PDA

View Full Version : Can I play 3.5 League if I self rate 3.0?


cxw0106
12-05-2008, 05:50 AM
I plan to self rate 3.0 and join a Mixed Doubles 7.0 league. I wonder if I can still join another 3.5 league and play some 3.5 singles or doubles? Thanks.

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:00 AM
I plan to self rate 3.0 and join a Mixed Doubles 7.0 league. I wonder if I can still join another 3.5 league and play some 3.5 singles or doubles? Thanks.

You sure can. You can self-rate at 3.0 and only play 3.5 if you want. The only problem with self-rating at 3.0 is that people might think you will not cut it on 3.5 and won't let you on their team. If you already know the people then you should be fine.

TennisND
12-05-2008, 06:05 AM
I have another question: Can I 3.0 play at 4.0 league? I am at top 3.5 now but computer rating is still 3.0. I have beat a few 4.0 guys.

jrod
12-05-2008, 06:06 AM
Yes, I believe you can always play up. However, if you are a 3.5 player playing at 3.0, you may get some protests and could eventually be bumped which would likely DQ you from playing 3.0.

TennisND
12-05-2008, 06:11 AM
The problem is I self rated 3.0 6 months ago when I returned to tennis after 5 years quitting. Things changed now and I don't want to play in 3.0 with a title sandbagger. I believe it's hard for me to get into 4.0 league without any approval. Am I correct?

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:12 AM
Yes a 3.0 can play in a 4.0 league. The only time an issue arises is in mixed or combo where they often have the 1.0 max difference between partners. A 3.0 can not play 8.0 mixed with a 4.5 or 5.0 partner most likely.

Yes, I believe you can always play up. However, if you are a 3.5 player playing at 3.0, you may get some protests and could eventually be bumped which would likely DQ you from playing 3.0.

Not true since he is computer rated. The rule is that computer rated players are immune from being DQ'd. Even if a 3.0 is playing up to 4.0. Now if he was a self-rated 3.0, then a grievance can be filed because USTA has a self-rate grievance guideline that says if there is evidence your skill is "at the top of the next level up that you are playing, or higher", then you can be DQ'd. Beating a 4.0 in a usta match is proof that you as a self-rated 3.0 are at or above the top of the next level.

jrod
12-05-2008, 06:14 AM
...Not true since he is computer rated. The rule is that computer rated players are immune from being DQ'd. Even if a 3.0 is playing up to 4.0. Now if he was a self-rated 3.0, then a grievance can be filed because USTA has a self-rate grievance guideline that says if there is evidence your skill is "at the top of the next level up that you are playing, or higher", then you can be DQ'd. Beating a 4.0 in a usta match is proof that you as a self-rated 3.0 are at or above the top of the next level.

I'm confused. If he gets bumped to 3.5 (by computer), are you saying he is still permitted to play at a 3.0 level event?

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:15 AM
The problem is I self rated 3.0 6 months ago when I returned to tennis after 5 years quitting. Things changed now and I don't want to play in 3.0 with a title sandbagger. I believe it's hard for me to get into 4.0 league without any approval. Am I correct?

Its hard because captains are often shallow and think that whats in the usta computer is your exact rating. If I were you I would at least try to appeal your rating (hopefully it is close enough to 3.5). Or you can contact USTA and ask them to grant you two levels up. (I'm not sure if they do this type of thing but I would bet they do since they would rather you play too far up than too far down).

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:16 AM
I'm confused. If he gets bumped to 3.5 (by computer), are you saying he is still permitted to play at a 3.0 level event?

How can he be bumped to 3.5? Ratings just came out and he is a 3.0. He will be a 3.0 in the computer until the end of 2009.

Topaz
12-05-2008, 06:17 AM
I'm confused. If he gets bumped to 3.5 (by computer), are you saying he is still permitted to play at a 3.0 level event?

No, he wants to play up, not down.

TennisND
12-05-2008, 06:19 AM
I just checked the rating as Raiden's advice and mine is S with the date of May 30 08. Will I keep this rating until end of 09?

jrod
12-05-2008, 06:21 AM
How can he be bumped to 3.5? Ratings just came out and he is a 3.0. He will be a 3.0 in the computer until the end of 2009.

My question was general, not temporally constrained to any calendar year. If he is bumped to 3.5 (whenever that occurs), is he still eligible to play 3.0? I thought he would not be. Correct?

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:25 AM
My question was general, not temporally constrained to any calendar year. If he is bumped to 3.5 (whenever that occurs), is he still eligible to play 3.0? I thought he would not be. Correct?

