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2nd_Serve
09-05-2008, 10:38 PM
Which one would you get and why?

I'm a high school student taking Computer Science 1 AP, and plan on taking Computer Science 2 AP.

I also plan on using it on college.

So .... It's for a student. Which is better?

And btw, I've never tried a mac before.

Feņa14
09-05-2008, 10:44 PM
Well, is there anything you don't like about Windows?

I got tired of the maintenance and things misbehaving so switched to a Mac, it probably took me a bit longer than most to get used to, but now I can't imagine using anything else.

Go down to the Apple store and have a little play around, you could probably get a nice student discount too.

abenguyen
09-05-2008, 11:01 PM
honestly pc's have so many issues it really gonna either be the same or a little more in keeping them working 'well'. though honestly i just got a new laptop that i'm using now for $650(split 1/2 with parents) and its been working great.

its got 3gb ram, 250gb hard drive, nvidia graphics 7150, 15.4 in screen, vista 32-bit home premium and its been working extremely well.

though MAC's are just plain awesome, if i could have the option of either, i'd have both

mucat
09-05-2008, 11:02 PM
If it is for computer science, PC is the way to go. There are so many software tools and hardwares to play with, you will forget about getting a girlfriend in no time.

mucat
09-05-2008, 11:05 PM
honestly pc's have so many issues it really gonna either be the same or a little more in keeping them working 'well'. though honestly i just got a new laptop that i'm using now for $650(split 1/2 with parents) and its been working great.

its got 3gb ram, 250gb hard drive, nvidia graphics 7150, 15.4 in screen, vista 32-bit home premium and its been working extremely well.

though MAC's are just plain awesome, if i could have the option of either, i'd have both

"PC" does not have issues. PC is the hardware. Heck, Mac uses PC hardwares nowaday.

sawedust
09-05-2008, 11:10 PM
CSCI majors are better suited to work with PC.

Anything on the technical side, PC is preferred.

Anything on the creative side, Mac is preferred.

Ultimately, it's up to personal preference. I use a PC at home and a Mac at work.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 09:29 AM
Many better universities teach with Unix (or a variant). Some college professors will flunk your program submissions if there is any sign that it was done on a Windows system.

I see a lot of professional software engineers using Macs today - especially in the open source world.

superstition
09-06-2008, 11:00 AM
CSCI majors are better suited to work with PC.

Anything on the technical side, PC is preferred.

Anything on the creative side, Mac is preferred.

Ultimately, it's up to personal preference. I use a PC at home and a Mac at work.
No, Macs run Windows natively now. In fact, if you use Apple's Boot Camp software (an idiotic name, btw), you get a screen with two nice boxes that let you choose Windows or OS X at log-in.

Is OS X better than Vista? Yes. Will you need to have Windows installed for many games? Yes. (Stick with XP.)

abenguyen
09-06-2008, 11:15 AM
"PC" does not have issues. PC is the hardware. Heck, Mac uses PC hardwares nowaday.

sorry let me rephrase what i said.

microsoft pc's occasionally have issues but not anything big.

like a previous poster said, Mac is on the creative side, anything photoshop, movie maker all that stuff, but microsoft pc's can do that too if you get programs. pc's also work better for videogames if you are a gamer. you can play games on mac's too but you just have too look a little for them

Hot Sauce
09-06-2008, 11:25 AM
PC, baby. Much cheaper, and they have better programming/customization software.

superstition
09-06-2008, 11:42 AM
Much cheaper
This is debatable. I personally feel the solid metal case, which acts like a heat sink and protects the motherboard from plastic case flex, the LED backlighting, high-quality keyboard and trackpad, and other features of my MacBook Pro are worth what I paid for it. Plus, the ability to run OS X as well as Windows is worth some additional cost. Given that "PCs" can't run OS X without significant hacking (and then usually have problems like lack of sleep mode), there is a steep additional cost involved in buying a "PC" if you want to run OS X, eh?

, and they have better programming/customization software.
Macs run Windows natively, but OS X is a better general-purpose OS than Vista.

LanEvo
09-06-2008, 11:42 AM
PC, because its easier to use, Apple sux, i hate the mouse also one button click, wth 2 buttons is so much better also Windows format is easier to use

superstition
09-06-2008, 11:44 AM
i hate the mouse also one button click, wth 2 buttons is so much better also Windows format is easier to use
All Macs come two two-button trackpads and mice. My MacBook Pro even has a three finger control trackpad. Try again.

superstition
09-06-2008, 11:47 AM
The "Mac vs. PC" debate is dead. Macs are PCs, only with the ability to run OS X without hacking.

That's it. That's the only difference, aside from the feature set of the hardware.

Is it worth it to pay a bit extra to get native OS X? Absolutely it my opinion. If all you're going to do is play games, though, it's not worth it.

0range
09-06-2008, 11:53 AM
Competition for market/user base will only make both better.

Hot Sauce
09-06-2008, 12:08 PM
This is debatable. I personally feel the solid metal case, which acts like a heat sink and protects the motherboard from plastic case flex, the LED backlighting, high-quality keyboard and trackpad, and other features of my MacBook Pro are worth what I paid for it. Plus, the ability to run OS X as well as Windows is worth some additional cost. Given that "PCs" can't run OS X without significant hacking (and then usually have problems like lack of sleep mode), there is a steep additional cost involved in buying a "PC" if you want to run OS X, eh?


Macs run Windows natively, but OS X is a better general-purpose OS than Vista.

The price isn't really debatable. PC's are generally much cheaper than Macs. Macs are probably built better (with the features you have listed), but as far as I know, they don't have the option of cheaper notebooks that college and university students could be looking for. In my opinion, it really comes down to preference of the user when choosing between a Mac or PC notebook in the same price range. I don't know why anyone would want to run OS X on a PC, though. XP or Vista do just fine.

Hot Sauce
09-06-2008, 12:09 PM
All Macs come two two-button trackpads and mice. My MacBook Pro even has a three finger control trackpad. Try again.

Can Macs use any mice or does it have to be exclusively the Apple ones?

shavenyak
09-06-2008, 12:12 PM
I was a PC user since DOS. When I went back to school I bought a Mac and I'm happy as a clam. I use Boot Camp to run windows XP for gaming, which it does fantastically well (Macbook Pro), and use OSX for anything else. With the ability to run pretty much any OS you want on it's own partition, it's a great machine for Computer Science, IMHO.

shavenyak
09-06-2008, 12:13 PM
The price isn't really debatable. PC's are generally much cheaper than Macs. Macs are probably built better (with the features you have listed), but as far as I know, they don't have the option of cheaper notebooks that college and university students could be looking for. In my opinion, it really comes down to preference of the user when choosing between a Mac or PC notebook in the same price range. I don't know why anyone would want to run OS X on a PC, though. XP or Vista do just fine.

It is debatable if you compare quality component specs.

shavenyak
09-06-2008, 12:14 PM
Can Macs use any mice or does it have to be exclusively the Apple ones?

OSX has the drivers for evey mouse made built in, so if you want to plug in your 17 button logitec gaming mouse, it will run it just fine.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:21 PM
Can Macs use any mice or does it have to be exclusively the Apple ones?
I guess since you're not very familiar with Macs you shouldn't state that the price issue isn't debatable.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:26 PM
It is debatable if you compare quality component specs.
The biggest issues are the operating system support and component choices. "PCs" can't run OS X without hacking and are unlikely to run it well enough to make laptop use viable. A Mac run both operating systems flawlessly, with even a convenient log-in screen as I mentioned with a single-click choice between the two. Metal encased laptops aren't common in the market. I think Sony may make one and has an even more expensive carbon fiber model. A metal case provides rigidity to protect system components from flex when the laptop is transported, which is important. It also acts like a heat sink which keeps fan noise down. LED backlighting saves a bit of energy and should last longer than conventional fluorescent bulb backlights. Fit and finish is an area Apple excels in. Even the power cord is a superior design that's magnetic so if you bump it it simply will detach, preventing the common "loose power cord" syndrome that causes major problems for many laptop users.

As for OS X, it's a much less "in your face" operating system than Windows. It doesn't have the horrific "I threw up blue everywhere" look of XP, or the harassing of little messages popping up about unused icons and other crap. It doesn't have DRM like Vista that slows the system to a crawl, either.

william7gr
09-06-2008, 12:30 PM
Go to your local apple store http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/ and try a mac out use all of the features and ask someone about some of the cool things it can do and you will love it. BTW I love my Macbook Pro

crazytennis
09-06-2008, 12:33 PM
All Macs come two two-button trackpads and mice. My MacBook Pro even has a three finger control trackpad. Try again.

Two button trackpads, when did they come up with that ? Care for a picture ? Last time I checked , like 1/2 minute ago, they still didn't have that.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 12:33 PM
Can Macs use any mice or does it have to be exclusively the Apple ones?

They can use any mice. I actually don't like the Apple mice and I actually prefer Microsoft-branded mice to Apple mice.

WBF
09-06-2008, 12:35 PM
If you know anything about hardware, the best bet would be to simply build your own. Cheapest, ensures you can put exactly what you want in, and very easy to do. My guess is that your prof. will encourage Windows or a Unix variant. I would be very hesitant to go with a Mac (started my undergrad as a CSC student, just got done with courses for a masters at RIT - not in CSC, but had experience with some of the profs and students)... Unless you plan on using it for personal use only (not school). If you are a fan of Apple's locked down hardware strategy, and don't have any need or interest in picking the components yourself, or are simply a big OS X fan, Superstition does have a good point... I just personally think it is too expensive and locked-in for my tastes.

Superstition does bring up some very silly points though, like 'protecting from flex', and claiming that DRM slows vista to a crawl (****ing ******** man, why post that crap? there is enough FUD being spread without your help)

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:37 PM
Two button trackpads, when did they come up with that ? Care for a picture ? Last time I checked , like 1/2 minute ago, they still didn't have that.
There is no way to take a picture of a trackpad and show that it can use up to three finger operation. You'll have to find an illustration.

Besides, studies have found that new users are confused by two buttons and most PC users never use the second button. Given that the trackpad has up to three finger operation (I use the two finger scroll function a lot), there's no lack of functionality.

mlee2
09-06-2008, 12:38 PM
If you work or plan to work in the educational field, there's a lot of software out there only for Windows. Stats programs, CADs, etc.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:39 PM
Superstition does bring up some very silly points though, like 'protecting from flex',
It's not silly at all. I had an iBook with a plastic case and the flex from moving it around when taking it to classes caused the motherboard to eventually fail. Metal cases protect motherboards better.

and claiming that DRM slows vista to a crawl (****ing ******** man, why post that crap? there is enough FUD being spread without your help)
Vista has been found to run games more slowly than XP and people have credited its DRM (increased overhead). In any case, other articles I've seen about Vista from PC users complain about the intrusiveness of the DRM.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:40 PM
If you work or plan to work in the educational field, there's a lot of software out there only for Windows. Stats programs, CADs, etc.
All of which can be run on a Mac since Macs can run Windows natively. You can also run Windows in a Window with Parallels.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:40 PM
If you know anything about hardware, the best bet would be to simply build your own. Cheapest, ensures you can put exactly what you want in, and very easy to do.
You build your own laptops?

movdqa
09-06-2008, 12:41 PM
PC, baby. Much cheaper, and they have better programming/customization software.

Microsoft Developer Studio Professional tools run about $1,300. Apple's developer tools are free. And they're included on the CD. Though it's best to update them with the latest versions.

Software Professionals that have to develop on the three big platforms (OSX, Linux, Windows) typically find that you're better off with a Linux codebase store with client development tools. It's easier to use native Unix tools than it is to use a hacked-together Windows environment.

Hot Sauce
09-06-2008, 12:42 PM
I guess since you're not very familiar with Macs you shouldn't state that the price issue isn't debatable.

Yes.. because not knowing which mice Mac's can use furthermore means that I don't know the price of PC and Mac notebooks. Some top notch logic there. I said PC notebooks are cheaper than Macs, you responded by saying Macs are better built, thus they are not cheaper? Again, some top notch logic. I guess since you are not familiar with logic and reasoning, you shouldn't state anything. A one dollar pile of sh*t is cheaper than a 2,000 dollar Macbook, regardless of quality.

You can find 400-500 dollar Dell notebooks that are perfect for University students. They're very popular.

southpaw
09-06-2008, 12:42 PM
Computer science should be either mac or linux. The open source world is an invaluable resource to students and Windows makes it difficult to use many of the tools available there.

On the other hand, if you are interested in more of a Business/IT program then Windows is the way to go.

crazytennis
09-06-2008, 12:42 PM
There is no way to take a picture of a trackpad and show that it can use up to three finger operation. You'll have to find an illustration.

Besides, studies have found that new users are confused by two buttons and most PC users never use the second button. Given that the trackpad has up to three finger operation (I use the two finger scroll function a lot), there's no lack of functionality.

I didn't say it couldn't use three fingers. I'm just saying they don't have a 2 button trackpad which you claimed and asked the other user to try again. It's the right clicking function that the 2 button trackpad does(the second button does it , and no i'm not talking about control clicking). If you write something wrong, atleast man up and don't invent studies.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Yes.. because not knowing which mice Mac's can use furthermore means that I don't know the price of PC and Mac notebooks. Some top notch logic there.
Price is a matter of ratio between functionality and cash. If you don't know the functionality, you don't know the functionality part of the ratio, making value determination unfeasible.

This is why I tell everyone to look at the cost per ounce when buying groceries before looking at the price tag.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:45 PM
I didn't say it couldn't use three fingers. I'm just saying they don't have a 2 button trackpad which you claimed and asked the other user to try again. It's the right clicking function that the 2 button trackpad does(the second button does it , and no i'm not talking about control clicking). If you write something wrong, atleast man up and don't invent studies.
If you press two fingers down on the trackpad at the same time, you get a "right" click.

Hot Sauce
09-06-2008, 12:47 PM
Price is the cost of something. It has no other implications. Dishing out more money on a product does not necessarily mean you are getting a better quality product.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 12:48 PM
I have three MacBook Pros. They all have one-button trackpads.

But they do have built-in mouse-gestures. What you'd expect from the company that introduced them in the iPod Touch. Interestingly enough, the trackpad mouse gestures also work in Windows via Boot Camp. Apple's made a lot of excuses for the one-button mouse. But a lot of people hate it and just buy a Microsoft mouse to use two, three, four, five buttons.

I went to the Mozilla 2008 Summit at Whistler, BC and I've never seen so many MacBook Pros in my life. You get the unix environment without all of the maintenance issues. And you can run all three major operating systems from one hardware platform. The engineers there use their MacBook Pros as if they were an extension of their arm.

crazytennis
09-06-2008, 12:48 PM
If you press two fingers down on the trackpad at the same time, you get a "right" click.

