What is the minumum height for having a good serve?

[Caladbolg]

So which would be the minumum height to have enough net clearence or enough angle, which lower than that would not be possible?

Also, if someone is 5'6, is that pushing it if you want to have a good and consistent serve? Both 1st and 2nd.

[BallBeemer]

Well the Taiwan junior that won the French wasn't very tall.

[Murray_Maniac]

To have a great serve easier Im guessing 5'9''. Thats how tall I am now and Im noticing that Im having a much better height advantage than I did b4. If you mean a good or okay serve, based on height advantage only, Im guessing the mid 5' range. Just remeber that height advantage has only some say in how good youre serve is.

[beedlejuice22]

You can have a consistent serve really from any height. It will just make it easier to hit if you're taller. Being tall doesn't automatically give you a good serve.

[Murray_Maniac]

You can have a consistent serve really from any height. It will just make it easier to hit if you're taller. Being tall doesn't automatically give you a good serve.

Thats the point that I tryed to get across.

[Nellie]

Henin would hit 110mph at 5'4". Thomas Johansson would hit 140 mph at 5'10"

It's about technique, fast twitch muscles, and not only height

[Caladbolg]

Henin would hit 110mph at 5'4". Thomas Johansson would hit 140 mph at 5'10"

It's about technique, fast twitch muscles, and not only height

Isn't Henin 5'6? I thought she was like that, or like 5'5 something

[Caladbolg]

My friend was very down today when we played because of this, he asked me to put up this thread to see what knowledgeable peolple had to say about it, because he doesn't have a computer, so I did him the favor.

What he said was that he felt already at a disadvantage in playing tennis competitively because he's 5'6, he said he'll never have a good serve and that bigger guys will just blow him away, and he even considered to quit playing, but I wouldn't want people here to just cheer him up or something but instead give good, true advice about it, if they could

[krchawaii]

This isn't my words,
but I heard from someone that it is ideal to be around or at least 6' 2" ish because that is the height in which your racquet contact point is above the net, therefore getting a downward angle on the serve.

[Nellie]

My friend was very down today when we played because of this, he asked me to put up this thread to see what knowledgeable peolple had to say about it, because he doesn't have a computer, so I did him the favor.

What he said was that he felt already at a disadvantage in playing tennis competitively because he's 5'6, he said he'll never have a good serve and that bigger guys will just blow him away, and he even considered to quit playing, but I wouldn't want people here to just cheer him up or something but instead give good, true advice about it, if they could

Your buddy can also likely outrun other players all day. There is a reason that professional tennis players are getting shorter. You are seeing players at 5'10 and below like Davydenko, Ferrer, and Nalbanian belting 120 mph+ serves and still running down shots.

Serving is about technique, and there is so much a player can do to improve their serve.

Obviously, everyone wants to be the person hitting the big shots and pushing others around - thus the infatuation for Safin. That's simply not most players though.

[Nellie]

This isn't my words,
but I heard from someone that it is ideal to be around or at least 6' 2" ish because that is the height in which your racquet contact point is above the net, therefore getting a downward angle on the serve.

The ideal professional tennis player is problably shorter to run all day, but with Gorilla length arms (a "knuckler dragger") to still hit the monster serve. Just look at Sampras and Federer.

[Venetian]

My friend was very down today when we played because of this, he asked me to put up this thread to see what knowledgeable peolple had to say about it, because he doesn't have a computer, so I did him the favor.

What he said was that he felt already at a disadvantage in playing tennis competitively because he's 5'6, he said he'll never have a good serve and that bigger guys will just blow him away, and he even considered to quit playing, but I wouldn't want people here to just cheer him up or something but instead give good, true advice about it, if they could

Olivier Rochus is 5'6" and I believe achieved his career high singles ranking of something like #33 in 2007. You can check the facts on the ATP website. So, by that, your friends height alone is only limiting him if his dream is to be #32 in the world.

I'm 5'5" myself and have a decent serve. I don't serve bombs, but I can spin it in with some nice kick and even get some aces here and there.

[Venetian]

Here's Rochus playing...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zettkI_ZzwA&feature=related

And some footage of Henin serving. Seems to get plenty of pop to me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rGJOiBOQZwo

[Caladbolg]

Here's Rochus playing...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zettkI_ZzwA&feature=related

And some footage of Henin serving. Seems to get plenty of pop to me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rGJOiBOQZwo

Hmm nice videos, they do have decent serves. They also say that the tallest player does not necessarily win or is the best, if that were so Isner or Karlovic would be the best ones, and we all know that's not the case, but still the best 3 are 6'1 6'1 and 6'2, which is a long gap and difference from 5'6, so it's still pretty bad.

[Caladbolg]

It would be cool to put like a little stool or bench with some wheels and stand on it for serving and then when you serve you kick it back and continue to rally hehe

[Noveson]

The ideal professional tennis player is problably shorter to run all day, but with Gorilla length arms (a "knuckler dragger") to still hit the monster serve. Just look at Sampras and Federer.

Your buddy can also likely outrun other players all day. There is a reason that professional tennis players are getting shorter. You are seeing players at 5'10 and below like Davydenko, Ferrer, and Nalbanian belting 120 mph+ serves and still running down shots.

Serving is about technique, and there is so much a player can do to improve their serve.

Obviously, everyone wants to be the person hitting the big shots and pushing others around - thus the infatuation for Safin. That's simply not most players though.

Not at all. Sampras and Federer, the two examples you gave, and the two best players of all time, are both 6'1", which seems to be the best combination. That is not short at all. Nadal and Joker are both upwards of 6'0, and so is Roddick, Blake, and Murray.

While shorter players can definitely compete, especially at the rec level, being somewhat tall is an advantage.

