PDA

View Full Version : Using tensioner to tighten knots? Why is it bad?


Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 04:50 PM
I'm curious as to why this is bad practice? Does it stress the anchor string?

Zhou
01-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Yes... Damages frame. Don't do it.

Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 05:12 PM
Yes... Damages frame. Don't do it.

How so? Does the tensioned string bite into the frame?

tennisfreak15347
01-10-2009, 05:15 PM
i tried it once, the string snapped. I'll never do it again.

Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 05:18 PM
i tried it once, the string snapped. I'll never do it again.

How much tension did you use?

Zhou
01-10-2009, 05:22 PM
It is just not a good idea as it stress the knot and the frame.

Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 05:24 PM
It is just not a good idea as it stress the knot and the frame.

I see. Any extra tips for tightening with the starting clamp? I've been doing it for a while, but I can't always get that extra slack out.

Zhou
01-10-2009, 05:33 PM
I see. Any extra tips for tightening with the starting clamp? I've been doing it for a while, but I can't always get that extra slack out.

Are you doing the rocking motion properly?

Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 05:49 PM
Are you doing the rocking motion properly?

I'm pretty sure I am. With polys it's worse, but I can get most of the slack out of syn guts, just not all of it (sometimes the slack outside the frame is a bit raised)

Zhou
01-10-2009, 05:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I am. With polys it's worse, but I can get most of the slack out of syn guts, just not all of it (sometimes the slack outside the frame is a bit raised)

Well some slack is inevitable but you should be able to get most of it out even with polys. If you are using the proper technique, don't worry about some slack. As long as you cannot cinch the knot up any further, it is fine.

Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 05:53 PM
Well some slack is inevitable but you should be able to get most of it out even with polys. If you are using the proper technique, don't worry about some slack. As long as you cannot cinch the knot up any further, it is fine.

Sweet, thanks for the help.

tennisfreak15347
01-10-2009, 06:23 PM
How much tension did you use?

I put it to 30lbs( I moved the tension bar with my hand, too).

big hitter
01-10-2009, 06:44 PM
When you do your last mains, and first and last cross add extra 10% to your normal tension.
That will help you prevent major tension loss when doing the knots. (Or use the knot button if you have an electronic machine)
But still you have to use the proper technique in tying the knot and there will be minimal tention loss if you add 10% to the normal tention that you are using.

Zhou
01-10-2009, 06:46 PM
If you have good proper technique, you should not even need to use the knot button.

Mansewerz
01-10-2009, 08:14 PM
If you have good proper technique, you should not even need to use the knot button.

Well, that good and proper technique isn't gonna stop that last main from losing tension, so the knot button can help.

Either way, consistency is more important.

Tim W
01-11-2009, 01:12 AM
Well, that good and proper technique isn't gonna stop that last main from losing tension, so the knot button can help.

Either way, consistency is more important.

The small tension loss will only affect the outside strings. Unless you hit with the outside strings, I wouldn''t worry.

The outside string will always feel loose because the other strings also have tension on them, making them feel tight. The outside string only has the knot, so it will feel loose.

kashgotmoney
01-11-2009, 01:34 AM
one way to tighten it is to pull as much as you can away from the knot and when its to the furthest,pulling up and towards you at the same time will tighten it

tennisxlsdk
01-11-2009, 11:47 AM
I can never get the the slack out and no one to show me the proper technique, watched the videos over and over, still can't learn, I am terrible I guess : )

Question: I don't care about the last string being loose, does this loose tension transfer to the neighboring strings? Or does the entire stringbed suffer, lose some tension as a whole because of the the three total loose string(for two piece)??

Tim W
01-11-2009, 05:40 PM
one way to tighten it is to pull as much as you can away from the knot and when its to the furthest,pulling up and towards you at the same time will tighten it

Also known as the Arcing motion or the rocking motion.

I can never get the the slack out and no one to show me the proper technique, watched the videos over and over, still can't learn, I am terrible I guess : )

Question: I don't care about the last string being loose, does this loose tension transfer to the neighboring strings? Or does the entire stringbed suffer, lose some tension as a whole because of the the three total loose string(for two piece)??

The small tension loss will only affect the few outside strings as the grommets have enough friction to prevent the small tension loss. Even if it didn't, by the time the loss was spread out over the whole stringbed, it would be a very small amount anyway.

