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rich s
07-25-2008, 05:40 AM
Bought a new racquet this week. Haven't strung it yet.

Was wondering if you string new racquets or racquets with new grommet sets 2 lbs tighter than you normally would in order to seat the grommets?

thanks-

Ljubicic for number1
07-25-2008, 05:49 AM
I wouldn't suggest it. Unnecessary in my opinion.

consistency wins
07-25-2008, 06:04 AM
I've never done that. Yulite may come along and offer some sound advice. He strings a lot more than most of us here...

Stan
07-25-2008, 06:17 AM
Yes. The oldtimers will tell you it is common practice to increase the tension by a couple of pounds when seating grommets.

Loco4Tennis
07-25-2008, 07:21 AM
i really dont see the benefit of increasing just to seat the grommets
after all the 30, 40, 50, 60 lbs of pressure that you use is gonna do the trick, that ammount of pressure is alredy more than enough to push a grommet through the hole

Booyah
07-25-2008, 11:09 AM
Yeah ive never added any lbs to seat the grommets. Ive just never really though about it, its seems to me that if you are tensioning your string in order to make it the tension you want the grommets will get seated.

Bud
07-25-2008, 11:13 AM
Bought a new racquet this week. Haven't strung it yet.

Was wondering if you string new racquets or racquets with new grommet sets 2 lbs tighter than you normally would in order to seat the grommets?

thanks-

No need...

Richie Rich
07-25-2008, 12:19 PM
don't increase tension, just watch when stringing to make sure the grommets don't fall back into the grommet hole. this seems to happen on the corner (10,1,5,7 o clock area). after 2 stringings the grommets are pretty much set and you won't have to worry about this.

Valjean
07-25-2008, 03:21 PM
I've always done it; seems to help maintain tension continuity. And I do measure for it, too.

Stan
07-25-2008, 06:33 PM
Knowledge of stringing nuances is what separates the solid stringers from the wannabees. Valjean has earned my respect as he is the only one who apparently understands the value of adding a couple of pounds when stringing virgin grommets.

Richie Rich
07-25-2008, 07:24 PM
Knowledge of stringing nuances is what separates the solid stringers from the wannabees. Valjean has earned my respect as he is the only one who apparently understands the value of adding a couple of pounds when stringing virgin grommets.

just because "it's always been done that way" is not a valid reason.

so enlighten us, what is the "value" of increasing the tension by a couple lbs? i've strung many new racquets without doing this and never had any issues. i'm genuinely interested in the answer, since if i'm doing something wrong i'd like to know :lol:

Stan
07-26-2008, 04:46 AM
See http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=34446
and specifically look at the post by the late Gaines Hillix.

Richie Rich
07-26-2008, 09:09 AM
^^^ Thanks. But stringing at regular tension will do the same thing just fine, which has been my point all along.

if someone wants to use a couple extra lbs, depending on how anal they are, go ahead. there just isn't a need to do it.

Richard Parnell
07-26-2008, 11:06 AM
I have always strung new frames 1 kg (2 lbs) tighter. The grommets need seating and the string bites into the plastic of the strip. All these little movements of the string equate to 1 kg. I have always strung for players this way (ATP Players) and have never once had them throw one back. I was taught this by Lucien Nogues (head of Babolat competition stringing) and he used the same technique and he was stringing on the tour for 17 years. If this practice was not necessary the players would have complained that the job had come out tight. I have never had one player say that to me and neither has Lucien.
I have been using the technique for the last 20 years and hopefully I'll use it for the next 20.
All the best,
Richard

Il Mostro
07-26-2008, 11:24 AM
I am curious as to how/why this works since tension is a relative thing. I understand the basic concept of, for example, bumping the tension from a desired target of 55 pounds to 57 pounds to help seat the grommets. But let's say another player likes the tension at 58 pounds on the same model racquet, so tension is bumped to 60 pounds to seat the grommets.

Since the end tension is purely a relative thing and will vary from player to player, how exactly does increasing the tension help? So if I were to follow this rule and usually string at 53 and then bump to 55, how is this different than not adding the 2 pounds to my first example (55 to 57 pounds)? I am not trying to argue any particular point here, I just do not understand how going 2 pounds over anything but a *specific* tension would have the desired effect. Can someone explain?

Stan
07-26-2008, 11:57 AM
Look guys, it is relatively simple. Stringing is both an art and a science. The experienced stringers posting here are sharing their knowledge and experiences for the purpose of allowing newer stringers to learn. If the young guns are not open to hearing and learning from the experience of the veterans, there is no way to force feed it. Those of us with real experiences are sharing the art of stringing as well as science. The grommet seating, as I stated earlier, is a method that seasoned/experienced stringers tend to use. Take it or leave it...up to you, but realize the top-level stringers tend to seat the grommets when new.

Il Mostro
07-26-2008, 12:01 PM
Look guys, it is relatively simple. Stringing is both an art and a science. The experienced stringers posting here are sharing their knowledge and experiences for the purpose of allowing newer stringers to learn. If the young guns are not open to hearing and learning from the experience of the veterans, there is no way to force feed it. Those of us with real experiences are sharing the art of stringing as well as science. The grommet seating, as I stated earlier, is a method that seasoned/experienced stringers tend to use. Take it or leave it...up to you, but realize the top-level stringers tend to seat the grommets when new.

So I am guessing the "art" part of the equation is what cannot be logically and rationally explained.... I would love a straight answer as to why going +2 over *any* tension works to seat the grommets. I'm sure there's an answer out there...especially since is "relatively simple". :-)

LoveThisGame
07-26-2008, 12:25 PM
I recall, hopefully correctly :), that Pete Sampras had new frames or frames with new grommets strung with simple nylon followed by cutting out the strings and stringing with his gut.

Bud
07-26-2008, 12:37 PM
Knowledge of stringing nuances is what separates the solid stringers from the wannabees. Valjean has earned my respect as he is the only one who apparently understands the value of adding a couple of pounds when stringing virgin grommets.

just because "it's always been done that way" is not a valid reason.

so enlighten us, what is the "value" of increasing the tension by a couple lbs? i've strung many new racquets without doing this and never had any issues. i'm genuinely interested in the answer, since if i'm doing something wrong i'd like to know :lol:

I am curious as to how/why this works since tension is a relative thing. I understand the basic concept of, for example, bumping the tension from a desired target of 55 pounds to 57 pounds to help seat the grommets. But let's say another player likes the tension at 58 pounds on the same model racquet, so tension is bumped to 60 pounds to seat the grommets.

Since the end tension is purely a relative thing and will vary from player to player, how exactly does increasing the tension help? So if I were to follow this rule and usually string at 53 and then bump to 55, how is this different than not adding the 2 pounds to my first example (55 to 57 pounds)? I am not trying to argue any particular point here, I just do not understand how going 2 pounds over anything but a *specific* tension would have the desired effect. Can someone explain?

Exactly, Il Mostro. This is why it makes no sense and is not needed.

Bud
07-26-2008, 12:40 PM
Look guys, it is relatively simple. Stringing is both an art and a science. The experienced stringers posting here are sharing their knowledge and experiences for the purpose of allowing newer stringers to learn. If the young guns are not open to hearing and learning from the experience of the veterans, there is no way to force feed it. Those of us with real experiences are sharing the art of stringing as well as science. The grommet seating, as I stated earlier, is a method that seasoned/experienced stringers tend to use. Take it or leave it...up to you, but realize the top-level stringers tend to seat the grommets when new.

Sorry, not buying the art/science argument. It sounds like someone's personal idiosyncracy that's been passed down, needlessly.

Bud
07-26-2008, 12:49 PM
I recall, hopefully correctly :), that Pete Sampras had new frames or frames with new grommets strung with simple nylon followed by cutting out the strings and stringing with his gut.

Yes, this would definitely seat the grommets. Although, any normal stringjob will also seat them, effectively. But, stringing 2 lbs. over some random/unknown tension will not seat the grommets any more effectively.

For instance, let's assume I like my racquets strung at 38 lbs. Do some of you think that stringing at 40 lbs. will act to seat the grommets any more effectively than the 38 lb. tension?

Also, if a friend has his racquet initially strung at 70 lbs... Since his base tension is 30 lbs higher than my 'grommet seating tension' of 40 lbs. wouldn't that then seat the grommets with no need to go up to 72 lbs.? See the logic?

Now, if the knowledge base stated... all newly grommetted racquets should be initially strung at 65 lbs with nylon... then cut out and restrung... to seat the grommets... that argument would hold water since it's consistent across all frames.

Il Mostro
07-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Bud, you and I are on exactly the same wavelength. Since there is no absolute tension stated for seating the grommets, I do not understand how x+2 does anything special so long as x is a moving target.

Bud
07-26-2008, 01:03 PM
Bud, you and I are on exactly the same wavelength. Since there is no absolute tension stated for seating the grommets, I do not understand how x+2 does anything special so long as x is a moving target.