Not the two finger tap, not the two finger touch and right click, just a second button.

It's not the different ways you can do it, you maybe able to do it in 15 ways, you said they come with two buttons when they don't.

And all the made of metal things, does that apply to Macbooks as well ?

crazytennis
09-06-2008, 12:49 PM
I have three MacBook Pros. They all have one-button trackpads.

But they do have built-in mouse-gestures. .

That's what I've been trying to say, he doesn't want to agree.

superstition
09-06-2008, 12:53 PM
It's not the different ways you can do it, you maybe able to do it in 15 ways, you said they come with two buttons when they don't.
The mice come with two buttons and the track pad comes with (virtual) buttons (in the pad). The functionality is there, and it's part of the track pad.

Given that the primary click is used the vast majority of the time, having one large physical button below the touch pad makes sense. And, I almost never use it. I use the touch pad's buttons for primary click, secondary click, and scroll.

Virtual buttons are buttons. Just because they're not a big physical button doesn't mean they don't exist. Similarly, the Apple mice have two or one virtual buttons depending upon how you have your preferences configured. You're looking for a fight based on the assumption that buttons have to be visible to exist, which is fallacious reasoning.

If you're referring to older model Mac laptops no longer being sold, then you are correct. The trackpads have single-button functionality only.
And all the made of metal things, does that apply to Macbooks as well ?
The MacBook Pro line has metal cases, as you can see from the Apple Store online.

crazytennis
09-06-2008, 12:57 PM
The mice come with two buttons and the track pad comes with (virtual) buttons (in the pad). The functionality is there, and it's part of the track pad.

Given that the primary click is used the vast majority of the time, having one large physical button below the touch pad makes sense. And, I almost never use it. I use the touch pad's buttons for primary click, secondary click, and scroll.

Virtual buttons are buttons. Just because they're not a big physical button doesn't mean they don't exist. Similarly, the Apple mice have two or one virtual buttons depending upon how you have your preferences configured. You're looking for a fight based on the assumption that buttons have to be visible to exist, which is fallacious reasoning.

If you're referring to older model Mac laptops no longer being sold, then you are correct. The trackpads have single-button functionality only.

The MacBook Pro line has metal cases, as you can see from the Apple Store online.

Yeah, i know the Macbook Pros are metals but I said Macbooks(the white one, you know), I guess Macbooks don't have the flex protection you were talking about.

I won't even go with the trackpad thing anymore.

shavenstringer
09-06-2008, 12:58 PM
My wife has a macbook and I have a pc. Her hard drive has crashed twice. I haven't had any problems with my dell over the last 3 years. I guess it all comes down to personal choice and being a little lucky. Some computers just don't hold up as well as others. Mac's do have a much better track record when it comes to reliability.

WBF
09-06-2008, 01:00 PM
What you'd expect from the company that introduced them in the iPod Touch.

Apple fans are irritating. Apple invented mouse gestures? WTF?

Superstition: My comments on building were relegated to desktops. I saw no indication of requiring a laptop. Your flex comment on laptops was ridiculous though. I mean, what the ****? I've had the same plastic laptop for many years. I've never had a problem. I don't know ANYONE whose had a problem with "flex". Yet you point to it as a reason to go Apple? It shows a bit of bias.

For the record, I do like OS X as an OS. While no OS is inherently the best or better than their competition, OS X fits the needs of many users. My problem is with Apple's stance of closing the hardware, and their closed, proprietary nature for nearly all of their products and services.

superstition
09-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Yeah, i know the Macbook Pros are metals but I said Macbooks(the white one, you know),
And I've been discussing the MacBook Pro, you know. I've also making the point that one gets what one pays for.
I guess Macbooks don't have the flex protection you were talking about.
One gets what one pays for.

crazytennis
09-06-2008, 01:06 PM
I'm done here. See ya.

superstition
09-06-2008, 01:06 PM
Apple fans are irritating. Apple invented mouse gestures? WTF?

Who said that? What's irritating is the religiosity of some when discussing computer platforms.
Your flex comment on laptops was ridiculous though. I mean, what the ****? I've had the same plastic laptop for many years. I've never had a problem. I don't know ANYONE whose had a problem with "flex". Yet you point to it as a reason to go Apple? It shows a bit of bias.
It's not bias. You do know someone who has had the problem. Me. You can call me a liar if you like, but as a former full-time IT specialist, I know a few things about computers. I have also built a number of "PCs" and so forth. Your bias accusation is what's absurd, given that I have equal experience on the Windows platform and was the first at my university to roll out XP in a department.

superstition
09-06-2008, 01:07 PM
Apple introduced the flex protection on only the Macbook Pros and not the Macbooks. I guess , the flex protection is worth another 500$. I guess I better upgrade my Macbook to a MBP and get some aluminium sheets and cover the outside of the Dell I have.
One gets what one pays for. This isn't news.

You can also pay for an AppleCare warranty if you don't want to buy a MacBook Pro and are concerned about case flex.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 01:10 PM
"My wife has a macbook and I have a pc. Her hard drive has crashed twice."

It's not necessarily the hardware on disk crashes.

superstition
09-06-2008, 01:11 PM
"My wife has a macbook and I have a pc. Her hard drive has crashed twice." It's not necessarily the hardware on disk crashes.
As far as I know, aside from batteries, hard disks are the most failure-prone part of any laptop.

Solid state media is an exciting prospect that should yield a much lower failure rate and better performance. A solid state drive is available now for the MacBook Pro and other laptops, but right now the cost per gigabyte is high.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 01:15 PM
"Apple fans are irritating. Apple invented mouse gestures? WTF?"

Strawman. I have 13 computers. 4 are Macs. My last purchase was a Dell XPS M1330 for traveling.

"For the record, I do like OS X as an OS. While no OS is inherently the best or better than their competition, OS X fits the needs of many users. My problem is with Apple's stance of closing the hardware, and their closed, proprietary nature for nearly all of their products and services."

It provides them with control over hardware devices and drivers and so that there are fewer permutations of problems between hardware and software.

The closed, proprietary thing used to be common with larger systems too.

BTW, I still like VMS for security and consistency of the command line interface. Probably the least likely to have issues with malware given the ancient architecture.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 01:17 PM
As far as I know, aside from batteries, hard disks are the most failure-prone part of any laptop.

Solid state media is an exciting prospect that should yield a much lower failure rate and better performance. A solid state drive is available now for the MacBook Pro and other laptops, but right now the cost per gigabyte is high.

These days, I think that the most failure prone parts are nVidia Graphics Cards.

Dell and HP have extended the warranties for laptops with nVidia Graphics cards an extra year due to all of the laptop failures that they are seeing. The problem has been seen on MacBook Pros too. One of mine died recently and Apple replaced the motherboard at no charge despite it being out of warranty. At the moment, I won't buy any laptop with an nVidia graphics card until they state which batches are bad (some claim that they all are) and do a proper recall.

Shahar26
09-06-2008, 01:18 PM
Go with a PC, I hear you can get a free pizza...

superstition
09-06-2008, 01:23 PM
At the moment, I won't buy any laptop with an nVidia graphics card until they state which batches are bad (some claim that they all are) and do a proper recall.
I was disappointed that the generation of MacBook Pro I purchased has the 45 nanometer Intel CPU but a 90 nanometer nVidia GPU. The heat it generates when doing 3D is high, unlike the CPU. I don't know if Apple has switched to a 65 or 55 nanometer process GPU yet. The size of the GPU was really the only thing I didn't like about the purchase, but nothing is perfect. I looked for quite some time at the available "PC" alternatives.

At least the MacBook Pro has a metal case to help dissipate the heat. No wonder some of them are failing in plastic machines. I always purchase AppleCare when buying a laptop and highly recommend others do so. There are just too many things that can go wrong with any laptop, such as the bad capacitor problem that hit Toshiba, Apple, and others a few years back. Plus, we purchased two top of the line Dell laptops years ago for my department and they were complete lemons.

movdqa
09-06-2008, 01:44 PM
Dell had a bad patch a few years ago - no question about that but they have some pretty good designs right now. I bought my XPS M1330 with integrated video and for now, it's only ATI or integrated for now. I look forward to Intel releasing their Larrabee graphics card in a year or two. My understanding is that nVidia's fix was a hack and could have failures - just in a different way. They clearly didn't have enough time to completely test a fix.

The Apple MacBook Pro was the first machine failure that I've ever had. I have seven and eight year old laptops from Dell that work just fine. I'm using an external fan underneath the MacBook Pro right now. It does make a difference in GPU temperatures. I'm considering trying to build a vacuum-based cooler for the MacBook Pro.

CyBorg
09-06-2008, 02:07 PM
http://i36.tinypic.com/23m90j.gif

superstition
09-06-2008, 02:07 PM
My understanding is that nVidia's fix was a hack and could have failures - just in a different way. They clearly didn't have enough time to completely test a fix.
Fix for what, exactly?

The Apple MacBook Pro was the first machine failure that I've ever had.
Mine's been running fine for several months. Every product line has lemons which is why warranties are important.

I'm using an external fan underneath the MacBook Pro right now. It does make a difference in GPU temperatures. I'm considering trying to build a vacuum-based cooler for the MacBook Pro.
One thing users make the mistake of is thinking the MacBook Pro is overheating because it gets hot. Since the case acts as a heat sink, it's going to feel hot when the GPU is running full bore because the case itself is drawing heat out. Asus makes a laptop cooler that metal laptop owners can use (the laptop sits on it and it also is metal and draws the heat out I think), but I just put mine on some wire baking racks on my lap desk. It's inelegant, but I don't do enough 3D to justify buying anything. The machine is usually silent and cool because of the 45 nm CPU.

Hot Sauce
09-06-2008, 02:58 PM
http://i36.tinypic.com/23m90j.gif

Made me laugh :)

mucat
09-06-2008, 11:08 PM
Of the companies I worked with, from a programmer point of view, you will most like with with Unix (or Linux) and Windows environments. So far, I have not done anything specifically in Mac enironment, other than testing Web apps. I have not heard a client said, "I would like to do that on a Mac". My recommendation for computer science (software development) type usage is a PC.

xtremerunnerars
09-06-2008, 11:11 PM
Made me laugh :)



quoted for truth.



The debate will never end. People will fire cannon after cannon of sales figures and whatever, but don't listen to any of them.


Test them both out extensively. If you like PC, buy one. If you like Macs, buy one.


The above is the best advice you'll ever receive in the debate process.

Deuce
09-07-2008, 12:49 AM
Oh...
I thought this was a thread about one of the John McEnroe vs. Pat Cash clashes.
Sorry.

Carry on...

WBF
09-07-2008, 05:50 AM
Test them both out extensively. If you like PC, buy one. If you like Macs, buy one.


The above is the best advice you'll ever receive in the debate process.

++

I agree strongly; Although in this situation, it would be important to consider what OS the professor will prefer. While some are very open about what you use, some are stubborn enough to **** you over if you use anything but their preference.

movdqa
09-07-2008, 07:39 AM
Fix for what, exactly?

Mine's been running fine for several months. Every product line has lemons which is why warranties are important.

One thing users make the mistake of is thinking the MacBook Pro is overheating because it gets hot. Since the case acts as a heat sink, it's going to feel hot when the GPU is running full bore because the case itself is drawing heat out. Asus makes a laptop cooler that metal laptop owners can use (the laptop sits on it and it also is metal and draws the heat out I think), but I just put mine on some wire baking racks on my lap desk. It's inelegant, but I don't do enough 3D to justify buying anything. The machine is usually silent and cool because of the 45 nm CPU.

Not sure where you've been but this problem has been all over the tech news and notebook forums. Mine ran for a little over a year and then just died. I have a Dell XPS M1330 but it has Intel Integrated graphics. I see complaints on heat and laptop failures with nVidia cards all the time now.

I asked a friend of mine that's a specialist in CPU architecture, design, packaging and performance to look over Charlie's articles and he said that they were well-written and plausible and he provided a suggestion explaining the massive failure. Did you notice that nVidia took a $200 million charge recently for the GPU failures? If they did a proper recall, it would bankrupt the company.

WSJ: Chip Problems Haunt Nvidia, PC Makers
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121910081640451139.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

TG Daily: Nvidia GPU failures caused by material problem, sources claim
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/39045/135/

overclockers.com: nVidia: What Do You Do?
http://www.overclockers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4198:nvidia-what-do-you-do&catid=60:videocards

inquirer: Why Nvidia's chips are defective
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/09/01/why-nvidia-chips-defective

inquirer: Why Nvidia's duff chips are due to shoddy engineering
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/09/01/nvidia-should-defective-chips

inquirer: What Nvidia should do now
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/09/01/nv-should

Apple Discussions: MacBook Pro Blank Screen (Built - in & External)
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1478474&tstart=0

zdnet: Dell extends warranties after GPU fault
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39463022,00.htm

zdnet: MacBook Pro graphics chips failing prematurely
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=2108

inquirer: HP pays half for Nvidia's graphic problems
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/07/31/hp-pays-half-nvidia-problems

cnet: Summarizing the Nvidia problems with laptop chips overheating
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13554_3-10020782-33.html

The problem on laptops is with the cooling cycles on a laptop. nVidia used high-tin solder which is more brittle and susceptible to failure with a lot of cooling cycles. When it cracks, it damages the substrate and the GPU is toast. The recent hack is to switch to eutectic soldering but that carries its own risks. I spend a lot of time on an electrical engineering board and they know this stuff inside-out.

movdqa
09-07-2008, 07:45 AM
Of the companies I worked with, from a programmer point of view, you will most like with with Unix (or Linux) and Windows environments. So far, I have not done anything specifically in Mac enironment, other than testing Web apps. I have not heard a client said, "I would like to do that on a Mac". My recommendation for computer science (software development) type usage is a PC.

Mac support is common in Open Source projects.

The benefit of the Mac is that it runs Unix but you don't have to deal with the maintenance issues.

I work in a Linux shop and it's a nice environment for development but we have IT staff to maintain the systems running our development platform.

abenguyen
09-07-2008, 10:13 AM
http://i36.tinypic.com/23m90j.gif

lol made me rofl.

southpaw
09-07-2008, 10:51 AM
Of the companies I worked with, from a programmer point of view, you will most like with with Unix (or Linux) and Windows environments. So far, I have not done anything specifically in Mac enironment, other than testing Web apps. I have not heard a client said, "I would like to do that on a Mac". My recommendation for computer science (software development) type usage is a PC.

I'm not going to be as polite as movdqa. Mucat, you are wrong.
The choice the OP will have to make is between a unix environment and Windows.
Mac, Linux, BSD, Solaris,... are all unix based operating systems. Windows is not.

superstition
09-07-2008, 11:43 AM
The problem on laptops is with the cooling cycles on a laptop. nVidia used high-tin solder which is more brittle and susceptible to failure with a lot of cooling cycles. When it cracks, it damages the substrate and the GPU is toast. The recent hack is to switch to eutectic soldering but that carries its own risks. I spend a lot of time on an electrical engineering board and they know this stuff inside-out.
Thanks for the info. I haven't been following the tech news closely for a few months. Sometimes I take a break from it for a while.

