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View Full Version : The only way to beat Nadal, beat him at his own game


flyer
06-06-2008, 10:25 PM
This is a post on another thread and I liked it and would like to see people's reactions and opinions...

Everyone always says that he needs to "be aggressive," "serve and volley," "go for his shot," etc, w/e i greatly disagree...

hes been going with the aggressive game plan the last like 10 times hes played Nadal on clay and it still hasn't worked, it may work for a short period of time but over the course of a match the strategy is ineffective because Nadal uses that aggression against you, he frustrates you into going for too much and committing errors, he hits ridiculous winners from defensive positions, and puts balls at your feet when at net so the volley is all but impossible....being aggressive is not the answer, as has been proved

I'm alone on this but I think the only way to beat Nadal on clay is to out-Nadal Nadal, that means hunkering down and getting dirty, make a lot of balls and concentrate on defense, make Nadal hit that extra shot, stay in points and force Nadal to commit errors, be ready to play long hard points and be ready to grind for five hours and five sets, know your enemy and beat him at his own game, break him down physically, Federer has said he is in better shape than Nadal so prove it, prove you can grind him into submission...out-Nadal Nadal, its the only way

i know it sounds crazy and i know im alone on this but its like every player goes out there aggressive and every player gets beat, so being aggressive has an about 0% chance of working

clay is about patients, not reckless abandon

edberg505
06-06-2008, 10:30 PM
This is a post on another thread and I liked it and would like to see people's reactions and opinions...

I think there is a guy that does this and his name is called Ferrer, look what happens to him on clay.

ACE of Hearts
06-06-2008, 10:30 PM
I dont know, i think he needs to be aggresive.Last year he was 1 out of 17 on break points.I always have said that he needs to get his first serves in and serve outwide.He needs to open up the court more.

Mick
06-06-2008, 10:31 PM
yeah but it's tough to out Nadal when Nadal keeps on hitting high topspin balls to Federer's backhand.

pow
06-06-2008, 10:32 PM
I think the problem with trying to "out-Nadal" Nadal is that he is Nadal and he is the best at doing what he does. His defense game is very offensive on clay because of those heavy high bouncing balls.

ACE of Hearts
06-06-2008, 10:33 PM
Fed's hiring of Higueras is puzzling.I wonder what his gameplan to Fed will be.

flyer
06-06-2008, 10:34 PM
Your right guys he will probably still lose, but he will certainly lose if he sticks to the same "be agressive" game plan, clay is not about aggression, its about patients and the more agressive you are the more you play right into Nadal's hands, he uses agression against you...

my_forehand
06-06-2008, 10:37 PM
If you're waiting for Nadal to hit the net, you haveta install a volleyball net.

ACE of Hearts
06-06-2008, 10:39 PM
Nadal leaves alot of short balls, Fed needs to punish him when he does that.People have said that he should use the slice but he doesnt use it as much.

127mph
06-06-2008, 10:42 PM
he (federer) just needs to serve lights out. i mean really hard struck serves that are heavy and jam nadal up. and step into nadals serves especially the second serves he spins in. and keep the rallies short and dictate them. hard to do none the less. vamos federer

ACE of Hearts
06-06-2008, 10:45 PM
I would like to see cooler weather like Hamburg.That makes the ball heavier.The last 2 years have been hot.

Mick
06-06-2008, 10:53 PM
I think the only way to beat Nadal on clay is to out-Nadal Nadal, that means hunkering down and getting dirty, make a lot of balls and concentrate on defense, make Nadal hit that extra shot, stay in points and force Nadal to commit errors, be ready to play long hard points and be ready to grind for five hours and five sets, know your enemy and beat him at his own game, break him down physically, Federer has said he is in better shape than Nadal so prove it, prove you can grind him into submission...out-Nadal Nadal, its the only way

Nadal said he didn't think that he could make mistakes today and he was very dominant on the court.

This contradicts with what you wrote above.

(nadal - djokovic)

"The level of the two first sets was very good today. Almost perfect," Nadal said. So I'm happy about how I played today. It was my best match at Roland Garros. I was very dominant on the court. I could throw the ball anywhere I wanted. I was dominating both on my forehand and backhand, and I didn't have to think that I could make mistakes. That was key."

flyer
06-06-2008, 10:58 PM
Nadal said he didn't think that he could make mistakes today and he was very dominant on the court.

This contradicts with what you wrote above.

(nadal - djokovic)

"The level of the two first sets was very good today. Almost perfect," Nadal said. So I'm happy about how I played today. It was my best match at Roland Garros. I was very dominant on the court. I could throw the ball anywhere I wanted. I was dominating both on my forehand and backhand, and I didn't have to think that I could make mistakes. That was key."

Well if Nadal plays "Almost perfect," it doesn't matter what Federer's strategy is he will not win, he needs Nadal to have a bad day if he wants any chance....

with that said Djokovic wasn't concentrating on defense and making him hit that extra shot, he was trying to play agressive and dictate play, which plays right into Nadals hands, so I don't see any contradiction, if anything this proves my points that agressive play (against Nadal) only helps Nadal in the end

edberg505
06-06-2008, 10:58 PM
Your right guys he will probably still lose, but he will certainly lose if he sticks to the same "be agressive" game plan, clay is not about aggression, its about patients and the more agressive you are the more you play right into Nadal's hands, he uses agression against you...