Yep. Logically, it makes no sense.

tenis
07-26-2008, 01:11 PM
I always string a new racquet or new grommets tighter, becouse of grommets "sitting" - see also my post approx. month ago. Not too many stringers do that, except the masters. The young guns have to learn more (sometime they are way too much arrogant).

Rob_C
07-26-2008, 01:12 PM
Bud, you and I are on exactly the same wavelength. Since there is no absolute tension stated for seating the grommets, I do not understand how x+2 does anything special so long as x is a moving target.

I think what it means, as previous posts imply, is that with new grommets, ur string job will feel about two lbs looser, than broken in grommets.

So, say u normally string a racket at 60, it'll feel like 58 lbs with the new grommets, if u can tell a couple lbs difference in tension.

The grommets will be seated either way, just feel a little looser. By the next string job everything should be fine.

Bud
07-26-2008, 01:27 PM
I think what it means, as previous posts imply, is that with new grommets, ur string job will feel about two lbs looser, than broken in grommets.

So, say u normally string a racket at 60, it'll feel like 58 lbs with the new grommets, if u can tell a couple lbs difference in tension.

The grommets will be seated either way, just feel a little looser. By the next string job everything should be fine.

This depends on the type of stringing machine used. A constant pull or dropweight will just keep pulling until the grommets are seated. So, perhaps you are correct if referring to a lockout type machine.

Bud
07-26-2008, 01:28 PM
I always string a new racquet or new grommets tighter, becouse of grommets "sitting" - see also my post approx. month ago. Not too many stringers do that, except the masters. The young guns have to learn more (sometime they are way too much arrogant).

It has nothing to do with arrogance. No one who strings 2+ more on newly grommetted racquets can explain logically why it is more effective. It has nothing to so with art, old masters or young guns.

Stan
07-26-2008, 01:54 PM
Way too many close minded dualistic thinkers here. Let us know when you evolve to a contextual way of knowing and reasoning and then we can have an enlightened conversation. Until such a time (many years likely) it is fine to do and believe whatever you please. No one is twisting anyone's arm, just stating the way EXPERIENCED stringers would respond to the OP's question.

diredesire
07-26-2008, 03:00 PM
In my experience, I've received no complaints from stringing +2 lbs on new grommets. i recommend it to the coaches I work with, and they are A-OK with it. IMO, Stan and RP are the guys that are speaking strictly from experience. I'm not talking about a few dozen racquets every year for a few years, these guys are stringing hundreds and hundreds of frames, and are stringing at a very high level.

IMO, you guys are getting it a little wrong, it's not that a +2 lbs job is better at seating grommets, and it's not doing it more effectively, the technique in question is SIMPLY a compensation for the grommets settling.

Kevo
07-26-2008, 03:23 PM
I get the Pete Sampras thing. It makes a lot of sense if you're using gut. The nylon would not just seat the grommets, but would create the nice smooth edges in the plastic that aren't there on the first stringing. Then when the gut goes in it would not get chewed up as much.

As for the 2 extra pounds on the first stringing, I doubt it's going to do much for a constant pull string job with a poly. If you're using a soft multi, or using a lockout, I could see it making a difference.

With a CP machine, the tension is going to stay on the string while the grommet relaxes. After you're done stringing, the tension isn't going to get any higher, only lower so they won't relax much more unless they are really hard plastic which can not fully deform at 50-60lbs. Of course once you start hitting the tension keeps going down as well.

So, I'd be interested to see some data, but in any case if I get a fresh strung frame I'd rather it be 2lbs. tight than 2lbs. loose, so for my frames it would probably be a safe thing to do.

I think this is one of the things I like about woofer grommets. They hold up much better than typical grommets because of those smooth curved woofers are built into the strips already. There's not as much plastic deformation, and the string doesn't have to make it's own smooth curves.

Bud
07-26-2008, 05:02 PM
Way too many close minded dualistic thinkers here. Let us know when you evolve to a contextual way of knowing and reasoning and then we can have an enlightened conversation. Until such a time (many years likely) it is fine to do and believe whatever you please. No one is twisting anyone's arm, just stating the way EXPERIENCED stringers would respond to the OP's question.

What a bunch of meaningless verbiage... close-minded dualistic thinkers... contextual way of knowing and reasoning?

When you use words/phrases like this, please expound (relate back to specific points, etc.)

It's interesting that you state that experienced stringers do this 2 lb. over technique... but can't explain why they do it. Do you always do things without asking questions or wonder why you do them?

Finally, when someone calls you on it and asks for a logical reason/explanation you resort to phrases like... close-minded dualistic thinkers... and contextual way of knowing and reasoning :roll:

Basically, this tells me... you have no clue why the +2 lbs. is important... whether it effectively seats grommets... you've not noticed any significant difference since you didn't offer your personal experience as evidence.

Bud
07-26-2008, 05:05 PM
In my experience, I've received no complaints from stringing +2 lbs on new grommets. i recommend it to the coaches I work with, and they are A-OK with it. IMO, Stan and RP are the guys that are speaking strictly from experience. I'm not talking about a few dozen racquets every year for a few years, these guys are stringing hundreds and hundreds of frames, and are stringing at a very high level.

IMO, you guys are getting it a little wrong, it's not that a +2 lbs job is better at seating grommets, and it's not doing it more effectively, the technique in question is SIMPLY a compensation for the grommets settling.

Thank you DD. This is more what I was looking for. As I stated in another post above... this would also depend on the stringing machine. On a constant pull, this would not be necessary. On a lockout... I can see a small benefit since it would give that little extra pull and take up any slack between grommet strip and frame.

Il Mostro
07-26-2008, 06:00 PM
Yep, this is a clear answer that makes sense.

Gimmick
07-26-2008, 06:13 PM
We need to think past the tension of stringing alone. When the player uses the racquet the grommet experiences 58-60lb + the force of the STROKE. The stroke then causes additional seating of string in the new grommet strip. To have the desired tension on the string not just fresh off the stringer but after a couple minutes of use, you should add 2 lbs to a new grommet strip.

Or don't, and ignore common sense, experience, and the advice of the better stringers on this board (not neccessarily me).

Richie Rich
07-26-2008, 06:16 PM
Way too many close minded dualistic thinkers here. Let us know when you evolve to a contextual way of knowing and reasoning and then we can have an enlightened conversation. Until such a time (many years likely) it is fine to do and believe whatever you please. No one is twisting anyone's arm, just stating the way EXPERIENCED stringers would respond to the OP's question.

Sorry, not buying the art/science argument. It sounds like someone's personal idiosyncracy that's been passed down, needlessly.

Bud - my point exactly. probably one of those things that has been passed down from wood racquet stringers who are "all in the know".

what a load of BS. + 2 lbs to seat grommets? give me a break.

do it if you want. whatever turns your crank. bottom line - you DON'T NEED TO. but if you want to, it's all up to personal preference. there is no harm either way. don't let someone tell you 2 lbs makes a difference. grommets will seat just fine at 58 lbs vs 60 lbs.

Rob_C
07-26-2008, 07:39 PM
Bud - my point exactly. probably one of those things that has been passed down from wood racquet stringers who are "all in the know".

what a load of BS. + 2 lbs to seat grommets? give me a break.

do it if you want. whatever turns your crank. bottom line - you DON'T NEED TO. but if you want to, it's all up to personal preference. there is no harm either way. don't let someone tell you 2 lbs makes a difference. grommets will seat just fine at 58 lbs vs 60 lbs.

At the risk of continuing the argument, I dont think they're really saying the grommets will seat better +2 lbs, I think they're saying the intial string job will feel about 2 lbs looser than a 'broken in' set of grommets would feel.

Stan
07-26-2008, 08:06 PM
I hope this will be my final post on this topic.

If you take a racquet that has been strung one or more times and string it at tension X (insert your own tension here!) and measure the stringbed stiffness on the RDC or ERT, you will get a reading of Y. If you then replace the grommets on the racquet, restring it with no other variables (ie same string, tension, pattern, etc) you will almost always get a reading of Y minus 2, 3, or 4. In order to generate a final stringbed stiffness with new grommets, (remember, consistency is what we strive for!) then increasing the tension approx. 2 pounds will often land you closer to where you want to be (the original Y variable) than not adding 2 pounds of tension.

Why is this? Honestly I don't need to know, as long as I know it happens. Why does my wife's car get better gas mileage in the summer with the windows down instead of the air conditioning on when my car gets better mileage with the air on and windows up? You know what??? It doesn't matter as long as I understand that it does. Why does the blue raspberry snow cone turn my son's tongue blue for a significantly longer period of time than my daughters? I don't know why, but it just does. I believe that observational/contextual data is under appreciated in many venues, but I for one value the real-world experiences and knowledge and always try to learn from direct observation.

