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shavenyak
09-05-2008, 11:47 PM
I was having this discussion in another thread regarding this and we drifted the thread, so I'm posting here.

Was the US led NATO action in Yugoslavia (now Serbia) "Operation Allied Force" warranted, or was it just an excuse for the US under Clinton and General Wesley Clark in congress with Vladimir Putin to carpet bomb innocent civilians and their infrastructure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force

Discuss.

Love Game
09-06-2008, 01:25 AM
This question came up because someone on a tennis thread stated he was glad he didn't live in Serbia because Novak Djokovic's father might come after him if he did. I thought that was an offensive remark because it made the speculation about whether or not D's dad would do such a thing a function of his nation of origin and, as such, an indirect slap at Djok, himself, who was one of the subjects of the thread.

As a way of pointing out that there are other reasons he should be glad he didn't live in Serbia that have nothing to do with Djokovic or his dad, I responded, "You can also be glad you didn't get your house, your church, your school, your roads, your bridges, your businesses carpet bombed for 80 straight days by Pres. Clinton and Gen.Wesley Clark and Vladimir Putin a few years ago!" @
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2684144&postcount=362

The question, as I understood it, was whether or not Pres. Bill Clinton did in fact send Gen. Wesley Clark (who became Supreme Allied Commander over NATO) and whether in fact Nato, under Commander Clark did (without once [unlike the multiple times Pres. Bush went to the UN about Iraq] going to the UN before their attack) carpet bomb Serbian infrastructure for 80-straight days.

NATO Bombed My Family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtFhLyGKq44

Serb Protest NATO bombing 4/7/99 NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c19XcMU-lsc

Aside:
"Between August 1992 and April 1994, Clark was commander of the 1st Cavalry Division of the Army's III Corps at Fort Hood, Texas. According to a report by the U.S. Department of the Treasury, the list of military personnel and equipment used at Waco included: 15 active-duty military personnel, 13 Texas National Guard personnel, nine Bradley fighting vehicles, five combat-engineer vehicles, one tank-retrieval vehicle and two M1A1 Abrams tanks. Additionally, Fort Hood reportedly was used for much of the training for the bloody attack on the Davidians and their children."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35094

Love Game
09-06-2008, 01:29 AM
Novak Djokovic's Kosovo Kids,
Talks about Serbia/Yugoslavia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI2w5-GzfPA

Love Game
09-06-2008, 02:59 AM
"...And now, Bill Clinton wants to send additional 4,000 American troops to Kosovo, a part of a 28,000 strong NATO occupying force? ...

Yet, our hapless Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, once again earned her Halfbright epithet when she gloated over the Brcko decision.

"The only city that could have, and should have been granted the status of a district was Sarajevo, the nominal capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina," said in a release Dr. Vojin Kostunica, leader of the Democratic Party of Serbia, a Belgrade opposition party which has consistently criticized both the Serbian president, Slobodan Milosevic, and the West, for their handling of the Balkan conflicts. "This very same U.S. administration, which has committed itself to a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic Brcko, came out against the multi-cultural and multi-ethnic character of Sarajevo. It basically supported an ethnically pure Muslim Sarajevo, without the 120,000 Serbs, who left the city in the winter of 1996 (one result of Dayton). Thus, the Clinton administration has legalized another large case of ethnic cleansing, the sole victims of which were the Serbs. Accordingly, yesterday's Brcko decision by the U.S. arbiter (Robert Owens) and the U.S. State Secretary's rejoicing about it, were not only legally debatable, but also morally shameful."

The Dayton Agreement, which ended the Bosnian war in late 1995, was being dismantled, piece-by-piece, by the various ethnic factions practically from the moment it was signed. So its life expectancy has already exceeded that of the most patients supported by artificial respiration. Which is why it will be a supreme irony if the final nail in the Dayton's coffin were to be driven by its Washington creators and their imperial viceroys, like Westendorp. ..."