That's not true. If you try to play safe, Nadal will just hit you off the court. But if Federer is the aggressor and his shots are on well then I sure pitty the guy on the other side of the net even if his name is Nadal.

pow
06-06-2008, 11:01 PM
That's not true. If you try to play safe, Nadal will just hit you off the court. But if Federer is the aggressor and his shots are on well then I sure pitty the guy on the other side of the net even if his name is Nadal.

good point, if you play defensive against Nadal on any surface he will start hitting the short angled cross court forehands out wide that throw the other player way off the court where they cannot reach the shot or returns at the expense of being way out of position.

flyer
06-06-2008, 11:03 PM
That's not true. If you try to play safe, Nadal will just hit you off the court. But if Federer is the aggressor and his shots are on well then I sure pitty the guy on the other side of the net even if his name is Nadal.

You can pitty Nadal all you want but the fact is that Nadal has used Federer's aggression (and your pitty that apparently arises from it) to 3 FO titles, so I certainly don't pitty Nadal if Federer just sticks to the same game plan and hopes this time will somehow be different....

all im saying is the aggression game plan has not worked and is completely against the rationality of clay court tennis, so the rational thing to do would be to try something new and play clay court tennis, how does that not make sense?.....seems like a no brainer to me

Mick
06-06-2008, 11:05 PM
the contradiction is you said to beat you have to out-Nadal by concentrating on defense.

But Nadal said he "was very dominant on the court," thus he was not playing a defensive game.

flyer
06-06-2008, 11:12 PM
the contradiction is you said to beat you have to out-Nadal by concentrating on defense.

But Nadal said he "was very dominant on the court," thus he was not playing a defensive game.

good points, Nadal is very agressive at times, but his game is still based on his defense, he gets into positions were he can comfortably dictate play gradually throughout a point and uses defense and his starting point to do so, so defense is what allows him to be agressive

lonestar
06-06-2008, 11:15 PM
I think the key to make Nadal feel at least a bit uncomfortable is to force him to come to the net more. Though he improved his netplay too, I consider it still his biggest "weakness". You could see that in the 3rd set yesterday against Joker. You won't win matches by letting this guy run left and right behind the baseline. He's so comfortable and strong there. It's what he loves to do and what he does best.

So if I were Federer I would short slice much much more, especially those high bouncing top spin balls going to his backhand although the slice isn't the most effective stroke on clay. Sure, Nadal will punish some of them once in a while, but at least he would have something new to think about and would be forced to leave his comfort zone.

carlos djackal
06-06-2008, 11:19 PM
I Agree That Clay Is Advantageous For Players Who Have The Patience To Slug It Out But In Nadal-federer Case I Doubt If It Will Work For Fed, I've Seen Nadal Is More Patient Than Fed And I Don't Think Fed Can Outslug Nadal On Clay, To Beat Nadal Fed Should Bring His Serve To Top Level And His Backhand Should Land At The Baseline Otherwise Nadal Would Feast On It......s&v On The 1st Serve......

edberg505
06-06-2008, 11:24 PM
good point, if you play defensive against Nadal on any surface he will start hitting the short angled cross court forehands out wide that throw the other player way off the court where they cannot reach the shot or returns at the expense of being way out of position.

Yeah, that is exactly what will happen. Short angled shots followed by a prompt volley put away or either a deft drop shot that is soft as medicated cotton. I've seen it time and time again. Aggression is the only way. Federer did it in Hamburg and I surely think he can do it again.

Forehand_Punisher
06-06-2008, 11:31 PM
Trying to out Nadal Nadal is just silly. Federer needs to do what he does best. And do it even better. That means serving well and staying on the aggressive.

This is going to be a tough match no matter how well Federer plays. To borrow a line from Rocky IV, if I were his coach, I would tell Federer, "This is our match. You start, and you don't stop! All your strength! All your power! All your love! Everything you've got! To win, you have to knock him out! Punch until you can't punch no more."

"You make sure the world remembers, forever, the day you whipped Nadal's ***!"

Then Federer punches his locker and says, "Yeah!!!"

Well...maybe not...but it should be a heck of a match either way.

lonestar
06-06-2008, 11:34 PM
Trying to out Nadal Nadal is just silly. Federer needs to do what he does best. And do it even better. That means serving well and staying on the aggressive.

This is going to be a tough match no matter how well Federer plays. To borrow a line from Rocky IV, if I were his coach, I would tell Federer, "This is our match. You start, and you don't stop! All your strength! All your power! All your love! Everything you've got! To win, you have to knock him out! Punch until you can't punch no more."

"You make sure the world remembers, forever, the day you whipped Nadal's ***!"

Then Federer punches his locker and says, "Yeah!!!"

Well...maybe not...but it should be a heck of a match either way.

Hahaha good one :)

superman1
06-06-2008, 11:36 PM
This is that exact opposite of how you beat Nadal.

You beat him by being super aggressive, like Djokovic was towards the end of the match to get back on serve and get to a tiebreak. He was blasting winners from everywhere and trying to get to net often. That's what Federer will have to do.

It's still probably not enough, but it's better than rallying from the baseline with him. That's a lost cause.

Mr. Ding
06-06-2008, 11:41 PM
Ding, thinks Nadaling Nadal equals laughable trip to the emergency room.

edberg505
06-06-2008, 11:44 PM
Trying to out Nadal Nadal is just silly. Federer needs to do what he does best. And do it even better. That means serving well and staying on the aggressive.