A 3.5 player definitely can not play 3.0. I don't think its physically possible to register as a player on a team if your rating is above the level of play.

jrod
12-05-2008, 06:26 AM
A 3.5 player definitely can not play 3.0. I don't think its physically possible to register as a player on a team if your rating is above the level of play.

ok, then we are in agreement.

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:29 AM
ok, then we are in agreement.

Right, but the post that you quoted when you were confused wasn't implying that he could ever be a computer rated 3.5 attempting to play at 3.0. I just want to emphasize that point as well.

jrod
12-05-2008, 06:42 AM
Right, but the post that you quoted when you were confused wasn't implying that he could ever be a computer rated 3.5 attempting to play at 3.0. I just want to emphasize that point as well.

Not sure how you thought I was implying that. It certainly wasn't what I meant.

raiden031
12-05-2008, 06:51 AM
Not sure how you thought I was implying that. It certainly wasn't what I meant.

Look at your original statement:

I'm confused. If he gets bumped to 3.5 (by computer), are you saying he is still permitted to play at a 3.0 level event?

You are asking if I am saying that in the above statement. So somehow my statement that you were quoting appeared like it was possible the guy would be a computer-rated 3.5 playing 3.0, but that is an impossible scenario given the info the poster supplied.

EDIT: Scrap all this. tennisnd posted later on saying he is self-rated at 3.0, not computer-rated. Being self-rated, he can be DQ'd from 3.0 (or even 3.5) if he plays those leagues at the same time as playing 4.0.

jrod
12-05-2008, 06:59 AM
EDIT: Scrap all this. tennisnd posted later on saying he is self-rated at 3.0, not computer-rated. Being self-rated, he can be DQ'd from 3.0 (or even 3.5) if he plays those leagues at the same time as playing 4.0.

Right, and my original post was being constructed prior to me seeing tennisnd bring into the conversation "computer rated". I only saw "self-rated" in his OP when I posted my initial response:

"Yes, I believe you can always play up. However, if you are a 3.5 player playing at 3.0, you may get some protests and could eventually be bumped which would likely DQ you from playing 3.0."

Talk about causality messing with context....LOL.

JSF1
12-05-2008, 07:03 AM
I have another question: Can I 3.0 play at 4.0 league? I am at top 3.5 now but computer rating is still 3.0. I have beat a few 4.0 guys.

You need to check your local league rules. Our local league recently changed the rule that a player can only play 0.5 rating higher. E.g., 3.0 could play 3.5, but not 4.0.

TennisND
12-05-2008, 07:03 AM
Raiden/jrod,
Thank you for your all advices. I have no ideas if the league I am playing is counted (even though all of my match shown up in the USTA link) but I will definitely play 3.5 next year. I may try the 3.0 tourney next month so that I can persuade those captains I can play at 3.5+. I believe that only play with better player makes you better.

jrod
12-05-2008, 07:16 AM
Raiden/jrod,
Thank you for your all advices. I have no ideas if the league I am playing is counted (even though all of my match shown up in the USTA link) but I will definitely play 3.5 next year. I may try the 3.0 tourney next month so that I can persuade those captains I can play at 3.5+. I believe that only play with better player makes you better.

Right...I believe some people encourage a mix of player levels where say 50% of the time you play folks at your level (i.e. you will win roughly 50% of the matches), 20% you play down (win > 80%) and 30% you play up (win < 20%). The problem is finding players who are willing to play down. Most players are more than willing to play up for exactly the reasons you state.

Hence the phrase: "It's lonely at the top". I guess this is why Federer practices with top juniors in a 2 on 1 configuration, and why he looks forward to playing the likes of Nadal...

raiden031
12-05-2008, 07:20 AM
Right...I believe some people encourage a mix of player levels where say 50% of the time you play folks at your level (i.e. you will win roughly 50% of the matches), 20% you play down (win > 80%) and 30% you play up (win < 20%). The problem is finding players who are willing to play down. Most players are more than willing to play up for exactly the reasons you state.

Hence the phrase: "It's lonely at the top". I guess this is why Federer practices with top juniors in a 2 on 1 configuration, and why he looks forward to playing the likes of Nadal...