Someday someone may be able to identify the science behind the gas mileage variances, snow cone colors and even why the extra two pounds of tension with new grommets helps make stringbed stiffness consistent. Until such time, I am more than content with knowing what direct observations have revealed.

diredesire
07-26-2008, 11:31 PM
Thank you DD. This is more what I was looking for. As I stated in another post above... this would also depend on the stringing machine. On a constant pull, this would not be necessary. On a lockout... I can see a small benefit since it would give that little extra pull and take up any slack between grommet strip and frame.

Yes, it is a little more machine dependent, however, you also assume grommets settle in a (very) short amount of time, which in my personal experience isn't the case. I've seen in numerous cases that grommets are molded with slight "imperfections" or tapered ridges that tend to flatten over time (along with the grooves on the outside of the grommets). I can't quantify how long it takes for these edges/ridges to wear down (i.e. get flattened), but I've seen them hold up for more than one string job, and eventually smooth out and fall into place.

We need to think past the tension of stringing alone. When the player uses the racquet the grommet experiences 58-60lb + the force of the STROKE. The stroke then causes additional seating of string in the new grommet strip. To have the desired tension on the string not just fresh off the stringer but after a couple minutes of use, you should add 2 lbs to a new grommet strip.

Or don't, and ignore common sense, experience, and the advice of the better stringers on this board (not neccessarily me).
I think it is a true statement that hitting (and time) will eventually pull down a grommet/bumper guard down to the frame much better than a single tension pull. I've replaced a ton of bumper sets in my time, and I've only seen a very select few really settle in and behave nicely. This of course can be aided by heat guns and/or boiling methods (don't ask), but due to the molding of these plastic pieces, I tend to think that this procedure does take time.

Bud - my point exactly. probably one of those things that has been passed down from wood racquet stringers who are "all in the know".

what a load of BS. + 2 lbs to seat grommets? give me a break.

do it if you want. whatever turns your crank. bottom line - you DON'T NEED TO. but if you want to, it's all up to personal preference. there is no harm either way. don't let someone tell you 2 lbs makes a difference. grommets will seat just fine at 58 lbs vs 60 lbs.
Yes, of course it's not necessary. IMO, as long as you (the stringer) are consistent, it's better than the hacky jobs you'll find at a sports chalet or something similar. It's also not necessary to weave one ahead, but besides it being easier for the stringer, it also is a little easier on the string. This is one of those "last 5%" adjustments that I feel sets apart a good stringer from a stringer that "just knows what (s)he is doing".

However, I won't state that it is NECESSARY, just do what you do every time. IMO, I feel that a 2 lb (rough estimate) tension bump renders a string job closer to the reference point that you're trying to achieve, which is really what this is all about.

Richie Rich
07-27-2008, 03:22 AM
now that i have re-read the posts, there is a point that i have missed.

i can see + 2lbs on a new grommet strip to get the right reference tension - if the person is anal and would notice. i have never noticed any difference but that's just me.

+ 2 lbs to seat the grommet on the frame - still totally unnecessary IMO

Bud
07-27-2008, 05:26 AM
now that i have re-read the posts, there is a point that i have missed.

i can see + 2lbs on a new grommet strip to get the right reference tension - if the person is anal and would notice. i have never noticed any difference but that's just me.

+ 2 lbs to seat the grommet on the frame - still totally unnecessary IMO

I agree... this makes more sense than the 'seating the grommets' argument.

But, don't the experts state that a racquet strinbed loses like 10%+ of its initial tension within 24 hours (and this is without hitting with the racquet).

diredesire
07-27-2008, 08:50 AM
I agree... this makes more sense than the 'seating the grommets' argument.

But, don't the experts state that a racquet strinbed loses like 10%+ of its initial tension within 24 hours (and this is without hitting with the racquet).

The point is that you approach the same reference, regardless of a 10% drop. I'm not sure of the point that you're trying to make here. The purpose and job of the stringer is to give a consistent string bed to the customer. If all strings lose ~10% of their tension, the reference tension we are trying to hit is 10% less than what the customer specifies. This is completely normal, as we're only trying to achieve the same string bed "feel"/stiffness. The idea here is that on top of the 10% drop, the rule of thumb is that the string bed will experience approximately 2 lbs of a drop via the grommets/bumper deforming and/or wearing down and fully seating.

So, where are these stringbed stiffness readings you speak of? Has anyone conducted tests with the 2 lb. extra tension and measured stringbed stiffness before and after grommet replacement? If so, where are they published.

IMO, if i were to guess, measuring the stringbed shortly after stringign would yield a higher tension in the newly grommeted stringbed. I think the merit of this practice is achieved over a short break in period of playing. This is just my opinion and "educated guess" based on my real world experiences. I honestly do think that grommets aren't seated necessarily on the machine, and that it does take some time. Recording the data would only be useful if you did so across the life of the string job A/B with the same frame (eliminating frame to frame differences). This is hard if not impossible to do while eliminating all other variables.

Mansewerz
07-27-2008, 09:38 AM
I hope this will be my final post on this topic.

If you take a racquet that has been strung one or more times and string it at tension X (insert your own tension here!) and measure the stringbed stiffness on the RDC or ERT, you will get a reading of Y. If you then replace the grommets on the racquet, restring it with no other variables (ie same string, tension, pattern, etc) you will almost always get a reading of Y minus 2, 3, or 4. In order to generate a final stringbed stiffness with new grommets, (remember, consistency is what we strive for!) then increasing the tension approx. 2 pounds will often land you closer to where you want to be (the original Y variable) than not adding 2 pounds of tension.

Why is this? Honestly I don't need to know, as long as I know it happens. Why does my wife's car get better gas mileage in the summer with the windows down instead of the air conditioning on when my car gets better mileage with the air on and windows up? You know what??? It doesn't matter as long as I understand that it does. Why does the blue raspberry snow cone turn my son's tongue blue for a significantly longer period of time than my daughters? I don't know why, but it just does. I believe that observational/contextual data is under appreciated in many venues, but I for one value the real-world experiences and knowledge and always try to learn from direct observation.

Someday someone may be able to identify the science behind the gas mileage variances, snow cone colors and even why the extra two pounds of tension with new grommets helps make stringbed stiffness consistent. Until such time, I am more than content with knowing what direct observations have revealed.

Yes, it is a little more machine dependent, however, you also assume grommets settle in a (very) short amount of time, which in my personal experience isn't the case. I've seen in numerous cases that grommets are molded with slight "imperfections" or tapered ridges that tend to flatten over time (along with the grooves on the outside of the grommets). I can't quantify how long it takes for these edges/ridges to wear down (i.e. get flattened), but I've seen them hold up for more than one string job, and eventually smooth out and fall into place.


I think it is a true statement that hitting (and time) will eventually pull down a grommet/bumper guard down to the frame much better than a single tension pull. I've replaced a ton of bumper sets in my time, and I've only seen a very select few really settle in and behave nicely. This of course can be aided by heat guns and/or boiling methods (don't ask), but due to the molding of these plastic pieces, I tend to think that this procedure does take time.


Yes, of course it's not necessary. IMO, as long as you (the stringer) are consistent, it's better than the hacky jobs you'll find at a sports chalet or something similar. It's also not necessary to weave one ahead, but besides it being easier for the stringer, it also is a little easier on the string. This is one of those "last 5%" adjustments that I feel sets apart a good stringer from a stringer that "just knows what (s)he is doing".

However, I won't state that it is NECESSARY, just do what you do every time. IMO, I feel that a 2 lb (rough estimate) tension bump renders a string job closer to the reference point that you're trying to achieve, which is really what this is all about.

now that i have re-read the posts, there is a point that i have missed.

i can see + 2lbs on a new grommet strip to get the right reference tension - if the person is anal and would notice. i have never noticed any difference but that's just me.

+ 2 lbs to seat the grommet on the frame - still totally unnecessary IMO

That's all it took to settle down the argument. I think this was more a case of misunderstanding than ignorance/arrogance.

The true reason was to reach a similar reference!

Loco4Tennis
07-28-2008, 09:19 AM
thanks to the OP for asking this question, it made me aware of this issue
i am a new stringer, but i require the "why?" something is done for my own personal curiosity
in this link posted above and here, is what i beleive to be the reason for the 2lbs increase, mentioned by "mooseryan"
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=34446
the reason is as simple as his answer in my opinion, the grommet plastic need to flex arround the racquet, and the riggidity of the material is what the 2lbs higher are trying to compensate
the "grommet seating" term like above mentioned is being misunderstood, its not a matter of just getting the holes to line up and through the other side, but also to make the grommet strips "stay put", once the tension is removed from them,
in my opinion if you did not increase the 2lbs, the rigid plastic would try to flex to its original shape (straight), and thus reduse tension by how ever riggid the plastic piece is (unknown to me), also emntioend above 2lbs seems to be a good general number to compensate for this
2lbs difference while is not a change many new players would be able to feel, constant players like many here that are used to a certain tension would be able to
now that i think i know the why, i will use it and explain it when i ever i am asked

Kevo
07-28-2008, 11:45 AM
in my opinion if you did not increase the 2lbs, the rigid plastic would try to flex to its original shape (straight), and thus reduse tension by how ever riggid the plastic piece is (unknown to me)

If the rigid plastic could resist stringing by "trying" to return to it's original shape, then that would actually raise the tension.

