The Last Post: How to Turn Pro

[LuckyR]

Am reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. I used to think all of the posts from wide eyed youngsters seeking advice on what to do to become a touring Pro were pretty silly, in a goofy, innocent sort of way.

Well I guess there is a fair amount of research to say that there is in fact a formula to becoming World Class at just about any endeavor. And the best thing is, it doesn't require a large amount of innate talent.

Here it is: practice 10,000 hours at the activity, in this case tennis, before the youngest age folks usually turn Pro.

See you at the Open! I'll be lookin' for ya!

[Tennisguy777]

Well I just started practicing 3hrs a day 2 days ago. So I will do this 5 x a week = 15 hrs a week and 60 hrs of tennis a month for me. According to your formula I'll turn pro 15 years from now!

[SirBlend12]

Right there is the catch. why do most pros go pro at 18/19 when they play from childhood? It works out quite well in the end.:)

[Mountain Ghost]

Just saw him on Charlie Rose and I liked his point of view. The catch . . . for something as precision-based as tennis, they have to be 10,000 hours of focused and “intelligent” practice, so that pretty much leaves out anyone without a coach, along with “some” of America’s youth.

MG

[m27]

this formula is bogus; it disregards talent, learning speed, etc. didnt sam querrey turn pro 3 years after deciding to seriously focus on tennis? AFAIK, he started playing serious tennis at 16 and went pro at 19.

anyway, the whole notion of "10,000 hours" is absurd.

[10s talk]

choose Agassi and Graf as your parents ;-)

[150mph_]

10,000 hours is 413 days of practice...
3 hours a day, everyday thats 3300 days of practice
and thats 9 years of practicing everyday for 3 hours a day...
so if a person starts a 5, and give up their childhood, they will turn pro @ a tender age of 14 (which is when nadal turned pro)

^ interesting if you do the math out...

by the way... in terms of intelligent coaching... most people having their father/mother as their coach when they are really young unless they are either super rich or super involved
so it technically does not leave any american youth out unless their parents dont give a sh!t ... but if the parents let their kids start @ 5 y/o then obviously they do give a sh!t

[RestockingTues]

My parents don't give a **** :[ How can I make them?

Well, I guess I'm nowhere close to turning pro :? OR playing college tennis.

[Mick]

Am reading Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. I used to think all of the posts from wide eyed youngsters seeking advice on what to do to become a touring Pro were pretty silly, in a goofy, innocent sort of way.

Well I guess there is a fair amount of research to say that there is in fact a formula to becoming World Class at just about any endeavor. And the best thing is, it doesn't require a large amount of innate talent.

Here it is: practice 10,000 hours at the activity

Pretty soon, I will become a world class web surfer :)

[Rafael_Nadal_6257]

Pretty soon, I will become a world class web surfer :)

Haha same here :)

[CoachingMastery]

It is not specifically how "long" you practice or play: it is WHAT you are practicing during that period of practice that will help determine your potential for turning pro.

Players who practice poor technique for 10,000 hours will only get good at being bad.

Having worked with a number of professionals, some as high as top 20 in the world, I can assure you that not one of them approached tennis in the light that the OP suggested...meaning, not one spent countless hours hitting balls with little or no purpose.

Yes, all did hit for countless hours. But, for the most part, each 'hit' had purpose.

You can look at the millions of adults who have played more than 10,000 hours, and many, if not most, are seldom better than 3.0 or 3.5 levels. Thus, the hours don't make the difference.

I've had students begin late, hit far less and make it to a level that they could explore the professional possibility. However, most don't make it not because of the hours spent or even the quality of the instruction they seek; most don't make it because the drive and desire were not strong enough to make the "sacrifice" not feel like work. For those who sincerely want to reach professional levels in ANYTHING, the key is to want it so bad that the player doesn't ever look at the pursuit as a sacrifice: each moment of effort is a moment closer to the goal.