[Venetian]

Hmm nice videos, they do have decent serves. They also say that the tallest player does not necessarily win or is the best, if that were so Isner or Karlovic would be the best ones, and we all know that's not the case, but still the best 3 are 6'1 6'1 and 6'2, which is a long gap and difference from 5'6, so it's still pretty bad.

Yeah but you're only looking at a difference of #32 spots in the world rankings. I'm sure Rochus regularly beats the pants off of many pros in the top 200-300, and you KNOW they're all taller than him. He consistently stays within the top 100 in the world, so the guy doesn't seem very limited to me.

[Venetian]

Not at all. Sampras and Federer, the two examples you gave, and the two best players of all time, are both 6'1", which seems to be the best combination. That is not short at all. Nadal and Joker are both upwards of 6'0, and so is Roddick, Blake, and Murray.

While shorter players can definitely compete, especially at the rec level, being somewhat tall is an advantage.

Definitely. I'm sure Rochus makes good use of the few natural advantages he does have over taller guys. Foot speed comes to mind of course. He must be incredibly fast and probably an excellent ball striker.

[Venetian]

But yeah, unless this guys friend has realistic expectations of being one of the top 50 tennis players in the world, I think he should be able to accomplish whatever he wants without mere height being at fault for any failures.

[2nd_Serve]

Doesn't matter how tall you are.

[Steady Eddy]

This isn't my words,
but I heard from someone that it is ideal to be around or at least 6' 2" ish because that is the height in which your racquet contact point is above the net, therefore getting a downward angle on the serve.
You can estimate this with some basic math. Imagine a metal pole runing from the service line, to the top of the net, and back to the opposite baseline. How high is it at the baseline? As you go 21 feet forward to the net, it climbs 3 feet up. To the next service line is another 3 feet up. From here it's 18 feet to the baseline, let's say it's 21 feet, then up we go another 3 feet. So the bar is 9 feet high at the baseline. (Actually, from 3 feet behind the baseline. But this figure is good enough.)

How tall do you have to be to reach this 9 foot pole with the center of your racquet? A tennis racquet is 27 inches long, so the center is about two feet away from your hand. Your hand at impact is about two feet above your head. That's four feet extra from your arm and racquet to reach 9 feet. So anyone over five feet tall can hit a hard, flat serve, and still get it into the court.

I talked about this with a pro once. He said it wouldn't go 3,6,9 but would double each time: 3, 6, 12. Sorry, that's not a straight line. He might be a great athlete, but he doesn't understand geometry. This myth about needing to be a giant to hit a hard serve is easily debunked.

[i8myshirt]

Didn't some guy in a wheelchair hit a 100 mph kick serve?

[FedererISBetter]

My friend was very down today when we played because of this, he asked me to put up this thread to see what knowledgeable peolple had to say about it, because he doesn't have a computer, so I did him the favor.

What he said was that he felt already at a disadvantage in playing tennis competitively because he's 5'6, he said he'll never have a good serve and that bigger guys will just blow him away, and he even considered to quit playing, but I wouldn't want people here to just cheer him up or something but instead give good, true advice about it, if they could

Then tell him to brush up on the rest of his game if people are blowing him away on his serves.. make any sense? What is your friends ranking/rating... since hes playing compeitively?

As for me, I am 5'7... I dont serve much aces... but I do open up angles to follow up with whatever I needed to do. I'm not sure whats good standards but my first serve is max low 100s and second is mid 80s.

[Caladbolg]

You can estimate this with some basic math. Imagine a metal pole runing from the service line, to the top of the net, and back to the opposite baseline. How high is it at the baseline? As you go 21 feet forward to the net, it climbs 3 feet up. To the next service line is another 3 feet up. From here it's 18 feet to the baseline, let's say it's 21 feet, then up we go another 3 feet. So the bar is 9 feet high at the baseline. (Actually, from 3 feet behind the baseline. But this figure is good enough.)

How tall do you have to be to reach this 9 foot pole with the center of your racquet? A tennis racquet is 27 inches long, so the center is about two feet away from your hand. Your hand at impact is about two feet above your head. That's four feet extra from your arm and racquet to reach 9 feet. So anyone over five feet tall can hit a hard, flat serve, and still get it into the court.

I talked about this with a pro once. He said it wouldn't go 3,6,9 but would double each time: 3, 6, 12. Sorry, that's not a straight line. He might be a great athlete, but he doesn't understand geometry. This myth about needing to be a giant to hit a hard serve is easily debunked.

Good post. So what you are saying is that, if I put one end of a perfectly straight tube/post at the service line and then direct the other end towards the baseline while supporting it at the net (just slightly touching it, not letting it hang of course), supposing it's exactly 60ft long (which is the distance from the service line to the baseline?) the resulting height of the other end is the ideal height to strike the ball for a flat serve? This pic explains it better, the long black line is the post:

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7434/courtao0.th.png (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=courtao0.png)

[beedlejuice22]

I have a fairly strong serve for my age and I'm only 5'6".

[CoachingMastery]

Consider that Bethany Mattek is around 5'5" and has recorded the second fastest serve in the WTA at 121 mph, (if my memory is correct). You can get a great serve in at these heights.

As a teaching pro, I often demonstrate my serve on my knees (to show that a great serve is indeed NOT about height but about racquet head speed), and have hit consistently around 100 mph from this position. (Which sets me at about 4' tall with no leg push or thrust at all.)

As some have already mentioned, a great serve is more about technique than about physical attributes. Certainly being tall is an advantage...but, very few tall players (non professionals) execute the serve using optimal technique...thus they don't maximize their height or strength.

Learn to serve correctly, build from this foundation, and you will be on your way to hitting big first serves and wicked second serves.

[albino smurf]

...he's 5'6, he said he'll never have a good serve and that bigger guys will just blow him away, and he even considered to quit playing...

