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tennis_hand
06-08-2008, 07:47 AM
clay court player after Bjorn Borg at this moment.

How not to admit! We witnessed that Fed played a horrible match, but despite this, Nadal showed how good he is on the clay. If you don't believe, just look at the angles that he can create during those rallies. If he can surpass Borg's record, he'll be the greatest clay court players ever.

but all of this does not change the fact that he could be passed by Djokovic after Wimbledon in the ranking.

bluescreen
06-08-2008, 07:49 AM
i think most fed fans admit nadal is the better player on clay. i think for sure he's better than borg. but as u say, rafa really does have to watch him self in the coming weeks. if he slips up at wimby, djoker will overtake him.

rommil
06-08-2008, 07:52 AM
clay court player after Bjorn Borg at this moment.

How not to admit! We witnessed that Fed played a horrible match, but despite this, Nadal showed how good he is on the clay. If you don't believe, just look at the angles that he can create during those rallies. If he can surpass Borg's record, he'll be the greatest clay court players ever.

but all of this does not change the fact that he could be passed by Djokovic after Wimbledon in the ranking.

Who is arguing this? Even Rafa says he's still behind Borg.

Morrissey
06-08-2008, 07:53 AM
clay court player after Bjorn Borg at this moment.

How not to admit! We witnessed that Fed played a horrible match, but despite this, Nadal showed how good he is on the clay. If you don't believe, just look at the angles that he can create during those rallies. If he can surpass Borg's record, he'll be the greatest clay court players ever.

but all of this does not change the fact that he could be passed by Djokovic after Wimbledon in the ranking.

Actually, Fed didn't play horrible. Nadal was a GOD today. Fed just witnessed clay court perfection in front of his eyes.

BlahDow
06-08-2008, 07:54 AM
If Nadal can match Borg's # of titles, then I'd put him up over Borg as the best on clay...I mean he only beat who might be the GOAT four consecutive times and only lost THREE sets total in those matches @ RG.

ACE of Hearts
06-08-2008, 07:57 AM
I am waiting for 6 to call him that.If he doesnt win anymore after this, how can u call him the greatest on clay if Borg has 6 and he has 4.

PCXL-Fan
06-08-2008, 07:57 AM
Nadal is superior to Bjorn Borg, but thats only because nutritional science, training and player size has been increasing since the 70s.

If Bjorn Borg was given the opportunity to start his life over from infancy and with todays better understanding of nutritional science, he would likely have grown a little taller, bigger and stronger. And with todays superior training compared to the 70s and the ability to learn to play with todays rackets I think we would have to re-evaluate whether whether Nadal is the best claycourter.

Who is arguing this? Even Rafa says he's still behind Borg.

Have you forgotten that Nadal is immensely humble? Look at his domination and his actual game they will tell the true story. Compare the best 4 year window between Nadal and Borg. Borg didn't dominate the Master Series clay championships like Nadal.

If Nadal had Djokovics personailty he would be saying he's the greatest clay courter ever already.

BlahDow
06-08-2008, 07:59 AM
Nadal is superior to Bjorn Borg, but thats only because nutritional science, training and player size has been increasing since the 70s.

If Bjorn Borg was given the opportunity to start his life over from infancy and with todays better understanding of nutritional science, he would likely have grown a little taller, bigger and stronger. And with todays superior training compared to the 70s and the ability to learn to play with todays rackets I think we would have to re-evaluate whether whether Nadal is the best claycourter.

Well it's not like Nadal is the only one getting bigger stronger faster...EVERYONE is.

Morrissey
06-08-2008, 07:59 AM
I am waiting for 6 to call him that.If he doesnt win anymore after this, how can u call him the greatest on clay if Borg has 6 and he has 4.

Just wait 24 more months. Nadal is on his way to getting it. Even Borg believes it. But Nadal isn't going to lose that grip for a while.

tennis_hand
06-08-2008, 07:59 AM
Nadal is superior to Bjorn Borg, but thats only because nutritional science, training and player size has been increasing since the 70s.

