View Full Version : Push And Pull Stroke
Many people still confuse about the different between push and pull stroke, i feel that i have obligation to resume it on this forum. What i state here by NO MEAN disrespect any body who have different definition or analysis at all:
PULL STROKE: it's start out about 20 years ago with NICK B "Killer forehand". it uses kinetic chain to achieve max racket speed. that is the source of ball high speed. many of you are all familar with the concept as well as technique to achieve this, then no need to goes further.
PUSH STROKE: It's start out about the same time with NICK B "Killer forehand" in a book of Oscar Wegner "you can play tennis in 2 hours" with his comment: "find the ball and push it"
No body really pay attention to what he say, myself included because we think push here he means use your hand or your body to push the ball.
A decade latter it's Dough King who reintroduce the push concept in his article" Hands have it" at Tennis one. The success of push stroke start with WTA players, begin with Williams sister and spread out widely even to all Junior player lately with its (push) signature: a huge loop.
PUSH here does not means you use you hand or your elbow or anything you can use to push the ball. Push here is a concept of utilize whole your BODY MASS behind the string bed to create ball speed (not racket speed). it use the compress ball and string bed deformation to store energy then bounce back. the time that ball stay long on the spring bed dictate power and control as a old tip we learn: keep the ball on the racket long time or hit THRU the ball. To verify time is involved in the outcome, the theory of Impact of two SOLID object that we all learn in college physic should modified in Impact of two SOFT object by using advanced calculus.
Then how do you create the push: simply put it: put your whole body behind the string bed: make your body a solid mass, do not have any disconnection between any part of your body, elbow, wrist, shoulder. But that is out of the purpose of this thread.
Rafael_Nadal_6257
08-17-2008, 10:22 AM
Since there have been almost a 100 views and no replies...
I'll reply.
OP: What exactly are you trying to say? Posing a question? Clarifying a misconception?
I'm also having some difficulty understanding your post..:confused:
thursdayisgod
08-18-2008, 10:17 AM
I am pretty interested in learnign the difference between 'push' and 'pull' strokes since i hear it referenced often by more advanced players; however, your post makes absolutely no sense.
Bungalo Bill
08-18-2008, 11:55 AM
Many people still confuse about the different between push and pull stroke, i feel that i have obligation to resume it on this forum. What i state here by NO MEAN disrespect any body who have different definition or analysis at all:
I think we went through this already. Why is this difficult to understand?
If the arm/elbow is behind the plane of the body (such as when you are getting ready to bring the racquet forward) you are going to have more of a "pulling" motion. When the arm/elbow gets in front of the body plane, you are going to have more of a "pushing" motion. However, even the degree of each throughout the stroke is up for debate.
PULL STROKE: it's start out about 20 years ago with NICK B "Killer forehand". it uses kinetic chain to achieve max racket speed. that is the source of ball high speed. many of you are all familar with the concept as well as technique to achieve this, then no need to goes further.
However, this is a technique that has been used before 20 years ago! The "pulling" concept is largely concept and centers its emphasis on that of how one would hold a hammer to hammer a nail.
PUSH STROKE: It's start out about the same time with NICK B "Killer forehand" in a book of Oscar Wegner "you can play tennis in 2 hours" with his comment: "find the ball and push it".
Find the ball and push it? Is that what he said? Tell me what pro "finds the ball and pushes it". Let's start here...
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w
No body really pay attention to what he say, myself included because we think push here he means use your hand or your body to push the ball.
Largely nobody paid attention because his teaching is for beginners.
A decade latter it's Dough King who reintroduce the push concept in his article" Hands have it" at Tennis one. The success of push stroke start with WTA players, begin with Williams sister and spread out widely even to all Junior player lately with its (push) signature: a huge loop.
Do you mean Doug King? I have wrote to him about this article a long time ago on "the hands have it" and disagreed with his article in a couple areas regarding the tennis stroke, motion, and that "the hands have it" alone. He agreed that the tennis stroke is more complex and knows there is both a pull and push motion in whatever degree and emphasis a players has in the stroke. Some players will emphasize more of one then the other during the execution of the stroke! However, he did say the article was limited and he couldnt write everything he wanted to say because the article would have been too long.
