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View Full Version : Ntrp, Ntrp, Ntrp!


Charlzz
12-28-2008, 07:31 AM
As in Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

Here's an idea, though not an easy one. The USTA (or someone) ought to start collecting video footage of players at various levels and indicate why they are at that level. For example, you might see someone and say "their strokes are awful, how can they possibly be x.x?" or "their strokes look great, how can they possible be x.x?".

Sometimes you can tell a lot by the way a person hits mechanically. With MattyG, it would help to see how often he hits the net. The strokes look like 4.0, but if he misses every third shot or can't cover wide shots, then that would lower his rating. On the other hand, if he serves and returns well, maybe that bumps it up. Many things can factor in.

Assessing people's levels through videos is useful, even if not wholly accurate. Without such videos, people might otherwise classify themselves as 5.0 (I can hit a lob, I can hit several shots in a row and place it). The NTRP system fails to mention pace of shot as a criteria or how consistent a player should be, or how often they should hit a bad looking shot which might let people more accurately assess themselves.

Point is, if there were videos and commentaries, you could refer someone to them and they could get some sense of their rating.

drakulie
12-28-2008, 07:36 AM
This is a very good idea.

Only downfall, is we won't have anything to argue about. :)

Charlzz
12-28-2008, 08:10 AM
This is a very good idea.

Only downfall, is we won't have anything to argue about. :)

Oh I don't know about that. If someone posts their videos, we can still misjudge it by a point or so either direction!

DJG
12-28-2008, 08:39 AM
Only downfall, is we won't have anything to argue about. :)

There will still be midsize racquets... and lesser-skilled players... and neither Nadal or Federer has retired yet...

Morrowreze
12-28-2008, 11:40 AM
We could try it here for a little fun if someone can round up some good videos.

OhDear
12-28-2008, 05:47 PM
I personally think we should have a TWRP. Our own little standard for rating people on the forum.

jasoncho92
12-29-2008, 02:11 AM
I personally think we should have a TWRP. Our own little standard for rating people on the forum.
We already do considering how everyone rates each person 1.5 lower than they actually are. The TT rating system ranges from -.5 to 5.5.

drakulie
12-29-2008, 05:13 AM
There will still be midsize racquets... and lesser-skilled players... and neither Nadal or Federer has retired yet...

You are correct. Those should keep me entertained for 2009. :)

Matty G
12-29-2008, 05:21 AM
As in Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!

Here's an idea, though not an easy one. The USTA (or someone) ought to start collecting video footage of players at various levels and indicate why they are at that level. For example, you might see someone and say "their strokes are awful, how can they possibly be x.x?" or "their strokes look great, how can they possible be x.x?".

Sometimes you can tell a lot by the way a person hits mechanically. With MattyG, it would help to see how often he hits the net. The strokes look like 4.0, but if he misses every third shot or can't cover wide shots, then that would lower his rating. On the other hand, if he serves and returns well, maybe that bumps it up. Many things can factor in.

Assessing people's levels through videos is useful, even if not wholly accurate. Without such videos, people might otherwise classify themselves as 5.0 (I can hit a lob, I can hit several shots in a row and place it). The NTRP system fails to mention pace of shot as a criteria or how consistent a player should be, or how often they should hit a bad looking shot which might let people more accurately assess themselves.

Point is, if there were videos and commentaries, you could refer someone to them and they could get some sense of their rating.

Sounds like a good idea. I will try get a vid from behind me and you can do the comentry on it

Charlzz
12-29-2008, 05:29 AM
Sounds like a good idea. I will try get a vid from behind me and you can do the comentry on it

Well, the idea would be that you'd actually be properly rated (which I gather comes from playing some matches?) and then someone who has rated you can explain why that rating came about, referring to matches played as well as hitting style.

You can put up a video, and I'm sure the forums will take their best shot guessing your ratings, but it's still not the "official" way to be rated.

If you do get video, try to get record a few games with someone comparable to you (or a lot steadier than you). They say it's better to judge someone in game situation.

iamke55
12-29-2008, 10:11 AM
People will still watch videos of a much better player than themselves and say "I think I could beat this guy easily" so it wouldn't do much other than make a few more laughs here.

raiden031
12-29-2008, 02:52 PM
I think this is something that Will Hamilton (Fuzzy Yellow Balls guy) should do. Don't know if he is that interested in ratings or just tennis fundamentals in general, but he seems to explain things well enough to do this and has a good video crew.