WEAK.

10 char mins suck.

[WBF]

People place too much importance on height. There are short beginners, short college players, and short professional players. Blaming anything on height is a terrible excuse. I'm 6'1", but I've lost to incredibly talented people over a foot shorter than I am. And their serves were just as good as tall people's.

[Caladbolg]

Consider that Bethany Mattek is around 5'5" and has recorded the second fastest serve in the WTA at 121 mph, (if my memory is correct). You can get a great serve in at these heights.

As a teaching pro, I often demonstrate my serve on my knees (to show that a great serve is indeed NOT about height but about racquet head speed), and have hit consistently around 100 mph from this position. (Which sets me at about 4' tall with no leg push or thrust at all.)

As some have already mentioned, a great serve is more about technique than about physical attributes. Certainly being tall is an advantage...but, very few tall players (non professionals) execute the serve using optimal technique...thus they don't maximize their height or strength.

Learn to serve correctly, build from this foundation, and you will be on your way to hitting big first serves and wicked second serves.

Great advice, thanks.

WEAK.

10 char mins suck.

I'm sorry but what does that mean? I'm not familiar with those sayings yet, sorry

[BullDogTennis]

id say he needs to develop a good kick serve, that has a lot of net clearance and kicks up alot. also height shouldnt matter that much, sure he might have trouble hitting a killer flat serve, but that shoudltn be a problem.

just thing, hitting at the highest point in his jump, would likely put him about 7 feet anyhow and that should be enough id think.


just think of this.

advantage:
Tall player: likely bigger shots, and bigger serve
Short player: consistent shots, hit on the run better, moves very well.

Disadvantages:
Tall player: cant move very well,
Short: doesnt hit as big.

Of course these are all stereotypes, and majority of the time are probably true, but not always.

[Caladbolg]

Why do you think a shorter player would be more consistent than a taller one? Doesn't a taller player have an advantage also on groundstrokes because he has more angle too? He'd be able to hit more flat I think, as the net would be lower to him and won't need that much topspin to get it in, instead a short guy might need to hit more topspin to land it in don't you think?

[TennisProdigy]

Didn't some guy in a wheelchair hit a 100 mph kick serve?

If by 100 mph u mean 40 mph and hitting 5% then yes.

[TennisProdigy]

id say he needs to develop a good kick serve, that has a lot of net clearance and kicks up alot. also height shouldnt matter that much, sure he might have trouble hitting a killer flat serve, but that shoudltn be a problem.

just thing, hitting at the highest point in his jump, would likely put him about 7 feet anyhow and that should be enough id think.


just think of this.

advantage:
Tall player: likely bigger shots, and bigger serve
Short player: consistent shots, hit on the run better, moves very well.

Disadvantages:
Tall player: cant move very well,
Short: doesnt hit as big.

Of course these are all stereotypes, and majority of the time are probably true, but not always.

The perfect tennis height is anywhere between 5'10 and 6'2.

[Tim Tennis]

Wow, I think you can have a good serve no matter what your height is. If you are 5 ft tall, no you are not going to have a really good flat serve, but if you have good rotation and proper mechanics you can hit a great slice serve and topspin serve. I would not limit myself.

Best regards,

Ed

Tennis Geometrics

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com

[BeHappy]

I would say 5 foot 5 is the limit for a world class serve.

[Caladbolg]

I would say 5 foot 5 is the limit for a world class serve.

So you could still hit a really fast flat serve at that height right? (I know that suppossedly there isn't such a thing as a completely flat serve, but you get the idea). So since you can, then it depends in the ability of the player if he can hit 130mph+ serves at that height?

[BullDogTennis]

Why do you think a shorter player would be more consistent than a taller one? Doesn't a taller player have an advantage also on groundstrokes because he has more angle too? He'd be able to hit more flat I think, as the net would be lower to him and won't need that much topspin to get it in, instead a short guy might need to hit more topspin to land it in don't you think?

i believe topspin will give more accuracy.


but my thinging was mostly that, a bigger guy doesnt get around as well normally, so when he has to hit on the run he's usually late, making it not as consistent, when a littler guy normally would get there quicker giving them more time to set up.

im not being like biased to short people or nothing i mean im about 6'2 i get around well, but i know alot of people around there sometime strugle a bit, and when i play littler guys they usually still move better than i do. i mean its just physics, lower center of gravity.

[BullDogTennis]

So you could still hit a really fast flat serve at that height right? (I know that suppossedly there isn't such a thing as a completely flat serve, but you get the idea). So since you can, then it depends in the ability of the player if he can hit 130mph+ serves at that height?

if your around 6'6 or so id think you could hit a COMPLETELY flat serve.

[Venetian]

The perfect tennis height is anywhere between 5'10 and 6'2.

There really is no perfect height for tennis. That's the idea behind all the previous posts. =)

Everyone has different obstacles to deal with.

[ultima972]

What is the minumum height for having a good serve?


Minimum height? I'd say the ball has to go at least 10 feet up in the air. The absolute minimum would be 9 feet and that's for a very short person.

[Steady Eddy]

Good post. So what you are saying is that, if I put one end of a perfectly straight tube/post at the service line and then direct the other end towards the baseline while supporting it at the net (just slightly touching it, not letting it hang of course), supposing it's exactly 60ft long (which is the distance from the service line to the baseline?) the resulting height of the other end is the ideal height to strike the ball for a flat serve? This pic explains it better, the long black line is the post:

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7434/courtao0.th.png (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=courtao0.png)

You got it. Good graphics.

[TennisProdigy]

As a teaching pro, I often demonstrate my serve on my knees (to show that a great serve is indeed NOT about height but about racquet head speed), and have hit consistently around 100 mph from this position. (Which sets me at about 4' tall with no leg push or thrust at all.)
.

