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Scott_Redmond
12-08-2008, 09:39 AM
I have searched everywhere on the internet and have not found a reference to this situation.

It's a USTA doubles match.

The ball is hit to my partner who happens to be right in front of me. She has to stretch to make the shot and just misses the ball (or so she thought). I hear a very obvious 'tick' off the end of her racket and I am 100% convinced that she tapped it. Since the ball is now in front of me, I go ahead and make the shot successfully across the net and then waive the point off. I point out that we hit the ball twice and start to reset for the next point. My partner is not happy with me. She is 100% convinced she did not hit the ball. She thinks it is entirely her call or the opponents. She maintains that I do not have the obligation (or the right) to make the call. I am still convinced that she tapped it, but anything is possible and I may have made the wrong call.

As I read the Code, when applying the logic of line calls in cases where we disagree, the point goes to the opponent. However, in this case, on 99.5% of the shots like this, she would know whether she hit it or not. So, she is saying that I did not have the right to stop the point.

I called it as I saw it.

Your opinions? Thanks.

Dave M
12-08-2008, 09:49 AM
In the end we all can only "call em as we see 'em" so no i dont think you did anything wrong.I dont think your opponents can make that call actually, pretty sure it's only you or the player who makes contact.

KFwinds
12-08-2008, 10:08 AM
Your partner was wrong - in more than one way. First, you have every right to make the call since it happened on your side of the court (such as double-bounces, touching the net, etc.). Second, she was wrong in that your opponents can not make that call (although they can point it out if it's really obvious). Third, your partner was likely upset about it because she knew she had touched the ball and might have been trying to get away with it. Strike three...

Scott_Redmond
12-08-2008, 10:11 AM
Thanks for your reply.

In fairness to her, she is an unquestionably honest player that is convinced she didn't touch the ball.

Ronaldo
12-08-2008, 10:42 AM
Curious, always thought you lose the point if the ball in play touches the player or anything that the player is
wearing or carrying, except the racket. Volleyed a ball for a winner but the ball bounced off the back of my hand while gripping the racquet. My opponents thought we won the point, I gave the point to them. They still believed it was our point. Who's point was it? I didn't want it, I couldn't even find the strings, the frame, the throat, nothing but the grip.

raiden031
12-08-2008, 11:28 AM
She maintains that I do not have the obligation (or the right) to make the call.

I think it would be cheating for you to withhold a call that you know should be made. I understand your feelings because I once ****ed off my partner for overruling them on an out call that I felt was a bad one. But if your partner touches the ball then the call should be made by one of you. I don't think the code will say otherwise.

blakesq
12-08-2008, 11:37 AM
People can disagree 100% about something. However, since you and your partner disagreed on whether or not your partner tipped the ball, the point goes to your opponent. End of story. If your partner is not happy with you, tell her to get over it, all you can do is play your best, and call the balls on your side of the court as best you can. Its not as if your partner has never been wrong about a call!

I have searched everywhere on the internet and have not found a reference to this situation.

It's a USTA doubles match.

The ball is hit to my partner who happens to be right in front of me. She has to stretch to make the shot and just misses the ball (or so she thought). I hear a very obvious 'tick' off the end of her racket and I am 100% convinced that she tapped it. Since the ball is now in front of me, I go ahead and make the shot successfully across the net and then waive the point off. I point out that we hit the ball twice and start to reset for the next point. My partner is not happy with me. She is 100% convinced she did not hit the ball. She thinks it is entirely her call or the opponents. She maintains that I do not have the obligation (or the right) to make the call. I am still convinced that she tapped it, but anything is possible and I may have made the wrong call.

As I read the Code, when applying the logic of line calls in cases where we disagree, the point goes to the opponent. However, in this case, on 99.5% of the shots like this, she would know whether she hit it or not. So, she is saying that I did not have the right to stop the point.

I called it as I saw it.

Your opinions? Thanks.

raiden031
12-08-2008, 11:58 AM
This reminds me of a questionable thing that I ran into once...