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/Bulletins99/tim99-3-2.html

Love Game
09-06-2008, 03:14 AM
http://i38.tinypic.com/2jetpqr.png

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/Kosovo/tim-war.html

malakas
09-06-2008, 03:22 AM
There have been murders by Serbians but by the Albanians as well.The US just chose which side it wanted,and it fitted its interests best and it used this to start the war.This is politics and if you think for a minute,that US and NATO would waste millions for military and bombs to "protect the innocent" you couldn't be more wrong.Politics doesnt' work like that.
The first world war when millions of soldiers and innocent women and children were murdered and killed started supposedly over the murder of one man.If you believe THAT was the reason,then I suppose you can also believe that these incidents were the reason behind the bombings as well.

Love Game
09-06-2008, 03:26 AM
"When NATO's war on Serbia started on Mar. 24, 1999, we immediately called it the New Day of Infamy (see below). To which we can now add:

Mark this day - May 23, 1999 - the 61st day of NATO's war on a sovereign country - Yugoslavia - which has done us no harm. May 23 may be remembered as another New Day of Infamy. For, on this Sunday, the U.S. Constitution and the American system of government and justice also became the trampled victims of a President who had sworn to protect them.

The War Powers Act of 1973, a Vietnam War-era legislation, requires the sitting President to get congressional approval for the "introduction into hostilities" of the U.S. armed forces for longer than a 60 days.

On Apr. 28, the House rejected Clinton's war on Yugoslavia by a tie 213-213 vote, and threw out the proposed declaration of war on Yugoslavia by an overwhelming 427-2 vote. On May 4, our sheepish and squeamish Senate voted not to vote. By a 78-22 vote, the Senators put aside indefinitely a resolution which would have allowed Clinton to use "all necessary force" in his undeclared war on Yugoslavia.

Finally, just this past week (May 19), the House Armed Services Committee voted to prevent Clinton from using any of next year's $289 billion defense budget for his war on Yugoslavia.

Today is Day 61 of Clinton's undeclared war on Yugoslavia hostilities. The President has not obtained congressional approval. From this day forward, this is not only an undeclared war; it is an ILLEGAL war, according to the U.S. laws and Constitution.

Members of the U.S. armed forces who continue to participate in Clinton's illegal war should understand that they are now executing UNLAWFUL orders. And that, therefore, they are Clinton's accessories, not only in his war crimes against Serb and other civilians, but also in his violations of our federal laws, of our Constitution, and of the will of the American people, as expressed by Congress.

Which means that the American soldiers participating from this day forward in this illegal war on Yugoslavia, and not just their Draftdodger-cum-Commander-in-Chief, one day may face prosecution. Under the U.S., not only international laws. If there is still such thing as justice and civilized behavior left in our country.

So mark this day, May 23, 1999. By repudiating Congress, and therefore, the will of the people, Bill Clinton has now also entered uncharted territory in the American history. By putting themselves above the law, the President and his associates have now become outlaws."

http://www.truthinmedia.org/truthinmedia/Kosovo/tim-war.html

gj011
09-06-2008, 04:04 AM
Thanks Malakas and LoveGame, but I reported this thread for deletion.

There is enough Serb bashing on this board already.

This is a very painful topic for many Serbs and I am afraid it will get ugly if some of the posters cross the line again.

Anyway this is not a topic for a tennis board and for casual tennis fans to discuss.

Love Game
09-06-2008, 08:10 AM
Thank you for the heads-up, gj011.

Whether the thread gets deleted or closed, I'd like to ask some advice here, since we have no private messaging available.

How should I respond when I see a post such as the one I speak of in post #2?

Because there are Serbian players on both the men's and women's tours, I often see posts that are even more offensive to me, and I'm not even Serbian.

I ask because, when even such minor transgressions go unanswered, they seem to have a tendency to proliferate, and it bothers me a lot when I see that happening.

shavenyak
09-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Thank you for the heads-up, gj011.

Whether the thread gets deleted or closed, I'd like to ask some advice here, since we have no private messaging available.

How should I respond when I see a post such as the one I speak of in post #2?

Because there are Serbian players on both the men's and women's tours, I often see posts that are even more offensive to me, and I'm not even Serbian.

I ask because, when even such minor transgressions go unanswered, they seem to have a tendency to proliferate, and it bothers me a lot when I see that happening.

dennis10is was talking about the incident where Novak's dad went down to the local radio station and confronted the hosts because he didn't feel they were biased towards Novak enough in the match.

gj011
09-06-2008, 09:18 PM
Thanks LoveGame again. I am not sure what to do any more. Serb bashing and insults are getting really bad on this board. I was so upset after I saw what was posted on several threads today that I lost my cool with NamRanger and already mentioned dennis10is.

