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S H O W S T O P P E R !
12-31-2008, 06:55 PM
Uproar in Australia over plan to block Web sites

By TANALEE SMITH
Associated Press Writer

SYDNEY, Australia (AP) -- A proposed Internet filter dubbed the "Great Aussie Firewall" is promising to make Australia one of the strictest Internet regulators among democratic countries.

Consumers, civil-rights activists, engineers, Internet providers and politicians from opposition parties are among the critics of a mandatory Internet filter that would block at least 1,300 Web sites prohibited by the government - mostly child pornography, excessive violence, instructions in crime or drug use and advocacy of terrorism.

Hundreds protested in state capitals earlier this month.

"This is obviously censorship," said Justin Pearson Smith, 29, organizer of protests in Melbourne and an officer of one of a dozen Facebook groups against the filter.

The list of prohibited sites, which the government isn't making public, is arbitrary and not subject to legal scrutiny, Smith said, leaving it to the government or lawmakers to pursue their own online agendas.

"I think the money would be better spent in investing in law enforcement and targeting producers of child porn," he said.

Internet providers say a filter could slow browsing speeds, and many question whether it would achieve its intended goals. Illegal material such as child pornography is often traded on peer-to-peer networks or chats, which would not be covered by the filter.

"People don't openly post child porn, the same way you can't walk into a store in Sydney and buy a machine gun," said Geordie Guy, spokesman for Electronic Frontiers Australia, an Internet advocacy organization. "A filter of this nature only blocks material on public Web sites. But illicit material ... is traded on the black market, through secret channels."

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy proposed the filter earlier this year, following up on a promise of the year-old Labor Party government to make the Internet cleaner and safer.

"This is not an argument about free speech," he said in an e-mail to The Associated Press. "We have laws about the sort of material that is acceptable across all mediums and the Internet is no different. Currently, some material is banned and we are simply seeking to use technology to ensure those bans are working."

Jim Wallace, managing director of the Australian Christian Lobby, welcomed the proposed filter as "an important safeguard for families worried about their children inadvertently coming across this material on the Net."

Conroy's office said a peer-to-peer filter could be considered. Most of today's filters are unable to do that, though companies are developing the technology.

The plan, which would have to be approved by Parliament, has two tiers. A mandatory filter would block sites on an existing blacklist determined by the Australian Communications Media Authority. An optional filter would block adult content.

The latter could use keywords to determine which sites to block, a technology that critics say is problematic.

"Filtering technology is not capable of realizing that when we say breasts we're talking about breast cancer, or when we type in sex we may be looking for sexual education," Guy said. "The filter will accidentally block things it's not meant to block."

A laboratory test of six filters for the Australian Communications Media Authority found they missed 3 percent to 12 percent of material they should have barred and wrongly blocked access to 1 percent to 8 percent of Web sites. The most accurate filters slowed browsing speeds up to 86 percent.

The government has invited Internet providers to participate in a live test expected to be completed by the end of June.

The country's largest Internet provider, Telstra BigPond, has declined, but others will take part. Provider iiNet signed on to prove the filter won't work. Managing director Michael Malone said he would collect data to show the government "how stupid it is."

The government has allocated 45 million Australian dollars ($30.7 million) for the filter, the largest part of a four-year, AU$128.5 million ($89 million) cybersafety plan, which also includes funding for investigating online child abuse, education and research.

One of the world's largest child-advocacy groups questions such an allocation of money.

"The filter may not be able to in fact protect children from the core elements of the Internet that they are actually experiencing danger in," said Holly Doel-Mackaway, an adviser with Save the Children. "The filter should be one small part of an overall comprehensive program to educate children and families about using the Internet."

Australia's proposal is less severe than controls in Egypt and Iran, where bloggers have been imprisoned; in North Korea, where there is virtually no Internet access; or in China, which has a pervasive filtering system.

Internet providers in the West have blocked content at times. In early December, several British providers blocked a Wikipedia entry about heavy metal band Scorpion. The entry included its 1976 "Virgin Killer" album cover, which has an image of a naked underage girl. The Internet Watch Foundation warned providers the image might be illegal.

Canada, Sweden, the United Kingdom have filters, but they are voluntary.

In the United States, Pennsylvania briefly imposed requirements for service providers to block child-pornography sites, but a federal court struck down the law because the filters also blocked legitimate sites.

In Australia, a political party named the Australian Sex Party was launched last month in large part to fight the filter, which it believes could block legal pornography, sex education, abortion information and off-color language.