One time I was lunging forward towards the net to hit a volley and I hit the volley and then continued forward and on the next shot my opponent hit the ball into the net. My body hit the net at some point during this time, and I originally thought that I hit the net after my opponent's shot was dead. Then after thinking about it I was unsure. Because I'm supposed to make the call on myself and can't say that I hit the net before the point was over, would I be obliged to give the opponent the point?

Ronaldo
12-08-2008, 12:03 PM
So she was no more aware of that tipped ball than Fernando Gonzales, eh?

AR15
12-08-2008, 12:18 PM
I had a similar encounter with a partner earlier this year. My partner was receiving serve. The first serve was back about 6 inches, and I yelled, "back." He returned the serve simultaneously to my call, and made a good return. He jumped in my poop about it not being my responsibility to make the call. He said he can return long serves if he wants to.

JavierLW
12-08-2008, 02:16 PM
I have searched everywhere on the internet and have not found a reference to this situation.

It's a USTA doubles match.

The ball is hit to my partner who happens to be right in front of me. She has to stretch to make the shot and just misses the ball (or so she thought). I hear a very obvious 'tick' off the end of her racket and I am 100% convinced that she tapped it. Since the ball is now in front of me, I go ahead and make the shot successfully across the net and then waive the point off. I point out that we hit the ball twice and start to reset for the next point. My partner is not happy with me. She is 100% convinced she did not hit the ball. She thinks it is entirely her call or the opponents. She maintains that I do not have the obligation (or the right) to make the call. I am still convinced that she tapped it, but anything is possible and I may have made the wrong call.

As I read the Code, when applying the logic of line calls in cases where we disagree, the point goes to the opponent. However, in this case, on 99.5% of the shots like this, she would know whether she hit it or not. So, she is saying that I did not have the right to stop the point.

I called it as I saw it.

Your opinions? Thanks.

You did the right thing, it would be cheating not to call it.

Sometimes you get partners who get upset about things like this, I know I do, and I hate it. I try not to play with partners like that after it happens.

TonyB
12-08-2008, 02:41 PM
You are clearly within your rights to make the call. Either player can call a touch, let, double bounce, or out ball at any time on their side of the court.

However, my personal action would have been to just continue playing the ball as if it were NOT touched and allow my partner to make the call properly. If she's as trustworthy as you say she is, then she would make the call if she truly touched it, right? Just because you thought you heard a noise doesn't necessarily mean that it was your partner touching the ball. Could have been noise on other courts, shoes shuffling, your opponents making a noise, etc. That's why I would let your partner make the call, because they would have felt the touch rather than just hearing a noise from somewhere.

I completely disagree that it would be "cheating" if you didn't call it. You don't KNOW what that noise was. You didn't FEEL your partner's racquet touch the ball. You heard a noise and assumed it was a touch, but you can't be sure. Your partner was in a better position to make that call, so let her do it.

Either way, you and your partner must agree to stand by ANY call that you make as a team. You should not overrule your partner, and vice versa.

sureshs
12-08-2008, 02:47 PM
You are clearly within your rights to make the call. Either player can call a touch, let, double bounce, or out ball at any time on their side of the court.

However, my personal action would have been to just continue playing the ball as if it were NOT touched and allow my partner to make the call properly. If she's as trustworthy as you say she is, then she would make the call if she truly touched it, right? Just because you thought you heard a noise doesn't necessarily mean that it was your partner touching the ball. Could have been noise on other courts, shoes shuffling, your opponents making a noise, etc. That's why I would let your partner make the call, because they would have felt the touch rather than just hearing a noise from somewhere.

I completely disagree that it would be "cheating" if you didn't call it. You don't KNOW what that noise was. You didn't FEEL your partner's racquet touch the ball. You heard a noise and assumed it was a touch, but you can't be sure. Your partner was in a better position to make that call, so let her do it.