Needless to say, there is more about what Doug thinks then just taking the article at face value.
PUSH here does not means you use you hand or your elbow or anything you can use to push the ball. Push here is a concept of utilize whole your BODY MASS behind the string bed to create ball speed (not racket speed).
Whatever you want to call it, it is about rotating the back shoulder into the ball and through contact. It is about utlizing the non-dominant arm to control rotation so as much energy being created goes into the ball. If you want to repackage it into PUSHING, go right ahead. It still boils down to the same darn thing.
it use the compress ball and string bed deformation to store energy then bounce back. the time that ball stay long on the spring bed dictate power and control as a old tip we learn: keep the ball on the racket long time or hit THRU the ball. To verify time is involved in the outcome, the theory of Impact of two SOLID object that we all learn in college physic should modified in Impact of two SOFT object by using advanced calculus.
What are you talking about!? You are making the tennis stroke so darn complicated. The tennis ball is on the strings for only 4 milliseconds. Are you serious? Do you really believe that you are actually controlling the ball while it is on the strings for that short of a time? Please tell me you do so I can prepare my next post.
Then how do you create the push: simply put it: put your whole body behind the string bed: make your body a solid mass, do not have any disconnection between any part of your body, elbow, wrist, shoulder. But that is out of the purpose of this thread.
No it is not out of the purpose of the thread, just a weird way of saying you need to hit through the ball. LOL
pushing_wins
07-07-2009, 08:25 AM
If the arm/elbow is behind the plane of the body (such as when you are getting ready to bring the racquet forward) you are going to have more of a "pulling" motion. When the arm/elbow gets in front of the body plane, you are going to have more of a "pushing" motion. However, even the degree of each throughout the stroke is up for debate.
ho
according to you, arm/elbow ahead of body is a push ?!?!
ho
according to you, arm/elbow ahead of body is a push ?!?!
i'm glad that you bring this thread back. I do not want to dicuss anything with people that not willing to learn, impolite and do not have enough brain power to understand average logical physic law.
Since you show yourseft none of that i will answer you:
PUSH stroke is just about only body rotation, there is NO HAND on it, absolutely. until the ball is struck.
If your hand move independently with your body rotation: no power.
I will answer you slowly, if i go into detail, it will get complicated. thanks for asking me.
larry10s
07-07-2009, 09:04 AM
I think we went through this already. Why is this difficult to understand?
If the arm/elbow is behind the plane of the body (such as when you are getting ready to bring the racquet forward) you are going to have more of a "pulling" motion. When the arm/elbow gets in front of the body plane, you are going to have more of a "pushing" motion. However, even the degree of each throughout the stroke is up for debate.
However, this is a technique that has been used before 20 years ago! The "pulling" concept is largely concept and centers its emphasis on that of how one would hold a hammer to hammer a nail.
Find the ball and push it? Is that what he said? Tell me what pro "finds the ball and pushes it". Let's start here...
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w
Largely nobody paid attention because his teaching is for beginners.
Do you mean Doug King? I have wrote to him about this article a long time ago on "the hands have it" and disagreed with his article in a couple areas regarding the tennis stroke, motion, and that "the hands have it" alone. He agreed that the tennis stroke is more complex and knows there is both a pull and push motion in whatever degree and emphasis a players has in the stroke. Some players will emphasize more of one then the other during the execution of the stroke! However, he did say the article was limited and he couldnt write everything he wanted to say because the article would have been too long.
Needless to say, there is more about what Doug thinks then just taking the article at face value.
Whatever you want to call it, it is about rotating the back shoulder into the ball and through contact. It is about utlizing the non-dominant arm to control rotation so as much energy being created goes into the ball. If you want to repackage it into PUSHING, go right ahead. It still boils down to the same darn thing.
What are you talking about!? You are making the tennis stroke so darn complicated. The tennis ball is on the strings for only 4 milliseconds. Are you serious? Do you really believe that you are actually controlling the ball while it is on the strings for that short of a time? Please tell me you do so I can prepare my next post.