This is going to be a tough match no matter how well Federer plays. To borrow a line from Rocky IV, if I were his coach, I would tell Federer, "This is our match. You start, and you don't stop! All your strength! All your power! All your love! Everything you've got! To win, you have to knock him out! Punch until you can't punch no more."

"You make sure the world remembers, forever, the day you whipped Nadal's ***!"

Then Federer punches his locker and says, "Yeah!!!"

Well...maybe not...but it should be a heck of a match either way.

Hahaha, I love this post. Bravo. Rocky 4 is one of my favourite movies and while reading this I could actually picture the bald guy telling Rocky this. Hahaha.

PCXL-Fan
06-07-2008, 12:16 AM
Exactly I couldn't have said it better myself.

Although I haven't read any of the posts in this thread yet I assume we are all in agreement Federer should start on the erythropoietin (EPO) and human growth hormone treatment as well. :p

luckyguy
06-07-2008, 12:29 AM
based on their hamburg finals last year, federer was able to defeat nadal by being aggressive and not giving good angles to nadal (nadal is very deadly in angles). fed was just constantly returning the balls to nadal's feet with good depth and with little angle to work with. also federer has to vary his tactics, if fed would just continously attack nadal's backhand, he'll be screwed again, because nadal's backhand was never a weakness...

luckyguy
06-07-2008, 12:38 AM
look at the strategy employed by novak and fed to nadal..they were continously attacking the backhand, waiting for him to make an error on that side, nadal was also just returning the ball to their backhand side, this would go on until nadal unleashes a crosscourt backhand..BOOM instant winner...

but if you look how nalbandian and ferrer defeated nadal (at least on hardcourt), they were attacking his forehand side...ferrer using his inside out and nalbandian with his outside backhand...nadal usually loses this way..getting defeated at his forehand side..

luckyboy1300
06-07-2008, 01:33 AM
anyone who tries to out-nadal nadal will just be blown off the court, imo. nadal's defence is simply out of this world, more like a wall at the other side of the net. fed needs to hit consistent aggressive shots to breach the wall.

The balls in your court.
06-07-2008, 02:41 AM
Brad Gilbert disagrees:

He says that using a grinders strategy to beat a grinder is pure suicide.

You cannot play a grinders game better than a grinder because they are better at it than you ever will be. They do this all the time and are used to it while you are new to it.

Dont believe that ...just take a look at Vilas vs. Borg.

Instead brad feels you need to get to the net to beat a grinder....a.k.a a "runner". He also says : "Dont let a runner run".

By that one should not hit into the corners but rather in the middle of the court or when on the run hit behind him.

AAAA
06-07-2008, 03:30 AM
Years ago I saw Henman take out lesser clay courters by bringing them into the net, and never engaging in many rallies with them. Henman didn't give them any rhythm and kept them off balance and out of their comfort zones. He used those tactics brilliantly against Coria in the semi-final for a time but then everything went Coria's way when he probably thought about how great he was playing, about how he was destroying Coria and the possibility of winning a major on his worst surface and everything the press back home would say about it. In short Henman started thinking about the adulation he'd get from winning and that was his mistake.

Federer needs to play to his strengths which is hit great shots use variety, use the whole court. He needs to believe and hope if he plays his game it will be enough to win.

LPShanet
06-07-2008, 03:52 AM
If we look at the people who have posted wins over Nadal, most of them seem to have a few things in common. Mainly they hit hard, relatively flat and get the ball through the court quickly. Obviously this is tougher to do on a slow court like clay, and Nadal needs to be a little off (or hurt or tired) for it to work, but the key seems to be taking time away from him.

Another thing to note is that while Federer has been SAYING that he's playing Nadal more aggressively, the actual points don't always bear this out. The sets he's won against Rafa were often played aggressively, but he also has long patches of playing fairly passively and waiting to counterpunch. In general, he seems to do this more against many opponents than he did a few years ago. Playing aggressively against Rafa isn't just a matter of Fed coming to net or hitting hard, it's a matter of taking the ball on the rise, stepping into the court and dictating play rather than reacting to what is thrown at him.

joeri888
06-07-2008, 05:22 AM
I think there is a guy that does this and his name is called Ferrer, look what happens to him on clay.

HE certainly nadals Nadal, but he doesn't OUT-Nadal him.

I think it';s obvious that if you can do it, you should.. nobody is that good at nadalling though. I think the way Roger played the first 6 games in Hamburg is the way to force an opening. You can't keep that up forever but on the day, you just need that bit of form more to close out the opening set. Than you also need extreme luck and hit every relatively easy ball you get inside the court. You can't make an unforced error, and have to serve like 70% first serves all above 200kph. Than you stand a chance.

Trevor
06-07-2008, 05:29 AM
Federer needs to hit deep flat/slice shots down the middle of the court so Rafa can't create his insane angles. Roger should also vary the depth but keep it down the middle.

flyer
06-07-2008, 05:55 AM
This is that exact opposite of how you beat Nadal.

You beat him by being super aggressive, like Djokovic was towards the end of the match to get back on serve and get to a tiebreak. He was blasting winners from everywhere and trying to get to net often. That's what Federer will have to do.