Sometimes there are cases when the person who touched the ball does not feel it but someone else can see the deflection.

kylebarendrick
12-08-2008, 03:29 PM
Either way, you and your partner must agree to stand by ANY call that you make as a team. You should not overrule your partner, and vice versa.

Wrong - and line calls are the best example. If your partner calls a ball "out" and you clearly see it in, then you owe it to your opponents to overrule your partner. It is awfully frustrating to hit a shot that you know is good only to receive an "out" call from the other side. It is far worse, though, when their partner adds an "oh yeah it was out". The first player may have made a mistake. The 2nd, with time to think about it, did nothing but lie. Don't be that guy.

jrod
12-08-2008, 03:41 PM
Your partner sounds somewhat insensitive for a woman...I'd insist on a DNA test. If she declines, get a new partner.

Seriously, you didn't do anything wrong. I believe there is an argument to be made that you should have played the point out and after the point ended discussed it with your partner before conceding the point (if you lost the point, no need to discuss it). Hopefully your call didn't damage your ability to play as a team.

Geezer Guy
12-08-2008, 03:44 PM
You are clearly within your rights to make the call. Either player can call a touch, let, double bounce, or out ball at any time on their side of the court.

However, my personal action would have been to just continue playing the ball as if it were NOT touched and allow my partner to make the call properly. If she's as trustworthy as you say she is, then she would make the call if she truly touched it, right? Just because you thought you heard a noise doesn't necessarily mean that it was your partner touching the ball. Could have been noise on other courts, shoes shuffling, your opponents making a noise, etc. That's why I would let your partner make the call, because they would have felt the touch rather than just hearing a noise from somewhere.

I completely disagree that it would be "cheating" if you didn't call it. You don't KNOW what that noise was. You didn't FEEL your partner's racquet touch the ball. You heard a noise and assumed it was a touch, but you can't be sure. Your partner was in a better position to make that call, so let her do it.

Either way, you and your partner must agree to stand by ANY call that you make as a team. You should not overrule your partner, and vice versa.

Good point. You had me convinced until that last paragraph. Both partners must be committed to making the RIGHT call, and if one partner overrules the other, so be it. I have overruled my partner several times, and vice versa. The important thing is getting it right - not backing up a bad call just to protect someone's ego or win a point.

To the original poster, I think you did the right thing. However, if you think your partner is being completely honest about not touching the ball - then all you can do is apologize to her. My guess is that if she thinks you were just trying to do the right thing and made a mistake, then it won't be that big a deal.

TonyB
12-08-2008, 03:47 PM
Wrong - and line calls are the best example. If your partner calls a ball "out" and you clearly see it in, then you owe it to your opponents to overrule your partner.



Have you ever even PLAYED doubles? You do not, I repeat, DO NOT, publicly overrule your partner. Never. Ever.

If you disagree with your partner, you privately confer with them and discuss it. If he/she agrees with your call, you either call a let or give your opponents the point, depending on the circumstances. But it should be your PARTNER (that is, the person who made the original call) that makes the official change in the call. Not you. Ever.

THAT is doubles etiquette.

I would never want to be your partner, always living in fear of you "correcting" my calls in front of my opponents. I need a supportive partner. If I make a bad call, you tell ME about it, not our opponents. And we decide together, as a TEAM, how to handle the correction.

TonyB
12-08-2008, 03:47 PM
Good point. You had me convinced until that last paragraph. Both partners must be committed to making the RIGHT call, and if one partner overrules the other, so be it. I have overruled my partner several times, and vice versa. The important thing is getting it right - not backing up a bad call just to protect someone's ego or win a point.



See my post, above.

Geezer Guy
12-08-2008, 04:03 PM
See my post, above.

I agree with you about the correct etiquete of overrulling a partner.

I don't agree with never overruling a partner - but maybe I was misunderstanding your point.

0range
12-08-2008, 04:26 PM
Have you ever even PLAYED doubles? You do not, I repeat, DO NOT, publicly overrule your partner. Never. Ever.