What?! Teach me how to do that.

[Mansewerz]

Good post. So what you are saying is that, if I put one end of a perfectly straight tube/post at the service line and then direct the other end towards the baseline while supporting it at the net (just slightly touching it, not letting it hang of course), supposing it's exactly 60ft long (which is the distance from the service line to the baseline?) the resulting height of the other end is the ideal height to strike the ball for a flat serve? This pic explains it better, the long black line is the post:

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7434/courtao0.th.png (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=courtao0.png)
Net to the service line is 21 feet!? :shock:

[Rickson]

Net to the service line is 21 feet!? :shock:

Yes it is. That's why you have to learn how to volley from so far back.

[harr]

If by 100 mph u mean 40 mph and hitting 5% then yes.Though 100mph is probably very rare in wheelchair tennis, the normal speeds are faster than what most people here probably hit. http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/stats/day14/19031ms.html

[albino smurf]

People place too much importance on height. There are short beginners, short college players, and short professional players. Blaming anything on height is a terrible excuse. I'm 6'1", but I've lost to incredibly talented people over a foot shorter than I am. And their serves were just as good as tall people's.

You've lost to people under 5 feet tall? Were they albinos? They may have been my long lost relatives... not the ones in banking in Zimbabwe, but the ones that live in a magical forest.

[Julieta]

What?! Teach me how to do that.

You just put a towel or something on the ground and go for it!! I bet there is a picture somewhere. I think its Macci or some pro who gets a lot of press who does this. It's a great drill. I should do it. I need to do something...but that's another topic.

[Julieta]

So which would be the minumum height to have enough net clearence or enough angle, which lower than that would not be possible?

Also, if someone is 5'6, is that pushing it if you want to have a good and consistent serve? Both 1st and 2nd.

Tell your friend to not be depressed. He can have a good smart serve. Tell him to really practice his returns too. He can have great returns. In my opinion it is easier to return if you can have a low center of gravity. Tall people sometimes cannot move as well or get down as low on returns. I knew this guy who had incredible returns. I think he was 5'8 or so.

[CoachingMastery]

What?! Teach me how to do that.

Here is a shot of me demonstrating this serve. (While I'm just hitting a easy serve here, the swing mechanics are the same as when I'm swinging harder.) http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/smith/serve/knees.gif

[CoachingMastery]

What?! Teach me how to do that.

Here is a shot of me demonstrating this serve. (While I'm just hitting a easy serve here, the swing mechanics are the same as when I'm swinging harder.) http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/smith/serve/knees.gifhttp://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/smith/serve/knees.gif

[yemenmocha]

There seem to be a lot of rather permissive definitions of "good serve".

Although there are some exceptions, there is a generality that applies here.

Assuming a college level player and beyond, it is extremely rare for anyone 6ft. & up to not have a serve that is a weapon. Short folks are not always fast, have great footwork, have a great return of serve, etc. The serve is almost always a strength for tall people, and there's no universal benefit to being short.

As others said, every player has their challenges, but it is a simple fact that being tall (ideally in the low 6 ft. range) is a distinct advantage for serving.

What's next, disputing that being left-handed is an advantage in tennis?

[Venetian]

There seem to be a lot of rather permissive definitions of "good serve".

Although there are some exceptions, there is a generality that applies here.

Assuming a college level player and beyond, it is extremely rare for anyone 6ft. & up to not have a serve that is a weapon. Short folks are not always fast, have great footwork, have a great return of serve, etc. The serve is almost always a strength for tall people, and there's no universal benefit to being short.

As others said, every player has their challenges, but it is a simple fact that being tall (ideally in the low 6 ft. range) is a distinct advantage for serving.

What's next, disputing that being left-handed is an advantage in tennis?

That's not really the point of the thread. The OP questioned whether his friend could ever hope to have a good serve being a short guy, and he can.

As for what you posted, being tall is an advantage yes, but having good enough technique to make use of that advantage is something else. You could be 9 feet tall and suck out loud at serving.

In summary, technique is the most important factor for a solid serve.

[Caladbolg]

So let's suppose again that I were 5'6, and let's say that I train and acquire a good technique and have the ability and strength to possibly hit a 130+ flat serve, could I really be able to hit one, given that I were very skilled? That's really what my friend told me he wants to know right now today, because if it is possible, he said, with that height, that he'll continue to practice and desist quitting lol

[Steady Eddy]

Sure he can. We said that the "pole" would be 9 feet high 42 feet behind the baseline. But that was just to make the math easier. He can stand 3 feet further in than that, which reduced the height he needs to reach by 3/7s of a foot. So he only has to have his racquet reach a height of 8 4/7 feet. A 5'6" guy should be able to do that. And even at 130 mph, gravity will still pull his ball down 2 feet during it's flight, giving him yet more margin for error. So it can be done. Generating the 130 mph, that he'll have to do on his own.

[slice bh compliment]

I remember a guy I played in a satellite....ran into him in NY yrs later. 5 foot 6 with shoes on. HUGE serve. Very accurate. Often 120 he said: as big a serve as mine and I'm between 6 and 6'1''. Only he had more work on the ball. Impressive, strong guy, this one. And super clean technique.

Andrei Pavel, Thomas Johansson, JC Ferrero, Nicolas Kiefer, and many women: shorter than I am, yet pretty big servers.

It's technique, timing, disguise and accuracy.

EDIT: I've got to be honest, I'm a little tired of people who fixate on height and other physical variables that may or may not be controlled. Get on with it. Nobody's a victim. This is one of the most democratic of all sports. Except maybe golf.

[Dashbarr]

I'm 5'7" and I overpower people with my serves and groundies very often. One just has to rely on building a strong kinetic chain and utilizing strength rather than using length and height.