It's still probably not enough, but it's better than rallying from the baseline with him. That's a lost cause.

Being agressive is not how you beat Nadal, when has being agressive troubled Nadalin the least at the FO, Djokovic still lost the set, let alone the match in strait sets, as for its still probably not being enough, it was not enough the last 3 years and Nadal is even better now so surly it is not enough...

based on their hamburg finals last year, federer was able to defeat nadal by being aggressive and not giving good angles to nadal (nadal is very deadly in angles). fed was just constantly returning the balls to nadal's feet with good depth and with little angle to work with. also federer has to vary his tactics, if fed would just continously attack nadal's backhand, he'll be screwed again, because nadal's backhand was never a weakness...

Any result in Hamburg is irrelevant in comparison to the FO because Hamburg results have never been an indication of either FO form or results, this is because of the difference in the clay and conditions (let alone the fact that Nadal was physically and mentally exhausted)

anyone who tries to out-nadal nadal will just be blown off the court, imo. nadal's defence is simply out of this world, more like a wall at the other side of the net. fed needs to hit consistent aggressive shots to breach the wall.

Just like he broke the wall last year, and the year before that, and 3 years ago? Why do you people think that this time will be any different?

Years ago I saw Henman take out lesser clay courters by bringing them into the net, and never engaging in many rallies with them. Henman didn't give them any rhythm and kept them off balance and out of their comfort zones. He used those tactics brilliantly against Coria in the semi-final for a time but then everything went Coria's way when he probably thought about how great he was playing, about how he was destroying Coria and the possibility of winning a major on his worst surface and everything the press back home would say about it. In short Henman started thinking about the adulation he'd get from winning and that was his mistake.

Federer needs to play to his strengths which is hit great shots use variety, use the whole court. He needs to believe and hope if he plays his game it will be enough to win.

Federer also is capable of great defense, and clay court tennis is based on defense, so he needs to use that as a starting point and were Nadal down...hitting hard agressive shots only paying right into Nadal's hands

wyutani
06-07-2008, 06:29 AM
yeah but it's tough to out Nadal when Nadal keeps on hitting high topspin balls to Federer's backhand.

what fed needs to do is bringnadal to the net. hie weakess is his net game, why not attak it?

DashaandSafin
06-07-2008, 06:38 AM
Nadal is the best in the world at what he does, its incomparable. Federer needs to do what he did in Hamburg. Go for his shots. I dont think you understand how hard it is to outgrind Nadal. When's the last time Nadal lost to a grinder, a person like Ferrer? Not in my memory.

BeHappy
06-07-2008, 06:55 AM
Didn't Federer Try This In Last Years Final?

dingo
06-07-2008, 07:30 AM
I agree, trying to outhit Nadal from the baseline is a losing proposition. I don't think s/v would work either - too slow a surface too good a player. I'm thinking mixing it up a lot is the only way to go. High 1st serve % is an absolute must against Nadal on clay. I wouldn't go for aces on clay against this guy. Take off a bit and get it in with good placement. I don't think anybody can out grind this guy on clay. For that matter, not many can hope to out grind him - period. He's the ultimate grinder at the moment.

West Coast Ace
06-07-2008, 07:35 AM
LOL! Flyer, you're on a roll. Next you'll be telling Venus Williams how to win Wimby is by moonballing and S&V every other point!

Patience and 50 cents will get you a bad cup of coffee - and an *ss whooping against Rafa on clay.

No one - at least no one with a brain - is saying he should just kamikazi run to the net on every point. But if he's content to trade groundies he will not win a set. The Nadal cc FH to his BH will destroy him.

TheTruth
06-07-2008, 08:51 AM
The Hamburg result is laughable, when you consider Nadal played in 4 finals that month. He was tired, folks. After that first set all Fed had to do was get the ball over the net.

Although it was comical, the one poster with the Rocky IV scene probably had it right. Fed will have to go for it, and not lose his nerve. Djokovic is, in my opinion, more aggressive than Fed, but the only reason he came back in that last set was because Nadal relaxed, seeing that the match was easier than he had imagined. In other words, Nadal got caught napping, but woke up in time.

This is the French Open. Both players want it bad, but only one player will win. None of us know how their nerves will play out tomorrow. Anything can happen, at any time.

May the best man on the day win. Me? I'm hoping for a four-peat. Go Rafa!

Nadal_Freak
06-07-2008, 09:59 AM
based on their hamburg finals last year, federer was able to defeat nadal by being aggressive and not giving good angles to nadal (nadal is very deadly in angles). fed was just constantly returning the balls to nadal's feet with good depth and with little angle to work with. also federer has to vary his tactics, if fed would just continously attack nadal's backhand, he'll be screwed again, because nadal's backhand was never a weakness...
Being aggressive against Nadal is a lot easier when the ball isn't jumping above your shoulder. Federer has to combine heavy topspin with aggressive play. Keep hitting high to Nadal's backhand until Nadal gives a short ball. Than you can be aggressive. On lower bouncing clay, that style won't be effective as the ball won't get high enough on Nadal. The flat hitting Blake style game would work in that case. Fed's serve has got to be on as well.

NamRanger
06-07-2008, 10:20 AM
Flyer, we are talking about a guy who outgrinded a guy who was doping (Mariano Puerta) in one of the most grueling finals I've ever seen to date. There's no way you can outgrind Nadal, period.