I knew when I got the laptop that a 90 nm process was far from ideal, but didn't know about the solder. I haven't had any trouble so far and have the extended AppleCare warranty, so if I do have trouble, at least I'll be able to get a replacement. Perhaps by the time that happens, if it does, the GPU will have a shrunken process.

Here's one other laptop issue I saw recently:

Sony Recalls 73,000 Vaio Laptops Due To Burn Worry (http://slashdot.org/index.pl?issue=20080904)

"Sony is recalling 73,000 Vaio TZ laptops because of a possible manufacturing defect that may cause them to overheat, the US Consumer Product Safety Commission said Thursday. The recall relates to a problem with wiring near the computer's hinge, which could short-circuit and overheat in certain circumstances, perhaps burning the user.

It definitely pays to get an extended warranty for any laptop.

movdqa
09-07-2008, 02:58 PM
High-tin should have been high-lead.

The process is not the problem. The problems is material engineering. The solder points are at the board level; not the chip level.

I plan to add AppleCare to the two machines still under warranty. That's not an option for the other MacBook Pro. It's essentially a ticking time bomb.

superstition
09-07-2008, 04:40 PM
Lead makes solder brittle? I've never heard that before. Lead is a soft metal.

Dell has added an extra year's warranty to an extensive range of its laptops, following the discovery of a fault in the Nvidia graphics-processing units in some of those machines.

The affected notebooks include the following models: Dell Precision M2300; Dell Precision M4300; Dell Precision M65; Inspiron 1420; Latitude D620; Latitude D630; Latitude D630c; Latitude D820; Latitude D830; Vostro Notebook 1310; Vostro Notebook 1400; Vostro Notebook 1510; Vostro Notebook 1710; XPS M1330; and XPS M1530.

I wonder if Apple has a policy about this. I haven't checked into it.

movdqa
09-07-2008, 04:45 PM
This is an older article discussing the solder issue. The last three articles at the Inquirer go into a lot more detail.

According to our sources, the failures are caused by a solder bump that connects the I/O termination of the silicon chip to the pad on the substrate. In Nvidia’s GPUs, this solder bump is created using high-lead. A thermal mismatch between the chip and the substrate has substantially grown in recent chip generations, apparently leading to fatigue cracking. Add into the equation a growing chip size (double the chip dimension, quadruple the stress on the bump) as well as generally hotter chips and you may have the perfect storm to take high lead beyond its limits. Apparently, problems arise at what Nvidia claims to be “extreme temperatures” and what we hear may be temperatures not too much above 70 degrees Celsius.

What supports the theory that a high-lead solder bump in fact is at fault is the fact that Nvidia ordered an immediate switch to use eutectic solders instead of high-lead versions in the last week of July. Eutectic solders are believed to solve the problem of fatigue cracking. This material is often chosen in such cases as chip designers already have experience with this material. Further out in the future, chip designers will have to consider ROHS exclusions and a transition to lead free bumps using materials such as Tin-Silver. We are speculating here, but a sudden switch of the material could bring additional problems for Nvidia, as such a material switch involving electro-migration requires substantial design work and testing. As a minimum, Nvidia would have to review its power delivery to the chip to avoid high current bumps. We were not able to receive any information whether this has been done or not.

As far as we are told, ATI has been using eutectic solders for some time and appears not to be experiencing a similar problem. However, Nvidia’s sudden switch to eutectic solders may have limited the availability of the material, impacting AMD production and putting actual chip fabs in the middle. There are questions why Nvidia may have missed potential high-lead issues – and may have missed them for quite some time. There is no doubt that all Nvidia chips were tested according to JEDEC rules. Only Nvidia knows why this issue, if high-lead is actually the problem, slipped through.

If we assume for a moment that high-lead is the cause, then there is this question: Which chips are affected and are only notebook GPUs affected? According to our sources, both desktop chips and notebook chips are affected, but the issue is most likely to pop up in notebook chips due to the increased material constraints amplified by the turning on-and-off procedures. We heard that G84, G86 and G92 GPUs could show failures, but we were not able to confirm G94s. Technically, Nvidia would have to replace all those GPUs and the total number is somewhere north of 70 million. But since the issue tends to show up only in notebooks, it is unlikely that there will be any desktop replacements and therefore we are looking at a number closer to 15 million (notebook) GPUs. Take into account that the repair of such a notebook will cost Nvidia at least $150-$250 and you have a damage that could easily be in the billions of dollars.

At this time we only know that Nvidia has made a switch from high-lead to eutectic, everything else is speculation as long as it is not confirmed by Nvidia. However, the detail of information relating to the material switch is surprising and lends a certain credibility to these sources.

mucat
09-07-2008, 11:46 PM
Of the companies I worked with, from a programmer point of view, you will most like with with Unix (or Linux) and Windows environments. So far, I have not done anything specifically in Mac enironment, other than testing Web apps. I have not heard a client said, "I would like to do that on a Mac". My recommendation for computer science (software development) type usage is a PC.

I'm not going to be as polite as movdqa. Mucat, you are wrong.
The choice the OP will have to make is between a unix environment and Windows.
Mac, Linux, BSD, Solaris,... are all unix based operating systems. Windows is not.

I don't know how I am wrong. But what I am thinking is set up a PC to dual boot Linux and Windows. The the OP can play around with both. Windows is still the dominating enironment. So it is important to learn the development tools in Windows.

The company I am working in now also have both Windows and Unix environment. I have to code on both enironment if it is needed.

Again, I am speaking from my experience, yours might be different. But I cannot be wrong about my experience??

shavenyak
09-07-2008, 11:48 PM
He could boot his mac to Windows, OSX, UNIX and even OS2Warp if he so desires.

superman1
09-08-2008, 12:00 AM
It's pretty simple. The PC is more powerful and harder to use. It constantly has problems and crashes and needs daily maintenance. That's why it's a man's machine, because we like fixing stuff. We don't like things to be too perfect, we like to have to open stuff up and mess around with it. So PC if you're a man, Mac if you're a woman.

shavenyak
09-08-2008, 12:02 AM
It's pretty simple. The PC is more powerful and harder to use. It constantly has problems and crashes and needs daily maintenance. That's why it's a man's machine, because we like fixing stuff. We don't like things to be too perfect, we like to have to open stuff up and mess around with it. So PC if you're a man, Mac if you're a woman.

That's great, except the hardware is pretty much the same. You just have to choose whether or not you like dealing with bugs all the time. Oh, and security patches, those too.

WBF
09-08-2008, 03:39 AM
That's funny, I don't deal with bugs, and I could have Windows automatically download security patches if I were interested (I'm not, people worry too much about security).

movdqa
09-08-2008, 04:28 AM
I don't know how I am wrong. But what I am thinking is set up a PC to dual boot Linux and Windows. The the OP can play around with both. Windows is still the dominating enironment. So it is important to learn the development tools in Windows.

The company I am working in now also have both Windows and Unix environment. I have to code on both enironment if it is needed.

Again, I am speaking from my experience, yours might be different. But I cannot be wrong about my experience??

In general, it's easier to have the code base in Unix than Windows as there are tools to make the Windows command shell look like Unix. If you're looking at big-time portability, Unix rules. My experience goes back to the mid-1980s.

southpaw
09-08-2008, 04:40 AM
Again, I am speaking from my experience, yours might be different. But I cannot be wrong about my experience??

I am not claiming one is better than the other, and I am not saying your experience is wrong, just trying to get the facts straight. Mac is Unix.

Polaris
09-08-2008, 06:42 AM
I love Ubuntu. Whether I buy a Mac or a PC, it will have a dual boot with Ubuntu.

gj011
09-08-2008, 06:50 AM
MAC is great but is simply way too expencive. PC is better value for money.

And as a software developer I agree that UNIX rules.

Trainer
09-08-2008, 07:02 AM
Try running Visual Studio on a Mac. Pain in the *****...

Look, macs cost more and I sure don't see why they are any better. For my uses, they offer absolutely nothing for the extra money. So why spend it?

I'm a Microsoft .NET developer, and my PC is running all sorts of customized web services, connects to multiple networks, has a dozen or so static routes, and never misses a beat. Maybe macs handle this too, but I'm sure they can't handle it better.

The nonsense about PC's crashing all the time? BS. I haven't rebooted my PC in over 2 months, and it went down then because of a power surge...

rommil
09-08-2008, 07:31 AM
The simplest way to settle this:


Federer fans- Mac
Nadal fans - PC
Roddick fans - Abacus

mucat
09-08-2008, 09:09 AM
The simplest way to settle this:


Federer fans- Mac
Nadal fans - PC
Roddick fans - Abacus


If you put it this way I might have to change to Mac......

WBF
09-08-2008, 09:29 AM
The simplest way to settle this:


Federer fans- Mac
Nadal fans - PC
Roddick fans - Abacus

I would amend that:

Murray fans - Mac
Federer fans (and now Nadal) - PC

shavenyak
09-08-2008, 10:02 AM
That's funny, I don't deal with bugs, and I could have Windows automatically download security patches if I were interested (I'm not, people worry too much about security).

I used to be a worksite administrator for 70+ workstations all running XP. There were many, many, many problems and bugs.

superstition
09-08-2008, 10:50 AM
For my uses, they offer absolutely nothing for the extra money.

I'm a Microsoft .NET developer
Well, yes, if you spend your time developing with Microsoft's proprietary tools, then you're going to want to use Windows. Microsoft has a long history of short-changing the Mac platform, which is hardly surprising.

The thing is, again, though, is that Macs can run Windows natively, so I don't think running Visual Studio or anything else on one is a "pain in the ***" as you claim.

superstition
09-08-2008, 10:52 AM
The PC is more powerful and harder to use.

So PC if you're a man, Mac if you're a woman.
An utterly absurd post.

And, if you want difficulty in order to feel more manly, you had better be using Linux.

gj011
09-08-2008, 11:36 AM
I would amend that:

Murray fans - Mac
Federer fans (and now Nadal) - PC

And Djokovic fans Linux.

gj011
09-08-2008, 11:37 AM
An utterly absurd post.

And, if you want difficulty in order to feel more manly, you had better be using Linux.

I agree with you here.

CGMemphis
09-08-2008, 11:48 AM
Depends on your final end need or want out of a computer.

If you are going for programming and M$ certification, go PC. The majority of your time in an IT department will be spent diagnosing and figuring out why certain dont work right with the M$ OS or the hardware interfacing with windoze.

If you want to work, be creative, have things be seamless and so forth, mac may be the way.

Its really personal choice.

I am an art director of 15+ years and have used both. I prefer the mac. hands down.

Trainer
09-08-2008, 11:58 AM
Well, yes, if you spend your time developing with Microsoft's proprietary tools, then you're going to want to use Windows. Microsoft has a long history of short-changing the Mac platform, which is hardly surprising.

Care to research the numbers of jobs and developers using Visual Studio vs J233, etc...

And as far as your "short changing" comment...who is more proprietary than Mac?

The thing is, again, though, is that Macs can run Windows natively, so I don't think running Visual Studio or anything else on one is a "pain in the ***" as you claim.

So, why buy a Mac again? So you can have a dual boot? Sounds like a pain in the *** to me...

superstition
09-08-2008, 01:31 PM
And as far as your "short changing" comment...who is more proprietary than Mac?
This just in. Microsoft Office and Microsoft Windows are now open source.
So, why buy a Mac again? So you can have a dual boot? Sounds like a pain in the *** to me...
I rarely use Windows anymore, so dual-booting isn't a big issue. Plus, Parallels allows Windows to run simultaneously.

Trainer
09-08-2008, 01:45 PM
This just in. Microsoft Office and Microsoft Windows are now open source.

So you are saying Mac is less proprietary and easier for developers? Really?

I rarely use Windows anymore, so dual-booting isn't a big issue. Plus, Parallels allows Windows to run simultaneously.

So why use a Mac again?

dima
09-08-2008, 02:07 PM
So you are saying Mac is less proprietary and easier for developers? Really?



So why use a Mac again?



A stupid question deserves a stupid answer. Why not?

Trainer
09-08-2008, 02:35 PM
A stupid question deserves a stupid answer. Why not?

Invariably, when someone jumps into a conversation and doesn't know what the hell is going on, they will make a completely idiotic comment.

I already said my reason. It costs less, much less.

Not to mention the amount of development around it in relative terms.

LuckyR
09-08-2008, 02:53 PM
The "Mac vs. PC" debate is dead. Macs are PCs, only with the ability to run OS X without hacking.

That's it. That's the only difference, aside from the feature set of the hardware.

Is it worth it to pay a bit extra to get native OS X? Absolutely it my opinion. If all you're going to do is play games, though, it's not worth it.

Not quite, there is the price issue. Neither is better nor worse, it's all about utility.

If you aren't a power user, nor video editor what are you going to run on OS-X that is so superior that it is worth the added cost?

If you do edit video get a Mac

If you play games get a PC

If you write term papers and surf the web and aren't made of money get a PC

If money is no object get whatever you want, get one in every color, in fact.

superstition
09-08-2008, 03:40 PM
If you write term papers and surf the web and aren't made of money get a PC
That comes without an OS so you can use a free Linux distro and Open Office.

there is the price issue.
Yes, I definitely don't promote paying Microsoft for Windows and Office if you don't specifically need them.

chrisf
09-08-2008, 04:41 PM
Holy crap there's a lot of bickering in this thread. Bottom line: PCs are fine if you're not an idiot, macs are fine if you are or aren't. PCs just happen to be much, much cheaper(don't talk about aluminum case crap) than macs when comparing specs alone. I use both and if you're not looking to spend 1.5k but still get a pretty strong machine that will last you a few years get a pc.

movdqa
09-08-2008, 04:52 PM
Try running Visual Studio on a Mac. Pain in the *****...

Look, macs cost more and I sure don't see why they are any better. For my uses, they offer absolutely nothing for the extra money. So why spend it?

I'm a Microsoft .NET developer, and my PC is running all sorts of customized web services, connects to multiple networks, has a dozen or so static routes, and never misses a beat. Maybe macs handle this too, but I'm sure they can't handle it better.

The nonsense about PC's crashing all the time? BS. I haven't rebooted my PC in over 2 months, and it went down then because of a power surge...

I have Visual Studio installed on three MacBook Pros. It's a piece of cake.

I do Open Source development mainly on Mac OSX and Windows. Macs are great if you have to do Mac OSX development.

