Please tell me you're joking.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=197064&highlight=

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=199331&highlight=

Bottle Rocket
05-28-2008, 11:09 AM
it will lower your balance and create a more manueverable racquet

And for the record, ignoring swingweight as previously mentioned, maneuverability will NOT increase when you add weight.

To the original poster, check out this thread about weight in the racket handle (specifically the post by Midlife Crisis):

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=180652&highlight=

Some older posts by travelerjm explain the subject really well... It can have an effect on your swingspeed, but this is unrelated to a chance in maneuverability.

0d1n
05-28-2008, 11:30 AM
Swing weight can't be "lowered" by adding mass. If one feels that a more headlight racket is more maneuverable it's because he prefers the balance, not because he reduced swing weight.
Perception is NOT fact ... I have plenty of friends who pick up my Tour 10's and say "what a light racket" ... (without swinging them), and yet they think a Hammer or a Radical is heavier (even though it's actually about 25 grams lighter), because the balance is more head heavy.
The "pickup weight" that one perceives is sometimes apparently more directly related to balance rather than actual mass.

Bubba
05-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Yes, it can. Adding weight to the butt - e.g. below the pivot point (your wrist) will lower the EFFECTIVE swing weight.



And yes, static weight will increase.

Iced_jacob
05-28-2008, 11:39 AM
Yes, it can. Adding weight to the butt - e.g. below the pivot point (your wrist) will lower the EFFECTIVE swing weight.



And yes, static weight will increase.

And what is the difference of the effective than the swingweight we all know??
You cannot decrease the swingweight by adding mass to anything and that's a law imposed by physics not me...

Mansewerz
05-28-2008, 11:44 AM
I always wondered with lead tape. When you use it, must you cover it with electrical tape to prevent lead poisoning? Also, if you put it on your handle under the replacement grip, do you still need to cover with electrical tape?

Bubba
05-28-2008, 11:50 AM
And what is the difference of the effective than the swingweight we all know??
You cannot decrease the swingweight by adding mass to anything and that's a law imposed by physics not me...

Apply the following to Tennis (it's a golf club swing weight reference)...
http://www.clubmakers.co.kr/board/bbs/board/contents/file/32_0.pdf

This is my point. Effective swing weight CAN be reduced. Changing the balance point will alter the swing weight... though, like I said earlier, it's not a 1:1 equation.

Bottle Rocket
05-28-2008, 11:58 AM
Yes, it can. Adding weight to the butt - e.g. below the pivot point (your wrist) will lower the EFFECTIVE swing weight.


Apply the following to Tennis (it's a golf club swing weight reference)...
http://www.clubmakers.co.kr/board/bbs/board/contents/file/32_0.pdf

This is my point. Effective swing weight CAN be reduced. Changing the balance point will alter the swing weight... though, like I said earlier, it's not a 1:1 equation.

I don't know what this "effective swingweight" is, or why you even brought it up. What is affected by it? Can you explain "effective swingweight" to me, without pointing me to a golf link (although I will check that out when I get a chance)?

Swingweight, by DEFINITION, cannot decrease by adding weight regardless of where the weight is added and regardless of where the balance point is. Why even use the term by bringing up something like "effective swingweight"?

I do agree, personal perception is all that matters... I am with you 100% on that. I am not trying to start an argument, I just have too much time on my hands at the moment.

Bubba
05-28-2008, 12:24 PM
BR - Believe whatever you want. Changing the balance point changes the Moment-of-Inertia which translates to Swing weight.

Here's another nice reference for those interested in reading some science...
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/Papers/TPT-SwingWeight.pdf

This one is baseball, but same math applies.

You can jump to the section titled "End Loading and Knob loading a bat"

Bubba..... Out.

EricW
05-28-2008, 12:26 PM
I don't know what this "effective swingweight" is, or why you even brought it up. What is affected by it? Can you explain "effective swingweight" to me, without pointing me to a golf link (although I will check that out when I get a chance)?

Swingweight, by DEFINITION, cannot decrease by adding weight regardless of where the weight is added and regardless of where the balance point is. Why even use the term by bringing up something like "effective swingweight"?

I do agree, personal perception is all that matters... I am with you 100% on that. I am not trying to start an argument, I just have too much time on my hands at the moment.

Personal perception = "EFFECTIVE Swing-weight"

I'm pretty sure this is what he meant.