Not sure where are Mods or they intentionally ignore my complains.
I am ready to give up on this board.

lethalfang
09-06-2008, 09:54 PM
US is justified to intervene. Whether dropping bombs in Belgrade is the moral way to it, when the atrocities were occurring in Kosovo, is another debate.
However, US absolutely shouldn't support the succession of Kosovo from Serbia. That is simply not US business.

malakas
09-07-2008, 12:57 AM
Thanks LoveGame again. I am not sure what to do any more. Serb bashing and insults are getting really bad on this board. I was so upset after I saw what was posted on several threads today that I lost my cool with NamRanger and already mentioned dennis10is.

Not sure where are Mods or they intentionally ignore my complains.
I am ready to give up on this board.

Look gj011,this thread has no reason to be deleted,everyone having here a polite discussion with arguments,same as what has happened countless times in other threads about other sensivitive subjects.The other thread with Namranger getting racistic,yes some posts should be deleted but that's all.:)

lethalfang : Can you tell me the reasons why US was justified to intervene?Please do,I would like to know who made them protector of the suppresed nations.:roll:

Love Game
09-07-2008, 06:00 AM
Thanks LoveGame again. I am not sure what to do any more. Serb bashing and insults are getting really bad on this board. I was so upset after I saw what was posted on several threads today that I lost my cool with NamRanger and already mentioned dennis10is.

Not sure where are Mods or they intentionally ignore my complains.
I am ready to give up on this board.

Please don't give up on us.
Don't let "evil" triumph by starting to do nothing.
Besides, I love your mysterious XFiles smoking man avatar! http://i35.tinypic.com/zvv1w7.gif

Love Game
09-07-2008, 06:08 AM
Look gj011,this thread has no reason to be deleted,everyone having here a polite discussion with arguments,same as what has happened countless times in other threads about other sensivitive subjects.The other thread with Namranger getting racistic,yes some posts should be deleted but that's all.:)

lethalfang : Can you tell me the reasons why US was justified to intervene?Please do,I would like to know who made them protector of the suppresed nations.:roll:

How can you be so logical with such a zany av?
It always makes me laugh no matter what you write.

I sincerely hope we can arrive at some better understanding each side of the other, because I also have noticed what seemed to be "Serb-bashing," and I can't understand why. If Americans are bound to avoid discrimination on the basis of creed, color, country of origin, etc., then surely that protection should extend to Serbians as well.

I also would like to hear the answer to the question you asked lethalfang. Especially since the Bush administration has been castigated for going into Iraq after approaching the UN upwards of 10 times, while the Clinton administration didn't go to the UN even once before letting the bombs fly.

Love Game
09-07-2008, 07:13 AM
One man's opinion.....

A Foreign Policy Essay
By Bob Djurdjevic

PHOENIX, Nov. 25, 1995 - Suppose you steal your neighbor’s cattle, force him at gun point to sign over his farm to you, and then sell it off without his consent.

A scenario from a Wild West movie?

No. That’s what Slobodan Milosevic did to the Bosnian Serbs in Dayton. Having first weakened them militarily, he gave away their land without even telling them until the issue was fait accompli. He did it to appease the American negotiators into lifting the unfair and illegal UN sanctions imposed on Serbia in 1992.

Moral of the story? Ransom begets ransom which begets rewards. The Wild West robbers would have understood this logic perfectly. But seeing the supposedly "civilized international community" engage in such practices blows its halo away.

So be it... But the trouble is that instead of declaring peace and running like hell, Bill Clinton now wants to send 20,000 Americans as peace enforcers into this hell hole.

Now, if you were the farmer who was so brutally dispossessed of his property, and whose family was made homeless on their own land, what would you do when the sheriff or his deputies come to enforce such an unjust order?

http://www.truthinmedia.org/Truthinmedia/Bulletins/tim95-11.html

It's always stymied me why they glad-handed and used Milosevic to put together and finalize the Dayton Peace Accords and then turned around and bombed his country.