Edit: I agree with Slice, tennis is fairly equal opportunities. Its far from basketball and gymnastics.

[Caladbolg]

Sure he can. We said that the "pole" would be 9 feet high 42 feet behind the baseline. But that was just to make the math easier. He can stand 3 feet further in than that, which reduced the height he needs to reach by 3/7s of a foot. So he only has to have his racquet reach a height of 8 4/7 feet. A 5'6" guy should be able to do that. And even at 130 mph, gravity will still pull his ball down 2 feet during it's flight, giving him yet more margin for error. So it can be done. Generating the 130 mph, that he'll have to do on his own.

That's good to know, but I don't get yet the pole thing, the height of the contact point standing exactly like when you're going to serve? Please explain it to me! sorry

[Fedace]

So which would be the minumum height to have enough net clearence or enough angle, which lower than that would not be possible?

Also, if someone is 5'6, is that pushing it if you want to have a good and consistent serve? Both 1st and 2nd.

Yes 5'6" guy can still have a great serve. Johan Kriek is the best example. He was a short guy that had a great serve in his day. he served and volleyed all the time and was a top 10 player.:)

[Steady Eddy]

That's good to know, but I don't get yet the pole thing, the height of the contact point standing exactly like when you're going to serve? Please explain it to me! sorry

The harder you hit your serve, generally, the straighter it's flight, (please folks, we're talking a flat serve here). So if you were to place a metal pole on the service line, rest the other side on the net, how high would the pole be at the baseline? If you can reach higher than this point, then you can serve by hitting down on the ball and still get it in the service box with no spin and no gravity.

[inferno303]

I'm 5'7" and I overpower people with my serves and groundies very often. One just has to rely on building a strong kinetic chain and utilizing strength rather than using length and height.

Edit: I agree with Slice, tennis is fairly equal opportunities. Its far from basketball and gymnastics.

hear, hear. same goes for me.

but i like to take on big servers, helps me get into the taller opponents' heads, makes them go like 'crap! he hits return winners'

[Caladbolg]

The harder you hit your serve, generally, the straighter it's flight, (please folks, we're talking a flat serve here). So if you were to place a metal pole on the service line, rest the other side on the net, how high would the pole be at the baseline? If you can reach higher than this point, then you can serve by hitting down on the ball and still get it in the service box with no spin and no gravity.

Didn't you already say how high that would be? I think I forgot :(

[Steady Eddy]

Didn't you already say how high that would be? I think I forgot :(

If the center of your racquet can reach a height of 8 4/7 feet, then you can get a 'bullet' serve in, if you hit it perfectly.

[Caladbolg]

If the center of your racquet can reach a height of 8 4/7 feet, then you can get a 'bullet' serve in, if you hit it perfectly.

8 feet and 4 and a half inches? Hmm I measured that with my friend right now, and I think it came out that he reached like 8 feet exactly just stretching his arm with the racket, the center of the racket, not the tip, so when actually serving it should come out more than that because he makes a hop or little jump like all servers right? Since you "jump into it", you should cover that height right?

[Caladbolg]

Oops, now I got the height you said, 8 feet and 4/7th of an inch right? Got it.

[WBF]

There seem to be a lot of rather permissive definitions of "good serve".

Although there are some exceptions, there is a generality that applies here.

Assuming a college level player and beyond, it is extremely rare for anyone 6ft. & up to not have a serve that is a weapon. Short folks are not always fast, have great footwork, have a great return of serve, etc. The serve is almost always a strength for tall people, and there's no universal benefit to being short.

As others said, every player has their challenges, but it is a simple fact that being tall (ideally in the low 6 ft. range) is a distinct advantage for serving.

What's next, disputing that being left-handed is an advantage in tennis?

That's funny, I've seen plenty of tall guys out there without massive serves.

I do agree that being short might make serving big flat serves a bit less consistent, but if you can hit a solid pace serve with good action on it, who the hell cares? I can serve harder than most, but I've found that even against the top players I go up against, my flat bomb can be less effective than serves with a good bit of action. The advantage of height is certainly far, far less of a factor than being a lefty.

[Steady Eddy]

Oops, now I got the height you said, 8 feet and 4/7th of an inch right? Got it.

It's all in feet. So 8 feet and 4/7 of a foot. Let's just call it 8 feet plus 7 inches.

[Kobble]

Benjamin Becker is about 5'10, and serves as high as 140 mph. I think getting a good spring foreward into the court will help more than anything else. My first serve percentage went up significantly by practicing that, and so did the power.

[GuyClinch]

If we REALLY want to get into this - I think you have to measure what in hoops they call 'standing reach" as your neck length probably isn't that helpful. Sometimes some much shorter people can have quite long arms - and tall people might not actually be able to reach that high.

Even so shorter people like Agassi can hit wicked kick serves - so that any height advantage can be somewhat nullified.

Pete

[JohnnySpot]

me says 5'5" cause little Henin got da job done.

[Nellie]

I was watching a high level junior tournement this weekend and the 13-14 boys (looked to be around 5'6") were serving well over 100 MPH first serves.

[dman72]

I was playing my friend last night who is really struggling with his serve. Great strokes, terrible serve....i mean he's double faulting twice per service game, and I'm destroying the serves he gets in...it's completely flat. It's amazing because this guy took tennis lessons when he was younger and was on his high school team. He's about 5'6.

First, I stood still on the baseline and tossed the ball to about the level of my head (I'm 6'1), then swung and pronated. 4 out of 5 were in the box. Then I did the same thing with topspin...5 of 5 in the box. Then, I got down on my knees and hit with topspin...3 of 5 in the box. On my knees I'm about 4 feet tall.

[Swissv2]

I was playing my friend last night who is really struggling with his serve. Great strokes, terrible serve....i mean he's double faulting twice per service game, and I'm destroying the serves he gets in...it's completely flat. It's amazing because this guy took tennis lessons when he was younger and was on his high school team. He's about 5'6.