I'd suggest buying one and trying it out for a few weeks. I have 9 PCs and 4 Macs. I use different machines for different purposes but the MacBook Pro is my favorite laptop except for travelling. I have a Dell XPS M1330 for that. And I use an old Compaq Presario at the office for real-time streaming charts. It's a great old machine that I've salvaged the display on.

dima
09-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Invariably, when someone jumps into a conversation and doesn't know what the hell is going on, they will make a completely idiotic comment.

I already said my reason. It costs less, much less.

Not to mention the amount of development around it in relative terms.

The question was, "why use a mac?" and you answered it with, "it costs less, much less". It seems you're the one who doesn't know what the heck you're talking about.

Anyway, to actually answer your question. Having the ability to use both operating systems and having a much more reliable computer wins it for me, not to mention the design is better than most windows based laptops. Did I mention they retain their value much better than windows based laptops? If something new comes along I can sell my macbook pro for 300 less than I paid for it.

RanchDressing
09-09-2008, 04:41 PM
if you are lazy... mac
if you are doing anything that needs reading into the computer pc.
if you ever want to play a computer game pc.

superstition
09-09-2008, 06:51 PM
if you are lazy... mac
if you are doing anything that needs reading into the computer pc.
if you ever want to play a computer game pc.
I take it you have a Mac, because that "reasoning" is really really lazy.

superstition
09-09-2008, 06:54 PM
PCs just happen to be much, much cheaper
A while back, analysts compared the price of a Mac Pro (the top of the line Mac desktop machine) and a Dell with comparative specs. The Mac was a lot cheaper. The "Macs are really expensive" thing has not always been historically true. It may be true today or it may not be. But, "you get what you pay for" is also a truism.

Bert: "Lexus is so overpriced. I'd rather have a Kia."
Alan: "Enjoy your Kia. I like my Lexus."

(don't talk about aluminum case crap)

Just like the differences between that Kia and the Lexus are "crap".

Lakoste
09-09-2008, 07:07 PM
I use both. My main desktop is a PC, mainly because the Mac Pro can't run the # of monitors simultaneously I want. I also run Linux on some of my other desktops, and my file server. I have a slew of notebooks, my main laptop is a Thinkpad x300. I also occasionally use my PB 12" when I'm in a Mac mood :) I bought a MBP, but it doesn't fit anywhere in my computing needs. Too big to carry around town, and if I'm home I'm on my desktop. So it is collecting dust in my computer closet, oh well.

superstition
09-09-2008, 07:09 PM
mainly because the Mac Pro can't run the # of monitors simultaneously I want.
How many is that? Can't you upgrade the video card?

Lakoste
09-09-2008, 07:21 PM
How many is that? Can't you upgrade the video card?

I'm currently running 6. I asked around and I was told there wasn't anyway I could run 6 on a Pro unless I use some sort of external box solution or one of those dumb usb-dvi adapters.

superstition
09-09-2008, 07:49 PM
The only thing I could find were external boxes. Six monitors on one computer, eh? Wow.

southpaw
09-09-2008, 07:49 PM
I'm currently running 6. I asked around and I was told there wasn't anyway I could run 6 on a Pro unless I use some sort of external box solution or one of those dumb usb-dvi adapters.

6 monitors? Really?
I am currently running a mac pro with two video cards running three 22" monitors, and that fills my entire field of vision. I can't imagine 6.
I believe the pro will hold 4 video cards ( 8 monitors ).

Lakoste
09-09-2008, 08:01 PM
The only thing I could find were external boxes. Six monitors on one computer, eh? Wow.
Yea, it is totally overkill. I redesigned my office last summer and decided I was sick of always upgrading computers components. So I basically built my current computer for the long haul.
6 monitors? Really?
I am currently running a mac pro with two video cards running three 22" monitors, and that fills my entire field of vision. I can't imagine 6.
I believe the pro will hold 4 video cards ( 8 monitors ).

Thanks for the info. Honestly I never looked to much into it. Most of my stock programs are Windows only.

superstition
09-09-2008, 08:15 PM
Most of my stock programs are Windows only.
So boot into Windows. ?

Lakoste
09-09-2008, 08:24 PM
So boot into Windows. ?

I've seen you make this suggestion to many people in this thread... why would I? If I am only going to be using only Windows on my computer, why buy a mac? I get no benefit from using OSX? Cost isn't an issue for me, I'm fairly sure that my PC costs about the same as a equally spec'd Mac Pro. Style isn't a reason for me either, since I think my case looks better than a Mac Pro case.

I just don't get it...

flynhawaiian
09-09-2008, 08:27 PM
if you are lazy... mac
if you are doing anything that needs reading into the computer pc.
if you ever want to play a computer game pc.

Rofl I absolutely Love this line of reasoning... I'll Play...

If you love blue screens... pc
If you like having control over your computer... mac
If you ever want to play a computer game... mac (just run bootcamp and install xp)

Rofl... Mac guys love this line of reasoning. :oops:

Sleepstream
09-09-2008, 08:29 PM
I've seen you make this suggestion to many people in this thread... why would I? If I am only going to be using only Windows on my computer, why buy a mac? I get no benefit from using OSX? Cost isn't an issue for me, I'm fairly sure that my PC costs about the same as a equally spec'd Mac Pro. Style isn't a reason for me either, since I think my case looks better than a Mac Pro case.

I just don't get it...

What exactly are your computer's specs?

Sleepstream
09-09-2008, 08:32 PM
Rofl I absolutely Love this line of reasoning... I'll Play...

If you love blue screens... pc
If you like having control over your computer... mac
If you ever want to play a computer game... mac (just run bootcamp and install xp)

Rofl... Mac guys love this line of reasoning. :oops:

That reasoning seems pretty bad.

superstition
09-09-2008, 08:46 PM
If I am only going to be using only Windows on my computer, why buy a mac? I get no benefit from using OSX? Cost isn't an issue for me, I'm fairly sure that my PC costs about the same as a equally spec'd Mac Pro. Style isn't a reason for me either, since I think my case looks better than a Mac Pro case.

I just don't get it...
Nor do I, since I thought you said you have a Mac Pro but are using a custom built machine because you need six monitors and your Mac pro couldn't manage it. I guess I read too fast or something.

As for your reasoning, if one has no reason for using OS X and the hardware is less compelling, then yes, don't buy an Apple. If the hardware is a better value or if one wants to use OS X, then buy an Apple.

I happen to really like my MacBook. The only thing I would change is the panel's color depth (no laptops have 8-bit panels, unfortunately) and the process of the GPU. I'm very happy with everything else about it. It's the best computer I've owned. (If money were no object, I'd have a fast solid state drive instead of a conventional hard disk, too.) I have a hand-built computer upstairs that I've hacked to run OS X but the convenience of the laptop generally wins out. The lack of bugs is also nice.

Some people buy Lexus. Some buy Mazda. Some buy Volvo. Some buy BMW. There are going to be a lot of debates about which car/brand is better, but they are often subjective.

DoubleWindsor
09-09-2008, 09:01 PM
i have both, but treasure my mac way more than my POS pc that takes an hour to boot after its one year old

thats another thing, people complain that you cant upgrade macs, but its better than having to buy a whole new pc every year bc of viruses and what not

superstition
09-09-2008, 09:16 PM
its better than having to buy a whole new pc every year bc of viruses and what not
One doesn't have to replace a computer due to viruses unless one gets hit with an old BIOS-corrupting virus. I can't remember which one did that, but it was a long time ago (probably seven years or so).

If one gets a virus that can't be wiped with anti-virus software, then a hard drive reformat does the trick.

I like not having such a virus problem in OS X, though. It's a big boon.

Lakoste
09-09-2008, 09:19 PM
What exactly are your computer's specs?

D5400XS mobo
Xeon E5410 x 2
8GB ram
8800GT x 3
1TB HD
PCP&C 750W
Coolermaster ATC S4000

Hopefully this will keep me going for a while, especially since I built it not too long ago. I've been thinking about OCing the CPU's, but I haven't felt I needed too, yet.

mucat
09-09-2008, 10:02 PM
A while back, analysts compared the price of a Mac Pro (the top of the line Mac desktop machine) and a Dell with comparative specs. The Mac was a lot cheaper. The "Macs are really expensive" thing has not always been historically true. It may be true today or it may not be. But, "you get what you pay for" is also a truism.

Bert: "Lexus is so overpriced. I'd rather have a Kia."
Alan: "Enjoy your Kia. I like my Lexus."



Just like the differences between that Kia and the Lexus are "crap".

I think most people said PC is cheaper refering to when building the PC themselves. When you build your own PC, it is pretty much like building your own Lexus with toyota pricing ;)

And when you build your own PC, you can pick and choose every single components too. Most people knowlegeable in building a PC can tell you how to minimize cost and maximum performance.

superstition
09-09-2008, 10:47 PM
Most people knowlegeable in building a PC can tell you how to minimize cost and maximum performance.
I've built several computers. I know the scene. But, I'm really not into building laptops and hacking home-brewed computers to run OS X can be a chore. Mine runs that original kernel but can't be put to sleep. One can run the sleep kernel, but that ruins Software Update. It's much simpler to get a real Mac.

Computer building is OK if you don't mind returning motherboards to NewEgg because the BIOS flash failed, and the like. If you don't mind dealing with CPU installation, cooling issues, and so forth. But, for a lot of people, the hassle isn't worth it. It was for me when I built my last system because I didn't have the money for anything else, including paying hundreds of dollars for Microsoft Windows and Office.

mucat
09-09-2008, 11:02 PM
I've built several computers. I know the scene. But, I'm really not into building laptops and hacking home-brewed computers to run OS X can be a chore. Mine runs that original kernel but can't be put to sleep. One can run the sleep kernel, but that ruins Software Update. It's much simpler to get a real Mac.


I was talking about PC, not PC/laptop, not PC/Mac.


Computer building is OK if you don't mind returning motherboards to NewEgg because the BIOS flash failed, and the like. If you don't mind dealing with CPU installation, cooling issues, and so forth. But, for a lot of people, the hassle isn't worth it. It was for me when I built my last system because I didn't have the money for anything else, including paying hundreds of dollars for Microsoft Windows and Office.

I do mind returning motherboards to stores because the BIOS flash failed... But it never happened to me once over the pass 20 years. Cooling issues??? If anything, cooling can only be improved if you build your own PC because you pick the type of cooler to put in. You will only have cooler issue if you don't know what you are doing, sorry. I only have cooler issue with pre-built PC and laptops. I have no comment for your last comment...... ;)

elee3
09-09-2008, 11:40 PM
Get a PC. Especially if you plan working on computer hardware design. I don't think I ever saw a Mac OS port going through school on those computer hardware designing programs and simulations. Mac OS isn't going to do much for computer science unless you are doing the art side. You would have to try to install windows on a Mac if you bought a Mac.

superstition
09-10-2008, 12:52 AM
Mac OS isn't going to do much for computer science unless you are doing the art side.
Here we go again.
You would have to try to install windows on a Mac if you bought a Mac.
Try? It's a piece of cake. Apple has a slick program called Boot Camp that even gives one a nice two-OS boot menu log-in.

superstition
09-10-2008, 12:52 AM
I do mind returning motherboards to stores because the BIOS flash failed... But it never happened to me once over the pass 20 years.
You're lucky. Of course, our university had several hundred (or maybe a thousand due to the bulk purchase) Dell Optiplex machines die because of the bad caps on the FoxConn motherboards, so buying from a big retailer can have problems, too.

I have no comment for your last comment......
Why? Linux and Open Office are a lot less expensive than Microsoft's offerings. I was covered by a student contract for both Windows/Office and OS X/Office, but if I had not been, there's no way I would have purchased Microsoft Office. I would have used NeoOffice in OS X, probably.

mlee2
09-10-2008, 02:16 AM
^^^Although Macs can run Windows and its subsequent programs, if a huge majority of the applications you're gonna run is exclusively in Windows, why would you lay down that extra $500 premium for a Mac/Windows combination when you can just get a regular PC?

BTW, NeoOffice still has many compatibility issues when editing a ppt, xls, doc, etc.

movdqa
09-10-2008, 06:26 AM
I'm running Mac OSX in the office on my 17 inch MBP. It's hooked up to an old Pentium 4 Windows system with three monitors and an old Compaq Presario laptop. They're all controlled by Synergy with one mouse and keyboard so it makes for a nice five monitor display.

I do most of the work on the MacBook Pro using Spaces. The laptop is normally a display for realtime streaming charts and the three standalone monitors are used for Tarantella into other systems for engineering work.

One guy at work has a few Mac Pros and he just prefers to slap two 30 inch displays on them as opposed to going with multiple smaller monitors.

Lakoste
09-10-2008, 08:30 AM
Here we go again.

Try? It's a piece of cake. Apple has a slick program called Boot Camp that even gives one a nice two-OS boot menu log-in.
Try VMFusion some time, I prefer it over bootcamp.

One guy at work has a few Mac Pros and he just prefers to slap two 30 inch displays on them as opposed to going with multiple smaller monitors.
I considered going that route, but I prefer having my stock charts fills up the entire screen and not having to resize it so multiple charts fit on a 30".

mucat
09-10-2008, 09:28 AM
You're lucky. Of course, our university had several hundred (or maybe a thousand due to the bulk purchase) Dell Optiplex machines die because of the bad caps on the FoxConn motherboards, so buying from a big retailer can have problems, too.

I was talking about build your own PC.
I do NOT equal building your own PC to buying from Dell.


Why? Linux and Open Office are a lot less expensive than Microsoft's offerings. I was covered by a student contract for both Windows/Office and OS X/Office, but if I had not been, there's no way I would have purchased Microsoft Office. I would have used NeoOffice in OS X, probably.

...My friends told me...there are other ways...

movdqa
09-10-2008, 10:21 AM
Try VMFusion some time, I prefer it over bootcamp.

I considered going that route, but I prefer having my stock charts fills up the entire screen and not having to resize it so multiple charts fit on a 30".

I prefer a dedicated screen for stock charts myself and using lower resolution monitors or reusing old laptops is a much cheaper solution. I use QuoteTracker which only runs on Windows too.

But for me real work, Mac OSX is pretty nice.

Apple does have a real hole in their lineup for standalone desktops which is why I get my desktops from Dell. I like Apple for their laptops though, nVidia problem notwithstanding.

elee3
09-10-2008, 11:16 PM
Here we go again.

Try? It's a piece of cake. Apple has a slick program called Boot Camp that even gives one a nice two-OS boot menu log-in.


Superstition...I don't think you ever touched computer hardware design or simulation software. A lot of that stuff is really expensive so schools will usually design their courses around older versions of software or even educational tools designed by someone way back. And a good percentage of this software used by schools was made well before windowsXP so it does require work arounds at times even if you are using a PC. I've taken classes where the first lab project was just setting up our PCs to work with the damn software.... Now you add in Mac trying to run this type of software....forget it I'm not even going to bother with the possibilities of what can happen. Just eliminate all that out by going PC man, it's already a headache for professors and TAs to help out all 200 students in a class. You work in IT, I'm pretty sure you should very well understand you want to keep things as simple as possible. If I was using a Mac and needed to use computer hardware design or simulation software, I would pray that every class I'm taking that the professor has setup a computer system somewhere so we can just remote onto the system to do our design and testing.