If Bjorn Borg was given the opportunity to start his life over from infancy and with todays better understanding of nutritional science, he would likely have grown a little taller, bigger and stronger. And with todays superior training compared to the 70s and the ability to learn to play with todays rackets I think we would have to re-evaluate whether whether Nadal is the best claycourter.

somehow i agree. Borg's future value will be greater than Nadal's present value.
but in humans, we don't talk about present and future values. ;)

dh003i
06-08-2008, 08:00 AM
clay court player after Bjorn Borg at this moment.

How not to admit! We witnessed that Fed played a horrible match, but despite this, Nadal showed how good he is on the clay. If you don't believe, just look at the angles that he can create during those rallies. If he can surpass Borg's record, he'll be the greatest clay court players ever.

but all of this does not change the fact that he could be passed by Djokovic after Wimbledon in the ranking.

The best clay-courter since the switch from wood, for sure. The greatest clay-court since then for sure. The greatest or best ever? Well, Borg played with wood. How can you make a comparison as for better? He'll be greater than Borg if he wins more FO's.

But as for better, impossible to compare wood vs. modern rackets. It's guess-work. But yea, the greatest ever since the move from wood, for sure, without a doubt.

soyizgood
06-08-2008, 08:01 AM
2 of the last 3 major champs to win the tournament without dropping a set are 2HBHers (Borg and now Nadal). Congratulations, Nadal. I like Federer, but you're the best at silencing those obnoxious *******s. :)

Sarzy
06-08-2008, 08:02 AM
Of course he is better on clay that Federer. I'm a huge Fed fan but I'm not stupid enough to not be able to see that.

CyBorg
06-08-2008, 08:02 AM
Nadal is superior to Bjorn Borg, but thats only because nutritional science, training and player size has been increasing since the 70s.

If Bjorn Borg was given the opportunity to start his life over from infancy and with todays better understanding of nutritional science, he would likely have grown a little taller, bigger and stronger. And with todays superior training compared to the 70s and the ability to learn to play with todays rackets I think we would have to re-evaluate whether whether Nadal is the best claycourter.

Ah, the mystical nutritional science. Just gotta love how the clichees here pile up.

Borg was as fit as anyone in the top-10 today. Period.

srvnvly
06-08-2008, 08:03 AM
I am a HUGE Fed fan and have to agree the Nadal has the potential to be the greatest clay court player of all time; I think he will be but, not quite yet. Awesome job, Rafa!

ACE of Hearts
06-08-2008, 08:03 AM
Nadal is a great player on clay, no doubt about that.I think he would have killed Guga on this stuff.

Morrissey
06-08-2008, 08:06 AM
Nadal is a great player on clay, no doubt about that.I think he would have killed Guga on this stuff.

I agree 100%. Guga was too "up and down" on clay even. He's lucky he never had to run into Nadal during his day. Fed suffered that fate instead. Too bad for him, because if it weren't for Nadal, Fed would have at least 2 FO's. At least.

BlahDow
06-08-2008, 08:08 AM
I agree 100%. Guga was too "up and down" on clay even. He's lucky he never had to run into Nadal during his day. Fed suffered that fate instead. Too bad for him, because if it weren't for Nadal, Fed would have at least 2 FO's. At least.

If it weren't for Federer, Nadal would have two Wimbledons.

CyBorg
06-08-2008, 08:09 AM
Guga beat genuine clay courters at Roland Garros. Roger hasn't.

Roger played an older Guga with a bad hip in 2004 and went down like a ton of bricks.

Morrissey
06-08-2008, 08:10 AM
If it weren't for Federer, Nadal would have two Wimbledons.

that's true as well.

nn
06-08-2008, 08:13 AM
Nadal is greatest on Clay and very very good on other surfaces..2 Wimby final just same as Roddick.. 2-3 semis on hard surfaces (AUS & US OPEN) at age of 22 when Sampras WON his first major...

Roland
06-08-2008, 08:13 AM
Federer didn't play his best but for a small period in the 2nd set, otherwise he played pretty well. How well did Nadal play, 46 winners to 7 unforced errors. You couldn't play better than Nadal did today.