And don't diss the player who "gives up their life" for a chance to become a pro: Those who have such aspirations have a distinct goal, a challenge, and a discipline that those who might criticize such a life often have none of the above. Such a goal often teaches a student about themselves, about life, and about priorities. Where some kids would rather party or play video games or talk or text, those who better themselves through such goals as becoming world-class in anything...are they really worse off than those who don't?

I have seldom seen a person fail at life when they initially create such desire, drive, discipline, dedication, and desire in something. Even if they don't reach their goal, they learn to work hard through challenging aspects of the activity, sport, or hobby.

It is often the person who criticizes the hard-working player who has already quit things that were perhaps at one time important...but, when the going got tough, only the tough carried on; those who were weak, jumped ship.

You would be amazed to know that so many young kids and even a few older ones could make it to pros...or, at the very least, play good college ball somewhere. But, it is the exception, rather than the rule, that the student not be swayed by those who might criticize or say that failure is only a matter of time.

No, success is only a matter of time for those who sincerely seek.

[LuckyR]

Well I just started practicing 3hrs a day 2 days ago. So I will do this 5 x a week = 15 hrs a week and 60 hrs of tennis a month for me. According to your formula I'll turn pro 15 years from now!


Well unless you are 2-3 years old, you will never turn Pro with your workout regimen.

[LuckyR]

Pretty soon, I will become a world class web surfer :)

Yes you will, as there is no maximum age to become a World Class web surfer.

[LuckyR]

this formula is bogus; it disregards talent, learning speed, etc. didnt sam querrey turn pro 3 years after deciding to seriously focus on tennis? AFAIK, he started playing serious tennis at 16 and went pro at 19.

anyway, the whole notion of "10,000 hours" is absurd.

Actually, according to the research cited in the book, the researchers looked for differences in learning speed, "talent" etc. (after all they are professional researchers) and the 10,000 number stood up consistantly.

[LuckyR]

It is not specifically how "long" you practice or play: it is WHAT you are practicing during that period of practice that will help determine your potential for turning pro.

Players who practice poor technique for 10,000 hours will only get good at being bad.

Having worked with a number of professionals, some as high as top 20 in the world, I can assure you that not one of them approached tennis in the light that the OP suggested...meaning, not one spent countless hours hitting balls with little or no purpose.

Yes, all did hit for countless hours. But, for the most part, each 'hit' had purpose.

You can look at the millions of adults who have played more than 10,000 hours, and many, if not most, are seldom better than 3.0 or 3.5 levels. Thus, the hours don't make the difference.

I've had students begin late, hit far less and make it to a level that they could explore the professional possibility. However, most don't make it not because of the hours spent or even the quality of the instruction they seek; most don't make it because the drive and desire were not strong enough to make the "sacrifice" not feel like work. For those who sincerely want to reach professional levels in ANYTHING, the key is to want it so bad that the player doesn't ever look at the pursuit as a sacrifice: each moment of effort is a moment closer to the goal.

And don't diss the player who "gives up their life" for a chance to become a pro: Those who have such aspirations have a distinct goal, a challenge, and a discipline that those who might criticize such a life often have none of the above. Such a goal often teaches a student about themselves, about life, and about priorities. Where some kids would rather party or play video games or talk or text, those who better themselves through such goals as becoming world-class in anything...are they really worse off than those who don't?

I have seldom seen a person fail at life when they initially create such desire, drive, discipline, dedication, and desire in something. Even if they don't reach their goal, they learn to work hard through challenging aspects of the activity, sport, or hobby.

It is often the person who criticizes the hard-working player who has already quit things that were perhaps at one time important...but, when the going got tough, only the tough carried on; those who were weak, jumped ship.

You would be amazed to know that so many young kids and even a few older ones could make it to pros...or, at the very least, play good college ball somewhere. But, it is the exception, rather than the rule, that the student not be swayed by those who might criticize or say that failure is only a matter of time.

