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View Full Version : Cash demands Nadal, Djokovic to stop their time-wasting tactics


luckyboy1300
01-06-2009, 08:04 AM
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24872331-23216,00.html

some heated comments by cash...

veritech
01-06-2009, 08:08 AM
some harsh words by pat cash. a buzzer at 20 seconds isn't a bad idea.

seffina
01-06-2009, 08:15 AM
I don't think there needs to be any drastic changes. Just enforce the rules that are already there.

I love Rafa, but he's not above the game. I don't care if he takes a few seconds extra after a long rally. But as a professional, he has to generally follow the rules set up by the ATP.

Sentinel
01-06-2009, 08:16 AM
*clap clap* applauding and appreciating nadal-freaks rare stabs at humor.

don't you guys think that if they slow the courts down THIS much, so that rallies are longer and harder, that players will need a little more rest between serves. Just a thought.

GameSampras
01-06-2009, 08:17 AM
He makes a mockery of the rule in grand slam and Davis Cup tennis that states there should be no more than 20 seconds between the end of one point and the ball being served for the next," he said.

"He calls for his towel, then fiddles with his underpants in that less-than-becoming manner, which has become his trademark. Finally, he steadies himself, gathers his focus and then sets out to bounce the ball about 15 times before getting it into play.




I gotta agree with Cash on this one. You could almost take a quick nap in between the points when Nadal is serving. He takes a few minutes whiping himself off with a towel and has a lunch in with the ball boy.

Pete Semper
01-06-2009, 08:19 AM
Cash is right, respect the rules. I constantly count more than 35 sec for Nadal when he's serving (or return), same thing for Djoko !

sureshs
01-06-2009, 08:20 AM
I think Djokovic and Nadal's Slams should be taken away and given to Tsonga and Federer respectively.

Djokovicfan4life
01-06-2009, 08:20 AM
Haha, "fiddles with his underpants". Gotta love the way he words his response. :)

I guess he only really cares about the ATP, but to not include Sharapova in a discussion like this is a little silly. And to say that Djokovic's serve takes his opponents by surprise is just stupid. The pros have to make split second reactions all the time, and yet they're thrown off by his ball bouncing? That's just ridiculous.

GameSampras
01-06-2009, 08:21 AM
Well a big reason Nadal does it you know is to get plenty of rest in between points.. He knows what he is doing.

Nadal_Freak
01-06-2009, 08:23 AM
They should put a device on the back of Nadal's shorts that gives him a jolt everytime he picks it. How's that?
You shouldn't be looking there anyway. You should be watching the tennis. Also Nadal goes by the flow of the match and it helps both players when Nadal takes more time.

Jackie T. Stephens
01-06-2009, 08:24 AM
That's stupid, they don't waste time..

thejoe
01-06-2009, 08:27 AM
That's stupid, they don't waste time..

Yes they do. They are by no means the only culprits, but they are Number 1 and 3 in the world respectively, so of course they are going to get noticed more than others.

rommil
01-06-2009, 08:28 AM
You shouldn't be looking there anyway. You should be watching the tennis. Also Nadal goes by the flow of the match and it helps both players when Nadal takes more time.

Shouldn't be looking? He has the ball in his hand about to serve and where does it go? I don't have an issue with the incessant bouncing but if a tennis player on worldwide tv does a gesture thats about to mistake the ball for a suppository, it gets SLIGHTLY noticeable, don't you think?

ronalditop
01-06-2009, 08:33 AM
i totally agree with cash. what nadal and djokovic do is called cheating, and i cant really understand why after so many time nobody do something to change that.

thejoe
01-06-2009, 08:35 AM
i totally agree with cash. what nadal and djokovic do is called cheating, and i cant really understand why after so many time nobody do something to change that.

I wouldn't call it cheating, its just gamesmanship. But it certainly is detrimental from the fan's perspective, and isn't really fair on the opponent.

EDIT: Imagine how much earlier the Wimbledon final would have ended if Nadal took the same time as Roger in between serves :p

coloskier
01-06-2009, 08:48 AM
I wouldn't call it cheating, its just gamesmanship. But it certainly is detrimental from the fan's perspective, and isn't really fair on the opponent.

EDIT: Imagine how much earlier the Wimbledon final would have ended if Nadal took the same time as Roger in between serves :p

I'm sorry, but gamesmanship is also cheating. So, I think they should change the rules so that you can plant your racket in your opponents head when he goes over the 20 second rule or uses gamesmanship. Tennis shouldn't become basketball.

Gugafan_Redux
01-06-2009, 09:28 AM
The players can play however they want, but the umps need to enforce the rules.

Pete Semper
01-06-2009, 09:30 AM
Wow, you actually time it every time? Someone's got way too much time on their hands, haha!


Nope, I dont count anytime...But everytime I count Nadal, he takes more than 35 sec...believe that !

thejoe
01-06-2009, 09:31 AM
Unlike you, I like the extra time between points. It is not detrimental to the game. Maybe fore people with extremely short attention spans. I guess halftimes must be the ultimate waste of time. They do that in almost every other sport. More rest equals a higher level of tennis since players are less tired.

It is detrimental to the game. 99% of the tennis-watching population hate it, and I don't believe you can possibly like it either. What do you like about it? The quality of tennis is no higher, you just won't say a bad word about your man Nadal. I'm a massive Federer fan, but when fair criticism comes along, I can accept it, as I am not delusional. That is the least substantial argument I have ever seen.

Well the speed limit is 55 but almost everyone breaks that rule. If it isn't enforced, then it is on the tour. Not Nadal.

Just because it isn't enforced doesn't mean it is right to break it. Again, I'll state that I wouldn't call it cheating, but do you think its a good thing that he constantly breaks it?

tacou
01-06-2009, 09:31 AM
cash? whose that? oh yes a guy who used to play tennis, or more accurately, a guy people used to care about. he should shut his mouth.

I'm no Djoko fan but I don't think he takes too much time at all. who cares if he bounces the ball a lot before serve. last night against Gulbis he seemed fine.

as for Nadal, I've never noticed it at all. the only people who notice are people who want Rafa/Novak to lose so they pick on anything they can find, since they can't say anything about their games.

NamRanger
01-06-2009, 09:32 AM
Well the speed limit is 55 but almost everyone breaks that rule. If it isn't enforced, then it is on the tour. Not Nadal.


55 speed limit isn't enforced because of evidence reasons. A radar gun has on average an estimated error of + or - 5 MPH. Thus, why most police officers will give you that 5 mph range. However, most police officers will bust you for 10.



Also, a judge will never side with a police officer for busting someone going over 1-3 mph. It's called user error. Sometimes people go slightly over for whatever reason.



Again, another epic failure on your part.

veritech
01-06-2009, 09:33 AM
Well the speed limit is 55 but almost everyone breaks that rule. If it isn't enforced, then it is on the tour. Not Nadal.

does that make speeding over 55 legal? no. it's still against the law.

rommil
01-06-2009, 09:34 AM
Unlike you, I like the extra time between points. It is not detrimental to the game. Maybe fore people with extremely short attention spans. I guess halftimes must be the ultimate waste of time. They do that in almost every other sport. More rest equals a higher level of tennis since players are less tired.

How much time you like in between points and halftimes in other sports are irrelevant. This is tennis and there are rules in place. Enforced or not they are there. Your boss might let it slide if you go in to work late(assuming you have a job) but don't start bellyaching if he starts calling you on it.

tacou
01-06-2009, 09:34 AM
Someone needs to tell Pat "I need some cheap attention" Cash that there are chair umpires in every match to take care of these kind of things!

exactly! if a chair umpire enforces it, CONSISTENTLY, I have no problem. but they never do. the only time I've seen them give time warnings is to Nadal when he's serving like, break point down late in a match, completely ridiculous.

don't blame the players, blame officials. If umps enforced this when Novak/Nadal were juniors and continued to do so every match up until now, like they're supposed to, it wouldn't be a problem.

NamRanger
01-06-2009, 09:36 AM
exactly! if a chair umpire enforces it, CONSISTENTLY, I have no problem. but they never do. the only time I've seen them give time warnings is to Nadal when he's serving like, break point down late in a match, completely ridiculous.

don't blame the players, blame officials. If umps enforced this when Novak/Nadal were juniors and continued to do so every match up until now, like they're supposed to, it wouldn't be a problem.



This is what I can agree on. Nadal gets away with it because most umpires do not enforce it. This is the same thing that happened to Safin at the USO, where he was called out controversially at a pivotal point in the match (I believe it was a BP on his serve) for just barely crossing the hash mark (maybe by 1 mm).

rommil
01-06-2009, 09:37 AM
Well the speed limit is 55 but almost everyone breaks that rule. If it isn't enforced, then it is on the tour. Not Nadal.

Nadal should get a ticket everytime he goes over the time limit he will run out of pockets in his clamdiggers.

edmondsm
01-06-2009, 09:53 AM
The players are going to do whatever they can get away with. If the ATP wants their rule abided by then it is simple. Tell the umps to enforce it, if they don't FINE THEM.

tennisdad65
01-06-2009, 10:31 AM
what if the buzzer goes off when the guy is in the middle of his toss / serve? :)

What if the player has to change racquets or wait for the crowd to settle down, or opponent to get ready? Do you still start the timer on the buzzer?

ksbh
01-06-2009, 10:41 AM
Sure he has a right to say it but he's wrong about it. That's all.

That is one more GS than 99% of the players on tour, and the same amount as Djokovic has won, so he has every right to say what he said.

Babb
01-06-2009, 10:55 AM
Finally someone speaks out. Good for Cash.

aphex
01-06-2009, 11:00 AM
its quite unbelievable that the players themselves dont say anything about it...

if i were playing against nadal i would just stop waiting for serve after 20 seconds nad complain to the ref EACH AND EVERY TIME-
then maybe something would get done

ksbh
01-06-2009, 11:00 AM
Well in that case, we are seeing the same thing differently. I'm saying the umpires are doing a good job, or in other words they're not calling a violation because there is none.

On the other hand, you're saying they should be calling out these violations implying that they're incompetent. I disagree.

i repeat, getting away with something illegal doesn't make it legal. they're still violations. if i drove 80mph all year without getting caught, does that mean it's ok for me to drive as fast, if not faster, in the future?

nadal gets away with it because not all umpires don't enforce it. that's the atp's flaw and many players and figures are quick to point that out. and like i said, if you get away doing something illegal, getting away with it doesn't mean it's legal.

NamRanger
01-06-2009, 11:02 AM
its quite unbelievable that the players themselves dont say anything about it...

if i were playing against nadal i would just stop waiting for serve after 20 seconds nad complain to the ref EACH AND EVERY TIME-
then maybe something would get done



I believe Soderling did this in that 5 set epic over 3 days and he really got into Nadal's head. Although, I have to say, Soderling was quite rude.


Well in that case, we are seeing the same thing differently. I'm saying the umpires are doing a good job, or in other words they're not calling a violation because there is none.

On the other hand, you're saying they should be calling out these violations implying that they're incompetent. I disagree.


I believe this has to do more with an Umpire not wanting to interrupt the flow of the game and not wanting a match outcome to be dependent on the official, rather than the players. Thus why they are very lenient.

ksbh
01-06-2009, 11:02 AM
In the last Wimbledon final, Nadal served something like 30 service games. That's at least 120 serves (of course the actual number is much more than that because Federer won quite a few points on Nadal's serve). How many time violations did Pascal Maria give him?! Pat Cash is clueless!

I guess Pascal Maria has no idea what he is doing as an umpire, because he routinely gives Nadal time violations all the time. Probably the most out of any Umpire out there.

NamRanger
01-06-2009, 11:04 AM
In the last Wimbeldon final, Nadal served something like 32 service games. That's at least 128 serves. How many time violations did Pascal Maria give him?! Pat Cash is clueless!


He did give him one in the 4th set tie break, or something like that. I don't remember exactly, but it surely ticked off Nadal.

tacou
01-06-2009, 11:05 AM
yeah it was ridiculous, you don't start giving time violations in fourth sets, especially in tie breakers.

aphex
01-06-2009, 11:06 AM
I believe Soderling did this in that 5 set epic over 3 days and he really got into Nadal's head. Although, I have to say, Soderling was quite rude.





I believe this has to do more with an Umpire not wanting to interrupt the flow of the game and not wanting a match outcome to be dependent on the official, rather than the players. Thus why they are very lenient.


no, whats rude is that you are following the rules, the other guy isnt and nothing happens

in football if you delay on purpose, you get a yellow card-if you get two you are expelled from the game

for some reason tennis refs are ball-less

ksbh
01-06-2009, 11:07 AM
So Pascal Maria must be another incompetent umpire according to Federer fans. Of the 120 odd serves that Nadal delivered, Mr. Maria gave him just 1 time violation!