PCXL-Fan
06-08-2008, 08:13 AM
Well it's not like Nadal is the only one getting bigger stronger faster...EVERYONE is.

Reread my post, thats EXACTLY what i said. :p I said the 'players' (hence the plural) are getting bigger.

Ah, the mystical nutritional science. Just gotta love how the clichees here pile up.

Borg was as fit as anyone in the top-10 today. Period.

Sure endurance wise as fit, but not as strong. Just compare the physique of nadal to Borg.

Some of nutritional science is real, not most of it but a small bit of it is real. Training has vastly improved since the 70's thats how tall 6ft8 can now play tennis where as before they were to awkward and tall to be effective on the professional level. Superior training techniques have allowed them to be conditioned into actually being effective on courts.

Size does matter, thats one of the deficits of Davydenko, he just can't hit the ball as hard as the bigger guys.

CyBorg
06-08-2008, 08:16 AM
Some of nutritional science is real, not most of it but a small bit of it is real. Training has vastly improved since the 70's thats how tall 6ft8 can now play tennis where as before they were to awkward and tall to be effective on the professional level. Superior training techniques have allowed them to be conditioned into actually being effective on courts.

What are these techniques? And how could they have made Borg better?

I understand this argument as it pertains to sports like American football and basketball. There's some serious weight training involved.

In tennis weight training is often detrimental. Especially to smaller players like Borg.

noeledmonds
06-08-2008, 08:16 AM
Look at his domination and his actual game they will tell the true story. Borg didn't dominate the Master Series clay championships like Nadal.

Since when have Masters Series been particularly important? Masters Series did not even exist when Borg was playing. Borg has won 2 more French Open titles and thats all that really matters.

Compare the best 4 year window between Nadal and Borg.

Its pretty arbituary to look at a 4 year window. You have to look at their whole careers. Incidentally, Borg's best 4 years are very similar to Nadal's anyway on clay.

CyBorg
06-08-2008, 08:22 AM
Borg at red clay events outside of Roland Garros between 1977 and 1980:

Nice, France
1977 Clay, Draw: 32
R32 Hrebec, Jiri (CZE) N/A 6-2 7-5
R16 Dominguez, Patrice (FRA) N/A 6-2 6-1
Q Prajoux, Belus (CHI) N/A 6-4 6-2
S Pecci Sr., Victor (PAR) N/A 6-3 6-3
W Vilas, Guillermo (ARG) N/A 6-4 1-6 6-2 6-0

Monte Carlo, Monaco
1977 Clay, Draw: 56
R32 Schaller, Gilbert (AUT) 64 6-3 6-3
R16 Amritraj, Vijay (IND) N/A 6-2 6-2
Q Dibbs, Eddie (USA) N/A 6-4 6-2
S Vilas, Guillermo (ARG) N/A 6-2 6-3
W Barazzutti, Corrado (ITA) N/A 6-3 7-5 6-0

Madrid, Spain
1977 Clay, Draw: 64
R64 Norback, Jan (SWE) N/A 6-0 6-1
R32 Prajoux, Belus (CHI) N/A 3-6 6-0 6-1
R16 Andersson, Birger (SWE) N/A 6-4 6-3
Q Higueras, Jose (ESP) N/A 6-2 6-2
S Dibbs, Eddie (USA) N/A 6-2 6-3 6-3
W Fillol Sr., Jaime (CHI) N/A 6-3 6-0 6-7 7-6

Barcelona, Spain
1977 Clay, Draw: 64
R64 Ruiz, Rafael (ESP) N/A 6-0 6-0
R32 Moreno, Jose (ESP) N/A 6-3 4-6 6-4
R16 Pecci Sr., Victor (PAR) N/A 6-2 6-3
Q Higueras, Jose (ESP) N/A 6-0 6-1
S Dibbs, Eddie (USA) N/A 6-0 6-0 6-4
W Orantes, Manuel (ESP) N/A 6-2 7-5 6-2