No, success is only a matter of time for those who sincerely seek.


As usual, I completely agree that your (significant) observations are accurate. However, my guess is they are essentially a Strawman argument in the sense that the person you are imagining: a youngster who practices 10,000 hours diligently before the age of 16-18 yet has so little guidance that they are practicing the completely wrong technique in a world with tons of tennis pros, probably doesn't exist. That person would bail out of tennis long before 10,000 hours because of a poor showing for the first 3,000 or even 5,000 hours of practice.

We all know middle aged duffers who practice "countless" hours will never make it to the Pro ranks regardless of their instruction, it was not the intention of my post to dispute that obvious fact.

Your comment on desire is true, of course. And it would be an extreme rarity for a youngster to make it to 10,000 hours of practice and not self select, to be that individual who also has desire. The folks you cite never made it to 10,000 hours.

As to your last sentance, I agree completely, that was the essential message of my post and Gladwell's book.

[CoachingMastery]

As usual, I completely agree that your (significant) observations are accurate. However, my guess is they are essentially a Strawman argument in the sense that the person you are imagining: a youngster who practices 10,000 hours diligently before the age of 16-18 yet has so little guidance that they are practicing the completely wrong technique in a world with tons of tennis pros, probably doesn't exist. That person would bail out of tennis long before 10,000 hours because of a poor showing for the first 3,000 or even 5,000 hours of practice.

We all know middle aged duffers who practice "countless" hours will never make it to the Pro ranks regardless of their instruction, it was not the intention of my post to dispute that obvious fact.

Your comment on desire is true, of course. And it would be an extreme rarity for a youngster to make it to 10,000 hours of practice and not self select, to be that individual who also has desire. The folks you cite never made it to 10,000 hours.

As to your last sentance, I agree completely, that was the essential message of my post and Gladwell's book.

I agree with your points. The essence of my post is that while the probablity of making it to the highest levels is very, very rare, the possibility exists for far more people than most people are led to believe or believe themselves.

My point I have seen within my profession is clear: those who have SINCERE desire, will have a chance. Those with sincere desire will seek the best advice possible, seek the opportunities to practice, play and learn, will have an intense, undeniable desire to make every moment possible contribute to their goal.

Your right...most can't make it past the first few thousand hours, obviously. Many may have "believed" that they wanted the goal...but, after frustrations, challenges, obsticals, and probably hearing from people that 'they just won't make it'...finally caved into a different belief: one that convinces them that they WON'T make it.

Others still will find the journey more difficult than expected. Many may have believed that it would get easier...when, in reality, it gets harder over time. Many just don't want to give up things easier: television, videos, phones, friends, or mindless diversions. Why do most people fail to lose the weight they want? Why do most people never complete a book that they have always wanted to write? Why do most people never master the piano, play guitar in a band, shoot a sub-par round of golf?

The answer is the same: these goals were not important enough, nor sincere enough for those who wanted them to do ALL that they could to achieve them.

Certainly, there are many who simple are not capable of reaching such high aspirations. Obviously, a blind person could not become a world-class tennis player. Goals must match not only our sincere desire, but our sincere potential.

The problem I have seen among the 3500 players I've taught is that most all, except for less than ten, had all the tools to become top level players. And, most of my students reached highly skilled levels of play. The exceptions are those who quit, those who decided to follow their own percieved pathways to learn, (seldom correct ways), or those who just didn't have enough desire to perfect that which they were learning.

Working with about a thousand juniors, especially those who I coached for four or more years, (high school coaching as well as teaching at clubs), nearly all reached a general level of 4.5 or above, very few reaching the typical lower levels of 3.5 or below that we often see adults who didn't have proper training, muddle within for their tennis playing lives. I've seen the same thing with adults who had never played and those who dedicated themselves to learning for a similar period of time. Even players in their 50's and 60's reaching very high levels within their age limitations and other handicapping factors.