He did give him one in the 4th set tie break, or something like that. I don't remember exactly, but it surely ticked off Nadal.

coloskier
01-06-2009, 11:09 AM
Unlike you, I like the extra time between points. It is not detrimental to the game. Maybe fore people with extremely short attention spans. I guess halftimes must be the ultimate waste of time. They do that in almost every other sport. More rest equals a higher level of tennis since players are less tired.

Tell that to the TV networks (ESPN) that have dropped playing tennis matches because they last too long.

veritech
01-06-2009, 11:11 AM
Well in that case, we are seeing the same thing differently. I'm saying the umpires are doing a good job, or in other words they're not calling a violation because there is none.

On the other hand, you're saying they should be calling out these violations implying that they're incompetent. I disagree.

how about you count every once in a while the amount of time nadal takes. please. granted he doesn't do it EVERY moment, but it's pretty often.

i'm saying they should be penalized for not enforcing the rules. if there were no violations, people like agassi wouldn't be complaining about the unfair, ridiculous amount of time nadal takes, would they?

ksbh
01-06-2009, 11:16 AM
Nadal's played 100s of players over the years. Why aren't the rest complaining? Food for thought.

how about you count every once in a while the amount of time nadal takes. please. granted he doesn't do it EVERY moment, but it's pretty often.

i'm saying they should be penalized for not enforcing the rules. if there were no violations, people like agassi wouldn't be complaining about the unfair, ridiculous amount of time nadal takes, would they?

ninman
01-06-2009, 11:16 AM
How about this, a player may only towel off once per game, and make a maximum of 5 bounces before serving. I remember during wimbledon 2006 they actually timed Nadal on TV, and he was taking 30+ seconds. The other thing is, they give Nadal a time violation warning, but what next? Nothing, that's what. They umpires just warn him, regardless of how much he does it.

Personally I think Nadal should have been defaulted several times by now for time abuse.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 11:26 AM
its quite unbelievable that the players themselves dont say anything about it...

if i were playing against nadal i would just stop waiting for serve after 20 seconds nad complain to the ref EACH AND EVERY TIME-
then maybe something would get done
Because your only chance of winning the match would be to try and get him disqualified? Don't have any regret because it wouldn't work anyway and he would still beat you fair and square...

veritech
01-06-2009, 11:26 AM
Nadal's played 100s of players over the years. Why aren't the rest complaining? Food for thought.

it doesn't take everyone's voice to prove a point. rather, it just takes one person.

and fyi, it's not just nadal who does this. he's one of many.

aphex
01-06-2009, 11:38 AM
Because your only chance of winning the match would be to try and get him disqualified? Don't have any regret because it wouldn't work anyway and he would still beat you fair and square...


i obviously meant : if i were a professional player facing nadal...
u really didnt grasp that?? wow!

the one who is not playing fair and square btw is nadal...

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 11:42 AM
it doesn't take everyone's voice to prove a point. rather, it just takes one person.

and fyi, it's not just nadal who does this. he's one of many.
By the way, if I had to endure the vicious spin and power of Nadal, I would be immensely grateful to have a few extra seconds between each point. (Maybe that's why nobody ever complains!)

Zaragoza
01-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Thatīs cool but Cash is not an umpire and he has no voice in the ATP or the ITF so I donīt care what he says.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 11:46 AM
i obviously meant : if i were a professional player facing nadal...
u really didnt grasp that?? wow!

the one who is not playing fair and square btw is nadal...
To me he is and if there was any serious complaints, they should be voiced by his current opponents and not by a guy like Cash who's bringing up this stale issue (have you seen how fast Nadal was serving today? Or last week?) for no good reason other than his personal spite.

seffina
01-06-2009, 11:48 AM
He did give him one in the 4th set tie break, or something like that. I don't remember exactly, but it surely ticked off Nadal.

He got one during the second set as well. And Mac was like... don't do this. He was serving for the set.

Give it to him the first time in the match he has a time violation. It'll set the tone.

Why does it matter to people who said this? Yes, he might be bitter and biased. It doesn't mean that what he's saying is incorrect.

aphex
01-06-2009, 11:50 AM
To me he is and if there was any serious complaints, they should be voiced by his current opponents and not by a guy like Cash who's bringing up this stale issue (have you seen how fast Nadal was serving today? Or last week?) for no good reason other than his personal spite.

what spite? because he lost 10 years ago in an exhibition?? lol

btw, nadal himself knows that he does it and had said ( i think around 2006) that he would try to improve next year...

i guess it didnt really work out

swedechris
01-06-2009, 11:50 AM
some harsh words by pat cash. a buzzer at 20 seconds isn't a bad idea.



lets have that. its normal in many sports. in basketball, handball ,soccer and in icehockey there are limits to delaying play...
tennis needs to speed things up , now.!

seffina
01-06-2009, 11:52 AM
Thatīs cool but Cash is not an umpire and he has no voice in the ATP or the ITF so I donīt care what he says.

I don't care that it is Cash saying this, just that what he's saying is somewhat correct. The ATP needs to tell their Umpries enforce the rules. And as I explained in the previous post, only umps can do this. I think the buzzer thing is silly. It's silly to have a 20 second break when the audience is clapping after a great rally for 20 seconds. The player might need 35 seconds then. But if the player is unnecessarily taking extra time ... then the ump should enforce the rule. Any player. Not just Nadal or Nole.

swedechris
01-06-2009, 11:52 AM
Thatīs cool but Cash is not an umpire and he has no voice in the ATP or the ITF so I donīt care what he says.




likewise we shouldnt care what you say then .. kidding ..
lets face it , nadal stalls .! on his own serve and also when the opponent is serving . novak does it too.
all others stick to the rules.

time to change that . lets have a 20 sec clock . ASAP!

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 11:54 AM
what spite? because he lost 10 years ago in an exhibition?? lol

btw, nadal himself knows that he does it and had said ( i think around 2006) that he would try to improve next year...

i guess it didnt really work out
He did improve and I don't remember him getting any warning recently. Hence my suspicions about Cash bringing this dead turkey up now when there's evidently no reason to do so.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 11:59 AM
lets have that. its normal in many sports. in basketball, handball ,soccer and in icehockey there are limits to delaying play...
tennis needs to speed things up , now.!
It's a preposterous idea, notwithstanding how annoying it would be, who would want to see botched rushed tennis because the players would dread a buzzer. Better take 5 more seconds at times and prepare your shot carefully to have a great rally rather than having to endure sloppy hurried tennis. I always find that the players who rush too much on serve make lots of mistakes and it's ugly to watch.

tacou
01-06-2009, 12:04 PM
I think a silent clock that counts up to 20 in green, then goes red for overage would be good.

that way it doesn't disturb players but they, the crowd and officials can see when and by how much they are violating the rule.

vtmike
01-06-2009, 12:07 PM
It's a preposterous idea, notwithstanding how annoying it would be, who would want to see botched rushed tennis because the players would dread a buzzer. Better take 5 more seconds at times and prepare your shot carefully to have a great rally rather than having to endure sloppy hurried tennis. I always find that the players who rush too much on serve make lots of mistakes and it's ugly to watch.

And while you are at it, why not have a tea break between each shot so that the players can catch their breath and don't rush! .......Nadal needs to take more time between shots because his game is very physically demanding and he gets tired quick...
you might enjoy watching nadal wipe his biceps and pull his underwear all day....but others don't!

thejoe
01-06-2009, 12:12 PM
He did improve and I don't remember him getting any warning recently. Hence my suspicions about Cash bringing this dead turkey up now when there's evidently no reason to do so.

What? He doesn't fiddle with his socks anymore after every point, that's it. Its no major improvement. All you Rafa fans are so damn precious. If people criticise Federer, with undeniable facts, then I accept it. Nadal does take a long time in between points, so come out of your fan bubble, and stop the constant defence.

seffina
01-06-2009, 12:21 PM
I give up. Why can't Nadal fans still be fans of Nadal, but also admit that he breaks the rule?

There is no rule against being arrogant. When you've won this many GSs and been number one for so long, I think you have a right to be somewhat arrogant. Or even being number 2. And I don't think Fed's arrogant at all. But if he was, it's not a big deal. He's done something to be arrogant about. As long as it isn't an ATP rule that you can't be arrogant, him being arrogant or not is not relevant to this discussion.

I love Rafa. I watch all of his matches. I root for him almost always. Doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults. He is a tennis player. Not perfection personified.

Nadal_Freak
01-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Difference.

Being a "snob" is in the mind of how someone perceives someone else's personality. Subjective.

Someone noting that several players (repeat..SEVERAL, not just Nadal) violate the time rule by keeping track of how long they take between points is fact-based. Objective.

Learn these two words and I'm sure you'd be made fun of and argued with much less on these boards.
Alright Nadal takes more time but it is not enforced. It is not a priority of the atp to fix this either. Only obsessive fans are making a big deal about this.

veritech
01-06-2009, 12:35 PM
Alright Nadal takes more time but it is not enforced. It is not a priority of the atp to fix this either. Only obsessive fans are making a big deal about this.

only obsessive fans try to defend the claim that nadal is not violating the rules (and never does), when it is clear as day that he does.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 12:36 PM
And while you are at it, why not have a tea break between each shot so that the players can catch their breath and don't rush! .......Nadal needs to take more time between shots because his game is very physically demanding and he gets tired quick...
you might enjoy watching nadal wipe his biceps and pull his underwear all day....but others don't!
The point is I don't think Nadal takes more time than other players. I see players take a longer time after a long rally constantly except nobody cares. I disagree with Nadal being stigmatized for something everyone else does.

ninman
01-06-2009, 12:39 PM
Alright Nadal takes more time but it is not enforced. It is not a priority of the atp to fix this either. Only obsessive fans are making a big deal about this.

I've got a better idea, let's just not have rules at all. I just want to see a match being played fairly and within the rules. Examples of matches where Nadal was NOT called on for his cheating would be:

Rome 2006 vs Federer, who said afterwards that Uncle Tony was speaking to Nadal during the match, something which is completely forbidden, and also was taking AGES between every, single point. Monte Carlo 2006 vs Federer, same as above. Roland Garros 2006 vs Lubicic, again same thing. Lubicic also stated that even though he was given a time violation during the match it didn't change anything.

Zaragoza
01-06-2009, 12:53 PM
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24872331-23216,00.html

some heated comments by cash...

I was curious to see how much time Cash took between points. I found this game at Wimbledon where he spends 23, 30, 28 and 33 seconds between points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndc2CIy4wM

I wonder if this was just a coincidence or if he also used time-wasting tactics according to himself.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 12:59 PM
I was curious to see how much time Cash took between points. I found this game at Wimbledon where he spends 23, 30, 28 and 33 seconds between points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndc2CIy4wM

I wonder if this was just a coincidence or if he also used time-wasting tactics according to himself.
Bravo Zaragoza, once more you get the perfect answer. End of discussion, case closed. Cash made a fool of himself as usual.

gj011
01-06-2009, 01:00 PM
I was curious to see how much time Cash took between points. I found this game at Wimbledon where he spends 23, 30, 28 and 33 seconds between points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndc2CIy4wM

I wonder if this was just a coincidence or if he also used time-wasting tactics according to himself.

His Wimbledon title should be taken from him and given to Lendl.

ninman
01-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Bravo Zaragoza, once more you get the perfect answer. End of discussion, case closed. Cash made a fool of himself as usual.

If you read what he said he admitted to time wasting. Maybe he regrets it now and doesn't want to see it keep perpetuating in the game.

veritech
01-06-2009, 01:04 PM
So your theory is that Nadal is the only player who goes over the 20 seconds? That is simply not true and that's what I have an issue with. Start timing every player for the duration of an entire match and you'll be really surprised.

nadal and djokovic aren't the only players. but because they're 1 and 3, they're the ones that would receive the most flak.

ninman
01-06-2009, 01:05 PM
So your theory is that Nadal is the only player who goes over the 20 seconds? That is simply not true and that's what I have an issue with. Start timing every player for the duration of an entire match and you'll be really surprised.

Well why don't they? The reason people put the emphasis on Nadal and Djokovic is because they are number 1 and 3 in the world rankings, therefore high profile players.

I think they should start timing the players though, rules are rules, and 20 seconds is more than enough time to get some balls and then serve.

P_Agony
01-06-2009, 01:11 PM
I agree. That is the only thing I have against Nadal. He should really work on improving that. Djokovic is the worst thing to ever happen to the 25-second rule though.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 01:13 PM
Well why don't they? The reason people put the emphasis on Nadal and Djokovic is because they are number 1 and 3 in the world rankings, therefore high profile players.