First, I stood still on the baseline and tossed the ball to about the level of my head (I'm 6'1), then swung and pronated. 4 out of 5 were in the box. Then I did the same thing with topspin...5 of 5 in the box. Then, I got down on my knees and hit with topspin...3 of 5 in the box. On my knees I'm about 4 feet tall.

You have to consider that you took yourself out of your "comfort zone" so one cannot expect you to make as many serves when you were kneeling.

I do not think you can attribute someone's ability to make a serve entirely based on their height because all players, once they get better, establish a technique that works for them. For example, the teaching pros here demonstrate the ability to spin the serve in on their knees, and they make the serves in each time. Also consider that Olivier Rochus (5'5"), and the majority of WTA players 5'6" and under would probably have a higher service percentage that you.

[dman72]

You have to consider that you took yourself out of your "comfort zone" so one cannot expect you to make as many serves when you were kneeling.

I do not think you can attribute someone's ability to make a serve entirely based on their height because all players, once they get better, establish a technique that works for them. For example, the teaching pros here demonstrate the ability to spin the serve in on their knees, and they make the serves in each time. Also consider that Olivier Rochus (5'5"), and the majority of WTA players 5'6" and under would probably have a higher service percentage that you.


I think you are misreading what I was saying. I was trying to communicate to him that his height has nothing to do with his serve sucking. It started because he made it seem like serving was so much easier for me because I'm half a foot taller than he is.

The toss at my head level was to simulate someone even shorter than him serving. My percentage there with topspin was 100%

3 out of 5 from my knees at a simulated 4 feet tall is pretty good.... better than his first serve percentage was, and not far off from mine over the course of the match. I play a guy who is an inch shorter than him and his serve is not a liability at all.

[Swissv2]

I was trying to communicate to him that his height has nothing to do with his serve sucking. It started because he made it seem like serving was so much easier for me because I'm half a foot taller than he is.


thanks for clarifying that.

[Bungalo Bill]

So which would be the minumum height to have enough net clearence or enough angle, which lower than that would not be possible?

Also, if someone is 5'6, is that pushing it if you want to have a good and consistent serve? Both 1st and 2nd.

when considering having a good serve, hiegth of a player is not the only thing to consider.

You can be short and still have a good serve. It may be a bit more challenging for you to perform certain serves (like a flat serve), but you can overcome this by compensating with topspin.

All in all, a good serve is determined by your consistency, placement, power, and technique.

To answer your question regarding height, generally the scales tip towards players who are 6 ' 2" and above. They tend to have a more downward look into the service box.

However, I wouldn't hold any hard fast rules on this. There are plenty of 6' 2" tennis players with lousey serves. :)

[Caladbolg]

I was playing my friend last night who is really struggling with his serve. Great strokes, terrible serve....i mean he's double faulting twice per service game, and I'm destroying the serves he gets in...it's completely flat. It's amazing because this guy took tennis lessons when he was younger and was on his high school team. He's about 5'6.

First, I stood still on the baseline and tossed the ball to about the level of my head (I'm 6'1), then swung and pronated. 4 out of 5 were in the box. Then I did the same thing with topspin...5 of 5 in the box. Then, I got down on my knees and hit with topspin...3 of 5 in the box. On my knees I'm about 4 feet tall.

So what's your point with this? Anyone with any height can get a topspin serve in because well, it has topspin, but this thread is about a flat cannonball first serve; topspin serves like I said don't need height.

[Venetian]

So what's your point with this? Anyone with any height can get a topspin serve in because well, it has topspin, but this thread is about a flat cannonball first serve; topspin serves like I said don't need height.

That is not what the thread is about. No where in the title or first post did the OP mention his friend trying to hit "flat cannonball" serves, just good serves.

[Caladbolg]

That is not what the thread is about. No where in the title or first post did the OP mention his friend trying to hit "flat cannonball" serves, just good serves.

You're right, I forgot to specify that it is about that one in general, so know you know

[Venetian]

You're right, I forgot to specify that it is about that one in general, so know you know

Oh, you are the OP. Yeah, you should have mentioned that you were talking specifically about flat serves. Even then, I don't think any serve is completely flat. They all have some amount of spin.

[WBF]

Wait, why do you care about flat cannonball first serves? During a recent tournament, I came up against a top 125 D1 player and his Dad (5.5. Of course, we got the unseeded team who won the tournament second round. Argh!)... Anyhow, While flat bombs did work when placed correctly, second serve kickers (and when used as a first serve) nearly guaranteed the point with a competent net player. Same deal against a less challenging team (5.5, 5.0). Flat serves that were not placed perfectly against both teams didn't go so well. Don't get worked up about not being able to hit massive first serves, they are far, far from the most effective serves...

[Cindysphinx]

Edit: I agree with Slice, tennis is fairly equal opportunities. Its far from basketball and gymnastics.

Ditto that.

I know this thread is about the serve, but being very tall can be a liability at the rec level. I know a woman who is six feet tall. Her serve is no faster than mine. She has no overhead, has trouble covering the net. (Has good groundstrokes and mental game, though).

So she is getting next to no benefit from the eight inches of height she has over me. Yet she has all the liabilities that come with extreme height (difficulty with low balls and footspeed).

At the rec level, height matters not so much. It's how you use what you have and how you compensate for what you don't have, IMHO.

[dman72]

Wait, why do you care about flat cannonball first serves? During a recent tournament, I came up against a top 125 D1 player and his Dad (5.5. Of course, we got the unseeded team who won the tournament second round. Argh!)... Anyhow, While flat bombs did work when placed correctly, second serve kickers (and when used as a first serve) nearly guaranteed the point with a competent net player. Same deal against a less challenging team (5.5, 5.0). Flat serves that were not placed perfectly against both teams didn't go so well. Don't get worked up about not being able to hit massive first serves, they are far, far from the most effective serves...