Yulitle has a couple of vids on knot tying. Check out his Youtube channel. http://au.youtube.com/user/YULitle

Bud
01-11-2009, 05:47 PM
I'm curious as to why this is bad practice? Does it stress the anchor string?

i tried it once, the string snapped. I'll never do it again.

It is just not a good idea as it stress the knot and the frame.

Bingo.

I see. Any extra tips for tightening with the starting clamp? I've been doing it for a while, but I can't always get that extra slack out.


Pull out as much slack as you can, only. The knots on the last 2 mains and the last cross are not that important as they are the furthest from the sweetspot. That extremely minor loss of tension will not move beyond 1 string (if at all).

If you don't believe me, make a mark on the string at every grommet and watch how much those marks move over the life of you string job.

Mansewerz
01-11-2009, 06:00 PM
Bingo.




Pull out as much slack as you can, only. The knots on the last 2 mains and the last cross are not that important as they are the furthest from the sweetspot. That extremely minor loss of tension will not move beyond 1 string (if at all).

If you don't believe me, make a mark on the string at every grommet and watch how much those marks move over the life of you string job.

No, I believe you, it just sometimes feels unprofessional to have slack outside of the frame.

jim e
01-11-2009, 06:20 PM
Never use the tensionsioner to tighten, but there is no harm in increasing the tie off tension!
Very important to know how to cinch up the tie off knot tight, just practice, you will eventually get it. Even if you cinch it up good, there still is some loss.
I know on the "other", stringers forum, that SLAM stringers like Tim Strawn and R. Parnell both up the tension of the tie off strings, and commented that most tour stringers up the tie off tensions as well. I know that you do not hit with the end strings, but why not keep the tensions the most accurate as possible. I use the button that increases the tension 10%, and I also tie a good cinched up knot, as I learned the Parnell knot a long long time ago.The old timer that taught me to string many years ago, taught me that knot, and cinching it up, and it always worked just as intended.
Also, to raise the tension on an outside tie-off string is that this increase helps keep that string from bowing outward due to the offset weave of the string next to it, keeping those outside strings a bit straighter.
The USRSA e-mail I received from Greg Raven is:
"The USRSA position is that there is no need to increase the tension on the string you are tying off, but there is no harm in it."
So from this quote it seems to me that the USRSA is staying neutral on this issue, both not increasing is OK, and increasing is acceptable, so the most important thing to do is stay consistant with what you do, as there is no ruling on this topic at this point in time.

YULitle
01-11-2009, 06:46 PM
Good advice so far. This topic has been said and done. The best reason is the stress on the frame. The second best reason is that you aren't tightening the knot properly this way, regardless of what is applying the tension to the knot. If you aren't using the arcing motion, you aren't doing it well, IMO.

diredesire
01-11-2009, 10:17 PM
Another beating the dead horse post from me:


If you want to try an experiment, just grab a sacrifice frame and see for yourself what this practice will do. I don't recommend this to anyone, but for those crazy "hands-on" learners out there, you can try tensioning the knot with the tensioner, and look at the racquet along the beam, you'll see a little bit of flexing if you look closely.

This is also a terrible practice for the anchor string, it cinches up TOO TIGHT! If you take a look at the angle of the string to the tensioner, it's also pretty apparent that there IS stress on the frame. Many times the tensioner is well below the plane of the frame, and trying to tie a knot over (or under) the frame is not linear to the tensioner, so you're going to have some residual effects on the frame itself.




In short: don't do it.

Knot tying: One thing you can learn from tensioning a knot with the tensioner is: Why can the tensioner cinch up the knot, and you can't? It's the angle at which the tensioner pulls the slack out of the string. The arcing motion is useful because it fluctuates the angle of the pull, IMHO. You first get to yank the outside slack "out" because you pull it up with the initial outwards pull, and then you maintain a little bit of friction as you rock back towards yourself (and hold tension on the string). Repeating this will help you get a ton of slack out.

I find that a lot of stringers never REALLY learn how to tie good knots, and I can tie knots with little to no slack by hand. (Parnell knots)

mikeler
01-12-2009, 06:57 AM
i tried it once, the string snapped. I'll never do it again.


My first string job took 4 hours. I used the tensioner on the final knot and broke it. So I'll never do it again. I was obsessed with having the knots super tight for a while and finally I just let it go.

Bud
01-12-2009, 08:22 AM
My first string job took 4 hours. I used the tensioner on the final knot and broke it. So I'll never do it again. I was obsessed with having the knots super tight for a while and finally I just let it go.

lol! This is the biggest reason it's not recommended.

:)