I think they should start timing the players though, rules are rules, and 20 seconds is more than enough time to get some balls and then serve.
The thing is some extra seconds to celebrate an outstanding shot or recovering your breath after a super long rally doesn't take away from the game, IMO it adds to the entertainment, so I don't know why you would want to impose a military rule on that when it actually adds to the enjoyment of the game and is also pretty unavoidable at the end of some long rallies or to give a chance to a player to regroup a little after a major effort or to focus more intensely on a very decisive point.

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 01:15 PM
I agree. That is the only thing I have against Nadal. He should really work on improving that. Djokovic is the worst thing to ever happen to the 25-second rule though.
Why should he since he has already hastened his pace and some people like you will never acknowledge that he has?

ninman
01-06-2009, 01:16 PM
The thing is some extra seconds to celebrate an outstanding shot or recovering your breath after a super long rally doesn't take away from the game, IMO it adds to the entertainment, so I don't know why you would want to impose a military rule on that when it actually adds to the enjoyment of the game and is also pretty unavoidable at the end of some long rallies or to give a chance to a player to regroup a little after a major effort or to focus more intensely on a very decisive point.

They are professional athletes, if they need to catch their breath between points then they shouldn't be playing tennis. No excuses, the rules are the rules, if they can't stick to them then they should be punished, period.

ninman
01-06-2009, 01:16 PM
Why should he since he has already hastened his pace and some people like you will never acknowledge that he has?

because he's still breaking the rules.

veritech
01-06-2009, 01:16 PM
The thing is some extra seconds to celebrate an outstanding shot or recovering your breath after a super long rally doesn't take away from the game, IMO it adds to the entertainment, so I don't know why you would want to impose a military rule on that when it actually adds to the enjoyment of the game and is also pretty unavoidable at the end of some long rallies or to give a chance to a player to regroup a little after a major effort or to focus more intensely on a very decisive point.

celebrating doesn't take long. it's nadal's OCD habits that consume all the time.

TheTruth
01-06-2009, 01:18 PM
Haha, "fiddles with his underpants". Gotta love the way he words his response. :)

I guess he only really cares about the ATP, but to not include Sharapova in a discussion like this is a little silly. And to say that Djokovic's serve takes his opponents by surprise is just stupid. The pros have to make split second reactions all the time, and yet they're thrown off by his ball bouncing? That's just ridiculous.

That's what I think, too. Only one side of tennis? Insane!

TheTruth
01-06-2009, 01:22 PM
Haha, "fiddles with his underpants". Gotta love the way he words his response. :)

I guess he only really cares about the ATP, but to not include Sharapova in a discussion like this is a little silly. And to say that Djokovic's serve takes his opponents by surprise is just stupid. The pros have to make split second reactions all the time, and yet they're thrown off by his ball bouncing? That's just ridiculous.

That's what I think, too. You're only concerned about one side of tennis? The biggest offenders are on the other side. Insane!

tacou
01-06-2009, 01:26 PM
So your theory is that Nadal is the only player who goes over the 20 seconds? That is simply not true and that's what I have an issue with. Start timing every player for the duration of an entire match and you'll be really surprised.

no, not at all. I've been defending Novak and Nadal this entire thread, I don't know where you've drawn this conclusion from?

and I would never follow your suggestion as I see it as a huge waste of time, I watch tennis to enjoy the match, not time howlong they take between points.

edmondsm
01-06-2009, 01:31 PM
Most tennis fans that are male, myself included, find the WTA boring already. An added bonus to women's tennis is that there are sometimes attractive females involved, so if Sharapova wants to strut around a little extra in between points you won't find too many guys complaining. It's a little sexist, but it's the truth.

P_Agony
01-06-2009, 01:46 PM
Why should he since he has already hastened his pace and some people like you will never acknowledge that he has?

Look, I've got nothing against Nadal, but let's face it, he takes a lot of time. It's true the last I watched him play was against Davydenko in Paris, but still, I didn't see any improvement there. It's not like he's doing it on purpose - I'm sure he's not, he is too much of a good guy for that. Hell, I'm sure he doesn't even notice it himself, but the fact is he does take a lot of time between points. There is nothing wrong with saying that, and there is nothing wrong with him taking notice and perhaps making a bit more effort to improve that.

Djokovic is a whole different stroy. With him, I am sure he's taking time on purpose. He bounces the ball 20 times sometimes for crying out loud. His time-outs are outrages as well.

Nadal's Freak, what does this thread has to do with Federer? For a guy who hates him, you mention him in every single post. I might as well think that deep down inside you're in love with him or something. It'll explain a lot of things...

veroniquem
01-06-2009, 01:55 PM
no, not at all. I've been defending Novak and Nadal this entire thread, I don't know where you've drawn this conclusion from?

and I would never follow your suggestion as I see it as a huge waste of time, I watch tennis to enjoy the match, not time howlong they take between points.
We totally agree then.

roundiesee
01-06-2009, 02:09 PM
It's the people in charge of tennis that are at fault. What's the point of having a "rule" if they don't actively enfoirce it? They don't seem to have the guts to take action when it comes to a big name player having a go at the rules.

purple-n-gold
01-06-2009, 02:23 PM
I agree 110%!! Calling for the towel after every point and all that damn ball bouncing is utterly ridiculous, not to mention all the other crap.

The umpires need to enforce the rules.

As previously posted the Wimbly final might have ended in daylight and the outcome might have been different if it weren't for Nadal tactics.

Not to mention its so effen boring.

Gorecki
01-06-2009, 02:25 PM
this deserves a proper poll...

vive le beau jeu !
01-06-2009, 02:31 PM
I was curious to see how much time Cash took between points. I found this game at Wimbledon where he spends 23, 30, 28 and 33 seconds between points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndc2CIy4wM

I wonder if this was just a coincidence or if he also used time-wasting tactics according to himself.
but in his (great) interview (http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,24872331-23216,00.html), he said he wasn't an angel either... ;)
"And I was no angel. I stalled with the best of them. The guy whose psyche I knew was best disturbed by a little gamesmanship, such as suddenly halting play because somebody was supposedly moving in the stands, was Ivan Lendl."
i trust on your numbers, but it's just an example (and at a crucial moment as bigmac broke him for leading in the fifth set) so it doesn't prove he was used to do it as often as nadal.

i'm against a buzzer... sometimes it's true that players might need a little more time to recover, like after an exhausting point in a fifth set... or depending on the players' placements on the court when the point is over !
(theorically we start counting the time when the ball goes out of play... until the server hits the ball on the next serve)
it's not the same if the previous point is a double fault or a spectacular point where one of the players ends embedded into a commercial billboard... or if some top models have problems for handling the balls during points. ;)

the umpires just have to avoid that some players do it too much often... and i think they should be more severe.

luckyboy1300
01-06-2009, 03:26 PM
I think a silent clock that counts up to 20 in green, then goes red for overage would be good.

that way it doesn't disturb players but they, the crowd and officials can see when and by how much they are violating the rule.

no. i think a buzzer is still a good idea. in that way, to avoid embarassment, the players-in-question of this thread can spare time practicing how to shorten their service rituals hehehe anyways it's just a fun thought. i don't think the atp will hire more personnel on court to operate the buzzer, since incidents might happen between points that necessitates more than 20 seconds (a racket getting broken, etc.). they already have hawkeye operators as it is.

miyagi
01-06-2009, 03:31 PM
I personally have never liked cash but he IS entitled to his opinion.

I'm sure if enough people jump up and down then something will be done about it.

I dont agree tennis has gotten boring I would remind Cash that Wimbledon 08 was one of the most watched sporting events all year.

Infact Nadal and djoko were involved with a huge number of great matches last year that kept me glued to my TV set.

Plus Nadal has certainly attracted a large crowd of followers in his own right.

I also dont think if Nadal/Djoko were made to religiously stick to the 20s rule there would be any difference in the results.

Tennis needs to have different flavours and characters to stay interesting, I say leave them be...........

Noveson
01-06-2009, 03:42 PM
I do think time limits should be imposed. The buzzer idea actually isn't too bad. But I am sick of people crowing about how it hurts the game and how Nadal is a cheater when the man brings a huge number of people to the game. Have some respect. Federer would not get near as much attention without Nadal, and neither would tennis.

JeMar
01-06-2009, 04:05 PM
Say whatever you want about Cash and his accomplishments or behavior, he is right on this issue. The ATP needs to either enforce the rules for everyone or change it. Nadal and Djoko should be held to the same standard as everyone else.

Mick
01-06-2009, 04:07 PM
don't blame nadal or djokovic. instead blame the atp officials for not enforcing the rule. if they enforced the rule, nadal and djokovic would play by the rule.

oneleggedcardinal
01-06-2009, 04:07 PM
I was curious to see how much time Cash took between points. I found this game at Wimbledon where he spends 23, 30, 28 and 33 seconds between points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndc2CIy4wM

I wonder if this was just a coincidence or if he also used time-wasting tactics according to himself.

His service routine looks like a lite version of Nadal's.

His Wimbledon title should be taken from him and given to Lendl.

What? Why? What is the basis of this statement?

If you read what he said he admitted to time wasting. Maybe he regrets it now and doesn't want to see it keep perpetuating in the game.

That may be what motivated him. Or he may be jealous. Or it may be a mixture of both. It may be that he knows whats going on with Nadal and Djokovic's service routines and he just wants to make some noise. The fact of the matter is, that the noise he's making is correct.

SourStraws
01-06-2009, 04:53 PM
Oh then why was he not bitter abt Safin, Federer, Sampras, Agassi etc....? If this is what helps you go to sleep at night, I won't try and convince you otherwise :)

That was hilarious lol


Anyways..... I think the rule should be enforced. Taking 15 over the limit is ridiculous imo.... I can understand as much as a 5 second lee-way on occassion but 15 is overdoing. As to the Nole thing..... I don't criticize him for taking a kazillion bounces but when it constantly goes over the time limit, then something should be done. Good comment by Pat.... But kind of overboard imo


S.S.

oneleggedcardinal
01-06-2009, 05:28 PM
Interesting bit of information here:

I just remembered that my dad was talking to me a little while ago, and he mentioned how Cash was the first player to climb up into the stands after a Wimbledon win. It's on Wikipedia as well...so take that for what its worth. I just find it kind of coincidental that these two players we're talking about are connected by taking too much time between points and climbing into the rafters after winning Wimbledon.

COPEY
01-07-2009, 03:04 AM
I was curious to see how much time Cash took between points. I found this game at Wimbledon where he spends 23, 30, 28 and 33 seconds between points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sndc2CIy4wM

I wonder if this was just a coincidence or if he also used time-wasting tactics according to himself.


I've been trying to find the data, but so far I haven't had much luck, but I do believe that when Cash was playing the rule was 30 seconds. That means that the time he took between serves was fine. Some years ago there as a push to speed up the time it took to play a match, and changing the time limit to serve was one of the initiatives taken to bring that about.

The facts:

-- According to the rule, the current time limit is 20 seconds, and there are players who routinely violate the rule.

-- By in large the rule isn't supported by the ATP, thus it's not enforced by the umpires (consistently).

-- If the day comes that the rule is aggressively enforced, the violators will change their routine.

It's really that simple lol.

In the meantime, here's an interesting article that to some degree is relevent to this thread: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/sports/tennis/21tennis.html

mrmo1115
01-07-2009, 06:32 AM
Whatever Cash says won't affect Nadal or Djokovic...

Andyk028
01-07-2009, 08:03 AM
I think Djokovic and Nadal's Slams should be taken away and given to Tsonga and Federer respectively.

hahahahaha

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 11:22 AM
yeah it was ridiculous, you don't start giving time violations in fourth sets, especially in tie breakers.Sure they should. Nadal and Djoker both take longer as their matches go on. So penalize them when they cross the line.

They'll stop breaking the rule. (Whenever Agassi got the Umpire to call it on Nadal, Nadal would not violate the time again. He *can* adapt.)





The point is I don't think Nadal takes more time than other players.You are mistaken. I've timed *many* matches. Nadal consistently exceeds 35 seconds. Be objective; not emotional.




The thing is some extra seconds to celebrate an outstanding shot or recovering your breath after a super long rally doesn't take away from the game, IMO it adds to the entertainment, so I don't know why you would want to impose a military rule on that when it actually adds to the enjoyment of the game and is also pretty unavoidable at the end of some long rallies or to give a chance to a player to regroup a little after a major effort or to focus more intensely on a very decisive point.You don't understand.

a) When I time the gap between points, I time it from when the Umpire calls the new score. (Nadal regularly takes over 35 seconds. Djoker tends to bounce the ball more on big points and later in the match; he's not as regular as Nadal with his violations. But Djoker is clearly the 2nd worse on the ATP tour.)

b) After big, long or super exciting points, notice the Umpires tend to wait several seconds for the applause and to give the players a chance to catch their wind before calling the score. It would not be "militaristic" at all....