Love Game
09-07-2008, 08:04 AM
See map at link for Balkan demographics prior to the Dayton peace plan, Nov. 1995

http://www.truthinmedia.org/Truthinmedia/images/Bosnia95.jpg

"The former Yugoslavia touches on two NATO allies," Zimmermann said in his November 2 testimony on Capitol Hill. "It acts as an obstacle to communication between Western Europe and a third NATO ally - Turkey."

No wonder, George [Herbert Walker] Bush, another Yale graduate and a former CFR member, sent some 500 American troops to Macedonia in early 1993. In the Wild West, such a symbolic move would have been called driving a stake into the ground. In the New World Orderís power politics, the U.S. presence in Macedonia means the same thing - a stake in the ground claiming a new vassal. Which says it all about the differences between the Wild West and the New World Order.

Serbia Was the Only Non-Vassal Country in Eastern Europe, Intersecting both the "Green Interstate" and the "Iron Ring."

http://www.truthinmedia.org/Truthinmedia/Bulletins/tim95-11.html

Love Game
09-08-2008, 11:50 AM
"The Balkan Route was once the dominant route for trafficking opiate products to Europe. In recent years, as the Northern Route gained more prominence, the number of opiate products traveling through the Balkans has dropped from 80 percent to roughly 50 percent according to UNDCP and other sources. To make the trip through the Balkan Route, opium, morphine base, and heroin from Afghanistan are shipped directly to Iran or are transported to Peshawar or Quetta in Pakistan before crossing the Iran-Pakistan border for transport to Turkey. From there, opiates are then trafficked through Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia or through a southern leg in Albania and Yugoslavia before heading to the rest of Europe. The seaport of Karachi, Pakistan is also a main trafficking center for shipments overseas."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/centralasia/imap2.html

KLA Finances War with Heroin Sales
May 3, 1999

The Kosovo Liberation Army, which the Clinton administration has embraced and some members of Congress want to arm as part of the NATO bombing campaign, is a terrorist organization that has financed much of its war effort with profits from the sale of heroin.

Recently obtained intelligence documents show that drug agents in five countries, including the United States, believe the KLA has aligned itself with an extensive organized crime network centered in Albania that smuggles heroin and some cocaine to buyers throughout Western Europe and, to a lesser extent, the United States.

The documents tie members of the Albanian Mafia to a drug smuggling cartel based in Kosovo's provincial capital, Pristina. The cartel is manned by ethic Albanians who are members of the Kosovo National Front, whose armed wing is the KLA. The documents show it is one of the most powerful heroin smuggling organizations in the world, with much of its profits being diverted to the KLA to buy weapons.

The clandestine movement of drugs over a collection of land and sea routes from Turkey through Bulgaria, Greece and Yugoslavia to Western Europe and elsewhere is so frequent and massive that intelligence officials have dubbed the circuit the "Balkan Route." ..."
http://www.bulgaria-italia.com/fry/kla.htm

gj011
09-08-2008, 12:26 PM
Please don't give up on us.
Don't let "evil" triumph by starting to do nothing.
Besides, I love your mysterious XFiles smoking man avatar! http://i35.tinypic.com/zvv1w7.gif

Thanks Love Game for doing all this. I am really tired and lost patience to discuss this topic any more.

I am still here, as you can see :)

By the way, it is Janko Tipsarevic on my avatar ;)

Love Game
09-08-2008, 11:32 PM
Thanks Love Game for doing all this. I am really tired and lost patience to discuss this topic any more.

I am still here, as you can see :)

By the way, it is Janko Tipsarevic on my avatar ;)

Tipsy smokes?! :shock:

I never saw him before wimby, but I kinda started liking him when he befuddled Roddick. But then did you see him against, I think it was, Schuettler of Germany, where he was giving out loud and loooooong groans? He was annoying the heck out of the commentator with those groans and the match went 4 sets, but Schuettler managed to take it all in stride and aside from that it was quite an interesting match that Schuettler eventually won.

Anyway, I'm awfully glad youre gonna hang in there. I may post one more post and then let this thread die a natural death. Did you watch the youtube with Novak's Kosovo Kids? He's quite a remarkable young man, IMO.