I'm at a point where I will probably win 90% of 3.5 matches and lose 90% of 4.0 matches. But I'm only allowed to play 4.0, so that means I am going to lose 90% of ALL usta matches this year (Where I won like 95% of all matches last year). LOL

TennisND
12-05-2008, 07:24 AM
I'm at a point where I will probably win 90% of 3.5 matches and lose 90% of 4.0 matches. But I'm only allowed to play 4.0, so that means I am going to lose 90% of ALL usta matches this year (Where I won like 95% of all matches last year). LOL

Don't you think you can be 4.5 at the end of 09? The fact that you push yourself to play at higher level make you develop even faster. Whenever i play with 4.0 player, my target is getting them at least 1 set. So far, none of 4.0 I played with (about 6 of them) beat me in 2 sets.

goober
12-05-2008, 07:33 AM
Don't you think you can be 4.5 at the end of 09? The fact that you push yourself to play at higher level make you develop even faster. Whenever i play with 4.0 player, my target is getting them at least 1 set. So far, none of 4.0 I played with (about 6 of them) beat me in 2 sets.

Very few people can go from a low level 4.0 (losing 90% of matches) to a 4.5 computer rating in one year. The difference between a top level 4.0 and bottom level 4.0 is huge.

jrod
12-05-2008, 07:40 AM
I'm at a point where I will probably win 90% of 3.5 matches and lose 90% of 4.0 matches. But I'm only allowed to play 4.0, so that means I am going to lose 90% of ALL usta matches this year (Where I won like 95% of all matches last year). LOL

In my opinion, this is a desirable place to be since your game will improve by playing up more often.

What I've never understood is the group of club players who dislike this situation and prefer to play down to get thier win ratio up. I mean, it's not like their paycheck is going to be any smaller by playing up.

This basically equates to allowing ones ego to limit ones potential. Sounds like a familiar story.

goober
12-05-2008, 08:16 AM
What I've never understood is the group of club players who dislike this situation and prefer to play down to get thier win ratio up. I mean, it's not like their paycheck is going to be any smaller by playing up.

This basically equates to allowing ones ego to limit ones potential. Sounds like a familiar story.

Let me try to give you an explanation since I see this regularly and it is a common scenario.

A middle aged strong 4.0 gets bumped to 4.5. He is a really weak 4.5. He has job/family/children obligations and has less time to play these days. Maybe 1-2/week. No 4.5 team wants him or if they do take him it will only be as an occasional sub. Before he was won of the mainstays on his 4.0 team playing #1 doubles. So basically his USTA team experience is over. He can't play tourneys because they take up too much time. He doesn't have the time or energy to bring his game to a mid to high level 4.5 level in order to succeed in teamplay. Being middle aged his body is detoriating. So what are his options:

1) tank a bunch of matches and get rating back down to 4.0

2) Quit USTA, do something else.

This story or a similar version plays out every year.

raiden031
12-05-2008, 08:24 AM
In my opinion, this is a desirable place to be since your game will improve by playing up more often.

What I've never understood is the group of club players who dislike this situation and prefer to play down to get thier win ratio up. I mean, it's not like their paycheck is going to be any smaller by playing up.

This basically equates to allowing ones ego to limit ones potential. Sounds like a familiar story.

This is exactly where I want to be, so for me I agree 100% with you. But goober brings up a good point that applies to many others.

The main obstacle for me is not lacking desire/motivation/time to improve my game, but it is finding a team that is willing to accept me as a rookie. What happens if I can't find a team in my area? I skip an entire year of USTA play which would suck because I enjoy it so much.

BiGGieStuFF
12-05-2008, 08:34 AM
This is exactly where I want to be, so for me I agree 100% with you. But goober brings up a good point that applies to many others.

The main obstacle for me is not lacking desire/motivation/time to improve my game, but it is finding a team that is willing to accept me as a rookie. What happens if I can't find a team in my area? I skip an entire year of USTA play which would suck because I enjoy it so much.

I figure you shouldn't have a problem finding a team. Starting out as a sub on a good team shouldn't be hard with the right attitude. Email every captain. Surely someone has room for you. Your best chance would probably be with the team that came in last place the previous season.

I think it all starts out with a good email. Let them know you don't mind being a sub and that you're even willing to try out for the team and understand that does not guarantee you a spot on the team. I started out with no league experience or tournament experience and got on the 3.5 team from Houston that went to nationals. Sometimes being a practice partner for those guys can benefit you more than being on a team that has no winning culture.

raiden031
12-05-2008, 08:41 AM
I started out with no league experience or tournament experience and got on the 3.5 team from Houston that went to nationals. Sometimes being a practice partner for those guys can benefit you more than being on a team that has no winning culture.