That's stupid, they don't waste time..Somebody isn't paying attention.

- KK

edmondsm
01-07-2009, 11:30 AM
USTA Director of Officials Richard Kaufman says on the USTA website:

"Different events have different time procedures. In general, it is 20-25 seconds between points. The time starts from the end of the previous point to the time that the first serve is struck on the next point. It is not dependant on the chair umpire stating the score. It is probably just enough time for Novak’s service preparation."

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 12:26 PM
USTA Director of Officials Richard Kaufman says on the USTA website:

"It is not dependant on the chair umpire stating the score."[/I]Wow! Nadal is even worse than I thought. (I didn't know when the clock started. I guessed ... wrong.)

- KK

edmondsm
01-07-2009, 12:29 PM
Wow! Nadal is even worse than I thought. (I didn't know when the clock started. I guessed ... wrong.)

- KK

Yeah, if Nadal is continually going 10-20 seconds over the alloted time then something is wrong. Either change the rule or enforce it.

flyer
01-07-2009, 12:47 PM
Cash needs to stop acting like he matters...

Hes a goofy, one hit wonder and nothing more, maybe hes still mad that Nadal beat him when he was 14...

Pat Cash saying anything is no worthy news story.

rolandg
01-07-2009, 01:18 PM
Cash needs to stop acting like he matters...

Hes a goofy, one hit wonder and nothing more, maybe hes still mad that Nadal beat him when he was 14...

Pat Cash saying anything is no worthy news story.

Well, he has a lot more right and authority than anyone on this board.

tacou
01-07-2009, 01:18 PM
Sure they should. Nadal and Djoker both take longer as their matches go on. So penalize them when they cross the line.



as everyone here has so clearly stated, it doesn't matter if they break this sacred rule by half a second or twenty minutes; they must be stopped!

no but seriously, that's a really strange thing of you to say. you see nothing wrong with allowing nadal to do it for nearly an entire match, and then when he's within a couple serves of a GS call him on it? stupid.

like you said, if they called it on him earlier he would have adapted and been allowed to play the fourth set tie breaker without that ridiculous interruption.

tacou
01-07-2009, 01:19 PM
Well, he has a lot more right and authority than anyone on this board.

that's where you're wrong friend. everyone can count to twenty.

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 01:54 PM
... that's a really strange thing of you to say. you see nothing wrong with allowing nadal to do it for nearly an entire match, and then when he's within a couple serves of a GS call him on it?NWIP

- KK

Morrissey
01-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Well, he has a lot more right and authority than anyone on this board.

We had authority to begin with? I know one thing, itīs a public tennis forum and we have a voice too. Maybe not to the extent of Cash but we still do have one. Either way, Cash is entitled to his opinion (not that anyone really gives a **** anyway), just like us. And just like everyone in here disagrees with someone, we can disagree with Pat Cash. And I rightfully disagree with him.

yemenmocha
01-07-2009, 02:38 PM
nadal and djoke need to be fined for this. I wish the chair would take it seriously, perhaps at least as much as they do for racquet abuse and audible obscenities.

veroniquem
01-07-2009, 02:45 PM
Yeah, if Nadal is continually going 10-20 seconds over the alloted time then something is wrong. Either change the rule or enforce it.
He doesn't. Let's time him in his match tomorrow if you want, the "consistently exceeds 35 seconds" business is a complete fabrication.

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 02:57 PM
... the "consistently exceeds 35 seconds" business is a complete fabrication.You are simply wrong. I've timed him multiple times in multiple tournaments. I recommend you actually have some facts at your disposal....

Nadal and Djoker are fun to watch ... during points. They both make for laborious TV with their time-wasting idiosyncrasies.

Still, the worst match EVER is Shriekapova -vs- Pierce. Those two make watching RUST seem exciting.

- KK

veroniquem
01-07-2009, 03:04 PM
You are simply wrong. I've timed him multiple times in multiple tournaments. I recommend you actually have some facts at your disposal....

Nadal and Djoker are fun to watch ... during points. They both make for laborious TV with their time-wasting idiosyncrasies.

Still, the worst match EVER is Shriekapova -vs- Pierce. Those two make watching RUST seem exciting.

- KK
I've timed him too several times because of those wild accusations, I guess there were major discrepancies in our watches or we didn't time the same matches! As I said, let's do it tomorrow and we'll see who's right. A few seconds at times, sure but systematically OVER 35 seconds, that's nonsense.

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 03:06 PM
I don't get the Tennis Channel. Carry on.

Also, one match isn't a good sample. I've measured him in dozens of matches. The charge is accurate.

- KK

seffina
01-07-2009, 03:09 PM
Nadal and Djoker are fun to watch ... during points.

- KK
Isn't that the point? Nobody's really fun to watch between points.

Nadal's not always over 35 secs, however, he is usually over the official 20 secs. I don't know, I find his pace fine. It doesn't detract me from enjoying him play.

But as I said, I'm not against them actually enforcing the rule. They don't because the rule isn't as important to them as the actual tennis that is being played during the points.

tacou
01-07-2009, 03:16 PM
NWIP

- KK

sorry karl, not familiar with the acronym.

ThA_Azn_DeViL
01-07-2009, 03:18 PM
Isn't that the point? Nobody's really fun to watch between points.

Nadal's not always over 35 secs, however, he is usually over the official 20 secs. I don't know, I find his pace fine. It doesn't detract me from enjoying him play.

But as I said, I'm not against them actually enforcing the rule. They don't because the rule isn't as important to them as the actual tennis that is being played during the points.

There was a hint of sarcasm in his post, even 20 seconds is plenty of time, theres shouldnt be any delay because after the point you wipe yourself with a towel, and get back in the game, several ball bounces are unneccesary.

They should think that the rule is important, imagine playing a point RIGHT after youve finished one, then try playing a point 20-30 seconds later. You will feel the difference.

ronalditop
01-07-2009, 03:28 PM
To me their time wasting tactics and rituals make the game extremely boring. KK mencioned how boring is sharapova to watch, and i agree. seriusly, watching her doing the same ritual when serving is so irritating to me, i cant imagine how much is it for the person she's playing against. and in the guys side, djoker with his never ending ball bouncing and nadal with his delay to serve make points extremely long and boring.

vmosrafa08
01-07-2009, 03:33 PM
Players have a right to take a break between points...They can rest, and annoy the other player. I think that Djokovic can bounce a tennis ball as many times as he wants.

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 03:36 PM
Nobody's really fun to watch between points.You must be female.

I'll watch Ivanovic or Kournikova towel-off, drink water, tie their shoes or balance their checkbooks.

- KK

jstr
01-07-2009, 03:40 PM
Maybe they should give 60 secs. between points, then there could be a Gillette commercial ....

ThA_Azn_DeViL
01-07-2009, 03:44 PM
Maybe they should give 60 secs. between points, then there could be a Gillette commercial ....

After every single point, that would bring a lot of sponsers, and zip tv watchers.

edmondsm
01-07-2009, 03:44 PM
I've timed him too several times because of those wild accusations

Wild accusations? Come on be reasonable, Nadal takes alot of time between points and definitely goes over 20 seconds on most points.

veroniquem
01-07-2009, 05:00 PM
I don't get the Tennis Channel. Carry on.

Also, one match isn't a good sample. I've measured him in dozens of matches. The charge is accurate.

- KK
Ha ha you're getting scared already? If you need to inspect 12 matches to find that dreadful offense, I don't think I'm gonna take the accusation too seriously...

veroniquem
01-07-2009, 05:01 PM
Wild accusations? Come on be reasonable, Nadal takes alot of time between points and definitely goes over 20 seconds on most points.
Over 20 seconds is not a wild accusation, over 35 definitely is.

veroniquem
01-07-2009, 05:02 PM
Maybe they should give 60 secs. between points, then there could be a Gillette commercial ....
Or a deodorant commercial...

edmondsm
01-07-2009, 05:50 PM
Over 20 seconds is not a wild accusation, over 35 definitely is.

Well I just watched some of the Wimbledon final and some of the Abu Dabi match against Murray and Nadal is always over 20 seconds, usually around 30, and at times well over 35 seconds.

veroniquem
01-07-2009, 05:53 PM
Well I just watched some of the Wimbledon final and some of the Abu Dabi match against Murray and Nadal is always over 20 seconds, usually around 30, and at times well over 35 seconds.
Oh right, at least you're not claiming that he is CONSISTENTLY OVER 35 SECONDS. I guess we're making progress...

Morrissey
01-07-2009, 06:05 PM
You must be female.

I'll watch Ivanovic or Kournikova towel-off, drink water, tie their shoes or balance their checkbooks.

- KK

You must not watch real tennis since you watch womenīs tennis.

edmondsm
01-07-2009, 06:09 PM
Oh right, at least you're not claiming that he is CONSISTENTLY OVER 35 SECONDS. I guess we're making progress...

No I'm not saying that. But I think the evidence presented is clear that Nadal breaks the rule on many many points. I just watched a little of Federer and Murray and they take between 10-15 seconds between service points.

FD3S
01-07-2009, 06:14 PM
Ha ha you're getting scared already? If you need to inspect 12 matches to find that dreadful offense, I don't think I'm gonna take the accusation too seriously...

Okay, sorry for interrupting, but this *really* bugs me, b/c the two possibilities I see are:

A: He doesn't find enough instances, which = "Oh, he never does it and everyone's exaggerating!"

B, which is what happened: "Oh, you had to look through so more than (insert arbitrary number of matches) to find your proof? I don't have any reason to take your accusations seriously, then."

Is that actually the logic that's being brought to the table? Lord.

Kaptain Karl
01-07-2009, 06:18 PM
Oh right, at least you're not claiming that he is CONSISTENTLY OVER 35 SECONDS. I guess we're making progress...You are attempting to cloud the issue by splitting definitional hairs. One of the synonyms of "consistently" is "persistently". I'll stick with the charge of consistently exceeding 35 seconds.

Why are you so defensive about something which is so clearly measurable?

- KK

miniRafa386
01-07-2009, 06:22 PM
i really dont think nadal is purposly trying to take a long time between points, he always has been so i think its just his rhythm. on the other hand, djokovic is sometimes under the allowed time, but in some tight situations, he will take more than enough time.

rommil
01-07-2009, 07:49 PM
i really dont think nadal is purposly trying to take a long time between points, he always has been so i think its just his rhythm. on the other hand, djokovic is sometimes under the allowed time, but in some tight situations, he will take more than enough time.

Rhythm is ok as long as you don't go over the alloted time. Also, some pros get winded from a point and need a bit of a time to recover sometimes then so be it. But if you are taking a long time consistently because you have to fix your socks, shorts, underwear, head band, hair then bounce the ball incessantly before serving is another thing. I really don't think Nadal is doing this for gamesmanship, it's his OCD. Either way, he should be more aware of it and try to curb it or not be slighted if called on it.

woodrow1029
01-07-2009, 09:16 PM
I've been trying to find the data, but so far I haven't had much luck, but I do believe that when Cash was playing the rule was 30 seconds. That means that the time he took between serves was fine. Some years ago there as a push to speed up the time it took to play a match, and changing the time limit to serve was one of the initiatives taken to bring that about.

The facts:

-- According to the rule, the current time limit is 20 seconds, and there are players who routinely violate the rule.

-- By in large the rule isn't supported by the ATP, thus it's not enforced by the umpires (consistently).

-- If the day comes that the rule is aggressively enforced, the violators will change their routine.

It's really that simple lol.

In the meantime, here's an interesting article that to some degree is relevent to this thread: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/sports/tennis/21tennis.html
The rule for ATP is 25 seconds. ITF and WTA is 20 seconds. Nadal and Djok still take too much time, just a minor correction on the rule.

Jet Rink
01-07-2009, 09:26 PM
I'm late to the thread but yes - Nadal and Joke-Ovich are the worst when it comes to delays. It definitely affects play and is outside the rules.

Jet

the Artist
01-07-2009, 09:45 PM
As a lot of the posters already said - it is the upire who needs to enforce the rules.

I agree that both Nadal and Djoker can take rediculously long between points - to such an degree that I view it as gamemanship, but if the umpire doesn't feel like enforcing the rules then it will just carry on and on and on and on and.......

RCizzle65
01-07-2009, 10:27 PM
Djokovic has been reducing his ball bouncing as of recently, but Nadal....I was watching the Queens match he had with Nishikori, whenever it was Nadal's serve, I would fast forward like 30 seconds after each of Nadal's points were over and I would be fine and not miss any action.

tacou
01-07-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm late to the thread but yes - Nadal and Joke-Ovich are the worst when it comes to delays. It definitely affects play and is outside the rules.