Yes Macs are gaining steam even in the business end, but the tools in school are pretty outdated compared to the industry. It's best to join the masses unless you like headaches. The masses use Macs for creativity and PCs for technical stuff. Where I work at, Macs are only used by the marketing department and maybe a few IT people supporting the marketing department.

movdqa
09-11-2008, 03:06 AM
Berkeley does a nice job in providing course videos to the public so that anyone can virtually sit in on a variety of college courses. One thing that I've noticed is that many professors use Macs in the classroom.

Many professors at my son's university use Macs too. Maybe the university provides them or maybe Apple gives them a great deal. My son did take a hardware course in the spring and he probably worked on a Windows system. Homework had to be turned in on floppy disks. But the university provided the hardware in their labs. He has a MBP with Boot Camp so he can run either operating system.

Kyle Rouge
09-11-2008, 03:11 AM
^^ floppy disks?! I thought those went out with the horseless carriage!

movdqa
09-11-2008, 03:21 AM
They still sell floppies at the office supply stores so I bought him a box.

I used to use the 8 inch floppy disks which predated the 5 1/2 inch floppies which predated the 3 1/2 inch floppies which people are familiar with today.

Kyle Rouge
09-11-2008, 03:28 AM
Just seems anachronistic given the advent of flash drives given the limited capacity of a floppy.

adams_1
09-11-2008, 03:42 AM
Buy a Mac if you want to think you're cool.

Buy a PC if you aren't an idiot.

WBF
09-11-2008, 04:24 AM
Buy a Mac if you want to think you're cool.

Buy a PC if you aren't an idiot.

Idiots on both sides of the spectrum. This topic is always amusing.

movdqa
09-11-2008, 06:43 AM
Just seems anachronistic given the advent of flash drives given the limited capacity of a floppy.

Cost is a factor here. I think that a box of floppies is $6. My guess is that the professors computer is so old that it doesn't have usb ports.

WBF
09-11-2008, 07:15 AM
Cost is a factor here. I think that a box of floppies is $6. My guess is that the professors computer is so old that it doesn't have usb ports.

I'm sorry, but at most online stores you can pick up 1gb for 6, 4gb for 15, etc. No excuse for floppies. None.

movdqa
09-11-2008, 10:41 AM
I'm sorry, but at most online stores you can pick up 1gb for 6, 4gb for 15, etc. No excuse for floppies. None.

Cost is a factor. You don't get the media back. It's not the cost per GB. It's the cost per homework assignment.

Kyle Rouge
09-11-2008, 11:16 AM
Movdga, that's really amazing. With all of the technology available, the school actually uses floppies. My kids' middle school is totally wired and the kids email assignments into a "drop box."

What school is this?

movdqa
09-11-2008, 11:50 AM
Movdga, that's really amazing. With all of the technology available, the school actually uses floppies. My kids' middle school is totally wired and the kids email assignments into a "drop box."

What school is this?

I work with a lot of Phds (I only have an MSCS myself) and you can get by teaching computer science with pretty old equipment. The mathematics is more important than the power of the computers.

superstition
09-11-2008, 11:56 AM
Superstition...I don't think you ever touched computer hardware design or simulation software. A lot of that stuff is really expensive so schools will usually design their courses around older versions of software or even educational tools designed by someone way back. And a good percentage of this software used by schools was made well before windowsXP so it does require work arounds at times even if you are using a PC. I've taken classes where the first lab project was just setting up our PCs to work with the damn software.... Now you add in Mac trying to run this type of software....forget it I'm not even going to bother with the possibilities of what can happen.
Macs use Intel motherboards, Intel CPUs, and standard Intel or nVidia GPUs. The only difference between a Mac and most other x86 systems is that Macs don't use BIOS, they use EFI. EFI is a "more modern" replacement for BIOS that I believe originated with Intel. EFI is available on some x86 motherboards sold commercially, although the vast majority continue to use BIOS.

I don't see any reason from the details you've provided in your post why the software you mentioned would not run just fine on a Mac (or at least as well as on a Dell).

superstition
09-11-2008, 12:00 PM
I was talking about build your own PC.
I do NOT equal building your own PC to buying from Dell.
Yes, but when a motherboard problem of such giant proportions can hit a big company like Dell in their "safe" Optiplex line, you had better believe buying a motherboard from NewEgg opens one to the possibility to returns due to defect.

I have purchased two motherboards on-line and the first one had to go back because the BIOS was corrupted when I tried to upgrade it. It was an ECS RS 482 M, and one of the reasons I chose it for this person's system was because I had experience with another system with that motherboard that had no problems. I exchanged it for a SIS, and that one worked fine.

Discount brands like ECS are likely a bit more failure prone. Foxconn, even though it is used by big companies like Dell, also has motherboards with questionable reliability. But even big name companies like Gigabyte have had major fiascos, like the data corruption bug in their nVidia boards and the incompatibility of a high end nVidia board with various Intel CPUs. Some of the boards don't have enough power phases to run AMD's high wattage 4 core chips without frying and the labeling is not necessarily clear or even present. Building a system requires research.

WBF
09-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Yes, but when a motherboard problem of such giant proportions can hit a big company like Dell in their "safe" Optiplex line, you had better believe buying a motherboard from NewEgg opens one to the possibility to returns due to defect.

I have purchased two motherboards on-line and the first one had to go back because the BIOS was corrupted when I tried to upgrade it. It was an ECS RS 482 M, and one of the reasons I chose it for this person's system was because I had experience with another system with that motherboard that had no problems. I exchanged it for a SIS, and that one worked fine.

Discount brands like ECS are likely a bit more failure prone. Foxconn, even though it is used by big companies like Dell, also has motherboards with questionable reliability. But even big name companies like Gigabyte have had major fiascos, like the data corruption bug in their nVidia boards and the incompatibility of a high end nVidia board with various Intel CPUs. Some of the boards don't have enough power phases to run AMD's high wattage 4 core chips without frying and the labeling is not necessarily clear or even present. Building a system requires research.

With any motherboard you are going to face risk of defect, from the cheapest **** you can find to the most ludicrously priced production system ready mobo. You can't argue this as anything but a negative for Apple, as you have a much wider variety to chose from (that you can research) for non-apple computers.

superstition
09-11-2008, 12:20 PM
With any motherboard you are going to face risk of defect, from the cheapest **** you can find to the most ludicrously priced production system ready mobo.
Quality control/testing is something assembled computer companies can implement. One of the reasons why I think the first ECS RS-482 M worked so well and the one I got from NewEgg didn't is because the first one came from a MicroCenter box. It was probably tested by the MicroCenter assembler before it was sent out.

Unfortunately, hidden problems like bad caps can rear their heads at a later time. But, with the XBox 360 Ring of Death, Microsoft knew the systems weren't reliable and decided to ship them anyway.

Another thing a place like Apple has is an extended warranty (AppleCare), a service network (like the "Genius Bar" at the Apple Store), and so on.
You can't argue this as anything but a negative for Apple, as you have a much wider variety to chose from (that you can research) for non-apple computers.
There are benefits from DIY and benefits from buying from a reputable assembler-finisher-designer. One solution does not fit all. The majority of people are not interested in doing all the research into parts to know what is a good deal and what is not in DIY - what is compatible and what is not - what is reliable and what is not. Most people just want things to work with a minimum of hassle. OS X is great OS in that respect.

DIY isn't so practical when dealing with laptops, and laptops outsell desktops today.

elee3
09-11-2008, 10:19 PM
Macs use Intel motherboards, Intel CPUs, and standard Intel or nVidia GPUs. The only difference between a Mac and most other x86 systems is that Macs don't use BIOS, they use EFI. EFI is a "more modern" replacement for BIOS that I believe originated with Intel. EFI is available on some x86 motherboards sold commercially, although the vast majority continue to use BIOS.

I don't see any reason from the details you've provided in your post why the software you mentioned would not run just fine on a Mac (or at least as well as on a Dell).

Okay I dug too deep and my main point got all washed up. The person is looking towards a computer that he will be able to use for his computer science courses. It is best to run development software for hardware or software design on Windows. Why would you bother buying a Mac and then have to buy a version of Windows to install on it to run course work? It sounds like a lot of work for nothing. Just going to use OS X to browse the internet? I see no point in speeding extra few hundred dollars when OS X does nearly nothing in computer development work. Looking at this how is a Mac a better bang for the buck then PC?

elee3
09-11-2008, 10:31 PM
Yes, but when a motherboard problem of such giant proportions can hit a big company like Dell in their "safe" Optiplex line, you had better believe buying a motherboard from NewEgg opens one to the possibility to returns due to defect.

I have purchased two motherboards on-line and the first one had to go back because the BIOS was corrupted when I tried to upgrade it. It was an ECS RS 482 M, and one of the reasons I chose it for this person's system was because I had experience with another system with that motherboard that had no problems. I exchanged it for a SIS, and that one worked fine.

Discount brands like ECS are likely a bit more failure prone. Foxconn, even though it is used by big companies like Dell, also has motherboards with questionable reliability. But even big name companies like Gigabyte have had major fiascos, like the data corruption bug in their nVidia boards and the incompatibility of a high end nVidia board with various Intel CPUs. Some of the boards don't have enough power phases to run AMD's high wattage 4 core chips without frying and the labeling is not necessarily clear or even present. Building a system requires research.

You do know just about everything Apple makes is Foxconn designed and manufactured right? Bashing Foxconn you're bashing Apple too. If you're looking for a stable motherboard, look for motherboards with Intel or Ati/AMD chipsets. Nvidia motherboards can be a pain, thats why some companies don't even bother with them.

jmsx521
09-12-2008, 08:01 AM
Federer fans- Mac/PC
Nadal fans - PC/Mac
Lendl & Sampras fans - Graphing calculators
Nastase & McEnroe fans - Broken typewriters

southpaw
09-12-2008, 03:15 PM
...The person is looking towards a computer that he will be able to use for his computer science courses. It is best to run development software for hardware or software design on Windows...

You would be correct if this was the 1990's. The internet has changed the landscape. It has become the default development platform. And on that platform, unix is king. The majority of web apps are written using some combination of apache, perl, php, ruby, python, java, javascript ... All kryptonite to Microsoft.

Take for example places like google, yahoo or facebook. How much windows development do you think all those giant brains are doing? Or how about our favorite tennis-warehouse.com. I haven't checked, but I would bet this site is not running on windows; probably some unix variant.

Without sounding like a bad commercial. The future is open, and windows is closed.

superstition
09-12-2008, 04:09 PM
You do know just about everything Apple makes is Foxconn designed and manufactured right? Bashing Foxconn you're bashing Apple too.
Instead of trying to attack everything I write, just accept the reality of what I was saying.

Tennisguy777
09-12-2008, 06:09 PM
Just go with a PC - much cheaper to buy and repair! Unless you're the tinker type like me and would prefer having a mac with dual boot vista or xp. If you're nerdy why not have both? The new macs come with intel chips nowadays too.

WBF
09-12-2008, 07:09 PM
Just go with a PC - much cheaper to buy and repair! Unless you're the tinker type like me and would prefer having a mac with dual boot vista or xp. If you're nerdy why not have both? The new macs come with intel chips nowadays too.

:confused::confused::confused:

As opposed to tinkering with their own PC components?

Morpheus
09-12-2008, 09:08 PM
Just go with a PC - much cheaper to buy and repair! Unless you're the tinker type like me and would prefer having a mac with dual boot vista or xp. If you're nerdy why not have both? The new macs come with intel chips nowadays too.

I loaded Parallels onto my Mac and all I got were PC viruses. I didn't see the point of opening up my Mac to PC virus attacks. So I just reloaded on my software and moved on. Best decision I ever made.

adams_1
09-12-2008, 10:20 PM
Hold up. Mac vs PC is the question, right?

Ubuntu is the answer :lol:

elee3
09-12-2008, 10:34 PM
You would be correct if this was the 1990's. The internet has changed the landscape. It has become the default development platform. And on that platform, unix is king. The majority of web apps are written using some combination of apache, perl, php, ruby, python, java, javascript ... All kryptonite to Microsoft.

Take for example places like google, yahoo or facebook. How much windows development do you think all those giant brains are doing? Or how about our favorite tennis-warehouse.com. I haven't checked, but I would bet this site is not running on windows; probably some unix variant.

Without sounding like a bad commercial. The future is open, and windows is closed.

Yes you are correct about that. All the computer systems I remoted on back in school were Sun Micro Solaris systems, but I'm talking about what general OS or computer system would be better suited for a computer science student. I don't think running Unix is going to be very convenient after you finish the coding and testing. I have no idea if Unix has something to run MS Doc, Excel, or Powerpoint.

superstition
09-12-2008, 10:36 PM
Ubuntu is the answer :lol:
For some things, but not for others. Is Adobe Creative Suite available for Ubuntu? What about AutoCAD? Microsoft Office? The top pro audio apps?

Linux is limited by limited software availability, and Ubuntu, in the version I used (Fiesty, I think), offers a cumbersome and inefficient GUI/interface. Design is one area Apple excels in, and good design is one of the things that separates a Mercedes from a Yugo.

superstition
09-12-2008, 10:38 PM
I have no idea if Unix has something to run MS Doc, Excel, or Powerpoint.
OS X is a combination of BSD Unix, the Mach microkernel, OpenStep, and various technologies from the actual (now defunct) Mac OS. It is a Unix variant as is Linux which uses the Linux monolithic kernel and comes in many flavors.

One thing people are forgetting is that Apple has made a version of OS X free to the public. It's called Darwin (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=apple+darwin&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).

elee3
09-12-2008, 10:48 PM
Instead of trying to attack everything I write, just accept the reality of what I was saying.

Man just reread post 146. I'm asking you how is spending extra to get OS X + Windows dual booting a better deal than getting Windows alone pretty much will meet all the requirements. Aren't you attacking by saying Foxconn is horrible, plus various PC companies? I'm just letting you know that Foxconn are the ones that design and manufacture a ton of the Apple products. Pot calling the kettle black.

Mansewerz
09-12-2008, 10:48 PM
Macs are great for creative stuff like photoshop, InDesign, iFilm, etc.


Just got new macs at school, love using photoshop on them (I use it for actual work too)

Never played games on them, and I think some parts can be a nuisance. I don't have extensive experience with them though.

superstition
09-12-2008, 11:58 PM
Man just reread post 146. I'm asking you how is spending extra to get OS X + Windows dual booting a better deal than getting Windows alone pretty much will meet all the requirements.
Well, for people like me who are at a university that has a contract that provides both operating systems for no extra charge to students, faculty, and staff, it makes great sense to have a dual-boot Mac. There is no extra expense.