Rome, Italy
Clay, Draw: 64
1978 R64 Ycaza, Ricardo (ECU) N/A 4-6 6-0 6-2
R32 Deblicker, Eric (FRA) N/A 5-7 6-2 6-0
R16 Tanner, Roscoe (USA) N/A 6-2 6-4
Q Solomon, Harold (USA) N/A 6-2 6-1
S Dibbs, Eddie (USA) N/A 6-4 6-3 6-0
W Panatta, Adriano (ITA) N/A 1-6 6-3 6-1 4-6 6-3

Bastad, Sweden
1978 Clay, Draw: 32
R32 Giammalva, Tony (USA) N/A 6-1 6-0
R16 Carmichael, Bob (AUS) N/A 6-0 6-0
Q Lewis, Chris (NZL) N/A 7-6 6-3
S Munoz, Antonio (ESP) N/A 6-4 6-1
W Barazzutti, Corrado (ITA) N/A 6-1 6-2

Monte Carlo, Monaco
1979 Clay, Draw: 56
R32 Bertolucci, Paolo (ITA) N/A 6-0 6-1
R16 Higueras, Jose (ESP) N/A 6-4 6-4
Q Clerc, Jose-Luis (ARG) N/A 4-6 6-2 6-1
S Pecci Sr., Victor (PAR) N/A 6-4 6-1
W Gerulaitis, Vitas (USA) N/A 6-2 6-1 6-3

Hamburg, Germany
1979 Clay, Draw: 64
R64 Cox, Mark (GBR) N/A 6-1 6-1
R32 Ocleppo, Gianni (ITA) N/A 6-3 7-5
R16 Teltscher, Eliot (USA) N/A 4-1 RET

Bastad, Sweden
1979 Clay, Draw: 32
R32 Freyss, Christophe (FRA) N/A 6-4 6-0
R16 Zugarelli, Antonio (ITA) N/A 6-0 6-1
Q Martin, Billy (USA) N/A 6-0 6-3
S Johansson, Kjell (SWE) N/A 6-3 6-0
W Taroczy, Balazs (HUN) N/A 6-1 7-5

Palermo, Italy
1979 Clay, Draw: 32
R32 Munoz, Antonio (ESP) N/A 6-4 6-0
R16 Gimenez, Angel (ESP) N/A 6-0 4-6 6-1
Q Hjertquist, Per (SWE) N/A 6-2 6-4
S Mottram, Buster C. (GBR) N/A W/O
W Barazzutti, Corrado (ITA) N/A 6-4 6-0 6-4

Nice, France
1980 Clay, Draw: 32
R32 Haillet, Jean-Louis (FRA) N/A 6-0 6-1
R16 Franulovic, Zeljko (CRO) N/A 6-2 6-2
Q McNamara, Peter (AUS) N/A 6-2 6-1
S Luna, Fernando (ESP) N/A 7-5 6-1
W Orantes, Manuel (ESP) N/A 6-2 6-0 6-1

Monte Carlo, Monaco
1980 Clay, Draw: 32
R32 McNamara, Peter (AUS) N/A 6-2 6-2
R16 Lendl, Ivan (USA) N/A 6-2 6-2
Q Clerc, Jose-Luis (ARG) N/A 7-5 6-3
S Gerulaitis, Vitas (USA) N/A 6-0 6-2
W Vilas, Guillermo (ARG) N/A 6-1 6-0 6-2

Nations Cup, Germany
1980 Clay, Draw: 16
RR Alexander, John (AUS) N/A 7-6 6-2
RR Higueras, Jose (ESP) N/A 6-1 6-2
RR Mayer, Gene (USA) N/A 6-3 7-5
S Vilas, Guillermo (ARG) N/A 3-6 6-1 1-6

Two losses over four years. One while he retired when leading.

CyBorg
06-08-2008, 08:23 AM
Its pretty arbituary to look at a 4 year window. You have to look at their whole careers. Incidentally, Borg's best 4 years are very similar to Nadal's anyway on clay.

They are arguably better. Nadal has four losses in four years on red clay. Borg has two.

ACE of Hearts
06-08-2008, 08:24 AM
Borg is still the greatest on clay but Nadal is knocking on his door.Can u imagine a match between these 2?The impressive thing about Nadal is his ability to cover the court on clay.