Jet

no one has really explained to me how it effects play at all. I was always taught that the game was played at the server's pace.

COPEY
01-07-2009, 10:52 PM
The rule for ATP is 25 seconds. ITF and WTA is 20 seconds... just a minor correction on the rule.

Ah, was unaware of that - thanks!

Love Game
01-07-2009, 11:24 PM
not this old, old debate again.

let pat cash show us all his buzzer concept and demonstrate, by going to atp tournaments for 3 months, his timing device.

i'm guessing we'd all see how totally unable pat cash will be to put his money where his mouth is, but he should have himself video taped as he does this, demonstrating in particular how he would make it all fair by beginning the timer at precisely the same moment for each player after each point.

telling other people to do X is child's play compared to actually doing X one's self.

tacou
01-07-2009, 11:31 PM
your logic is sound and your variables are flawless.

abmk
01-07-2009, 11:32 PM
Its upto the umpires to enforce the rules.

veroniquem
01-08-2009, 12:23 AM
not this old, old debate again.

let pat cash show us all his buzzer concept and demonstrate, by going to atp tournaments for 3 months, his timing device.

i'm guessing we'd all see how totally unable pat cash will be to put his money where his mouth is, but he should have himself video taped as he does this, demonstrating in particular how he would make it all fair by beginning the timer at precisely the same moment for each player after each point.

telling other people to do X is child's play compared to actually doing X one's self.
I was thinking about that also, when exactly do you start the buzzer? Especially when there is a lot of clapping from the audience, it seems obvious to me that you need a little bit of leeway in those matters.

vtmike
01-08-2009, 03:34 AM
I was thinking about that also, when exactly do you start the buzzer? Especially when there is a lot of clapping from the audience, it seems obvious to me that you need a little bit of leeway in those matters.

The buzzer is a stupid idea, but apart from tht everything he said is true.....Nadal and Djokovic do waste a lot of time and most of the time they do it intentionally to offset their opponents......

It is upto ATP to prevent them from abusing the rule and take strict action....and it is also upto the players themselves to judge what is right and what is not (so in this case either their judgement is bad or they just want to continue to cheat and play mind games)

ninman
01-08-2009, 03:38 AM
I know, it's clear he has 0 evidence to back up his claim, he thinks we're gonna take his word for it (ha ha)

Oh please, there are numerous videos of Nadal taking way over the 20 second mark between points on youtube. He's definitely much slower on clay btw than any other surface, because he also has that routine of sweeping the baseline before serving.

How about you time him today when he plays his match? In fact time Andy Murray, Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal today and then you'll get the full picture.

Kaptain Karl
01-08-2009, 05:38 AM
Last year P-Mac and Carillo even had their own little "game" of counting the seconds beyond 25 on Nadal's delays. (I can't be the only one who remembers this.)

Some Producer(s) must have told them to stop, because they -- somewhat abruptly -- didn't do it anymore. To me the (sudden) absence of their comments actually highlighted the time violations almost as much as their "countdowns" had.

- KK

ninman
01-08-2009, 06:11 AM
Last year P-Mac and Carillo even had their own little "game" of counting the seconds beyond 25 on Nadal's delays. (I can't be the only one who remembers this.)

Some Producer(s) must have told them to stop, because they -- somewhat abruptly -- didn't do it anymore. To me the (sudden) absence of their comments actually highlighted the time violations almost as much as their "countdowns" had.

- KK

It would be great if you had some videos or something of this. I should say that the match I remember which was the worst as far as delaying tactics is concerned would be Michael Chang against Ivan Lendll at the French Open.

crazylevity
01-08-2009, 06:18 AM
I was thinking about that also, when exactly do you start the buzzer? Especially when there is a lot of clapping from the audience, it seems obvious to me that you need a little bit of leeway in those matters.

Not that I think Cash's idea is tenable, but it could start from the time the umpire calls the score. The umpire would obviously take into account if there's a lot of applause, and call the score only after it stops.

rommil
01-08-2009, 06:42 AM
I was thinking about that also, when exactly do you start the buzzer? Especially when there is a lot of clapping from the audience, it seems obvious to me that you need a little bit of leeway in those matters.

Audience clapping is fine and part of the game. Nadal's obsessive behavior of fixing his socks, shorts/underwear, hair then dribble dribble needs to be curbed. Lining up his Evians are fine since I don't feel it affects play.

Kaptain Karl
01-08-2009, 06:53 AM
no one has really explained to me how it effects play at all.Delays throw off the rhythm of the game. Sometimes it's mere "gamesmanship" (like Llendl, who'd stop to pick at his eyelashes from time to time). Sometimes is a pattern or habit of simply violating the rule (Nadal, Djoker, Shriekapova, Pierce, etc.)

If you don't get how this impacts play, I can't help you.


I was always taught that the game was played at the server's pace.Yes. Within reason.

Have you ever played someone who "quick served" you to catch you off guard. If you apply the "Server's pace" rule, quick serving would not be a dirty tactic.

Sloooooowww serving is also a detriment to the game.

______________

The curious aspect of Nadal's delays are ... he's probably the most fit player on the Tour. If he's winded, his opponent must be seriously gassed. I'd think it would be to Nadal's advantage to keep the pace of play UP.

Agassi was probably the most impatient ATP player. I think he hurried for just the reason I expressed above. He knew he was more fit than the other guys, so he used it to his advantage. I remember Agassi prompting a slow play warning on Nadal early in a match. Nadal didn't get another delay called on him fo the next three sets.

My point is, Nadal *is able* to reduce his time-wasting. So why doesn't he just play the game...?

Djoker's ball bouncing varies with the importance of the point ... most of the time. I actually think he'd have a tougher time adapting to the rule than Nadal. (I think Djoker's ball bouncing is something he may not be as *aware* of. I also could be really wrong....)




It would be great if you had some videos or something of this.Sorry. I don't record Pro matches.

(I've never even seen the whole Borg-Mac Wimby Final of 1980. I was overseas then and missed it.) Knowing who won takes too much of the interest away....

- KK

Love Game
01-08-2009, 08:06 AM
How about you time him today when he plays his match? In fact time Andy Murray, Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal today and then you'll get the full picture.

Okay. I will. I'll go out and buy a stopwatch.

Of course, it will only be a fair test if I time all his opponents as well. In fact, it would only be fair if I would time every player in the tournament, but I would wait until the round of 16 or the QF to start the time on the top players.

Now I need to know exactly when to push the timer button (keeping in mind that it has to be the same moment for each and every player)???

Thx.

veritech
01-08-2009, 08:10 AM
Okay. I will. I'll go out and buy a stopwatch.

Of course, it will only be a fair test if I time all his opponents as well. In fact, it would only be fair if I would time every player in the tournament, but I would wait until the round of 16 or the QF to start the time on the top players.

Now I need to know exactly when to push the timer button (keeping in mind that it has to be the same moment for each and every player)???

Thx.

the 20 seconds begins once the umpire says the score.

vive le beau jeu !
01-08-2009, 08:14 AM
Okay. I will. I'll go out and buy a stopwatch.

Of course, it will only be a fair test if I time all his opponents as well. In fact, it would only be fair if I would time every player in the tournament, but I would wait until the round of 16 or the QF to start the time on the top players.

Now I need to know exactly when to push the timer button (keeping in mind that it has to be the same moment for each and every player)???

Thx.

the 20 seconds begins once the umpire says the score.
i think in theory it doesn't depend on the umpire saying the score... time between points starts once the ball goes out of play, until the ball is hit on the next serve.

woodrow1029
01-08-2009, 09:05 AM
i think in theory it doesn't depend on the umpire saying the score... time between points starts once the ball goes out of play, until the ball is hit on the next serve.
One important thing to remember here is that not everyone is going to be issued a time violation every time they take longer than they are allowed.

Another issue is that for ATP events, the time limit is 25 seconds, not 20.

The 20 second time limit applies to ITF, Grand Slam and WTA tournaments.

The Time Limit is not in the "Rules of Tennis." It is a guideline that varies by organization. There are a lot of times where the crowd noise will make it very difficult for play to continue in 20 seconds. Another issue is after a long long point. We don't expect the players to go right back to the line and play the next point.

If it were a rule that were going to be enforced every time, then most times when a player breaks a string and has to go to their bag and change rackets, a time violation would most of the time need to be issued. Changing rackets is not a situation that is technically allowed extra time.

A lot of times when a player's shoe comes untied, it will take them longer than 20 or 25 seconds to play the next point.

The time violations are to be used when players are WASTING TIME. Standing back at the back of the court, standing on the service line while nothing is holding them up. This is why players don't get a time violation the first, second and third times they go over their time. There needs to be a pattern.

And lastly, the clock stops as soon as the ball is out of play.

tacou
01-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Delays throw off the rhythm of the game. Sometimes it's mere "gamesmanship" (like Llendl, who'd stop to pick at his eyelashes from time to time). Sometimes is a pattern or habit of simply violating the rule (Nadal, Djoker, Shriekapova, Pierce, etc.)

If you don't get how this impacts play, I can't help you.



You really think 3 hours into a match Roger Federer loses his rhythm because Rafa takes 25 seconds instead of 20?

I watched Jarrko play Baghdatis in Brisbane a few days ago andfor a few games Jarrko was only waiting about 8 seconds between points, something I found much more distracting/detrimental than Nadal's five seconds of overage.

woodrow1029
01-08-2009, 10:23 AM
You really think 3 hours into a match Roger Federer loses his rhythm because Rafa takes 25 seconds instead of 20?

I watched Jarrko play Baghdatis in Brisbane a few days ago andfor a few games Jarrko was only waiting about 8 seconds between points, something I found much more distracting/detrimental than Nadal's five seconds of overage.
But what was Baghdatis' reaction? Was he ready to receive? Did he complain about it at all?

Nadal takes too much time from the first game. He doesn't start 3 hours into the match.

pmata814
01-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Was it Cash who had a reputation for catching his toss and then saying "sorry mate" and starting his routine again? Or was that Rafter?

oranges
01-08-2009, 11:11 AM
Was it Cash who had a reputation for catching his toss and then saying "sorry mate" and starting his routine again? Or was that Rafter?

It was Rafter and if you were attempting to imply gamesmanship and stalling tactics, it's an epic fail of Titanic-like proportions. Aside from Edberg, I'm not sure you can find a player who's more an epitome of a true sportsman and gentleman.

Kaptain Karl
01-08-2009, 11:25 AM
You really think 3 hours into a match Roger Federer loses his rhythm because Rafa takes 25 seconds instead of 20?NWIP

I watched Jarrko play Baghdatis in Brisbane a few days ago andfor a few games Jarrko was only waiting about 8 seconds between points, something I found much more distracting/detrimental than Nadal's five seconds of overage.Agassi was like that. You should play at the Server's pace ... unless he's being a dope about it. If Baghy wasn't complaining he was being rushed ... no problem.

- KK

Love Game
01-08-2009, 11:32 AM
the 20 seconds begins once the umpire says the score.

i think in theory it doesn't depend on the umpire saying the score... time between points starts once the ball goes out of play, until the ball is hit on the next serve.

One important thing to remember here is that not everyone is going to be issued a time violation every time they take longer than they are allowed.

Another issue is that for ATP events, the time limit is 25 seconds, not 20.

The 20 second time limit applies to ITF, Grand Slam and WTA tournaments.

The Time Limit is not in the "Rules of Tennis." It is a guideline that varies by organization. There are a lot of times where the crowd noise will make it very difficult for play to continue in 20 seconds. Another issue is after a long long point. We don't expect the players to go right back to the line and play the next point.

If it were a rule that were going to be enforced every time, then most times when a player breaks a string and has to go to their bag and change rackets, a time violation would most of the time need to be issued. Changing rackets is not a situation that is technically allowed extra time.

A lot of times when a player's shoe comes untied, it will take them longer than 20 or 25 seconds to play the next point.

The time violations are to be used when players are WASTING TIME. Standing back at the back of the court, standing on the service line while nothing is holding them up. This is why players don't get a time violation the first, second and third times they go over their time. There needs to be a pattern.

And lastly, the clock stops as soon as the ball is out of play.

All good points.
Obviously, the experiment w/b complicated.

It's more straightforward if the calling of the play by the umpire is used as the starting point to click the stopwatch.

