Where Does Power from Serve Come From

[kenshireen]

Does the shoulder rotation or wrist snap create most of the power.

thanks, Ken

[10s talk]

no, your weight transfering forward

[wihamilton]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/sports/4221210.html

[GeorgeLucas]

It comes from the groin.

[stormholloway]

I disagree with the Popular Mechanics article. If it 'comes' from anywhere it's the legs, but it's a chain. The legs, then the core, then the shoulder. The wrist is passive, despite all the talk.

[wihamilton]

Well the wrist isn't passive. The way it moves is similar to hammering a nail into a wall. If you watch this video (http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/videos/index.php/view/981/241/Oliver_Akli_Tennis_Flat_Serve), freeze at 18 seconds. There is an "L" shape formed between the racket and the hitting arm. Play it to contact (~19 seconds). The racket is extended up via the "hammering motion."

It should be noted that pronation is separate. It happens at the same time, bringing the racket from on edge to contact. But it doesn't effect how the wrist moves to bring the racket up to contact.

To summarize, the wrist adds power w/the hammering motion + gets the racket up to the correct contact point.

[TonyB]

Main factors are shoulder rotation and wrist snap. Primarily shoulder/arm whip and secondarily wrist snap.

Good players can serve bombs without even using their legs.

[stormholloway]

But the racquet moves up to contact without help from the wrist.

[Mountain Ghost]

While portions of serve power come from different parts of the body, whenever a student shows up with a weak serve, it’s often due to an incomplete elbow bend and a shallow (or non-existent) racquet drop.

As for the wrist helping, of course it does. The upward movement of the forearm alone could never get the racquet head to catch up and fly past the handle in time without – first resistance, then assistance – from the wrist. Feel the pressure at the base of the index finger as the arm rises from the racquet drop . . . the wrist is not passive.

MG

[Ross K]

While portions of serve power come from different parts of the body, whenever a student shows up with a weak serve, it’s often due to an incomplete elbow bend and a shallow (or non-existent) racquet drop. MG

Sorry, I'm just making sure I'm understanding you correctly... isn't an incomplete elbow bend and a shallow racket drop the same thing? In other words, if you just ensure your dropping the racket down properly then the problem is solved... or are you actually highlighting 2 seperate aspects or mechanics? If so, could you please expand on what's been said already.

Cheers

R.

[wihamilton]

Sorry, I'm just making sure I'm understanding you correctly... isn't an incomplete elbow bend and a shallow racket drop the same thing? In other words, if you just ensure your dropping the racket down properly then the problem is solved... or are you actually highlighting 2 seperate aspects or mechanics? If so, could you please expand on what's been said already.

Cheers

R.

Hey Ross. I think what MG is trying to say is that an incomplete elbow bend results in a shallow racket drop. In other words, the depth of your racket drop is partially controlled by how much you bend your elbow. As an experiment, take your tennis racket and scratch your upper back w/the racket. You are now, more or less, in the racket drop. Now try and scratch your lower back. You have to bend your elbow more to get the racket lower. As MG alluded to, the lower you get your racket the more racket head speed you'll be able to generate.

[Mountain Ghost]

I currently have 24 students. Some of them respond to the direct visualization of a “racquet drop” and some of them have to be told to focus on a “full elbow bend” to achieve a correct racquet drop.

Roddick’s racquet drop is very late in the stroke . . . much after his initial elbow bend. Some students who try to imitate him never get the racquet head low enough on the racquet drop. On the other hand I have a few students who can get the racquet head somewhat low with an elbow that is not properly bent. When this happens they can’t hit up on the ball and end up coming around the shoulder instead of over.

By using and selectively focusing on two separate mental reference points, the elbow bend and the racquet drop, everyone is eventually able to respond.

MG

[morten]

supination, then pronation of the forearm towards the ball. 90% comes from this move(see Stich, Bruguera(very underrated serve btw)) You can have Beckers knee bend, but without the pronation component right you will get zero power.

[Ross K]

Will, MG,

Thanks for the clarification. I confess that when I read whenever a student shows up with a weak serve, it’s often due to an incomplete elbow bend and a shallow (or non-existent) racquet drop. that definitely flagged up my interest... no prizes for guessing what I'm going to be examing next re my serve motion!

[mental midget]

I disagree with the Popular Mechanics article. If it 'comes' from anywhere it's the legs, but it's a chain. The legs, then the core, then the shoulder. The wrist is passive, despite all the talk.

legs help, but considering i've seen guys on their knees serve over 100mph, and considering michael stich had one of the best serves while looking as though he was in a body cast from the waist down, i don't think this is entirely true.

[mental midget]

supination, then pronation of the forearm towards the ball. 90% comes from this move(see Stich, Bruguera(very underrated serve btw)) You can have Beckers knee bend, but without the pronation component right you will get zero power.

yep. you can barely turn your shoulders, lock your legs, and still hit a pretty hard serve just through that 'last mile' forearm acceleration into the ball.

[Ballinbob]

this is a good question. I'd like to say deep knee bend but stitch still has a good serve without it. Probably transfering your weight and pronation, but not sure

[stormholloway]

legs help, but considering i've seen guys on their knees serve over 100mph, and considering michael stich had one of the best serves while looking as though he was in a body cast from the waist down, i don't think this is entirely true.