The critical question is how much tension does it take to fully deform the grommet strip. If that number is higher than the reference tension, then you might need to raise tension a little to allow for the settling in that could occur once the new strings are hit with. If the number is lower than the reference tension, you'll just end up with a 2lb. higher string job, which most people will not notice without something to compare to.

YULitle
07-28-2008, 12:02 PM
now that i have re-read the posts, there is a point that i have missed.

i can see + 2lbs on a new grommet strip to get the right reference tension - if the person is anal and would notice. i have never noticed any difference but that's just me.

+ 2 lbs to seat the grommet on the frame - still totally unnecessary IMO

That pretty much summarizes how I feel after reading through this thread. Now, I'm not chiming in to pile on or assert authority as there are obviously many well informed and experienced people doing just that. This is just how I feel about it, and I would bet some of you would be able to guess without me posting it. Be that as it may, here I go.

Doing it forever (raising tension 2/3/4/X lbs,) and not having anyone notice is only proof of one of two things. It either DOES help compensate for the new grommets settling, as the proponents of the practice suggest, OR it simply confirms, yet again, that the vast majority of players (pros and amateurs alike) can't tell the difference in two pounds of tension.

Either way, the way I feel about adjusting tension for this and that has always been that it's complete and utter BS. The VAST VAST VAST majority of people who get their racquets strung have NO CLUE about their tension, string, etc... They use their racquets long after the string is dead, making the tension it was strung at initially irrelevant and I consider it a huge waste of time to delve over the many eccentricities of stringing to help them pinpoint an attribute that will become such. I have ZERO patience for such mental exercises when they will never lead to ANY results. This level of fine tuning should be reserved ONLY for pros OR amateurs that get their racquets strung at LEAST once for every 2-4 hours of play.

So here's the rule of thumb. Try it. Like it? Do it again.

Bud
07-28-2008, 05:07 PM
That pretty much summarizes how I feel after reading through this thread. Now, I'm not chiming in to pile on or assert authority as there are obviously many well informed and experienced people doing just that. This is just how I feel about it, and I would bet some of you would be able to guess without me posting it. Be that as it may, here I go.

Doing it forever (raising tension 2/3/4/X lbs,) and not having anyone notice is only proof of one of two things. It either DOES help compensate for the new grommets settling, as the proponents of the practice suggest, OR it simply confirms, yet again, that the vast majority of players (pros and amateurs alike) can't tell the difference in two pounds of tension.

Either way, the way I feel about adjusting tension for this and that has always been that it's complete and utter BS. The VAST VAST VAST majority of people who get their racquets strung have NO CLUE about their tension, string, etc... They use their racquets long after the string is dead, making the tension it was strung at initially irrelevant and I consider it a huge waste of time to delve over the many eccentricities of stringing to help them pinpoint an attribute that will become such. I have ZERO patience for such mental exercises when they will never lead to ANY results. This level of fine tuning should be reserved ONLY for pros OR amateurs that get their racquets strung at LEAST once for every 2-4 hours of play.

So here's the rule of thumb. Try it. Like it? Do it again.

Agreed....

diredesire
07-28-2008, 05:26 PM
That pretty much summarizes how I feel after reading through this thread. Now, I'm not chiming in to pile on or assert authority as there are obviously many well informed and experienced people doing just that. This is just how I feel about it, and I would bet some of you would be able to guess without me posting it. Be that as it may, here I go.

Doing it forever (raising tension 2/3/4/X lbs,) and not having anyone notice is only proof of one of two things. It either DOES help compensate for the new grommets settling, as the proponents of the practice suggest, OR it simply confirms, yet again, that the vast majority of players (pros and amateurs alike) can't tell the difference in two pounds of tension.

Either way, the way I feel about adjusting tension for this and that has always been that it's complete and utter BS. The VAST VAST VAST majority of people who get their racquets strung have NO CLUE about their tension, string, etc... They use their racquets long after the string is dead, making the tension it was strung at initially irrelevant and I consider it a huge waste of time to delve over the many eccentricities of stringing to help them pinpoint an attribute that will become such. I have ZERO patience for such mental exercises when they will never lead to ANY results. This level of fine tuning should be reserved ONLY for pros OR amateurs that get their racquets strung at LEAST once for every 2-4 hours of play.

So here's the rule of thumb. Try it. Like it? Do it again.

I have to chime in on the mental part: I think the mental aspect is a big factor in this discussion. I will tell a player beforehand if I want to bump two lbs, and if they aren't comfortable with it, I will avoid doing so. Simply put: a player doesn't want to have to doubt their equipment, and the utility of a stringer is to avoid them having to do so. (Hence my constant pushing towards consistency!) I will tell a player "I am going to change your bumper guard. Usually I like to bump the tension up by two lbs so the grommet strip will settle in at the tension you actually want." I won't try and explain anything further. If they don't want to proceed (which has happened to me a few times), I won't bother to do so.

tenis
07-28-2008, 07:09 PM
It has nothing to do with arrogance. No one who strings 2+ more on newly grommetted racquets can explain logically why it is more effective. It has nothing to so with art, old masters or young guns.
Did you get it???

Richard Parnell
07-28-2008, 10:33 PM
That pretty much summarizes how I feel after reading through this thread. Now, I'm not chiming in to pile on or assert authority as there are obviously many well informed and experienced people doing just that. This is just how I feel about it, and I would bet some of you would be able to guess without me posting it. Be that as it may, here I go.

Doing it forever (raising tension 2/3/4/X lbs,) and not having anyone notice is only proof of one of two things. It either DOES help compensate for the new grommets settling, as the proponents of the practice suggest, OR it simply confirms, yet again, that the vast majority of players (pros and amateurs alike) can't tell the difference in two pounds of tension.

Either way, the way I feel about adjusting tension for this and that has always been that it's complete and utter BS. The VAST VAST VAST majority of people who get their racquets strung have NO CLUE about their tension, string, etc... They use their racquets long after the string is dead, making the tension it was strung at initially irrelevant and I consider it a huge waste of time to delve over the many eccentricities of stringing to help them pinpoint an attribute that will become such. I have ZERO patience for such mental exercises when they will never lead to ANY results. This level of fine tuning should be reserved ONLY for pros OR amateurs that get their racquets strung at LEAST once for every 2-4 hours of play.

So here's the rule of thumb. Try it. Like it? Do it again.

Change of tension for this and that is utter BS !!.No comment. I am rather surprised that you talk about pro's that can't tell the difference of 2 lbs. I would suggest (respectfuly)you keep to what you have experience with.Have you ever serviced the racquet for a professional player ? There is a reason for players asking to have their frames strung the same morning as pick up. The reason being that they can notice the difference of 2 lbs or less just from the tension loss. Why do professional players sometimes kick back a frame and ask for 1 lb less.
Believe it or not, adding 2 lbs for a new set of grometts works, I and many other tour stringers have used this for years and if it were an unnecessary eccentricity or "utter BS" as you put it then we would have stopped using it as we also analyse our actions. I have used this practice on top 10 players ( with its subsequent SB deflection test) and to say that they can't tell a difference of 2 lbs just shows your lack of contact with tour stringing.

My rule of thumb is : string for an amateur the way you would string for the worlds best player. I do it and IT WORKS.
All the best,
Richard

Rob_C
07-28-2008, 10:49 PM
Change of tension for this and that is utter BS !!.No comment. I am rather surprised that you talk about pro's that can't tell the difference of 2 lbs. I would suggest (respectfuly)you keep to what you have experience with.Have you ever serviced the racquet for a professional player ? There is a reason for players asking to have their frames strung the same morning as pick up. The reason being that they can notice the difference of 2 lbs or less just from the tension loss. Why do professional players sometimes kick back a frame and ask for 1 lb less.
Believe it or not, adding 2 lbs for a new set of grometts works, I and many other tour stringers have used this for years and if it were an unnecessary eccentricity or "utter BS" as you put it then we would have stopped using it as we also analyse our actions. I have used this practice on top 10 players ( with its subsequent SB deflection test) and to say that they can't tell a difference of 2 lbs just shows your lack of contact with tour stringing.

My rule of thumb is : string for an amateur the way you would string for the worlds best player. I do it and IT WORKS.
All the best,
Richard

In his defense, he said the vast majority of players. I really doubt he was referring to pro players, but the majority of players in general. The 3.5s, 4.0s of the world. Not the Nadals and Federers.