Is it possible that, if you had 10 certified umpires watching a game on a TV * in a room where they were unable to see or hear each other * from the POV of a camera mounted on the umpire chair * and they had to do their regular duties of registering the score, keeping track of challenges, etc., that they might not all click the stopwatch at the same time?

tacou
01-08-2009, 11:46 AM
NWIP

Agassi was like that. You should play at the Server's pace ... unless he's being a dope about it. If Baghy wasn't complaining he was being rushed ... no problem.


that's pretty objective. I wasn't criticizing Jarrko, I'm saying what's the difference between a quick server and a slow server?

according to the rules a server can serve 4 seconds after the point, but I'm sure everyone would agree that's bad gamesmanship. but it's well within the rules.

the fact is, Marcos didn't complain about the pace being quick and Nadal's opponents don't complain about Nadal until after the fact. we can argue about this for another 30 pages but unless an umpire starts enforcing or an opponent complains about it in the match (and in turn the ump enforces it) it will continue. I'm just saying the 5 extra seconds don't bother me.

tacou
01-08-2009, 11:47 AM
Nadal takes too much time from the first game. He doesn't start 3 hours into the match.


I realize that, I was trying to make the point that I don't think professional players can be taken out of a match because their opponent takes a few extra seconds.

woodrow1029
01-08-2009, 12:23 PM
I realize that, I was trying to make the point that I don't think professional players can be taken out of a match because their opponent takes a few extra seconds.
It's not a few extra seconds. A lot of times he is between 35-40 seconds. That CAN be disruptive to the receiver. The players do complain to the umpires. The umpires have been issuing time violations to Nadal. Then as soon as he does, many of the same people that tell the umps they need to enforce it, come back and say that he shouldn't have received a time violation.

To Nadal's credit, He is VERY fair as far as playing to the server's pace when he is the receiver, and I think that that is more important.

tacou
01-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I've seen all of Nadal's televised matches since 06 plus many more and I've only seen him issued time violations 3-5 times, and in fact that constitutes about half of the violations I've seen given to ALL players. I've never seen him take 40 seconds, I'm sure of that.

but anyways, I'm kindly bowing out of this thread as I've expressed my opinion and like I said, until ATP starts taking control of it, it will continue on as it does now.

good day folks

TheTruth
01-08-2009, 01:13 PM
no one has really explained to me how it effects play at all. I was always taught that the game was played at the server's pace.

Because it doesn't affect play. After those long rallies their opponents are glad for the extra five seconds (at times). I've been watching tennis a long time and the 20 second rule was never a problem. I'm curious as to why it's such a major problem now.

TheTruth
01-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Okay. I will. I'll go out and buy a stopwatch.

Of course, it will only be a fair test if I time all his opponents as well. In fact, it would only be fair if I would time every player in the tournament, but I would wait until the round of 16 or the QF to start the time on the top players.

Now I need to know exactly when to push the timer button (keeping in mind that it has to be the same moment for each and every player)???

Thx.

That would be funny! I've timed them before as well. Didn't come up with the consensus of this board.

tacou
01-08-2009, 02:43 PM
just watched tsonga/nadal from AO08, I only counted once but at 8 seconds Nadal was at the service line and about 3 seconds later he served.
8+3= over 20!!! death to rafa!

ronalditop
01-08-2009, 03:06 PM
nadal doesnt do his time-wasting tactic on every match, only on the hard ones, at moments when he's about to be broken or something like that.

woodrow1029
01-08-2009, 03:14 PM
just watched tsonga/nadal from AO08, I only counted once but at 8 seconds Nadal was at the service line and about 3 seconds later he served.
8+3= over 20!!! death to rafa!
You counted once what? When are you starting the clock?

beckham
01-08-2009, 03:18 PM
They may deserve a slightly longer break at the end of a particularly long rally...give it a rest...you try and haul your bum around and then only rest for 20 seconds.:evil:

woodrow1029
01-08-2009, 03:21 PM
They may deserve a slightly longer break at the end of a particularly long rally...give it a rest...you try and haul your bum around and then only rest for 20 seconds.:evil:
Which is why the time limit is not a rule. It's a guideline. After a long rally, or when the crowd is loud, they do get more time. But the time wasting is when the time limits are/need to be enforced.

tacou
01-08-2009, 04:05 PM
You counted once what? When are you starting the clock?

5th or 6th game of the first set, right when the ump called "15-30" (which was about a second after the ball was actually dead) I started counting. I meant I only counted ONE time, and he just happened to be well under 20 this time.

And if it makes any difference he was down a break, on the verge of (and eventually WAS) a second break.

Toxicmilk
01-08-2009, 04:14 PM
Because it doesn't affect play. After those long rallies their opponents are glad for the extra five seconds (at times). I've been watching tennis a long time and the 20 second rule was never a problem. I'm curious as to why it's such a major problem now.

It does affect play, it takes a lot to keep concentration. And a long wait doesn't help with that.

Players get a small break on change overs. They should be ready to play rally after rally.

beckham
01-08-2009, 04:24 PM
Which is why the time limit is not a rule. It's a guideline. After a long rally, or when the crowd is loud, they do get more time. But the time wasting is when the time limits are/need to be enforced.

I know woodrow...I was just supplying my opinion if someone wants to enforce it everytime.Again its a guideline, and if they take a bit more time they deserve it.

SempreSami
01-08-2009, 05:03 PM
He might've finished the Wimbledon final in straight sets had he not been slow between points :roll:

Love Game
01-08-2009, 05:07 PM
You counted once what? When are you starting the clock?

Is it likely that, if you had 10 certified umpires watching the same match on a TV
* in a room where they were unable to see or hear each other
* from the POV of a camera mounted on the umpire chair
* and they had to do their regular duties of registering the score, keeping track of challenges, etc.,
* that they might not all click the stopwatch at the same moment to begin counting?

tacou
01-08-2009, 05:12 PM
^^ I think he was referring to my count Love Game, but you make valid points.

Love Game
01-10-2009, 02:47 PM
^^ I think he was referring to my count Love Game, but you make valid points.

thanks for that clarification! :)
I was just wondering whether pat cash's big demand, naming some names and not others, is actually feasible?

I suspect it isn't simply because there are too many variables, including the differences among the umpires who actually would be responsible for doing the timing with actual stopwatches (which is the only way to accurately measure seconds for the purpose of assessing penalties).

and it would only be fair if an umpire timed each player after each point, because otherwise the player being penalized could charge favoritism.

pat cash, if not paid by some of those
he didnt name, is just promoting himself http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/F/0/206p.gif

Blade0324
01-11-2009, 01:26 PM
THis has been an exhaustive thread to read. But ultimately I have to say that Cash can say whatever he wants but it's really not his call or for him to decide. I have seen that many players take a good deal of time between points. I personally find it much more enjoyable to watch

Gorecki
01-11-2009, 01:42 PM
Was it Cash who had a reputation for catching his toss and then saying "sorry mate" and starting his routine again? Or was that Rafter?

Rafter, the man who gave a substantial part of his USO prize money to charity? yaeh.. what a cheater! This could be the fail of the year post!

flyer
01-12-2009, 06:38 AM
Well, he has a lot more right and authority than anyone on this board.

right maybe

authority no, hes got no more official "authority" than i do

but we aren't generating news stories

Love Game
01-12-2009, 07:19 AM
right maybe

authority no, hes got no more official "authority" than i do

but we aren't generating news stories

OTOH, the corporate giants for whom federer represents their brands ........ they DO generate "news" stories! :razz:

coloskier
01-12-2009, 08:00 AM
They may deserve a slightly longer break at the end of a particularly long rally...give it a rest...you try and haul your bum around and then only rest for 20 seconds.:evil:

If they can't be ready after a 20 second rest, then maybe they should try to end the point sooner next time.

edmondsm
01-12-2009, 08:08 AM
Honestly, players get to sit down and rest every two games. Tennis is not very demanding cardio wise. Go get the new balls and get on with it.

Tempyst
01-12-2009, 12:27 PM
You break the rules, you break the rules. The rule says 20 seconds, so stay within that limit or else you're not playing legitimate tennis.

tacou
01-12-2009, 12:33 PM
enforce the rules or you're getting paid to sit in a high chair and keep score.

Gorecki
01-12-2009, 01:10 PM
They may deserve a slightly longer break at the end of a particularly long rally...give it a rest...you try and haul your bum around and then only rest for 20 seconds.:evil:

no other racquet sport in the worlds has that bs time wasting tactics. none... i wonder how they put up with it!

Blade0324
01-13-2009, 07:10 AM
Slower courts, longer time between points, maximize change over time etc. all lead to longer televised events and thus more money for the networks, ATP etc. This is not why the players take more time but the ATP doesn't want them to change as long and the money is rolling in. I personally like to watch a slower pace and play a slower pace as well. Not out of need but because it is more comfortable. Even if I don't need to towel off after a point I will still take as much time as possible before serving.

drakulie
01-13-2009, 07:13 AM
^^^bLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

If this were the case, then the WTA would have 5 set matches.

flyer
01-13-2009, 07:40 AM
OTOH, the corporate giants for whom federer represents their brands ........ they DO generate "news" stories! :razz:

what!? im talking about pat cash....

ESP#1
01-13-2009, 07:55 AM
I think Cash is still holding resentment for losing to Nadal when Nadal was 14, if their really was a problem
A. the opponent would complain
B. the fans at the game would complain
C. the umps would enforce the rules
D. the sponsors would have the atp enforce the rule

The real question is... What do people care less about? This issue or Pat Cash?

flyer
01-13-2009, 07:58 AM
I think Cash is still holding resentment for losing to Nadal when Nadal was 14, if their really was a problem
A. the opponent would complain
B. the fans at the game would complain
C. the umps would enforce the rules
D. the sponsors would have the atp enforce the rule

The real question is... What do people care less about? This issue or Pat Cash?

thank youuuuu

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 08:05 AM
I think Cash is still holding resentment for losing to Nadal when Nadal was 14, if their really was a problem
A. the opponent would complain
B. the fans at the game would complain
C. the umps would enforce the rules
D. the sponsors would have the atp enforce the rule

The real question is... What do people care less about? This issue or Pat Cash?



A and B happen often, C not so much (unless it's Pascal Maria or Steve Ulrich).

Love Game
01-13-2009, 08:37 AM
^^^bLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

If this were the case, then the WTA would have 5 set matches.

5 setters are only at the GS, aren't they?
i don't think anybody wants that, do you?

on best-of-three matches it seems to me that the women's matches go to 3 hours more frequently than do the men's, no?

Love Game
01-13-2009, 08:40 AM
I think Cash is still holding resentment for losing to Nadal when Nadal was 14, if their really was a problem
A. the opponent would complain
B. the fans at the game would complain
C. the umps would enforce the rules
D. the sponsors would have the atp enforce the rule

The real question is... What do people care less about? This issue or Pat Cash?

hahaha ... i didn't know about that! :D
pat cash is just piling on.
he needs to shut his pie hole.

seffina
01-13-2009, 08:50 AM
5 setters are only at the GS, aren't they?
i don't think anybody wants that, do you?

on best-of-three matches it seems to me that the women's matches go to 3 hours more frequently than do the men's, no?
I think all men's masters finals should be five sets.

drakulie
01-13-2009, 08:59 AM
on best-of-three matches it seems to me that the women's matches go to 3 hours more frequently than do the men's, no?

That's because of all the bathroom breaks they take.

Point is>>> Umpires need to start enorcing rules>>> without prejudice and violently.

Yes, this includes your beloved, Nadal who is one of the main culprits.

Rabbit
01-13-2009, 09:12 AM
This journeymans interview gets 10 pages? lmao


Journeyman? Anyone who wins a Grand Slam and makes the finals of two more losing in 5 sets in each is hardly a journeyman. This is the same guy who had Lendl beat at the US Open and lost in 5 on arguably the most famous day, certainly in US Open history, commonly referred to as "The Day of Tennis".

With regard to Cash's comments, I'm all for it. Cash also said he got away with as much as he could during his tenure as a world class professional, but that doesn't make it right. The fact is, it's just gotten worse. In watching some of the older matches, on change overs players didn't sit down, didn't have towels waiting at the end of the court, and drank water out of glasses....how novel! (The ATP & WTA should go green and mean it...make the players drink water out of glasses....stop the land fill.)

The easy solution is to have a game clock, kinda like football. Whenever the umpire updates the score, the game clock starts no ifs and or buts. The only thing that can stop the clock is an injury time out or one of the allotted challenges.

If, after the allotted time, the player hasn't struck his first serve attempt, a buzzer would go off and the chair would have no option other than to penalize the offending player according to the rules. Right now, some players get away with murder and gamesmanship certainly follows. Most players play by the rules, but there are some like Nads who think they're above the rules set forth.

srinrajesh
01-13-2009, 09:14 AM
The time has been reduced from the past when it was 30 seconds or more. This change is for the worse as the rallies have become longer now because of the quality of groundshots. Earlier with serve and volley players it could have been 25 seconds. I believe also that the smaller ATP events should have lower time limit of 20 seconds rather than grand slams. If not, it should be uniform so that the players are at ease. The quality of play would also increase when the time limit is increased.