I'm just saying the legs are the first link in the chain. Of course the shoulder is more important, but if we're talking about where it starts, it's in the legs. You could essentially skip the legs. I've seen pros with very little knee bend. Ultimately though, you're energy should be directed upward, and the legs are perfect engineered to accomplish this task.

As for the wrist being active, there are plenty of experts out there who agree with me that the wrist is entirely passive, i.e. that there is no active pronation/flexion during the serve.

http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html

This is a whole other topic however.

[darkvard]

Does the shoulder rotation or wrist snap create most of the power.

thanks, Ken
Legs then shoulder then wrist twist

[Federer#1]

From the shoes.

[5263]

the legs are a pretty important part of starting the rise from the exceptional racket drop.

My contention is that the low racket drop, coupled with delayed elbow extension facilitated by the leg drive, is what can add that last 10-15% of speed. So if you can serve 100mph without good racket drop, delayed elbow extension, and leg drive, then you can easily hit 115 mph by adding these techniques. This is all assuming you have the fundamental basics of the motion down pretty solid. I consider the drop and delay as elite technique, not a basic fundamental.

So if your question refers to that over the top, elite type power, then this is where it comes from.

[Solat]

according to ITF Coaching Manual

Forward swing
contributions to racket speed at impact
• Leg drive 10%
• Trunk flexion 20%
• Internal rotation 30-40%
• Hand flexion 30%

[halalula1234]

legs hips shoulder wrist

[SystemicAnomaly]

Well the wrist isn't passive. The way it moves is similar to hammering a nail into a wall. If you watch this video (http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/videos/index.php/view/981/241/Oliver_Akli_Tennis_Flat_Serve), freeze at 18 seconds. There is an "L" shape formed between the racket and the hitting arm. Play it to contact (~19 seconds). The racket is extended up via the "hammering motion." ...

To my mind, "wrist snap" implies a significant wrist flexion. I just don't see it here (Oliver's serve) or for most accomplished servers. The wrist flexion appears to be rather mild and I would tend to characterize it as a (somewhat) passive action. The "wrist action" that I do see is primarily due to the pronation.

I'm fairly certain that John Yandell sees the service action this way as well.

.

[wyutani]

power comes from head speed. easy. end of story.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Excerpt from John Yandell book (http://books.google.com/books?id=TZ6zUnvBQ3gC&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=Yandell+tennis+serve+wrist&source=web&ots=UP4Hrn4OKg&sig=AldD9enOc5teZqRhKygP5cBJ5Po&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result)


Also, from Hi-Tech Tennis:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/images/dj_pronate.jpg

[Solat]

Excerpt from John Yandell book (http://books.google.com/books?id=TZ6zUnvBQ3gC&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=Yandell+tennis+serve+wrist&source=web&ots=UP4Hrn4OKg&sig=AldD9enOc5teZqRhKygP5cBJ5Po&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result)


Also, from Hi-Tech Tennis:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/images/dj_pronate.jpg

good photos of the internal rotation of the shoulder too ^^^^

[JCo872]

good photos of the internal rotation of the shoulder too ^^^^

Exactly Solat.

Throwing a football works the same way. Brett Favre has been having trouble generating as much pace on his throw in the last few games, and it is due to a shoulder injury. The sholder really rotates and extends away on a big first serve, as it does on a baseball throw or a football throw.

Also, Solat gives a good breakdown of the components above. The serve, more than any other stroke, involves a chain of events that need to be sequences properly. One of the biggest myths is that snapping your wrist through contact is what you need to do. That's not how a baseball player or quarterback throws, and its not how a big first serve is generated. All these throwing motions end with the arm fully extended forward having rotated interally from the shoulder. I can spot a "wrist snapper" right away, because they don't finish like Djokovic or Hewitt in the above picture and they wonder why their wrist snap isn't giving them any power.

[mordecai]

The popular mechanics article is really wrong. The largest amounts of power in the stroke come from the largest muscles in your body (Surprise!). The leg drive and upper body rotation to force your energy up are far more important than using your hand. Typically the hand and arm are taught to be completely passive till the end of the stroke, and at the end their action is driven as a direct result of your core explosion anyway.

If you want to develop more power in your serve, make sure you can consistently serve with a relaxed swinging arm, and then try to change your timing so that you push off your legs harder and rotate your shoulders faster.

The most powerful serves I've hit have been when I consciously try to rotate my body faster. When I tried to swing harder or faster, the shot would usually be more innefective than in the first place.

[Soar]

i think maybeee the speed of the racquet drop, but idk. if anything i agree that i feel the energy rise through the center of my legs and up through my body to the racquet. if u focus too much on power ur gonna be stiff anywayss

[paulfreda]

I think that the big muscles and the legs provide the platform and stability necessary for Power for all shots, not just serve.

The physics says that racquethead speed determines power delivered to the ball.
But this is hard to impossible to do well without the stability and platform provided by the legs and big shoulder and torso muscles.
It all works together.

[junbumkim]

I would have to say hip stretch and shoulder turn. Most importantly, the ability to transfer the momentum from these two elements into a swing speed.

From my experience, knee bend seems to give the serve a little more "kick", but hip stretch seems to give more pace.