Morrissey
06-07-2008, 10:33 AM
People now are just throwing ideas out there to see which one sticks and then they come off as a genius.

Thor
06-07-2008, 10:34 AM
Flyer, we are talking about a guy who outgrinded a guy who was doping (Mariano Puerta) in one of the most grueling finals I've ever seen to date. There's no way you can outgrind Nadal, period.

Exactly.
The thought of Federer able to outgrind pathetic is laughable,that is not the way to go.

Morrissey
06-07-2008, 10:38 AM
Flyer, we are talking about a guy who outgrinded a guy who was doping (Mariano Puerta) in one of the most grueling finals I've ever seen to date. There's no way you can outgrind Nadal, period.

If Nadal is healthy while moving and hitting like this thereīs no one that can beat him on clay. Maybe the next big clay prodigy in some years. AT this point I think weīve heard endless ĻstrategiesĻ to beat Nadal on clay and none of them are enough to do it. Hitting to the backhand, no. Hitting to the forehand, no. Outgrind him, no. Blast him off the court, impossible. Come to net, no. Nothing has worked, and when you add the best of 5 sets factor itīs impossible to sustain that strategy on clay and with Nadalīs passing shots, defense, angles, depth and spin from the back. He really is the perfect clay court player.

ACE of Hearts
06-07-2008, 10:40 AM
It amazes me to see these Nadal-***** think that its nearly impossible to beat this guy on clay.Thats why the game is played.Sure Nadal has won and is undefeated but streaks do come to an end.Maybe it wont come tomorrow but to think its nearly impossible is a joke in itself.

Thor
06-07-2008, 10:42 AM
It amazes me to see these Nadal-***** think that its nearly impossible to beat this guy on clay.Thats why the game is played.Sure Nadal has won and is undefeated but streaks do come to an end.Maybe it wont come tomorrow but to think its nearly impossible is a joke in itself.

Not impossible to beat him - impossible to outgrind him,and this is what the OP is about

Nadal_Freak
06-07-2008, 10:43 AM
It amazes me to see these Nadal-***** think that its nearly impossible to beat this guy on clay.Thats why the game is played.Sure Nadal has won and is undefeated but streaks do come to an end.Maybe it wont come tomorrow but to think its nearly impossible is a joke in itself.
I'll have to disagree at RG. 99.9% sure Nadal wins when he is fresh. Mathieu was the closest ever to beating Nadal and he got 1 set.

Morrissey
06-07-2008, 10:50 AM
It amazes me to see these Nadal-***** think that its nearly impossible to beat this guy on clay.Thats why the game is played.Sure Nadal has won and is undefeated but streaks do come to an end.Maybe it wont come tomorrow but to think its nearly impossible is a joke in itself.

27-0 Nuff said.

veroniquem
06-07-2008, 10:54 AM
I think the problem with trying to "out-Nadal" Nadal is that he is Nadal and he is the best at doing what he does. His defense game is very offensive on clay because of those heavy high bouncing balls.
I agree, if you try to out-nadal Nadal, you'll just be the second best Nadal on court and you're bound to lose. You're better off doing the things you're comfortable with and trying to do them perfectly.

Ultra2HolyGrail
06-07-2008, 10:55 AM
Hitting to nadals backhand yes, constantly. letting Nadal hit comfortable all day from the baseline= forget about it. On clay it's almost impossible though not to have to grind it out. Fed will simply have to run nadal silly and not let him get comfortable from the baseline.. Easier said than done.

veroniquem
06-07-2008, 10:59 AM
It amazes me to see these Nadal-***** think that its nearly impossible to beat this guy on clay.Thats why the game is played.Sure Nadal has won and is undefeated but streaks do come to an end.Maybe it wont come tomorrow but to think its nearly impossible is a joke in itself.
He has never lost in 4 participations at RG. If that can't convince you, I don't know what will. The only player who said publicly what you're saying now "he's not unbeatable on clay, he's very beatable" is Djoko 2 years ago and Djoko hasn't even managed to get a set from him at RG! Of course he won't be unbeatable forever, nobody is claiming that. We're just talking about right now.

Nadal_Monfils
06-07-2008, 11:00 AM
I think Fed needs to incorporate a lot of dropshots and short slices in the match. Nadal gets to almost every drop shot but he is usually forced to just push the ball because he can not hit under it with his extreme grips unless it is a very poor drop shot.

Morrissey
06-07-2008, 11:05 AM
I think Fed needs to incorporate a lot of dropshots and short slices in the match. Nadal gets to almost every drop shot but he is usually forced to just push the ball because he can not hit under it with his extreme grips unless it is a very poor drop shot.

On clay the slice doesnīt stay down, not enough to hurt Nadalīs forehand. Nadal handles the slice on clay like itīs a topspin shot.

MasterBruceTennis
06-07-2008, 11:39 AM
Who won over Borg on 1976, 77 and 1982?
Would that help?
McE's Serve-N-Volley...perhaps!
Fed will try that tomorrow...perhaps!

tricky
06-07-2008, 11:52 AM
Playing a grinding game on Nadal doesn't work. If you try to grind him, Nadal will pick this up and start hitting inside-out FHs that'll easily run you off the court, or he'll put the ball away with his backhand. In other words, he'll play like he does on grass. His entire game is designed to win West-East and nobody can challenge him on that front. He's the best lateral mover in the game; his FH is so heavy that it's very, very difficult to make him really mishit;

What it looks like Higueras has convinced Federer to do is to force opponents into a North-South game. Which on clay is uhhh risky . . . but Federer has managed to do this while only losing a set here and there. Which is amazing on clay.