For those who primarily want to use OS X but have certain things that require Windows, dual booting (or Parallels) are attractive options.

There are things that OS X does better than Windows and vice-versa. It's too complicated to get into all that for me at the moment. Some basic things are different, though. Windows is better for having a wide variety of games. For people who don't care about games or who don't need so many choices, that's not an issue. OS X is a less intrusive/obtrusive operating system. Although I haven't spent much time with Vista, one thing I absolutely detest about XP are all the little harassing messages that pop up telling me I have unused icons and crap like that. OS X doesn't harass one every time one logs in to tell them there are detected wireless networks, and so forth. I think OS X handles multiple language text input better and has great Japanese features like high-quality fonts and built-in dictionaries. There are many elements to an OS and one size does not fit all.

Some people need expensive setups with 6 monitors like the guy here. Paying a bit extra for Windows with a Mac isn't a big issue for someone with such a budget. Others have little to spend and will get by with a DIY and Ubuntu. That is where the greatest cash savings are (potentially - good luck finding a Linux guru to help you if you have problems), not with Microsoft. A study found years ago that Windows' price is artificially inflated due to the Microsoft monopoly. Many Microsoft products are far from cheap.

Aren't you attacking by saying Foxconn is horrible, plus various PC companies?
I said some Foxconn motherboards do not have a good reputation for reliability, particularly the low end models. Check Newegg's feedback for some of them. Plus, the Dell Optiplex GX 270 models that we had to replace in huge numbers had Foxconn motherboards with leaking caps. I'm not "attacking" Foxconn. I'm simply reporting what I've observed. The overall point was that DIY is not a guarantee that there will be no need to send back motherboards or other parts for return. If a big vendor like Dell can be hit so badly with defects, a DIY builder had better be careful and spend a lot of time researching, time that costs money if one has a good job—money that might be better saved by buying from a vendor like Apple.

I'm just letting you know that Foxconn are the ones that design and manufacture a ton of the Apple products.
I already knew that. I recall that I said some Foxconn boards have questionable reliability. Some does not mean all. We have blue and white G3 Macs that still work despite having Foxconn motherboards while the much more recent Dell models I mentioned don't. The caps were the problem as I mentioned also.

Pot calling the kettle black.
No, misplaced aggression.

adams_1
09-12-2008, 11:58 PM
For some things, but not for others. Is Adobe Creative Suite available for Ubuntu? What about AutoCAD? Microsoft Office? The top pro audio apps?

Linux is limited by limited software availability, and Ubuntu, in the version I used (Fiesty, I think), offers a cumbersome and inefficient GUI/interface. Design is one area Apple excels in, and good design is one of the things that separates a Mercedes from a Yugo.

I know. I don't actually use it, i'm just trying to stir the pot. This thread amuses me :)

superstition
09-13-2008, 12:14 AM
Aside from even earlier computers I dabbled with, I started with Windows at a local library. It was a 286 running Windows 3.0 so it was dog slow and difficult to use.

Then, when I went to college there were an equal number of Macs and Windows machines. No one told me what to use or what to like. I tried both systems and spent most of my time on the Macs because they printed documents twice as fast on the dot matrix printers (ImageWriter II rather than Epson) and printed darker letters. Microsoft Office in those days was absolutely terrible. Word 6 was slow and unreliable. The machines would crash because Netscape 1.1 and 2 were unreliable, the machines had protection software (FoolProof), viruses, and the old Mac OS had no protected memory. Sometimes I'd get frustrated and switch to one of the Dells running Windows NT. But, I'd always return to the Macs because they were faster (the Dells would get progressively slower with use - probably due to memory leaks, and would slow to an unusable crawl), and especially when I had to print something. I purchased an old Mac second-hand and continued to use university machines because I didn't have a printer.

Since those days I have supported both platforms as a tech and have owned and built both, including hacking a DIY to run OS X. I have used Linux as well. I do not treat computers or computer software religiously, unlike so many people who try to define a computer platform as if it has something to do with a person's essence. Hogwash. Computer are tools.

I'm actually quite disappointed with the way desktop computing turned out. The Apple Lisa was a better overall system than the Mac in some important respects and yet it failed due to poor marketing and some other poor decisions. It was also ahead of its time. Apple's mismanagement of the Lisa technology (and some mistakes made with the original Mac design - like no hard disk support) allowed Microsoft with its greatly inferior MS-DOS and Windows 1-3.1 to get the market. While OS X is a great operating system, there were so many years of slogging through bombs from the old Mac OS, or dealing with Windows blue screens. The Lisa was a system with multitasking, protected memory, a built-in screensaver, redundant disk schemes for data protection, and so many other things we take for granted now that were very gradually introduced to the other platforms. If Apple would have properly capitalized on the Lisa, instead of splintering the technology and eventually replacing it with the watered-down Mac 128k, Microsoft would have been forced to release better products much sooner. Computing would be further along than it is now. It's not completely Apple's fault, though, as the company's vision didn't match the chip production sophistication (too low) of the time, resulting in what was referred to as a minicomputer being sold as a desktop microcomputer. The Lisa was really a slow minicomputer, not a micro. It had a high price to match. But, things could have been done differently. Despite that, it was an outstanding system (ignoring the unreliable Twiggy floppy drives which were replaced with Sony models) for its time - way ahead of it in fact.

For a lot of people, a luxury automobile is a waste of money. They would rather drive a well used Honda Civic because it gets them from point A to point B. They don't have a CD player in the car, just a radio. They don't have power windows or an AC.

Others want a Lexus with heated leather seats with lumbar support, noise-dampening doors/interior for a quiet ride, surround sound, et cetera.

"It's too expensive" is not an issue of price tag but of what one gets for one's money and what one wants for it. Do I feel I got a good deal from the Apple products I've purchased? Yes. Am I stupid because I drive a Miata instead of a Yugo? That's a subjective matter.

chrisf
09-13-2008, 04:19 AM
A while back, analysts compared the price of a Mac Pro (the top of the line Mac desktop machine) and a Dell with comparative specs.

I've read this numerous times and each time I compare the two macs are almost always twice as much. I've been using a mid range laptop I bought 8 months ago for $600 and i've been using it for some pretty intensive modeling and post production and it's held up fine.

my mid range 8 month old comp specs: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a370/feynman/comp/sys1.jpg

non-integrated graphics specs: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a370/feynman/comp/sys2.jpg

mac book prices: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a370/feynman/comp/macs.jpg

ThugNasty
01-19-2009, 07:26 PM
Hey guys. I wanted to see what the majority prefers. I often ask people this question but somepeople say macs are better and others say that Macs are overrated, expensive, and not as user friendly as people say they are. So please contribute your opinion to the poll. Thanks! :)

WBF
01-19-2009, 07:27 PM
What will you be using it for, what do you own, and what do you have experience with.

Neither is inherently superior. Anyone who argues differently is an ignorant buffoon.

super_forehand
01-19-2009, 07:30 PM
What will you be using it for, what do you own, and what do you have experience with.

Neither is inherently superior. Anyone who argues differently is an ignorant buffoon.

lol ive always enjoyed the employment of the word BUFFOON

ThugNasty
01-19-2009, 07:30 PM
What will you be using it for, what do you own, and what do you have experience with.

Neither is inherently superior. Anyone who argues differently is an ignorant buffoon.
Well I will start College soon. I will be using to make graphs, do papers, labs, projects etc. Just high performance and reliability would be needed.

ThugNasty
01-19-2009, 07:30 PM
lol ive always enjoyed the employment of the word BUFFOON

who doesnt like using that word? :D

Noveson
01-19-2009, 07:34 PM
Well I will start College soon. I will be using to make graphs, do papers, labs, projects etc. Just high performance and reliability would be needed.

From what I have heard for College macs are the way to go. Most major universities use Macs. I am heading to college next year also and just got a MacBookPro 17" and absolutely love it.

By the way I made the decision on which one by reading consumer reports, which has a mac in 1st place in every laptop category, and my sister who is doing her graduate studies in engineering at Oregon.

adams_1
01-19-2009, 08:42 PM
I don't enjoy using the word 'buffoon'. I much prefer 'pillock'.

Fearsome Forehand
01-19-2009, 08:54 PM
Macs have the decided advantage of coming from a company that makes its own OS that is specifically designed to work on Apple's hardware. Hence, no crashing problems. Microsoft makes an OS that works on a variety of hardware makers' products; hence, all the crashing issues. Can you say Blue Screen of Death?

In addition, Apple is not hated by nefarious computer geeks the way Microsoft is. So, almost no virus threats. Most viruses (even those named after tennis stars with the initials AK) are designed to attack Microsoft products like Explorer. I will never forget the wonderful Blaster worm of 2002. Can I download the patch before the Blaster wormshuts down my PC again? Ah, that was some fun! Your computer will shut down in 15 seconds. A race against time. In contrast, Macs are pretty much left alone by the code monkey virus writing Dr. Evil types.

Apples to Apples, (pun intended), I would go with a Mac unless the initial cost savings compensates you adequately for the incremental grief a PC will buy you.

rommil
01-19-2009, 09:29 PM
I have Macs and I love them.

king of swing
01-19-2009, 09:47 PM
DAMMIT. I meant to put mac.... but if you do get a PC do yourself a favor and put Ubuntu on it. Its a linux distrobution, very nice and sort of mac like if you ask me, and very user friendly as well http://www.ubuntu.com/

adams_1
01-19-2009, 10:41 PM
When you buy a Mac you get a lot less hardware for your money than you do if you build your own PC (or have someone you know build it for you.) You also lose out on upgradeability.

Really it all comes down to what you want to do. A lot of people swear by Macs for design type work. For the gamer or enthusiast, PC all the way.

35ft6
01-19-2009, 10:53 PM
Neither is inherently superior. Anyone who argues differently is an ignorant buffoon.But to suggest they are exactly equal is even dumber. We can do better than that.

Depends what you want a computer for, but IMO for the average user, the Mac OS is far superior. I'm talking about the person who wants their computer for photo, music, email, texting, movies, and web browsing. And with Bootcamp, I personally don't see the point in getting a Windows computer at all unless you just want to save money in the short term. But Mac requires less upkeep, less money spent on software to protect it against viruses, and has a higher resale value.

That's just my opinion.

a-naik.1
01-19-2009, 11:49 PM
When you buy a Mac you get a lot less hardware for your money than you do if you build your own PC (or have someone you know build it for you.) You also lose out on upgradeability.

Really it all comes down to what you want to do. A lot of people swear by Macs for design type work. For the gamer or enthusiast, PC all the way.

You are also buying more RISK with a PC...I currently use a mac and you can always run windows on it if you really wanted to...granted I use mine for graphic design, but I love it more than I ever liked my PC.

ls206
01-20-2009, 03:08 AM
I have a macbook and Windows pc. I would advise a Mac for what you want.

But.....first read up on the courses and see if there are any specific programs you need as some software will only work on Windows.

However, as said above, if you have bootcamp you can run windows (I think you need to buy the OS though)

origmarm
01-20-2009, 03:21 AM
Before bootcamp I would have said it depends what programs you want to run. Now with bootcamp for most personal users I would recommend a Mac unless your budget is tight.

I unfortunately still cannot use a Mac due to software constraints. Mind you I still cannot use Vista or XP SP3 either... I hate proprietary software

WBF
01-20-2009, 03:48 AM
Ahh for school.

In that case, go with a PC, or a Mac while buying Windows.

While this is not always the case, and the opposite occurs occasionally... Some proprietary software required for certain courses or textbooks requires a Windows environment. It is also important to point out that if you have group work, being the odd man out with a Mac can be a PITA for you and your group.

Now to address some issues raised:

From what I have heard for College macs are the way to go. Most major universities use Macs.[quote] False. Most major universities offer both for student use. In terms of (proprietary) software and support for your OWN computer, more lean towards Windows.

[quote]Hence, no crashing problems. Facepalm. You clearly should not be commenting on this issue.

In addition, Apple is not hated by nefarious computer geeks the way Microsoft is. What the heck? I'm working on my masters in a geeky computer field. I world in a large building dedicated solely to IT. While some certainly do not like Microsoft, the same can be said of ALL other operating systems. Microsoft does see its fair share of vulnerabilities, but keeping yourself up to date, even automatically, is about as safe as using a Mac. Keep in mind third party services for BOTH operating systems are far more likely to be exploited, as many users fail to upgrade these, and many contain gaping security holes.

but if you do get a PC do yourself a favor and put Ubuntu on it. Its a linux distrobution, very nice and sort of mac like if you ask me, and very user friendly as well Worth a try, but depending on your hardware, this can involve obnoxious command line work and more research than your average joe is interested in to accomplish the basics.

For the gamer or enthusiast, PC all the way.

Whatever the dual boot option is called (not virtualization junk) + Windows is a decent solution for gaming on a "Mac" these days, but yeah, with a PC you get to select what parts go in and build a better machine for less money. Not everyone has the interest or time to do this though.

IMO for the average user, the Mac OS is far superior. Disagree due to proprietary software notes above. If you mean for anyone in general, still disagree. Comes down to experience at that point. Mac doesn't require 'less upkeep' or 'less money' though. You can run a good, free anti virus and the Windows Firewall, while leaving MS on auto update and be about as safe as a Mac user.

In terms of security, it is worth noting that social engineering (CLICK HERE FOR NUD PICS!!!!! or THIS IS YOUR BANK< SEND ACCT # NOW!) would probably be more likely.

off to work...

lovecr717
01-20-2009, 04:30 AM
Im not an expert in technology but I think mac is cool

tennisguyak
01-20-2009, 05:42 AM
If you do want to run WIndows on a mac on BootCamp, you don't have to buy it....just find a good torrent and a keygen. A friend of mine who makes videos and is extremely good (he's 15 and he was a special effects adviser on a $2 million production) swears by his Mac Book Pro. IMO a PC isn't very reliable for major projects unless you have the right hardware. A powerful PC with a big HDD and a powerful processor is just as good as a mac (if you have the right software.)

But from what I have seen on my friends Mac Book Pro, I prefer it 100% to my PC.

aphex
01-20-2009, 06:10 AM
i'm a recent switcher from pc to mac.
absolutely no comparison. mac PWNS pc.

atatu
01-20-2009, 09:34 AM
i'm a recent switcher from pc to mac.
absolutely no comparison. mac PWNS pc.

Completely agree, I only switched because a family member gave me an older Mac laptop, no comparsion, I won't go back to a PC....