He should display a clip of a usta match of each level (or simply use true usta-rated guys from each level), and explain what is going on with these players during the match and what makes their level.

LeeD
12-29-2008, 02:57 PM
Videos will reveal some aspects, but certainly not pure physical toughness, speed, mental toughness, and desire.
We all can achieve strokes to break into 4.5 levels, but the above is what sets the higher levels apart from us.
And we can edit videos to show our best (or worst) strokes, totally askewing the "rating system".
Video is one tool for sure, but must be in addition to actual sight, record, history, and a few other factors which end up relegating videos to maybe 20 % of the equation.

Matty G
12-30-2008, 07:44 AM
Well, the idea would be that you'd actually be properly rated (which I gather comes from playing some matches?) and then someone who has rated you can explain why that rating came about, referring to matches played as well as hitting style.

You can put up a video, and I'm sure the forums will take their best shot guessing your ratings, but it's still not the "official" way to be rated.

If you do get video, try to get record a few games with someone comparable to you (or a lot steadier than you). They say it's better to judge someone in game situation.

Ok thanks ill try get one up after new years!

Charlzz
12-30-2008, 08:20 AM
Videos will reveal some aspects, but certainly not pure physical toughness, speed, mental toughness, and desire.
We all can achieve strokes to break into 4.5 levels, but the above is what sets the higher levels apart from us.
And we can edit videos to show our best (or worst) strokes, totally askewing the "rating system".
Video is one tool for sure, but must be in addition to actual sight, record, history, and a few other factors which end up relegating videos to maybe 20 % of the equation.

That's true, but sometimes you can pick up a lot just be seeing how they hit their strokes. The consistency and pace can provide a lot of clues since they form the base from which you work from. There was that post of the top 50 woman junior. She looked at least 5.5 with the way she was hitting the ball. It would have been beyond belief if she were 3.5 unless she had no serve and was the biggest choker in the world.

And really, most players are in the 2.5 to 4.0 range anyway. If you're 4.5 or above, you probably have some idea of your rating, at least, in the US. Those in other countries, well, tough luck!

In any case, videos seem like an improvement over the NTRP rating as described in words where people feel like they are 5.0 and just have no idea how good that is.

Charlzz
12-30-2008, 08:22 AM
I think this is something that Will Hamilton (Fuzzy Yellow Balls guy) should do. Don't know if he is that interested in ratings or just tennis fundamentals in general, but he seems to explain things well enough to do this and has a good video crew.

He should display a clip of a usta match of each level (or simply use true usta-rated guys from each level), and explain what is going on with these players during the match and what makes their level.

I think it would be a good idea for them too, but it always seems like they have such a full plate of things they want to do that they never get around to the many suggestions they receive. One can always hope though.

Oh, say, happy bday to Will. He's another year older!

dennis10is
12-30-2008, 08:42 AM
Videos will reveal some aspects, but certainly not pure physical toughness, speed, mental toughness, and desire.
We all can achieve strokes to break into 4.5 levels, but the above is what sets the higher levels apart from us.
And we can edit videos to show our best (or worst) strokes, totally askewing the "rating system".
Video is one tool for sure, but must be in addition to actual sight, record, history, and a few other factors which end up relegating videos to maybe 20 % of the equation.

I will have to disagree with you on this. Stroke mechanics do matter above 4.5. Mechanics matters at all levels and is a major limiting factor in terms of keeping a player at a certain level. While 4.5 is a high level for recreational player, there are many 4.5s out there who will struggle to get any higher because of weaknesses in their mechanics. As a matter of fact, when I look at a 4.5 player, the first thing that comes of my mind is whether the player has room to grow within their current stroke mechanics. It is disappointing sometimes to know that a certain player has groove their strokes so long, so hard to get to 4.5 and they have hit a glass ceiling. The only way to jump to 5.0 and 5.5 would be for them to change something fundamental. Usually, at this point, they will not be psychologically able to do it.