I've noticed this myself recently since both of my serves have picked up pace. Yes, I'm more likely to hit a flat serve for an ace. But if that flat serve is in the wheelhouse of someone who can block it back flat..it's going to come back with alarming pace!..often much harder than that person could ever hit a rally groundstroke.

Whereas a serve with good kick even in the wheelhouse..the opponent if they want to kill it is going to have to swing much harder, therefore more likely to make an error.

[GuyClinch]

^^^ Agreed. Most tall players at the recreational level struggle to use their height effectively. Even worse i find that most coaches think your serve is "good enough" even if it's at a fraction of it's potential.

One thing I struggle with it starting your serve "low" enough. I am so tall that I can serve like a guy throwing a football (pretty much on the same plane - your shoulders) whereas a good server really swings up and through the ball more to maximize power and spin.

It's far more important that people learn good form rather then worry about height. Height in tennis isn't such a huge advantage IMHO. It's not like hoops.

[Steve1954]

FWIW, St. Louis' best amateur player in the early '90s was 5'4". He won the four most important amateur tournaments the same year at least once that I recall. So I don't think height matters very much.

[montx]

My cousin is 5'5 and let me say this. He has a great serve. When your shorter in tennis your serve becomes more flat and that increases the pace that it comes at you.

Yes, the disadvantage in a way is the serve has to be flat to get over the net, but once mastered, it is very hard to return because the serve goes more straight than down.

In my opinion, he can do well if he has the discipline and desire for it. That is something he must be willing to overcome.

We all try to overcome things whether we are too fat or too hairy or too good looking or too ugly. There is something for everyone to improve and you can't do it without desire, dedication and discipline and for real success...luck.

[Caladbolg]

Thanks everyone, great advice here :)

[Lucky57]

you can have a good serve at any height.
however it is easier to serve when you're a bit taller cause you can naturally get higher net clearance with a flat serve.
again i'm not saying taller = better serve. i'm saying taller = easier net clearance.

[GuyClinch]

again i'm not saying taller = better serve. i'm saying taller = easier net clearance.

Easier net clearance and more theoretical power. I think the best comparison is MLB pitcher. Most of those dudes are big tall fairly strong guys - but on occasion a short guy has the skill and talent to do the job.

The flip side of that is sometimes big guys don't have a very good "arm" - of course the real problem is that they have poor throwing mechanics..

Pete

[Kratos]

Hey, what if a guy who is 5'6 tries to jump into the serve more? Like throw it somewhat high and then make a big jump to catch the ball higher in the air, would that work? This of course supposing the guy has good legs and can actually jump that high.

And anyways is that like bad? Maybe jumping too much into the serve? Would that take time away from you, like, you serve but you jumped high then when you're still in the air the guy returns the ball?

[dropaced333]

height is only slightly relevant in having a great serve, since the tallest player ever to hit the tour ivo karlovic (6'10") has a truly great serve but doesn't have an all around game to match... in the sort of middle, we have andy roddick at 6'1" with the world's fastest serve and a good all around game... and at the end of the height spectrum, we have rochus at 5'5" (as the above have mentioned) who has been able to beat marat safin and almost beat roger federer.... so height in the serve isn't a big issue, you just need the game to support your serve

[Mr. Anderson]

height is only slightly relevant in having a great serve, since the tallest player ever to hit the tour ivo karlovic (6'10") has a truly great serve but doesn't have an all around game to match... in the sort of middle, we have andy roddick at 6'1" with the world's fastest serve and a good all around game... and at the end of the height spectrum, we have rochus at 5'5" (as the above have mentioned) who has been able to beat marat safin and almost beat roger federer.... so height in the serve isn't a big issue, you just need the game to support your serve

Well said sir, that is true

[herosol]

Having a good serve doesn't require a minimum, but I believe the extra height helps a person last longer throughout a match.

Little guys have to throw so much into a serve for it to really dominate. But what happens when he/she plays a 3 setter with long sets? Can he/she still have that coil, power, focus? The extra height makes the lack of stamina not as relevant.

But height is not THAT big of a factor. I easily server faster and more accurate then my 6'3" friend.

[Leon22]

If I weren't 6'5 my serve would probably suck. To me it's like throwing the taller you are the more torque you can put into the motion.

Thats not to say shorter people can't serve well, but on average I would say taller people have a better serve then the average short person. Also because the taller person is simply at a better angle.

I mean just look at the ATP, Safin 6'5, Karlovic 6'9, Querrey 6'6, Roddick 6'2, Isner 6'10, Ancic 6'4 all the biggest serves in tennis. There aren't many pros under 6'0 with a big serve.

[Leon22]

That being said things balance out.

Tall people:
- Built to serve big
- Better coverage for net play
- Easier to handle higher bounces.

Short Peopl:
- Usually more mobile
- Better at getting low balls
- Better balance


These aren't hard set rules, just what I have observed. Bascailly if you're tall and your serve isn't big, you may as well quit tennis.

[Bud]

Consider that Bethany Mattek is around 5'5" and has recorded the second fastest serve in the WTA at 121 mph, (if my memory is correct). You can get a great serve in at these heights.

As a teaching pro, I often demonstrate my serve on my knees (to show that a great serve is indeed NOT about height but about racquet head speed), and have hit consistently around 100 mph from this position. (Which sets me at about 4' tall with no leg push or thrust at all.)

As some have already mentioned, a great serve is more about technique than about physical attributes. Certainly being tall is an advantage...but, very few tall players (non professionals) execute the serve using optimal technique...thus they don't maximize their height or strength.