But ethics professor Clive Hamilton, in a column on the popular Australian Web site Crikey.com, scoffed at what he called "Net libertarians," who believe freedom of speech is more important than limiting what children can access online.

"The Internet has dramatically changed what children can see," said the professor at Charles Sturt University in Canberra, noting that "a few extra clicks of a mouse" could open sites with photos or videos of extreme or violent sex. "Opponents of ISP filters simply refuse to acknowledge or trivialize the extent of the social problem."

Australia is planning to set up this huge "firewall" that will ban a lot of sites. A list of sites wasn't provided. It was designed to block child porn, sites that encourage terrorism, etc etc. Opponents say that this is against free speech and that the filter will not only miss some sites that have these things, they also say that perfectly legal sites will be blocked due to computational error.

Discuss, debate and argue my fellow TWers.

stormholloway
01-01-2009, 12:42 AM
Lemme guess, "conspiracy sites" will be included because they "encourage terrorism".

Eviscerator
01-01-2009, 07:37 AM
Australia is planning to set up this huge "firewall" that will ban a lot of sites. A list of sites wasn't provided. It was designed to block child porn, sites that encourage terrorism, etc etc. Opponents say that this is against free speech and that the filter will not only miss some sites that have these things, they also say that perfectly legal sites will be blocked due to computational error.

Discuss, debate and argue my fellow TWers.

I think the idea has some merit and the counter arguments are pretty weak, especially in regards to child pornography.

I can certainly see the potential for abuse, but I also see the exploitation and abuse of a totally unregulated internet as well, where anything goes.

WildVolley
01-01-2009, 08:25 AM
While it's understandable that someone might want to censor the internet, these plans make me very suspicious.

Already in the United States, services that censor sites for businesses have a nasty habit of blocking political sites that aren't in the mainstream. Usually, these sites are described as "racist" or "advocating violence" and that is used as the basis for censorship. At least the for-profit censors are subject to market forces unlike the government.

S H O W S T O P P E R !
01-01-2009, 09:26 AM
I think the idea has some merit and the counter arguments are pretty weak, especially in regards to child pornography.

I can certainly see the potential for abuse, but I also see the exploitation and abuse of a totally unregulated internet as well, where anything goes.

The counter-argument is that illegal content is traded on private networks rather than in the open internet. That does make sense, it's the same as walking in front of a cop and smoking weed. You would do it in private, wouldn't you?

max
01-01-2009, 09:53 AM
This is really long overdue, in my book. I think the internet needs regulation. . . ASAP. For instance, the general level of civility on these boards would be increased if we simply had to list our actual names.

mary fierce
01-01-2009, 10:03 AM
People seem to forget that ideas were exchanged and speech was sufficently free before the 1990s when the internet blossomed, and ideas can be exchanged through other media. As the internet becomes more and more a replacement for TV, it will be subject to more and more regulation. I doubt there are valuable (yes, this is subjective) ideas that can't be expressed on the internet.

WildVolley
01-01-2009, 10:45 AM
This is really long overdue, in my book. I think the internet needs regulation. . . ASAP. For instance, the general level of civility on these boards would be increased if we simply had to list our actual names.

Is this a joke? :confused:

I notice you don't use your real name. Why is that?

WildVolley
01-01-2009, 10:48 AM
People seem to forget that ideas were exchanged and speech was sufficently free before the 1990s when the internet blossomed, and ideas can be exchanged through other media. As the internet becomes more and more a replacement for TV, it will be subject to more and more regulation. I doubt there are valuable (yes, this is subjective) ideas that can't be expressed on the internet.

I don't follow this line of reasoning. The internet has made it much easier to express ideas. I communicate with people all over the world very quickly.

So, you are arguing that blocking my ability to communicate on the internet wouldn't inhibit my ability to exchange ideas?

The same argument could have been (was) made for the invention of the printing press.

stormholloway
01-01-2009, 10:57 AM
For instance, the general level of civility on these boards would be increased if we simply had to list our actual names.

I can attest that this isn't true.

Regardless, censorship of the internet has nothing to do with child pornography and everything to do with the free exchange of ideas amongst the people. "Children" are always used as the pretext for the infringement of liberty in the modern age.

SFrazeur
01-01-2009, 11:19 AM
The internet, as they say, is The Information Super Highway. If the internet is the highway then a vehicle is the information being transmitted and exits are the websites.

This action would give a government the right to stop any and every vehicle (information) they want to without question. This will allow gov. to block any exits (websites), meaning vehicles would have to travel in the direction the gov. wishes.