No it is not out of the purpose of the thread, just a weird way of saying you need to hit through the ball. LOL
from the time i read your backhand article a long time ago and follow your posts here i have always learned alot and appreciate your analytical straightfoward answers. you have helped me understand many aspects of tennis and improved my game. thanks bungalo bill.
pushing_wins
07-07-2009, 09:24 AM
i'm glad that you bring this thread back. I do not want to dicuss anything with people that not willing to learn, impolite and do not have enough brain power to understand average logical physic law.
Since you show yourseft none of that i will answer you:
PUSH stroke is just about only body rotation, there is NO HAND on it, absolutely. until the ball is struck.
If your hand move independently with your body rotation: no power.
I will answer you slowly, if i go into detail, it will get complicated. thanks for asking me.
lets try this again
ho:
arm ahead of body is a pull. as per your comments on the roddick thread.
BB:
arm ahead of body is a push.
i agree with BB.
lets try this again
ho:
arm ahead of body is a pull. as per your comments on the roddick thread.
BB:
arm ahead of body is a push.
i agree with BB.
let look at the motion of the arm in pull stroke: it start behind the shoulder at the forward motion: the shoulder will pull the arm forward, arm trails shoulder, near contact, body slow down, arm will snap up and hit the ball far out: ahead or behind body ???
thanks you for asking, i 'm more than humbly answer your question, and i'm confident that i will satisfy you.
Blake0
07-07-2009, 09:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk
So those 2 are pull strokes, right?
What would be a push stroke? :confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk
So those 2 are pull strokes, right?
What would be a push stroke? :confused:
i'm sorry mr Blake, my computer do not have enough memories. if you described, i can confidently anwser yours question.
kanjii
07-07-2009, 02:37 PM
So basically pull stroke is a baseball bat swing motion...twist of the hips followed by the shoulder, elbow, wrist = homerun. That's all you had to say :)
Push is like playing defense in table tennis, pushing the ball back.
Blake0
07-07-2009, 08:04 PM
Federer and nadal have pull strokes, right?
Which pro uses push strokes?
Or do pro's use whichever one is better in a certain situation?
Brief description on how people hit push strokes please? very confusing.
Sorry for all the questions, just a very confusing topic atm for me :-|.
Federer and nadal have pull strokes, right?
Which pro uses push strokes?
Or do pro's use whichever one is better in a certain situation?
Brief description on how people hit push strokes please? very confusing.
Sorry for all the questions, just a very confusing topic atm for me :-|.
most male pro use pull stroke, few use push stroke: Del Potro, Moya, and a few. Fererer and Nadal and a long list use pull stroke.
most female pro use push stroke except Hennin and a very few.
Very few time you see they use different stroke, most of the time use the same that they are accustomed of. it not easy to change back and forth, since the concept is totally different, not to say that is opposite.
you can see WTA pro on the TV sometime they have slow motion. Very easy, the most simple stroke that you can think of. only Body rotation, NO ARM, hit on the side that all i can described as much as complicated possible.
Mr Blake, i am more than happy to answer you, i like to humbly share the fruit of my thinking with people who WANT TO KNOW not with people who DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW.
So basically pull stroke is a baseball bat swing motion...twist of the hips followed by the shoulder, elbow, wrist = homerun. That's all you had to say :)
Push is like playing defense in table tennis, pushing the ball back.
it will take a long post to analyse PULL and PUSH. but the shortest way to described in PULL is you PULL your racket by your body rotation thru contact zone.
No push don't mean push the ball back with arm at all. the shortest way to described is only body rotation, there is NO ARM involve in in it until the ball is struck.
feel free to ask, mr kanjii. i think i can confidently humblely answer your question .
NamRanger
07-08-2009, 07:13 AM
most male pro use pull stroke, few use push stroke: Del Potro, Moya, and a few. Fererer and Nadal and a long list use pull stroke.
most female pro use push stroke except Hennin and a very few.
Very few time you see they use different stroke, most of the time use the same that they are accustomed of. it not easy to change back and forth, since the concept is totally different, not to say that is opposite.
you can see WTA pro on the TV sometime they have slow motion. Very easy, the most simple stroke that you can think of. only Body rotation, NO ARM, hit on the side that all i can described as much as complicated possible.
Mr Blake, i am more than happy to answer you, i like to humbly share the fruit of my thinking with people who WANT TO KNOW not with people who DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO NOT KNOW.