Nadal doesnt appear to me to take much more time than others. Wonder if there are average point time stats available. Maybe it is because of his routine and him being the worlds top player, we notice it more and also because his matches are among the most watched. Djokovic does appear to take up more time for recovery between longer rallies.

If we need to take action agaisnt players, there should be a timer so that it should be easily viewable by the players and they can increase their speed if required. This could be monitored by other referees and brought to attention of main umpire. We should remove bias from this.

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 09:23 AM
For those who believe Nadal does not take more time than other players, here's proof.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcShWPiUk38


Umpire calls score and changes it at around 1:54. Nadal does not serve until about 2:24. That's 30 seconds, 10 seconds over the mark. I was being generous too.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5U8gDeBl_w


Here's more, down triple break point, at 4:06 the score is called. He does not serve until 4:40. That's a MASSIVE delay.

edmondsm
01-13-2009, 09:37 AM
For those who believe Nadal does not take more time than other players, here's proof.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcShWPiUk38


Umpire calls score and changes it at around 1:54. Nadal does not serve until about 2:24. That's 30 seconds, 10 seconds over the mark. I was being generous too.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5U8gDeBl_w


Here's more, down triple break point, at 4:06 the score is called. He does not serve until 4:40. That's a MASSIVE delay.


It's not even when the score is called, the clock is supposed to start ticking at the end of the previous point. So tack another 5 seconds on to each of Nadal's time violations.

dpfrazier
01-13-2009, 09:40 AM
For those who believe Nadal does not take more time than other players, here's proof.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcShWPiUk38


Umpire calls score and changes it at around 1:54. Nadal does not serve until about 2:24. That's 30 seconds, 10 seconds over the mark. I was being generous too.
Next point was about 30 seconds as well (scored called at 2:35, Nadal served at 3:05).

In general, I think this extra delay is caused by two things that nobody used to do: towel off after every point, and pick out the best two balls after being fed three or four from the ball kids.

Reminds me of baseball, where the batter used to stay in the box after each pitch. Now they step out after every pitch, re-velcro each glove, adjust their cup, etc., and the game drags on...

At least one once-common between-point ritual is becoming much more rare - the straightening of strings. Thank you, poly! Imagine how long Nadal would take if he also had to fix his stringbed after every point...

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 09:43 AM
It's not even when the score is called, the clock is supposed to start ticking at the end of the previous point. So tack another 5 seconds on to each of Nadal's time violations.



Well, I did say I was being generous.

drakulie
01-13-2009, 09:45 AM
Journeyman? Anyone who wins a Grand Slam and makes the finals of two more losing in 5 sets in each is hardly a journeyman. This is the same guy who had Lendl beat at the US Open and lost in 5 on arguably the most famous day, certainly in US Open history, commonly referred to as "The Day of Tennis".

With regard to Cash's comments, I'm all for it. Cash also said he got away with as much as he could during his tenure as a world class professional, but that doesn't make it right. The fact is, it's just gotten worse. In watching some of the older matches, on change overs players didn't sit down, didn't have towels waiting at the end of the court, and drank water out of glasses....how novel! (The ATP & WTA should go green and mean it...make the players drink water out of glasses....stop the land fill.)

The easy solution is to have a game clock, kinda like football. Whenever the umpire updates the score, the game clock starts no ifs and or buts. The only thing that can stop the clock is an injury time out or one of the allotted challenges.

If, after the allotted time, the player hasn't struck his first serve attempt, a buzzer would go off and the chair would have no option other than to penalize the offending player according to the rules. Right now, some players get away with murder and gamesmanship certainly follows. Most players play by the rules, but there are some like Nads who think they're above the rules set forth.

Excellent post. And I agree they should put a game clock. Since the Umps don't have what it takes and/or don't want to enforce the rules, this takes them out of the equation. Period.

And as for Cash>> it is obvious this tool (Nadal_Freak) knows nothing. Guy was an awesome, and very fun player to watch.

ksbh
01-13-2009, 09:48 AM
The only thing that Cash shares in common with Rafter is the first name. Pat Rafter was a gentleman and the epitome of sportsmanship. Pat Cash shouldn't be allowed to tie Rafter's shoe laces, if his life depended on it!

Was it Cash who had a reputation for catching his toss and then saying "sorry mate" and starting his routine again? Or was that Rafter?

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 09:49 AM
Excellent post. And I agree they should put a game clock. Since the Umps don't have what it takes and/or don't want to enforce the rules, this takes them out of the equation. Period.

And as for Cash>> it is obvious this tool (Nadal_Freak) knows nothing. Guy was an awesome, and very fun player to watch.



If they did put a gameclock, I'd say increase it to 30 seconds. That way, you have plenty of time to do whatever you want, and anything over that means you are just wasting time.

edmondsm
01-13-2009, 09:54 AM
Maybe they could use a format like they do with chess. You have a certain amount of cumulative time that you can use between points. After you use it up, everytime you go over 20 sec you get a code violation.

ESP#1
01-13-2009, 09:54 AM
The i idea of a time clock is absurd, it makes sense in sports that have time limits but in tennis its not needed, if the atp puts pressure on the umps (who really dont have much to do these days since they established the challenge system) we can solve the prob without adding any more gizmos, i really dont think its that big an issue

drakulie
01-13-2009, 09:59 AM
The i idea of a time clock is absurd, it makes sense in sports that have time limits but in tennis its not needed,

Tennis **DOES** have time limits. There are rules established that specifically state how long you have before starting the point. Problem is, the chair umps are not enforcing it. Imagine if they begin deciding to not enforce foot faults???

It's a rule, and either needs to be enforced, or done away with. The game clock idea would kill two birds with one stone.

1. It would enforce the rule>>>> without prejudice.

2. Allow the umps to still be "the nice guy", since they won't have a say in the matter.

tacou
01-13-2009, 10:08 AM
2. Allow the umps to still be "the nice guy", since they won't have a say in the matter.

this is the part of this argument (and by this, I mean the entire thread) I don't understand.

The time between points limit is a RULE. it is the chair umpires job to enforce the RULES. like a poster above me said, the chair umps don't do much these days. if they don't enforce it, it does not become the players responsibility to do so.

it doesn't bother me when players go over the time limit, but it certainly wouldn't bother me if when they did they were issued a time violation. it's the rule after all, but again-- it's the chair umpires job to enforce the rules, so do it!

dpfrazier
01-13-2009, 10:11 AM
Tennis **DOES** have time limits. There are rules established that specifically state how long you have before starting the point. Problem is, the chair umps are not enforcing it. Imagine if they begin deciding to not enforce foot faults???

It's a rule, and either needs to be enforced, or done away with. The game clock idea would kill two birds with one stone.

1. It would enforce the rule>>>> without prejudice.

2. Allow the umps to still be "the nice guy", since they won't have a say in the matter.
Perhaps only start using the game clock in a match if one of the players starts going over the allotted time. Kind of like in golf - they get "put on the clock" only if they fall behind the group in front of them.

As long as we're tossing out ideas... perhaps give each player a few time-outs per set to use if they get gassed after a long point. Of course, this would only be used in conjunction with a strictly-enforced game clock...

seffina
01-13-2009, 10:37 AM
I think a game clock is silly. Not all points are created equal in tennis. The applause after a long rally to save a break point is not the same as an ace to start the match.

Rules should be enforced, but tennis isn't like football (American) that there should be a game clock. Most of those games are played on the clock. Meaning that you have 60 minutes of playing time for a football game. Same for hockey, basketball, etc. That's why those sports have a time factor in between plays. Tennis doesn't work on a fixed time, rather on points. The points are fixed not the time. It's just not comparable.

The umps should enforce them more to curtail excessive time wasting, but it just can't be a fixed system because the sport of tennis doesn't work that way.

Love Game
01-13-2009, 10:50 AM
(The ATP & WTA should go green and mean it...make the players drink water out of glasses....stop the land fill.)


that was before the days of spectators jumping out of the stands and stabbing players in the back.

it was before the days of rufees, etc.
Water tampering prevented better w/sealed bottles.

Love Game
01-13-2009, 10:54 AM
The time has been reduced from the past when it was 30 seconds or more. This change is for the worse as the rallies have become longer now because of the quality of groundshots. Earlier with serve and volley players it could have been 25 seconds. I believe also that the smaller ATP events should have lower time limit of 20 seconds rather than grand slams. If not, it should be uniform so that the players are at ease. The quality of play would also increase when the time limit is increased.

Nadal doesnt appear to me to take much more time than others. Wonder if there are average point time stats available. Maybe it is because of his routine and him being the worlds top player, we notice it more and also because his matches are among the most watched. Djokovic does appear to take up more time for recovery between longer rallies.

If we need to take action agaisnt players, there should be a timer so that it should be easily viewable by the players and they can increase their speed if required. This could be monitored by other referees and brought to attention of main umpire. We should remove bias from this.

Excellent post! :D

come to think of it .......
what exactly is the repercusion(?) of time warning?

srinrajesh
01-13-2009, 11:12 AM
For those who believe Nadal does not take more time than other players, here's proof.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcShWPiUk38


Umpire calls score and changes it at around 1:54. Nadal does not serve until about 2:24. That's 30 seconds, 10 seconds over the mark. I was being generous too.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5U8gDeBl_w


Here's more, down triple break point, at 4:06 the score is called. He does not serve until 4:40. That's a MASSIVE delay.


There are some examples for nadal shown here but if we see the total ATP records, we would see the real stats that almost all players do violate the time at some point or the other. The ones who do not it are among the exceptions. :)

Blade0324
01-13-2009, 11:20 AM
^ Besides the examples listed in this one if you look at the second video the two points before the one mentioned he is withing normal time. So it only happens sometimes. I personal find his actions between points to be very deliberate and not excessive in any way. I'm not just standing up for Nadal as others go over the allowed time as well and I don't find it to be a problem. Personally I don't think 20 seconds is enough time between points, I find it should be about 30-35.

coloskier
01-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Being too tired after 20 seconds of rest is the price you have to pay for your game. Change your game so you won't be tired after 20 seconds.

tacou
01-13-2009, 12:28 PM
whoa hold up-- it's now come to my attention that people are counting until the player actually hits their next serve. I disagree completely.

once a player is at the service line the clock should stop. it doesn't matter if excessive ball bouncing annoys a viewer (I personally can't stand when Novak bounces 30 times) but that's part of the players routine and should not be counted towards time. their opponent is in their ready position, waiting for the serve, so what's the big deal?

Kaptain Karl
01-13-2009, 01:05 PM
once a player is at the service line the clock should stop.BZZZT!!!

No. For uniformity's sake, the clock should Start when the Ump calls the score. (This would allow for an applause delay or other exceptional events.)

The Server should make contact with his/her serve before the alloted time expires.

- KK

sureshs
01-13-2009, 01:12 PM
The basic premise is that "play shall be continuous." Toweling after every point, inspecting N balls, walking about, bouncing the ball M times, all make the play discontinuous.

A practical problem is who stops the clock. If the umpire is supposed to stop the clock the moment the serve has been struck or the serving arm goes up, he cannot pay full attention to the serve to overrule fault or foot fault calls. Seems like yet another official is needed. Or, whatever triggers the speed radar gun can also stop the clock.

ESP#1
01-13-2009, 01:22 PM
Tennis **DOES** have time limits. There are rules established that specifically state how long you have before starting the point. Problem is, the chair umps are not enforcing it. Imagine if they begin deciding to not enforce foot faults???

It's a rule, and either needs to be enforced, or done away with. The game clock idea would kill two birds with one stone.

1. It would enforce the rule>>>> without prejudice.

2. Allow the umps to still be "the nice guy", since they won't have a say in the matter.

I meant time limits as in duration of play, i thought that wouldve been obvious

Moose Malloy
01-13-2009, 01:29 PM
FYI, in the late 70s WCT events had a clock on court(it would start counting down from 30 seconds)

It didn't ring or anything when it got to 0. I think it was just put there as a detterent(I'm sure Rafa or Joker would speed up play with that there, how could they not be self conscious knowing than an entire stadium can see that number, not just the umpire)

another FYI, there was no time rule until 1978(& it was only put into effect due to excessive stalling, arguing by Nastase)

Prior to 1978, most players played very quickly(was watching an ashe-roche match from '75 recently, they were playing faster than agassi or graf)

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 01:29 PM
whoa hold up-- it's now come to my attention that people are counting until the player actually hits their next serve. I disagree completely.

once a player is at the service line the clock should stop. it doesn't matter if excessive ball bouncing annoys a viewer (I personally can't stand when Novak bounces 30 times) but that's part of the players routine and should not be counted towards time. their opponent is in their ready position, waiting for the serve, so what's the big deal?