-SF

SFrazeur
01-01-2009, 11:23 AM
For instance, the general level of civility on these boards would be increased if we simply had to list our actual names.

I can attest that this isn't true.

Ha ha! Very funny Mr. Holloway.



Regardless, censorship of the internet has nothing to do with child pornography and everything to do with the free exchange of ideas amongst the people. "Children" are always used as the pretext for the infringement of liberty in the modern age. Yes. It is often used an excuse for the abuse of power and not as a reason regulation.

-SF

SFrazeur
01-01-2009, 11:30 AM
People seem to forget that ideas were exchanged and speech was sufficently free before the 1990s when the internet blossomed, and ideas can be exchanged through other media. As the internet becomes more and more a replacement for TV, it will be subject to more and more regulation. I doubt there are valuable (yes, this is subjective) ideas that can't be expressed on the internet.

So. . . your argument is that because we have functioned without something in the past we should be able to function properly without it now. I suppose this might have some validity if filed under "the better part of virtue" or some such crap. But the internet is not a "luxury" for society as a whole. It is a requirement for modern western societies.

-SF

Eviscerator
01-01-2009, 11:37 AM
The counter-argument is that illegal content is traded on private networks rather than in the open internet. That does make sense, it's the same as walking in front of a cop and smoking weed. You would do it in private, wouldn't you?

It misses the point however. Even if it is true that some or most of it is traded on private networks, there is plenty of the crap on the regular internet. Unfortunately you can find anything on the internet if you do a little research. So preventing some of it is better than doing nothing about it.

If there was a way for citizens to decide on what should and should not be allowed (child pron, bomb making info, etc.) that would be great. However since that is probably not feasible, elected representatives have to do it for them.

stormholloway
01-01-2009, 11:55 AM
The internet, as they say, is The Information Super Highway. If the internet is the highway then a vehicle is the information being transmitted and exits are the websites.

This action would give a government the right to stop any and every vehicle (information) they want to without question. This will allow gov. to block any exits (websites), meaning vehicles would have to travel in the direction the gov. wishes.

-SF

Excellent analogy. Bravo.

I think people also miss the point about precedence. Once a precedent of censorship has been set, it serves as a stepping stone for further censorship, whether just or unjust. First, it's child pornography and other illegal activity. Then, it's anything deemed "subversive". Once people get used to the idea of their information being government filtered and approved, then that becomes "normal".

Eviscerator
01-01-2009, 02:18 PM
I think people also miss the point about precedence. Once a precedent of censorship has been set, it serves as a stepping stone for further censorship, whether just or unjust. First, it's child pornography and other illegal activity. Then, it's anything deemed "subversive". Once people get used to the idea of their information being government filtered and approved, then that becomes "normal".

I tend to agree with that, but there are of course two sides to every coin. While the danger you mention is certainly possible and even probable in certain societies, we can't have the internet be a total lawless society onto itself where any and everything goes. If some nutcase decides to publish methods for home made WMD's, we should not allow anyone who wants to make them to have access to the info for fear of the slippery slope.

stormholloway
01-01-2009, 02:39 PM
I tend to agree with that, but there are of course two sides to every coin. While the danger you mention is certainly possible and even probable in certain societies, we can't have the internet be a total lawless society onto itself where any and everything goes. If some nutcase decides to publish methods for home made WMD's, we should not allow anyone who wants to make them to have access to the info for fear of the slippery slope.

But the internet isn't a place, just as the telephone isn't a place. Illegal activity is still illegal in any given physical jurisdiction.

As per your example. Let's assume there is a whack job who wants access to information on making a WMD. If, in your scenario, he were unable to attain that information on the internet because it had been censored, is he the type of person to simply give up his quest for knowledge because convenient access to it has been blocked?

If the details of making a WMD are being posted on the internet, then they're public, and they can be attained other ways. Blocking internet content isn't going to stop someone who wants access to public information. He'll simply find the guy who posted it, or find someone who knows him, or find that information in some other way because that information is now common. If such knowledge is common enough that civilians can post it on the internet, then blocking that info on the web isn't going to stop someone who truly desires to build such a weapon. It's an inconvenience, but little more.

crabgrass
01-01-2009, 05:23 PM
australia like many other western countries is heading in the direction of a dictatorship....freedom of speech is ok as long as the government agree's with what it is you're saying.

Eviscerator
01-01-2009, 07:35 PM
But the internet isn't a place, just as the telephone isn't a place. Illegal activity is still illegal in any given physical jurisdiction.