Forehand_Punisher
06-07-2008, 12:02 PM
Who won over Borg on 1976, 77 and 1982?
Would that help?
McE's Serve-N-Volley...perhaps!
Fed will try that tomorrow...perhaps!

Only person to beat Borg at the French was Adriano Panatta, the eventual champion in 1976. Borg lost in the quarters to him. Borg didn't play in 77 or 82.

2nd_Serve
06-07-2008, 04:01 PM
I've just answered many threads about this topic. And you know, after reading everything, it does seem like it is impossible for Federer to beat Nadal on clay ...

Mick
06-07-2008, 04:07 PM
I've just answered many threads about this topic. And you know, after reading everything, it does seem like it is impossible for Federer to beat Nadal on clay ...

the atptennis.com website has a picture of federer with the caption "mission impossible?" :)

aramis
06-07-2008, 07:52 PM
Bring him up to the net. Every single point. It doesn't matter if it doesn't look good. That's the only chance. It doesn't matter if you hit hard or s/v. As long as you allow Nadal to stay in the back court, you're not going to beat him.

Morrissey
06-07-2008, 08:20 PM
Bring him up to the net. Every single point. It doesn't matter if it doesn't look good. That's the only chance. It doesn't matter if you hit hard or s/v. As long as you allow Nadal to stay in the back court, you're not going to beat him.

You make it sound like Nadal has no say whatsoever on this match, it's all about what Fed does. After a while Nadal will get wise to the drop shot or short ball and just put the ball away. Didn't Wilander say a week ago that Fed had to serve and volley on every point including second serves? I think everyone is just throwing in their 2 cents and just hoping that it sticks. In reality, none of them know what it takes or what is the right idea. If that were the case Nadal would not be one match away from 28-0 at the FO. If Fed is playing his game at Wimby there's no one that can beat him, unless its perhaps a peak Sampras.

luckyguy
06-07-2008, 10:06 PM
i also think fed should serve and volley more, let nadal take his passing shots...a good serve and volleyer will eventually outlast a good baseliner..

flyer
06-07-2008, 10:12 PM
i also think fed should serve and volley more, let nadal take his passing shots...a good serve and volleyer will eventually outlast a good baseliner..

not on clay, not against nadal

flyer
06-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Ok guys well Federer was more agressive, he charged the net! He went for his shots! and.....he committed 3 unforced errors in the first game (handing it to Nadal on a silver platter) and eventually, well you guys get the idea

I do find it interesting that Borg (off all people) today said that he thinks Federer should have been more defensive, more consistent, and prepare to be out there for a long time...almost exactly what I said in the initial post of the thread, and that guys knows a little bit about tennis.

Ronaldo
06-08-2008, 03:09 PM
Ok guys well Federer was more agressive, he charged the net! He went for his shots! and.....he committed 3 unforced errors in the first game (handing it to Nadal on a silver platter) and eventually, well you guys get the idea

I do find it interesting that Borg (off all people) today said that he thinks Federer should have been more defensive, more consistent, and prepare to be out there for a long time...almost exactly what I said in the initial post of the thread, and that guys knows a little bit about tennis.

Hindsight is 20/20, eh?

!Tym
06-08-2008, 03:17 PM
Ok guys well Federer was more agressive, he charged the net! He went for his shots! and.....he committed 3 unforced errors in the first game (handing it to Nadal on a silver platter) and eventually, well you guys get the idea

I do find it interesting that Borg (off all people) today said that he thinks Federer should have been more defensive, more consistent, and prepare to be out there for a long time...almost exactly what I said in the initial post of the thread, and that guys knows a little bit about tennis.

Playing aggressive when it's something you feel *naturally* emanating from within (meaning you're in the zone) is one thing. Clumsily *forcing* aggressive as a gimicy, "sounds good on paper to me since nothing else has never worked" tactic is a recipe for disaster...ESPECIALLY, on clay against one of the top two greatest movers in tennis history (the other being Borg).

Playing Nadal defensively, however, isn't the right strategy either. Basically, it would require a flawless, masterful, once or twice in a lifetime type performance to defeat a potential GOAT on clay in the finals of the French, imo. By masterful I mean that Federer would have to put all his shots and tactics together with a Hingis-like mastery of angles, court sense, timing, opportunity, etc. I think that's a VERY tall order to ask of anyone though against Nadal. I'm not saying it's impossible, but like I said it would take one of Federer's all-time great performances at the EXACT right time. It's like Edberg vs. Courier in the US Open final. I bet if Edberg and Courier had met in the US Open final every year, I'm thinking Courier wins almost every time as I just think his game matched up well with Edberg, BUT Edberg just happened to pick THAT one day to play maybe the best match of his entire career. That kind of combination of *luck* and fortune is imo what it would take for Federer to beat Nadal in the final of the French now.

Ronaldo
06-08-2008, 03:25 PM
Playing aggressive when it's something you feel *naturally* emanating from within (meaning you're in the zone) is one thing. Clumsily *forcing* aggressive as a gimicy, "sounds good on paper to me since nothing else has never worked" tactic is a recipe for disaster...ESPECIALLY, on clay against one of the top two greatest movers in tennis history (the other being Borg).