YULitle
07-29-2008, 03:32 AM
Change of tension for this and that is utter BS !!.No comment. I am rather surprised that you talk about pro's that can't tell the difference of 2 lbs. I would suggest (respectfuly)you keep to what you have experience with.Have you ever serviced the racquet for a professional player ? There is a reason for players asking to have their frames strung the same morning as pick up. The reason being that they can notice the difference of 2 lbs or less just from the tension loss. Why do professional players sometimes kick back a frame and ask for 1 lb less.
Believe it or not, adding 2 lbs for a new set of grometts works, I and many other tour stringers have used this for years and if it were an unnecessary eccentricity or "utter BS" as you put it then we would have stopped using it as we also analyse our actions. I have used this practice on top 10 players ( with its subsequent SB deflection test) and to say that they can't tell a difference of 2 lbs just shows your lack of contact with tour stringing.

My rule of thumb is : string for an amateur the way you would string for the worlds best player. I do it and IT WORKS.
All the best,
Richard

In his defense, he said the vast majority of players. I really doubt he was referring to pro players, but the majority of players in general. The 3.5s, 4.0s of the world. Not the Nadals and Federers.

I'm definitely including some pro players. My personal experience is that, while more prevalent with pros (I assume,) the ability to discern between small changes in tension is not heavily related to tennis skill. Those who know, typically ask, and the rest are vetted through typical questioning. The rest, which is the VAST majority, have no clue. I would sooner explain the different values of shoes to a quadriplegic than work out the finer points in tension adjustment for a player that won't get their racquet restrung for another year. It's an absolute waste of time.

Now, I have the luxury of not having to deal with such people anymore (in a retail environment, at least.) Having to explain why I would give less attention to someone's racquet than someone else's is NOT something I would like to do. Being in the retail environment, I absolutely agree that all racquets should be treated with the same care as you would your best and/or most stringent customer's.

However, my initial assessment stands. The amount of adjusting that I hear about on these boards for this and that is BS. I simply cannot get behind it. When I here of people saying, "I've just got a new racquet, I'm getting it strung with poly on a crank. Should I lower my tension 20%?" I just have to scream. This is a *******ization of the rule and I can only assume that it wasn't fully explained to that person. Could it be lowered? Sure. SHOULD IT BE LOWERED? Not unless you want to. People have it in their head that there is some intrinsic value in abiding by these rules, when there just isn't (for them, especially.) They don't understand that the rules are suggestions and starting points. I just can't get behind the level of scrutiny some people put into what matters least to their game when most of them can't tell the difference anyway.

Richard Parnell
07-29-2008, 05:36 AM
I would agree with 99 % of what you have said. There are things that are a matter of feel and thus no real correct or wrong way of doing things, but "if you like it, do it" as you so rightly put it. Generalities can be misleading.However in this case it is not a matter of feel but something that is trying to take out a variable ( any good stringer strives for consistency).
I can't understand why you would want to explain to the player what you are going to do or have done. No need !! he will soon tell you if there is a problem.
That is the nice thing with working with Pros as they feel everything and its your job to translate what they feel to action on your part. Sergi Bruguera could pick a 1 grm heavier frame out of a batch of 12.
All the best,
Richard

Il Mostro
07-29-2008, 05:38 AM
^^^ You forgot to add "It's stringing, not brain surgery". Well put YUlitle.

YULitle
07-29-2008, 05:51 AM
I would agree with 99 % of what you have said. There are things that are a matter of feel and thus no real correct or wrong way of doing things, but "if you like it, do it" as you so rightly put it. Generalities can be misleading.However in this case it is not a matter of feel but something that is trying to take out a variable ( any good stringer strives for consistency).
I can't understand why you would want to explain to the player what you are going to do or have done. No need !! he will soon tell you if there is a problem.
That is the nice thing with working with Pros as they feel everything and its your job to translate what they feel to action on your part. Sergi Bruguera could pick a 1 grm heavier frame out of a batch of 12.
All the best,
Richard

That may be our differences. I have only ever had one customer with whom I could have meaningful conversations about any such issues. This person could tell the difference. Not only could he tell, but it actually mattered because he got his sticks strung frequently. It makes no difference to me if a person can tell the difference alone. They also need to have the ability to restring as warranted. If you can tell the difference between 21.5 and 22, that doesn't matter if you only string once a year. I'm going to give the same care in stringing every single racquet, and with a consistency that I think rivals most stringers. I'm psychotically consistent at times. But when it comes to discussions on tension that go to this level of accuracy, few players benefit.

Richard Parnell
07-29-2008, 06:12 AM
I use what I do on the tour as my standard for my clients in my shop. You may have only had 1 client who could tell the difference, I have literally had thousands of players who can feel the difference. Once it got to how many players would you consider taking note of this small change in technique?, 2,4, 10??Someone mentioned that it wasn't brain surgery (not very helpful to the discussion), it isn't but there is a correct way of doing things, whether it be mopping the floor or stringing a racquet.
All the best,
Richard

Bud
07-29-2008, 12:19 PM
Did you get it???

Did I get what? :-?

Bud
07-29-2008, 12:25 PM
That may be our differences. I have only ever had one customer with whom I could have meaningful conversations about any such issues. This person could tell the difference. Not only could he tell, but it actually mattered because he got his sticks strung frequently. It makes no difference to me if a person can tell the difference alone. They also need to have the ability to restring as warranted. If you can tell the difference between 21.5 and 22, that doesn't matter if you only string once a year. I'm going to give the same care in stringing every single racquet, and with a consistency that I think rivals most stringers. I'm psychotically consistent at times. But when it comes to discussions on tension that go to this level of accuracy, few players benefit.

I use what I do on the tour as my standard for my clients in my shop. You may have only had 1 client who could tell the difference, I have literally had thousands of players who can feel the difference. Once it got to how many players would you consider taking note of this small change in technique?, 2,4, 10??Someone mentioned that it wasn't brain surgery (not very helpful to the discussion), it isn't but there is a correct way of doing things, whether it be mopping the floor or stringing a racquet.
All the best,
Richard

Perhaps someone can provide the link to the study concerning tension/stringbed stiffness. If I recall, very few pros could feel a difference of up to 10 lbs.

If anyone has that link and could post it, I'd like to refresh my memory with the results.

Richard Parnell
07-29-2008, 01:00 PM
Perhaps someone can provide the link to the study concerning tension/stringbed stiffness. If I recall, very few pros could feel a difference of up to 10 lbs.

If anyone has that link and could post it, I'd like to refresh my memory with the results.

Can`t tell the difference of 10 lbs. We obviously work with different pros from one another. The test is a simple one.string a frame and then repeat the same process with same string and same frame only having put in new grometts. Take a stringbed reading and you have the results for yourself.

All the best,
Richard

TenniseaWilliams
07-29-2008, 03:06 PM
Perhaps someone can provide the link to the study concerning tension/stringbed stiffness. If I recall, very few pros could feel a difference of up to 10 lbs.

If anyone has that link and could post it, I'd like to refresh my memory with the results.

Sorry Bud, I don't have a link to the the actual study, but here is a
.pdf summary from Sports Medicine of Australia Is Racket Tension feel a "myth"? (http://www.sma.org.au/mediareleases/pdfmediareleases/2003%2001%2021%20-%20Tennis%20-%20Is%20Racket%20Tension%20Feel%20a%20Myth.pdf).
The study hasn't changed my opinion yet, it featured 41 satellite players using a racquet unfamiliar to them, no mention of string type, etc.

I believe new grommets make the stringbed looser, bump +2 lbs. Does it matter if someone can tell the difference? (although I believe a percentage can) There is no downside or extra effort bumping the tension a few lbs on new racquets/grommet sets. If accuracy +- 5 lbs really doesn't matter, then no harm is done. If that (or any other) fine tuning is below the ability of an individual user to detect, it is possible that it might still be helping them.

muggy
07-29-2008, 09:28 PM
bump up 1 pound and call it even...

I figure most people here could tell a 2 pound difference on newly strung rackets hitting back to back...in between stringings I'm not so sure...

Bud
07-30-2008, 09:35 AM
"Player Sensitivity to Changes in String Tension in a Tennis Racket" from Journal of Science and Medicine in Sport.


Abstract:

"Forty-one advanced recreational tennis players were tested to determine their ability to detect differences in string tension in a tennis racket.

Subjects were given pairs of rackets that varied in tension by up to 98 N (10 kg) (22 lbs.) and were asked whether they noticed a difference in tension
and if so, which racket was strung at a higher tension.

Only 11 (27%) of those tested could correctly identify a tension difference of 5 kg (11 lb) or less.

Fifteen (37%) could not pick a difference of 10 kg (22 lb)."

Continuing:

"To examine the importance of sound as a means of discrimination, an additional test was undertaken where participants wore earplugs. Of the 26 subjects undertaking this additional test:

only 6 (23%) were successful.