LPShanet
05-28-2008, 01:06 PM
Personal perception = "EFFECTIVE Swing-weight"

I'm pretty sure this is what he meant.

Actually, (Bubba, correct me if I'm wrong) what he's talking about is the theory that if you add weight below where the hand holds the racquet (and therefore below the axis around which it is being swung), that you can reduce the swingweight.

Whether or not you agree with this isn't personal opinion, it's a matter of measuring technique. Many racquet techs measure swingweight from the very end of the handle/buttcap, and if that's the case, then it's not possible to lower swingweight. However, if you measure it from the center of where you think the hand will be (usually a few inches up the grip from the buttcap, then the theory is that you can reduce swingweight, due to the pendulum-like assistance that the added weight gives you in swinging the frame.

You can decide which method/theory you prefer.

Mansewerz
05-28-2008, 01:08 PM
I always wondered with lead tape. When you use it, must you cover it with electrical tape to prevent lead poisoning? Also, if you put it on your handle under the replacement grip, do you still need to cover with electrical tape?

Umm, any answers to this?

Bubba
05-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Umm, any answers to this?

Just don't lick it and you're fine.

Bubba
05-28-2008, 01:21 PM
Actually, (Bubba, correct me if I'm wrong) what he's talking about is the theory that if you add weight below where the hand holds the racquet (and therefore below the axis around which it is being swung), that you can reduce the swingweight.

Whether or not you agree with this isn't personal opinion, it's a matter of measuring technique. Many racquet techs measure swingweight from the very end of the handle/buttcap, and if that's the case, then it's not possible to lower swingweight. However, if you measure it from the center of where you think the hand will be (usually a few inches up the grip from the buttcap, then the theory is that you can reduce swingweight, due to the pendulum-like assistance that the added weight gives you in swinging the frame.

You can decide which method/theory you prefer.

There you go. Thank you.

baek57
05-28-2008, 01:24 PM
Umm, any answers to this?

no you dont

tennisguy7482
05-28-2008, 03:02 PM
Generally correct. The full effect is that it will lower the frames balance point, thus increasing the overall headlight weighting. Static weight will increase while the swing weight will reduce. But, it's not a 1:1 trade-off.

Here's where it gets a bit tricky: Swing weight. Effectively, you are reducing SW by lowering the balance point (increasing HL) you are moving the balance, or pivot point of the frame closer to your hand. In doing so, you are reducing the overall kinematics required to bring the frame around. therefore, simply put, swing weight is an approximation of how heavy a frame feels... and how the weight distribution affects the inertia of the frame swing.

BTW, golf club makers mess with changing swing weight all the time

the swingweight will NOT reduce.

Iced_jacob
05-28-2008, 03:28 PM
Actually, (Bubba, correct me if I'm wrong) what he's talking about is the theory that if you add weight below where the hand holds the racquet (and therefore below the axis around which it is being swung), that you can reduce the swingweight.

Whether or not you agree with this isn't personal opinion, it's a matter of measuring technique. Many racquet techs measure swingweight from the very end of the handle/buttcap, and if that's the case, then it's not possible to lower swingweight. However, if you measure it from the center of where you think the hand will be (usually a few inches up the grip from the buttcap, then the theory is that you can reduce swingweight, due to the pendulum-like assistance that the added weight gives you in swinging the frame.

You can decide which method/theory you prefer.

That will make the racket easier to twist in your hand not swing it through the ball...The moment of inertia of a particle increase as its mass increases independent of where the mass increase was. That would just alter the axis of rotation and the centre of mass

markwillplay
05-28-2008, 03:33 PM
once again, I will give practicle example from the babolat machine at my local stringers. When I put weight on the handle, the measured swingweight of the stick went down slightly. I guess that is because of where the racquet is held by the machine....but it did go down. No doubt the weight in your hand is not reduced but the machine says that if you add weight to the handle on the lower side, the measured swingweight is reduced. Don't flame me, I do not care one way or the other because I like the feeling of headlight regardless of weight...I am just telling you what I saw with my own eyes.