This is so wrong in many ways. Most male players use many variations of a forehand, and although some have their own signature technique (such as Nadal and Federer), it is an impossibility to totally classify someone's forehand as "push" or "pull".
origmarm
07-08-2009, 07:21 AM
I vote this the most confusing thread ever.
Despite having read this three times I find it very unclear. Does anyone have a link to an article or similar that runs through this?
This is so wrong in many ways. Most male players use many variations of a forehand, and although some have their own signature technique (such as Nadal and Federer), it is an impossibility to totally classify someone's forehand as "push" or "pull".
most player use many variation of their forehand, i agree, but they basicly stick to their concept: PUSH or PULL. due to all respect, you may look at hitech-tennis.com, they teach pull, and tennisone. they teach push. or many website around to learn pull and push before comming in a brief conclusion.
i am 100% confident that i can tell some pro use PUSH or PULL as long as you build your knowledge to understand on these different stroke.
NamRanger
07-08-2009, 07:23 AM
I vote this the most confusing thread ever.
Despite having read this three times I find it very unclear. Does anyone have a link to an article or similar that runs through this?
Just ignore it; there is nothing in here that will help you become a better tennis player. Most of this is what I like to call "scientific tennis" where it's nice to know, but you don't need to know it to become a better player.
NamRanger
07-08-2009, 07:24 AM
most player use many variation of their forehand, i agree, but they basicly stick to their concept: PUSH or PULL. due to all respect, you may look at hitech-tennis.com, they teach pull, and tennisone. they teach push. or many website around to learn pull and push before comming in a brief conclusion.
i am 100% confident that i can tell some pro use PUSH or PULL as long as you build your knowledge to understand on these different stroke.
Moya has a large degree of pulling in his forehand, as do many "push" male players. You are so off base it's not even funny.
I vote this the most confusing thread ever.
Despite having read this three times I find it very unclear. Does anyone have a link to an article or similar that runs through this?
hang in there, the push stroke have been introduced more than 10 years, and it give williams sister many many grand slam. you may check around, off my head there is several website, but not as scientificly analysed as i humblely do.
Moya has a large degree of pulling in his forehand, as do many "push" male players. You are so off base it's not even funny.
we come here to learn, not to humiliate anybody. in case we have different look, just say so. and stop there. there is no need to continue the discussion.
NamRanger
07-08-2009, 07:41 AM
we come here to learn, not to humiliate anybody. in case we have different look, just say so. and stop there. there is no need to continue the discussion.
No, I'm just pointing out that you don't actually know what you are talking about. You cannot just "classify" things in such a simple way. Every professional player has many different variations, and no one ever sticks to "push/pull". Do you actually think they are consciously out there thinking about these things, or even drilling them in practice? No. It is up in the air as to who uses what. It is also up in the air to what they actually use.
No, I'm just pointing out that you don't actually know what you are talking about. You cannot just "classify" things in such a simple way. Every professional player has many different variations, and no one ever sticks to "push/pull". Do you actually think they are consciously out there thinking about these things, or even drilling them in practice? No. It is up in the air as to who uses what. It is also up in the air to what they actually use.
thanks for clarify, thanks again, YES, Mr Nam, i do know what i'm talking about, as much as i know physic laws apply to any body, human, animal, object...
Professional have many variation on their stroke, I AGREE, but mostly they stick to the CONCEPT, push or pull. in certain case, there no time, too close, they have to change they stroke.
NamRanger
07-08-2009, 09:20 AM
thanks for clarify, thanks again, YES, Mr Nam, i do know what i'm talking about, as much as i know physic laws apply to any body, human, animal, object...
Professional have many variation on their stroke, I AGREE, but mostly they stick to the CONCEPT, push or pull. in certain case, there no time, too close, they have to change they stroke.
Physics does not apply to the body so simply. The body is very complex, and it's very hard to accurately apply physics to it. It's not so simple, as bio mechanics are involved also.
They do not stick to a simple concept as push or pull. Federer literally has numerous variations on his forehand, all for different shots, from different positions, etc.
You are over complicating two of the most simple strokes in tennis. Push, pull, etc. There is no need for these terminologies other than for people like Yandell who finds interest in such things. An amateur player, and most professional players do not think in such scientific terms. They are thinking about making SOLID CONTACT.