If you disagree with your partner, you privately confer with them and discuss it. If he/she agrees with your call, you either call a let or give your opponents the point, depending on the circumstances. But it should be your PARTNER (that is, the person who made the original call) that makes the official change in the call. Not you. Ever.

THAT is doubles etiquette.

I would never want to be your partner, always living in fear of you "correcting" my calls in front of my opponents. I need a supportive partner. If I make a bad call, you tell ME about it, not our opponents. And we decide together, as a TEAM, how to handle the correction.

I agree with this.

Remember there could be a situation where one partner "clearly" sees the ball as in and the other "clearly" sees the ball as out. I trust my partner to be honest; if he makes the call first especially when he's in the position to see the ball better I will not contradict him (and I would like the same for me).

0range
12-08-2008, 04:39 PM
I had a similar encounter with a partner earlier this year. My partner was receiving serve. The first serve was back about 6 inches, and I yelled, "back." He returned the serve simultaneously to my call, and made a good return. He jumped in my poop about it not being my responsibility to make the call. He said he can return long serves if he wants to.

Actually, your partner _might_ be right. According to the rule book the returner can choose to play the 1st serve even if it's long. I was surprised about this when I found that out a few weeks back.

Although the rule says the _server_ cannot call his own first serve out (it's up to the returner to call it), it says nothing about the returner's partner and the proper etiquette.

0range
12-08-2008, 04:42 PM
^^^ found them:

25. Service calls in doubles. In doubles the receiver’s partner should call the service line, and the receiver should call the sideline and the center service line. Nonetheless, either partner may call a ball that either clearly sees.

26. Service calls by serving team. Neither the server nor server’s partner shall make a fault call on the first service even if they think it is out because the receiver may be giving the server the benefit of the doubt. There is one exception. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call. The server and the server’s partner shall call out any second serve that either clearly sees out.

28. Obvious faults. A player shall not put into play or hit over the net an obvious fault. To do so constitutes rudeness and may even be a form of gamesmanship. On the other hand, if a player does not call a serve a fault and gives the opponent the benefit of a close call, the server is not entitled to replay the point.

TonyB
12-08-2008, 04:51 PM
I agree with you about the correct etiquete of overrulling a partner.

I don't agree with never overruling a partner - but maybe I was misunderstanding your point.

You shouldn't "overrule" your partner. You should bring any missed call to his/her attention and let THEM overrule themselves as the case may be.

You should act as a team, regardless of the decision. If your partner is a liar and that stubborn to purposely make a bad call and stick with it, then maybe you just need a different partner.

But overruling them on the court (that is, YOU taking your opponent's side and indicating to your partner that YOU are more important and/or a better line-caller than he is) is a no-no.

kylebarendrick
12-08-2008, 07:28 PM
Sorry, I still disagree - and I am referring to the situation where you see the ball clearly in. I absolutely agree that if my partner calls a ball out and I'm not sure, then I will support my partner's call. But if I clearly see it in and have an equal or better view than my partner, then I have to say so. Yes, my preference is to make the call with my partner first, but that isn't always possible. Giving the other team the benefit of the doubt is a key part of the Code. If I knowingly take a point from my opponents then I am cheating. I always consider my partner to be making their best effort to call correctly, so it isn't a question of calling them a liar.

It isn't taking your opponent's side - it is making the right call in accordance with the code.

JHBKLYN
12-08-2008, 09:30 PM
Always make the right call for there is no honor among thieves.

RestockingTues
12-08-2008, 09:45 PM
If it's a question of moral character, we definitely need to get randomname to help us out!

smoothtennis
12-09-2008, 10:41 AM
Thanks for your reply.

In fairness to her, she is an unquestionably honest player that is convinced she didn't touch the ball.

This is no different than you calling a serve she is receiving out. Happens all the time and in that case, to her benefit - so nobody complains.