TennisDawg
05-28-2008, 03:43 PM
This probably won't answer your question, completely. But, the advertised swing weight given by racket manufacturers is based on an axis of rotation that is 10 cm (about 4 inches) from the butt end of the racket, towards the head of the racket. So, if you add weights to the butt end of the racket the swing weight would not change or be negligible. If you add weights to the head let's say 12 oclock, then swing weight increases dramatically, since the distance is farthest from the axis of rotation (about 23 inches). Weights at the butt end are on the other side of the 5 cm axis of rotation and change the swing weight very little.

tennisguy7482
05-28-2008, 04:31 PM
once again, I will give practicle example from the babolat machine at my local stringers. When I put weight on the handle, the measured swingweight of the stick went down slightly. I guess that is because of where the racquet is held by the machine....but it did go down. No doubt the weight in your hand is not reduced but the machine says that if you add weight to the handle on the lower side, the measured swingweight is reduced. Don't flame me, I do not care one way or the other because I like the feeling of headlight regardless of weight...I am just telling you what I saw with my own eyes.

i am not flaming you but i am just curious, how many units difference was there? the rdc can fluctuate even if you do the same racquet over and over.

markwillplay
05-28-2008, 05:40 PM
they both went from about 329 or 330 (can't remember) to 323 and 327. They were rds 002 tours

movdqa
05-28-2008, 05:57 PM
Adding weight to the handle will make the racquet more stable. It will also increase the amount of effort required on the serve.

Those are my experiences with a 17 ounce racquet that's over 21 points head-light.

2nd_Serve
05-28-2008, 05:57 PM
Putting lead tape in the handle makes it more manuverable for serve & volleyers. Also, for me, I found that it provides more control

JavierLW
05-28-2008, 06:00 PM
I always wondered with lead tape. When you use it, must you cover it with electrical tape to prevent lead poisoning? Also, if you put it on your handle under the replacement grip, do you still need to cover with electrical tape?

Electrical tape wouldnt be sufficent to keep you from getting lead poisoning if that was to be a problem.

I cover it with extra tape though anyway, for no other reason then it helps keep it from coming off when you decide to pull off the replacement grip.

tennisguy7482
05-28-2008, 06:09 PM
Adding weight to the handle will make the racquet more stable. It will also increase the amount of effort required on the serve.

Those are my experiences with a 17 ounce racquet that's over 21 points head-light.

i disagree 100%. while that may be what YOU feel, but i do not think that those statements are true. what does everyone else think? am i nuts?

when i think a racquet is stable, i take it as its less likely to twist on off-center hits. i dont think that lead under the handle would help this side to side action. weight at 3 and 9 however......

movdqa
05-28-2008, 06:33 PM
i disagree 100%. while that may be what YOU feel, but i do not think that those statements are true. what does everyone else think? am i nuts?

when i think a racquet is stable, i take it as its less likely to twist on off-center hits. i dont think that lead under the handle would help this side to side action. weight at 3 and 9 however......

I used silicone epoxy adding about 5.5 ounces or almost 50% of the weight of the original racquet to the handle.

I asked my son who's just finished two semesters of physics and he said that the amount of twisting is a function of the relative radii and the mass (or something like that). The epoxy is spread throughout the handle. I asked him if a thousand pounds were added to the handle if that would reduce twist. The ratio of the radii is about eight to one. Seems to me that adding enough weight to the handle at some point would reduce twist significantly if a material dense enough to do that were available. He said that the added weight probably has a small effect. The added weight and probably the material chosen has a considerable effect on vibration and is great for blocking back very hard-hit shots.

Or maybe I don't have a lot of off-center hits.

10sfreak
05-28-2008, 06:52 PM
i disagree 100%. while that may be what YOU feel, but i do not think that those statements are true. what does everyone else think? am i nuts?

when i think a racquet is stable, i take it as its less likely to twist on off-center hits. i dont think that lead under the handle would help this side to side action. weight at 3 and 9 however......
I'd say that there are 2 different kinds of "stability". The first would be stability as it relates to twisting. Adding weight at the 3 and 9 positions would increase that stability. But, adding weight to the handle can also increase stability, but of a different kind. It would increase the overall weight of the racquet, making it less susceptible to being pushed back by the impact of the ball - in other words, it'll have more "plow-through", thus feeling more stable. I hope this makes sense...

tennisguy7482
05-29-2008, 04:46 AM
I'd say that there are 2 different kinds of "stability". The first would be stability as it relates to twisting. Adding weight at the 3 and 9 positions would increase that stability. But, adding weight to the handle can also increase stability, but of a different kind. It would increase the overall weight of the racquet, making it less susceptible to being pushed back by the impact of the ball - in other words, it'll have more "plow-through", thus feeling more stable. I hope this makes sense...

yes, that makes sense

Bubba
05-29-2008, 07:28 AM
they both went from about 329 or 330 (can't remember) to 323 and 327. They were rds 002 tours

Like I've said repeatedly... if you place weight in the butt cap, or at the end of the grip/pallet... and it is below the pivot location - the swing weight WILL be reduced.