Noveson
01-20-2009, 04:11 PM
[QUOTE=WBF;3024014]

[quote]From what I have heard for College macs are the way to go. Most major universities use Macs.[quote] False. Most major universities offer both for student use. In terms of (proprietary) software and support for your OWN computer, more lean towards Windows.

Both Oregon and Oregon State have almost all Macs in their labs.

EPaps
01-20-2009, 04:29 PM
both. bootcamp.

Hot Sauce
01-20-2009, 04:43 PM
OH SNAP! The lead for PC's has been cut down to 1!

I voted for PC. I have never been a fan of Macs. I've used my friend's notebooks, and the Macs at school, but they really annoy me.

Mick
01-20-2009, 04:58 PM
i had switched to mac and then switched back to pc.

i knew mac had limited softwares, but i figured it would not affect me if i only used the computer for websurfing and for recording music.

wrong!

in order to install the latest safari (apple web browser) and the latest itunes, the mac os has to be pretty current. Because my OS was 10.2.8. I could not update safari, itunes, firefox, adobe flash, etc.... and i couldn't update the OS because my system would not meet the requirements to install the new OS.

therefore, i switched back to windows vista. now i can install anything, well practically anything that can run on 64-bit vista OS.

WBF
01-20-2009, 07:13 PM
Both Oregon and Oregon State have almost all Macs in their labs.

Anecdotes are not under discussion, and I believe I covered this in my post. For USE, most offer both, and this point is irrelevant when discussing someones choice in purchasing a PC... In terms of support, and occasional proprietary software required by either the school or individual courses, schools lean towards Windows. Granted, there are pockets of differences... Some art oriented schools/courses might lean towards a Mac. In general though, Windows is often a safer choice.

Personally, I would say go Mac if you have the money for a Mac and a copy of Windows, and don't care about the specific parts. Best of both worlds. Or an open source environment and Windows if you are interested in comp sci or other computer oriented degrees.

Tennisguy777
01-21-2009, 07:23 AM
PC is more versatile and user customizable. So many choices of OS and hardware. Also Windows 7 is coming soon and from the Beta version I've been demoing it pretty good and more Mac like OS. Now why do you think that Apple switched to x86 based processors etc, because they realized that they wouldn't win the war so they conformed. Now you can run windows on a Mac if you are willing to void your warranty. They are also more expenive which is I think now their biggest hurdle.

35ft6
01-25-2009, 04:09 PM
Disagree due to proprietary software notes above. This doesn't apply to average user.If you mean for anyone in general, still disagree. Comes down to experience at that point. How so? Mac doesn't require 'less upkeep' or 'less money' though. You can run a good, free anti virus and the Windows Firewall, while leaving MS on auto update and be about as safe as a Mac user. Less upkeep, you just proved it. To get MORE security than a diligent Windows user, all a Mac person has to do is nothing.

35ft6
01-25-2009, 04:10 PM
OH SNAP! The lead for PC's has been cut down to 1!Considering that 80% of the market is Windows, it's interesting that the poll is so close.

WBF
01-25-2009, 05:49 PM
35ft6: It does apply to him though, as many college courses require proprietary software that occasionally requires a particular OS, and while there are exceptions, Windows is the requirement more often than not.

As for a Mac person doing nothing for more security... Not only are you wrong, but that statement indicates that you should not be commenting on this topic. How much experience do you have with the subject of security?

NickC
01-25-2009, 06:39 PM
I've been using both for 10 years now. Where do I fit in?

Polaris
01-25-2009, 08:01 PM
Mac or PC?

Either one is fine, as long as you run Linux on it. :)

Lakoste
01-25-2009, 08:16 PM
As for a Mac person doing nothing for more security... Not only are you wrong, but that statement indicates that you should not be commenting on this topic. How much experience do you have with the subject of security?
I can't speak for 35ft6, but I do have some experience in IT security. Please enlighten me to what a Mac user should do to make their computer more secure. Also, what are they making their Mac more secure from? Viruses? Spyware? I'm confused...
I've been using both for 10 years now. Where do I fit in?

+1
I've been really happy with my Apple Laptop + PC Desktop formula for a while now. Although recently I've been kind of blah on the current Apple laptops, so my Air is collecting dust and I'm using my x300 for travel.

Noveson
01-25-2009, 08:25 PM
I can't speak for 35ft6, but I do have some experience in IT security. Please enlighten me to what a Mac user should do to make their computer more secure. Also, what are they making their Mac more secure from? Viruses? Spyware? I'm confused...


+1
I've been really happy with my Apple Laptop + PC Desktop formula for a while now. Although recently I've been kind of blah on the current Apple laptops, so my Air is collecting dust and I'm using my x300 for travel.

Same for me. I recently got a MacBookPro 17 for college and am loving it. Although it is not needed too much right now.

What do you do to protect yours? Assumming it needs any?

WBF
01-26-2009, 07:08 PM
I can't speak for 35ft6, but I do have some experience in IT security. Please enlighten me to what a Mac user should do to make their computer more secure. Also, what are they making their Mac more secure from? Viruses? Spyware? I'm confused...

If you think doing nothing on a Mac offers more security you are being ignorant, plain and simple.

Here was my original contention:

Mac doesn't require 'less upkeep' or 'less money' though. You can run a good, free anti virus and the Windows Firewall, while leaving MS on auto update and be about as safe as a Mac user.

In response to this bit:

But Mac requires less upkeep, less money spent on software to protect it against viruses

Do you disagree with this?

IMHO they are about equal. I suppose downloading a free anti-virus product takes a small amount of time up front. If that is too difficult a case, I agree that the Mac takes slightly less to get going with reasonable security.

But if you think a Mac user with no protection is more secure... That's a bit naive, and probably hurtful in the long run when people like 35ft6 say something that someone might interpret as 'the mac is safe without doing anything proactive' (I realize this isn't close to what he said, but that is how many interpret it).

Okazaki Fragment
01-26-2009, 07:15 PM
I've been using both for 10 years now. Where do I fit in?

You're bi-computer. An outcast of both the PC and Mac worlds.....unless you're a girl. Then it's kind of hot.

Lakoste
01-27-2009, 10:03 AM
What do you do to protect yours? Assumming it needs any?
I don't use any extra security on my Macs. On my work desktop I use Kaspersky, and on my Windows Laptops I don't use any anti-virus either, just a weekly scan.
If you think doing nothing on a Mac offers more security you are being ignorant, plain and simple.

Good thing I never said that, so I guess I'm not ignorant. I'm saying that you don't need to install any extra security on a Mac, unless you're clicking every popup out there and downloading all the porn in the world. So you, WBF, would need extra security on a Mac.

lawlaw
01-27-2009, 10:32 AM
Mac! PC has more users and as such has more people sending all sorts of malicious programs which led to formatting the thing all the time. Very annoying when you are on the road. I used a mac for design, got a laptop and never looked back. Macs are overpriced and have some quality issues but I have only had one problem with 3 laptops and none with the desktops.

http://img35.imagehaven.net/images/4029790a0b0066efe16ad51cff7b2b62/497fc2ac/ADDSO9O64I_DSC00598.jpg

1 x 24" Mac 500GB, 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM
1 x 20" Mac 250GB, 2GHz, 2GB RAM
1 x MacBook, 250GB, 2.16GHz, 2GB RAM

NickC
01-27-2009, 11:21 AM
You're bi-computer. An outcast of both the PC and Mac worlds.....unless you're a girl. Then it's kind of hot.

Not a girl. Not an outcast, either. I use a PC for school and gaming, and take my laptop with me on trips. I've always had a Mac as my home computer. I've had my current Mac for 6 years running, or something around that. Solid machine.

WBF
01-27-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm saying that you don't need to install any extra security on a Mac, unless you're clicking every popup out there and downloading all the porn in the world. So you, WBF, would need extra security on a Mac.

Errr... Unless you 'click on every popup out there and download all the porn in the world', you don't need any security suite for Windows either.

Hot Sauce
01-27-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm saying that you don't need to install any extra security on a Mac, unless you're clicking every popup out there and downloading all the porn in the world.

I need extra security.

kimbahpnam
01-27-2009, 05:55 PM
Mac.

If you don't like Mac because you can't run PC programs, then install Bootcamp (which is free btw) or Parallels and you can run both!

You can't run a Mac OS on a PC, but you can run Windows on a Mac.

Lakoste
01-27-2009, 06:43 PM
Errr... Unless you 'click on every popup out there and download all the porn in the world', you don't need any security suite for Windows either.

Not entirely true, sometimes it is inevitable for a Windows user to avoid a virus since there are so many of them out there. I even remember an article not too long ago saying how some people got infected by going to a phony Obama site. Lucky for Macs, the market share is way too low for viruses to be made for OSX. That will probably change in the future as Macs get more popular, but I've been saying the same thing for 5+ years now.

maverick66
01-27-2009, 07:21 PM
Not entirely true, sometimes it is inevitable for a Windows user to avoid a virus since there are so many of them out there. I even remember an article not too long ago saying how some people got infected by going to a phony Obama site. Lucky for Macs, the market share is way too low for viruses to be made for OSX. That will probably change in the future as Macs get more popular, but I've been saying the same thing for 5+ years now.

theres one now thats coming from torrents. it was gonna happen everyone knew it. its disgused as one of the new programs for mac. it had to happen and all the mac users have to start being a little more carefull.

J-man
01-27-2009, 10:28 PM
Not entirely true, sometimes it is inevitable for a Windows user to avoid a virus since there are so many of them out there. I even remember an article not too long ago saying how some people got infected by going to a phony Obama site. Lucky for Macs, the market share is way too low for viruses to be made for OSX. That will probably change in the future as Macs get more popular, but I've been saying the same thing for 5+ years now.Its not market share. Macs are harder to write viruses for. Plain and simple

Okazaki Fragment
01-27-2009, 10:29 PM
Ahh.. I can't believe PCs lost by one vote! Damn you, Macs.

Hot Sauce
01-27-2009, 11:56 PM
Why is the poll closed though?

WBF
01-28-2009, 03:32 AM
Not entirely true, sometimes it is inevitable for a Windows user to avoid a virus since there are so many of them out there. I even remember an article not too long ago saying how some people got infected by going to a phony Obama site. Lucky for Macs, the market share is way too low for viruses to be made for OSX. That will probably change in the future as Macs get more popular, but I've been saying the same thing for 5+ years now.

Lakoste: Nope. That involves user action.

Also: Now that Macs are making inroads on the desktop, they are seeing more vulnerabilities... But ultimately, Windows and Unix will be the largest targets, given the sensitive data they often contain (Unix being used in servers, Windows on the desktop and servers in various organizations).

Windows is also a huge target for OS exploits that have been patched, given the inability of pirated copies to update. I think MS made a huge mistake on that one. Conficker is a great example, with countries like the US (less piracy) having far fewer infections than Asia and Latin America. MS has made huge inroads in the world of security, but there is certainly more they could do.

Ultimately, the biggest issue is ignorance. Ignorant users, ignorant corporate types who forgo security at the early stages of design/development (apps are far more problematic than operating systems, and these issues appear on every platform. Most don't update automatically, and many have numerous vulnerabilities) etc.

diredesire
01-28-2009, 11:52 AM
Mac.

If you don't like Mac because you can't run PC programs, then install Bootcamp (which is free btw) or Parallels and you can run both!

You can't run a Mac OS on a PC, but you can run Windows on a Mac.
You can run Mac OSX on PCs. It just requires a little finesse ;)
Why do you think we can run windows (natively) on apple hardware? It's all x86 compliant! For the same reason now that we can run OSX on intel hardware, we can run OSX on "PCs."

It's not super easy, by any means, though. Like an above user has said, Windows supports a wide variety of hardware, whereas OSX only supports a limited slice. Thus, hacked drivers, etc are necessary for some/many configs.

Not entirely true, sometimes it is inevitable for a Windows user to avoid a virus since there are so many of them out there. I even remember an article not too long ago saying how some people got infected by going to a phony Obama site. Lucky for Macs, the market share is way too low for viruses to be made for OSX. That will probably change in the future as Macs get more popular, but I've been saying the same thing for 5+ years now.

I used to agree with this approach re: mac security, but I think it's going to be pretty outdated very shortly. People downloading Photoshop and iLife (or was it iWork...) '09 were happy to receive... trojans! I'm not commenting on the appropriateness of pirating software, but security vulnerabilities and issues ARE there.


Also: Now that Macs are making inroads on the desktop, they are seeing more vulnerabilities... But ultimately, Windows and Unix will be the largest targets, given the sensitive data they often contain (Unix being used in servers, Windows on the desktop and servers in various organizations).

Windows is also a huge target for OS exploits that have been patched, given the inability of pirated copies to update. I think MS made a huge mistake on that one. Conficker is a great example, with countries like the US (less piracy) having far fewer infections than Asia and Latin America. MS has made huge inroads in the world of security, but there is certainly more they could do.

Ultimately, the biggest issue is ignorance. Ignorant users, ignorant corporate types who forgo security at the early stages of design/development (apps are far more problematic than operating systems, and these issues appear on every platform. Most don't update automatically, and many have numerous vulnerabilities) etc.

I agree with your post! Don't forget that OSX is "based" (i use this term loosely) on UNIX. I agree with what you said about pirating, limiting security updates to legit copies was a bad idea. I think that for the most part, high importance security updates are still deployable to pirated copies (they retain eligibility, IIRC).

Either way, there are ways to get updates, if you are "smart" enough to use a pirated copy of software, you should be smart enough to figure out how to do so. The ignorant thing really rings true here.

theagassiman
03-31-2009, 08:27 PM
Just how crap are they?
Like the Mac OS 9, which the monitor Apple built for it looked like it was designed by a 3-year old.
Or the one for the OS X in which looks like a flattened potato.

In fact the Apple 2 is aesthetically the best. And that was released in 1984.

Go figure.

Anyway, this thread isn't just about macs 'looks' (if it has any).
This thread is also about:
1. how slow they are
2. how annoying they are
3. how crap they are

DISCUSS!!!!!

kimbahpnam
03-31-2009, 08:28 PM
Macs are the best.

theagassiman
03-31-2009, 08:29 PM
Macs are the best.

You're kidding right?

Hot Sauce
03-31-2009, 08:44 PM
I hate Macs, but they seem to get a lot of love.

Polaris
03-31-2009, 09:14 PM
Just how crap are they?
Like the Mac OS 9, which the monitor Apple built for it looked like it was designed by a 3-year old.
Or the one for the OS X in which looks like a flattened potato.

In fact the Apple 2 is aesthetically the best. And that was released in 1984.

Go figure.

Anyway, this thread isn't just about macs 'looks' (if it has any).
This thread is also about:
1. how slow they are
2. how annoying they are
3. how crap they are

DISCUSS!!!!!
I think you are deliberately trying to stir up an argument. Many people think that Macs are extremely well-designed computers. I use Ubuntu, but I think I would be quite happy with a Mac.