Playing Nadal defensively, however, isn't the right strategy either. Basically, it would require a flawless, masterful, once or twice in a lifetime type performance to defeat a potential GOAT on clay in the finals of the French, imo. By masterful I mean that Federer would have to put all his shots and tactics together with a Hingis-like mastery of angles, court sense, timing, opportunity, etc. I think that's a VERY tall order to ask of anyone though against Nadal. I'm not saying it's impossible, but like I said it would take one of Federer's all-time great performances at the EXACT right time. It's like Edberg vs. Courier in the US Open final. I bet if Edberg and Courier had met in the US Open final every year, I'm thinking Courier wins almost every time as I just think his game matched up well with Edberg, BUT Edberg just happened to pick THAT one day to play maybe the best match of his entire career. That kind of combination of *luck* and fortune is imo what it would take for Federer to beat Nadal in the final of the French now.

This idea came from a man that won back-to-back FO and Wimbledons. Nuff said, he was/is unique.

Mick
06-08-2008, 03:42 PM
borg had his strategy, federer's coach had his strategy but those strategies would not have worked, when the scores were 6-1, 6-3, 6-0. They could have worked had it been a closer match. this was a blowout.

flyer
06-08-2008, 04:07 PM
Hindsight is 20/20, eh?

i said it before the match, why to look at the date, apparently your hind sight is less than 20/20

flyer
06-08-2008, 04:10 PM
borg had his strategy, federer's coach had his strategy but those strategies would not have worked, when the scores were 6-1, 6-3, 6-0. They could have worked had it been a closer match. this was a blowout.

yeah he wasn't going to win either way i acknowledge that but if nadal had a bad day, he had the wrong strategy

$$$$mony$$$$
06-08-2008, 04:23 PM
i don't know i just think that it's impossible to out nadal nadal cause nadal is a unique player who plays in a way different from everyone else with his spin.

on any other surface besides clay going for your shots works

flyer
06-08-2008, 04:33 PM
i don't know i just think that it's impossible to out nadal nadal cause nadal is a unique player who plays in a way different from everyone else with his spin.

on any other surface besides clay going for your shots works

it might just be impossible, but we don't know because every player tries to be agressive and then proceeds to get their @ss kicked, if anyone can do it its federer and we know being agressive doesn't work for him...it would take the right mind set, tremendous physical conditioning, and belief which federer seems to lack, and lets face it: Nadal to have a terrible day

Nadal_Freak
06-08-2008, 04:54 PM
i don't know i just think that it's impossible to out nadal nadal cause nadal is a unique player who plays in a way different from everyone else with his spin.

on any other surface besides clay going for your shots works
Agreed. If you can out Nadal Nadal, than you should be able to dominate the rest of the field playing Nadal style. Not going to happen.

Ronaldo
06-08-2008, 05:41 PM
i said it before the match, why to look at the date, apparently your hind sight is less than 20/20

Nah, meant Borg. Shame he did not comment on strategy before the match.

Gugafan
06-08-2008, 06:03 PM
Nadal enjoys pace, he can easily redirect the ball playing deep behind the baseline. Neither Djokovic or Federer use vasts amounts of topspin as their safe "rally shot", they prefer to hit the ball flat.

A player like Monfils would be a very interesting matchup for Nadal on clay. He moves exceptionally, and offers little pace looping heavy topspin balls deep particulary on the forehand. As good as Nadal is, he is not the kind of player that can take the ball on the rise and crush balls aired with alot of spin (Something Monfils does very well).

In addition, Monfils serve has abit more heat then Joker and Federer which certainly may allow him to stay in contention.

It would certainly be interesting to see Nadal play a "grinder" who moves just as well as himself e.g Monfils and employ a tactic which involves not trying to hit through Nadal.

morten
06-09-2008, 01:15 AM
solution for Fed: Slice more backhands, attack the net on a more consistant basis..

morten
06-09-2008, 01:15 AM
solution for Fed: Slice more backhands, attack the net on a more consistant basis..

Gorecki
06-09-2008, 01:20 AM
Ask Juan Carlos Ferrero...

Peter Szucs
06-09-2008, 01:48 AM
Fed game is not enough to beat Rafa on clay.

I concur that Fed was aggressive enough.. he simply cannot be with that 1hbh... from there he plays defense and lets rafa control the points.

There is only one way... the Djoko way... serve well, be super aggressive from BOTH sides, take the ball on the rise... and risk. Djoko and Nalbandian both have the game to beat him on clay... Fed doesnt.

Peter Szucs
06-09-2008, 01:50 AM
Bring him up to the net. Every single point. It doesn't matter if it doesn't look good. That's the only chance. It doesn't matter if you hit hard or s/v. As long as you allow Nadal to stay in the back court, you're not going to beat him.

Bring him to the net? ok and how? from 2 meters behind the baseline and streched?? and btw the guy kills every short ball he can have a grip on so he wont need to volley...