Learn to serve correctly, build from this foundation, and you will be on your way to hitting big first serves and wicked second serves.

You can hit a legal 100 mph serve and get it into the box... while on your knees?

Do you have a video of this?

[TooMuchFun13]

Height makes it easier but you don't have to be tall to have great serves. I'm only 5' 5" but my serves are pretty good. My first serve is fast and I have never clocked it but I might say it's around 100 mph and my second serve isn't that slow either or less accurate. Although my serve is not my favorite shot I am damn proud of it because I practiced it every day once I learned the proper serving technique. I would go to the courts around noon where it was hot and no one was there and I would practice my serve with only three balls. I would walk around and around that court for 5 hours picking up those three balls and practicing my serve. After that it started paying off and I have one of the fastest serve between all my friends. So tell your friend that height doesn't matter, it's all about practice and hard work.

[Leon22]

Yeah but all things being equal I think taller people can put out a better serve with less hard work and effort. Secondly if a tall person puts in as much effort as a short person on their serve, 9 times out of 10 the tall person's serve is going to be better.

There is a reason Karlovic has a massive serve averaging around 130 MPH.

[CoachingMastery]

You can hit a legal 100 mph serve and get it into the box... while on your knees?

Do you have a video of this?

I don't have a video of the speed, only of me demonstrating it. However, believe me, most pros can serve over 100 on their knees...it is based on technique rather than strength. (I'm only 5'10" and weigh about 175 lbs.)

http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/smith/serve/knees.gif

Here I am demonstrating a more relaxed version...

I have a 17 year old girl who I trained who is only about 5'5" and serves over 120 mph.

The problem for most people to understand this is that most players use ineffective form, resulting in poor racquet head speed. Yet, we have many teens serving well over 110 mph all taught to serve correctly. While there are many others who don't quite reach these numbers, (due to limitations in athleticism, perception, etc.) most are able to serve at or near 100 mph. It isn't that uncommon among high-level players.

[Leon22]

I have trouble believing this, from a physics standpoint a taller person has potential for a bigger serve.

The other thing I can't believe is that people are seeming to say that the serve doesn't start from the legs and core. All the racket head speed is generated from the torque that can be built up starting in the legs, through the core, the shoulder, arm and finally the racket. There is no way it can all come from your arm and shoulder and if thats the way you are trying to serve then it isn't going to get you far.

Racket head speed means nothing if there is not momentum or weight behind it.

[LuckyR]

Height makes it easier but you don't have to be tall to have great serves. I'm only 5' 5" but my serves are pretty good. My first serve is fast and I have never clocked it but I might say it's around 100 mph and my second serve isn't that slow either or less accurate. Although my serve is not my favorite shot I am damn proud of it because I practiced it every day once I learned the proper serving technique. I would go to the courts around noon where it was hot and no one was there and I would practice my serve with only three balls. I would walk around and around that court for 5 hours picking up those three balls and practicing my serve. After that it started paying off and I have one of the fastest serve between all my friends. So tell your friend that height doesn't matter, it's all about practice and hard work.

If Henin can hit 124 MPH at your height, you can too. More technique than hard work, though.

[TooMuchFun13]

If Henin can hit 124 MPH at your height, you can too. More technique than hard work, though.

well haha practicing correct technique :)

[CoachingMastery]

I have trouble believing this, from a physics standpoint a taller person has potential for a bigger serve.

The other thing I can't believe is that people are seeming to say that the serve doesn't start from the legs and core. All the racket head speed is generated from the torque that can be built up starting in the legs, through the core, the shoulder, arm and finally the racket. There is no way it can all come from your arm and shoulder and if thats the way you are trying to serve then it isn't going to get you far.

Racket head speed means nothing if there is not momentum or weight behind it.

Height will have minimal effect on a "bigger" serve. Height can create a greater margin over the net with a serve of equal parameters. Granted, mass increases momentum and this concept alone, can describe why most all men on tour serve faster than most women on tour. Since they all swing with relatively effecient and effective serves, including racquet head speeds, (within certain degrees), then the difference between the men and women's serves on tour, at least, can be attributed to this average difference in mass between the average woman and man.

Look at Serena, her size is about the same a Fabrice Santoro and slightly bigger than Arnold Clemant, and even a little bigger than Oliver Rochus. (Oliver at about 5'5") Serena serves as fast, if not a little faster than both these guys. (I don't have the stats but I've been on the court with both men and can tell you that on average, they don't serve any faster.)

The serve DOES start from the legs and the core. But this initial movement of the kinetic chain has only minimal contributions to the serve speed. Players in wheelchairs can serve over 100 mph and pros often demonstrate serves on their knees at over 100 mph. Thus, the legs contribute a percentage of power, certainly not the greater percentage. (I can serve about 100 mph on my knees...my fastest recorded serve standing is 124 mph...So, from this one comparison, we can say that using the legs CORRECTLY contributed about 20 to 25 percent of my maximum serve.) There are other factors for sure, but this is clear that the legs are not providing the 50 to 70 percent some claim.

Another misconception is in holding the racquet. I've served over 90 mph holding my racquet in just my two fingers and thumb, holding loosely. (Only enough so that I don't lose the racquet in the swing.) The connection to my body is minimal...thus, the association of my body mass has little to do with the speed of the serve. What does have a direct connection is the mass of the racquet intersecting with the mass of the ball. The balance here of course is if a racquet is too massive, then the player can't generate as much speed or velocity. (Momentum = Mass times velocity) Ideally, a player who can genearate maximum racquet head speed along with the heaviest racquet they can generate said speed will produce the greatest ball velocity. (In theory, anyway!)

Hope this sheds some light on the subject!

[The Hybrid]

Im 6'1'' so I have a pretty good height advantage for my serve...A shorter guy would have to jump a little which might effect the serve...