BTW, they aren't any slower than Vista PCs, though they might be slightly slower than some versions of Linux. Regarding your other points, "annoying" and "crap" say nothing about anything.

HipHerring
03-31-2009, 09:50 PM
Macs are pretty much the standard for the audio/video industry.

Although somebody actually in the industry could tell you better than I could. I think macs are equal to PCs in everyday usage. I primarily use my computer for gaming, so PC is better for me. :D

mtommer
03-31-2009, 10:18 PM
John actually wasn't too bad. Pat was never that great though.

WBF
04-01-2009, 03:41 AM
Macs are great. I personally prefer the Windows environment, but I'm not an idiot.

rafaelnadalfan1234
04-01-2009, 03:44 AM
macs are superior over PCs

WBF
04-01-2009, 03:50 AM
macs are superior over PCs

This is an equally absurd comment. Hell, more so. You do realize that Macs ARE PCs right? You just pay the Apple tax for the OS and limited choice of hardware.

max
04-01-2009, 05:33 AM
macs are superior over PCs

I agree. Always have been.

SaunderS
04-01-2009, 09:19 AM
I think they should just stick to ipods.

goober
04-01-2009, 09:34 AM
At one point MACs were easier to use than PCs, but that pretty much went away around Windows 98. Now I can't see any major advantages to MACs for home use other than they don't have as many viruses and worms.

OTOH PCs have cheaper hardware, software, wider range of choices for everything. Gaming on a MAC pretty much is a frustrating experience.

canadave
04-01-2009, 09:45 AM
I think they should add "Mac vs. PC" discussions to the list of taboo topics that people should never discuss at a social event, along with religion and politics. They always wind up descending into childish name-calling.

But I'll bite on this one, because I'm bored.

I've worked with PC's for over 20 years doing tech support, from Wall Street to small Canadian towns. My first PC was a TRS-80 and I bought my last PC about five years ago. So I think I know a tiny bit about PC's.

I used to look down my nose at Macs. I had a Mac Classic many, many moons ago, when I was a kid, but that was it. I thought Macs were overpriced and I thought the Mac fanboyism was just plain silly.

However, when Macs went to the Intel platform and I realized I could have a PC AND a Mac in the same box, and because my wife liked Macs, I bought her a Mac laptop when she asked for one for Xmas about 3 years ago.

After using it, I was hooked, and wound up buying myself a Mac Pro, which I love. To me, Macs are so much simpler to use in terms of things like playing around with photos, composing movies, doing "human" things. Obviously they're not ideal gaming platforms, and they're not as fully upgradeable and customizable in hardware as PC's are. But those drawbacks to me are not major big deals, since I can run Windows on my Mac Pro for the things I want to run there, and I can use the Mac side for the things I like doing on the Mac side.

The fact that a Mac can also be a Windows machine, AND is almost completely immune to viruses out of the box, AND has a smoother interface than PC's (that last bit is just my personal opinion), to me makes them worth the extra cost. It's a closed system that works well for me....I'm not as much of a tinkerer as I used to be, I just want the damned thing to work without me tweaking a million things. Macs do that perfectly.

Just my .02...if you love PC's, that's fine too...but definitely try using a Mac if you haven't tried it. Once you go Mac, you'll never go back ;)

RD 7
04-01-2009, 09:46 AM
I own a pc and a mac. I like them both. the main difference is the viruses. the pc requires bulky security measures and a lot more general babysitting to keep the OS fast.

eagle
04-01-2009, 09:50 AM
John actually wasn't too bad. Pat was never that great though.

Funny. :)

r,
eagle

kimbahpnam
04-01-2009, 10:10 AM
I've had both...actually still have both.

Macs are way more stable. Don't have to worry about them crashing or blue screening. OS interface is better. Audio/Visual engineering programs are better.

With bootcamp I can enjoy a PC on my Mac.

logansc
04-01-2009, 10:35 AM
Having used both and owning both, I personally love my Mac for everyday use, I love the interface, it's fast, doesn't crash and is very portable. My PC on the other hand, I use for work and for gaming, though I am more of a console gamer myself.

mucat
04-01-2009, 11:21 AM
It is a way of life.

PC is about freedom. You can pick and choose the components you want, video card, cpu, motherboard, harddrive, all the way down to fans, color of fans, screws, color of screws. Then you can pick the OS you want to use. It is all about freedom.

Macs is about some old guy telling you that you are cool and hip and please buy my product while you are so cool. Did I mentioned you are so cool today?

(non-Macs) Pre-built machine is somewhere between this two.

NickC
04-01-2009, 12:12 PM
Grew up using both, still have both and use both. One isn't simply "better", it's just a matter of what you're trying to do. I use both on a consistent basis and love both of them.

kimbahpnam
04-01-2009, 12:20 PM
It is a way of life.

PC is about freedom. You can pick and choose the components you want, video card, cpu, motherboard, harddrive, all the way down to fans, color of fans, screws, color of screws. Then you can pick the OS you want to use. It is all about freedom.

Macs is about some old guy telling you that you are cool and hip and please buy my product while you are so cool. Did I mentioned you are so cool today?

(non-Macs) Pre-built machine is somewhere between this two.

Well, the whole point of having different models/options in Macs is pretty much so you can pick and choose the components. Granted, there isn't the variety of options that PC has.

I don't have a desktop Mac, I use my MB Pro for everything including PC games.

atatu
04-01-2009, 12:38 PM
I have both, but I never use my PC anymore...Macs are great.

mucat
04-01-2009, 12:43 PM
Well, the whole point of having different models/options in Macs is pretty much so you can pick and choose the components. Granted, there isn't the variety of options that PC has.

I don't have a desktop Mac, I use my MB Pro for everything including PC games.

Comparing Mac models/options to what you can do to a PC is like comparing a 2.0 to 7.0 player. It is not in the same league.

I would like to see you upgrade you Mac to sli videocard(s), aftermarket HSF and overclock it.

albino smurf
04-01-2009, 12:50 PM
I can't stand even looking at Windows machines. Step up to a quad G5 if you think they are slow.

goober
04-01-2009, 12:53 PM
Comparing Mac models/options to what you can do to a PC is like comparing a 2.0 to 7.0 player. It is not in the same league.

I would like to see you upgrade you Mac to sli videocard(s), aftermarket HSF and overclock it.

TO be fair, the only time you ever have to do that is with high end 3D gaming. Even then it is questionable if you if it is necesary in most cases if you are not a hardcore gamer. That said, I have OC'ed my CPU, GPU and even tried water cooling at one point:mrgreen: But now I am back to normal-hehe

kimbahpnam
04-01-2009, 01:17 PM
TO be fair, the only time you ever have to do that is with high end 3D gaming. Even then it is questionable if you if it is necesary in most cases if you are not a hardcore gamer. That said, I have OC'ed my CPU, GPU and even tried water cooling at one point:mrgreen: But now I am back to normal-hehe

I've been down that path too, building a PC from scratch. It's a fun learning experience and there's some pride in knowing you built it yourself. I had nifty lights and stealth drives, big fat arse heatsink for OC'in, etc. I also now returned back to a life without all that stuff. My MB Pro has done the job for me just fine. All I need is bootcamp and enough to run counterstrike to meet my gaming needs :twisted:

Rob Johnson
04-01-2009, 01:31 PM
I have a macbook, and I love it also. I prefer it over Windows, but mainly because I think it's more intelligently designed. It doesn't crash, and it generally runs smoother with the same amount of RAM. The Clip-Screencap feature is genius (Command + shift + 4).

Having said that, my work PC still has Windows XP and is extremely stable, and I've never used Windows Vista. So take my opinion for what it is.

Roy Hobbs
04-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Just how crap are they?
Like the Mac OS 9, which the monitor Apple built for it looked like it was designed by a 3-year old.
Or the one for the OS X in which looks like a flattened potato.

In fact the Apple 2 is aesthetically the best. And that was released in 1984.

Go figure.

Anyway, this thread isn't just about macs 'looks' (if it has any).
This thread is also about:
1. how slow they are
2. how annoying they are
3. how crap they are

DISCUSS!!!!!

I own and use a Mac as well as multiple PCs on a daily basis. Could I get by with just one platform? Sure, probably. But the creative professionals in my field all speak Mac. And the business stuff gets handled via PC.

1. I've had no experience of a Mac being slow relative to a PC.

2. The computer itself is annoying? Might want to be specific. I often find Apple's marketing to be annoying, though exceptionally successful. Seems like a lot of hatred comes from the perceived snobbery associated with Apple, e.g. higher price points, the "hipness" factor, etc. But I don't blame the wonderfully-engineering products themselves.

3. How crap they are? How crap is this question?

tennisguyak
04-01-2009, 01:55 PM
I think macs and the mac os are much more aesthetically pleasing, but imo, pcs are more software friendly (as in more software for the os).

Here's what I would do if I could get my hands on a brand new PC/Laptop right now:
Uninstall Vista, Install XP Pro SP2, Install a mac transformation pack, Install all my favorite software.

But for now I'm stuck with my crap PC with 256 MB ram, 60 GB HDD, Sempron Proccesor.:(

albino smurf
04-01-2009, 04:03 PM
The software that comes free on a Mac is worth the cost of the computer.

mucat
04-01-2009, 05:11 PM
I can't stand even looking at Windows machines. Step up to a quad G5 if you think they are slow.

What processor is in the current G5? How much? And how fast?

mucat
04-01-2009, 05:21 PM
TO be fair, the only time you ever have to do that is with high end 3D gaming. Even then it is questionable if you if it is necesary in most cases if you are not a hardcore gamer. That said, I have OC'ed my CPU, GPU and even tried water cooling at one point:mrgreen: But now I am back to normal-hehe

To me. It is not about high end gaming. It is about values. I already have the CPU and vidoecard that could do higher than stock speed and give a little performance boost. Why not use it? I don't put lights or custom fan grill in my PC. Because I don't look at the case when I am using it. I don't care. I care about values, performance vs. moola. That's why I don't do water cooling and sli (for now) because you will most likely to pay a lot more for a little gain. For the same reason, I can't go to Mac, I can accomplish the same task on a PC, why pay more. I don't like people telling me to pay more for the same thing, it sounds too much like I got scammed.

mucat
04-01-2009, 05:22 PM
The software that comes free on a Mac is worth the cost of the computer.

The softwares that come free with internet worth a lot more if you know where to look. ;)

WildVolley
04-01-2009, 06:23 PM
I think the Macs improved a lot when they switched over to the OSX and then moved to the Intel chip. The current Mac operating system just runs on top of Unix, but even it is becoming popular enough that viruses and bot attacks are being developed for it.

I like the new laptops, but I don't have any experience with them. Apple made a lot of dogs in the past, but their products are usually well designed. I once took a part an iBook and you had to almost completely disassemble the thing to get at the hard drive.

I don't have enough need or money to get a Mac at this point. I'm writing this on a PC I slapped together a couple years ago.

topspin
04-01-2009, 11:32 PM
I've worked and sold computer for almost 20 years and have not got hooked on macs at all. I don't have a ton of experience with them but I do have a few clients that have them and have asked me to help them install software. I am not really impressed with the speed or the interface. I do know that macs are the preferred choice for graphic artists. But for everyone else, including myself, I can do absolutely everything I need with my pc running windows xp. Viruses are not a big deal as long as you have a decent antivirus software (They are not all bulky). The main thing to keep in mind regarding viruses is to just use common sense and avoid downloading executable attachments and avoid clicking popups and avoid questionable websites.

Incidently, one of my clients bought a new mac laptop and it would not shut down after about 1 month use. Macs are still computers and still prone to failure. Be careful with the whole marketing aspect behind macs. They are marketed to be 'cool'. But is it cool to pay a lot more and have limited hardware/software choice?

kimbahpnam
04-02-2009, 12:20 AM
1. Macs are very slow compared to PC

2. Apples are very annoying in that they are so much more expensive than microsofts and they are a lot crappier (in most branches)

3. Apples are VERY crap, especially the OS 9, however the OSX isn't that bad, even close to vista in annoyingness, even though it looks like a flattened potato.
as you see it.

It's nice that you're offering your own opinion, but how about empirical evidence. You're not convincing anyone.

Here's what I prefer each system for:
PC - games, web browsing, some software
Mac - academics, audio/video editing/recording/watching/listening, aesthetics, reliability, more basic built-in functions

I think there is a slight speed difference in favor of the PC when it comes to opening/closing programs and boot up speed, but that's not enough for me to switch teams.

Fedfan4life
04-02-2009, 12:40 AM
I don't understand what the OP is trying to get to. If you cannot afford apple stuff then stop hating, from what your telling us is that no one has you over a barrel and is forcing you to buy a mac. Stick with what your happy with and let us mac guys enjoy their what we've spent our money with.

And with the stop paying the "apple tax" microsoft campaign. Everyone can agree that that's microsoft's very bad marketing campaign against apple. Just ask the actress that MS hired for their latest commerial.

theagassiman
04-02-2009, 02:04 AM
I don't understand what the OP is trying to get to. If you cannot afford apple stuff then stop hating, from what your telling us is that no one has you over a barrel and is forcing you to buy a mac. Stick with what your happy with and let us mac guys enjoy their what we've spent our money with.

And with the stop paying the "apple tax" microsoft campaign. Everyone can agree that that's microsoft's very bad marketing campaign against apple. Just ask the actress that MS hired for their latest commerial.

Well, from the way people on this thread are talking, they just think I'm just some guy who just wants to pick on macs just cos I have nothing to do and want to be annoying.

Well let me tell you this.
I had to spend 6 years in a high school full of Mac OS 9s and they were the crappiest, worst computers I have ever used in my entire life. So there you go Fedfan4life, for those 6 years I had no life, cos I just sat there for 10 minutes each time I wanted to use the damn computer, because the stupid thing took so long to load.

Now you may understand why I hate macs so much.
From what I have expeirenced with the new OS X, Macs have improved dramatically since then, but I'm sorry to say that beacuse of that
stupid OS 9, I will hate macs forever.

kimbahpnam
04-02-2009, 02:12 AM
Well, from the way people on this thread are talking, they just think I'm just some guy who just wants to pick on macs just cos I have nothing to do and want to be annoying.

Well let me tell you this.
I had to spend 6 years in a high school full of Mac OS 9s and they were the crappiest, worst computers I have ever used in my entire life. So there you go Fedfan4life, for those 6 years I had no life, cos I just sat there for 10 minutes each time I wanted to use the damn computer, because the stupid thing took so long to load.

Now you may understand why I hate macs so much.
From what I have expeirenced with the new OS X, Macs have improved dramatically since then, but I'm sorry to say that beacuse of that
stupid OS 9, I will hate macs forever.

Come on.....you're telling me Windows ME and 2000 were jewels?

...let's not forget Vista