I feel like there's a big difference between 3.X and 4.X tennis cultures. 3.5s seem to be alot more accepting of players, whereas 4.0s and above are tight-knit and not willing to play with just anyone. I feel like its going to take some work to get my name out there into the 4.0 community to where people actually want to play with me in practice, leagues, or whatever.

BiGGieStuFF
12-05-2008, 08:46 AM
I feel like there's a big difference between 3.X and 4.X tennis cultures. 3.5s seem to be alot more accepting of players, whereas 4.0s and above are tight-knit and not willing to play with just anyone. I feel like its going to take some work to get my name out there into the 4.0 community to where people actually want to play with me in practice, leagues, or whatever.

You really think that? I've been on a 4.0 team for a while even when I was a 3.5. Obviously this is my circumstance but there are a lot of 4.0s out there that have no business being a 4.0 but they are doomed by the system. here in Houston, 3.5s play most of the line 4's in 4.0 league. That's most likely where you'd be starting out. Last place teams are always looking to recruit new people because they need to find that possible stud. Teams that are ranked high tend to stick to their core and not add new pieces.

I'm a captain of a mixed team so I have an idea of how some captains think. Does your current 3.5 captain know any 4.0 captains that he could recommend you to? That's how I've been getting around league.

beernutz
12-05-2008, 08:48 AM
Let me try to give you an explanation since I see this regularly and it is a common scenario.

A middle aged strong 4.0 gets bumped to 4.5. He is a really weak 4.5. He has job/family/children obligations and has less time to play these days. Maybe 1-2/week. No 4.5 team wants him or if they do take him it will only be as an occasional sub. Before he was won of the mainstays on his 4.0 team playing #1 doubles. So basically his USTA team experience is over. He can't play tourneys because they take up too much time. He doesn't have the time or energy to bring his game to a mid to high level 4.5 level in order to succeed in teamplay. Being middle aged his body is detoriating. So what are his options:

1) tank a bunch of matches and get rating back down to 4.0

2) Quit USTA, do something else.

This story or a similar version plays out every year.

Not that I was ever a #1 player like your example, but something similar to this is happening to me. I have become a competitive loser at 3.5 USTA. I always give people pretty tough matches and I have never been bageled or breadsticked in four years of league play.

However, I am approaching 50 (ack!) and due to job and family commitments, if I get to play more than once a week, it has been an incredibly good tennis week. Consequently I just don't play/practice often enough to win at league very frequently.

As an example of me not being a total loser, I played my 4.0 younger brother over this past Thanksgiving holiday. We play the three times a year we get to see each other. This time I had only played twice in the month before we played each other. After losing 3 straight sets to him (including a bagel) the first day we played and then starting off the second day with a lost set, I bageled him and then won the third set in a tiebreak. I mention this to only to illustrate that I can play decently if I get some playing time.

So my choices are to play USTA knowing I'm probably going to drag a team down or to not play. I think I've decided that not playing is the lesser of two evils.

jrod
12-05-2008, 08:58 AM
Let me try to give you an explanation since I see this regularly and it is a common scenario.

A middle aged strong 4.0 gets bumped to 4.5. He is a really weak 4.5. He has job/family/children obligations and has less time to play these days. Maybe 1-2/week. No 4.5 team wants him or if they do take him it will only be as an occasional sub. Before he was won of the mainstays on his 4.0 team playing #1 doubles. So basically his USTA team experience is over. He can't play tourneys because they take up too much time. He doesn't have the time or energy to bring his game to a mid to high level 4.5 level in order to succeed in teamplay. Being middle aged his body is detoriating. So what are his options:

1) tank a bunch of matches and get rating back down to 4.0

2) Quit USTA, do something else.

This story or a similar version plays out every year.

I'm pretty much in the situation you've described above. I have quit USTA altogether, for reasons beyond what you describe. My exposure in USTA in the past 2 years is zero, so my rating is completely erroneous from their perspective.

I have at least 50 different players I can hit with, the majority of them being at my level. There are local leagues I can play in, but choose not to due to the time commitment and match schedule not jiving with mine. I don't have to travel, don't have to put up with the occassional AH who is more concerned about winning than playing a hard fought, fair game.

I really enjoy working on improving all aspects of my game. This is my primary focus. My level has steadily improved to the point where I win at the 4.5 level maybe 25% of the time. Thats a full point above where I left my self-rating in the USTA. The only time I have to pay someone to play me is if they are rated 5.0 or above (generally a club pro), which I do periodically. I have absolutely no complaints about my situation, but I fully appreciate your point.