Peter Szucs
06-09-2008, 01:57 AM
it might just be impossible, but we don't know because every player tries to be agressive and then proceeds to get their @ss kicked, if anyone can do it its federer and we know being agressive doesn't work for him...it would take the right mind set, tremendous physical conditioning, and belief which federer seems to lack, and lets face it: Nadal to have a terrible day

if you let Rafa play his game he blows you off court from both sides.

lets make this clear... this is not a clay court monkey getting every ball back game anymore... he attacks just as well as defends.

madmanfool
06-09-2008, 02:22 AM
i didn't like Federer's tactis one bit. I don't believe rushing the net is the answer for him. So i'm happy he didn't do that. But i'm very disappointed that all the time, espicially in the first and third set, he was trying to hit hard and deep all the time. That's just suicide in my eyes. Nadal can return those, with interest, all day long. Maybe not when he is exhausted like in Hamburg, but yesterday the commentators said he was like making one unforced error every ten minutes. At least try to make some angles. Someone said Nadal is deadly when you give him angles. There is some truth in that, but he is even more deadly if you hit hard and deep al the time. You can just shake hands now, if you try that. Roger said Rafa was returning very well. Well, guess what Roger, all those big serves you hit trough the middle. Rafa got them back and then what you're going to do. You're both in the middle of the court starting the rally, what you going to do? you haven't pulled him out wide. You can argue that with trying to make angles all the time, he will make tons of errors. True, and i don't think he would have won, but i also believe he wouldn't have been bageled and breadsticked. Do you have any idea how many balls he hit long with his current strategy? I would rather see him make some errors trying an insane angle. At least i would have felt like he tried something.

I don't believe Roger would have ever won that match. He doesn't have the shots on clay, nor the footwork or stamina like Nadal. But tactically he could have done better in my opinion. It was like watching Safin play at times almost. Blasting yet an other ball long and guess what, the next point trying the very same thing.

flyer
06-09-2008, 07:08 AM
Nah, meant Borg. Shame he did not comment on strategy before the match.

he actually said the same thing in a lengthy press conference on saturday, so he did too

flyer
06-09-2008, 07:10 AM
if you let Rafa play his game he blows you off court from both sides.

lets make this clear... this is not a clay court monkey getting every ball back game anymore... he attacks just as well as defends.

i understand nadal will win 95% of the time either way but i don't believe being aggressive gives you the best chance if nadal has a terrible day, because that gives him free errors and easy passing shots which plays right into his hands, you have to break him down and make him beat himself

Nadal_Freak
06-09-2008, 08:26 AM
Nadal enjoys pace, he can easily redirect the ball playing deep behind the baseline. Neither Djokovic or Federer use vasts amounts of topspin as their safe "rally shot", they prefer to hit the ball flat.

A player like Monfils would be a very interesting matchup for Nadal on clay. He moves exceptionally, and offers little pace looping heavy topspin balls deep particulary on the forehand. As good as Nadal is, he is not the kind of player that can take the ball on the rise and crush balls aired with alot of spin (Something Monfils does very well).

In addition, Monfils serve has abit more heat then Joker and Federer which certainly may allow him to stay in contention.

It would certainly be interesting to see Nadal play a "grinder" who moves just as well as himself e.g Monfils and employ a tactic which involves not trying to hit through Nadal.
Almagro was a grinder. He got destroyed. Monfils is weak on the backhand and Nadal would exploit that.

Messarger
06-09-2008, 08:48 AM
^^^^^^^^^

So is David Ferrer, and Nadal broke him at Monte Carlo like it dont mean nothing and besides he got the F.O.

Morrissey
06-09-2008, 09:01 AM
Once again, there is no way. Except blisters. Listen kids maybe you learn something one day.

Ronaldo
06-09-2008, 06:11 PM
he actually said the same thing in a lengthy press conference on saturday, so he did too

I stand corrected. Seems only a great clay courter will be able to implement this strategy.

Peter Szucs
06-10-2008, 03:19 AM
i understand nadal will win 95% of the time either way but i don't believe being aggressive gives you the best chance if nadal has a terrible day, because that gives him free errors and easy passing shots which plays right into his hands, you have to break him down and make him beat himself

its like you have a tiger running towards you and you can either have a gun with 1 bullet or a baseball bat. i would go with the gun, you would go with the bat.:):)

Ronaldo
06-10-2008, 07:41 AM
its like you have a tiger running towards you and you can either have a gun with 1 bullet or a baseball bat. i would go with the gun, you would go with the bat.:):)

Gimme this Louisville Slugger, http://www.johnnyjet.com/images/PicsToUseKYMay2005SluggerMuseumBAT.JPG

TheTruth
06-10-2008, 08:38 AM
Once again, there is no way. Except blisters. Listen kids maybe you learn something one day.

That might be the short answer! Age, blisters, exhaustion, withdrawal. Other than that Nadal is improving daily.

miniRafa386
06-10-2008, 10:09 AM
no.

why do blake, djokovic, nalbandian, berdych, etc. give nadal trouble (not on clay)? because they hit through him. nadal loses to hard hitting, flatter players, not people who play like him. why does nadal DESTROY almagro, verdaso, and others? because they cant play rafa's game as good as he can.

damo0000
06-10-2008, 12:02 PM
Isn't it just simply that theres no one else on the tour as muscular or as strong as him?

I think to beat him they need at least that even before we talk about skills.

brc444
06-10-2008, 07:06 PM
Against Nadal I think Fed should try to hit fairly deep shots. I am surprised how many balls Fed hits against Nadal that don't go beyond the service line. Perhaps part of the problem is that Fed is hitting the ball from so far behind the baseline.