This experience (over 35 years) has proven to me without a doubt that most players can achieve high skill levels...obviously the prerequisite to making the progressive move to high-performance levels associated with making to the college and professional levels.

Obviously, there are other factors that include having the opportunity to compete with like players, playing tournaments, and clearly making sure the methods learned are the best suited for the individual.

And, there are many other extrensic factors that one must consider, too.

However, I believe in anyone who believes sincerely in themselves.

[TennisLover17]

I thought the original thing was

"In order to go pro, you have to hit 50,000 balls"

This one is even more absurd than the 10000 hours

[LuckyR]

I agree with your points. The essence of my post is that while the probablity of making it to the highest levels is very, very rare, the possibility exists for far more people than most people are led to believe or believe themselves.

My point I have seen within my profession is clear: those who have SINCERE desire, will have a chance. Those with sincere desire will seek the best advice possible, seek the opportunities to practice, play and learn, will have an intense, undeniable desire to make every moment possible contribute to their goal.

Your right...most can't make it past the first few thousand hours, obviously. Many may have "believed" that they wanted the goal...but, after frustrations, challenges, obsticals, and probably hearing from people that 'they just won't make it'...finally caved into a different belief: one that convinces them that they WON'T make it.

Others still will find the journey more difficult than expected. Many may have believed that it would get easier...when, in reality, it gets harder over time. Many just don't want to give up things easier: television, videos, phones, friends, or mindless diversions. Why do most people fail to lose the weight they want? Why do most people never complete a book that they have always wanted to write? Why do most people never master the piano, play guitar in a band, shoot a sub-par round of golf?

The answer is the same: these goals were not important enough, nor sincere enough for those who wanted them to do ALL that they could to achieve them.

Certainly, there are many who simple are not capable of reaching such high aspirations. Obviously, a blind person could not become a world-class tennis player. Goals must match not only our sincere desire, but our sincere potential.

The problem I have seen among the 3500 players I've taught is that most all, except for less than ten, had all the tools to become top level players. And, most of my students reached highly skilled levels of play. The exceptions are those who quit, those who decided to follow their own percieved pathways to learn, (seldom correct ways), or those who just didn't have enough desire to perfect that which they were learning.

Working with about a thousand juniors, especially those who I coached for four or more years, (high school coaching as well as teaching at clubs), nearly all reached a general level of 4.5 or above, very few reaching the typical lower levels of 3.5 or below that we often see adults who didn't have proper training, muddle within for their tennis playing lives. I've seen the same thing with adults who had never played and those who dedicated themselves to learning for a similar period of time. Even players in their 50's and 60's reaching very high levels within their age limitations and other handicapping factors.

This experience (over 35 years) has proven to me without a doubt that most players can achieve high skill levels...obviously the prerequisite to making the progressive move to high-performance levels associated with making to the college and professional levels.

Obviously, there are other factors that include having the opportunity to compete with like players, playing tournaments, and clearly making sure the methods learned are the best suited for the individual.

And, there are many other extrensic factors that one must consider, too.

However, I believe in anyone who believes sincerely in themselves.


Gladwell researched success and essentially came up with what you learned in 35 years of practice. I would sincerely recommend the book to you, not so much because it will radically change your opinion (since your opinion probably is already close to his findings). But it is always fun to see in print, what you already know from personal experience. In addition I'll bet there will be a suprise or two, even for you (I am specifically refering to Chapter 1).

[CoachingMastery]

Gladwell researched success and essentially came up with what you learned in 35 years of practice. I would sincerely recommend the book to you, not so much because it will radically change your opinion (since your opinion probably is already close to his findings). But it is always fun to see in print, what you already know from personal experience. In addition I'll bet there will be a suprise or two, even for you (I am specifically refering to Chapter 1).

Thanks for the recommend! I'm always interested in information that supports or refutes anything that I've learned! I'll look for the book.