Bubba
05-29-2008, 09:51 AM
I used silicone epoxy adding about 5.5 ounces or almost 50% of the weight of the original racquet to the handle.

I asked my son who's just finished two semesters of physics and he said that the amount of twisting is a function of the relative radii and the mass (or something like that). The epoxy is spread throughout the handle. I asked him if a thousand pounds were added to the handle if that would reduce twist. The ratio of the radii is about eight to one. Seems to me that adding enough weight to the handle at some point would reduce twist significantly if a material dense enough to do that were available. He said that the added weight probably has a small effect. The added weight and probably the material chosen has a considerable effect on vibration and is great for blocking back very hard-hit shots.

Or maybe I don't have a lot of off-center hits.

Have a discussion about torsional stability. Since the handle is in effect the central axis of the frame, adding mass will improve stability (though slightly). Where adding lead to the 3 and 9 positions also helps is that it facilitates the inertia movement and stabilizes the outer hoop (balance)... as well as helping overcome torsional rotation.

Iced_jacob
05-30-2008, 12:01 AM
Have a discussion about torsional stability. Since the handle is in effect the central axis of the frame, adding mass will improve stability (though slightly). Where adding lead to the 3 and 9 positions also helps is that it facilitates the inertia movement and stabilizes the outer hoop (balance)... as well as helping overcome torsional rotation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia

If you find an equation where the moment of inertia decreases by adding mass let me know.
I do study physics the last 6 years and this is NOT possible

Bubba
05-30-2008, 04:26 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia

If you find an equation where the moment of inertia decreases by adding mass let me know.
I do study physics the last 6 years and this is NOT possible


I said BELOW THE PIVOT POINT

Also, your comment in no way addresses the quote of my message.

Though to be completely correct... we should be discusing polar moment of inertia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_moment_of_inertia), which is a measure of an object's ability to resist torsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_%28mechanics%29) (twisting).

Iced_jacob
05-30-2008, 03:05 PM
I said BELOW THE PIVOT POINT

Also, your comment in no way addresses the quote of my message.

Though to be completely correct... we should be discusing polar moment of inertia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_moment_of_inertia), which is a measure of an object's ability to resist torsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_%28mechanics%29) (twisting).

Swingweight has nothing to do with twisting...It has with how much power you need to apply to swing the racket NOT rotate it!! And when you hold the racket from the end of the grip then there is no mass on the short side. But even if it was it would be like trying to swing two different objects of different weights in opposite directions. The mass of the one cannot cancel the other. The RDC shows lower since it doesn't count exactly from where you are holding the grip but from closer to the centre of the racket. You still have to apply MORE power even if the mass of the shorter side is increased. Anw I have nothing to say more on the subject. If you want to decrease sw by adding mass do it.

Bud
05-30-2008, 06:25 PM
Like I've said repeatedly... if you place weight in the butt cap, or at the end of the grip/pallet... and it is below the pivot location - the swing weight WILL be reduced.

So, Bubba... the machine is telling us that the swingweight is reduced. Isn't that because it measures swingweight approximately 4" from the buttcap?

Also, to a human being wouldn't the racquet swing heavier, regardless of where weight is added?

If I held the racquet, by its grip, straight out in front of me with a straight arm... and then rotate my wrist side to side (so the racquet rotates 180 degrees about my wrist)... isn't that basically what a swingweight measuring machine does (I've never seen or used one)?

If so, this would explain why adding weight 'below' the pivot point would lower the SW?

Bud
06-06-2008, 12:19 PM
Bubba, what's your response to my last post?

ronalditop
07-15-2008, 08:20 PM
i have a lm prestige mp and I use three OG. it is a little headlight. but i need more control so I put today weight in the handle ( i use two papers cause here is hard to find lead tape, but it works!) and now is a lot more headlight. also now that i swing it i can notice a difference, i can swing faster. and thatīs not my perception only, i give it to my father to test it and he felt the same. now i have to go try it to see if it have more control. i hope so.