Physics does not apply to the body so simply. The body is very complex, and it's very hard to accurately apply physics to it. It's not so simple, as bio mechanics are involved also.
They do not stick to a simple concept as push or pull. Federer literally has numerous variations on his forehand, all for different shots, from different positions, etc.
You are over complicating two of the most simple strokes in tennis. Push, pull, etc. There is no need for these terminologies other than for people like Yandell who finds interest in such things. An amateur player, and most professional players do not think in such scientific terms. They are thinking about making SOLID CONTACT.
thanks Mr Nam, i rest my case with you
pushing_wins
07-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Physics does not apply to the body so simply. The body is very complex, and it's very hard to accurately apply physics to it. It's not so simple, as bio mechanics are involved also.
They do not stick to a simple concept as push or pull. Federer literally has numerous variations on his forehand, all for different shots, from different positions, etc.
You are over complicating two of the most simple strokes in tennis. Push, pull, etc. There is no need for these terminologies other than for people like Yandell who finds interest in such things. An amateur player, and most professional players do not think in such scientific terms. They are thinking about making SOLID CONTACT.
a hack visualization of solid contact is different from a pro's visualization of sold contact.
thats why they are pros. it came to them naturally.
the rest of us , we have to think and learn it.
you proved that you are an idiot
think solid contact and hope and you have a atp forehand
Bungalo Bill
07-10-2009, 07:37 AM
a hack visualization of solid contact is different from a pro's visualization of sold contact.
thats why they are pros. it came to them naturally.
the rest of us , we have to think and learn it.
you proved that you are an idiot
think solid contact and hope and you have a atp forehand
The only idiot here is you. "Pros" have to think and learn things also. Sounds like you have never coached.
NamRanger
07-10-2009, 09:00 AM
a hack visualization of solid contact is different from a pro's visualization of sold contact.
thats why they are pros. it came to them naturally.
the rest of us , we have to think and learn it.
you proved that you are an idiot
think solid contact and hope and you have a atp forehand
What does a professional player think when he gets onto the court?
He thinks these things :
1. I need to make solid contact
2. I need to hit the ball deep
3. I need to hit the ball with control
4. I need to hit with spin
5. I need to hit with power
These are the 5 things that a professional player, and any amateur player will be thinking (or should be thinking) when they step onto the court. A professional tennis player is no different from me or you. They simply have had thousands upon thousands of hours of working and honing their skills.
The push/pull concept over complicates things. There is no need to know these things. I can teach ANYONE how to hit a windshield wiper forehand with good pace within a few weeks without ever referring to the push/pull concept.
bhupaes
07-10-2009, 10:34 AM
Really confusing thread - I am going bonkers pondering over whether a pusher can be a puller... :)
Lotto
07-10-2009, 10:44 AM
Get Jeff Counts in here. He'll explain this and clear up all of this!
Bungalo Bill
07-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Really confusing thread - I am going bonkers pondering over whether a pusher can be a puller... :)
I have never taught anyone this push/pull stuff - never. And I am definetly not saying I am dishing John Yandell (my friend) on this whatsoever. I am wondering if he really meant to emphasize this so much because this doesn't seem like his teaching. However, it does seem like someone took this too an extreme.
If you just simply teach the several positions the arm takes shape through the swing, rhythm and motion should be the next thing they learn along with movmement, relaxation, positioning, etc....Preparation, movement, rhythm, focus, etc...is far far more important.
All of this is centered around:
1. Making clean contact through the ball.
2. Timing.
If we get hung up on more refined aspects of the swing, you will lose focus on the two objective above. Make sure all of your movement, positioning, and stroke motion is about the two things above.
user92626
07-10-2009, 03:09 PM
Bill's #1,2 are good, but let me ask you a question.
Do you think it's a good and essential idea to ask a learner to try and understand a bit about the basic physics of hitting the ball (this isn't about pull/push anymore)?
I mean, I play with these two guys who just won't get the idea that they have to hit more behind the ball (instead of underneath it), more horizontal path and end the racket more or less around shoulder (instead of a golf-like swing). They already have ok timing (they get to the shot alrite), ok contact that they don't frame the ball, but their balls keep going way long, and I joked that they should take up golf given how they swing!
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.