As per your example. Let's assume there is a whack job who wants access to information on making a WMD. If, in your scenario, he were unable to attain that information on the internet because it had been censored, is he the type of person to simply give up his quest for knowledge because convenient access to it has been blocked?

If the details of making a WMD are being posted on the internet, then they're public, and they can be attained other ways. Blocking internet content isn't going to stop someone who wants access to public information. He'll simply find the guy who posted it, or find someone who knows him, or find that information in some other way because that information is now common. If such knowledge is common enough that civilians can post it on the internet, then blocking that info on the web isn't going to stop someone who truly desires to build such a weapon. It's an inconvenience, but little more.

I think you have forgotten what life was like before the internet. If the whack job wants the info he might try other means to obtain it, he might not. Some whach jobs are more motivated than others. Regardless, in most cases bomb making material will not be available to him. Furthermore he might live in a more rural setting where finding people willing and able to help him might not be readily available. Plus if he seeks them out via SOF or some other type publication, it may very well be a sting operation. However being able to punch a few keys from a remote location and find ways to build bombs should not be allowed in any society. The same goes for exploitation of children and a few other things that most sane people would agree on.

Beyond that there should be very few things people cannot access on the web in my view.
`

adams_1
01-01-2009, 09:02 PM
Rudd is an idiot. Conroy is an idiot. That's all there is to it.

lethalfang
01-02-2009, 12:28 AM
People seem to forget that ideas were exchanged and speech was sufficently free before the 1990s when the internet blossomed, and ideas can be exchanged through other media. As the internet becomes more and more a replacement for TV, it will be subject to more and more regulation. I doubt there are valuable (yes, this is subjective) ideas that can't be expressed on the internet.

Internet makes the exchange of idea easy and fast. To make the exchange of idea difficult when technology allows easy exchange is censorship. There no way to squeeze your way out of that argument.
If you are allowed to make a speech but no one is allowed to hear it, is that free speech? No.

stormholloway
01-02-2009, 06:04 AM
I think you have forgotten what life was like before the internet. If the whack job wants the info he might try other means to obtain it, he might not. Some whach jobs are more motivated than others. Regardless, in most cases bomb making material will not be available to him. Furthermore he might live in a more rural setting where finding people willing and able to help him might not be readily available. Plus if he seeks them out via SOF or some other type publication, it may very well be a sting operation. However being able to punch a few keys from a remote location and find ways to build bombs should not be allowed in any society. The same goes for exploitation of children and a few other things that most sane people would agree on.

Beyond that there should be very few things people cannot access on the web in my view.
`

The internet does not create whack jobs. You're either whacky or you're not. I've never really heard of a "lazy whack job". If they can't find something on the internet they're going to find other ways to create trouble. It won't stop them. However, banning independent documentaries that criticize the government may change our very social and political fabric. The negative consequences are much greater. And please don't be so naive that there won't be selective censorship of material the government deems "offensive". There are already efforts underway to ban so-called "subversive" websites and the laws aren't even in place to do it yet.

Eviscerator
01-02-2009, 05:57 PM
The internet does not create whack jobs. You're either whacky or you're not. I've never really heard of a "lazy whack job". If they can't find something on the internet they're going to find other ways to create trouble. It won't stop them. However, banning independent documentaries that criticize the government may change our very social and political fabric. The negative consequences are much greater. And please don't be so naive that there won't be selective censorship of material the government deems "offensive". There are already efforts underway to ban so-called "subversive" websites and the laws aren't even in place to do it yet.

We will have to agree to disagree about lazy whack jobs as there as some who do exist whether you want to believe it or not(I actually know of a few). That out of the way lets get to the heart of my point.
Other than the slippery slope argument, give me some other specific reason/s that governments should not prohibit either bomb making or child pornography sites?

15_ounce
01-02-2009, 06:10 PM
Australia's broadband internet is hopeless, and yet now they want to block information. BANNING is not the solution to problems. EDUCATION is the solution. I went to a university in Australia and it was absolutely HOPELESS. Spend more money on education, please.

stormholloway
01-03-2009, 05:41 AM
We will have to agree to disagree about lazy whack jobs as there as some who do exist whether you want to believe it or not(I actually know of a few). That out of the way lets get to the heart of my point.
Other than the slippery slope argument, give me some other specific reason/s that governments should not prohibit either bomb making or child pornography sites?

If someone is breaking the law they will be shut down, right? Child pornography is illegal to my knowledge.