Scott_Redmond
12-12-2008, 09:52 AM
Thanks to everyone for their replies. If I were to summarize what I've read, most people say that accuracy and honesty are the most important principle while doing so in a way that is respectful of your partner.

One person emphatically says that one should never overrule their partner on the court and that difference of opinions should be handled quietly and after the fact.

My reading of 'The Code' seems to more strongly support the first conclusion, recognizing that events and calls are happening in real-time and one is trying to always make the most accurate call while worrying about their partner's feeling all in the space of about 1/5th of a second.

woodrow1029
12-12-2008, 09:56 AM
Sorry, I still disagree - and I am referring to the situation where you see the ball clearly in. I absolutely agree that if my partner calls a ball out and I'm not sure, then I will support my partner's call. But if I clearly see it in and have an equal or better view than my partner, then I have to say so. Yes, my preference is to make the call with my partner first, but that isn't always possible. Giving the other team the benefit of the doubt is a key part of the Code. If I knowingly take a point from my opponents then I am cheating. I always consider my partner to be making their best effort to call correctly, so it isn't a question of calling them a liar.

It isn't taking your opponent's side - it is making the right call in accordance with the code.
ding ding ding.. This is the correct answer!

Joeyg
12-12-2008, 11:38 AM
Sorry Tonyb, you are wrong. You owe it to the game to make the correct call. I don't care how ****ed off your partner gets. You can be nice about it, but you have the responsibility to make the correct call at all times. Anythjing else would be cheating!

bleach
12-12-2008, 11:45 AM
Actually, your partner _might_ be right. According to the rule book the returner can choose to play the 1st serve even if it's long. I was surprised about this when I found that out a few weeks back.

Although the rule says the _server_ cannot call his own first serve out (it's up to the returner to call it), it says nothing about the returner's partner and the proper etiquette.

Not quite, if the serve is out(and you know it's out) but still play it, that is just as much cheating as calling a good serve out. But if your not sure enough to make a call then you play it! I had an opponent that would return every long (out) serve and try to hit a winner, if he missed he would call my serve out.

ttbrowne
12-29-2008, 06:35 AM
Have you ever even PLAYED doubles? You do not, I repeat, DO NOT, publicly overrule your partner. Never. Ever.

If you disagree with your partner, you privately confer with them and discuss it. If he/she agrees with your call, you either call a let or give your opponents the point, depending on the circumstances. But it should be your PARTNER (that is, the person who made the original call) that makes the official change in the call. Not you. Ever.

THAT is doubles etiquette.

I would never want to be your partner, always living in fear of you "correcting" my calls in front of my opponents. I need a supportive partner. If I make a bad call, you tell ME about it, not our opponents. And we decide together, as a TEAM, how to handle the correction.

Just curious but how would this play out on this particular play?

You would play the point out, then stop and confer?
If so and your opponents won the point, would you give it to them?
If so and you won the point, what then?
In this case. your partner would be so upset by winning the point then giving it away, it wouldn't matter.

raiden031
12-29-2008, 07:11 AM
Not quite, if the serve is out(and you know it's out) but still play it, that is just as much cheating as calling a good serve out. But if your not sure enough to make a call then you play it! I had an opponent that would return every long (out) serve and try to hit a winner, if he missed he would call my serve out.

Thats why you are supposed to call out immediately. If someone makes delayed calls repeatedly then that is cheating.

Ronaldo
12-29-2008, 08:00 AM
Thats why you are supposed to call out immediately. If someone makes delayed calls repeatedly then that is cheating.

If you are on clay and check every close call, is that cheating? Opponents expect an immediate call but checking the mark IMHO takes precedent. And that is peceived to be cheating.

raiden031
12-29-2008, 08:23 AM
If you are on clay and check every close call, is that cheating? Opponents expect an immediate call but checking the mark IMHO takes precedent. And that is peceived to be cheating.

That is verifying a call. You still have to make a call and if there is question you check the mark. You don't play a ball and then after the point is over you check the mark and say it was out.