BigT
06-08-2008, 08:25 AM
Nadal is greatest on Clay and very very good on other surfaces..2 Wimby final just same as Roddick.. 2-3 semis on hard surfaces (AUS & US OPEN) at age of 22 when Sampras WON his first major...

Sampras won his first major at 19......

Legend of Borg
06-08-2008, 08:37 AM
If it weren't for Federer, Nadal would have two Wimbledons.

If it weren't for Nadal, Federer would have three French Open titles. The list goes on and on.

jrstrat
06-08-2008, 08:52 AM
i think most fed fans admit nadal is the better player on clay. i think for sure he's better than borg. but as u say, rafa really does have to watch him self in the coming weeks. if he slips up at wimby, djoker will overtake him.

Is there a chance that djoker will overtake him at some point this year? yes. Is Nadal also well positioned to overtake Federer and finish #1 by the end of the year? You bet. He has a 100 pt lead over Djoker and over a 200 point lead on Federer in the race rankings.

The 3 way race for #1 at the end of this year is going to be very interesting this year. Anyone who thinks otherwise does not follow tennis much.

Pancho
06-08-2008, 09:24 AM
I predict Nadal will be #1 in the world this year. Nadal's massive topspin will kill anyone on clay - period. You just have to get him injured to have him lose! Nadal is invincible on clay!

BlahDow
06-08-2008, 09:55 AM
I predict Nadal will be #1 in the world this year. Nadal's massive topspin will kill anyone on clay - period. You just have to get him injured to have him lose! Nadal is invincible on clay!

Ya his topspin dominates clay...but clay is over with now ;D

flyer
06-08-2008, 09:57 AM
I am waiting for 6 to call him that.If he doesnt win anymore after this, how can u call him the greatest on clay if Borg has 6 and he has 4.

good point, you can say Nadal is the most dominant, but can't say hes the greatest quite yet

Mansewerz
06-08-2008, 10:01 AM
LOL anyone that disagrees with the OP is delusional.

rommil
06-08-2008, 10:03 AM
Nadal is superior to Bjorn Borg, but thats only because nutritional science, training and player size has been increasing since the 70s.

If Bjorn Borg was given the opportunity to start his life over from infancy and with todays better understanding of nutritional science, he would likely have grown a little taller, bigger and stronger. And with todays superior training compared to the 70s and the ability to learn to play with todays rackets I think we would have to re-evaluate whether whether Nadal is the best claycourter.



Have you forgotten that Nadal is immensely humble? Look at his domination and his actual game they will tell the true story. Compare the best 4 year window between Nadal and Borg. Borg didn't dominate the Master Series clay championships like Nadal.

If Nadal had Djokovics personailty he would be saying he's the greatest clay courter ever already.
Nadal is humble and realistic, most of these people are. THey know what they go through. So if I were to chose between whose assessment I would believe between Nadal or you,....well you know the answer.

iamke55
06-08-2008, 10:14 AM
Borg is still the greatest on clay but Nadal is knocking on his door.Can u imagine a match between these 2?The impressive thing about Nadal is his ability to cover the court on clay.

Yes I can imagine a 6-0 6-0 6-0 easily. The 300 Spartans had the best kill to death ratio of any army in history while the American military is pretty dominant today, can you imagine a battle between the two?

noeledmonds
06-08-2008, 11:00 AM
Yes I can imagine a 6-0 6-0 6-0 easily. The 300 Spartans had the best kill to death ratio of any army in history while the American military is pretty dominant today, can you imagine a battle between the two?

This is hardly a suitable analogy. Obviously Nadal would beat Borg if Nadal had modern equipment while Borg was still using an old wooden racket. However, if they met on tour then we are presuming that they are playing in the same era, and so are bought up with the same equipment and under similar conditions.

edberg505
06-08-2008, 11:38 AM
Nadal is greatest on Clay and very very good on other surfaces..2 Wimby final just same as Roddick.. 2-3 semis on hard surfaces (AUS & US OPEN) at age of 22 when Sampras WON his first major...

When exactly did this happen. As far as I know he has only been to the semi of 1 hardcourt slam.