It was concluded that advanced recreational tennis players demonstrated limited ability to correctly identify differences in string tension and that impact sound was an important factor for those participants who were successful at various levels of discrimination."

---

Bottom line... if you're stringing for professional players, since they MAY be sensitive to a 2 lb. difference... the extra tension on new grommets may be warranted.

Bud
07-30-2008, 09:37 AM
bump up 1 pound and call it even...

I figure most people here could tell a 2 pound difference on newly strung rackets hitting back to back...in between stringings I'm not so sure...

The study above states the opposite of what you 'figure'.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 09:44 AM
^^^ That's what I'm talking about. :D

There are those who CAN. But, they are in the minority.

Richard Parnell
07-30-2008, 11:34 AM
I`ll carry on stringing for the minority.
Richard

Valjean
07-30-2008, 01:09 PM
^^^ That's what I'm talking about. :D

There are those who CAN. But, they are in the minority.
I'm not sure what this is about, now; would you argue similarly over whether to alternate mains, say? Who could tell then, too? Raising the tension 2 lbs. on new grommets is a USRSA-recommended tip or technique; which other of their tips and techniques do you oppose, and would you say so to the institution that rated you so well, using the claim that it only matters when the client can tell, and expect to be approved in doing that?

YULitle
07-30-2008, 01:11 PM
I'm not sure what this is about, now; would you argue similarly over whether to alternate mains, say? Who could tell then, too? Raising the tension 2 lbs. on new grommets is a USRSA-recommended tip or technique; which other of their tips and techniques do you oppose, and would you say so to the institution that rated you so well, using the claim that it only matters when the client can tell, and expect to be approved in doing that?

There is a difference between internal and external consistency. That and, like Richard said (which I agree with,) you string every racquet like it's for a pro. But, when it comes to discussing the fine tuning, I don't think many players benefit from it. There are other aspects, IMO, that are more important.

EDIT: Let me put it this way. In golf, there is a fitting process for all golf clubs, and depending on which there is a different process. It takes a skilled fitter who is knowledgeable in the way of the swing to give a good fitting. It also takes a skilled metal worker to physically work the clubs to the fitter's specifications. Now, there are a few businesses that will fit your clubs for you, but not everyone benefits. What the fitting does is adjust the length of the club and the lie of the club face. Now, that's in irons and it's more complicated than that, but the basic idea is that you are fitting the club to the players swing. However, a large portion of golfers don't have a consistent enough swing to truly warrant a fitting. There are people who will tell you otherwise, but most pros that I've talked with agree that not everyone benefits from a truly in-depth club fitting. That's not to say that they won't give it their best shot and adjust the clubs properly, but it's frustrating to try and fit someone who isn't swinging consistently. You're basically trying to hit a moving target. I find, that it's even worse in tennis, but that may be some sort of personal spotlight bias.

Jerry Seinfeld
07-30-2008, 01:28 PM
I am with Richard. I take a tremendous amount of pride in my stringing. When a customer picks up a racquet from my shop they know they are getting a first-rate string job. No shortcuts. Their racquet gets every bit as much care and attention as any professional's would. Does not matter if they are a beginner or a pro...it will be done to the highest quality standard. It does not matter one iota to me if they can or cannot distinguish a difference of 1 or 22 pounds...if my diagnostic equipment shows a deviation that does not meet my standards, it's going to be restrung until the standard is met. Afterall it has my name on it and it is simply not leaving my shop unless it meets my standards. That's what my customers pay for and that is what they get.

In my shop not increasing tension on new grommets generally will force a restringing to occur, because the stringbed deflection reading is not within my +/- 1 window of acceptable tolerance.

As for the study, I have seen it before and I would like the writers to be more specific in their definition of "advanced recreational tennis players." What the heck is that supposed to mean? I guarantee that at least 9/10 of my 4.0's would easily notice a tension variance of 22 pounds. Maybe a lower percentage would recognize a 10 pound difference, but certainly more than 27%.

The bottom line is that consistency is paramount and a good stringer will never underestimate their customer's ability to distinguish stellar from average.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 01:30 PM
There is a difference between internal and external consistency. That and, like Richard said (which I agree with,) you string every racquet like it's for a pro. But, when it comes to discussing the fine tuning, I don't think many players benefit from it. There are other aspects, IMO, that are more important.

In fact all players may never know how they may actively "benefit" from certain techniques usually considered professional, and which help encourage consistency in play. I've just never heard anyone say before that at least some of these can and should be waived/slighted/ignored in their entirety until someone alert says he can tell they're not being observed.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 01:31 PM
I am with Richard. I take a tremendous amount of pride in my stringing. When a customer picks up a racquet from my shop they know they are getting a first-rate string job. No shortcuts. Their racquet gets every bit as much care and attention as any professional's would. Does not matter if they are a beginner or a pro...it will be done to the highest quality standard. It does not matter one iota to me if they can or cannot distinguish a difference of 1 or 22 pounds...if my diagnostic equipment shows a deviation that does not meet my standards, it's going to be restrung until the standard is met. Afterall it has my name on it and it is simply not leaving my shop unless it meets my standards. That's what my customers pay for and that is what they get.

In my shop not increasing tension on new grommets generally will force a restringing to occur, because the stringbed deflection reading is not within my +/- 1 window of acceptable tolerance.

As for the study, I have seen it before and I would like the writers to be more specific in their definition of "advanced recreational tennis players." What the heck is that supposed to mean? I guarantee that at least 9/10 of my 4.0's would easily notice a tension variance of 22 pounds. Maybe a lower percentage would recognize a 10 pound difference, but certainly more than 27%.

The bottom line is that consistency is paramount.

The bold portions can be true, as I believe in them as well, without the rest.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 01:40 PM
"Originally posted by Yulitle:

There is a difference between internal and external consistency. That and, like Richard said (which I agree with,) you string every racquet like it's for a pro. But, when it comes to discussing the fine tuning, I don't think many players benefit from it. There are other aspects, IMO, that are more important."

In fact all players may never know how they may actively "benefit" from certain techniques usually considered professional, and which help encourage consistency in play. I've just never heard anyone say before that at least some of these can and should be waived/slighted/ignored in their entirety until someone alert says he can tell they're not being observed.

I think I am being grossly miss-understood. I am not talking about cutting corners at all. I'm talking about the tension decision process. When someone comes to me, buys a new racquet, new string, I'm not going to go into to great a detail discussing whether or not he should go with 52 or 54. It's, IMO, a waste of time. I'll advise him as to the difference, but he won't know it until he tries it. For those who come in with a base to work on, these conversations have merit. But for those who just got a new racquet, new string, haven't restrung in a year or more, I'm not going to waste my time asking them how they would like to change the way their racquet plays, because they either don't know because it's new OR they let the current string job degrade to the point where darn near anything will play better than the fish net he's got. That doesn't mean we don't discuss string type, or generalities of tension. I just refuse to get into details with someone who has no base to compare it against or someone who only cares about it once a year. If you think I'm not asking questions to figure this all out, your wrong. If you think that I'm somehow stringing more poorly for less experienced players, your DEAD wrong. Don't miss-read what I'm saying. Every racquet I've ever strung has gotten top notch service. I don't do short cuts and I think the 3400+ posts of mine show my resentment to people who do.

My issue is, and was from the start, the amount of benefit people receive in discussion of fine-tuning tension. My view is that there are much more important matters to discuss and that most people do not benefit in debating over a difference of 2 lbs of tension when they 1) don't have a base to compare and 2) get a new racquet/string.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm not sure whether a 2 lbs. tension increase, when it's to compensate for something else, requires such an abstract, heavy-duty discussion. For instance, at least two contributors provide you with simple ways to bring up the two lbs. increase and so to ease the angst you have. I'm also concerned that your depression over who after all can discuss these things on a sufficiently technical level, and what to do about it, is affecting you too much. For instance, what's your solution when you anticipate and/or are asked to deal with tension changes for surface differences, altitude, and seasonal change? These all can typically involve 2 lbs. changes. Are you stymied then too? Do you do, or recommend, them or not?

But by the way--is it your view that a 2 lbs. tension increase when grommets are renewed should be recommended or performed, and does that depend on whether you feel you can bring it up to the one qualified or involved or not?

YULitle
07-30-2008, 02:53 PM
I'm not sure whether a 2 lbs. tension increase, when it's to compensate for something else, requires such an abstract, heavy-duty discussion. For instance, at least two contributors provide you with simple ways to bring up the two lbs. increase and so to ease the angst you have. I'm also concerned that your depression over who after all can discuss these things on your level, and what to do about it, is affecting you too much. For instance, what's your solution when you anticipate and/or are asked to deal with tension changes for surface differences, altitude, and seasonal change? These all can typically involve 2 lbs. changes. Are you stymied then too? Do you do, or recommend, them or not?