The rule states that a player has 20 or 25 seconds to begin his service MOTION. That means he has to be in the act of beginning to swing. Ball bouncing, etc. does not count towards service motion.

ninman
01-13-2009, 02:18 PM
From my own personal observations of Nadal and Djokovic's matches they seem to take a lot longer on the big points. Federer on the other hand takes the same length of time every point. As far as players going over 20 seconds, I would say that yes most players DO break this rule, but I think the point of it is to stop obvious time wasting.

So for example if you bounce the ball 20-30 times before you serve that is obvious time wasting. If you towel off after every single freaking point, scrape the ENTIRE baseline with your foot, spend ages getting into the correct position, fix your shorts etc. All of these things are obvious time wasting, totally unnecessary actions.

If you watch players like Federer, Murray, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin etc. You'll note that all of them take the same length of time between points, and none of them waste time. In fact all of them hate time wasting, particularly Federer.

I should also say that I've seen Nadal getting time violations, but then nothing happened afterwards. So why give him a warning if they don't intend to follow it up? So he doesn't care if they give him a warning. Anyway I think the umpires should either enforce the rule, or get rid of it. There is no point in having rules if they aren't going to enforce it.

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 02:24 PM
^ Besides the examples listed in this one if you look at the second video the two points before the one mentioned he is withing normal time. So it only happens sometimes. I personal find his actions between points to be very deliberate and not excessive in any way. I'm not just standing up for Nadal as others go over the allowed time as well and I don't find it to be a problem. Personally I don't think 20 seconds is enough time between points, I find it should be about 30-35.



Not excessive? Taking 45 seconds to hit a serve is not excessive? Because that's how much time Nadal takes at times. Occasionally, I have seen him gone up to 50 seconds, especially on critical breakpoints.



I do love how conclusive video evidence all of a sudden made all the Nadal fans quiet.

tacou
01-13-2009, 02:39 PM
The rule states that a player has 20 or 25 seconds to begin his service MOTION. That means he has to be in the act of beginning to swing. Ball bouncing, etc. does not count towards service motion.

hm then I now take issue with the rule itself. I think it's a useless rule in general but once a guy gets to the service line he should be able to serve however he wants. if he needs a few seconds to prepare I don't see how the affects anyone else.

ESP#1
01-13-2009, 02:45 PM
Does it bother me as a fan? Not at all Would it bother me as a player? Maybe, but i also think if i were playing nadal i would be so exhusted i would savor every second. By no means am i trying to say he doesnt do it, i know he does, but if it is an issue the refs should take care of it, thats why they get paid and if they cant do their job hire someone that will, refs arent meant to be popular they are there to enforce the rules

Why are you gonna add a gadget cause some overpaid guy isnt doing his job? With this recession im sure they can find someone more than willing

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 03:20 PM
hm then I now take issue with the rule itself. I think it's a useless rule in general but once a guy gets to the service line he should be able to serve however he wants. if he needs a few seconds to prepare I don't see how the affects anyone else.



So Djokovic bouncing the ball 40 times on breakpoint (which he has done quite literally before) isn't annoying? OK!

tacou
01-13-2009, 03:48 PM
I guess it's annoying... but it doesn't matter what I think, it's his routine. who am I to ask an athlete to change how they play their sport?

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 04:07 PM
I guess it's annoying... but it doesn't matter what I think, it's his routine. who am I to ask an athlete to change how they play their sport?



Tennis already is a time consuming sport. It has limited TV coverage because of this. Tennis does not need Djokovic to be bouncing balls for a whole minute every time he serves. That just makes tennis matches longer, which results in even less coverage for fans like us.

dpfrazier
01-13-2009, 04:28 PM
I guess it's annoying... but it doesn't matter what I think, it's his routine. who am I to ask an athlete to change how they play their sport?
So it's OK if players take all the time they want, and do whatever they want, as part of their routine? Of course not. So when does a routine become excessive? The governing bodies of tennis have deemed that anything that takes beyond 20-25 seconds is excessive. If this is the wrong answer, then the player reps can take it up with ATP/WTA management.

You also have to consider the receiver, not just the server. It might be uncomfortable for them to have to wait so long to get the point started...

tacou
01-13-2009, 05:01 PM
I don't know what to tell you. I know the rule I'm just saying my opinion, don't try to change my opinion, try to get the rule enforced.

'cause that's where we are at; people break this rule and no one cares.

TheMusicLover
01-13-2009, 05:21 PM
'cause that's where we are at; people break this rule and no one cares.

The latter is most definitely NOT true. Many people, players, former players and knowledgeable commentators have correctly said that it's unfair towards the players that DO follow the rules accordingly. And rightly so.
One thing however still stands: it's the umpires' task to enforce the rules, and if they don't do their jobs, there's not much to do about it. Numerous 'warnings' but no real penalties aren't going to force the culprits to speed up their games...

BTW I am new here. Hi all! :)

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 05:37 PM
Oh how I would love to see Pascal Maria give Nadal a point penalty for a time violation. I know he would do it too if he knew he wouldn't lose his job over it.

TheMusicLover
01-13-2009, 05:43 PM
Oh how I would love to see Pascal Maria give Nadal a point penalty for a time violation. I know he would do it too if he knew he wouldn't lose his job over it.

Do you really think that's indeed the case? If so... that would be really bad indeed. I've never seen any an umpire act accordingly against Djoko's ball-bouncing (which, credit to him, seems to have diminished lately) either. I guess it's Animal Farm towards the top players then? :mad:

tacou
01-13-2009, 06:36 PM
The latter is most definitely NOT true. Many people, players, former players and knowledgeable commentators have correctly said that it's unfair towards the players that DO follow the rules accordingly. And rightly so.
One thing however still stands: it's the umpires' task to enforce the rules, and if they don't do their jobs, there's not much to do about it. Numerous 'warnings' but no real penalties aren't going to force the culprits to speed up their games...

BTW I am new here. Hi all! :)

by NO ONE I mean no one who can do anything about it.

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread, it's progressed as far as it can.

brb.

NamRanger
01-13-2009, 06:50 PM
Do you really think that's indeed the case? If so... that would be really bad indeed. I've never seen any an umpire act accordingly against Djoko's ball-bouncing (which, credit to him, seems to have diminished lately) either. I guess it's Animal Farm towards the top players then? :mad:



Tennis is slightly different from other sports. The ATP needs the players more than the players need the ATP.

tacou
01-13-2009, 06:56 PM
what would the players do without the ATP?

Noveson
01-13-2009, 07:33 PM
Tennis already is a time consuming sport. It has limited TV coverage because of this. Tennis does not need Djokovic to be bouncing balls for a whole minute every time he serves. That just makes tennis matches longer, which results in even less coverage for fans like us.

No it has limited coverage because the U.S. doesn't like it. Coverage here of course I mean.

Blade0324
01-14-2009, 08:18 AM
Not excessive? Taking 45 seconds to hit a serve is not excessive? Because that's how much time Nadal takes at times. Occasionally, I have seen him gone up to 50 seconds, especially on critical breakpoints.



I do love how conclusive video evidence all of a sudden made all the Nadal fans quiet.

I am not a Nadal fan in particular first off. Second I love how every time this is mentioned the amount of time he takes goes up and up. I have conceeded that he does take longer than the allowed time at some points in matches. However I still stand by the fact that I don't find it excessive. If he is basically doing the same things each time then it is predictable and not excessive. If he feels that he needs to do these things before serving he should be able to do so. I realize we are speaking just of Nadal currently but this goes for any players that take extra time, which many do. The 20 seconds is too short and needs to be added to. Someone here mentioned that the player has to be starting their act of serving by the time limit. This can be interpreted differently by different officials and thus is most likely why many don't call time violations. One could say that once the player is at the line then bouncing the ball, adjusting ones shorts, shirt etc. can be construed as the act of serving if they do it each time.

drakulie
01-14-2009, 08:26 AM
I still stand by the fact that I don't find it excessive.

What you "find" is irrelevant. **THE FACT** is that he is clearly violating the rules of tennis. Period. Until they change the rules>>> he is breaking them, and getting away with it, which is unfair to every player he plays against (who do play within the *SAME* rules). And to add, he doesn't do it once>>>> he does it dozens of times throughout the course fo the match. Imagine if he was penalized one dozen time??? That equals 3 games.

Now imagine if his opponent were allowed to serve form the service line every once in a while>>> like on a break point against him???? Would that be fair, since he isn't doing it "excessively"???


Why people try to justify playing outside of the rules is beyond me. You don't like the sport, and it's rules>> go play golf (they have a handicap system for non-comformist).

bangchu
01-14-2009, 08:32 AM
I am not a Nadal fan; however, I generally have no objection about this issue. Nadal pretty much performs the same routine every time he serves. Unlike him, the Joker is another completely story. I think the guy purposely bounces the balls 40 times before serving for a big point to break the concentration of his opponents. Imagine you are on the other side waiting to receive the serve. It would be an unpleasant experience guessing when this joker will finally put an end to the ridiculous bouncing and let the match continue. The same thing can be said to the shrieking, cheating, screaming queen Sharapova. People don't just moan for the whole hour then suddenly stop during the big moments.

vtmike
01-14-2009, 08:44 AM
I am not a Nadal fan; however, I generally have no objection about this issue. Nadal pretty much performs the same routine every time he serves. Unlike him, the Joker is another completely story. I think the guy purposely bounces the balls 40 times before serving for a big point to break the concentration of his opponents. Imagine you are on the other side waiting to receive the serve. It would be an unpleasant experience guessing when this joker will finally put an end to the ridiculous bouncing and let the match continue. The same thing can be said to the shrieking, cheating, screaming queen Sharapova. People don't just moan for the whole hour then suddenly stop during the big moments.

I've got news for you........even Nadal slows things down during big break points.......

beernutz
01-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Well said Pat Cash, I agree completely. To the idiots bashing Cash, its YOUR opinion no one gives a crap about, not Cash's.

edmondsm
01-14-2009, 10:07 AM
Well said Pat Cash, I agree completely. To the idiots bashing Cash, its YOUR opinion no one gives a crap about, not Cash's.

Quoted for truth. Nobody ever started a thread about Nadal_Freak's opinion, but look at this, 13 pages on a tennis forum about one thing Pat Cash said.

NamRanger
01-14-2009, 10:17 AM
I am not a Nadal fan in particular first off. Second I love how every time this is mentioned the amount of time he takes goes up and up. I have conceeded that he does take longer than the allowed time at some points in matches. However I still stand by the fact that I don't find it excessive. If he is basically doing the same things each time then it is predictable and not excessive. If he feels that he needs to do these things before serving he should be able to do so. I realize we are speaking just of Nadal currently but this goes for any players that take extra time, which many do. The 20 seconds is too short and needs to be added to. Someone here mentioned that the player has to be starting their act of serving by the time limit. This can be interpreted differently by different officials and thus is most likely why many don't call time violations. One could say that once the player is at the line then bouncing the ball, adjusting ones shorts, shirt etc. can be construed as the act of serving if they do it each time.



30 seconds I can maybe give, but 45 seconds (which I measured from the time the Umpire called score) is terrible. He's just wasting time. Other times when he is in complete control he takes maybe 20-25 seconds. Why is it on BP he deliberately slows down and wastes time? An extra 20+ seconds is WASTING TIME. 5, even 10 seconds is understandable. An extra 20?



And no, the rule is clear. A player must begin his service motion within 20 or 25 seconds (depending on the tournament). That means ball bouncing, shoe adjusting, etc. does not count. The service motion begins when a player begins to move upwards in order to toss the ball.

tacou
01-14-2009, 10:53 AM
Quoted for truth. Nobody ever started a thread about Nadal_Freak's opinion, but look at this, 13 pages on a tennis forum about one thing Pat Cash said.

I think it's less to do with Cash and more to do with the issue itself.

veritech
01-14-2009, 10:56 AM
Quoted for truth. Nobody ever started a thread about Nadal_Freak's opinion, but look at this, 13 pages on a tennis forum about one thing Pat Cash said.

and it's not like our opinions are featured in articles on fox sports ;)

Gorecki
01-14-2009, 01:37 PM
and it's not like our opinions are featured in articles on fox sports ;)

not entirely true... Tennis mag did sort of a refereal to one thread on this forum...

NamRanger
01-14-2009, 05:30 PM
Quoted for truth. Nobody ever started a thread about Nadal_Freak's opinion, but look at this, 13 pages on a tennis forum about one thing Pat Cash said.



I will one day.