It's not that I don't understand how easy it is to adjust for this. I also understand why someone might.

You may have a point about the depression, but it's not what I'm getting at here. I hope to explain that by addressing your last point.

The hundreds of possible adjustments, of which you names a few, are only for people who have a base. Meaning, if someone came to me, bought new racquet/string, said "I'll be playing in Denver, should I adjust my tension for the high altitude?" My response would be, "adjust from what?" He doesn't even have a base to adjust from. Most of the posts I see on this forum involve this exact problem. People want to adjust for cranks even though they've not had their racquets strung on a CP before. They want to adjust for everything when they have little to base it on. That's why I shy away from most posts about string choice and tension choice. It's alarming to me that when someone says, "I'm a 4.0, I have a LM Radical OS and I want to put FXP in it. What tension should I string it at?" because I (perhaps errantly) assume that they think that there is a right answer to that question. You see what I mean? There's no use discussing all of this if they have nothing to base it on. Also, I have a problem with "sure shot" adjustments. The 2+ adjustment is good for what? high tensions? low tensions? all tensions? It's all just a starting point. But people treat it like it's a science and that bothers me, because all of these adjustments are just starting points.

Now, that's not to say that there is no value in doing the same adjustment all the time, via a ballpark like 2+, due to it's likelyhood of acceptance. But let's not kid ourselves. We aren't tuning rockets and engines.

Also, people who don't get their racquets restrung frequently, obviously don't care so much about how their racquet feels. That doesn't mean that I won't string it with the same care as I do everyone else. But, that does mean that I have less patience for a half hour discussion over the differences between 52 and 54 lbs when the majority of the time the raquet will be played with the strings will be dead and gone (and this has happened to me, often.)

YULitle
07-30-2008, 02:57 PM
But by the way--is it your view that a 2 lbs. tension increase when grommets are renewed should be recommended or performed, and does that depend on whether you feel you can bring it up to the one qualified or involved or not?

I would recommend this to someone, though I'd be more hesitant with someone who I know won't be back for a year, or someone who has changed strings and is looking for a different feel anyway. I feel confident in my ability to explain to someone why it might be beneficial, but I'd feel ridiculous telling someone that it would help mimic the same results they got when they got their racquet strung a year ago.

Bud
07-30-2008, 03:12 PM
I think I am being grossly miss-understood. I am not talking about cutting corners at all. I'm talking about the tension decision process. When someone comes to me, buys a new racquet, new string, I'm not going to go into to great a detail discussing whether or not he should go with 52 or 54. It's, IMO, a waste of time. I'll advise him as to the difference, but he won't know it until he tries it. For those who come in with a base to work on, these conversations have merit. But for those who just got a new racquet, new string, haven't restrung in a year or more, I'm not going to waste my time asking them how they would like to change the way their racquet plays, because they either don't know because it's new OR they let the current string job degrade to the point where darn near anything will play better than the fish net he's got. That doesn't mean we don't discuss string type, or generalities of tension. I just refuse to get into details with someone who has no base to compare it against or someone who only cares about it once a year. If you think I'm not asking questions to figure this all out, your wrong. If you think that I'm somehow stringing more poorly for less experienced players, your DEAD wrong. Don't miss-read what I'm saying. Every racquet I've ever strung has gotten top notch service. I don't do short cuts and I think the 3400+ posts of mine show my resentment to people who do.

My issue is, and was from the start, the amount of benefit people receive in discussion of fine-tuning tension. My view is that there are much more important matters to discuss and that most people do not benefit in debating over a difference of 2 lbs of tension when they 1) don't have a base to compare and 2) get a new racquet/string.

Agreed. It has nothing to do with cutting corners.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 03:13 PM
I agree--let's not kid ourselves about it. And several times now since I said that at the onset it's been suggested that a 2 lb. tension increase for new grommet sets has been measured and that it's pretty good at reproducing/restoring an original tension then. And it seems to me that politely asking permission, as we do for many things about stringing for another person, is as good a way to handle it as any--if it has to be done. Surely your people trust you, when they return. What are you so worried about? That there's some sort of suit in the offing if you do? Why do you seem to think you have to have approval for everything you do, to the point that even a USRSA-approved lab technique must be farmed out/agreed to/soliloquy-ed over?

YULitle
07-30-2008, 03:18 PM
I agree--let's not kid ourselves about it. And several times now since I said that at the onset it's been suggested that a 2 lb. tension increase for new grommet sets has been measured and that it's pretty good at reproducing/restoring an original tension then. And it seems to me that politely asking permission, as we do for many things about stringing for another person, is as good a way to handle it as any. What are you so worried about? That there's some sort of suit in the offing if you do? Why do you seem to think you have to have approval for everything you do, to the point that even a USRSA-approved lab technique must be farmed out/agreed to/soliloquy-ed over?

I don't fear asking out of need for permission. I loathe asking when I know it doesn't matter. And, in my experience, it often doesn't matter. I am well equipped to handle the savvy players concerns when switching most variables in order to reproduce previous results, but those tools can only be properly used in certain conditions. I have run across those very little. I understand that it's probably the complete opposite for a pro stringer, where their clients have the same string/racquet/tension every time, and expect their racquets to play the same day in and day out. But they have the luxury of both being able to get their racquets strung frequently (thereby making these adjustments more valid) and the ability to tell the difference in the first place.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 03:21 PM
Agreed. It has nothing to do with cutting corners.
No? It has to do with foregoing proven useful practices for maintaining tension that have USRSA approval then, and hiding behind others as the excuse for doing that; what else do you call it? Where's professionalism in it all?

diredesire
07-30-2008, 03:21 PM
I would recommend this to someone, though I'd be more hesitant with someone who I know won't be back for a year, or someone who has changed strings and is looking for a different feel anyway. I feel confident in my ability to explain to someone why it might be beneficial, but I'd feel ridiculous telling someone that it would help mimic the same results they got when they got their racquet strung a year ago.

I have to half agree with both of your above posts. I think many people misunderstand that there is such a thing as a 'reference' tension. I find many people new to stringing (or those that don't care to really understand the point of stringing) tend to think in terms of an absolute tension. I also found that your example of "what tension should I string this at" is a very good one! You point out that there is no right answer, and that is exactly how I feel.

Your point about compensating for a crank to CP hit home for me in particular. I find it amusing that people want to compensate on a crank to string like a CP, especially if they aren't GOING to be stringing on a CP, or commonly use a crank. I think the hivemind approach to stringing is if I string at 60 lbs on a CP, it's "better" than 60 lbs on a crank. Now, there may be some inherent improvement in tension loss by stringing on a crank, but the end result is simply a firmer string bed. You compensate and adjust accordingly. Simple to understand, I'd think. However, once you start introducing numbers people tend to go a little nutso.

Another question is: How to you deal with people that don't GET it? For instance, lets say you are at a shop and you string with a NEOS. A customer from out of state comes in and requests a string job. "Sure thing," you say. You have a leisurely discussion and you find out that the user comes from "X" shop one state over, where they string on Babolat Star 5s. Lets say this user normally gets their frames strung at "Max" recommended tension, and doesn't want to void his/her warranty by going over. However, on a NEOS, you know that the string job will feel "10%" looser (another widely accepted rule of thumb in the stringing industry). What do you do? Do you try to explain it to him/her? Do you string it + 10% without him/her knowing because you know it will feel closer to what they (REALLY) want? Or do you just follow what they ask for and give them what they ask, at the risk of them hitting poorly and deeming you an incompetent stringer? (Note, this is an open question for anyone to answer, I'm curious to hear your guys' opinons!)

I think the above scenario gets a little complicated, as RP said, you odn' thave to bother explaining everything to people, sometimes it drives them crazy! (at least, that's how i interpreted his response above). I do often let players know about adjustments, as I believe in full disclosure, but what do you guys (and girls) think?

I find your last point above particularly interesting. If someone comes to me infrequently and wants their racquet restrung, it is true they probably won't even remember how their racquet FELT a year ago. I don't think this disqualifies them from having the overall string job perform the same as it did before (prior to a grommet switch), so I will go ahead and bump +2. I'm not claiming in any way that this is a scientific compensation, I use it as a rule of thumb and I understand that a reference is achieved (theoretically) by doing so. I'm not trying to nail it, I'm trying to stay as close as possible and match myself if possible.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 03:30 PM
I don't fear asking out of need for permission. I loathe asking when I know it doesn't matter. And, in my experience, it often doesn't matter. I am well equipped to handle the savvy players concerns when switching most variables in order to reproduce previous results, but those tools can only be properly used in certain conditions. I have run across those very little. I understand that it's probably the complete opposite for a pro stringer, where their clients have the same string/racquet/tension every time, and expect their racquets to play the same day in and day out. But they have the luxury of both being able to get their racquets strung frequently (thereby making these adjustments more valid) and the ability to tell the difference in the first place.
If it isn't likely to "matter" to the one involved, yet we know it can restore the tension he asked for and that you initially installed, why not add the two lbs. anyhow? You aren't jeopardizing a player, only helping him out. Can you foresee being given such authority to act in his behalf when he needs more than he knows? And why would any act this minor need prior approval to begin with? Is this you, the people you deal with, what?

YULitle
07-30-2008, 03:33 PM
If it isn't likely to "matter" to the one involved, yet we know it can restore the tension he asked for and that you initially installed, why not add the two lbs. anyhow? You aren't jeopardizing a player, only helping him out. Can you foresee being given such authority to act in his behalf when he needs more than he knows? And why would any act this minor need prior approval to begin with? Is this you, the people you deal with, what?

My issue isn't the approval. My issue is the obsession of people with whom it makes little difference. These long, unnecessary discussions are not of my doing.

Bud
07-30-2008, 03:39 PM
These long, unnecessary discussions are not of my doing.

Yeah they are :lol:

It's all your fault, YULitle.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 03:40 PM
I have to half agree with both of your above posts. I think many people misunderstand that there is such a thing as a 'reference' tension. I find many people new to stringing (or those that don't care to really understand the point of stringing) tend to think in terms of an absolute tension. I also found that your example of "what tension should I string this at" is a very good one! You point out that there is no right answer, and that is exactly how I feel.

Your point about compensating for a crank to CP hit home for me in particular. I find it amusing that people want to compensate on a crank to string like a CP, especially if they aren't GOING to be stringing on a CP, or commonly use a crank. I think the hivemind approach to stringing is if I string at 60 lbs on a CP, it's "better" than 60 lbs on a crank.
I agree totally!

Now, there may be some inherent improvement in tension loss by stringing on a crank, but the end result is simply a firmer string bed. You compensate and adjust accordingly. Simple to understand, I'd think. However, once you start introducing numbers people tend to go a little nutso.

Another question is: How to you deal with people that don't GET it? For instance, lets say you are at a shop and you string with a NEOS. A customer from out of state comes in and requests a string job. "Sure thing," you say. You have a leisurely discussion and you find out that the user comes from "X" shop one state over, where they string on Babolat Star 5s. Lets say this user normally gets their frames strung at "Max" recommended tension, and doesn't want to void his/her warranty by going over. However, on a NEOS, you know that the string job will feel "10%" looser (another widely accepted rule of thumb in the stringing industry). What do you do? Do you try to explain it to him/her? Do you string it + 10% without him/her knowing because you know it will feel closer to what they (REALLY) want? Or do you just follow what they ask for and give them what they ask, at the risk of them hitting poorly and deeming you an incompetent stringer? (Note, this is an open question for anyone to answer, I'm curious to hear your guys' opinons!)
If during the course of my standard "leisurely discussion" I find reason to make an adjustment, I will offer up the idea, explain why and more or less say that I'm going to do it.


I think the above scenario gets a little complicated, as RP said, you odn' thave to bother explaining everything to people, sometimes it drives them crazy! (at least, that's how i interpreted his response above). I do often let players know about adjustments, as I believe in full disclosure, but what do you guys (and girls) think?

I find your last point above particularly interesting. If someone comes to me infrequently and wants their racquet restrung, it is true they probably won't even remember how their racquet FELT a year ago. I don't think this disqualifies them from having the overall string job perform the same as it did before (prior to a grommet switch), so I will go ahead and bump +2. I'm not claiming in any way that this is a scientific compensation, I use it as a rule of thumb and I understand that a reference is achieved (theoretically) by doing so. I'm not trying to nail it, I'm trying to stay as close as possible and match myself if possible.
This is where we disagree. I don't feel it's necessary to go to great lengths to recreate how the racquet felt a year ago. Now, one adjustment is obviously not "great lengths." But, I'm not going to delve too deeply into what obviously matters very little to the player. And I'm not talking, it doesn't matter because he won't notice. I'm say, it doesn't matter TO HIM. Meaning, he doesn't care or, doesn't understand that his (in)actions make it impossible for him to discern the difference. Making a knee-jerk reaction and adjusting out of habit is one thing, but going the extra mile for someone who doesn't care about the way his equipment plays seems, to me, to be a waste of time.


responses in bold

Valjean
07-30-2008, 03:50 PM
My issue isn't the approval. My issue is the obsession of people with whom it makes little difference. These long, unnecessary discussions are not of my doing.
Avoid them, then. These aren't tension changes, you'd just be restoring an original number. If you need reassurance to embolden you, get a tension measuring device so you can be certain what you've done.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 03:56 PM
Avoid them, then. These aren't tension changes, you'd just be restoring an original number. If you need reassurance to embolden you, get a tension measuring device so you can be certain what you've done.

It's hard to avoid what was 95% of my clientele. It may be different for a lot of you, but I dealt with a lot of this for close to 4 years.

Also, I'm quite confident in my ability to approximate base readings through adjustments.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 04:04 PM
You seem to be superimposing a lot, particularly discussions over tension changes years back when we're only talking about techniques for restoring an already existing one.

The way they all seem to be related to you is that no trouble should be taken for them either way.

Here is what I mean (taken from above):

"diredesire: I find your last point above particularly interesting. If someone comes to me infrequently and wants their racquet restrung, it is true they probably won't even remember how their racquet FELT a year ago. I don't think this disqualifies them from having the overall string job perform the same as it did before (prior to a grommet switch), so I will go ahead and bump +2. I'm not claiming in any way that this is a scientific compensation, I use it as a rule of thumb and I understand that a reference is achieved (theoretically) by doing so. I'm not trying to nail it, I'm trying to stay as close as possible and match myself if possible.

YUlitle:This is where we disagree. I don't feel it's necessary to go to great lengths to recreate how the racquet felt a year ago. Now, one adjustment is obviously not "great lengths." But, I'm not going to delve too deeply into what obviously matters very little to the player. And I'm not talking, it doesn't matter because he won't notice. I'm say, it doesn't matter TO HIM. Meaning, he doesn't care or, doesn't understand that his (in)actions make it impossible for him to discern the difference. Making a knee-jerk reaction and adjusting out of habit is one thing, but going the extra mile for someone who doesn't care about the way his equipment plays seems, to me, to be a waste of time."

YULitle
07-30-2008, 04:06 PM
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, Valjean.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 04:17 PM
Just this: Restorative changes needn't have aroused you to this extent, to the point of not going some "extra mile" you don't allude to, but past discussions of tension adjustments just might have done so. They appear to be what you've had in the back of your mind the most today.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 04:22 PM
Just this: Restorative changes needn't have aroused you to this extent, to the point of not going some "extra mile" you don't allude to, but past discussions of tension adjustments just might have done so. They appear to be what you've had in the back of your mind the most today.

I kind of see what you are getting at. I bolded the part that made me turn my head in confusion. The last sentence is certainly true. Especially on this forum. The majority of the people that fit into my no-base/no-care category don't wish to have more than a 10 second discussion of things. There are those who are unaware that they have to choose tension until I ask them about it. But, there are a few people who make a big deal about what won't matter. There are a lot of them on this board. My point in all of this is that adjustments have become a concern for those it needn't.

Valjean
07-30-2008, 04:29 PM
I think most people can empathize, but when we're young, and inexperienced, we think there is something we could overlook that might come back and haunt us!

It's sort of a rant you have, too. Think of how much you say you have thought this over. And how little you've said in response to the topic, too.

YULitle
07-30-2008, 04:37 PM
I think most people can empathize, but when we're young, and inexperienced, we think there is something we could overlook that might come back and haunt us!

It's sort of a rant you have, too. Think of how much you say you have thought this over. And how little you've said in response to the topic, too.

Well, my responses were more to responses. I was gone for four days and a lot was said and someone had mentioned my name so I felt I had to speak my peace. I could've made it simple and said "give it a shot." But, after reading all the posts I certainly got emotional and "ranted" about the responses.

I'm very hesitant to advise people to do anything with little background information and I seldom feel that I have enough to render an appropriate response.

2nd_Serve
07-30-2008, 09:49 PM
I don't think you need to do it with a new racket. But I think it would be something to consider if you replace your grommets.

Richard Parnell
07-30-2008, 11:34 PM
It's hard to avoid what was 95% of my clientele. It may be different for a lot of you, but I dealt with a lot of this for close to 4 years.

Also, I'm quite confident in my ability to approximate base readings through adjustments.


With no disrespect Yulitle, I have been dealing with it for the last 30 years and of those, 16 at tour standard. I don't mean to start a ******* contest but sometimes its better to take something on authority, think about it, get another experts opinion and compare the 2. The more opinions the better, as long as they are from experience. These little things make the difference of one stringer to the next.

Got to go and string some sticks and pay the mortgage.
Have a great day guys,
Richard